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View Full Version : *Official* Colon was pitching Therapy Thread


thomas35forever
04-27-2011, 09:20 PM
Hear that? Bartolo ****ing Colon.

veeter
04-27-2011, 09:21 PM
Gordon is absolutely lost at the plate.

WhiteSoxOnly
04-27-2011, 09:22 PM
Can't win 'em all.

rdwj
04-27-2011, 09:22 PM
So sick of this crap every day. Something needs to be done - soon.

ChicagoG19
04-27-2011, 09:22 PM
I can't believe we are making Bartolo Colon look good. This offense needs to snap out of the quickly. The pitching has been much better of late.

VMSNS
04-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Colon - 8 IP, 7 hits, 1 ER, 1 BB, and 6 Ks against our Sox.

All In!

Can we fire Walker now?

...please? Pretty please?

LoveYourSuit
04-27-2011, 09:24 PM
Buehrle pitched well on paper, but putting this anemic offense down 3-0 so early basically put an end to this night.

That's how pathetic this offense has been.

JB98
04-27-2011, 09:24 PM
The Sox have scored six runs in their last five games.

Only Walker thinks this team is swinging the bats good. Sabathia tomorrow. Yay.

hi im skot
04-27-2011, 09:25 PM
Buehrle should have thrown a shut out.

Shame on him.

veeter
04-27-2011, 09:27 PM
When you're throwing Pierre, Omar, Beckham and a horribly slumping Alex Rios out there, it's not hard to beat our Sox.

Domeshot17
04-27-2011, 09:28 PM
He really battled back, but with the little momentum we have, for Burls to give up that homer and the 3 spot in the first, it sucked the air out. I am not saying he should win every game we score 1 run, but we needed better than that.

Offense has no leadership. We need a guy who is capable of hitting .300 (not Pierre). We don't have that at any other position.

southsideirish71
04-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Gordon is absolutely lost at the plate.

Well here is his swing before the sox "fixed" his mechanics.

http://www.baseball-intellect.com/Articles/gordon-beckham-swing.html

LoveYourSuit
04-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Buehrle should have thrown a shut out.

Shame on him.


Well, letting the team down early 3-0 under the circumstances sure didn't help.

guillensdisciple
04-27-2011, 09:30 PM
Gordon Beckham sucks balls, the love for him has to disappear.

This team sucks balls, but it's not our hitting coach.

Soxman219
04-27-2011, 09:31 PM
YOU KNOW..........

SOMETIMES........

YOU JUST GOTTA.....

:tiphat:

thomas35forever
04-27-2011, 09:31 PM
Buehrle should have thrown a shut out.

Shame on him.
At least he kept them in the game. Blame the offense for not showing up (again).

LoveYourSuit
04-27-2011, 09:32 PM
Positive note is the bullpen continues to pitch well.

Now if we can start handing them more leads late would be nice.

LongLiveFisk
04-27-2011, 09:32 PM
At least he kept them in the game. Blame the offense for not showing up (again).

Yep. I'd hate to be a starting pitcher for the White Sox right now.

soltrain21
04-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Fire Walker.

LITTLE NELL
04-27-2011, 09:35 PM
After last nights heroics I thought we might actually sweep NY, come home and beat the Orioles Fri and Sat and get to .500 for April.
Oh well, back to the drawing board.

palehozenychicty
04-27-2011, 09:35 PM
Can't be losing to Bartolo. Again, the Sox had chances in this game and never took advantage. Then again, the Yanks haven't hit well either. Still. :angry:

veeter
04-27-2011, 09:38 PM
Well here is his swing before the sox "fixed" his mechanics.

http://www.baseball-intellect.com/Articles/gordon-beckham-swing.html I'm not sure if his swing has changed that much. They messed with his hands a little this year, but it looks the same to me. His problem is mental. He takes a lot of good pitches. When he does swing at a good pitch, he fouls it off. His last at bat was like he just didn't want to strike out. So he flailed at the first pitched and hit it 40 feet. It is possible he's, dare I say, a bust. But he needs help with his head.

JB98
04-27-2011, 09:39 PM
He really battled back, but with the little momentum we have, for Burls to give up that homer and the 3 spot in the first, it sucked the air out. I am not saying he should win every game we score 1 run, but we needed better than that.

Offense has no leadership. We need a guy who is capable of hitting .300 (not Pierre). We don't have that at any other position.

Konerko hit .312 last year and he's hitting .316 last year.

The problem is everyone except Paulie and TCQ are hopeless. It's hard to win when only two guys are capable of putting a good swing on a ball.

Hitmen77
04-27-2011, 09:46 PM
Konerko hit .312 last year and he's hitting .316 last year.

The problem is everyone except Paulie and TCQ are hopeless. It's hard to win when only two guys are capable of putting a good swing on a ball.

It's a good thing for Walker that the hitting coach is completely unaccountable for yet another year of hitting malaise.

Was anyone here really all that surprised when the Sox failed to score after loading the bases with nobody out?

JB98
04-27-2011, 09:48 PM
It's a good thing for Walker that the hitting coach is completely unaccountable for yet another year of hitting malaise.

Was anyone here really all that surprised when the Sox failed to score after loading the bases with nobody out?

You knew that inning would fail after Beckham struck out looking.

Soxfest
04-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Bad loss to Colonstomy:angry:

southsideirish71
04-27-2011, 09:50 PM
I'm not sure if his swing has changed that much. They messed with his hands a little this year, but it looks the same to me. His problem is mental. He takes a lot of good pitches. When he does swing at a good pitch, he fouls it off. His last at bat was like he just didn't want to strike out. So he flailed at the first pitched and hit it 40 feet. It is possible he's, dare I say, a bust. But he needs help with his head.

His hands are in a similar position. His stance is different. His load mechanism looks different.

Sox35th
04-27-2011, 09:51 PM
This team is a joke!! Unreal

The only person who is happy would be my wife....now knowing I won't
be spending time watching this sh.. everynight!!

Big Hurt so good
04-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Guys, didn't you hear? Bartolo Colon is a Cy Young candidate.... we just keep facing too many amazing pitchers, how can we be expected to hit?

On a serious note, lost in the two prior wins is that the offense still wasn't doing much of anything

ChiSoxGirl
04-27-2011, 09:53 PM
YOU KNOW..........

SOMETIMES........

YOU JUST GOTTA.....

:tiphat:

:gah: At the end of the broadcast, D.J. mentioned that the Sox just have to "tip their cap" to Colon tonight. :whatever:

LITTLE NELL
04-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Hard to score runs when your leadoff man can't get on base. OBP of .297

tstrike2000
04-27-2011, 09:55 PM
Offense still missing that bravado.

guillensdisciple
04-27-2011, 09:56 PM
:gah: At the end of the broadcast, D.J. mentioned that the Sox just have to "tip their cap" to Colon tonight. :whatever:

Our entire franchise is a joke.

Lip Man 1
04-27-2011, 10:12 PM
Bartolo ****ing Colon????????????????

Is this some kind of a joke?

12th time in 13 games the Sox have scored three runs or less.

4th time this season the Sox lost when allowing three runs or less.

Yet Greg Walker thinks everything is fine? :?:

Hard luck Buehrle again.

Lip

ChiSoxGirl
04-27-2011, 10:15 PM
Bartolo ****ing Colon????????????????

Is this some kind of a joke?

12th time in 13 games the Sox have scored three runs or less.

4th time this season the Sox lost when allowing three runs or less.

Yet Greg Walker thinks everything is fine? :?:

Hard luck Buehrle again.

Lip

This post is outstanding.

KMcMahon817
04-27-2011, 10:15 PM
Meh. Only caught the 8th and 9th inning on mlb.tv at the library. Hard to believe Colon shut our Sox down like that, I was sort of expecting a break out game offensively. But, I did check gameday periodically and it had Colon hitting 96 with his fastball pretty consistently. Pretty sure he was only throwing in the high 80's with a few fastball's hitting 90 when he was with the Sox.

Some of you guys crack me up. If someone would have told you the Sox would win 2 of the first three from the Yanks at their place coming into this series, you would have taken it in a heartbeat. We're in fine shape. Win tomorrow and we're in better shape. It's a long season...just have to get the bats alive and get back to winning series.

TDog
04-27-2011, 10:18 PM
When you're throwing Pierre, Omar, Beckham and a horribly slumping Alex Rios out there, it's not hard to beat our Sox.

Yet, the first-place-in-the-East Yankees have only won once in three nights this week at home against the anemic White Sox. It was so not easy to beat the Sox Monday and Tuesday night that the White Sox lost. I doubt the Yankees believed it was easy to beat the Sox tonight. MLB.com said Colon was hitting the mid-90s, which was much harder than he was throwing with the Sox.

The Sox outhit the Yankees tonight. Unfortunately, half the hits came in the first inning. The difference in this game isn't that the Sox don't have any offense. The difference tonight was that the Yankees' only it with a runner in scoring position was a home run while the only White Sox hit with a runner in scoring position was a single.

Ultimately, the difference in the game was the Sox not scoring in the second after loading the bases with none out. Some people don't believe the RBI stat is important, but RBIs define your offense.

Pierre, once again, ended an inning with runners in scoring position. Konerko ended two innings with double plays, pretty much nullifying Quentin's strong night. But a bad night from Konerko isn't a reason for concern.

One reason for optimism for the offense is that for the second game out of three in New York designated hitter wasn't a black hole in the Sox lineup. Dunn looks like he might be coming around.

The biggest problem right now seems to be Pierre. Ostensibly his job is to get on base, but in an American League lineup, hitters at the top of the order will get a lot of RBI chances. Pierre has neither been reaching base nor driving in runs. If he is gong to continue to lead the league in being caught stealing, his successful stolen bases are irrelevant.

Lip Man 1
04-27-2011, 10:25 PM
McMahon:

Sabathia, a Sox killer from back in the day with Cleveland goes tomorrow. Odds are not good.

And winning 2 in New York doesn't change the fact they lost 6 of the previous 7 does it?

Lip

SoxSpeed22
04-27-2011, 10:33 PM
I'm okay with winning 2 in New York. It's disappointing to let Colon do that. Then again, when only 2 out of your 9 players are hitting ball, what do you expect? CC might have a field day tomorrow.
I don't know what the hell's up with Beckham. He isn't seeing the ball well at all.

LongLiveFisk
04-27-2011, 10:34 PM
:gah: At the end of the broadcast, D.J. mentioned that the Sox just have to "tip their cap" to Colon tonight. :whatever:

That phrase is so tired already. At least use a different ****ing phrase once in a while, people. :rolleyes:

KnightSox
04-27-2011, 10:38 PM
Any time you are ready offense...

BringHomeDaBacon
04-27-2011, 10:39 PM
You knew that inning would fail after Beckham struck out looking.


TWO players that can't hit the ball out of the infield hitting back to back. It's ****ing pathetic. You couldn't do the opposing pitcher any more favors when making out the lineup card short of letting the pitcher bat.

Boondock Saint
04-27-2011, 10:47 PM
This team disgusts me.

captain54
04-27-2011, 10:48 PM
We're in fine shape. Win tomorrow and we're in better shape. It's a long season...just have to get the bats alive and get back to winning series.

Really.....??? Greg Walker, is that you?

From here on out the Sox have to do more than winning series...they need to put together streaks of consecutive wins to offset the consecutive losses from the past couple of weeks and the losing 10 of 11 or whatever it was...all the while hoping four teams in front of you play worse than you.

canOcorn
04-27-2011, 11:02 PM
Hard to score runs when your leadoff man can't get on base. OBP of .297


And gets picked off/caught stealing more times than he can successfully steal a base.

Don't worry, we'll trade Dunn for Nate Schierholtz and all will be good.

sullythered
04-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Did anybody here that's ripping the Sox for not hitting today actually watch the game. Colon pitched phenomenally. 95 mph moving fastball. Changing locations, hitting his spots, he was awesome. Stop saying "it's Bartolo Colon, he's bad, yada yada."

ChiSoxGal85
04-27-2011, 11:16 PM
Except for the first inning, Buerhle did a fine job. I was expecting a blowout after that. Kudos to him for keeping the Sox in the game. But after the Yanks put up the 3 spot, the Sox come back and load the bases with no outs and CAN'T SCORE??!!!!
:gah:

All in all, though, I'm not crying the blues over this loss. The Sox already at worst split this series, and before Monday I'd written off these 4 games as losses. It would make my week to see the Sox scrape out a win against CC tomorrow.

JB98
04-27-2011, 11:16 PM
Did anybody here that's ripping the Sox for not hitting today actually watch the game. Colon pitched phenomenally. 95 mph moving fastball. Changing locations, hitting his spots, he was awesome. Stop saying "it's Bartolo Colon, he's bad, yada yada."

Everyone pitches "phenomenally" against the Sox. The Sox hitters no longer enjoy the benefit of the doubt from the fans. Nor should they.

Lip Man 1
04-27-2011, 11:23 PM
Just read Gonzo's Sox Mailbag at the Tribune site. He laid the blame for this on the players.

I understand the fact that players have to be held accountable but keep this in mind.

Over the past five seasons the Sox have brought in a bunch of different players. Yet one constant is that when they get to the Sox they get off to a slow start. The other constant is that the manager and the coaching staff have remained intact. Coincidence?

Either all these players of different talents, ages and from different organizations forget how to hit in April when they come to Chicago or there is another dynamic taking place.

The odds are too long that this is entirely the players fault.

I'm convinced that the one main reason the Sox have started slow in 2007 (and had their worst record in almost 20 years), 2008 (remember Ozzie "calling out" Kenny and saying he better get him some players?), 2009 (which the Sox couldn't sustain after Buehrle's perfect game because they were in a "catch-up" mode), 2010 (where they were out of gas after a furious mid season run, by August because again they were in a "catch-up" mode) and this year is because Ozzie claims spring training games are "meaningless" and he continues to play minor league cannon fodder up through the last week.

Here's one example. Opening Day when the Sox relief pitchers got rocked, Bill Melton on the postgame said they needed more work.

That comment immediately grabbed my attention and I thought, "right... not the double A pitchers, not the Triple A pitchers but the big league guys. They can't get that throwing on the side while kids are pitching their innings.

Ditto for the hitters, they need the at-bats not the minor league roster fillers.

Five years in a row now, with a lot of different players... yet when the season starts nobody can hit, nobody can pitch, nobody can field and the fundamentals are awful.

It's not just the players folks, in my opinion.

Lip

sullythered
04-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Everyone pitches "phenomenally" against the Sox. The Sox hitters no longer enjoy the benefit of the doubt from the fans. Nor should they.

I'm not defending the Sox offense, in general. I'm just saying anybody with eyes could tell you that Colon was filthy tonight.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-27-2011, 11:26 PM
Tough loss, but at least it was a close game. Sox had their opportunity and blew it in the second. I'd bet that doesn't happen a few months from now, but with the lineup struggling, no excuses for not getting it done when that big of an opportunity resents itself. And as for Colon, he really did have nice movement on his pitches. Definitely not the pitcher the Sox had a few years ago. He did get some gift calls from that ump, but so did Buehrle, so I guess I could live with that. A loss is a loss, but at least it was within reach as opposed to a blowout. Hell, holding that Yankees lineup to 5 runs over 3 games in New York, impressive any way you look at it.

VMSNS
04-27-2011, 11:30 PM
Did anybody here that's ripping the Sox for not hitting today actually watch the game. Colon pitched phenomenally. 95 mph moving fastball. Changing locations, hitting his spots, he was awesome. Stop saying "it's Bartolo Colon, he's bad, yada yada."

Yeah, he had good movement on his fastball...but that was literally the only pitch he threw all night. There was maybe a handful of changeups in there, but his pitching wasn't so overpowering that it warranted a 8 IP/7 H/1 ER/6 K line against us. And he only touched 94/95MPH a few times. He was in the low 90's for most of the game, it's not like he was constantly throwing real hard. But hey, if you want to keep "tipping your cap", that's fine by me.

The bottom line is the Sox offense blows, and it's magnified when we get dominated by guys like Chatwood, Davis, and Colon. It needs to stop immediately, and until someone is held accountable, be it players or coaches or both, then it's never going to change. This team has way too much talent to consistently succumb to garbage play like this.

sunofgold
04-27-2011, 11:40 PM
This is more of the Colon from the early 2000s. If he is healthy, Colon knows how to pitch. Still we had him in a couple jams and couldn't get the big hit.

Wouldn't mind seeing Lillibridge getting a few starts in a row at 2B and/or CF. Might as well give Teahen a couple starts at 3B b/c he actually has been hitting well. Then, put in a better defensive lineup at the end of the game IF (big IF) we have the lead.

Cannot complain about the pitching especially against a solid Yankees lineup.

Lip Man 1
04-27-2011, 11:42 PM
Interesting story on the Sox inability to steal bases and inability to throw anybody out. In other words more fundamentals they are awful at:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0428-bits-white-sox-yankees-ch20110427,0,5927779.story

Ozzie naturally with a glib reply that does nothing to answer the problem.

(I guess it's all the players fault)


Lip

slavko
04-27-2011, 11:50 PM
Yeah, he had good movement on his fastball...but that was literally the only pitch he threw all night. There was maybe a handful of changeups in there, but his pitching wasn't so overpowering that it warranted a 8 IP/7 H/1 ER/6 K line against us. And he only touched 94/95MPH a few times. He was in the low 90's for most of the game, it's not like he was constantly throwing real hard. But hey, if you want to keep "tipping your cap", that's fine by me.

90+% fastballs is what Colon does. But they used to average 95 MPH. We made him look good. The offense is in the "Good For What Ails You" category for opponents, but it didn't start out that way. It got that way when the defense and bullpen couldn't close out games and the offense started pressing.

JB98
04-27-2011, 11:55 PM
90+% fastballs is what Colon does. But they used to average 95 MPH. We made him look good. The offense is in the "Good For What Ails You" category for opponents, but it didn't start out that way. It got that way when the defense and bullpen couldn't close out games and the offense started pressing.

That may be true. If it is, shame on this team for being so soft mentally.

I guess these guys are all delicate little flowers who crack at the first sign of adversity.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-27-2011, 11:57 PM
Interesting story on the Sox inability to steal bases and inability to throw anybody out. In other words more fundamentals they are awful at:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0428-bits-white-sox-yankees-ch20110427,0,5927779.story

Ozzie naturally with a glib reply that does nothing to answer the problem.

(I guess it's all the players fault)


Lip


In other words, between all the caught stealings and bunts they've given away almost a full game worth of outs already.

ShooterMcGavin
04-28-2011, 12:03 AM
Buehrle let the Yankees score 3 runs early, but shut them down the rest of the way, giving the Sox a good chance at victory. This offense is still mired in an embarrasing slump.

Tough loss.

ShooterMcGavin
04-28-2011, 12:08 AM
Interesting story on the Sox inability to steal bases and inability to throw anybody out. In other words more fundamentals they are awful at:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0428-bits-white-sox-yankees-ch20110427,0,5927779.story

Ozzie naturally with a glib reply that does nothing to answer the problem.

(I guess it's all the players fault)


Lip

This topic merits its own thread.

The Sox are 16 of 30 in stolen bases, but opponents have been successful in 19 of 21 attempts.

"If they don't want them to run, keep them off the bases," Guillen said.

Uh, Ozzeroo, you do understand it's unrealistic strategy to expect your pitchers to keep every batter from reaching base, right?

captain54
04-28-2011, 12:18 AM
Over the past five seasons the Sox have brought in a bunch of different players. Yet one constant is that when they get to the Sox they get off to a slow start. The other constant is that the manager and the coaching staff have remained intact. Coincidence?



Bingo... In addition, all these bunches of players handpicked by KW and Co. seem to be the most inconsistent bunch I believe I've ever seen...

so, taking it one step further, if indeed you DO put the blame squarely on the players, as a GM, isn't it your job to acquire players that can get the job done, whether it be April, June, July, September or October? Maybe this organizations eye for talent is not as keen as it needs to be.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 12:20 AM
This topic merits its own thread.

The Sox are 16 of 30 in stolen bases, but opponents have been successful in 19 of 21 attempts.

"If they don't want them to run, keep them off the bases," Guillen said.

Uh, Ozzeroo, you do understand it's unrealistic strategy to expect your pitchers to keep every batter from reaching base, right?

Well, Ozzie loves Ozzieball - it's just unfortunate that aside from 2005, it's only the other team that is successful at it.

BainesHOF
04-28-2011, 12:21 AM
Walker better not be the only one to go. Ozzie and Beckham, get in line behind No. 29.

I'd also think long and hard about Cooper. He's done a lot of good work, but you have to wonder how much imput he had in getting the bullpen "ready." And also why his pitchers haven't held anyone close to first and second base for years. It's inexcusable why this Little League B.S. has been allowed to go on for so long. Why hasn't Kenny Williams insisted that this be corrected? I think this issue speaks to the arrogance of those in charge in the organization. It's pathetic that the team thinks it's beneath itself to hold runners close to the bag.

Lip Man 1
04-28-2011, 12:32 AM
Baines:

But if you listen to the manager and the coaching staff all this is worked on consistently in spring training LOL

Lip

Mohoney
04-28-2011, 02:29 AM
I wish Mark Buehrle didn't suck, and I wish we could score more than 1 run against Fatty Colon.

Way to kill the momentum of winning 2 in the Bronx.

WhiteSox5187
04-28-2011, 03:09 AM
This topic merits its own thread.

The Sox are 16 of 30 in stolen bases, but opponents have been successful in 19 of 21 attempts.

"If they don't want them to run, keep them off the bases," Guillen said.

Uh, Ozzeroo, you do understand it's unrealistic strategy to expect your pitchers to keep every batter from reaching base, right?

But it's not unrealistic to ask your pitchers to keep an eye on the runners. The only guy who does a good job at curtailing a team's running game is Buerhle. No one else even seems to bother really, Konerko might not be able to steal a base off our guys, but I bet Quentin could run and be successful with guys like Floyd and Jackson on the mound. That's just the way it is with our pitchers.

As for the game, I didn't watch it (and thank God for that), but from the clips I saw, Bartolo looked nasty. This isn't like Luke Hoechevar having a good outing against, Bartolo looked legitimately nasty. But still, he's Bartolo Colon and hasn't been good for six years. It's a tall order to try to eek out a win tomorrow, but hopefully we can.

kufram
04-28-2011, 03:28 AM
I hope calling a pitcher that just stopped your offense fatty and other derogatory terms makes posters feel better. It certainly shows no class whatsoever.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 04:57 AM
Considering how the last week or so has gone, the fact that we, at worst, will split a 4-game series in the Bronx is pretty good, but ****, we have got to start hitting.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 05:01 AM
I wish Mark Buehrle didn't suck, and I wish we could score more than 1 run against Fatty Colon.

Way to kill the momentum of winning 2 in the Bronx.

3 runs in 7 innings against the best offense in baseball is good enough to be in anyone's starting rotation.

ShooterMcGavin
04-28-2011, 05:04 AM
But it's not unrealistic to ask your pitchers to keep an eye on the runners.

That's not what Guillen said. Guillen stated, "If they don't want them to run, keep them off the bases."

In 2011, opponents have been successful in 19 of 21 stolen base attempts against Guillen's White Sox. Guillen's answer to that is for White Sox pitchers to never allow a batter to reach base.

kufram
04-28-2011, 06:25 AM
Considering how the last week or so has gone, the fact that we, at worst, will split a 4-game series in the Bronx is pretty good, but ****, we have got to start hitting.


Agreed. IF the pitching and defense continues the recent performances and the hitting comes round to score HALF the runs it showed it can score in the first few games, the standings will soon turn around.

I hoped that the hitting would start last night but maybe Colon was that good. Now I hope the hitters will be focused against Sabathia.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 07:04 AM
Agreed. IF the pitching and defense continues the recent performances and the hitting comes round to score HALF the runs it showed it can score in the first few games, the standings will soon turn around.

I hoped that the hitting would start last night but maybe Colon was that good. Now I hope the hitters will be focused against Sabathia.

I got home really late from work yesterday so I couldn't sit and watch all of last night's game, but from what I saw yesterday and from watching some highlights this morning, Colon looked like he had some nasty movement and effective command of his pitches. I know he hasn't been a relevant star in the league in over 5 years now, but his fall from grace has had more to do with, IMO, his inability to stay healthy and effective for a full season, not just that he doesn't have the touch for pitching any more. A few years ago when he was here for his 2nd go-around, he was a decent pitcher for a few months before he just couldn't go any more.

Zakath
04-28-2011, 07:22 AM
Team ERA over past 4 games: 2.12

Team BA over same period: .213

Yeah, it's not good to be a pitcher for the Sox these days. (no teal)

Hitmen77
04-28-2011, 08:33 AM
To be fair to the Sox hitters, I think Colon was pretty good. Like doub said, his problem in recent years has been not being able to keep that up for very long.

But that being said, that's no excuse for this pathetic showing. It seems like it doesn't matter who the Sox are facing on the mound, they're offense is inexcusably ****ty for the talent they have.

Same old crap year after year: "what's wrong with the Sox offense", "wait until the bats come around because they can't hit this bad all year", blah blah blah. The same old excuses for underperforming under current Sox management.

Baines:

But if you listen to the manager and the coaching staff all this is worked on consistently in spring training LOL

Lip

I also hear every spring to "ignore" the Sox lackluster performance in spring training because that doesn't mean anything and they'll be ready to go once April rolls around.

Maybe we can finally put that excuse to rest next spring if they're playing poor fundamentals in late spring.

TaylorStSox
04-28-2011, 09:02 AM
Colon's fastball looked great last night, but he's still pretty much a one pitch pitcher. The problem is that our guys have no plan at the plate. Everyone is in between. Everyone's watching pitches thrown down the middle and swinging at the tough ones.

Oh, and Beckham looks like he's loading a muzzle everytime he swings.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 09:19 AM
I also hear every spring to "ignore" the Sox lackluster performance in spring training because that doesn't mean anything and they'll be ready to go once April rolls around.

Maybe we can finally put that excuse to rest next spring if they're playing poor fundamentals in late spring.

It's more likely the Sox just suck and no amount of grindy hard-work in Spring Training would make any difference. These guys are dropping fly balls and ****, what do you want the Sox to do, have two-a-days starting in mid-February so they're gassed by July?

Red Barchetta
04-28-2011, 09:33 AM
I just don't understand how a team that just walked off the field the night before on such an emotional high (due to Lillibridge's two catches) can come out so flat offensively (again) the next game! :scratch:

It's like nothing sets a fire under these guys. It's not so much the loss, rather on how they lose. Win tonight and they take 3 of 4 in New York, which is pretty much the most I can expect of this team going into the series.

Moses_Scurry
04-28-2011, 09:35 AM
I'm sure that this is my selective memory, but is anyone else tired of the Sox free agent/trade busts "reviving" their careers with the Yankees?

David Wells ... Injured and awful with the Sox ... wins 19 games for the Yanks the following year

Nick Swisher ... Benched and awful with the Sox ... career high OPS and 29 HRs with the Yanks the following year

Bartolo Colon ... Awful with the Sox and out of baseball for a year ... To be determined. SO FAR 2.77 ERA and hitting 96 on the gun with the Yanks.

SI1020
04-28-2011, 10:09 AM
I hope calling a pitcher that just stopped your offense fatty and other derogatory terms makes posters feel better. It certainly shows no class whatsoever. He is fat. So is CC Sabathia, and a lot of other people these days. We've become quite the fat country. Life is no fun when you must walk quietly with your head slightly down so as to avoid challenging eye contact, and never never say something that might offend someone somewhere on the planet.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 10:13 AM
I just don't understand how a team that just walked off the field the night before on such an emotional high (due to Lillibridge's two catches) can come out so flat offensively (again) the next game! :scratch:

It's like nothing sets a fire under these guys. It's not so much the loss, rather on how they lose. Win tonight and they take 3 of 4 in New York, which is pretty much the most I can expect of this team going into the series.

It's because EMOTION IS RIDICULOUSLY OVERRATED. This isn't Game 7 of the World Series, it's APRIL. Has anyone around here ever watched baseball before? You can't go out and treat every game like it's do or die, this is a 162-game marathon, you're emotionally and physically gassed with 90 games left to play if you're giving every single at bat 110%. Come on.

And, yes, taking 3 of 4 in New York is AWESOME for any team. ****, splitting a 4-game series with the Yankees is pretty god damn good for the best teams in the league, let alone for a team that limped in losing 10 of 11 or whatever run we were on.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Bartolo Colon ... Awful with the Sox and out of baseball for a year ... To be determined. SO FAR 2.77 ERA and hitting 96 on the gun with the Yanks.

Yeah, how about we let Bartolo Colon throw more than 26 innings before we annoint his career "revived." This is what he did for us in 2009, started well, couldn't keep it together. I'd think any pitcher can juice the gun to 96 if they knew they didn't have to pitch past May.

kufram
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
I think there is something to the spring training argument. We seem to have the attitude that "it is spring training, it doesn't matter, we'll be ready on opening day." Then April is lost and people are looking for the groove. The groove needs to be found in Arizona. Obviously, a balance must be struck. You don't want your players peaking in Arizona, but I don't think we need to worry about that at this stage.

I've never understood why the starting line up isn't playing at least 7 innings every game for the last 10 days... if only to get them playing together as a unit. It is a team game after all.

I, personally, don't care how the minor league players are developing. They have winter baseball too, don't they?

If we could find a manager that actually enforced rigorous practice of the fundamentals of baseball... yes, that means bunting too... during spring training, even for the vets, I'd drop Ozzie in a second. There are some major league outfielders that actually don't know how to position their body for a throw when making a catch. Mind you, right now catching the ball can be enough of a challenge for some of them.

Trouble is, I don't know if any manager can do that these days.

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 10:22 AM
That may be true. If it is, shame on this team for being so soft mentally.

I guess these guys are all delicate little flowers who crack at the first sign of adversity.

Has nothing to do with emotion, they're just not executing.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
I just don't understand how a team that just walked off the field the night before on such an emotional high (due to Lillibridge's two catches) can come out so flat offensively (again) the next game! :scratch:

It's like nothing sets a fire under these guys. It's not so much the loss, rather on how they lose. Win tonight and they take 3 of 4 in New York, which is pretty much the most I can expect of this team going into the series.

Yes! It's the fire!!!

Chicago sports fandom kills me sometimes.

Chez
04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
Has nothing to do with emotion, they're just not executing.

Agreed. Timely hitting has been largely absent for a couple of weeks. I guess many posters would like to see players break their bats over their knees after they strike out or slide head-first into first base like Nick Punto after they ground out. I simply don't believe in baseball increased emotion = better execution.

I'm unhappy being 10-15, but I truly believe this offense will come around. Over the long haul, strong starting pitching is what wins divisions. Ours has been pretty good so far and if it holds up, we'll be there at the end.

ChiSoxGirl
04-28-2011, 11:21 AM
Has nothing to do with emotion, they're just not executing.

:lol:

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 11:29 AM
Agreed. Timely hitting has been largely absent for a couple of weeks. I guess many posters would like to see players break their bats over their knees after they strike out or slide head-first into first base like Nick Punto after they ground out. I simply don't believe in baseball increased emotion = better execution.

I'm unhappy being 10-15, but I truly believe this offense will come around. Over the long haul, strong starting pitching is what wins divisions. Ours has been pretty good so far and if it holds up, we'll be there at the end.

Well, my response had a hint of joking in it, but not to the blown out of proportion extent that the emotion subject has gotten into here. I don't think realistically a single poster here thinks that the Sox don't want to win or don't care. Emotion can play a part whether it's just needing a little more confidence, more focus and concentration, or whatever. To have our hitting coach come out and say the negative stuff has been blown out of proportion and that things are fine isn't going to sit well with people. Yes, the bottom line is the Sox need to execute, but with an offense that's sucked for the better part of two weeks, you start to wonder how or when the breakout is going to occur.

khan
04-28-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm sure that this is my selective memory, but is anyone else tired of the Sox free agent/trade busts "reviving" their careers with the Yankees?

David Wells ... Nick Swisher ... Bartolo Colon ...
I think that some of this is/was KW & OG being overly emotional, and making decisions based upon their emotions. That, and the fact that they're poorly educated may be one reason why they make such decisions. [KW only has a HS diploma/God only knows if OG even went to school in Venezuela.]

You could also point to the Javier Vazquez to Atlanta gifting that netted the SOX a backup utility IF, and a catcher that sucks at baseball without the benefit of PEDs as another example of such behavior by the [snicker]"braintrust."

Like Javy or not, his value should have been greater than zero. Of course, the two clowns made sure that everyone knew that they were going to trade Javy away, which locked in a low price in trade.


I think there is something to the spring training argument.
I used to not believe this, but the "Groundhog Day"-like nature of EVERY APRIL makes me wonder if there's something to this line of thought. I also wonder what the good organizations in MLB do during ST that is different than what the SOX do.

[Of course, the Ozzpologists will point to the Twins' early struggles, but ignore that the Twins also had a tougher early schedule than the SOX, and have been missing their MVP candidate.]

kittle42
04-28-2011, 11:34 AM
I don't think realistically a single poster here thinks that the Sox don't want to win or don't care.

I definitely think there are posters here who think several players and even the team as a whole simply do not care.

Chez
04-28-2011, 11:35 AM
Well, my response had a hint of joking in it, but not to the blown out of proportion extent that the emotion subject has gotten into here. I don't think realistically a single poster here thinks that the Sox don't want to win or don't care. Emotion can play a part whether it's just needing a little more confidence, more focus and concentration, or whatever. To have our hitting coach come out and say the negative stuff has been blown out of proportion and that things are fine isn't going to sit well with people. Yes, the bottom line is the Sox need to execute, but with an offense that's sucked for the better part of two weeks, you start to wonder how or when the breakout is going to occur.

I thought you were tired of being derided for the "gutless" comment and had come around! :smile:

BainesHOF
04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Colon has been throwing virtually all fastballs for YEARS.

Beckham goes up there and never takes the bat off his shoulder, appearing shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that strike three tailed back over the plate.

Ridiculous.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Colon has been throwing virtually all fastballs for YEARS.

Beckham goes up there and never takes the bat off his shoulder, appearing shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that strike three tailed back over the plate.

Ridiculous.

First recorded strikeout in Major League history.

hi im skot
04-28-2011, 11:42 AM
I think that some of this is/was KW & OG being overly emotional, and making decisions based upon their emotions. That, and the fact that they're poorly educated may be one reason why they make such decisions. [KW only has a HS diploma/God only knows if OG even went to school in Venezuela.]

You could also point to the Javier Vazquez to Atlanta gifting that netted the SOX a backup utility IF, and a catcher that sucks at baseball without the benefit of PEDs as another example of such behavior by the [snicker]"braintrust."

Like Javy or not, his value should have been greater than zero. Of course, the two clowns made sure that everyone knew that they were going to trade Javy away, which locked in a low price in trade.


It's been a rough morning for me, but khan, I'd like to thank you for such a chuckle-worthy post.

Bravo.

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I thought you were tired of being derided for the "gutless" comment and had come around! :smile:

:D: I was surprised that the gutless comment got any attention at all. Since it has to be explained, gutless was more of a relative term to explain their offensive performance during the slump, especially on Saturday and Sunday. Scoring 3 runs in 27 innings going into Tuesday is absolute garbage. However, I can't honestly look at the organization and half the players on our lineup and say they don't want to win. When I see a John Danks pitching his ass off or a Carlos Quentin getting fired up over a mistake, there's definitely some guys who want to win. And even Beckham sucks right now, but I know he's a guy that wants to be productive. Plus, four guys barely hitting their weight explains a lot of it, but something needs to gel and that hopefully better be soon before that 10-15 becomes something worse.

khan
04-28-2011, 11:53 AM
It's been a rough morning for me, but khan, I'd like to thank you for such a chuckle-worthy post.

Bravo.
I thank you for your contribution. Your thoughts are indeed illuminating.


That aside, think back to the circumstances surrounding the departure of some of these guys. You'll remember that both KW and OG made sure that EVERYONE knew that they were disappointed in these players. Anyone who followed the SOX knew that Swisher and Vazquez were gone.

Giving this information away undercut the organization's ability to extract any value in trade. What did Swisher get the SOX? What did Vazquez get the SOX?


Neither player is/was great, but the KW's/OG's inability to keep their pie-holes shut got them a whole lot of nothing for 2 MLB-quality players.

Jim Shorts
04-28-2011, 11:54 AM
I think that some of this is/was KW & OG being overly emotional, and making decisions based upon their emotions. That, and the fact that they're poorly educated may be one reason why they make such decisions. [KW only has a HS diploma/God only knows if OG even went to school in Venezuela.]

You could also point to the Javier Vazquez to Atlanta gifting that netted the SOX a backup utility IF, and a catcher that sucks at baseball without the benefit of PEDs as another example of such behavior by the [snicker]"braintrust."

Like Javy or not, his value should have been greater than zero. Of course, the two clowns made sure that everyone knew that they were going to trade Javy away, which locked in a low price in trade.


Yet again, I am amazed by the things I read on the Internet

khan
04-28-2011, 11:55 AM
Yet again, I am amazed by the things I read on the Internet

I know I'd take Swisher over Betemit/Marquez/Nunez. If you prefer the pile of trash over a guy who was just in the All Star game, I don't know what to tell you.

Jim Shorts
04-28-2011, 11:58 AM
I know I'd take Swisher over Betemit/Marquez/Nunez. If you prefer the pile of trash over a guy who was just in the All Star game, I don't know what to tell you.

That was not what amazed me.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 11:59 AM
Kenny and Ozzie's education being brought into this might be the most hilarious thing ever.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:03 PM
That was not what amazed me.

Indeed. Your thoughts are similarly illuminating.


Without any further information, we'll have to assume that:

Jim Shorts wants Nunez/Marquez/Betemit instead of a guy who, while not great, has contributed more to his team in 1 season than the three piles of trash KW got back. Also, we've learned that Skot prefers a sucks-without-PEDs Tyler Flowers and a could've-gotten-for-free-utility-IF in Lillibridge instead of a MLB quality SP.


Thanks for sharing your ideas, guys.

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 12:03 PM
It's been a rough morning for me, but khan, I'd like to thank you for such a chuckle-worthy post.

Bravo.

I, too had a chuckle, especially at the education part.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Kenny and Ozzie's education being brought into this might be the most hilarious thing ever.

The idea being that smart guys/educated guys typically don't give away value for free, as we've seen in these examples.

Dumbasses who were gifted a hs diploma only because they were elite HS athletes tend to make stupid decisions.

Education is good for those of us who want to work in management.

Exactly what is controversial about that?

Chez
04-28-2011, 12:06 PM
I thank you for your contribution. Your thoughts are indeed illuminating.


That aside, think back to the circumstances surrounding the departure of some of these guys. You'll remember that both KW and OG made sure that EVERYONE knew that they were disappointed in these players. Anyone who followed the SOX knew that Swisher and Vazquez were gone.

Giving this information away undercut the organization's ability to extract any value in trade. What did Swisher get the SOX? What did Vazquez get the SOX?


Neither player is/was great, but the KW's/OG's inability to keep their pie-holes shut got them a whole lot of nothing for 2 MLB-quality players.


Khan, this is a valid point. But your comment about Ozzie's and KW educational background is going to get you flamed [deservedly IMO].

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:07 PM
The idea being that smart guys/educated guys typically don't give away value for free, as we've seen in these examples.

Dumbasses who were gifted a hs diploma only because they were elite HS athletes tend to make stupid decisions.

Education is good for those of us who want to work in management.

Exactly what is controversial about that?

To act like Javier or Swisher weren't going to moved wouldn't have mattered. Only dumbasses think that KW and Ozzie pushed them out the door - not the fact that Javy couldn't show up for any game that mattered or that Swisher was ****ing awful for us.

But, okay. KW is a dumbass. Sure.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:13 PM
To act like Javier or Swisher weren't going to moved wouldn't have mattered. Only dumbasses think that KW and Ozzie pushed them out the door - not the fact that Javy couldn't show up for any game that mattered or that Swisher was ****ing awful for us.

But, okay. KW is a dumbass. Sure.
Yeah, and it's always a good idea to badmouth an asset you're trying to offload, right?

I mean, a realtor tells the buyer what a crappy neighborhood the house is in, and how there are pedophiles living up the block, right?

A defense lawyer tells the court how his client is lying through his teeth, right?

Hell, one could've even learned this lesson from the movie "The Godfather:"

"...Michael, don't EVER tell anyone what The Family is thinking. What's the matter with you?"

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:14 PM
Yeah, and it's always a good idea to badmouth an asset you're trying to offload, right?

I mean, a realtor tells the buyer what a crappy neighborhood the house is in, and how there are pedophiles living up the block, right?

A defense lawyer tells the court how his client is lying through his teeth, right?

Hell, one could've even learned this lesson from the movie "The Godfather:"

"...Michael, don't EVER tell anyone what The Family is thinking. What's the matter with you?"

Terrible comparison. You realize that other GMs can *gasp* watch games? They, too, can see how bad Javy was at points, or how terrible Swisher was all year.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
The idea being that smart guys/educated guys typically don't give away value for free, as we've seen in these examples.

Dumbasses who were gifted a hs diploma only because they were elite HS athletes tend to make stupid decisions.

Education is good for those of us who want to work in management.

Exactly what is controversial about that?

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1988080,00.html

Enjoy. By the way, one can also be extremely intelligent, yet simply bad at his or her job.

Jim Shorts
04-28-2011, 12:20 PM
Kenny and Ozzie's education being brought into this might be the most hilarious thing ever.


That is what amazed me, khan. But keep believing whatever it is you suggested that I support.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:21 PM
Khan, this is a valid point. But your comment about Ozzie's and KW educational background is going to get you flamed [deservedly IMO].

Perhaps. But the world isn't going back to the idea of having poorly-educated managers making the decisions. MLB is actually taking the opposite tack.

In any case, this continued trend of KW and OG stupidly opening their pie-holes and undercutting their own negotiating power in the process, has got to stop. Smart guys don't cut their own leveragebefore they get to the negotiating table. [Did Theo badmouth Manny before he fleeced the Dodgers, for example? I don't believe so.]

khan
04-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Terrible comparison. You realize that other GMs can *gasp* watch games? They, too, can see how bad Javy was at points, or how terrible Swisher was all year.

And yet, Todd Ritchie ended up on the White Sox.

Thanks for burnishing KW's rep.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:25 PM
And yet, Todd Ritchie ended up on the White Sox.

Thanks for burnishing KW's rep.

Wow. Going back to one of his very first moves, in which he gave up, well, nothing of use.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:26 PM
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1988080,00.html

Enjoy. By the way, one can also be extremely intelligent, yet simply bad at his or her job.

Yeah, I'm sure that an elite HS athlete like KW was forced to take AP physics, right?

More likely, he was "promoted" through the grades because he could hit a fastball and/or run the 40 in under 4.5...

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I'm sure that an elite HS athlete like KW was forced to take AP physics, right?

More likely, he was "promoted" through the grades because he could hit a fastball and/or run the 40 in under 4.5...

Now you are just making dumbass assumptions.

Jim Shorts
04-28-2011, 12:28 PM
Now you are just making dumbass assumptions.

Now?

khan
04-28-2011, 12:30 PM
Wow. Going back to one of his very first moves, in which he gave up, well, nothing of use.

And got nothing of use, thanks to his long study of film on Todd Ritchie.

[I use Todd Ritchie as one of many mistakes in judgement by KW, since you apparently like the pile of **** instead of an All Star. Believe me, there are many more than this.]


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a lot of Todd Ritchie-type acquisitions by smart guys like Theo Epstein. But overly-emotional [snicker] HS grads like KW are more than capable of such a thing.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Yeah, I'm sure that an elite HS athlete like KW was forced to take AP physics, right?

More likely, he was "promoted" through the grades because he could hit a fastball and/or run the 40 in under 4.5...

Now you are just making dumbass assumptions.

Yes, he is.

khan, you actually have some great points to make about the Sox brass and their unwise tactics, or lack thereof, in selling off their pieces. But then you proceed to bring this completely baseless bullcrap. I'm often accused of being a bit snobby with my educational elitism, but even I must take issue with the point you are trying to make. The list of successful, former athlete coaches and execs is long enough to immediately disprove your theory.

Nellie_Fox
04-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Yeah, I'm sure that an elite HS athlete like KW was forced to take AP physics, right?Yeah, the AP physics class would have sure helped him be a better general manager in baseball. Understanding the dynamics involved in why a curve ball curves is crucial.

Come around any university and see how many totally inept people with Ph.D. degrees there are. Extremely knowledgeable within a narrow field of expertise, and clueless outside of it.

khan
04-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Now you are just making dumbass assumptions.

Comparing guys that got into good schools based on their brains like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg to an elite HS athlete isn't really cogent, either.

Nellie_Fox
04-28-2011, 12:33 PM
Comparing guys that got into good schools based on their brains like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg to an elite HS athlete isn't really cogent, either.Gates dropped out of college. He didn't get his degree until just a couple of years ago.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:36 PM
And got nothing of use, thanks to his long study of film on Todd Ritchie.

[I use Todd Ritchie as one of many mistakes in judgement by KW, since you apparently like the pile of **** instead of an All Star. Believe me, there are many more than this.]


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a lot of Todd Ritchie-type acquisitions by smart guys like Theo Epstein. But overly-emotional [snicker] HS grads like KW are more than capable of such a thing.

Theo Epstein signed Matt Clement, Julio Lugo and traded Freddie Sanchez.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 12:36 PM
Gates dropped out of college. He didn't get his degree until just a couple of years ago.

Plus, we all know he got into college on a scholarship from his days as an elite HS badminton player.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 12:37 PM
Theo Epstein signed Matt Clement, Julio Lugo and traded Freddie Sanchez.

Irrelevant!

khan
04-28-2011, 12:40 PM
khan, you actually have some great points to make about the Sox brass and their unwise tactics, or lack thereof, in selling off their pieces. But then you proceed to bring this completely baseless bullcrap. I'm often accused of being a bit snobby with my educational elitism, but even I must take issue with the point you are trying to make. The list of successful, former athlete coaches and execs is long enough to immediately disprove your theory.

This may have been the case in the past. But, the world is changing. MLB, like most other mature businesses, are going towards the guys with the advanced degrees. The trend in hiring in front offices in MLB is more towards the smart guys, not the ex-ballplayer.

Yeah, the AP physics class would have sure helped him be a better general manager in baseball. Understanding the dynamics involved in why a curve ball curves is crucial.

Come around any university and see how many totally inept people with Ph.D. degrees there are. Extremely knowledgeable within a narrow field of expertise, and clueless outside of it.
And yet, the more recent front office hires in MLB are the guys with the JDs and MBAs and the like.

Being able to hit a curveball doesn't help you build an organization. Or hire the right people. [Dave Wilder, anyone?] Or make smart decisions in negotiation. [Mark Teahen?] Or tell Scott Boras to **** off when he asks for a ridiculous contract, for example.

But attending business school can help with some of these things. Having a JD can enable you to know when an agent is full of **** or not. Having a HS "diploma" can't arm a GM with the knowledge (s)he needs in the 21st Century, to tell you the truth.

#1swisher
04-28-2011, 12:44 PM
The White Sox didn't stand a chance. :tongue: Colon, "knew he was going to have a good game".

NYPost (http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/colon_sharp_again_in_win_over_chisox_TrjlynHHEgOg9 7fLotgu2M)

khan
04-28-2011, 12:47 PM
Gates dropped out of college. He didn't get his degree until just a couple of years ago.
Thank you. Bill Gates got into college because he's an intelligent human being, not because some booster wanted the cardinal to win the rose bowl.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Red sox also had the Manny saga. And Epstein left the organization and came back.

TheOldRoman
04-28-2011, 12:50 PM
Kenny and Ozzie's education being brought into this might be the most hilarious thing ever.Oh, that's just Khan, our resident personal trainer/financial analyst/taxidermist. You need a lot of eduaction to have the level of expertise he/she does.

Chez
04-28-2011, 12:55 PM
This may have been the case in the past. But, the world is changing. MLB, like most other mature businesses, are going towards the guys with the advanced degrees. The trend in hiring in front offices in MLB is more towards the smart guys, not the ex-ballplayer.


And yet, the more recent front office hires in MLB are the guys with the JDs and MBAs and the like.

Being able to hit a curveball doesn't help you build an organization. Or hire the right people. [Dave Wilder, anyone?] Or make smart decisions in negotiation. [Mark Teahen?] Or tell Scott Boras to **** off when he asks for a ridiculous contract, for example.

But attending business school can help with some of these things. Having a JD can enable you to know when an agent is full of **** or not. Having a HS "diploma" can't arm a GM with the knowledge (s)he needs in the 21st Century, to tell you the truth.

Doesn't Rick Hahn handle these duties? Hahn has his undergraduate degree from Michigan, his MBA from Northwestern and his law degree from Harvard! It's your inference that KW is stupid and can't be an effective GM simply because he lacks, in your opinion, the proper educational pedigree that is objectionable (if not offensive) to many. And remember, KW had his education at Stanford interrupted by signing a contract to play professional baseball. Had he not pursued an MLB career and instead graduated from Stanford, would he be better equipped to be a GM?

khan
04-28-2011, 12:59 PM
Red sox also had the Manny saga. And Epstein left the organization and came back.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Theo was already brought back to the red sawx before Manny was traded away.

Theo was able to extract a Silver Slugger award winner in Jason Bay for Manny. Theo was also smart enough to later offer arbitration to Bay, and extracted compensatory picks from the mets when Bay signed there. Moreover, losing Manny gave the sawx more space on their payroll to address other issues in their organization.

Think about that: Theo is able to get a Silver Slugger Award winner for a KNOWN bad clubhouse guy, a guy who has an expensive contract, and a highly-probable PED cheat that was not discovered until later. Theo later added two draft picks as well as a result of the Bay acquisition.

Contrast that with the [snicker] haul that KW is typically able to extract in trade. Could KW pull a Manny-like trade off? Or would he open his fat mouth beforehand and get some ****ty minor league crap in trade? Or would his field manager stupidly open his pie hole?

doublem23
04-28-2011, 01:00 PM
Holy **** this thread is ****ing hilarious.

:rolling:

khan
04-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Doesn't Rick Hahn handle these duties?
I don't know, did Hahn hire Dave Wilder? Or was Dave Wilder the BFF of Kenny?

Hahn has his undergraduate degree from Michigan, his MBA from Northwestern and his law degree from Harvard! It's your inference that KW is stupid and can't be an effective GM simply because he lacks, in your opinion, the proper educational pedigree that is objectionable (if not offensive) to many.
I don't have a PhD in astrophysics. I take no offense to someone telling me I'm ill-equipped to work for NASA.

Stating that KW is ill-equipped for a managerial position is an unfortunate fact of life.

And remember, KW had his education at Stanford interrupted by signing a contract to play professional baseball. Had he not pursued an MLB career and instead graduated from Stanford, would he be better equipped to be a GM?
Perhaps, if he studied something that correlates well to management, sales, economics, negotiation, or perhaps labor law. Unfortunately, he does not possess such qualities.

Jim Shorts
04-28-2011, 01:04 PM
This thread got so much better after 10:30 this morning...

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 01:06 PM
Damn it, now we know why the Sox aren't hitting and/or winning! It's not because of defense, lack of hitting, lack of a closer, or lack of emotion. It's because Ozzie and Kenny don't have postgraduate degrees! Damn it JR, will you please hire people that have such an education instead of HS Diploma/Venezuelan trained *******s before spending a 125 million! :angry:

khan
04-28-2011, 01:09 PM
Damn it, now we know why the Sox aren't hitting and/or winning! It's not because of defense, lack of hitting, lack of a closer, or lack of emotion. It's because Ozzie and Kenny don't have postgraduate degrees! Damn it JR, will you please hire people that have such education instead of HS Diploma/Venezualian trained *******s before spending a 125 million !
Well played.

Hey, I like the extraction of ideas here. Nonetheless, smart guys don't pick Mark Kotsay over Jim Thome.

hi im skot
04-28-2011, 01:10 PM
Kenny Williams is a goddamn idiot that got his degree out of a cereal box.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 01:12 PM
Why did khan ignore that Epstein signed Clement and Lugo and traded Sanchez and let the Manny saga get out of control and quit and came back. All with that sweet education of his?

He also gave Matzusaka a crapton of money. And signed JD Drew.

Edit - ah. He at least addressed Manny and tried to compare one of the best hitters of all time to Javy and Swisher in terms of a haul the team got.

kittle42
04-28-2011, 01:12 PM
Well played.

Hey, I like the extraction of ideas here. Nonetheless, smart guys don't pick Mark Kotsay over Jim Thome.

I am far too lazy to look this up, but there have to be highly educated sports execs making horrid decisions out there. There also have to be poorly educated sports execs who look like savants from their deals. I say we start a 10-year study and revisit this in May 2021.

Lip Man 1
04-28-2011, 01:17 PM
Kenny is not by any stretch an "uneducated idiot" but checking his bio in the 2011 White Sox media guide it says he "attended" Stanford University. It says nothing about him getting a degree.

Lip

hi im skot
04-28-2011, 01:25 PM
Kenny is not by any stretch an "uneducated idiot" but checking his bio in the 2011 White Sox media guide it says he "attended" Stanford University. It says nothing about him getting a degree.

Lip

Maybe khan can lead some sort of public witch hunt to track down a copy of KW's degree until KW himself can produce a verified copy of it.

PROVE IT, KENNY.

soltrain21
04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Just went by the park on the train. KW is outside with matches. SOMEBODY WATCH HIM!

tstrike2000
04-28-2011, 01:57 PM
Just went by the park on the train. KW is outside with matches. SOMEBODY WATCH HIM!

KW just might be torching Khan's car for exposing him as the uneducated bum that he really is.

kufram
04-28-2011, 02:01 PM
He is fat. So is CC Sabathia, and a lot of other people these days. We've become quite the fat country. Life is no fun when you must walk quietly with your head slightly down so as to avoid challenging eye contact, and never never say something that might offend someone somewhere on the planet.


It has always been distasteful and unacceptable to call people names. I learned that as a child. There is nothing new about it. It didn't offend me. It just shows zero class. Saying he is fat is one thing. Calling him fatty is another in my opinion. But we are skating close to politics here so I'm happy to drop it.

TDog
04-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Kenny is not by any stretch an "uneducated idiot" but checking his bio in the 2011 White Sox media guide it says he "attended" Stanford University. It says nothing about him getting a degree.

Lip

Kenny Williams attended Stanford University but left early to play professional baseball. Like a good many scholarship athletes, he didn't stay in college long enough to get a degree. Even many high-profile athletes who stay in school four or five years don't get their degrees. A few go back to get their degrees, but Kenny Williams wasn't just a few credits short. Still, it wasn't like he flunked out.

sullythered
04-28-2011, 02:47 PM
It has always been distasteful and unacceptable to call people names. I learned that as a child. There is nothing new about it. It didn't offend me. It just shows zero class. Saying he is fat is one thing. Calling him fatty is another in my opinion. But we are skating close to politics here so I'm happy to drop it.

It's not politics, it's common sense. I'm kinda fat: 6'4" 270. If somebody said "you're getting kinda fat," to me, I wouldn't be offended, it's true. If they said, "hey fatty," they would lose some teeth.

kufram
04-28-2011, 03:00 PM
It's not politics, it's common sense. I'm kinda fat: 6'4" 270. If somebody said "you're getting kinda fat," to me, I wouldn't be offended, it's true. If they said, "hey fatty," they would lose some teeth.


The safety of calling a big guy capable of throwing a baseball over 90 mph fatty from the anonymity of the internet was noted. The point I was trying to make is that it degrades the name caller more than the subject.

Some posters make very valid points but devalue them with objectionable personal derision.

Crestani
04-28-2011, 03:02 PM
It's not politics, it's common sense. I'm kinda fat: 6'4" 270. If somebody said "you're getting kinda fat," to me, I wouldn't be offended, it's true. If they said, "hey fatty," they would lose some teeth.


Um....Being 6'4'' and 270lbs you probably don't get anything but "Sir" directed at you....!!!!:D:

sullythered
04-28-2011, 03:04 PM
The safety of calling a big guy capable of throwing a baseball over 90 mph fatty from the anonymity of the internet was noted. The point I was trying to make is that it degrades the name caller more than the subject.

Some posters make very valid points but devalue them with objectionable personal derision.

Agree on all points. I was merely trying to show the practical difference (and potential fallout) in making a controversial observation and hurling an insult.

The former might bring an angry glare, the latter could easily bring something with a little more substance behind it.:cool:

sullythered
04-28-2011, 03:06 PM
Um....Being 6'4'' and 270lbs you probably don't get anything but "Sir" directed at you....!!!!:D:

True, but more for my cheery demeanor and overall awesomeness than any sort of physical intimidation.:tongue:

downstairs
04-28-2011, 03:15 PM
All Out!

happydude
04-28-2011, 03:36 PM
It's not politics, it's common sense. I'm kinda fat: 6'4" 270. If somebody said "you're getting kinda fat," to me, I wouldn't be offended, it's true. If they said, "hey fatty," they would lose some teeth.

And, once again, the restoration of the proper order of things in an uncivil society. :D:

SI1020
04-28-2011, 09:56 PM
Well I'm kind of short. Got called "shorty" and quite a few other adjectives while I was trying to grow up, very weak pun intended. Some referred to me in good humor, even affection, others with a twinge of meanness. Some even managed to combine the two. Big deal. I guess Chicago was a lot more "tough" back then LOL. I see that the "tall" CC Sabathia and his mates are beating the hell out of the Sox again and that just makes me filled with anger.