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View Full Version : Ozzie Hate??? How About KW?


Dub25
04-22-2011, 11:52 PM
I just logged in for the first time in awhile and I'm reading a lot of Ozzie hate. How about the GM that gave him this team? When does the honeymoon of 2005 wear off for Kenny? I say it has been 6 years so it is over...

doublem23
04-23-2011, 12:02 AM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:

Lip Man 1
04-23-2011, 12:05 AM
Double's comment makes a lot of sense to me.

Lip

Dub25
04-23-2011, 12:06 AM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:

I think if "All In" is a failure then the two of them are to blame. KW for giving OZ a bad pen with no closer and what you mentioned.

Dub25
04-23-2011, 12:08 AM
Also, can't forgive KW for the flame throwing pen of 2007 that he tried to duplicate from the 2006 Tigers.

doublem23
04-23-2011, 12:10 AM
Double's comment makes a lot of sense to me.

Lip

Yes, I think a lot of us who aren't as quick to turn on KW remember the Ron Schueler era and remember how frustrating it was watching the Sox sit on their prospects that would always just flame out in the Majors anyway.

sox1970
04-23-2011, 12:13 AM
Ozzie deserves a lot of blame, but Kenny's got some splainin' to do about the last few years:

Picking up the Rios contract. Was he blocking another team and got caught? A lot of people think so.

The Peavy deal. A lot of money. A lot of risk. Hasn't worked yet.

Giving Mark Teahen a 3-year contract, when he certainly would have been non-tendered this past December.

The Edwin Jackson trade, that may or may not work out---but his intention was to flip him for Adam Dunn last July. Didn't happen.

The Swisher fiasco. Both trades.

Not having a DH or legitimate lefty bat in 2010.

The Manny Ramirez waiver claim. He's a piece of ****, and it didn't work...at all.

Now he's been given a $125 million payroll, and the Sox are at 8-12. It's early in the season, and I'm giving them until June 1 to get to .500 before calling for anyone's head, but if they don't make the playoffs this season, something has to give. Two playoff appearances in 11 years isn't enough in this division with the payroll level the Sox are at. Kenny's got to go if they don't make it to postseason.

ShooterMcGavin
04-23-2011, 12:14 AM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:


I'm going to co-sign this post.

Dub25
04-23-2011, 12:15 AM
Yes, I think a lot of us who aren't as quick to turn on KW remember the Ron Schueler era and remember how frustrating it was watching the Sox sit on their prospects that would always just flame out in the Majors anyway.
That is funny because I am one that remembers Ron Schueler doing that but doesn't mean Kenny should get a free pass for trading Gio Gonzalez twice, 4 pitchers for a guy who was on the DL at the time and is still trying to come back, a Pirate named Todd Ritchie, and Royal rejects named Mike MacDougal, Andrew Sisco, and Mark Teabag... and the jury is still out on Phil Humber.

Dub25
04-23-2011, 12:18 AM
Ozzie deserves a lot of blame, but Kenny's got some splainin' to do about the last few years:

Picking up the Rios contract. Was he blocking another team and got caught? A lot of people think so.

The Peavy deal. A lot of money. A lot of risk. Hasn't worked yet.

Giving Mark Teahen a 3-year contract, when he certainly would have been non-tendered this past December.

The Edwin Jackson trade, that may or may not work out---but his intention was to flip him for Adam Dunn last July. Didn't happen.

The Swisher fiasco. Both trades.

Not having a DH or legitimate lefty bat in 2010.

The Manny Ramirez waiver claim. He's a piece of ****, and it didn't work...at all.

Now he's been given a $125 million payroll, and the Sox are at 8-12. It's early in the season, and I'm giving them until June 1 to get to .500 before calling for anyone's head, but if they don't make the playoffs this season, something has to give. Two playoff appearances in 11 years isn't enough in this division with the payroll level the Sox are at. Kenny's got to go if they don't make it to postseason.

Oh man, you make too much sense. You should be banned from here.

doublem23
04-23-2011, 12:33 AM
That is funny because I am one that remembers Ron Schueler doing that but doesn't mean Kenny should get a free pass for trading Gio Gonzalez twice, 4 pitchers for a guy who was on the DL at the time and is still trying to come back, a Pirate named Todd Ritchie, and Royal rejects named Mike MacDougal, Andrew Sisco, and Mark Teabag... and the jury is still out on Phil Humber.

Gio is pretty much the only serviceable player KW has given up you mentioned and even then it took years for him to develop at the Major League level. Considering folks are freaking out over an 8-12 start, it would have been humorous watching the reaction to Gio's growing pains. The A's have no problem losing 90 games a season so they were able to let him work it out.

People bitch and bitch about the Peavy deal, and yes, it hasn't work for us, but come on... We gave up nothing. Carter and Russell aren't in San Diego's organization any more. Poreda is nothing at this point. Richard's been the only guy who even marginally worked out for San Diego, and yes, he's a stud if you only look at the standard stats, W-L and ERA, but if you dig even a tiny bit deeper into some more stats that actually measure pitching performance, you won't be impressed. His WHIP is high, and every K/BB/9 IP ratio you can come up with is lackluster as well. If you want to acquire a pitcher of Jake Peavy's caliber and the only piece you have to give up is Clayton Richard, 11 GMs out of 10 do that deal.

The Teahen deal was terrible, yes, and Sisco and MacDougal flamed out as well, but that's life in the bullpen. Humber was a minor league waiver wire acquisition so who cares what happens to him? The Sox took a flyer on him, if he works out great, if not, who cares? Plus, I don't think you can mention Humber and then not pat KW on the back for the brilliant Loaiza pick up, who gave the Sox a Cy Young-caliber season and then was flipped for Jose Contreras.

doublem23
04-23-2011, 12:34 AM
Oh man, you make too much sense. You should be banned from here.

Yeah, we've got a gun to your head forcing you to post here.

pudge
04-23-2011, 02:05 AM
Gio is pretty much the only serviceable player KW has given up you mentioned and even then it took years for him to develop at the Major League level. Considering folks are freaking out over an 8-12 start, it would have been humorous watching the reaction to Gio's growing pains. The A's have no problem losing 90 games a season so they were able to let him work it out.

People bitch and bitch about the Peavy deal, and yes, it hasn't work for us, but come on... We gave up nothing. Carter and Russell aren't in San Diego's organization any more. Poreda is nothing at this point. Richard's been the only guy who even marginally worked out for San Diego, and yes, he's a stud if you only look at the standard stats, W-L and ERA, but if you dig even a tiny bit deeper into some more stats that actually measure pitching performance, you won't be impressed. His WHIP is high, and every K/BB/9 IP ratio you can come up with is lackluster as well. If you want to acquire a pitcher of Jake Peavy's caliber and the only piece you have to give up is Clayton Richard, 11 GMs out of 10 do that deal.

The Teahen deal was terrible, yes, and Sisco and MacDougal flamed out as well, but that's life in the bullpen. Humber was a minor league waiver wire acquisition so who cares what happens to him? The Sox took a flyer on him, if he works out great, if not, who cares? Plus, I don't think you can mention Humber and then not pat KW on the back for the brilliant Loaiza pick up, who gave the Sox a Cy Young-caliber season and then was flipped for Jose Contreras.

Great points. I really struggle with the KW era as a GM - I love how he goes for the juggular and always gets his guy. Danks was a steal. So was Freddy Garcia in '04. But then there are things like moving Foulke out for Billy Koch, which probably cost an '03 playoff appearance. All in all though, I think we will be crying when Kenny moves on and we have a GM who does nothing, like so many of them do.

captain54
04-23-2011, 02:39 AM
Given JR's history of loyalty to those that serve him the way he likes to be served, and also given the fact that KW and Ozzie brought him a WS title, it's very hard for me to believe that JR will force either of them out
of their current positions. Ever. That being said, given economics of how things work on the south side, loads of empty seats this summer and fall and a $120 mill payroll might make it very very difficult for JR to continue as things are.

Now if I had to bet on who would be the first to go, Ozzie or Kenny, I would say Ozzie.

Dan H
04-23-2011, 04:25 AM
The 2011 season isn't over yet despite the frustration of another anemic start. However, if the team is still limping along by early June, I don't think management should just sit there and do nothing as we all watch Ozzie do his stupid and angry post-game rants. Firing the manager doesn't cure everything but sometimes sparks a team. But to keep Ozzie as the team sinks in the Central would show the fans that the organization is giving up. In reality, Ozzie should go now.

I like Williams for the most part but since he took over the White Sox haven't been a consistent club. They have done some great things, had some great moments yet they can't be looked upon as an elite AL team. There has to be seem serious self-evaluation in this area too, and that should start now as well.

LITTLE NELL
04-23-2011, 05:23 AM
For the most part KW has supplied the talent, Ozzie has not gotten the most out of the talent supplied.

Dirty30
04-23-2011, 07:59 AM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:


Agree 100%!

soxfanatlanta
04-23-2011, 07:59 AM
I am not much of a fan of Ozzie either, but the Sox's farm system has been a complete joke for a long time; most of the guys at Charlotte wouldn't be close to AA in other organizations. That falls completely on KW - and I find that deplorable.

Both should go.

WSox597
04-23-2011, 08:42 AM
I would be okay with replacing both of them. As others have mentioned, KW has basically failed with the farm system. It's been an ongoing joke for years. He's been almost as bad as Harrelson was years ago.

Ozzie has worn out his welcome, his act is tired. He's more of a gambler than a tactician. He won in 2005, but it's been snake eyes ever since.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-23-2011, 08:58 AM
Gio is pretty much the only serviceable player KW has given up you mentioned and even then it took years for him to develop at the Major League level. Considering folks are freaking out over an 8-12 start, it would have been humorous watching the reaction to Gio's growing pains. The A's have no problem losing 90 games a season so they were able to let him work it out.

People bitch and bitch about the Peavy deal, and yes, it hasn't work for us, but come on... We gave up nothing. Carter and Russell aren't in San Diego's organization any more. Poreda is nothing at this point. Richard's been the only guy who even marginally worked out for San Diego, and yes, he's a stud if you only look at the standard stats, W-L and ERA, but if you dig even a tiny bit deeper into some more stats that actually measure pitching performance, you won't be impressed. His WHIP is high, and every K/BB/9 IP ratio you can come up with is lackluster as well. If you want to acquire a pitcher of Jake Peavy's caliber and the only piece you have to give up is Clayton Richard, 11 GMs out of 10 do that deal.

The Teahen deal was terrible, yes, and Sisco and MacDougal flamed out as well, but that's life in the bullpen. Humber was a minor league waiver wire acquisition so who cares what happens to him? The Sox took a flyer on him, if he works out great, if not, who cares? Plus, I don't think you can mention Humber and then not pat KW on the back for the brilliant Loaiza pick up, who gave the Sox a Cy Young-caliber season and then was flipped for Jose Contreras.

"years for him to develop?" In his age 24 season Gio went 15-9 with 170 Ks and 3.23 ERA. He's off to a a great start this year with 1.80 ERA and 23 Ks through 25 innings.

The line to acquire Peavy and his contract was not very long. His numbers away from Petco were pedestrian.

I agree with Sox1970. Additionally, the team would have been better off with Chris Young than the three mediocre years from Javy Vazquez and the $37 million they gave him. (Go ahead and tell us Young's not any good - you're wrong)

Yes, the pre-2005 moves were by definition good but since then KW has not been very good and has provided disappointing results despite a generous payroll.

doublem23
04-23-2011, 09:34 AM
I agree with Sox1970. Additionally, the team would have been better off with Chris Young than the three mediocre years from Javy Vazquez and the $37 million they gave him. (Go ahead and tell us Young's not any good - you're wrong)

Chris Young's not very good. Granted, I don't watch me a lot of Diamondbacks baseball, so he could be a fine defender, but you realize this is a guy who has an OPS+ under 100 over 2,400 career PA in now his 6th MLB season, right? .241/.317/.443 career line... at Chase Field.

Chris Young - Not that good. Not that good at all.

SephClone89
04-23-2011, 09:51 AM
People bitch and bitch about the Peavy deal, and yes, it hasn't work for us, but come on... We gave up nothing. Carter and Russell aren't in San Diego's organization any more. Poreda is nothing at this point. Richard's been the only guy who even marginally worked out for San Diego, and yes, he's a stud if you only look at the standard stats, W-L and ERA, but if you dig even a tiny bit deeper into some more stats that actually measure pitching performance, you won't be impressed. His WHIP is high, and every K/BB/9 IP ratio you can come up with is lackluster as well. If you want to acquire a pitcher of Jake Peavy's caliber and the only piece you have to give up is Clayton Richard, 11 GMs out of 10 do that deal.


Bingo. I can't believe people think we lost this. Hell, Carter is back in our organization.

SI1020
04-23-2011, 10:06 AM
I am not much of a fan of Ozzie either, but the Sox's farm system has been a complete joke for a long time; most of the guys at Charlotte wouldn't be close to AA in other organizations. That falls completely on KW - and I find that deplorable.

Both should go. This.



"years for him to develop?" In his age 24 season Gio went 15-9 with 170 Ks and 3.23 ERA. He's off to a a great start this year with 1.80 ERA and 23 Ks through 25 innings.

The line to acquire Peavy and his contract was not very long. His numbers away from Petco were pedestrian.

I agree with Sox1970. Additionally, the team would have been better off with Chris Young than the three mediocre years from Javy Vazquez and the $37 million they gave him. (Go ahead and tell us Young's not any good - you're wrong)

Yes, the pre-2005 moves were by definition good but since then KW has not been very good and has provided disappointing results despite a generous payroll. And this with some minor reservations.

Tragg
04-23-2011, 10:28 AM
Williams does try, but eventually the results have to be there. The results of most of his trades the last several years have been dreadful.
One can argue that in many case what he gave up hasn't done much....true, but what's relevant is the effect on the team. And it hasn't helped much.
Also, when you trade prospects, which is what Williams usually does, you are trading the future and potential for more of a more dependable outcome, albeit lower ceiling, today. Hasn't worked.

I also think that he hasn't done a great job at times in matching players with Guillen's preferences as a manager. And if he doesn't like Guillen's preferences, then get a new manager.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Chris Young's not very good. Granted, I don't watch me a lot of Diamondbacks baseball, so he could be a fine defender, but you realize this is a guy who has an OPS+ under 100 over 2,400 career PA in now his 6th MLB season, right? .241/.317/.443 career line... at Chase Field.

Chris Young - Not that good. Not that good at all.



2007 Young OPS: .763 White Sox CF: .629
2008 Young OPS: .758 White Sox CF: .734
2009 Young OPS: .711 White Sox CF: .606
2010 Young OPS: .793 White Sox CF: .798
2011 Young OPS: .759 White Sox CF: .479

In 2010 Young was FOURTH among MLB CF in OPS, just ahead of Rios. He was also second in HR, first in RBI and tenth in SB but only 14th in AVG. And he's just now turning 27 after averaging 26 HR and 21 SB per 162 games from age 23-26.

SI1020
04-23-2011, 10:37 AM
I also think that he hasn't done a great job at times in matching players with Guillen's preferences as a manager. And if he doesn't like Guillen's preferences, then get a new manager. I get the impression Guillen wasn't really his choice. Ozzieball only worked in one very obvious year. Other than that the rosters have not been built to his specifications, and despite this he won't alter his tactics.

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2011, 10:54 AM
2007 Young OPS: .763 White Sox CF: .629
2008 Young OPS: .758 White Sox CF: .734
2009 Young OPS: .711 White Sox CF: .606
2010 Young OPS: .793 White Sox CF: .798
2011 Young OPS: .759 White Sox CF: .479

In 2010 Young was FOURTH among MLB CF in OPS, just ahead of Rios. He was also second in HR, first in RBI and tenth in SB but only 14th in AVG. And he's just now turning 27 after averaging 26 HR and 21 SB per 162 games from age 23-26.

Ouch. I like Rios, but considering what we spend on him, we probably would be better off with Young patrolling CF and spending that money elsewhere.

Looking back, it seems like KW has made a lot of moves since 2006 that haven't really paid off, such as both Vazquez deals, both Swisher deals, and so far the Peavy deal. But he's also made some pretty good moves, too. Despite his two injury-plagued seasons, Quentin has paid off more than Chris Carter. And while McCarthy may be resurrecting his career right now, Danks arguably is our ace.

We don't know how the Sox would have fared over the past five years with a younger roster that included Young, Gio, Hudson, Richard, etc. instead of Vazquez (who ate a lot of innings from 2006-2008), Swisher, Peavy, etc.

I think KW deserves some blame, but I also think Ozzie deserves more. He has accomplished so little with so much talent.

LoveYourSuit
04-23-2011, 12:17 PM
Kenny is the only GM in my lifetime who has talked sense to JR about opening up the checkbook.

Enough said.

JB98
04-23-2011, 12:41 PM
I was critical of KW throughout the 2009 season because I thought he handed Ozzie a thin and mostly crappy roster. Getz, Fields, Betemit, Corky Miller, BA, Wise, Jimmy Gobble and fat-ass Bartolo Colon? C'mon. We had a lot of bad players that year. Major adjustments had to be made midseason, and it's no wonder the team never came together and ended up 79-83.

I wasn't fond of the 2010 roster coming into the season either. It was better than the 2009 roster, but not good enough to expect championship play. I thought Ozzie did an OK job to coax 88 wins out of that group. I mean, he had Kotsay and 43-year-old Vizquel playing almost every day, and the bullpen went to **** the second half of the season. I really wasn't too pissed at Ozzie last year.

But this offseason, I thought JR opened the pocketbook and KW made some really nice additions. I'm dismayed by the 8-12 start and I expect better from this group moving forward. If we don't see better results soon, then I believe it's more on the manager, coaching staff and players than it is on the front office. These guys should be better than this.

TomBradley72
04-23-2011, 01:46 PM
I am not much of a fan of Ozzie either, but the Sox's farm system has been a complete joke for a long time; most of the guys at Charlotte wouldn't be close to AA in other organizations. That falls completely on KW - and I find that deplorable.

Both should go.

+1.

KW was actually in charge of the minors before being GM- so the long term, poor performance of the minor league system is on his door step.

Right now he was $45M tied up in Rios/Peavy/Dunn- how those investments play out this season will predict his future.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2011, 02:12 PM
I think Kenny gets way too much credit and I think so much of it is for being "all in" and as others have said, people remember the Schueler era. But really, I think that Kenny is an overwhelmingly mediocre GM. This is a guy who once said "I thought our offense would over come our lack of defense." He contributed his success in 2005 because he said "We decided to build around pitching and defense," to which my reaction would have been "It took you five years to realize that pitching and defense is what wins championships?"

A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!

Kenny likes to think of himself as a gambler, and he is, but a lot of his gambles haven't worked out. He gave away the farm for Peavy while Peavy was on the DL and while those guys haven't helped, they were still trading chips we could have worked with. He gave away the farm again for Swisher who Kenny thought would be a good lead off guy and that lasted all of one year. He traded away a good young pitcher in Masset for the ancient Ken Griffey Junior and then thought that Junior could still play center. He thought in 2009 that Contreras and Colon would work as a number 4 and 5 starter for the Sox. Kenny is every bit as guilty for misjudging talent that Ozzie is. Kenny is also SOLELY responsible for the state that the farm system is in. Kenny is also responsible for financially handcuffing this team with a bunch of veterans going "all in." If it works and we win, great, but let's not act like it took some sort of genius baseball mind to have the idea to sign Dunn, Konerko and AJ. Jerry gets the credit there for opening up the books, any other GM would have done the same thing given the same financial resources that Kenny was given. And if we don't make the playoffs well then we are going to have a lot of expensive guys who are in their 30s that no one else would want, no one on the farm to help and no money to sign any other pieces next year.

TomBradley72
04-23-2011, 02:25 PM
A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!



This ranks right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch,etc.

We let Thome go- then end up changing course and signing Manny Ramirez- so we spend twice as much on Kotsay/Ramirez as we would have with Thome. On top of that, a few months later we invest $15M/yr in Adam Dunn who's even more of base clogging/all or nothing DH than Thome was.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2011, 02:38 PM
This ranks right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch,etc.

We let Thome go- then end up changing course and signing Manny Ramirez- so we spend twice as much on Kotsay/Ramirez as we would have with Thome. On top of that, a few months later we invest $15M/yr in Adam Dunn who's even more of base clogging/all or nothing DH than Thome was.

I have no problem with the fact that our DHs aren't fast, really all I want them to do is hit. But Ozzie's point was it's hard when you have a DH who can't play the field at all and that is the deal with Thome. Dunn, while not a good fielder, could occasionally spell Konerko if it were needed. Thome couldn't do that. So I have no problem with letting Thome go after 2009, my problem is with who they brought in to replace him.

Carneyman14
04-23-2011, 02:41 PM
KW has consistently put us in a position to win. Teams not named Red Sox Phillies or Yankees will have holes in their line up and pitching. We have to count on someone doing better than expected (Thornton, Sale, Santos,Morel Lillibeast) to make this team good. Ozzie, IMO had done mediocre since 2005. If he doesn't make the playoff this year then IMO he has done badly and there should be a change. or if we fall behind more than 10 games

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2011, 03:39 PM
A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!

No roster is perfect. The 2010 roster was flawed because we lacked a good hitter. Nevertheless, Ozzie should have been smarter about how he used the DH. Instead of rotating two solid fielders - Kotsay and Jones - at the DH spot, he should used the DH most to protect/rest Paulie (with Kotsay at 1B) and Quentin (with Jones in RF). It was asinine to DH Kotsay and Jones.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2011, 03:55 PM
No roster is perfect. The 2010 roster was flawed because we lacked a good hitter. Nevertheless, Ozzie should have been smarter about how he used the DH. Instead of rotating two solid fielders - Kotsay and Jones - at the DH spot, he should used the DH most to protect/rest Paulie (with Kotsay at 1B) and Quentin (with Jones in RF). It was asinine to DH Kotsay and Jones.

Well most of Jones' appearances and games started was actually in the outfield rather than at DH. Kotsay also said in the beginning of spring training that year that he wouldn't be able to play the OF because of his back.

tsoxman
04-23-2011, 04:00 PM
I think Kenny gets way too much credit and I think so much of it is for being "all in" and as others have said, people remember the Schueler era. But really, I think that Kenny is an overwhelmingly mediocre GM. This is a guy who once said "I thought our offense would over come our lack of defense." He contributed his success in 2005 because he said "We decided to build around pitching and defense," to which my reaction would have been "It took you five years to realize that pitching and defense is what wins championships?"

A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!

Kenny likes to think of himself as a gambler, and he is, but a lot of his gambles haven't worked out. He gave away the farm for Peavy while Peavy was on the DL and while those guys haven't helped, they were still trading chips we could have worked with. He gave away the farm again for Swisher who Kenny thought would be a good lead off guy and that lasted all of one year. He traded away a good young pitcher in Masset for the ancient Ken Griffey Junior and then thought that Junior could still play center. He thought in 2009 that Contreras and Colon would work as a number 4 and 5 starter for the Sox. Kenny is every bit as guilty for misjudging talent that Ozzie is. Kenny is also SOLELY responsible for the state that the farm system is in. Kenny is also responsible for financially handcuffing this team with a bunch of veterans going "all in." If it works and we win, great, but let's not act like it took some sort of genius baseball mind to have the idea to sign Dunn, Konerko and AJ. Jerry gets the credit there for opening up the books, any other GM would have done the same thing given the same financial resources that Kenny was given. And if we don't make the playoffs well then we are going to have a lot of expensive guys who are in their 30s that no one else would want, no one on the farm to help and no money to sign any other pieces next year.
From what I gather, many fans like Kenny because of his 'all in' approach and that unlike previous Sox GMs he makes deals that the 'fans' like. To that end, I think of Kenny as the parent that always gives his kids everything they ask for. The typical Kenny moves are always popular and the media has a field day with them especially during the trading deadline, but truthfully, many of these recent blockbusters have been disasters.

Slowly but surely, we are starting to see some of these same fans (and media) that loved these deals realize how much this team is screwed going forward and how much it was Kenny that put the franchise in the position that it is in now. We have no farm system so there is little promise for the future and we have few trading chips on which to to rebuild. If I were the owner, I would not place any confidence whatsoever in Kenny to build this organization. Notice that I said build because it was never an organization that developed talent consistently.

If you look around baseball today, the current trend is youth and player developement-not like it was 10 years ago when you could rely on a steroid-addled veterans to contend.

With Rick Hahn waiting in the wings, there is nothing that should stop uncle Jerry from handing him the reins. If he doesn't some other team will. And, in recognition of the fact that Kenny did win a WC, give him his due too and promote him to a higher level 'John Paxon-like' role. I doubt Kenny would last long in a position like this, but so what. This franchise needs to move on with a new GM and likely a new field manager. Fans have to realize that when this team wins again, there will be little resemblance of what it is now. It's time for some new faces and not just the ones on the field.

As long as the product on the filed is what it is, and there is no change in management, I am voting with my feet this year.

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Well most of Jones' appearances and games started was actually in the outfield rather than at DH. Kotsay also said in the beginning of spring training that year that he wouldn't be able to play the OF because of his back.

Jones had 14 games at DH and Kotsay had 47 starts at DH. Neither should have had ANY at DH. (And Manny Ramirez never should have been acquired). I would have broken up the ~150 DH starts as follows:

Paulie: 50 (Kotsay plays 1B)
Quentin: 80 (Jones plays RF)
Pierre: 5 (Jones plays LF)
Rios: 5 (Jones plays CF)
Beckham: 5 (Vizquel plays 2B)
Alexei: 5 (Vizquel plays SS)

Jurr
04-23-2011, 04:39 PM
There will be a big sign on the Dan showing the players with a sign saying "All On"......with a trading block underneath.

Jerry cannot be pleased with this performance.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2011, 06:08 PM
KW has consistently put us in a position to win. Teams not named Red Sox Phillies or Yankees will have holes in their line up and pitching. We have to count on someone doing better than expected (Thornton, Sale, Santos,Morel Lillibeast) to make this team good. Ozzie, IMO had done mediocre since 2005. If he doesn't make the playoff this year then IMO he has done badly and there should be a change. or if we fall behind more than 10 games

I don't think he always puts us in a good position to win. To me his teams are always lacking one vital component to winning which is why we are always beat by the Twins.

Prior to 2005 Kenny completely ignored defense. He had a lot of good pitchers and a lot of guys who could hit home runs, but my God Jose Valentine was once playing two of the most important defensive positions on the diamond. In 2005 he finally realized the importance of defense and this was largely after Ozzie said "I would like to have a team that is built more around speed and defense." In 2006 he didn't have a fourth outfielder or anyone else who could play CF so we were pretty much forced to throw Mackowiak out there (but that's really a minor thing). In 2007 he figured the only thing that was needed for a good bullpen was the ability to throw the ball hard, that bullpen was HIS pet project that off season and that bullpen cost us 18 games. In 2008 we had another sloppy defensive team and Kenny neglected to get a leadoff hitter that year. In 2009 he thought that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon would work as 4-5 starters which is why we finished under .500, in 2010 he didn't get a DH or a third baseman. 2011 it's a closer.

Kenny's teams always look good on paper but then you go back at the end of the season and say "oh yea, we didn't have that. And we didn't have that..."

TomBradley72
04-23-2011, 06:19 PM
From 2006-2010 the White Sox had the 6th most wins in the AL, specific to the AL Central- 3rd most behind Minn and Det.

I've always perceived KW as much better than Schueler- but in the the last 5 years of his tenure (1996-2000)- the White Sox were 7th in wins in the AL.

VMSNS
04-23-2011, 06:20 PM
A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!



Please. Ozzie was in love with Kotsay ever since we got him from the Red Sox. After the 2009 season, Ozzie was asked "What's the first thing we need to do this offseason?" and he responded with "Resign Mark Kotsay". Ozzie wanted to do things his way last season and Kenny, for right or for wrong, appeased him and tried to build the team around what Ozzie wanted. It wasn't until the end of the season, where it was evident that Ozzie's rotating DH garbage wasn't working, that Kenny went out and got Manny, but by then the bullpen had already blown it for us and it was too late.

Kenny deserves his fair share of blame for having a non-existent farm system, but Kenny also put us in a wonderful position to run away with the division this season (even with the closer situation). This season, so far, is mostly on Ozzie, IMO.

dickallen15
04-23-2011, 06:29 PM
From 2006-2010 the White Sox had the 6th most wins in the AL, specific to the AL Central- 3rd most behind Minn and Det.

I've always perceived KW as much better than Schueler- but in the the last 5 years of his tenure (1996-2000)- the White Sox were 7th in wins in the AL.
There were 2 Schuelers. The aggressive guy JR originally hired, and the ultra conservative didn't want to spend any of JR's money Schu. He did sign Belle eventually but cheaped out elsewhere, and did build the team to a division title in 2000, so he left KW a pretty good core of players with Buehrle, Foulke, Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Valentin, Konerko, Durham, but I don't think he would have ever regained the aggressiveness to take the Sox to the next level. KW has had a ton of advantages over his AL Central counterparts and has a WS title. Without it, I doubt he would have any support on any White Sox message board, but its a huge chip.

soxinem1
04-23-2011, 06:38 PM
I would be okay with replacing both of them. As others have mentioned, KW has basically failed with the farm system. It's been an ongoing joke for years. He's been almost as bad as Harrelson was years ago.

Ozzie has worn out his welcome, his act is tired. He's more of a gambler than a tactician. He won in 2005, but it's been snake eyes ever since.

Hawk did sign Scott Radinsky and Craig Grebeck. The Grady Hall #1 draft pick is what made him look bad.

I have been one of the biggest critics of KW drafting and developing minor-leaguers, however their last two draft picks are probably his best. Saying that, you can't rebuild it overnight, but if the KC and CLE farm systems start pumping out major leaguers like many think they will in the next couple seasons, I think many teams will reassess their own efforts.

I still say the White Sox should bury the hatchet with Larry Himes (and Al Goldis) and let them scout for the team's amateur drafting and trade possibilities. Himes record with both LAAA (then California Angels) and us were both solid and yielded great drafts, and Himes was also pretty knowledgeable of other teams minor league players in trades.

I think KW knows this but he also blames Himes for killing his own MLB career. But if JR and Kenny can let bygones be bygones with Fisk and Thomas, do it again, for the benefit of the team.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2011, 06:45 PM
Himes did a fine job, very true... but it also has to be asked, how much did the fact that the Sox had very high first round draft picks, factor into that run of success?

Lip

dickallen15
04-23-2011, 06:55 PM
Himes did a fine job, very true... but it also has to be asked, how much did the fact that the Sox had very high first round draft picks, factor into that run of success?

Lip


True he got very lucky. He really wanted Mike Harkey but the Cubs took him so he had to settle for McDowell. The Cubs selected right before the Sox the next season and had been looking for a 3rd baseman for years but somehow passed on Robin Ventura and picked Ty Griffin with the pick right before the Sox selection. The next year, the Sox really wanted Jeff Jackson from Simeon but the Phillies took him so they settled on Frank Thomas. The next year they got Alex Fernandez, lucky that he didn't sign when he was drafted by the Brewers earlier. The Cubs picked one pick before the Sox in 1987 and 1988 and one pick after the Sox in 1989. The Sox got McDowell, Ventura and Thomas. The Cubs drafted Harkey, Griffin and Earl Cunningham. If Himes had the Cubs draft, the 1990's could have been a very long decade on the south side.

Gavin
04-23-2011, 07:02 PM
I don't think he always puts us in a good position to win. To me his teams are always lacking one vital component to winning which is why we are always beat by the Twins.

Prior to 2005 Kenny completely ignored defense. He had a lot of good pitchers and a lot of guys who could hit home runs, but my God Jose Valentine was once playing two of the most important defensive positions on the diamond. In 2005 he finally realized the importance of defense and this was largely after Ozzie said "I would like to have a team that is built more around speed and defense." In 2006 he didn't have a fourth outfielder or anyone else who could play CF so we were pretty much forced to throw Mackowiak out there (but that's really a minor thing). In 2007 he figured the only thing that was needed for a good bullpen was the ability to throw the ball hard, that bullpen was HIS pet project that off season and that bullpen cost us 18 games. In 2008 we had another sloppy defensive team and Kenny neglected to get a leadoff hitter that year. In 2009 he thought that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon would work as 4-5 starters which is why we finished under .500, in 2010 he didn't get a DH or a third baseman. 2011 it's a closer.

Kenny's teams always look good on paper but then you go back at the end of the season and say "oh yea, we didn't have that. And we didn't have that..."

There isn't a team in the thirty team MLB organization that isn't lacking something. The Sox, in my opinion, have had a competitive team every year during KW's tenure. Granted, some years' teams have had better chances than others. I can't ask for anything more.

I KNOW that we, as fans, are lucky to have the teams we've had. We can't expect the manager to make brilliant moves 100% of the time.

Ozzie is a different story.

soxinem1
04-23-2011, 07:05 PM
Himes did a fine job, very true... but it also has to be asked, how much did the fact that the Sox had very high first round draft picks, factor into that run of success?

Lip

He signed Richard Dotson and Roberto Hernandez with the Angels as #1 picks, among others, and really, only the 1990 draft yielded high picks, as the 1989 team was a last place club. That is not even including his #36 pick from 1990, Jason Bere, who won 24 games over two incomplete seasons.

Look at Roland Hemond's, Ron Scheuler's, and Kenny Williams GM terms, then tell me why only seven times in 40 years your #1 draft pick became a bonified major league player. Of the seven, five were Himes picks.

I just find it hard to believe that any team could have the opportunity to pick one of the top two dozen players available and have an average about on par with what the current team has been hitting.

I just don't buy the draft-position argument. How come teams like LAD, BOS, NYY and other usually high-finishing, low-drafting teams crank out their own players? It's not just the amateur draft, but scouting and signing players from other countries as well.

The White Sox need to start making a serious effort of developing from within, and the one brief time they actually were doing this, JR put his ego ahead of the best interests of the team.

True he got very lucky. He really wanted Mike Harkey but the Cubs took him so he had to settle for McDowell. The Cubs selected right before the Sox the next season and had been looking for a 3rd baseman for years but somehow passed on Robin Ventura and picked Ty Griffin with the pick right before the Sox selection. The next year, the Sox really wanted Jeff Jackson from Simeon but the Phillies took him so they settled on Frank Thomas. The next year they got Alex Fernandez, lucky that he didn't sign when he was drafted by the Brewers earlier. The Cubs picked one pick before the Sox in 1987 and 1988 and one pick after the Sox in 1989. The Sox got McDowell, Ventura and Thomas. The Cubs drafted Harkey, Griffin and Earl Cunningham. If Himes had the Cubs draft, the 1990's could have been a very long decade on the south side.

I agree about Harkey, but I seem to remember Himes really wanting Thomas and Ventura even before the actual picks. I believe he attended more of their college games in person than any of the others.

There isn't a team in the thirty team MLB organization that isn't lacking something. The Sox, in my opinion, have had a competitive team every year during KW's tenure. Granted, some years' teams have had better chances than others. I can't ask for anything more.

I KNOW that we, as fans, are lucky to have the teams we've had. We can't expect the manager to make brilliant moves 100% of the time.

Ozzie is a different story.

The manager does not have to make brilliant decisions. The manager has to make smart ones.

TheOldRoman
04-23-2011, 07:12 PM
This ranks right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch,etc.

We let Thome go- then end up changing course and signing Manny Ramirez- so we spend twice as much on Kotsay/Ramirez as we would have with Thome. On top of that, a few months later we invest $15M/yr in Adam Dunn who's even more of base clogging/all or nothing DH than Thome was.That isn't true at all. Dunn isn't nearly as slow as the Thome/Konerko lumbering oafs. I think Dunn might even be faster than AJ at this point. While he isn't going to be a stolen base threat, he isn't like Konerko who can pretty much only score from first on a triple.

dickallen15
04-23-2011, 07:24 PM
That isn't true at all. Dunn isn't nearly as slow as the Thome/Konerko lumbering oafs. I think Dunn might even be faster than AJ at this point. While he isn't going to be a stolen base threat, he isn't like Konerko who can pretty much only score from first on a triple.

None of these guys are paid for their baserunning. They are paying Dunn more than twice as much as they ever paid Thome considering the money they received from Philadelphia. I like having Dunn in the Sox line up personally, but no way he's worth what they are paying him.

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2011, 07:56 PM
There isn't a team in the thirty team MLB organization that isn't lacking something. The Sox, in my opinion, have had a competitive team every year during KW's tenure. Granted, some years' teams have had better chances than others. I can't ask for anything more.

I KNOW that we, as fans, are lucky to have the teams we've had. We can't expect the manager to make brilliant moves 100% of the time.

Ozzie is a different story.

All of Kenny's success has come with Ozzie at the helm.

TomBradley72
04-23-2011, 08:04 PM
There isn't a team in the thirty team MLB organization that isn't lacking something. The Sox, in my opinion, have had a competitive team every year during KW's tenure. Granted, some years' teams have had better chances than others. I can't ask for anything more.

I KNOW that we, as fans, are lucky to have the teams we've had. We can't expect the manager to make brilliant moves 100% of the time.

Ozzie is a different story.

Describing 2007 and 2009 as "competitive" is a stretch.

TomBradley72
04-23-2011, 08:07 PM
That isn't true at all. Dunn isn't nearly as slow as the Thome/Konerko lumbering oafs. I think Dunn might even be faster than AJ at this point. While he isn't going to be a stolen base threat, he isn't like Konerko who can pretty much only score from first on a triple.

But he strikes out a ton more than any other player- 199Ks last year.

He's a strike out/walk/HR guy- at the extreme.

He may be a little faster- but still fits into the category of base clogger.

Tragg
04-23-2011, 10:59 PM
The manager does not have to make brilliant decisions. The manager has to make smart ones.

Just not make stupid decisions.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2011, 11:00 PM
Not trying to hijack this thread but because it's about the hand Kenny has in all this, I found this to be interesting:

"Daniel Hudson's second season with the Diamondbacks is off to a stumbling start, largely because he has given up nine runs in the first innings of his four starts. He was 7-1 with a 1.69 ERA in 11 starts after the White Sox traded him a year ago, but he isn't backing that up."

He's 0-4 with an ERA of 5.92. 20 hits in 24 innings of work.

Lip

Nelfox02
04-23-2011, 11:12 PM
Not trying to hijack this thread but because it's about the hand Kenny has in all this, I found this to be interesting:

"Daniel Hudson's second season with the Diamondbacks is off to a stumbling start, largely because he has given up nine runs in the first innings of his four starts. He was 7-1 with a 1.69 ERA in 11 starts after the White Sox traded him a year ago, but he isn't backing that up."

He's 0-4 with an ERA of 5.92. 20 hits in 24 innings of work.

Lip


Echoing a bit of what has already been posted here but I dont really find fault with Kenny for the peices he has given up.....its not like we have shipped out any Hanley Ramirez types, its just that recently it seems like the majority of players he has acquired via trade or free agency (or waivers) have not done much, and are getting paid quite well to suck wind.

Hard to put all the player futility on Kenny tho....

palehozenychicty
04-24-2011, 11:56 AM
Ozzie deserves a lot of blame, but Kenny's got some splainin' to do about the last few years:

Picking up the Rios contract. Was he blocking another team and got caught? A lot of people think so.

The Peavy deal. A lot of money. A lot of risk. Hasn't worked yet.

Giving Mark Teahen a 3-year contract, when he certainly would have been non-tendered this past December.

The Edwin Jackson trade, that may or may not work out---but his intention was to flip him for Adam Dunn last July. Didn't happen.

The Swisher fiasco. Both trades.

Not having a DH or legitimate lefty bat in 2010.

The Manny Ramirez waiver claim. He's a piece of ****, and it didn't work...at all.

Now he's been given a $125 million payroll, and the Sox are at 8-12. It's early in the season, and I'm giving them until June 1 to get to .500 before calling for anyone's head, but if they don't make the playoffs this season, something has to give. Two playoff appearances in 11 years isn't enough in this division with the payroll level the Sox are at. Kenny's got to go if they don't make it to postseason.

This is the caveat with this management. They've had plenty of time to build a franchise that should be in the postseason every other year with their payroll and opponents. The Twins shouldn't be sniffing the Sox jock. But they're chewing it up, spitting it out until they get spit out in the postseason. Every year.

cws05champ
04-24-2011, 02:43 PM
When KW said we're All in...I didn't think he was actually bluffing with with a pair of 3's. This team is awful right now.

kittle42
04-24-2011, 03:34 PM
When KW said we're All in...I didn't think he was actually bluffing with with a pair of 3's. This team is awful right now.

Sox: "All in."

AL: "Call."

mcsoxfan
04-24-2011, 08:16 PM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:It is true that Kenny gave Guillen this team but Reinsdorf forced Guillen on Kenny in the first place. Kenny will never be allowed to pick the manager because Reinsdorf has a limit on what he will pay.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2011, 11:41 PM
The Twins shouldn't be sniffing the Sox jock. But they're chewing it up...Yuck!

Viva Medias B's
04-25-2011, 08:25 AM
KW said via text message in the Sun-Times that he will be in New York to answer questions tonight.

asindc
04-25-2011, 08:44 AM
That isn't true at all. Dunn isn't nearly as slow as the Thome/Konerko lumbering oafs. I think Dunn might even be faster than AJ at this point. While he isn't going to be a stolen base threat, he isn't like Konerko who can pretty much only score from first on a triple.

100% true. Dunn actually runs well for his size.

Hitmen77
04-25-2011, 08:50 AM
Kenny's not gotten results, either, but I think the general consensus (at least, this is the way that I feel about the whole thing) is that at least Kenny is going out there and making moves and trying to win. Ozzie consistently is making boneheaded decisions, bizarre lineups, and frankly, his personality just rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe I'm playing favorites, but I still feel a team can win with KW as it's GM. I'm losing faith that a team can win with Ozzie as its manager.

:shrug:

For the most part KW has supplied the talent, Ozzie has not gotten the most out of the talent supplied.

Spot on.

I don't think KW is perfect. But I still think his good transactions (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) outweigh his bad ones (2 Swisher trades, etc.) and he puts together a roster most years that should be competitive for the division title. My biggest complaint with Williams is that the Sox continue to have a crappy farm system under his watch. Since we don't have Yankees or Red Sox-type payroll, I think this has really hurt our chance to compete.

But that being said, even with his faults, KW has at least put together reasonably talented team most seasons.....and since July 2006, Sox teams managed by Ozzie Guillen have continued to underachieve when he's been given enough talent to win.

So, in summary, at least I see successes by KW that I can point to in addition to his failures. With Ozzie over the last 5 years, I have a hard time pointing to anything positive he brings to this team that makes it better and makes it play at least up to its level of talent.

asindc
04-25-2011, 09:00 AM
I've been one of KW's most ardent supporters on this board the past few years because of his aggressive "let's win now" style, even though I am (along with everyone else posting on WSI) also frustrated with the poor shape the farm system is in. While I expect this team to play much, much better over the next 5 months, I won't raise much objection if either KW or Ozzie are let go after the season if the team fails to produce. And this is coming from a "players are to blame when they play badly" guy.

Two things, though: 1) Let's evaluate the entire body of work, not just the failures in light of the current suckatude being displayed on the field. Let's look at the moves that worked well (i.e., Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Quentin), worked okay (i.e., Dotel, AJ, getting rid of Linebrink this year, Thome), and are a work in progress (i.e., Beckham, Sale, Mitchell, Peavy). 2) Who would you get to replace him that would provide better results? If it's Hahn, how do we know he would do things much differently? If it's a sabrmetrician, would it be someone like Beane (who seems to focus more on the process itself than the potential results of the process) or Epstein (probably the most well-rounded in terms of approach). If it's an Epstein-like GM, will JR allow him to spend well enough to fully implement that approach?

dickallen15
04-25-2011, 10:59 AM
Since winning the World Series, the White Sox are 369-374 against the rest of the American League. The definition of mediocre.

SI1020
04-25-2011, 11:47 AM
Since winning the World Series, the White Sox are 369-374 against the rest of the American League. The definition of mediocre. Since starting the 06 season at 56-29 they are 370-378.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Since winning the World Series, the White Sox are 369-374 against the rest of the American League. The definition of mediocre.

What we need is more interleague play!

kufram
04-25-2011, 04:46 PM
A really good team could win with no manager at all.

dickallen15
04-25-2011, 07:42 PM
What we need is more interleague play!
That's right or JR should petition to get transfered to the AL. Ozzie likes the NL style and the White Sox performance backs that up even with their softball team line ups 2,3,4,5 years ago.

Hitmen77
04-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Since winning the World Series, the White Sox are 369-374 against the rest of the American League. The definition of mediocre.

Since starting the 06 season at 56-29 they are 370-378.

Those numbers are a real disappointment given the talent we have had most of those 5 years.

What we need is more interleague play!

...or perhaps just send Ozzie off to manage an NL team.

Tragg
04-28-2011, 08:32 PM
Spot on.

I don't think KW is perfect. But I still think his good transactions (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) outweigh his bad ones (2 Swisher trades, etc.) and he puts together a roster most years that should be competitive for the division title.
Swisher trade was hardly the only poor trade. Recently, since the Quentin trade, he's acquired Pena, Teahen, Peavy, Jackson, Pierre and Flowers. And most of these guys cost a lot of money and have delivered close to zilch.
He could start by not trading with Kansas City or friendly Arizona.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-28-2011, 09:00 PM
Swisher trade was hardly the only poor trade. Recently, since the Quentin trade, he's acquired Pena, Teahen, Peavy, Jackson, Pierre and Flowers. And most of these guys cost a lot of money and have delivered close to zilch.
He could start by not trading with Kansas City or friendly Arizona.

KW has been fleeced for ALL of his pitching prospects and will be paying Peavy, Buehrle and Jackson $38.35 million for 2011.

To put that in perspective, Cleveland and KC's ENTIRE payrolls are $49.1 million and $36.1 respectively.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 09:07 PM
KW has been fleeced for ALL of his pitching prospects and will be paying Peavy, Buehrle and Jackson $38.35 million for 2011.

To put that in perspective, Cleveland and KC's ENTIRE payrolls are $49.1 million and $36.1 respectively.

:rolling: None of our pitching prospects are any good. What do you want, a rotation consisting of Gio, Hudson, Richard, Ely, and... Poreda? Yeah! 70 wins!

Cleveland and Kansas City. :rolling: You're striving to be the Indians and Royals. O-****ing-kay.

Maybe sit a few plays out, Champ.

A. Cavatica
04-28-2011, 09:20 PM
:rolling: None of our pitching prospects are any good. What do you want, a rotation consisting of Gio, Hudson, Richard, Ely, and... Poreda? Yeah! 70 wins!


What did Hudson do to get included with this group? He actually is pretty good, certainly better than the guy we traded him for.

WhiteSox5187
04-28-2011, 09:34 PM
What did Hudson do to get included with this group? He actually is pretty good, certainly better than the guy we traded him for.

And Gio would be one of our best pitchers last year and this year. And right now Hudson would be giving us the same sort of stuff Jackson is but for much cheaper.

Marqhead
04-28-2011, 09:36 PM
What did Hudson do to get included with this group? He actually is pretty good, certainly better than the guy we traded him for.

ERA 5.64
W-L 1-4
WHIP 1.38

Those are some great stats. Let's see how he does now that the NL has gotten a look at him.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 09:46 PM
What did Hudson do to get included with this group? He actually is pretty good, certainly better than the guy we traded him for.

I too love to cherry pick stats for my own argument.

Dan's a nice little pitcher to have at the back end of your rotation, but he's nothing special. Certainly not worth getting all worked up over.

Frater Perdurabo
04-28-2011, 09:49 PM
:rolling: None of our pitching prospects are any good. What do you want, a rotation consisting of Gio, Hudson, Richard, Ely, and... Poreda? Yeah! 70 wins!

Cleveland and Kansas City. :rolling: You're striving to be the Indians and Royals. O-****ing-kay.

Maybe sit a few plays out, Champ.

You have a point, but I think if we could undo the Swisher trade, we still have Gio and Sweeney. With Gio, it's likely the Sox would not have dealt Hudson for Jackson; with Sweeney a left-handed hitter for average (and likely more power at the Cell instead of Oakland), they would not have traded for Teahen. So, subtract Teahen and Jackson, and add Gio, Hudson and Sweeney, and I think the team is in better shape today. Certainly there would be more payroll space that KW could have used to upgrade elsewhere. Maybe with Sweeney in LF, KW doesn't trade for Ely and Link for Pierre. Then, perhaps Gio, Ely and Hudson (as a PTBNL) form the core of a package that KW could have used to trade to the Jays for Roy Halladay.

WhiteSox5187
04-28-2011, 09:49 PM
ERA 5.64
W-L 1-4
WHIP 1.38

Those are some great stats. Let's see how he does now that the NL has gotten a look at him.

His ERA and WHIP are all better than Jackson's.

Jackson is 2-2, 5.86 ERA and a 1.7 WHIP.

TDog
04-28-2011, 09:50 PM
What did Hudson do to get included with this group? He actually is pretty good, certainly better than the guy we traded him for.

Hudson is 1-4 with an ERA of 5.64 in a league where the pitcher hits. He beat the Phillies in his last start but gave up 10 hits in six innings while lowing his ERA by about one-third of a run.

Hudson is getting hit very hard this year. Consistently.

JB98
04-28-2011, 09:56 PM
You have a point, but I think if we could undo the Swisher trade, we still have Gio and Sweeney. With Gio, it's likely the Sox would not have dealt Hudson for Jackson; with Sweeney a left-handed hitter for average (and likely more power at the Cell instead of Oakland), they would not have traded for Teahen. So, subtract Teahen and Jackson, and add Gio, Hudson and Sweeney, and I think the team is in better shape today. Certainly there would be more payroll space that KW could have used to upgrade elsewhere. Maybe with Sweeney in LF, KW doesn't trade for Ely and Link for Pierre. Then, perhaps Gio, Ely and Hudson (as a PTBNL) form the core of a package that KW could have used to trade to the Jays for Roy Halladay.

That's where your point goes astray. I don't think middle-of-the-rotation fodder would have been enough to get Halladay.

Wouldn't mind having Gio on this roster, although I was never sold on Sweeney. I think Hudson is all right, just overrated by some WSI posters.

WhiteSox5187
04-28-2011, 09:57 PM
Hudson is 1-4 with an ERA of 5.64 in a league where the pitcher hits. He beat the Phillies in his last start but gave up 10 hits in six innings while lowing his ERA by about one-third of a run.

Hudson is getting hit very hard this year. Consistently.

Guys are hitting .301 off of Jackson. Here's the thing, neither one of these guys are doing that well right now. But Hudson is cheaper and under control for six years and also has a higher ceiling. Jackson is pretty much a known commodity at this point, Hudson is not. He is probably going to be nothing more than a solid number three or four starter, but that's pretty much what Jackson is. That trade was just an expensive lateral.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-28-2011, 09:57 PM
:rolling: None of our pitching prospects are any good. What do you want, a rotation consisting of Gio, Hudson, Richard, Ely, and... Poreda? Yeah! 70 wins!

Cleveland and Kansas City. :rolling: You're striving to be the Indians and Royals. O-****ing-kay.

Maybe sit a few plays out, Champ.

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills Tex.

asindc
04-28-2011, 09:59 PM
That's where your point goes astray. I don't think middle-of-the-rotation fodder would have been enough to get Halladay.

Wouldn't mind having Gio on this roster, although I was never sold on Sweeney. I think Hudson is all right, just overrated by some WSI posters.

I concur. Getting Halladay (or Lee, for that matter) with that package is a drunk sports talk radio caller's fantasy.

Frater Perdurabo
04-28-2011, 10:10 PM
That's where your point goes astray. I don't think middle-of-the-rotation fodder would have been enough to get Halladay.

Wouldn't mind having Gio on this roster, although I was never sold on Sweeney. I think Hudson is all right, just overrated by some WSI posters.

You're probably right. That package alone probably isn't enough for Halladay. Still those younger, cheaper players allow KW to sign free agents or make trades to upgrade elsewhere, perhaps for a better defensive outfielder who can lead off, or better bullpen help.

Tragg
04-28-2011, 10:20 PM
:rolling: None of our pitching prospects are any good. What do you want, a rotation consisting of Gio, Hudson, Richard, Ely, and... Poreda? Yeah! 70 wins!



Well, what the heck have Peavy and Jackson done at, oh, 30+ times the salary?
Jackson's one of those phony baloney AJ Burnett types....he throws hard and strikes a bunch out and people think he's something special. Not even close.

I know he hasn't given up terribly much. But he's brought in much either.

Gio, Richard....these guys could fill roster spots better than, oh Tony Pena. Sweeney was completely mis-evaluated by Guillen and, again, could deliver "replacement level" at minimum salary. (

TDog
04-28-2011, 10:33 PM
Guys are hitting .301 off of Jackson. Here's the thing, neither one of these guys are doing that well right now. But Hudson is cheaper and under control for six years and also has a higher ceiling. Jackson is pretty much a known commodity at this point, Hudson is not. He is probably going to be nothing more than a solid number three or four starter, but that's pretty much what Jackson is. That trade was just an expensive lateral.

Jackson last year was much better than Hudson was for the White Sox last season. Jackson this year is much better than Hudson was for the Sox last season, even if Jackson is equally as bad as Hudson is this year. If Hudson were playing for a contender, his continued presence in the starting rotation would be in doubt.

When the Diamondbacks eventually deal Hudson, they won't get as much as you might expect in return.

WhiteSox5187
04-28-2011, 10:45 PM
Jackson last year was much better than Hudson was for the White Sox last season. Jackson this year is much better than Hudson was for the Sox last season, even if Jackson is equally as bad as Hudson is this year. If Hudson were playing for a contender, his continued presence in the starting rotation would be in doubt.

When the Diamondbacks eventually deal Hudson, they won't get as much as you might expect in return.

Oh see, I didn't know you have been to the future as you obviously must have as you know that the Diamondbacks will deal Hudson AND how Jackson will do the rest of THIS year. It's funny though because your visit to the future must have made you forget some of the past, because in 2008 Jackson was dropped from the Rays' rotation when they were in the playoffs.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 11:04 PM
Gio, Richard....these guys could fill roster spots better than, oh Tony Pena. Sweeney was completely mis-evaluated by Guillen and, again, could deliver "replacement level" at minimum salary. (

Gio and Richard, I guess, but if you bother to look at some stats aside from W-L and ERA (you know, stats that actually gauge pitching) you'll get less and less excited about them. First, everyone loves to shred Peavy because his success was at PETCO. Uh, where do you think Clayton pitches? And his peripherals are nothing special, high WHIP, low K/BB, K/9 ratios. Meh. You're right, at best, he replaces Pena on the roster. Wowzers, that's obviously all that's keeping us from being a juggernaut.

Gio meanwhile, has the most ridiculous home/road splits... ever. Seriously, the guy is strictly a product of the Coliseum. God bless him, he's learned how to pitch there, but it's very, very debatable he'd be worth anything anywhere else.

And please tell me you're not banging the drum for Sweeney. Sweeney? Awesome, Lillibridge-esque production for only $1 million more this season.

I gotta tell ya, these are championship-level transactions you're proposing. You must have gone to Stanford for two years.

doublem23
04-28-2011, 11:08 PM
Oh see, I didn't know you have been to the future as you obviously must have as you know that the Diamondbacks will deal Hudson AND how Jackson will do the rest of THIS year. It's funny though because your visit to the future must have made you forget some of the past, because in 2008 Jackson was dropped from the Rays' rotation when they were in the playoffs.

Yes, oh no, Edwin Jackson was only in the starting rotation all year for a team that won 97 games, so he obviously blows.

TDog
04-28-2011, 11:55 PM
Oh see, I didn't know you have been to the future as you obviously must have as you know that the Diamondbacks will deal Hudson AND how Jackson will do the rest of THIS year. It's funny though because your visit to the future must have made you forget some of the past, because in 2008 Jackson was dropped from the Rays' rotation when they were in the playoffs.

If you can't see into the future, it's ridiculous to lament the White Sox dealing for Hudson in an effort to win. The here and now last summer was that Hudson couldn't get American League hitters, out and he and Garcia back to back were putting a strain on the bullpen (a strain that ultimately proved the story of how the Sox lost it in August).

The current here and now is that Hudson is a struggling back-of-the-rotation starting pitcher for a bottom-of-the-standings team. He showed some promise at the end of the 2010 season when he came to the National League. Scouting has caught up with him. If he doesn't adjust and the Diamondbacks believe a prospect deserves a starting shoot, he could end up in the bullpen on a team that tends to trade their underachieving pitchers. I don't know that Hudson will be traded, but he seems to fit the profile of a player who will be.

Peavy hasn't won many games for the Sox. Jackson has had his ups and downs and has ultimately disappointed. I was one of the few at WSI to lament losing Richard in the Peavy deal. But teams that are trying to win try to do better. The outrage in acquiring Jackson was his expense, but it didn't prevent the Sox from re-signing Konerko or signing Dunn. Anyone who believe Hudson would have done better than Jackson last year, didn't watch Hudson pitch for the Sox last year. Anyone who believe Hudson would do better than Jackson for the Sox this year hasn't seen Hudson pitch for the Diamondbacks this year.

I am guessing that if the Sox didn't deal Hudson last year, fans would be complaining that not doing so cost them the division.

A. Cavatica
04-29-2011, 09:01 AM
I too love to cherry pick stats for my own argument.

Dan's a nice little pitcher to have at the back end of your rotation, but he's nothing special. Certainly not worth getting all worked up over.

I haven't cherry picked any stats. Hudson's had 144 major league IP now, so you can look at his career numbers and get a decent idea of how he compares to Jackson's career numbers.

Hudson career ERA: 3.24 WHIP: 1.122
Jackson career ERA: 4.66 WHIP: 1.493

It's not even close.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 09:38 AM
This got me to thinking yesterday - how exactly is this team "All In?" At base, it is basically the same completely infuriating and inconsistent squad from last season. Same LF, CF, RF, SS, 2B, 1B, C. Basically the same rotation. The bullpen had turnover, but not drastic improvement.

All In was re-signing Paulie (a very good player), AJ (a pretty mediocre player) and adding, at the core, one guy in Dunn (a move which I still applaud).

There were plenty more problems with this team than simply the DH from last season.

doublem23
04-29-2011, 10:07 AM
I haven't cherry picked any stats. Hudson's had 144 major league IP now, so you can look at his career numbers and get a decent idea of how he compares to Jackson's career numbers.

Hudson career ERA: 3.24 WHIP: 1.122
Jackson career ERA: 4.66 WHIP: 1.493

It's not even close.

144 IP? That's not even 1 season's worth. There have been PLENTY of pitchers who have been able to put together 1 nice season of work amidst a career of sucking.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-29-2011, 10:07 AM
I haven't cherry picked any stats. Hudson's had 144 major league IP now, so you can look at his career numbers and get a decent idea of how he compares to Jackson's career numbers.

Hudson career ERA: 3.24 WHIP: 1.122
Jackson career ERA: 4.66 WHIP: 1.493

It's not even close.

Jackson's been mostly terrible his whole career. The only people that don't think Hudson is an elite level prospect are KW and his apologists on this site. Everything that I've read about Hudson is glowing. This was an extremely foolish trade.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 10:11 AM
Jackson's been mostly terrible his whole career. The only people that don't think Hudson is an elite level prospect are KW and his apologists on this site. Everything that I've read about Hudson is glowing. This was an extremely foolish trade.

Agreed that Edwin Jackson has pretty much always stunk.

Disagree that Hudson is "elite level." In fact, it made me chuckle. In no way am I a KW supporter, and he certainly should have gotten something other than WHIP king Edwin Jackson for Hudson, but you must be confusing Daniel with Tim from ten years ago. Hudson is not really anything special. That he was the best pitcher in the Sox' minor league system doesn't say all that much for him.

doublem23
04-29-2011, 10:11 AM
Jackson's been mostly terrible his whole career. The only people that don't think Hudson is an elite level prospect are KW and his apologists on this site. Everything that I've read about Hudson is glowing. This was an extremely foolish trade.

Kind of funny because the only people I've read that peg Dan Hudson to be anything more than a marginal MLB starter are the Tin foil hat wearing brigade around here.

:shrug:

Remember, everyone wrote Jose Contreras off as a lost cause well before the Sox acquired him. Not saying Jackson is worth the money and effort, but come on... Dan Hudson? We reacquired him this off-season, his name is Phil Humber. Actually, Humber might be better.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-29-2011, 10:19 AM
Agreed that Edwin Jackson has pretty much always stunk.

Disagree that Hudson is "elite level." In fact, it made me chuckle. In no way am I a KW supporter, and he certainly should have gotten something other than WHIP king Edwin Jackson for Hudson, but you must be confusing Daniel with Tim from ten years ago. Hudson is not really anything special. That he was the best pitcher in the Sox' minor league system doesn't say all that much for him.

We can disagree on Hudson, but that's really the crux of the issue.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 10:27 AM
We can disagree on Hudson, but that's really the crux of the issue.

In my opinion, it's up there with KW's biggest blunders. That whole deal last season with Dunn/Jackson/Hudson and all that was a mess. I'm still not convinced we were ever really supposed to have Edwin Jackson. I mean, really, why the hell would we want him, anyway?

asindc
04-29-2011, 10:27 AM
We can disagree on Hudson, but that's really the crux of the issue.

If that is the crux of the issue (and I agree that it is), then there is no point in pretending Hudson was or is an elite prospect. The issue isn't that we gave up great value in Hudson (we didn't), but that Jackson will never figure it out. The only saving grace in this trade is that it is still early, Jackson has shown he can effectively pitch when he focuses and maintains control, and we are only on the hook for this year.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-29-2011, 10:27 AM
Yes, oh no, Edwin Jackson was only in the starting rotation all year for a team that won 97 games, so he obviously blows.

Interesting how you disparage Orlando Cabrera for "bouncing around" teams yet you have no issues with Edwin Jackson being on his 5th team in 8 years before he even reaches age 27.

That's consistent.

asindc
04-29-2011, 10:30 AM
Interesting how you disparage Orlando Cabrera for "bouncing around" teams yet you have no issues with Edwin Jackson being on his 5th team in 8 years before he even reaches age 27.

That's consistent.

Good point. There is a reason why so many teams have thrown up their hands in frustration with Jackson, and we saw a sorry example of it last night.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Interesting how you disparage Orlando Cabrera for "bouncing around" teams yet you have no issues with Edwin Jackson being on his 5th team in 8 years before he even reaches age 27.

That's consistent.

Good point. There is a reason why so many teams have thrown up their hands in frustration with Jackson, and we saw a sorry example of it last night.

Isn't the difference that Cabrera is regarded as not that great of a teammate whereas Jackson just flat out stinks?

Honestly, I can't think of too many players I was more disappointed in acquiring at the time of the acquisition than Edwin Jackson. I think Jaime Navarro made me feel worse. That might be it. Ritchie, Teahen, and Mackowiak had me more excited than Edwin Jackson and his proven track record of slop.

doublem23
04-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Interesting how you disparage Orlando Cabrera for "bouncing around" teams yet you have no issues with Edwin Jackson being on his 5th team in 8 years before he even reaches age 27.

That's consistent.

There's a world of difference between an aging shortstop who people try to label as a "winner" and a young pitcher with loads of talent that can't put it together, if you don't see that difference, I don't know what to tell you.

Dan Haren, for example, has been on 4 teams in his 8 year MLB career. Does he suck, too?

doublem23
04-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Isn't the difference that Cabrera is regarded as not that great of a teammate whereas Jackson just flat out stinks?

Pretty much. Jackson bounces around because everyone wants a chance to "fix" him and turn him into the pitcher he could become. Cabrera bounces around because he's a prick.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-29-2011, 10:37 AM
There's a world of difference between an aging shortstop who people try to label as a "winner" and a young pitcher with loads of talent that can't put it together, if you don't see that difference, I don't know what to tell you.

Dan Haren, for example, has been on 4 teams in his 8 year MLB career. Does he suck, too?

Based on your logic he must be a prick.

doublem23
04-29-2011, 10:39 AM
Based on your logic he must be a prick.

:thumbsup:

OK

Based on your logic, he must be awful.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-29-2011, 10:41 AM
:thumbsup:

OK

Based on your logic, he must be awful.


Except that unlike Jackson, his numbers haven't been awful.

asindc
04-29-2011, 10:42 AM
Based on your logic he must be a prick.

:thumbsup:

OK

Based on your logic, he must be awful.

Well, based on what we know, Haren might be a prick for all we know, but we do know for certain that he is not awful.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 10:51 AM
Is argument around here getting worse in quality than ever or is it just my imagination?

asindc
04-29-2011, 10:56 AM
Is argument around here getting worse in quality than ever or is it just my imagination?

Getting worse?

kittle42
04-29-2011, 11:00 AM
Getting worse?

That's what I thought. :cool:

tstrike2000
04-29-2011, 11:25 AM
I haven't cherry picked any stats. Hudson's had 144 major league IP now, so you can look at his career numbers and get a decent idea of how he compares to Jackson's career numbers.

Hudson career ERA: 3.24 WHIP: 1.122
Jackson career ERA: 4.66 WHIP: 1.493

It's not even close.

Not close at the moment, but as JB pointed out last night, Hudson's currently 1-4 with a 5.64 ERA. Also, IIRC, Hudson was projected to be a middle of the rotation rotation and not an ace. I'm not saying it couldn't be a bad trade for KW, but it could also end up being a wash.

JB98
04-29-2011, 01:09 PM
Not close at the moment, but as JB pointed out last night, Hudson's currently 1-4 with a 5.64 ERA. Also, IIRC, Hudson was projected to be a middle of the rotation rotation and not an ace. I'm not saying it couldn't be a bad trade for KW, but it could also end up being a wash.

Following up, I want to add that last July people were clamoring for KW to bolster the starting rotation. Peavy had just gone down. Hudson had made a few starts and, well, he didn't throw the ball well. He wasn't ready to do the job, plain and simple. The Sox were trying to win last year. They needed a pitcher to plug that hole, and Jackson did just that. The Sox didn't win the division, but it wasn't because of Edwin Jackson.

If Jackson gets it together this year, it could still be a good trade for the Sox. He could either A) help the Sox get back in the race, or B) be a tradeable piece if the Sox fall out of it.

What people need to understand about Hudson is he's just a guy. That's all. Yeah, he was the best Sox pitching prospect, but that's not saying all that much. I look for Hudson to have a Garland-like career. He's going to do all right for himself. He might even help a team win a championship sometime in the future. But let's not speak of him like we traded a future ace or something.

Clayton Richard, same deal. Yeah, he's a big-league pitcher. He'll throw some innings and win some games. But he ain't Cy Young and I'm not going to waste time lamenting the fact that he was traded. The funny thing about Richard is people wanted him dead when he was on the Sox. He didn't throw enough strikes, couldn't field his position, blah, blah, blah. I always defended the kid and talked him up as an OK option as a 4 or 5 starter. Now that he's gone, people are in love with him and want him back. It's crazy.

Frankly, a farm system should be able to churn out a middle-of-the-rotation quality starter for you every year. Dudes like Hudson and Richard should be fairly easy to replace, unless you have a real horse**** farm system, which unfortunately is the case for the White Sox. That's a bigger issue for this organization than any of these trades. When we speak of some of the deals KW has made, you can make reasonable arguments for or against nearly all of them. But there's really no defending the poor farm system this organization has. It doesn't produce much of anything, and that is a noose around this regime's neck.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 01:17 PM
What people need to understand about Hudson is he's just a guy. That's all. Yeah, he was the best Sox pitching prospect, but that's not saying all that much. I look for Hudson to have a Garland-like career. He's going to do all right for himself. He might even help a team win a championship sometime in the future. But let's not speak of him like we traded a future ace or something.

Clayton Richard, same deal. Yeah, he's a big-league pitcher. He'll throw some innings and win some games. But he ain't Cy Young and I'm not going to waste time lamenting the fact that he was traded. The funny thing about Richard is people wanted him dead when he was on the Sox. He didn't throw enough strikes, couldn't field his position, blah, blah, blah. I always defended the kid and talked him up as an OK option as a 4 or 5 starter. Now that he's gone, people are in love with him and want him back. It's crazy.

AMEN! We may not be happy with the guys KW got in the trades involving Hudson and Richard, but I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the guys we gave away. Richard's numbers in PETCO are insanely better than his numbers outside of PETCO for his career. Look at them, really! Hudson, while the best of the Sox minor league system, is no gem, either.

Tragg
04-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Fine - Richard and Hudson and Gio and Allen aren't up to our high standards. Are the players he got for them? Who has Williams traded for in the last 2 seasons to improve this team?

kittle42
04-29-2011, 03:03 PM
Fine - Richard and Hudson and Gio and Allen aren't up to our high standards. Are the players he got for them? Who has Williams traded for in the last 2 seasons to improve this team?

Nobody, really.

Frater Perdurabo
04-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Nobody, really.

KW traded young, cheap, home-grown mediocrity, for older, more expensive, imported mediocrity.

I'd rather have the former, because it frees up the budget for better free agent talent.

doublem23
04-29-2011, 04:01 PM
KW traded young, cheap, home-grown mediocrity, for older, more expensive, imported mediocrity.

I'd rather have the former, because it frees up the budget for better free agent talent.

So then you're just bumping the young, crappy homegrown talent for the free agents. You realize if the Sox kept all their prospects from the last 5-10 years, they'd basically all need to be replaced, right? Our lineup, by my best guesses would be:

C - Pierzynski/Flowers
1B - Brandon Allen
2B - Gordon Beckham
SS - Alexei Ramirez
3B - Brent Morel
LF - Josh Fields
CF - Ryan Sweeney
RF - Carlos Quentin
DH - Paul Konerko

Utility - Chris Getz, Lillibridge...

That team suuuuuuucks

asindc
04-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Following up, I want to add that last July people were clamoring for KW to bolster the starting rotation. Peavy had just gone down. Hudson had made a few starts and, well, he didn't throw the ball well. He wasn't ready to do the job, plain and simple. The Sox were trying to win last year. They needed a pitcher to plug that hole, and Jackson did just that. The Sox didn't win the division, but it wasn't because of Edwin Jackson.

If Jackson gets it together this year, it could still be a good trade for the Sox. He could either A) help the Sox get back in the race, or B) be a tradeable piece if the Sox fall out of it.

What people need to understand about Hudson is he's just a guy. That's all. Yeah, he was the best Sox pitching prospect, but that's not saying all that much. I look for Hudson to have a Garland-like career. He's going to do all right for himself. He might even help a team win a championship sometime in the future. But let's not speak of him like we traded a future ace or something.

Clayton Richard, same deal. Yeah, he's a big-league pitcher. He'll throw some innings and win some games. But he ain't Cy Young and I'm not going to waste time lamenting the fact that he was traded. The funny thing about Richard is people wanted him dead when he was on the Sox. He didn't throw enough strikes, couldn't field his position, blah, blah, blah. I always defended the kid and talked him up as an OK option as a 4 or 5 starter. Now that he's gone, people are in love with him and want him back. It's crazy.

Frankly, a farm system should be able to churn out a middle-of-the-rotation quality starter for you every year. Dudes like Hudson and Richard should be fairly easy to replace, unless you have a real horse**** farm system, which unfortunately is the case for the White Sox. That's a bigger issue for this organization than any of these trades. When we speak of some of the deals KW has made, you can make reasonable arguments for or against nearly all of them. But there's really no defending the poor farm system this organization has. It doesn't produce much of anything, and that is a noose around this regime's neck.

Fine - Richard and Hudson and Gio and Allen aren't up to our high standards. Are the players he got for them? Who has Williams traded for in the last 2 seasons to improve this team?

No one.

Now, if the question is... are the players we got better than the players we traded, I would say:

Flowers: Probably not.
Lillibridge: Probably not.
Jon Gilmore: Don't know, but glad the trade was made in any case.
Santos Rodriguez: Don't know, but glad the trade was made in any case.

Peavy: Yes, he is better than any of the guys we traded for him.

Teahen: Nope.

Jackson: Yes. The problem isn't that he is a mediocre talent, it's that he is as likely to give his worst as he is his best any time he takes the mound. Hudson is just as likely to be consistently mediocre.

Pierre: Yes.

Kyle Cofield: Don't know, but glad the trade was made in any case.

Hitmen77
04-29-2011, 04:28 PM
This got me to thinking yesterday - how exactly is this team "All In?" At base, it is basically the same completely infuriating and inconsistent squad from last season. Same LF, CF, RF, SS, 2B, 1B, C. Basically the same rotation. The bullpen had turnover, but not drastic improvement.

All In was re-signing Paulie (a very good player), AJ (a pretty mediocre player) and adding, at the core, one guy in Dunn (a move which I still applaud).

There were plenty more problems with this team than simply the DH from last season.

They're "all in" in terms of budget/payroll, not overall talent.

That being said, last year's team did win 88 games (albeit in a wildly inconsistent manner). I guess I was wishfully thinking that adding a few more pieces would put us in the 90+ win territory.

I thought the offense would be better because we added Dunn and I was hoping that Beckham would improve over a down sophomore year. I wasn't expecting defensive meltdowns to cost us games to start this year. I was worried that the bullpen would be weaker, but I wasn't expecting a total meltdown to start the Sox in their downward spiral.

Tragg
04-29-2011, 05:04 PM
KW traded young, cheap, home-grown mediocrity, for older, more expensive, imported mediocrity.


That sums it up.

And even Dunn...he's an excellent hitter. But he's a walk-strikeout-homer guy in the Jim Thome mold (not Thome's level of skill)....that is not the Guillen preference or style - he'd rather a Vlad Guerro type. It's like when he brought in Swisher- just not a great fit: Guillen gets incensed when bats sit on the shoulder, lots of walks or not.

JB98
04-29-2011, 06:21 PM
Fine - Richard and Hudson and Gio and Allen aren't up to our high standards. Are the players he got for them? Who has Williams traded for in the last 2 seasons to improve this team?

The best of those three pitchers (Gio) would be the No. 4 starter on this staff.

Allen wouldn't start for this team. The Sox have Konerko and Dunn.

Seriously, it's not worth lamenting the loss of those players. It is OK to lament the underachievement of some of the players we do have.

kittle42
04-29-2011, 07:10 PM
Seriously, it's not worth lamenting the loss of those players. It is OK to lament the underachievement of some of the players we do have.

You are correct that lamenting the loss of any of these guys is silly. But what we can lament is what we got in return.

JB98
04-29-2011, 07:27 PM
You are correct that lamenting the loss of any of these guys is silly. But what we can lament is what we got in return.

And that's fine. I thought the Peavy gamble was one worth taking at the time. It just hasn't worked.

Jackson, I was in wait-and-see mode. I think the jury is still out.

I actually didn't mind when he traded Gio and Sweeney for Swisher either. Then, I watched Swisher play in a Sox uniform and realized it was a bad trade.

Tragg
04-29-2011, 09:35 PM
The best of those three pitchers (Gio) would be the No. 4 starter on this staff.

Allen wouldn't start for this team. The Sox have Konerko and Dunn.

Seriously, it's not worth lamenting the loss of those players. It is OK to lament the underachievement of some of the players we do have.
I think they could do work in the bullpen....it doesn't take much to best Tony Pena. We could keep Sale in AAA and prep him for bigger and better things....no telling what we're doing to him now.

And the point of my post was who did we get for these assets, modest as they may be? Nothing but massive payroll.

asindc
04-29-2011, 09:58 PM
I think they could do work in the bullpen....it doesn't take much to best Tony Pena. We could keep Sale in AAA and prep him for bigger and better things....no telling what we're doing to him now.

And the point of my post was who did we get for these assets, modest as they may be? Nothing but massive payroll.

You might be willing to go through lean years (not year) to allow guys like Gio, DLS, Hudson, and Richard to develop, but many Sox fans are not. Pena sucks (just like at least one overpaid veteran bullpen pitcher on every contending team), but the performances of Crain and Sale tonight, and Thornton so far this season are out of character and obviously cannot be blamed on management. If you anticipated that this team would perform this badly thus far this season, then you are in very rare company.

While not one poster here at WSI has expressed approval at the shape of farm system, frankly, unless you want the Sox to go thru a San Fran-like rebuilding effort, then griping about trading away guys like Hudson, Richard, Poreda, and Ely strikes me as nothing more than Monday morning GMing.

tsoxman
04-29-2011, 10:39 PM
You might be willing to go through lean years (not year) to allow guys like Gio, DLS, Hudson, and Richard to develop, but many Sox fans are not. Pena sucks (just like at least one overpaid veteran bullpen pitcher on every contending team), but the performances of Crain and Sale tonight, and Thornton so far this season are out of character and obviously cannot be blamed on management. If you anticipated that this team would perform this badly thus far this season, then you are in very rare company.

While not one poster here at WSI has expressed approval at the shape of farm system, frankly, unless you want the Sox to go thru a San Fran-like rebuilding effort, then griping about trading away guys like Hudson, Richard, Poreda, and Ely strikes me as nothing more than Monday morning GMing.
I don't know where to start with this. First of all, don't asume that everybody approved of the trading away of the young talent that you mentioned. I did not like the idea of trading away our better and cheaper younger players for expensive veterans at the time these deals were consummated. The Peavy trade was particularly maddening. Did you not see how injury probe Jake Peavy was when the Sox traded for him? he was even on the DL at the time they traded for him. Stupid!

Have you also not noticed that since the end of the steroid era, there is a trend towards player development and youth? Even the Red Sox and Yankees understand this. To have a minor leaue system this bad is inexcusable. And please don't use the 'Dave Wilder's exploits ruined our Latin American talent base' excuse. Wilder was a close friend of Williams and all of that crap happen under Kenny's watch.

To your point about rebuilding, if you are a bad team with a bloated payroll and a discriminating fan base, the decisiion to rebuild will be made for you. That is, ownership will be forced to rebuild because the fanbase that you claim will not tolerate a rebuilding effort will not show up to support this awful product. Gas will be $5/ gallon and frankly, there are better entainment options available.

If you squander enough resources like young talent and perhaps more importantly, money, in this cashed strapped economy like Kenny has, eventually it will catch up with you.

There is no, and I repeat no reason that Jerry should not hand the reins to the GM in waiting, Rick Hahn. Kenny needs to go, even if it's upstairs in a John Paxon-like role. What's the worse that could happen? Make the playoffs once in six years? Oops! I guess that has already happened, counting this year!

asindc
04-29-2011, 10:44 PM
I don't know where to start with this. First of all, don't asume that everybody approved of the trading away of the young talent that you mentioned. I did not like the idea of trading away our better and cheaper younger players for expensive veterans at the time these deals were consummated. The Peavy trade was particularly maddening. Did you not see how injury probe Jake Peavy was when the Sox traded for him? he was even on the DL at the time they traded for him. Stupid!

Have you also not noticed that since the end of the steroid era, there is a trend towards player development and youth? Even the Red Sox and Yankees understand this. To have a minor leaue system this bad is inexcusable. And please don't use the 'Dave Wilder's exploits ruined our Latin American talent base' excuse. Wilder was a close friend of Williams and all of that crap happen under Kenny's watch.

To your point about rebuilding, if you are a bad team with a bloated payroll and a discriminating fan base, the decisiion to rebuild will be made for you. That is, ownership will be forced to rebuild because the fanbase that you claim will not tolerate a rebuilding effort will not show up to support this awful product. Gas will be $5/ gallon and frankly, there are better entainment options available.

If you squander enough resources like young talent and perhaps more importantly, money, in this cashed strapped economy like Kenny has, eventually it will catch up with you.

There is no, and I repeat no reason that Jerry should not hand the reins to the GM in waiting, Rick Hahn. Kenny needs to go, even if it's upstairs in a John Paxon-like role. What's the worse that could happen? Make the playoffs once in six years? Oops! I guess that has already happened, counting this year!

Nothing about my response to Tragg's post assumes anything. By the way, I don't know if you noticed my comment about the farm system.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:00 PM
I would be okay with replacing both of them. As others have mentioned, KW has basically failed with the farm system. It's been an ongoing joke for years. He's been almost as bad as Harrelson was years ago.

Ozzie has worn out his welcome, his act is tired. He's more of a gambler than a tactician. He won in 2005, but it's been snake eyes ever since.

Same can be said for the GM.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:11 PM
I think Kenny gets way too much credit and I think so much of it is for being "all in" and as others have said, people remember the Schueler era. But really, I think that Kenny is an overwhelmingly mediocre GM. This is a guy who once said "I thought our offense would over come our lack of defense." He contributed his success in 2005 because he said "We decided to build around pitching and defense," to which my reaction would have been "It took you five years to realize that pitching and defense is what wins championships?"

A prime example to me of his foolishness that he doesn't get blamed for somehow is that last year when Ozzie said he wanted "more versatility" from his DH what he really meant (I suspect) is that he wanted a DH who could also occasionally play in the field so he could rest Konerko. So Kenny goes out and gives him Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones. Ozzie gets a lot of blame for using those guys as the DH, but that's who Kenny gave him!

Kenny likes to think of himself as a gambler, and he is, but a lot of his gambles haven't worked out. He gave away the farm for Peavy while Peavy was on the DL and while those guys haven't helped, they were still trading chips we could have worked with. He gave away the farm again for Swisher who Kenny thought would be a good lead off guy and that lasted all of one year. He traded away a good young pitcher in Masset for the ancient Ken Griffey Junior and then thought that Junior could still play center. He thought in 2009 that Contreras and Colon would work as a number 4 and 5 starter for the Sox. Kenny is every bit as guilty for misjudging talent that Ozzie is. Kenny is also SOLELY responsible for the state that the farm system is in. Kenny is also responsible for financially handcuffing this team with a bunch of veterans going "all in." If it works and we win, great, but let's not act like it took some sort of genius baseball mind to have the idea to sign Dunn, Konerko and AJ. Jerry gets the credit there for opening up the books, any other GM would have done the same thing given the same financial resources that Kenny was given. And if we don't make the playoffs well then we are going to have a lot of expensive guys who are in their 30s that no one else would want, no one on the farm to help and no money to sign any other pieces next year.

Wow, when it comes to your DH comments, we are dead on. Even with the crap KW gave Oz, they still scored more runs and won more games in 2010 than 2009. But yet, everyone wants to blame Oz for not wanting Thome. I'm guessing these are the same people that didn't want Rowand traded for Thome.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:14 PM
KW has consistently put us in a position to win. Teams not named Red Sox Phillies or Yankees will have holes in their line up and pitching. We have to count on someone doing better than expected (Thornton, Sale, Santos,Morel Lillibeast) to make this team good. Ozzie, IMO had done mediocre since 2005. If he doesn't make the playoff this year then IMO he has done badly and there should be a change. or if we fall behind more than 10 games

But yet KW has not done anything either since 2005. Remember, it was him that tried to duplicate the 2006 Tigers pen with young firearms in 2007.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:19 PM
From what I gather, many fans like Kenny because of his 'all in' approach and that unlike previous Sox GMs he makes deals that the 'fans' like. To that end, I think of Kenny as the parent that always gives his kids everything they ask for. The typical Kenny moves are always popular and the media has a field day with them especially during the trading deadline, but truthfully, many of these recent blockbusters have been disasters.

Slowly but surely, we are starting to see some of these same fans (and media) that loved these deals realize how much this team is screwed going forward and how much it was Kenny that put the franchise in the position that it is in now. We have no farm system so there is little promise for the future and we have few trading chips on which to to rebuild. If I were the owner, I would not place any confidence whatsoever in Kenny to build this organization. Notice that I said build because it was never an organization that developed talent consistently.

If you look around baseball today, the current trend is youth and player developement-not like it was 10 years ago when you could rely on a steroid-addled veterans to contend.

With Rick Hahn waiting in the wings, there is nothing that should stop uncle Jerry from handing him the reins. If he doesn't some other team will. And, in recognition of the fact that Kenny did win a WC, give him his due too and promote him to a higher level 'John Paxon-like' role. I doubt Kenny would last long in a position like this, but so what. This franchise needs to move on with a new GM and likely a new field manager. Fans have to realize that when this team wins again, there will be little resemblance of what it is now. It's time for some new faces and not just the ones on the field.

As long as the product on the filed is what it is, and there is no change in management, I am voting with my feet this year.

:gulp:My man, you get it. I know I'm sounding like a huge Oz supporter with some of my other comments but you my friend nailed it on the head with the point of my thread. Oz does deserve some blame but don't let the GM off the hook.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:24 PM
Please. Ozzie was in love with Kotsay ever since we got him from the Red Sox. After the 2009 season, Ozzie was asked "What's the first thing we need to do this offseason?" and he responded with "Resign Mark Kotsay". Ozzie wanted to do things his way last season and Kenny, for right or for wrong, appeased him and tried to build the team around what Ozzie wanted. It wasn't until the end of the season, where it was evident that Ozzie's rotating DH garbage wasn't working, that Kenny went out and got Manny, but by then the bullpen had already blown it for us and it was too late.

Kenny deserves his fair share of blame for having a non-existent farm system, but Kenny also put us in a wonderful position to run away with the division this season (even with the closer situation). This season, so far, is mostly on Ozzie, IMO.

Oz is not responsible for Juan's dropped balls or Rios' dropped ball or Beckham's bat disappearing or Dunn's disappearing or Morel's disappearing or... screw it... if you don't get the point by now you never will.

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:30 PM
Swisher trade was hardly the only poor trade. Recently, since the Quentin trade, he's acquired Pena, Teahen, Peavy, Jackson, Pierre and Flowers. And most of these guys cost a lot of money and have delivered close to zilch.
He could start by not trading with Kansas City or friendly Arizona.

And it looks like Lillebridge is the best part of the Vasquez/Flowers trade...

Lip Man 1
04-29-2011, 11:49 PM
Dub:

In retrospect (although if I recall correctly there were some at the time who were against it) trading Rowand (along with some other moves) appeared to have destroyed the chemistry, mix and ability of this club to play the type of ball Ozze wanted and was very successful at in 2005.

In some ways it was history all over again from the winter of 1960 when Bill Veeck felt that the Sox simply had to have more power to repeat.

The Sox hit plenty of home runs in 2005 but they also were among the league leaders in sacrifice bunts, infield hits, sacrifice flies and stolen bases, a perfect balance. Very unusual and rare.

Nothing, NOTHING against Jim but looking back on it now, you ask if the Sox wouldn't have been better off keeping the hand that won them the title. What we do know is that after that 19 inning game with the Red Sox right before the All Star Break, they simply weren't the same team and haven't been ever since.

Lip

Dub25
04-29-2011, 11:53 PM
Dub:

In retrospect (although if I recall correctly there were some at the time who were against it) trading Rowand (along with some other moves) appeared to have destroyed the chemistry, mix and ability of this club to play the type of ball Ozze wanted and was very successful at in 2005.

In some ways it was history all over again from the winter of 1960 when Bill Veeck felt that the Sox simply had to have more power to repeat.

The Sox hit penty of home runs in 2005 but they also were among the league leaders in sacrifice bunts, infield hits, sacrifice flies and stolen bases, a perfect balance. Very unusual and rare.

Nothing, NOTHING against Jim but looking back on it now, you ask if the Sox wouldn't have been better off keeping the hand that won them the title. What we do know is that after that 19 inning game with the Red Sox right before the All Star Break, they simply weren't the same team and haven't been ever since.

Lip

I would trade Rowand for Thome 100 times out of 100 coming off the 2005 season. It actually worked but the pitching blew 2006 even though they won 90 games. But, after 2009, Jim was not what this team needed and it was time for him to go. I admit, I did blame KW for Kotsay but Oz really did want him. However, KW, wanted Andruw and that didn't help either...

WhiteSox5187
04-30-2011, 01:06 AM
I would trade Rowand for Thome 100 times out of 100 coming off the 2005 season. It actually worked but the pitching blew 2006 even though they won 90 games. But, after 2009, Jim was not what this team needed and it was time for him to go. I admit, I did blame KW for Kotsay but Oz really did want him. However, KW, wanted Andruw and that didn't help either...

Both Kotsay and Andruw contributed, but they should not have been play A for DH. Kotsay is a nice bat coming off the bench and can spell Paulie for a day at first and Jones is a good 4th outfielder, but neither one is a good DH.

Someone pointed this out earlier, while none of the young talent that Kenny has given away has turned out to be very good most of the guys he got in return for that talent haven't been very good either. Kenny is giving away young, cheap guys for older more expensive guys. He keeps making more expensive laterals.

tsoxman
04-30-2011, 08:13 AM
Dub:

In retrospect (although if I recall correctly there were some at the time who were against it) trading Rowand (along with some other moves) appeared to have destroyed the chemistry, mix and ability of this club to play the type of ball Ozze wanted and was very successful at in 2005.

In some ways it was history all over again from the winter of 1960 when Bill Veeck felt that the Sox simply had to have more power to repeat.

The Sox hit plenty of home runs in 2005 but they also were among the league leaders in sacrifice bunts, infield hits, sacrifice flies and stolen bases, a perfect balance. Very unusual and rare.

Nothing, NOTHING against Jim but looking back on it now, you ask if the Sox wouldn't have been better off keeping the hand that won them the title. What we do know is that after that 19 inning game with the Red Sox right before the All Star Break, they simply weren't the same team and haven't been ever since.

Lip
My biggest fear after 2005 was that upper management would fail to see that winning the WC was a complete fluke. Instead of making a bunch of silly trades and acquisitions to attempt to recapture the glory that fell into their lap, my hope was that they would take a more pragmatic and sustainable approach to structuring the organization with an emphasis on player development. Trust me, you will see this happen and soon. The rebuilding mode that many Sox fans eschew will happen anyway. If they would have realized in 2009 that this team was fatally flawed, they could have started the process sooner. But no.

SI1020
04-30-2011, 09:11 AM
My biggest fear after 2005 was that upper management would fail to see that winning the WC was a complete fluke. Instead of making a bunch of silly trades and acquisitions to attempt to recapture the glory that fell into their lap, my hope was that they would take a more pragmatic and sustainable approach to structuring the organization with an emphasis on player development. Trust me, you will see this happen and soon. The rebuilding mode that many Sox fans eschew will happen anyway. If they would have realized in 2009 that this team was fatally flawed, they could have started the process sooner. But no. Great post.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2011, 10:32 AM
TS:

True except as other have pointed out with this organization and their track record for the minor leagues do you honestly think they could make rebuilding work?

That's part of the reason I said the Sox could be in a box with no way out.

There have been studies saying the Sox spend less money than any franchise in baseball on the minor league system. EE when he first took over had a famous press conference where he said the way to win was (paraphrasing) "with free agents and trades..." (Ironically the Sox then became one of the biggest opponents of the free agent system...)

Personally unless this disaster turns around I don't think they are going to have any choice BUT I see them simply treading water for the next few years until new ownership comes in. JR and EE aren't going to be getting into anything that deeply regradless of what approach or tact the franchise wants to take.

Lip

Tragg
04-30-2011, 10:53 AM
Oz is not responsible for Juan's dropped balls or Rios' dropped ball or Beckham's bat disappearing or Dunn's disappearing or Morel's disappearing or... screw it... if you don't get the point by now you never will.
Well, his job is to bring out the best in players. He's not doing it. This team wasn't mentally prepared for the season.

And if we have to break this down in July, do we really want Williams executing the trades of our veterans for young talent?

Can't fire 'em all. So I guess they'll stand pat and see what happens.

hdog1017
04-30-2011, 11:06 AM
I wouldn't be sad if KW and OG were shown the door. Not that I don't respect what they've done for the franchise, but sooner or later, I think this team needs a fresh approach.

captain54
04-30-2011, 02:03 PM
My biggest fear after 2005 was that upper management would fail to see that winning the WC was a complete fluke.


I wouldn't say it was a complete fluke, but most everything completely went their way in 05'.. Keep in mind, if Bartolo Colon pitches in the ALCS and the Sox don't get the benefit the AJ - dropped third strike call, it could have been a completely different situation.

Otherwise I completely agree. The honeymoon ended after the All Star break of 06'. All of a sudden things weren't going their way. Despite all of that, you've gotten believe that the organization was of the belief that everything they would touch would turn to gold because of 05'

You've gotta believe that from the top on down, JR, Ozzie, KW, all are trying to put together a consistent division winner, it just could possibly be they aren't quite as smart as they think they are and just flat out are not capable.

tsoxman
04-30-2011, 03:37 PM
TS:

True except as other have pointed out with this organization and their track record for the minor leagues do you honestly think they could make rebuilding work?

That's part of the reason I said the Sox could be in a box with no way out.

There have been studies saying the Sox spend less money than any franchise in baseball on the minor league system. EE when he first took over had a famous press conference where he said the way to win was (paraphrasing) "with free agents and trades..." (Ironically the Sox then became one of the biggest opponents of the free agent system...)

Personally unless this disaster turns around I don't think they are going to have any choice BUT I see them simply treading water for the next few years until new ownership comes in. JR and EE aren't going to be getting into anything that deeply regradless of what approach or tact the franchise wants to take.

Lip
One of the Sox biggest benefits is that the current cost basis of the present ownership is very low. Reinsdorf and Co. purchased the Sox in 1981 for what, $20 million, and the team is worth over $400 million today. That makes financial moves like the ones for Paulie, Dunn, Peavy and Rios a bit easier to swallow, IMO. The Sox compared to teams that have sold recently (say within the lats 10 years) like the Cubs have very little debt to service, plus they have a fairly good lease deal with ISFA. That said, instead of rolling the dice on peavy and Rios, why could they not have devoted similiar monetary resources to developing a minor league system?

Whoever buys the team from JR and EE will struggle mightily. With an inflated costs basis, there will likely be more debt to finance and the new ownership will have to build a minor league system from scratch. I'm not sure I am looking forward to that day.

Nellie_Fox
04-30-2011, 03:50 PM
Wow. Now our resident Nostradamuses knew immediately after 2005 that going wire-to-wire in first place, and mowing everybody down in the playoffs was a complete fluke. Fatally flawed and all. Rebuild immediately. Actually knew that immediately after the World Series, and would not have complained a bit if the Sox didn't try to go for lit again, but started scrapping the team and rebuilding.

Sure. That's why I saw so many posts to that effect immediately following the World Series.

doublem23
04-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Wow. Now our resident Nostradamuses knew immediately after 2005 that going wire-to-wire in first place, and mowing everybody down in the playoffs was a complete fluke. Fatally flawed and all. Rebuild immediately. Actually knew that immediately after the World Series, and would not have complained a bit if the Sox didn't try to go for lit again, but started scrapping the team and rebuilding.

Sure. That's why I saw so many posts to that effect immediately following the World Series.

This thread has taken a turn for the absolute ridiculous.

Everyone's a genius when you're making moves with 6 years of hindsight.

Brian26
04-30-2011, 07:42 PM
My biggest fear after 2005 was that upper management would fail to see that winning the WC was a complete fluke.

That's just a silly comment.

I'd tend to agree with you if the Sox had been bums for several years leading up to 2005. On the contrary, if you look at the Sox teams starting with the 2nd half of the '99 season, there was a steady, gradual build towards the '05 Championship. Several of the main pieces of the '05 team were put in place as early as 2000. The Sox were a starting pitcher away from going to the playoff in 2003. The 2004 team was in first place in late July until Frank and Mags went down. 2005 was a nice surprise because Kenny was able to parlay Mags and Carlos Lee into several more valuable parts, but there was absolutely no reason to begin rebuilding after the season.

Brian26
04-30-2011, 07:47 PM
Nothing, NOTHING against Jim but looking back on it now, you ask if the Sox wouldn't have been better off keeping the hand that won them the title. What we do know is that after that 19 inning game with the Red Sox right before the All Star Break, they simply weren't the same team and haven't been ever since.

Lip

Even if the Sox kept Rowand (and assuming he had a similar year to his '06 w/ the Phillies), and even if they had the foresight to keep Big Frank (assuming he had a similar year to his '06 w/ the A's), the Sox still would have fell short because of the breakdown w/ Politte and Cotts, non-performance of MacDougal and Riske, and the dead-arms of Buehrle and Contreras near the end.

SI1020
04-30-2011, 08:01 PM
KW did a fine job in the off season after 04 with a much more limited budget than he's had the last few years. He got Podsednik and Vizcaino in a trade, and signed free agents Dye, Iguchi, Pierzynski, and Hermanson. None of them were looked upon as sure things and all had something to prove. It worked like magic and we had a year none of us will ever forget. KW had the right game plan and luck was on his side. Perhaps complete fluke is not the proper wording, but when you've gone 88 years without a championship I can understand someone calling it just that. Since then our GM has gone back to his original modus operandi, high risk swing for the fence kind of deals that often don't work out. In the meantime an already weak farm system has apparently bottomed out. Our better prospects seem to struggle and fail. Now we are arriving at an unhappy destination and some of us wonder if there is a plan to right the ship other than a catchy slogan. It may be presumptous for me to think that's how some of us see things more or less, and I fail to see why that should be an object of internet scorn. I like to read what people have to say, even if they're not on the level of Tolstoy or Shakespeare, and even if they often roll their little cyber eyes at me.

tsoxman
04-30-2011, 09:05 PM
That's just a silly comment.


....The Sox were a starting pitcher away from going to the playoff in 2003... .
Gee Wiz, Brian why was that the case? Because Kenny traded two viable fifth starter candidtates to the Pirates for Todd Ritchie. Enough said.

captain54
04-30-2011, 09:13 PM
Wow. Now our resident Nostradamuses knew immediately after 2005 that going wire-to-wire in first place, and mowing everybody down in the playoffs was a complete fluke. Fatally flawed and all. Rebuild immediately. Actually knew that immediately after the World Series, and would not have complained a bit if the Sox didn't try to go for lit again, but started scrapping the team and rebuilding.

Sure. That's why I saw so many posts to that effect immediately following the World Series.

Were you watching the games in 05'? The Sox took advantage by beating up on a very weak Central, and a beat up Cleveland team early in the season, and were able to jump out to a 15 game lead, which they needed, because once Cleveland got healthy the Sox came close to a historic collapse. Couple that with about 8 guys having career years simultaneously and I would pretty much say that's walking around with a horseshoe up your arse.

Brian26
04-30-2011, 09:42 PM
Were you watching the games in 05'? The Sox took advantage by beating up on a very weak Central, and a beat up Cleveland team early in the season, and were able to jump out to a 15 game lead, which they needed, because once Cleveland got healthy the Sox came close to a historic collapse. Couple that with about 8 guys having career years simultaneously and I would pretty much say that's walking around with a horseshoe up your arse.

Name the eight guys who had career years so I can show you how you're incorrect.

Also, the "horseshoe" comment is ridiculous. The team lead wire-to-wire with 99 wins and won 16 of their last 17 games, steamrolling to a World Series sweep. They dominated all year and were the best team in baseball, the greatest Sox team of our lifetimes. People want to downplay that by calling it lucky? :rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
04-30-2011, 09:58 PM
Name the eight guys who had career years so I can show you how you're incorrect.

Also, the "horseshoe" comment is ridiculous. The team lead wire-to-wire with 99 wins and won 16 of their last 17 games, steamrolling to a World Series sweep. They dominated all year and were the best team in baseball, the greatest Sox team of our lifetimes. People want to downplay that by calling it lucky? :rolleyes:

I don't think it was luck. That team played exceptionally well; they were greater than the sum of their parts.

Still, several key contributors DID have career years. Politte, Cotts and Hermanson all had career years. Iguchi had his best OPS season of his short MLB career. Buehrle had his best ERA and W-L percentage. Jon Garland had his second best ERA, best ERA+ and most innings pitched.

captain54
04-30-2011, 10:10 PM
Name the eight guys who had career years so I can show you how you're incorrect.

Also, the "horseshoe" comment is ridiculous. The team lead wire-to-wire with 99 wins and won 16 of their last 17 games, steamrolling to a World Series sweep. They dominated all year and were the best team in baseball, the greatest Sox team of our lifetimes. People want to downplay that by calling it lucky? :rolleyes:

Pretty much every starting pitcher had a career year. Add two relievers, Cotts and Politte, heck you could add Jenks to that too. There's seven.
Take your pick of the rest of the roster for the eighth. there's 5 or 6 choices.

Everything fell into place for the Sox in 05 and if you can't admit that then its no sense discussing it even further. We agree to disagree. The real issue here is whether the Sox GM/Field Manager were largely responsible for the engineering of that banner year, because if they were, why couldn't have sprinkled their baseball genius magic fairy dust on 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and now 11?

If your read between the lines of every Kenny Williams/Ozzie press conference, you'll see that failure of the Sox is the fault of the players not playing up to their potential. Which means that the GM/Field manager are taking no accountability for the failure. Thusly, KW/Ozzie can take no accountability for the success of 05. Can't have it both ways.

TDog
04-30-2011, 10:26 PM
Were you watching the games in 05'? The Sox took advantage by beating up on a very weak Central, and a beat up Cleveland team early in the season, and were able to jump out to a 15 game lead, which they needed, because once Cleveland got healthy the Sox came close to a historic collapse. Couple that with about 8 guys having career years simultaneously and I would pretty much say that's walking around with a horseshoe up your arse.

You can continue to denigrate the achievements of 2005, but the season wasn't any more a fluke than the season of any other team that has won the World Series this century. The Sox had the best record in the American League. It might have felt like a collapse because the Indians won 17 of 19 at one point in September, but the White Sox won 18 of 30 regular season games after the end of August. A collapse is going 9-18 from the end of August while you are overtaken by a team going 24-8 to run away with the division you were running away with (see the 1969 Cubs and Mets). While the Indians were going 17-2, one of their losses was to the White Sox.

The 2005 season meant something. It wasn't the equivalent of an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters coming up with Hamlet. The 2005 season were the best team in baseball in 2005, and they were tested by a team that had one of the best September runs in baseball (especially when you consider those Indians post-August numbers include the team losing six of their last seven). And the White Sox never got healthy, losing Frank Thomas for the season after he came back apparently healthy, and they lost their closer. The 2005 White Sox were a damn good team.

You can complain that the players aren't performing for the White Sox this season, that the coaches should be unemployed and that the general manager built a bad baseball team. I don't agree with all of that. Three players that have been key to the White Sox having one of the worst records in baseball in April are Dunn, Rios and Thornton. (You might be able to throw in Pierre and Beckham, but they haven't contributed as severely to the record. Early whipping boys like Teahen and Lillibridge have actually helped more than they have hurt.) I don't know of many fans that thought any of Rios, Dunn and Thornton would be a problem. I don't know of any who believed all three would have awful Aprils. I don't know of anyone who came up with a dramatically different suggestion for what the White Sox needed to do this season that left out Rios, Dunn and Thornton.

And it is certainly ridiculous to label a great White Sox team a fluke because you want to believe the people who were in charge of it are now to blame for so much losing.

Brian26
04-30-2011, 10:51 PM
Pretty much every starting pitcher had a career year. Add two relievers, Cotts and Politte, heck you could add Jenks to that too. There's seven.
Take your pick of the rest of the roster for the eighth. there's 5 or 6 choices.

If you check the stats, Buehrle's career year was really 2001 (factoring in WHIP and the fact he gave up almost 60 less hits).

Freddy Garcia's career year was 2001.

Jenks only pitched for six weeks in 2005, c'mon.

El Duque, no. Conteras, maybe, but you're comparing half of the 2005 season vs. half of the 2006 season.

I'll give you Garland, Politte and Cotts. I'll even give you Hermanson even though he had some success as a starter earlier in his career. The save total on its own was impressive based on that not being his assumed role to start the season.

I don't think any of the offensive guys had career years. Crede, Dye and Iguchi had better 2006 seasons. Pods was better in 2003. Rowand had an outstanding '04 and '06 season. Konerko had better numbers in '04. AJ's had a couple of better seasons since '05 too (2006 and 2009).

captain54
04-30-2011, 11:40 PM
Three players that have been key to the White Sox having one of the worst records in baseball in April are Dunn, Rios and Thornton.

Bad defense, bad bullpen, bad offense.. Those are the keys...

I will continue to re-iterate my argument that all of these things going bad simultaneously on a baseball club that has a $120 million dollar payroll
means that there's plenty of blame to go around beside Dunn, Rios, and Thornton.

TDog
04-30-2011, 11:49 PM
Bad defense, bad bullpen, bad offense.. Those are the keys...

I will continue to re-iterate my argument that all of these things going bad simultaneously on a baseball club that has a $120 million dollar payroll
means that there's plenty of blame to go around beside Dunn, Rios, and Thornton.

If those three players have the Aprils that most fans expected, and fans would say with good reason, the White Sox would have a winning record.

Were you ranting about bad defense, bad bullpen and bad offense before the season started?

Tragg
05-01-2011, 12:11 AM
If those three players have the Aprils that most fans expected, and fans would say with good reason, the White Sox would have a winning record.


That's too easy. When you spend the money the Sox did, you should be able to withstand slumps from 3 players and not play 8 games below .500 in the first 28 games.
This team has blown games mentally all season long....including tonight as a PB opened the gates.

TDog
05-01-2011, 01:02 AM
That's too easy. When you spend the money the Sox did, you should be able to withstand slumps from 3 players and not play 8 games below .500 in the first 28 games.
This team has blown games mentally all season long....including tonight as a PB opened the gates.

You're right. A team should be able to withstand slumps from key players. But what I wrote is true as well. The Orioles likely would have scored off Thonton tonight without the passed ball. It's unlikely he would have held the game at 2-1. The White Sox had loaded the bases with none out bringing up Dunn and Rios. The Sox should have had more than one run. Thornton has four blown saves, although I believe the Sox won one of those games. I can only think of one close game that Dunn has helped the White Sox win.

But you are right. Still, the bigger point about people complaining about the incompetence of the front office is that people weren't complaining preseason about the problems that everyone seems to believe now are so obvious. Where were people complaining about signing Dunn instead of, say, Werth, who is a pretty good defensive rightfielder? Where were people complaining about the Thornton extension? People still complain about the Teahen extension, but Teahen has played better this season than Dunn.

Sox fans were excited going into the season, for the most part. If you go back and read the preseason posts, no one lamented that this April there would be an offensive black hole at DH or even at second base. Or that not enough fly balls hit to left field wouldn't be dropped. It's easy to expound on what is wrong with a team after you have seen them play. But it's a little unfair to Kenny Williams.

captain54
05-01-2011, 01:18 AM
But it's a little unfair to Kenny Williams.

It's easy for you to sit back and feel sorry for Kenny Williams, but if a) you were the owner of a big market team, and it was your good money that was spent the last 5 yrs with only one playoff appearance to show for..and b) this year, you hand your GM $120 million and you have a 10-18 start to the season, 9 games behind a team with a fraction of your payroll, , and a record number of club loses for April .... would you be as forgiving?

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2011, 01:25 AM
You're right. A team should be able to withstand slumps from key players. But what I wrote is true as well. The Orioles likely would have scored off Thonton tonight without the passed ball. It's unlikely he would have held the game at 2-1. The White Sox had loaded the bases with none out bringing up Dunn and Rios. The Sox should have had more than one run. Thornton has four blown saves, although I believe the Sox won one of those games. I can only think of one close game that Dunn has helped the White Sox win.

But you are right. Still, the bigger point about people complaining about the incompetence of the front office is that people weren't complaining preseason about the problems that everyone seems to believe now are so obvious. Where were people complaining about signing Dunn instead of, say, Werth, who is a pretty good defensive rightfielder? Where were people complaining about the Thornton extension? People still complain about the Teahen extension, but Teahen has played better this season than Dunn.

Sox fans were excited going into the season, for the most part. If you go back and read the preseason posts, no one lamented that this April there would be an offensive black hole at DH or even at second base. Or that not enough fly balls hit to left field wouldn't be dropped. It's easy to expound on what is wrong with a team after you have seen them play. But it's a little unfair to Kenny Williams.

I seem to recall a few people worrying about the bullpen at the beginning of the year (I was one) and how we didn't have a closer. Most of these fears were dismissed with "every year the bullpen is a crap shoot." The lack of hitting was and is a surprise. But I think this team will hit...eventually. The bullpen is a much bigger concern.

asindc
05-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Pretty much every starting pitcher had a career year. Add two relievers, Cotts and Politte, heck you could add Jenks to that too. There's seven.
Take your pick of the rest of the roster for the eighth. there's 5 or 6 choices.

Everything fell into place for the Sox in 05 and if you can't admit that then its no sense discussing it even further. We agree to disagree. The real issue here is whether the Sox GM/Field Manager were largely responsible for the engineering of that banner year, because if they were, why couldn't have sprinkled their baseball genius magic fairy dust on 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and now 11?

If your read between the lines of every Kenny Williams/Ozzie press conference, you'll see that failure of the Sox is the fault of the players not playing up to their potential. Which means that the GM/Field manager are taking no accountability for the failure. Thusly, KW/Ozzie can take no accountability for the success of 05. Can't have it both ways.

I want names as well. "Pretty much everybody" is not a response to Nellie's request for actual names.

asindc
05-02-2011, 02:01 PM
It's easy for you to sit back and feel sorry for Kenny Williams, but if a) you were the owner of a big market team, and it was your good money that was spent the last 5 yrs with only one playoff appearance to show for..and b) this year, you hand your GM $120 million and you have a 10-18 start to the season, 9 games behind a team with a fraction of your payroll, , and a record number of club loses for April .... would you be as forgiving?

I'll ask my Tiger fans buddies (make no mistake, the Tiger market [the entire state of Michigan plus the Toledo area] is larger than the Sox market), since they have had a larger payroll for most years in the past five years.

TDog
05-02-2011, 03:07 PM
It's easy for you to sit back and feel sorry for Kenny Williams, but if a) you were the owner of a big market team, and it was your good money that was spent the last 5 yrs with only one playoff appearance to show for..and b) this year, you hand your GM $120 million and you have a 10-18 start to the season, 9 games behind a team with a fraction of your payroll, , and a record number of club loses for April .... would you be as forgiving?

How would you have spent the money differently to come up with a winner?

I expressed some ways in which I would have spent the money differently before the season started. And they didn't include Adam Dunn.

If you're an owner, you have to be forgiving (unless you're a lunatic owner). Show me where people were saying in March that Kenny Williams was doing things wrong in the way he divided up the payroll. There is Teahen, who has been a more effective DH than Dunn but continues to upset people.

Show me any baseball analyst who predicted in March the Sox and Twins would be where they are for the reasons they are. Show me any potential GM who would have done things substantially differently given the same situation.

I would have built a team with a strong defensive right fielder, moving Quentin to left, for starters. I could tell you what I would have done for the same amount of money or less, but fans wouldn't like it, and even if I had the opportunity, I wouldn't last any longer in the GM job than Ken Harrelson did.

Being an owner of a big-market team, and watching the Yankees spend twice as much as anyone else year after year without getting to the World Series year after year, I would know there are no guarantees. I would know that this isn't a video game.

I don't agree with Kenny Williams, and some people believe I'm a lunatic. But if I were the owner, I wouldn't be lunatic enough to fire him.

Tragg
05-02-2011, 04:33 PM
How would you have spent the money differently to come up with a winner?

I wouldn't have traded for an expensive mediocrity like Teahan or the counterfeit like Jackson. Peavy, on the DL when acquired is questionable.

asindc
05-02-2011, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't have traded for an expensive mediocrity like Teahan or the counterfeit like Jackson. Peavy, on the DL when acquired is questionable.

How about signing a FA OF who is just coming off an unproven knee surgery and refused to allow his former team to review the surgery records? By the way, your response says what you would not do, not what you would do.

Tragg
05-02-2011, 07:26 PM
How about signing a FA OF who is just coming off an unproven knee surgery and refused to allow his former team to review the surgery records? By the way, your response says what you would not do, not what you would do.
It's hard to say...negotiate different trades? Stick with young players? I don't really know what was available. I do know that his trades of the last few years for the most part have been absolutely miserable.
Who are you talking about above? Detroit and Maggs??

asindc
05-02-2011, 09:06 PM
It's hard to say...negotiate different trades? Stick with young players? I don't really know what was available. I do know that his trades of the last few years for the most part have been absolutely miserable.
Who are you talking about above? Detroit and Maggs??

Yes, Maggs.