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Viva Medias B's
05-01-2011, 08:11 AM
Those who want big housecleaning changes in the wake of this disasterous start need not hold their breath waiting for them to occur, I believe. Whether or not the changes should occur, and I am increasingly convinced they need to occur, Jerry Reinsdorf will play the loyalty card making both Ken Williams and Ozzie Guillen safe for the time being.

DumpJerry
05-01-2011, 08:13 AM
You're correct in that there won't be any changes viz a viz Ozzie and Kenny. The reason you cited, however, is incorrect.

SI1020
05-01-2011, 08:16 AM
It can't be that it's because they're doing such a great job. Right?

Dan H
05-01-2011, 08:48 AM
Although I'm not a big fan of Ozzie right now, I don't know if a change of management is going to help right now. The team has lost confidence and that loss only deepens their slumps.

Matt Thornton wasn't really hit that hard in 6-2 loss to Baltimore. But he couldn't finish hitters off or hold runners close to first. As frustrated as I was, I didn't boo him when he was taken out. He looked totally dejected walking off the mound and booing him isn't going to do any good. I wonder where his head is at today and what his future approach will be.

Hitters are bunting to get on because they don't think they can hit their way on. Morel has to sit on the bench because the hitting is so bad the team can't allow him to develop. Hitters get good counts against bad pitchers and don't do anything with the situation. And all of this builds on itself.

What I do think that has to change is the constant delusional thinking that surrounds this team. We keep hearing how talented the club is but they look like a last place team. I don't know what approach can be used, but someone first has to recognize that this is a team in crisis. Just saying they have ability and have to play their way out of it won't help. The White Sox have only played 28 games and they are 9 games out of first. The first change that has to come is that everyone has to face facts. Then maybe some real change can occur.

wassagstdu
05-01-2011, 10:50 AM
The first change that has to come is that everyone has to face facts. Then maybe some real change can occur.
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but my interpretation is that we need to face the fact that (barring a miracle turn-around this year) it is going to be a long time before the Sox win, or even contend consistently, again, and when they do it will not be with any of the current personnel. I think that realization dictates the unhappy course of action.

Jason82807
05-01-2011, 11:07 AM
If there is going to be a big change, I hope they focus on the farm system. It probably won't help at all this season but it will give us more options down the road. I'm not opposed to firing Ozzie, but who's the replacement? Cora?

BainesHOF
05-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Vizquel.

Red Barchetta
05-01-2011, 11:28 AM
Vizquel.

That would be "Don Kessinger - Part II". I like Vizquel, however I don't think he's ready to move into a full time manager or (gasp) player/manager role.

Firing Ozzie and moving Cora into the manager role would not really accomplish anything either IMO.

If this team crashes and burns and is way out of the race by the All-Star break, I expect Ozzie to quit. Behind the scenes, he would work out a severance package, etc. with JR allowing him to take the Marlins job and KW might be allowed, for the first time, to bring in his own manager. He and Ozzie were forced together by JR.

Regardless of who replaces Ozzie, I just hope it's someone who has a better ability to help develop players. I think Beckham is way better than his numbers and certainly could use better coaching.

Viva Medias B's
05-01-2011, 12:00 PM
Reinsdorf's reward on continued employment based on loyalty sometimes clouds his judgement (see "Krause, Jerry"). True, Reinsdorf essentially sided with Guillen in his feud last year with Williams. But, to Jerry, Kenny and Ozzie are like two brothers who sometimes bicker in the back seat of the station wagon. He'll tell them to "cut it out" but otherwise keep them. It would take continued losing, a la the post-Jordan Bulls before Derrick Rose, to convince Reinsdorf that a change would need to be made.

Viva Medias B's
05-01-2011, 12:04 PM
That would be "Don Kessinger - Part II". I like Vizquel, however I don't think he's ready to move into a full time manager or (gasp) player/manager role.

Firing Ozzie and moving Cora into the manager role would not really accomplish anything either IMO.

If this team crashes and burns and is way out of the race by the All-Star break, I expect Ozzie to quit. Behind the scenes, he would work out a severance package, etc. with JR allowing him to take the Marlins job and KW might be allowed, for the first time, to bring in his own manager. He and Ozzie were forced together by JR.

Regardless of who replaces Ozzie, I just hope it's someone who has a better ability to help develop players. I think Beckham is way better than his numbers and certainly could use better coaching.

That would be good for Ozzie, but what makes you think they would bounce Edwin Rodriguez? The Fighting Fish are 16-9 coming into today.

DirtySox
05-01-2011, 12:05 PM
If there is going to be a big change, I hope they focus on the farm system.

As they should. How they spend this year will be telling. Typically bottom of the barrel, they have a chance to go even cheaper than usual as the Sox don't possess a 1st round pick. Conversely, if there was a year to turn it around it's this year. It's one of the deepest drafts in years, and it might be the last without hard slotting. Analysts are predicting teams to go nuts on spending this year. Aside from the Sox of course.

captain54
05-01-2011, 12:21 PM
What I do think that has to change is the constant delusional thinking that surrounds this team. We keep hearing how talented the club is but they look like a last place team. I don't know what approach can be used, but someone first has to recognize that this is a team in crisis. Just saying they have ability and have to play their way out of it won't help. The White Sox have only played 28 games and they are 9 games out of first. The first change that has to come is that everyone has to face facts. Then maybe some real change can occur.

I guess the facts you are talking about facing is that maybe the talent isn't as strong as Kenny, Ozzie, the fans, etc. believed coming into 2011.

And as the season progresses and the losses pile up, the statements from Ozzie and Kenny that this is a talented team and they'll pull out of it, wear thinner. You're right, maybe this assembled bunch isn't all that talented and its time to face reality.

As far as change, when you look at it, how much worse can things get? Is a change in GM or Field manager gonna make things any worse? Maybe. But then again, what really do you have to lose by taking a chance.? You're already in last.

tsoxman
05-01-2011, 01:08 PM
I agree with the piojnt of the thread. Unforunately, I do not see any big changes on the horizon with Williams or Guillen.

As for Williams, Kenny did something in the offseason that was either unintentional, or, shear genius on his part; Right after the Sox signed Dunn, and, resigned Konerko and AJ, Kenny told the media that it was Jerry that chose to go 'all in'. While at the time this may have been construed as a defelction of credit to the Chairmain for having the stones to spend the $, could Kenny have also been a future deflection of the blame if the whole thing went south? Whether intentional or not, that revelation in my view probably bought Kenny a pass on this debacle in the eyes of his employer.

I for one think that it's time to move forward with Rick Hahn. Kick Kenny upstairs until he lands another GM gig elsewhere.

dickallen15
05-01-2011, 03:49 PM
I don't understand the kick KW upstairs argument. If you like what he's doing as the GM keep him the GM. If you don't, why do you want him around harassing the next GM?

DirtySox
05-01-2011, 03:51 PM
I don't understand the kick KW upstairs argument. If you like what he's doing as the GM keep him the GM. If you don't, why do you want him around harassing the next GM?

I'm not sure it's wanted, but more of an inevitability. JR, loyalty, et al.

Soxfest
05-01-2011, 04:22 PM
That is why Sox are the laughing stock of MLB.

thomas35forever
05-01-2011, 04:28 PM
That is why Sox are the laughing stock of MLB.
I couldn't disagree more. At least our owner isn't filing for bankruptcy or battling an ex-wife for control of the team.

Red Barchetta
05-01-2011, 05:18 PM
That would be good for Ozzie, but what makes you think they would bounce Edwin Rodriguez? The Fighting Fish are 16-9 coming into today.

That's true, depending on how well the Marlins perform this year. Ozzie could also go back to Miami, provide some baseball color commentary and perhaps wait out the Marlins depending on how well they continue to perform.

I wish the SOX were 16-9! :(:

Viva Medias B's
05-01-2011, 06:06 PM
I don't understand the kick KW upstairs argument. If you like what he's doing as the GM keep him the GM. If you don't, why do you want him around harassing the next GM?

Exactly. He'd be the White Sox equivalent of Pully.

DumpJerry
05-01-2011, 06:15 PM
That is why Sox are the laughing stock of MLB.
Really?

I think you're confusing a couple dozen WSIers with MLB. Where has it been reported that the Sox are the laughing stock of MLB? If they are, then the Twins must be making people pee in their pants non-stop.

DSpivack
05-01-2011, 06:26 PM
Really?

I think you're confusing a couple dozen WSIers with MLB. Where has it been reported that the Sox are the laughing stock of MLB? If they are, then the Twins must be making people pee in their pants non-stop.

The White Sox have the worst record in baseball... besides the Twins. What a bizarre start to the season.

sunofgold
05-01-2011, 07:08 PM
If we continue to struggle, management will trade players to cut payroll. We really could use some more young players.

Who has trade value and you would want to trade? Trade Quentin to open RF for Viciedo? Or trade Viciedo (wouldn't be much of a payroll saver)

Possibly, a team might need a catcher. AJ?

Starting pitching: Buehrle or Jackson?

mcsoxfan
05-01-2011, 07:46 PM
I couldn't disagree more. At least our owner isn't filing for bankruptcy or battling an ex-wife for control of the team.

No, his team just owns one of the worst records in baseball with a 130 million payroll and an insulting marketing slogan. I don't understand you Reinsdorf apologists unless you're related to him but as far as I'm concerned any owner, managing partner, board chairman or whatever he is operates in no less than the third largest baseball market in the known universe tells me he's "All In", my response is well that's my minimum expectation for EVERY SEASON.

So, his incompetent management team goes out and spends all this money on projects, other teams rejects and would be lightening in a bottle ala Ellis Burks who started all of that.

The Chicago American League Ballclub is a freaking joke.

Lip Man 1
05-01-2011, 07:56 PM
MC:

Burks hit .275 with 17 home runs, 71 RBI's and he played a good right field.

I'll take 15 of those thank you very much.

Lip

russ99
05-01-2011, 07:59 PM
While I agree that Ozzie and Kenny shouldn't be fired until after the season, if we can't turn this around, but something has to be done.

I'm almost to the point where it may be OK to cut both Walker and Cooper loose and replace them with Jeff Manto and Bobby Thigpen.

Daver
05-01-2011, 08:07 PM
While I agree that Ozzie and Kenny shouldn't be fired until after the season, if we can't turn this around, but something has to be done.

I'm almost to the point where it may be OK to cut both Walker and Cooper loose and replace them with Jeff Manto and Bobby Thigpen.

I find it difficult to believe that Thigpen would get the nod over Kirk Champion, but I have little doubt that Don Cooper will be in a White Sox uniform till he chooses not to be, if not he would have been gone after his first stint as the White Sox pitching coach.

TDog
05-01-2011, 08:12 PM
...

So, his incompetent management team goes out and spends all this money on projects, other teams rejects and would be lightening in a bottle ala Ellis Burks who started all of that.

The Chicago American League Ballclub is a freaking joke.

If you're suggesting the White Sox shouldn't have signed Dunn, I was impressed with the way you argued that in February. Oh, that's right. Everyone who responded to my Dunn posts used wrote that I was some sort of an expletive idiot for suggesting such a thing. The language filter kept me from knowing the specific expletives, and that's really a good thing. But I wouldn't argue that the organization is a joke because they did a couple of things in the offseason that pleased fans but didn't impress me.

Honestly, I don't know what projects you're talking about. The big off-season contracts went to Dunn and Konerko.

This team could use an Ellis Burks or two.

dickallen15
05-01-2011, 08:26 PM
No, his team just owns one of the worst records in baseball with a 130 million payroll and an insulting marketing slogan. I don't understand you Reinsdorf apologists unless you're related to him but as far as I'm concerned any owner, managing partner, board chairman or whatever he is operates in no less than the third largest baseball market in the known universe tells me he's "All In", my response is well that's my minimum expectation for EVERY SEASON.

So, his incompetent management team goes out and spends all this money on projects, other teams rejects and would be lightening in a bottle ala Ellis Burks who started all of that.

The Chicago American League Ballclub is a freaking joke.

That is true, technically JR and his lackeys have always stated that every dime that came in went out to player payroll, so they would be "all in" every year. Now JR says they made a little here a little there if they lose money this year with this bloated payroll they will be fine, but they won't lose money again.

DSpivack
05-01-2011, 08:38 PM
That is true, technically JR and his lackeys have always stated that every dime that came in went out to player payroll, so they would be "all in" every year. Now JR says they made a little here a little there if they lose money this year with this bloated payroll they will be fine, but they won't lose money again.

No, his team just owns one of the worst records in baseball with a 130 million payroll and an insulting marketing slogan. I don't understand you Reinsdorf apologists unless you're related to him but as far as I'm concerned any owner, managing partner, board chairman or whatever he is operates in no less than the third largest baseball market in the known universe tells me he's "All In", my response is well that's my minimum expectation for EVERY SEASON.

So, his incompetent management team goes out and spends all this money on projects, other teams rejects and would be lightening in a bottle ala Ellis Burks who started all of that.

The Chicago American League Ballclub is a freaking joke.

The payroll is $140 million. What more do you want? If team fails, what's the next argument, that it should have been lower?

The blame lies on the man acquiring the players and identifying the talent, the man coaching that talent, and the players themselves for underperforming.

And "All In" is a marketing slogan, one that every team uses to try and get butts in the seats every year. How you then go and cite that as evidence for the owner's failures or how that is somehow an example of the owner's philosophy I don't know.

The 'JR is cheap' meme is tired nonsense.

A. Cavatica
05-01-2011, 08:53 PM
The 'JR is cheap' meme is tired nonsense.

Agreed, I thought he might have held off on firing Guillen because he didn't want to eat the rest of the contract, but the team payroll disproves it.

JR is too loyal to certain underperforming employees, which makes him a good person to work for or a sucker, depending on your point of view.

SlowMotion
05-01-2011, 08:56 PM
Agreed, I thought he might have held off on firing Guillen because he didn't want to eat the rest of the contract, but the team payroll disproves it.

JR is too loyal to certain underperforming employees, which makes him a good person to work for or a sucker, depending on your point of view.

Both at the same time.

DSpivack
05-01-2011, 09:07 PM
Agreed, I thought he might have held off on firing Guillen because he didn't want to eat the rest of the contract, but the team payroll disproves it.

JR is too loyal to certain underperforming employees, which makes him a good person to work for or a sucker, depending on your point of view.

Stubborn and loyal to a fault is the way I look at it. Both a bad and good thing.

RCWHITESOX
05-01-2011, 11:50 PM
The blame should be placed first and foremost on the players that are underperforming. There the ones not delivering the clutch hits there the ones that are fielding and running bases like little league-rs There the ones who can't hold leads and are pitching poorly. Better start looking in the mirror boys because you lead both leagues in losses . Sox fever catch it.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2011, 11:17 AM
RC:

That's true but it's also the managers job to put them in the best positions to succeed. As many have posted over the past few weeks there have been inconsistencies with the way Ozzie has been doing things this year, that have caused many to wonder what's going on.

And you still have the nagging question of if the Sox players are simply "baseball" - stupid regarding fundamentals or if the current coaching staff is simply incapable of teaching them in a way that gets through to the players.

The Sox have had a lot of players come through the doors since the end of the 2006 season, can they all be "baseball" - stupid?

There is a lot of fault on both sides in play here but the old rule, fair or unfairly applies, you can't fire 25 players.

Lip

ShooterMcGavin
05-02-2011, 02:17 PM
If the Sox fire Guillen, I'd like to see the Sox investigate Sandy Alomar Jr. as a potential manager of the team.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2011, 05:52 PM
There's also this factor. I was told this by a media person and it at least is a possibility.

They said the Sox aren't going to make major changes because right now at JR's stage in life, he simply doesn't want to deal with having to hire a new GM and or field manager.

That doesn't make sense to me given the financial investment but who knows for sure, maybe he really doesn't want the hassle right now for however long he's still going to own the club.

Lip

DSpivack
05-02-2011, 11:40 PM
There's also this factor. I was told this by a media person and it at least is a possibility.

They said the Sox aren't going to make major changes because right now at JR's stage in life, he simply doesn't want to deal with having to hire a new GM and or field manager.

That doesn't make sense to me given the financial investment but who knows for sure, maybe he really doesn't want the hassle right now for however long he's still going to own the club.

Lip

That would seem to me that he's either considering selling soon, or turning the ball over to his son.

rcescato
05-03-2011, 12:41 AM
I guess the facts you are talking about facing is that maybe the talent isn't as strong as Kenny, Ozzie, the fans, etc. believed coming into 2011.

And as the season progresses and the losses pile up, the statements from Ozzie and Kenny that this is a talented team and they'll pull out of it, wear thinner. You're right, maybe this assembled bunch isn't all that talented and its time to face reality.

As far as change, when you look at it, how much worse can things get? Is a change in GM or Field manager gonna make things any worse? Maybe. But then again, what really do you have to lose by taking a chance.? You're already in last.


i know we suck but negativity is real bad. I cant stand to watch it but i work almost every night so i dont have too. as bad as we are the indians are not that good. 18-6 since we kicked there ass for 2 games really? 12-0 at home. maybe they do finish 79-2 at home but I dont think so. We ill get back in this thing. I am still more worried bout the twins. So lets beat them the next 2 days and I will feel better.

Jim Shorts
05-03-2011, 08:11 AM
That would seem to me that he's either considering selling soon, or turning the ball over to his son.

Hasn't it been reported that his son doesnt want anything to do with the team?

doublem23
05-03-2011, 08:12 AM
Hasn't it been reported that his son doesnt want anything to do with the team?

Yeah, I thought his son was only interested in the Bulls, but there could easily be someone else in the ownership team that's interested in becoming Chairman in the not too distant future.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2011, 10:33 AM
Spivack:

The latest info publicly that I know of on this took place in 2004 when JR appeared on Chicago Tonight on Channel 11. Bob Sirott asked him about the future and JR specifically said that no one in his family was interested in running the Sox when he is gone.

I have also been told by an individual (no not Roland Hemond) who worked for both Veeck and current ownership that for years JR's wife has actually been telling him to sell and get out but JR doesn't want to (at least at the time I was told this and that was before they won the World Series.)

I have no idea nor have I heard anything that indicated how long JR wants to stay in the game, I suspect the comment from the media person to me was based more on his age 75+ than an indication something soon might be happening although logic says at that age anything can happen and happen quickly.

Lip

Hitmen77
05-03-2011, 11:20 AM
Spivack:

The latest info publicly that I know of on this took place in 2004 when JR appeared on Chicago Tonight on Channel 11. Bob Sirott asked him about the future and JR specifically said that no one in his family was interested in running the Sox when he is gone.

I have also been told by an individual (no not Roland Hemond) who worked for both Veeck and current ownership that for years JR's wife has actually been telling him to sell and get out but JR doesn't want to (at least at the time I was told this and that was before they won the World Series.)

I have no idea nor have I heard anything that indicated how long JR wants to stay in the game, I suspect the comment from the media person to me was based more on his age 75+ than an indication something soon might be happening although logic says at that age anything can happen and happen quickly.

Lip

I wonder if JR will give any hints to his future plans on his interview with Rich King that will air on WGN this Saturday?

kufram
05-03-2011, 11:42 AM
I can understand a guy in JR's position because I'm in a similar one myself although not quite on that scale. It isn't easy for everyone to make decisions that effect other people's lives, especially people who are friends and are part of your family. It may be that JR knows a bigger decision is not too far away and it will be easier for him to make one momentous decision, in time, rather than face many more very painful ones that will inevitably lead to having to make even more decisions about things that he may care about less in the future.

He's the chairman. He's the boss. I'm not saying I like the position the team is in right now but I can understand JR sticking with what he has for now.

captain54
05-03-2011, 11:56 AM
i know we suck but negativity is real .

You can put any kind of positive spin on it you want, the fact remains there's no fun in watching bad baseball day after day.

I've been a Sox fan for a long time and enjoy following everything about the Sox, and want them to win and succeed as much as, if not more than everyone else. I'm not gonna sit there though, and pretend like everything is great, that this is just a little bump in the road and it'll all get straightened out, blah blah blah. That being said, its totally possible that they could turn it around, its just that we're starting to see a pattern here and it never seems to end up going the Sox way come October.