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View Full Version : Ozzie Guillen and the Hot Seat: Where do you stand?


Viva Medias B's
04-20-2011, 11:14 PM
Which statement best describes your position on whether or not Ozzie Guillen should be on the hot seat? Granted, it may be too early to have a discussion like this. However, given how things have been going, it is an issue that will not go away as long as we keep losing.

Nelfox02
04-20-2011, 11:16 PM
should he be on the hot seat? absolutely. Is he on the hot seat? not at all

he is not going anywhere this year. And I would argue that unless this team is EPIC bad (60 win territory) he will be there on opening day 2012 too. And I dont see this team winning less than 80 games, so be ready for a lot more Ozzie.

unless he does us all a favor and quits....

mzh
04-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Honestly, I don't think this team is bad. Everyone has their funks. The 2005 team lost 7 in a row at one point too. Just like most every player who starts the year hot comes back down to earth (see: Carlos Silva), obviously this might not at all be an indication of how to the rest of the way turns out. This stretch only shows more because it's the first 3 weeks of the season and only 18 games have been played.

Ozzie simply can't be blamed for everything. Personally, I disagree with an aspect or two of the lineup (I don't think Beckham should be hitting second), but when they score 2 runs in 27 innings, Connie Mack would be lucky to win a game. Patience. Things balance themselves out over 162 games.

EDIT: Personally, I think some here just have a vendetta against Ozzie. If you look for reasons to fire him, they will be there, regardless of the situation. I just try to look at it objectively.

SOXYoose
04-21-2011, 12:33 AM
ditto to mzh. Some ppl who talk about Ozzie as a whole say "we've only been to the playoffs twice under him." Well we won a championship in one of those, and that counts for something. We have a good team, we're slumping, you may be able to call him on the bunts, but that's a hindsight call.

mcsoxfan
04-21-2011, 12:38 AM
Honestly, I don't think this team is bad. Everyone has their funks. The 2005 team lost 7 in a row at one point too. Just like most every player who starts the year hot comes back down to earth (see: Carlos Silva), obviously this might not at all be an indication of how to the rest of the way turns out. This stretch only shows more because it's the first 3 weeks of the season and only 18 games have been played.

Ozzie simply can't be blamed for everything. Personally, I disagree with an aspect or two of the lineup (I don't think Beckham should be hitting second), but when they score 2 runs in 27 innings, Connie Mack would be lucky to win a game. Patience. Things balance themselves out over 162 games.

EDIT: Personally, I think some here just have a vendetta against Ozzie. If you look for reasons to fire him, they will be there, regardless of the situation. I just try to look at it objectively.

The best managing Guillen did was stay out of the pitchers way in the 2005 World Series. Unfortunately for the last 6 years, he insists on his imprint on every game. He wants to manage a NL team, let him go manage one. Guillen played out in this town a long time ago. I was hoping he would leave after Series. Reinsdorf forced this man on Kenny who wanted Cito Gaston. But Reinsdorf didn't want to pay him.

Boondock Saint
04-21-2011, 12:40 AM
He is managing this team into a hole.

Noneck
04-21-2011, 12:42 AM
I dont know who would make this a better club, how many games Ozwaldo is winning or losing for this team or how many games a great, good, ok or bad manager wins for a club. What I do know if you want a family friendly team and go out of your way to sign choirboys, keeping a guy like Ozzie makes no sense.

mcsoxfan
04-21-2011, 12:48 AM
ditto to mzh. Some ppl who talk about Ozzie as a whole say "we've only been to the playoffs twice under him." Well we won a championship in one of those, and that counts for something. We have a good team, we're slumping, you may be able to call him on the bunts, but that's a hindsight call.

We almost didn't make the playoffs in 2005 because of some atrocious managing by Guillen during September of that year. But if you're satisfied at being exceptional once a century then Reinsdorf, Williams and Guillen are your men. And this just in....you've already had your day in the sun.

soxnut1018
04-21-2011, 12:53 AM
I refuse to take this poll seriously until a churros option is added.

doublem23
04-21-2011, 12:54 AM
It's possible that this team is just bad.

Frankfan4life
04-21-2011, 01:01 AM
I like Ozzie but I don't like his management style. He's predictable and doesn't seem to have the team focused on a game plan. I think new leadership might turn the team around. However, it's early and I'm willing to give it some more time.

JB98
04-21-2011, 01:01 AM
If they were to fire him, they'd just make Cora the interim manager. That would help!

pudge
04-21-2011, 01:07 AM
Managers don't win games, but they sure can lose them. Ozzie loses games with his sacrifice bunts and sometimes with his management of the staff. I said it last year and I am sticking by it, it's time. I hardly watched much White Sox baseball last season, and it's already happening this season. With a payroll this big, I can't believe this franchise is losing my interest.

SOXYoose
04-21-2011, 01:20 AM
Blame him for September 05 and you deny him the credit for decisions before and after? That's the same kind of criticism I was talking about. It's fitting the facts to your argument rather than vice-versa, which makes me think it's a vendetta thing as MZH said. If we are going to talk big picture then we can't not talk about 2005 as support for Ozzie getting more slack. If we keep it about right now, then it's a 7 game losing streak, and a losing season or fireable manager that does not make IMHO.



We almost didn't make the playoffs in 2005 because of some atrocious managing by Guillen during September of that year. But if you're satisfied at being exceptional once a century then Reinsdorf, Williams and Guillen are your men. And this just in....you've already had your day in the sun.

bnlfanmatt
04-21-2011, 01:20 AM
It's a 7 game skid. It impacts our record heavily because it's early. Because of the small amount of games played, we went from a .636 team to a .389 team. If we were 60 games in, it would've brought us from being the .636 team to a .567 team, not as drastically as bad. That's why I say wait until Memorial Day.

mzh
04-21-2011, 01:46 AM
The best managing Guillen did was stay out of the pitchers way in the 2005 World Series. Unfortunately for the last 6 years, he insists on his imprint on every game. He wants to manage a NL team, let him go manage one. Guillen played out in this town a long time ago. I was hoping he would leave after Series. Reinsdorf forced this man on Kenny who wanted Cito Gaston. But Reinsdorf didn't want to pay him.
:rolleyes: I wasn't aware that you kept in touch with Kenny during the 03-04 offseason.

While we're on the topic of the 2005 postseason, let's not forget about the time when Ozzie stupidly pulled Marte in the LDS instead of leaving him alone and letting him clean his own mess up.

It's ****ing 3 weeks into the season. Do we want to sound like spoiled Yankees fans, who want to fire Joe Girardi every ****ing April because they don't start the year 20-0 like they're supposed to? Look at Boston, you don't see people calling for Francona's head because he left Dice-K out to dry in the midst of a losing streak. I'm gonna get crucified for that analogy, but you'd think ESPECIALLY after what happened last year, with a less talented team, it's clear that over 162 games sometimes you just got to wait it out.

Boondock Saint
04-21-2011, 02:07 AM
:rolleyes: I wasn't aware that you kept in touch with Kenny during the 03-04 offseason.

While we're on the topic of the 2005 postseason, let's not forget about the time when Ozzie stupidly pulled Marte in the LDS instead of leaving him alone and letting him clean his own mess up.

It's ****ing 3 weeks into the season. Do we want to sound like spoiled Yankees fans, who want to fire Joe Girardi every ****ing April because they don't start the year 20-0 like they're supposed to? Look at Boston, you don't see people calling for Francona's head because he left Dice-K out to dry in the midst of a losing streak. I'm gonna get crucified for that analogy, but you'd think ESPECIALLY after what happened last year, with a less talented team, it's clear that over 162 games sometimes you just got to wait it out.


It's three weeks into the season, and we're already seeing some of the same **** that pissed us off in 2010, 2009, 2008, etc...Ozzie is doing the same damn thing he always does. What makes you think that the result is going to be different this time around?

Falstaff
04-21-2011, 02:37 AM
I sure hope Jerry and Kenny have their rolodex out, have compiled a
short list of available potential upgrades for the field manager position.
I for one have seen too much sloppy baseball bad attitude corpseball extending over several seasons; losing patience. What, does he expect that
the key to turning it around is have huge hole to climb up? What about Frank Thomas for manager?

kufram
04-21-2011, 05:46 AM
This always seems a polarized issue to me, but so far there are some sensible responses on both sides. We'll see if that lasts. I like Ozzie and I don't think he is a good game manager. I can do both. It won't break my heart if he is gone but I still would like to see a realistic shortlist of replacements from someone who feels so strongly anti-Ozzie that it leads to vitriol on this board. To fire Ozzie does NOT solve the problem. Let's hear a solution please.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2011, 06:50 AM
I think we all agree that year after year with the talent we have that this team under-performs. Whats the reason? How many games has Ozzies great management won for the Sox, I will give him an A for 2005. In the first half of 2006 we just beat teams by smashing the hell out of the ball. Since then I give OG a D+ or C-. You can't fire 25 players, I wanted him out of here last year. JR and KW, its time to make the move and send Ozzie packing.

Thome25
04-21-2011, 07:25 AM
I have been a diehard Ozzie supporter but, I think his act, his managing style, and his philosophies have become old, stale, and worn out.

It's time for someone who's going to inject some life into this team.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-21-2011, 07:34 AM
I have been a diehard Ozzie supporter but, I think his act, his managing style, and his philosophies have become old, stale, and worn out.

It's time for someone who's going to inject some life into this team.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e40/brado1987/Jose_Canseco_XM.jpg

"Oh boy! Where do I sign up?"

veeter
04-21-2011, 08:18 AM
Personally I thought they should have launched him when he couldn't control his one kid on twitter and then ripped the organization for not drafting his other kid higher. The Sox organization has been pretty embarrassing for a few years now and Ozzie's been the head clown.

Nelfox02
04-21-2011, 08:26 AM
Personally I thought they should have launched him when he couldn't control his one kid on twitter and then ripped the organization for not drafting his other kid higher. The Sox organization has been pretty embarrassing for a few years now and Ozzie's been the head clown.



exactly......but instead we exercise his option before a single game is played in 2011.

doublem23
04-21-2011, 09:12 AM
exactly......but instead we exercise his option before a single game is played in 2011.

Oh, that's not that big of a deal, that means if we fire him we're on the hook for one extra year, hardly anything compared to cost of this entire roster. It's worth it not having to listen to lazy journalists and meathead fans talk about Ozzie's contract expiring at the end of the season every other day. Not to mention, I can only imagine what Ozzie'd be like if he actually saw himself painted into a corner.

g0g0
04-21-2011, 09:18 AM
Give him another month and then start seriously talking about it. It's WAY too early to be bringing out the noose.

asindc
04-21-2011, 09:46 AM
This always seems a polarized issue to me, but so far there are some sensible responses on both sides. We'll see if that lasts. I like Ozzie and I don't think he is a good game manager. I can do both. It won't break my heart if he is gone but I still would like to see a realistic shortlist of replacements from someone who feels so strongly anti-Ozzie that it leads to vitriol on this board. To fire Ozzie does NOT solve the problem. Let's hear a solution please.

I find it interesting that this request is never responded to by those who are calling for Ozzie's firing. For the record, I don't think now is the time to make such a move, but unlike years past, I won't object if it happens.

A. Cavatica
04-21-2011, 09:52 AM
"Too early"? They had an easy opportunity to can him last off-season; they didn't.

They've had multiple opportunities to get rid of him since the end of 2006, when his managing was a major factor in them missing the playoffs.

They didn't.

Whenever it happens, his firing will come several years too late, after a long string of ruined seasons and countless wasted dollars.

SI1020
04-21-2011, 10:01 AM
I find it interesting that this request is never responded to by those who are calling for Ozzie's firing. For the record, I don't think now is the time to make such a move, but unlike years past, I won't object if it happens. As far as solutions go, this would be a pretty good start. In addition to a new manager.



That said, here is my message: JR, please tell your fellow shareholders (you know, the ones only in it for the money who rarely attend any games) that their investments will become much more valuable when the team sustains excellence over several years (i.e., see Philadelphia Phillies), so spending more money to enhance team operations (roster, minor league system, scouting, etc.) can be a great way to get a better return on investment. In other words, winnning cures all.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 10:05 AM
I can't believe that I just read someone openly blaming Ozzie for the "Great September Skid of '05"

Just wow.

It's clear that there is just a faction of this base that wants Ozzie gone.

Hendu
04-21-2011, 10:13 AM
If they were to fire him, they'd just make Cora the interim manager. That would help!

Exactly. Who is out there that can step in and magically turn this team around? I went with 'wait until Memorial Day' because if the Sox are still under-achieving by that point, it's time to seriously start discussing the hot seat for Ozzie (and KW shouldn't get a free pass).

Now let's hope things gets turned around so we can forget all about hot seats.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-21-2011, 10:23 AM
"Too early"? They had an easy opportunity to can him last off-season; they didn't.

They've had multiple opportunities to get rid of him since the end of 2006, when his managing was a major factor in them missing the playoffs.

They didn't.

Whenever it happens, his firing will come several years too late, after a long string of ruined seasons and countless wasted dollars.

This echoes my sentiment. In 2005 he was the recipient of a historic run of post-season pitching. Since then, he has been exposed as a lousy manager and a classless egotistical ******* that is a general embarrassment to the organization and its fans. Rather than capitalize on the good will and opportunity that 2005 presented, the organization chose to show this clown blind devotion and as a result has regressed to its perennial also ran wanna be status. It's high time to shake things up and at the very least try and light a fire under this listless group. Otherwise by the time the team "heats up with weather", very few will be left that actually give a ****.

Tragg
04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
If they were to fire him, they'd just make Cora the interim manager. That would help!

That's true- but it actually might help. A lot of people think highly of Cora (I confess that I've always thought of him as Ozzie's chief yes-man). He's certainly not as obnoxious as Guillen.
It probably won't make any difference either way.
If this season ends in failure, they'll likely go younger and they'll have to bring in new manager if that happens.

Chicken Dinner
04-21-2011, 10:33 AM
Someone needs to tell Ozzie that spring training ends in March. :o:

Jerko
04-21-2011, 10:34 AM
This echoes my sentiment. In 2005 he was the recipient of a historic run of post-season pitching. Since then, he has been exposed as a lousy manager and a classless egotistical ******* that is a general embarrassment to the organization and its fans. Rather than capitalize on the good will and opportunity that 2005 presented, the organization chose to show this clown blind devotion and as a result has regressed to its perennial also ran wanna be status. It's high time to shake things up and at the very least try and light a fire under this listless group. Otherwise by the time the team "heats up with weather", very few will be left that actually give a ****.


That's what I'm worried about. If that place is empty by the time calendar summer rolls around, will Sox brass carry out their "threat" to rebuild? I really don't want to be the Pirates for 4-5 years.

tstrike2000
04-21-2011, 10:38 AM
That's true- but it actually might help. A lot of people think highly of Cora (I confess that I've always thought of him as Ozzie's chief yes-man). He's certainly not as obnoxious as Guillen.
It probably won't make any difference either way.
If this season ends in failure, they'll likely go younger and they'll have to bring in new manager if that happens.

I don't think people know much about Cora, so who knows what kind of job he would do. Plus, he has no managerial experience. And in my own personal opinion, I don't like when teams hire former players of that team to be coaches ie. Guillen, Walker, Cora, and Baines unless they truly are really good coaches and can really lead a team. However, I haven't seen too many examples of it.

doublem23
04-21-2011, 10:42 AM
It's clear that there is just a faction of this base that wants Ozzie gone.

Well, it's not like we've been very good for going on 6 years now.

Red Barchetta
04-21-2011, 10:49 AM
I think the issue is the combination of a loud-mouth, attention-seeking manager and a team full of "quiet leaders". Perhaps the other way around is a better winning formula.

I don't particularly blame Ozzie, however if this trend continues where the SOX continue to come in second place, they need to make a wholesale change, including hitting coach, bench coach, etc. I know many think Coop is untouchable, however if a new manager is brought in, he should have the opportunity to build his staff.

JR has proven to be loyal almost to a fault. He honors all his contracts (good or bad) and I don't see Ozzie leaving until after his contract expires. Now perhaps if they have a horrible 2011 season, he may take the rumored Marlins job if they are willing to buy out the contract and the SOX are willing to release him.

The SOX did the honorable thing by exercising the extension, now Ozzie needs to prove he's as good as he claims he is.

I will always respect Ozzie for his years playing for the SOX and the 2005 WS Chamionship, however all things run in cycles and his cycle may be coming to an end...

PaleHoser
04-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Ozzie wouldn't be on my hot seat, he'd be in my ejection seat. And without the six week hot streak last season, he'd have been gone after last season.

Cito Gaston is my man, and now.

Proven winner (two World Series rings).
Managed Toronto to 85 wins in AL East last season, after they traded the best pitcher in baseball for no immediate help.
Former hitting coach.
Professional.
Not a shameless self-promoter.
I don't think the answer is to promote someone from within. If this was a younger club with a core of homegrown talent, bringing someone in with history might help them. But it's a veteran club, and I think a proven leader from outside the organization is the best choice.

I also don't think it's too soon. Someone from outside the organization is going to need time to evaluate what they have and make some changes. It would be spring training all over again, but that six weeks would put us at the beginning of June and in position to make a run.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 10:52 AM
Well, it's not like we've been very good for going on 6 years now.

While what you type holds truth, it's not completely factual. As well, it is not all of Ozzie's fault.

It's too early for firings, but my OG loyalty is thinning. It's my thought that if OG goes, so should KW. I would start all over with Hahn running things.


Here's something else to pay attention to - Look at PK last year and this year. Not just stats, but mannerisms, habitual motions etc. He's got nothing to earn this year vs. last year. Rings similar to the last extension year JR gave him.

So, while I don't think this is all OGs fault, I do see a lot of similarities from year to year since '06.

Are also taking for granted that the past 7 years or so have been the most productive during my life time as a Sox fan?

Honest question there...

sox1970
04-21-2011, 10:58 AM
I'd give the team until June 1 to get to .500. They have 40 games until then--27 road/13 home. If they play a solid 22-18, they're right back where they need to be...29-29.

But if they're 22-36, something has got to give.

jdm2662
04-21-2011, 11:05 AM
First off, let me start out by saying I agree with the people who are trashing those who are nic-picking stats just to make themselves look good. You can't have it both ways. You cannot take away someone's accomplishments, no matter what you say or how much you dislike the person. People complaining about Sept. 2005? Give me a break. The Indians went on a 33-11 run. The Sox went 17-12 in 2005, including sweeping the annoited World Series champions with their B team. Sucks, I know. Some of the bias arguments are way over the top, and quite honostly, they are not very fair.

That said, Ozzie's overall performance has been pretty good for the most part. I think he is a decent to good manager, but not great. Very few are great. However, he's not exactly having a good season so far. Also, no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, can defend him as a human being. He is a despicable human being, and his family is an embarssment to the franchise. The drama he causes is simply over the top, and I said way back in 2006 it will get old quick if the team starts to lose. He should've been fired last year, but the team got over to their poor start to have a decent season. However, if the team bows down to the Twins again and plays poorly over all the in division, I can't see how anyone can actually want Ozzie to return. I was all for firing him after last season, but I wasn't upset when they kept them. I would like to think people are over the "fire" and "passion" arugements, but I expect nothing less in Chicago.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 11:15 AM
a despicable human being?

Why even follow the team if the organization employs "a despicable human being" to lead the team

SI1020
04-21-2011, 11:27 AM
a despicable human being?

Why even follow the team if the organization employs "a despicable human being" to lead the team Because old loyalties die hard.

24thStFan
04-21-2011, 11:31 AM
When Ozzie first became manager, I was happy the Sox chose someone who had a history within the organization. I thought that Ozzie would bring some new fans into the ballpark by reaching out to the large Latino community in Chicago.

At first, I found Ozzieís personality was entertaining. It was refreshing to hear a manger speak his mind. Now Iíve gotten a little tired of Ozzieís persona, and I think if he goes off again this year, he may be fired. Heís become kind of a stereotype (and not in a good way).

As far as the current performance of the team, I donít blame Ozzie. Heís not out there getting picked off, striking out with RISP, and making errors. I agree with those here who say this team lacks players who hold each other accountable. Thereís no one on the team who gives a damn. AJ used to get the guys fired up. Stop tipping your cap to the other team and get in somebodyís face.

jdm2662
04-21-2011, 11:32 AM
a despicable human being?

Why even follow the team if the organization employs "a despicable human being" to lead the team

Because, I can put aside the fact someone is a complete ******* if he does his job. I go to work to work and expect my co-workers to do the same. I'm not there to make friends. I do work with some cool people, but in the 4.5 years I've been there, I have not done a single thing with any of them socially. I can put aside the fact to acknowledge Ozzie's overall performance as a White Sox manager has been decent to pretty good. Very few coaches/managers are "great", and I seriously doubt the Sox will ever have a "great" manager. The issue I've had is the last two seasons, the Sox have done crappy against the division, especially the Twins. His antics don't make things better, and when you aren't getting the job done, it just makes things worse.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 11:49 AM
Because, I can put aside the fact someone is a complete ******* if he does his job. I go to work to work and expect my co-workers to do the same. I'm not there to make friends. I do work with some cool people, but in the 4.5 years I've been there, I have not done a single thing with any of them socially. I can put aside the fact to acknowledge Ozzie's overall performance as a White Sox manager has been decent to pretty good. Very few coaches/managers are "great", and I seriously doubt the Sox will ever have a "great" manager. The issue I've had is the last two seasons, the Sox have done crappy against the division, especially the Twins. His antics don't make things better, and when you aren't getting the job done, it just makes things worse.


So, Ozzie is a despicable human being because he isn't winning as much as you would like?

I don't give a crap where you work or who you hang out with. You slandered someone without a shred of evidence.

You don't like Ozzie, hey, fine with me. You just can't call him a despicable human being because you're pissed off.

Domeshot17
04-21-2011, 12:07 PM
So, Ozzie is a despicable human being because he isn't winning as much as you would like?

I don't give a crap where you work or who you hang out with. You slandered someone without a shred of evidence.

You don't like Ozzie, hey, fine with me. You just can't call him a despicable human being because you're pissed off.

There are plenty of reasons one can question Ozzie as a human being. You would have an easier time defending him as a manager.

Hitmen77
04-21-2011, 12:16 PM
I think we all agree that year after year with the talent we have that this team under-performs. Whats the reason? How many games has Ozzies great management won for the Sox, I will give him an A for 2005. In the first half of 2006 we just beat teams by smashing the hell out of the ball. Since them I give OG a D+ or C-. You can't fire 25 players, I wanted him out of here last year. JR and KW, its time to make the move and send Ozzie packing.

This is exactly how I feel. This team has been under performing for nearly 5 years now and they've had a good amount of talent for most of that time (the exception being 2007). Even when the Sox on the division in 2008, they blew a 6 game lead to the Twins and had to pull the season out of a hat in the end.

Players come and go and the team continues to under perform. They get off to a slow start, go on a tear in June and then fade down the stretch. This year already feels like a lousy rerun. IMO, there are a lot of people that share blame in this, but I really have a hard time seeing what positives Ozzie brings to the team.

The moves he makes with the lineup and bullpen aren't that great. I don't see him effectively motivating the team anymore like he did in 2005. His teams seem to melt down year after year vs. the Twins even as players come and go.

One huge problem with the Sox relationship with Ozzie is that he's become the 'face of the franchise' and our team's celebrity. I think another manager with Ozzie's performance over the last 5 years would have been gone by now....but "it's Ozzie", so he's still here.

I don't think he should be fired right now, but if the Sox fail to make the playoffs again, it's time for him and his coaching staff to go.

jdm2662
04-21-2011, 12:18 PM
So, Ozzie is a despicable human being because he isn't winning as much as you would like?

I don't give a crap where you work or who you hang out with. You slandered someone without a shred of evidence.

You don't like Ozzie, hey, fine with me. You just can't call him a despicable human being because you're pissed off.

Try reading my posts again. I've said Ozzie has done a pretty good job overall as White Sox manager. How this translates to me not liking him as a person for not winning enough games is beyond me. Forgive me for finding him classless and his act an embarassment. Don't get me started his family, either. And yes, forgive me once again, but I find all this despicable. I don't like him for not winning enough games? Please. I have acknowledge many times he is a pretty good manager. That doesn't mean he's not a grade A ******* or has an ego threw the roof.

I'm sorry to offend you, but whatever. I've been one of the more fairer and objective posters on this board on every issues including Ozzie. I never use bias in my posts, and I always look at the complete picture and not nitpicking anything. Sorry, Ozzie's actions and acts speak for themselves. I can get past them if the Sox win, and I can acknowledge his past success. Right now, we are seeing the same crap once again.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Honestly, I don't think this team is bad. Everyone has their funks. The 2005 team lost 7 in a row at one point too. Just like most every player who starts the year hot comes back down to earth (see: Carlos Silva), obviously this might not at all be an indication of how to the rest of the way turns out. This stretch only shows more because it's the first 3 weeks of the season and only 18 games have been played.

Ozzie simply can't be blamed for everything. Personally, I disagree with an aspect or two of the lineup (I don't think Beckham should be hitting second), but when they score 2 runs in 27 innings, Connie Mack would be lucky to win a game. Patience. Things balance themselves out over 162 games.

EDIT: Personally, I think some here just have a vendetta against Ozzie. If you look for reasons to fire him, they will be there, regardless of the situation. I just try to look at it objectively.
Yes they balance out...to mediocrity. History shows it.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 12:26 PM
First off, let me start out by saying I agree with the people who are trashing those who are nic-picking stats just to make themselves look good. You can't have it both ways. You cannot take away someone's accomplishments, no matter what you say or how much you dislike the person. People complaining about Sept. 2005? Give me a break. The Indians went on a 33-11 run. The Sox went 17-12 in 2005, including sweeping the annoited World Series champions with their B team. Sucks, I know. Some of the bias arguments are way over the top, and quite honostly, they are not very fair.

That said, Ozzie's overall performance has been pretty good for the most part. I think he is a decent to good manager, but not great. Very few are great. However, he's not exactly having a good season so far. Also, no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, can defend him as a human being. He is a despicable human being, and his family is an embarssment to the franchise. The drama he causes is simply over the top, and I said way back in 2006 it will get old quick if the team starts to lose. He should've been fired last year, but the team got over to their poor start to have a decent season. However, if the team bows down to the Twins again and plays poorly over all the in division, I can't see how anyone can actually want Ozzie to return. I was all for firing him after last season, but I wasn't upset when they kept them. I would like to think people are over the "fire" and "passion" arugements, but I expect nothing less in Chicago.
See this is a great post to show differences in personal beliefs. I agree with much of what you say. I agree with your opinion of oz and his family. But that doesn't mater to my baseball senses. However I completely disagree with your assessment of his managerial skills. He's a good but not great manager if he was managing a questionable team for the last 6 years. He fulfilled that definition for 2005. Since then on paper they have fielded sound teams and Oz has led them to poor results. He got lucky in 05, he's a bad manager for this organization.

Bucky F. Dent
04-21-2011, 12:28 PM
I love Ozzie. My Sox jersey is no. 13. I've got his autograph on a baseball. But, I am afraid that it is be time to bring in a new voice.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 12:28 PM
There are plenty of reasons one can question Ozzie as a human being. You would have an easier time defending him as a manager.

Spot on. I can ignore his human/family faults if he kept us winning though. Fact is he's a bad manager.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 12:45 PM
Try reading my posts again. I've said Ozzie has done a pretty good job overall as White Sox manager. How this translates to me not liking him as a person for not winning enough games is beyond me. Forgive me for finding him classless and his act an embarassment. Don't get me started his family, either. And yes, forgive me once again, but I find all this despicable. I don't like him for not winning enough games? Please. I have acknowledge many times he is a pretty good manager. That doesn't mean he's not a grade A ******* or has an ego threw the roof.

I'm sorry to offend you, but whatever. I've been one of the more fairer and objective posters on this board on every issues including Ozzie. I never use bias in my posts, and I always look at the complete picture and not nitpicking anything. Sorry, Ozzie's actions and acts speak for themselves. I can get past them if the Sox win, and I can acknowledge his past success. Right now, we are seeing the same crap once again.

You should look up the definition of despicable. Again, you don't like him, fine by me. While he is no saint, he is not "a despicable human being"

He's not a good manager, fine. You don't like him, fine. Just explain to me how he is a despicable human being. Your words.

ThePopeDonnPall
04-21-2011, 01:02 PM
First off, let me start out by saying I agree with the people who are trashing those who are nic-picking stats just to make themselves look good. You can't have it both ways. You cannot take away someone's accomplishments, no matter what you say or how much you dislike the person. People complaining about Sept. 2005? Give me a break. The Indians went on a 33-11 run. The Sox went 17-12 in 2005, including sweeping the annoited World Series champions with their B team. Sucks, I know. Some of the bias arguments are way over the top, and quite honostly, they are not very fair.

That said, Ozzie's overall performance has been pretty good for the most part. I think he is a decent to good manager, but not great. Very few are great. However, he's not exactly having a good season so far. Also, no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, can defend him as a human being. He is a despicable human being, and his family is an embarssment to the franchise. The drama he causes is simply over the top, and I said way back in 2006 it will get old quick if the team starts to lose. He should've been fired last year, but the team got over to their poor start to have a decent season. However, if the team bows down to the Twins again and plays poorly over all the in division, I can't see how anyone can actually want Ozzie to return. I was all for firing him after last season, but I wasn't upset when they kept them. I would like to think people are over the "fire" and "passion" arugements, but I expect nothing less in Chicago.

I'd call murderers and rapists "despicable human beings"; don't think Ozzie quite fits that category

kufram
04-21-2011, 01:15 PM
The word despicable really was a bad choice. Pure hyperbole. I've looked at several definitions and I think it is misplaced. I know Ozzie does charity work and that alone should give him some respite from being described that way. His language is what bothers me the most but I don't think it despicable... just regrettable. Ozzie does make me laugh... usually WITH him, sometimes AT him.

I think his family are none of my business and very easy to ignore.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 01:18 PM
The word despicable really was a bad choice. Pure hyperbole. I've looked at several definitions and I think it is misplaced. I know Ozzie does charity work and that alone should give him some respite from being described that way. His language is what bothers me the most but I don't think it despicable... just regrettable. Ozzie does make me laugh... usually WITH him, sometimes AT him.

I think his family are none of my business and very easy to ignore.


See, sense and logic have no place on message boards.

kufram
04-21-2011, 01:20 PM
See, sense and logic have no place on message boards.

I do wonder if I'm welcome here sometimes.

russ99
04-21-2011, 02:40 PM
Just tired of the constant Ozzie witch hunt primarily about things that have nothing to do with baseball.

If this team doesn't turn it around and we look like a 2007 team by the end of May, even I'll agree that it may be time for a change.

But for everything this guy has done for the club as a player and manager, it really sucks that some fans are stuck on all this perceived BS and can't solely focus on how the man is doing his job.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 03:01 PM
Those of you who have been attacking Ozzie's personality and character, I have a question for you:

Have you ever spent personal time with Ozzie? Are your attacks based on how you know Ozzie personally or as how the mass media image of Ozzie is presented to you? I have never met Ozzie for more than ten seconds, so I cannot comment on what kind of person he is, but people I know who actually spend time with the guy tell me something very different from how he is portrayed in the mass media.

asindc
04-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Those of you who have been attacking Ozzie's personality and character, I have a question for you:

Have you ever spent personal time with Ozzie? Are your attacks based on how you know Ozzie personally or as how the mass media image of Ozzie is presented to you? I have never met Ozzie for more than ten seconds, so I cannot comment on what kind of person he is, but people I know who actually spend time with the guy tell me something very different from how he is portrayed in the mass media.

I'll put it this way: I have a very good friend who worked in the FO for years in a capacity that had her interacting with everyone in the organization, JR on down. She told me that Ozzie was hands-down her favorite person in the organization.

Gavin
04-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Those of you who have been attacking Ozzie's personality and character, I have a question for you:

Have you ever spent personal time with Ozzie? Are your attacks based on how you know Ozzie personally or as how the mass media image of Ozzie is presented to you? I have never met Ozzie for more than ten seconds, so I cannot comment on what kind of person he is, but people I know who actually spend time with the guy tell me something very different from how he is portrayed in the mass media.

I'll probably never meet Ozzie, but that doesn't stop anybody from criticizing the way he affects the team I like. I don't like the way Ozzie personally portrays himself and the way his family affects the image of the the team I like. I'm talking about the things he says, his lack of controlling his kids, his defiant stubbornness in change, etc. (Really, your kid is tweeting about an ex-Sox player and you do nothing?) All of these things affect the White Sox' reputation, their image, and the results. He's not a victim of the "mass media".. I don't buy that for a second.

Like it's been posted before, I wouldn't care about the image as much if he still won--or came off looking like he was trying to win. At this point, he's doing head-scratching stuff on an almost nightly basis. How long is he allowed to ride out a World Series win? It's not like they've come close ever since.

Moses_Scurry
04-21-2011, 03:44 PM
Well 5 of the last 7 Sox managers have won the Manager of the Year award within their first couple years. 6/7 if you don't count the moron Terry Bevington. So a change might be good.

However, I would like to have a Sox manager who has a long tenure and is identified as the face of the team a la an Earl Weaver/Bobby Cox/Tommy LaSorda type. I also tend to hold onto the past more than most, and since I never saw it before and I may never see it again, I still hold onto 2005.

I went with the wishy-washy gutless answer (#4). I don't want him fired, but I won't be upset if he is.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 03:55 PM
I'll probably never meet Ozzie, but that doesn't stop anybody from criticizing the way he affects the team I like. I don't like the way Ozzie personally portrays himself and the way his family affects the image of the the team I like. I'm talking about the things he says, his lack of controlling his kids, his defiant stubbornness in change, etc. (Really, your kid is tweeting about an ex-Sox player and you do nothing?) All of these things affect the White Sox' reputation, their image, and the results. He's not a victim of the "mass media".. I don't buy that for a second.

Like it's been posted before, I wouldn't care about the image as much if he still won--or came off looking like he was trying to win. At this point, he's doing head-scratching stuff on an almost nightly basis. How long is he allowed to ride out a World Series win? It's not like they've come close ever since.
Having once worked in an industry where the main players are constantly in the media and their image is their only asset, let me just say that how a person who is frequently in the media is portrayed is usually not how they really are. The media loves conflict, it brings in the numbers. The editors and reporters will frame the message in a light that conforms to their notion of how the person should look. Having worked with people whose media reputations are not a close match to reality, I know it is entirely possible Ozzie is not what the press makes him look like. The press controls the message.

Don't think that if the Sox or Ozzie complained to the media about unfairness, if there is unfairness, is the answer. All that does is buy you more negative press.

kufram
04-21-2011, 04:08 PM
Winning would make you see him in a different light as a person? Winning would mean you could overlook the fact that he is despicable in your eyes? Hmmm.

Gavin
04-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Winning would make you see him in a different light as a person? Winning would mean you could overlook the fact that he is despicable in your eyes? Hmmm.

Winning would make me see him in a different light as a coach. But now I'm being told he's a real stand-up guy in real life so maybe next I'll be told he's a great manager, too, and I'm just not seeing it.

Paulwny
04-21-2011, 04:42 PM
Winning would make me see him in a different light as a coach. But now I'm being told he's a real stand-up guy in real life so maybe next I'll be told he's a great manager, too, and I'm just not seeing it.


Dr Jekyll---- Mr Hyde

mzh
04-21-2011, 04:53 PM
Among active managers, Ozzie has the 6th highest winning percentage in baseball. of the first 5, one is a HOFer, and one had a championship bought for him. He is better than the vaunted Terry Francona, who's players juiced their way to a couple championships. I understand that you may not like his managerial tactics, but he is a proven winner. Since 2004, the Sox have been in the playoffs twice. In that same stretch, 15 teams have been in the playoffs less than the Sox. In that period, those 15 teams have had a combined 58 managers, almost one every 2 years for each team. In most cases it hasn't done jack ****, unless you're replacing Dave Trembley with Buck Showalter like Baltimore. This says to me that people like to use managers as a scapegoat, and when we have the 6th winningest manager in baseball, find another scapegoat.

Also, Cito Gaston has a lower winning percentage in more games than Ozzie, and after winning the World Series led his team to 3rd, 5th, 4th, and 5th place finishes. Good manager, but I don't see nothin' special.

soltrain21
04-21-2011, 04:58 PM
Among active managers, Ozzie has the 6th highest winning percentage in baseball. of the first 5, one is a HOFer, and one had a championship bought for him. He is better than the vaunted Terry Francona, who's players juiced their way to a couple championships. I understand that you may not like his managerial tactics, but he is a proven winner. Since 2004, the Sox have been in the playoffs twice. In that same stretch, 15 teams have been in the playoffs less than the Sox. In that period, those 15 teams have had a combined 58 managers, almost one every 2 years for each team. In most cases it hasn't done jack ****, unless you're replacing Dave Trembley with Buck Showalter like Baltimore. This says to me that people like to use managers as a scapegoat, and when we have the 6th winningest manager in baseball, find another scapegoat.

Also, Cito Gaston has a lower winning percentage in more games than Ozzie, and after winning the World Series led his team to 3rd, 5th, 4th, and 5th place finishes. Good manager, but I don't see nothin' special.

Cool - so he gets first place talent every year to finish a little over .500 but miss the playoffs.

The AL Central sucks. There is no reason that this team shouldn't be winning the division every year. We are too busy losing to Cleveland and KC and tripping over ourselves trying to compliment the Minnesota Twins.

Gavin
04-21-2011, 05:20 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/9lhf9i.jpg

Yeah, Francona sucks.... at being inconsistent.

kufram
04-21-2011, 05:43 PM
Winning would make me see him in a different light as a coach. But now I'm being told he's a real stand-up guy in real life so maybe next I'll be told he's a great manager, too, and I'm just not seeing it.

I think you are right. You are just not seeing it.

SOXSINCE'70
04-21-2011, 05:53 PM
Well we won a championship in one of those, and that counts for something.

It's something Eddie Stanky, Chuck Tanner,Al Lopez and Tony LaRussa
couldn't do.Yes, it does count for something.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2011, 06:07 PM
It's something Eddie Stanky, Chuck Tanner,Al Lopez and Tony LaRussa
couldn't do.Yes, it does count for something.

Al Lopez is in the HOF because of his great managing skills, I wonder what he would have done with the talent Ozzie has had.

SlowMotion
04-21-2011, 06:12 PM
This whole idea of putting managers on a pedestal is tiresome. They either benefit from a good group of players and don't from a bad group. Managers do stuff like set lineups (which is, can and should be done mostly by computer anyway), pull/leave in pitchers, trot out to the mound, call for a (sac) bunt, deal with the media and give a voice to the clubhouse.

It's many of these small things Ozzie is failing at that are costing the Sox games. Just really boneheaded stuff like making Thornton the closer, mishandling Beckham and Sale, insisting on playing Kotsay and Teahen et all. Not to mention the pr disaster his tenure has been for at least a few years now. It's hard to tell if he's just really stubborn or doesn't have much of a clue or both.

He's worn out his welcome in my opinion. Ultimately though, it's the group of guys that decide for themselves their fate.

Lip Man 1
04-21-2011, 06:32 PM
Ozzie told Mark Gonzales of the Tribune today that he's not worried about his job but if he has to he can do with Manny Ramirez did and go watch the bullfights in Spain or manage in Venezuela or go work for Fox Sports. He said "Fox Sports wants me bad..."

Lip

SlowMotion
04-21-2011, 06:39 PM
:rolling:

Domeshot17
04-21-2011, 06:41 PM
In terms of Ozzie as a person, I have not met him outside Sox fest. I have some connections in the Braves front office, and I have heard a lot of stuff. So much so that while some thought Ozzie would be the front runner to replace Cox, the Braves never even once considered bringing him back. The main reasons: His ego, how he handles and presents himself, his family, and along some of the same lines, his thinking that he is bigger than the team.

My friend in the Braves FO said once "Ozzie is the type of guy who will always great you with a smile, but thinks the front of the Jersey should read GUILLEN, not Atlanta"

To be honest, I loved Ozzie in 2005. He stayed out of his own way a lot. I think he did luck out some, but you have to win a world series. It is impossible to make bad bullpen choices when your pen just gets everyone out.

My 2 problems are results and the players. (1) I define any season that misses the playoffs as a total and complete failure, and a first round sweep/ass kicking doesn't sit much better. You make the ALCS, you give yourself a CHANCE to win a title, its a successful year. I know some posters here define a good season as 83 wins. In that case, they will always be happy with Ozzie.

But 2006 was the bad combo of Ozzie tinkering and Buehrle and Jose falling apart. 2007 was a disaster on many levels. 2008 was disappointing with the talent we had, 2009 was a joke and 2010 wasn't much better. The guy has had 1 successful year, possibly 2.

(2) I think the players stopped responding to him a long time ago. The way he ruined Sean Tracey's career was bad and defining. You hear the solid leaders of this team turning on him. Konerko and Thornton mentioning how distracting he and his family are. For Matt Thornton (who could be the nicest human being ever) to say something negative, you know its there. On top of that, every time he flips off the handle, the players just write it off as Ozzie being Ozzie.

ZombieRob
04-21-2011, 06:49 PM
Would this Sox team be as bad if Joel Madden was managing this team instead of Guillen?

GoSox2K3
04-21-2011, 07:19 PM
So far, it looks like about 2/3 of the people responding to this poll want Ozzie gone now or want to consider it if the Sox are still struggling by Memorial Day. A mere 12% think Ozzie is blameless for the Sox struggles.

The most damning thing about Ozzie is that I have yet to hear any good arguments in this thread of what positive impact Ozzie has on this team. It's either the "you can never blame the manager for poor player performance" excuse or the "he's better than Jerry Manual or Joey Cora" excuse.

mzh
04-21-2011, 07:41 PM
So far, it looks like about 2/3 of the people responding to this poll want Ozzie gone now or want to consider it if the Sox are still struggling by Memorial Day. A mere 12% think Ozzie is blameless for the Sox struggles.

The most damning thing about Ozzie is that I have yet to hear any good arguments in this thread of what positive impact Ozzie has on this team. It's either the "you can never blame the manager for poor player performance" excuse or the "he's better than Jerry Manual or Joey Cora" excuse.
What positive things has Tony La Russa done for Oakland in St. Louis? It's a managers job to win, and yes, the Sox have been horribly inconsistent under Ozzie. But right now it is too early to jump the gun. To say it "already" looks like a mediocre year is like saying it looked like Konerko was going to hit 70 home runs after his hot start last April.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 08:03 PM
:rolling:

You just start laughing for no reason?:?:

Would this Sox team be as bad if Joel Madden was managing this team instead of Guillen?
Impossible to answer. 100% speculative.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 08:04 PM
What positive things has Tony La Russa done for Oakland in St. Louis?
He ignored the vitamin supplements his players were taking.

GoSox2K3
04-21-2011, 09:43 PM
What positive things has Tony La Russa done for Oakland in St. Louis? It's a managers job to win, and yes, the Sox have been horribly inconsistent under Ozzie. But right now it is too early to jump the gun. To say it "already" looks like a mediocre year is like saying it looked like Konerko was going to hit 70 home runs after his hot start last April.

:rolleyes: What does Tony LaRussa have to do with this?

Once again, the Ozpologists have weak arguments to make.

mzh
04-21-2011, 09:58 PM
:rolleyes: What does Tony LaRussa have to do with this?

Once again, the Ozpologists have weak arguments to make.
I'm naming a great manager who has known to be kind of a douche, and using him as a parable to what exactly 'positive things for the organization' any manager does. :rolleyes:Once again, the haters refuse to make a response to any argument the other side has to offer.

Lip Man 1
04-21-2011, 10:01 PM
Ozzie isn't going to be changing his "bunting philosophy" any time soon:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/cbsports-bunting-sticks-with-guillen-20110421,0,2545592.story

Lip

russ99
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
It's many of these small things Ozzie is failing at that are costing the Sox games. Just really boneheaded stuff like making Thornton the closer, mishandling Beckham and Sale, insisting on playing Kotsay and Teahen et all. Not to mention the pr disaster his tenure has been for at least a few years now. It's hard to tell if he's just really stubborn or doesn't have much of a clue or both.

All of which is complete hyperbole and propping up fan-decided favorites over smart baseball decisions which are made by Ozzie, his staff and the front office.

Please, tell me how Ozzie has mishandled Beckham and Sale. Kenny and his staff have decided they were to start in the big leagues when they did.

If you hate Ozzie because he played Kotsay and Teahen and supposedly didn't give Anderson a fair shake, that's pretty sad.

Ozzie seems to be a convenient focal point for fan ire about any subject, whether he's responsible or not.

russ99
04-21-2011, 10:16 PM
:rolleyes: What does Tony LaRussa have to do with this?

Once again, the Ozpologists have weak arguments to make.

Really weak arguments:
World Series trophy; 607 career wins, 3rd all time in Sox history.

The haters are the ones with the weak arguments.

BTW - using "Ozpologist" is ridculously demeaning. I don't apologize that Ozzie's been the best White Sox manager in my lifetime, and I'm 44.

sox1970
04-21-2011, 10:44 PM
Would this Sox team be as bad if Joel Madden was managing this team instead of Guillen?

The guy from Good Charlotte can manage baseball? Sweet.

A. Cavatica
04-22-2011, 09:00 AM
Ozzie isn't going to be changing his "bunting philosophy" any time soon:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/cbsports-bunting-sticks-with-guillen-20110421,0,2545592.story

Lip

"Iím not going to change my philosophy,'' Guillen said. "I donít know any different because if I donít do it and somebody hits a ground ball double play, thatís not my way."

Like I've said time and time again, he doesn't learn from his mistakes. It's hard to believe, but he really believes he was a good hitter and wants to mold the team in his image.

Jerko
04-22-2011, 09:57 AM
"Iím not going to change my philosophy,'' Guillen said. "I donít know any different because if I donít do it and somebody hits a ground ball double play, thatís not my way."

Like I've said time and time again, he doesn't learn from his mistakes. It's hard to believe, but he really believes he was a good hitter and wants to mold the team in his image.

HAHAHAHAHA right. I guess with first base open the other team can't intentionally walk a guy to set up the DP again anyway. I can see it now. 9th inning, Sox down a run, leadoff single, we bunt to avoid the DP, so now there's one out with a guy on 2nd. Intentional walk, guys on 1st and 2nd, bunt again to avoid the DP. Come on Ozzie make up a better bull**** excuse than that.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-22-2011, 10:52 AM
HAHAHAHAHA right. I guess with first base open the other team can't intentionally walk a guy to set up the DP again anyway. I can see it now. 9th inning, Sox down a run, leadoff single, we bunt to avoid the DP, so now there's one out with a guy on 2nd. Intentional walk, guys on 1st and 2nd, bunt again to avoid the DP. Come on Ozzie make up a better bull**** excuse than that.

Why the teal? I can totally see Ozzie doing that.

Although if the Sox are the home team in this scenario, I'm not too sure they'd intentionally walk the second guy, because they wouldn't want to put the winning run on base.

Nellie_Fox
04-22-2011, 11:58 AM
...he really believes he was a good hitter and wants to mold the team in his image.No, he doesn't. I've heard him say on several occasions that he was "a horse**** hitter."

A. Cavatica
04-22-2011, 04:35 PM
No, he doesn't. I've heard him say on several occasions that he was "a horse**** hitter."

Well, for once I agree with him.

TDog
04-22-2011, 04:54 PM
The best managing Guillen did was stay out of the pitchers way in the 2005 World Series. Unfortunately for the last 6 years, he insists on his imprint on every game. He wants to manage a NL team, let him go manage one. Guillen played out in this town a long time ago. I was hoping he would leave after Series. Reinsdorf forced this man on Kenny who wanted Cito Gaston. But Reinsdorf didn't want to pay him.

I don't want to go through the thread to see if anyone has pointed this out, but Guillen averaged four pitching changes per game in the 2005 World Series. In two of the four games he had leads going into the Astros' last at bats, he took out the pitcher who started the inning and got into trouble. Even the final game, a shutout, required four pitchers. The winning run, which scored on a two-out single, reached base as a pinch-hitter and was in scoring position because of a sacrifice bunt.

Guillen's imprint on the 2005 Sox was just as evident as it has been since. And around here, people complain as loudly about moves Guillen doesn't make as the ones he does make.

But I understand some people would prefer to believe the revisionist history.

Domeshot17
04-22-2011, 05:14 PM
I don't want to go through the thread to see if anyone has pointed this out, but Guillen averaged four pitching changes per game in the 2005 World Series. In two of the four games he had leads going into the Astros' last at bats, he took out the pitcher who started the inning and got into trouble. Even the final game, a shutout, required four pitchers. The winning run, which scored on a two-out single, reached base as a pinch-hitter and was in scoring position because of a sacrifice bunt.

Guillen's imprint on the 2005 Sox was just as evident as it has been since. And around here, people complain as loudly about moves Guillen doesn't make as the ones he does make.

But I understand some people would prefer to believe the revisionist history.

True, but it doesn't hurt when Neil Cotts, Cliff Politte and Dustin Hermanson all have career years and get EVERYONE and ANYONE out.

asindc
04-22-2011, 05:35 PM
True, but it doesn't hurt when Neil Cotts, Cliff Politte and Dustin Hermanson all have career years and get EVERYONE and ANYONE out.

Yes, but isn't that the crux of the matter: Is it Ozzie's approach that is wrong or the players failing to execute?

Gavin
04-22-2011, 05:38 PM
I don't want to go through the thread to see if anyone has pointed this out, but Guillen averaged four pitching changes per game in the 2005 World Series. In two of the four games he had leads going into the Astros' last at bats, he took out the pitcher who started the inning and got into trouble. Even the final game, a shutout, required four pitchers. The winning run, which scored on a two-out single, reached base as a pinch-hitter and was in scoring position because of a sacrifice bunt.

Guillen's imprint on the 2005 Sox was just as evident as it has been since. And around here, people complain as loudly about moves Guillen doesn't make as the ones he does make.

But I understand some people would prefer to believe the revisionist history.

For the one trillionth time, 2005 is over.

kufram
04-22-2011, 06:36 PM
For the one trillionth time, 2005 is over.

It can be said 5 trillion times, doesn't matter. The Chicago White Sox won the World Series. I was 54 at the time and became a fan when I was 8. I never thought it could happen although I never gave up hope that it would. It is simply the greatest thing to have ever happened outside my daughter breathing every day for the past 22 years, and I've had my share of personal triumphs.

Of course, winning it again would be a fantastic thing and now we know it is not outside the realm of possibility so our demands have grown. Still, it is sad that it is condemned to the dustbin quite so easily quite so soon. It is not as simple to win the WS as some seem to think.... spend the most money, buy the best players, make the right calls. Doing all of those things still does not guarantee even getting to a WS let alone winning one.

Domeshot17
04-22-2011, 06:43 PM
Yes, but isn't that the crux of the matter: Is it Ozzie's approach that is wrong or the players failing to execute?

After this many years of failure, its become evident that Ozzie is the only constant

TDog
04-22-2011, 06:59 PM
For the one trillionth time, 2005 is over.

I wasn't the one who brought up 2005, only responding to someone from the dump-Ozzie crowd who brought it up and got it wrong.

There is a difference between keeping 2005 in perspective with what it means to recent White Sox history and cheapening what made it special to White Sox fans by demeaning the accomplishment.

SI1020
04-22-2011, 08:22 PM
Yes, but isn't that the crux of the matter: Is it Ozzie's approach that is wrong or the players failing to execute? The problem is he seems to have a one size fits all approach, at least where bunting is concerned. What worked well one time or one year, may not the next time or the next year. In baseball and in life change and adjustments are the norm.

wilburaga
04-22-2011, 08:35 PM
For the one trillionth time, 2005 is over.

Not for me. Not ever.

Viva Medias B's
04-22-2011, 08:38 PM
Not for me. Not ever.

2005 was the greatest year for us, and we will never forget it. However, let us not be blinded from our team's lack of success by 2005.

A. Cavatica
04-22-2011, 08:46 PM
Not for me. Not ever.

Yeah, let's get Pods and Rowand and Contreras and Garland back. If it worked before, it can work again.

Daver
04-22-2011, 08:48 PM
Yes, but isn't that the crux of the matter: Is it Ozzie's approach that is wrong or the players failing to execute?

The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

soxinem1
04-22-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't have the Ozzie love or hate some people here do. I do think he has overplayed his stay as a manager here, but this bad stretch does not mean he should be canned, at least not this early.

If this is the manager the team committed to opening up the season with, then stick to it.

I think this poll should be posted again in two months if they are 15-20 games over .500..... or 15-20 games under .500.

Red Barchetta
04-22-2011, 10:29 PM
My only issue when it comes to any "fire the manager" talk is who will be the replacement? The SOX organization under JR has never went out and hired a proven, winning manager. Ozzie is Ozzie, however look at the history of non-proven managers ; Manuel, Bevington, Lemont, Torborg, etc.

I know Cito Gaston's name was in the mix the year they hired Ozzie, however I don't think JR goes that route.

In the end, I don't think anything will happen to Ozzie this season regardless of the record, good or bad. If they have a really bad season, expect a fire sale in August and Ozzie quits at the end of the season and takes the Miami job. JR will let him out of his contract and KW may actually be able to hire, for the first time in his tenure as GM, his choice for manager.

However, if they turn it around, we will all be laughing at this thread in September. I hope so!

Lip Man 1
04-22-2011, 10:39 PM
Red:

Depends on what you mean by "proven".

The Sox hired Jim Fregosi who had previous managerial experience as did Jeff Torborg.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just clarifying.

If you are looking for the Sox to hire, if they were to become available, a two or three time Manager of the Year, say a Joe Torre-type or a Dusty Baker- type or a Lou Piniella- type or a Tony LaRussa-type, that's not going to hapen.

Right or wrong (like with the Bulls) this ownership will not spend the kind of money needed to pay a manager / coach like that. If they wouldn't do it for a guy who helped win six NBA titles, they aren't going to do that for anybody.

Lip

Red Barchetta
04-22-2011, 10:48 PM
Red:

Depends on what you mean by "proven".

The Sox hired Jim Fregosi who had previous managerial experience as did Jeff Torborg.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just clarifying.

If you are looking for the Sox to hire, if they were to become available, a two or three time Manager of the Year, say a Joe Torre-type or a Dusty Baker- type or a Lou Piniella- type or a Tony LaRussa-type, that's not going to hapen.

Right or wong (like with the Bulls) this ownership will not spend the kind of money needed to pay a manager / coach like that. If they wouldn't do it for a guy who helped win six NBA titles, they aren't going to do that for anybody.

Lip

You're right Lip. Perhaps I should have clarified. By proven, I mean a proven "winning" manager who has lead teams to division/league and WS titles. I forgot Torborg had managed already. Irrelevant argument I guess, considering most of these guys already have jobs. Joe Madden is not going anywhere. :(:

TDog
04-22-2011, 10:49 PM
Red:

Depends on what you mean by "proven".

The Sox hired Jim Fregosi who had previous managerial experience as did Jeff Torborg.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just clarifying.

If you are looking for the Sox to hire, if they were to become available, a two or three time Manager of the Year, say a Joe Torre-type or a Dusty Baker- type or a Lou Piniella- type or a Tony LaRussa-type, that's not going to hapen.

Right or wong (like with the Bulls) this ownership will not spend the kind of money needed to pay a manager / coach like that. If they wouldn't do it for a guy who helped win six NBA titles, they aren't going to do that for anybody.

Lip

And, of course, hiring Dusty Baker-types and Lou Piniella-types, and even Leo Durocher-types worked so well for the Cubs.

Lip Man 1
04-22-2011, 10:52 PM
TDog:

My point being, as I thought I explained sufficiently, is that a "multiple Manager of the Year" type is not going to be coming to the Sox. Those are the names that immediately came to mind.

It is not a comment in any way, shape or form on the "Cubs" and I didn't realize Joe Torre managed the Cubs...:rolleyes: (maybe in a parallel universe...)

Lip

TDog
04-22-2011, 11:37 PM
TDog:

My point being, as I thought I explained sufficiently, is that a "multiple Manager of the Year" type is not going to be coming to the Sox. Those are the names that immediately came to mind.

It is not a comment in any way, shape or form on the "Cubs" and I didn't realize Joe Torre managed the Cubs...:rolleyes: (maybe in a parallel universe...)

Lip

I don't believe I accused Joe Torre of managing the Cubs.

The fact is that Leo Durocher (who is in the Hall of Fame as a manager), Dusty Baker and Lou Piniella all managed the Cubs at a time when many people believed they were fielding teams that were among the best in baseball. And despite their credentials, those managers are accused by many of hurting the Cubs.

The Dodgers, a franchise that hired Leo Durocher to manage when he was the unproven choice over Babe Ruth, who believed he had been promised the job, did hire Torre. It didn't do them much good. The most successful Dodgers managers were unproven when they came to Brooklyn or Los Angeles.

Managers with credentials are just as likely to disappoint fans as managers with less experience. I have no problem with not paying big money to a former manager to come out of retirement when there was probably a reason he went into retirement in the first place.

Dub25
04-23-2011, 12:24 AM
Wow, just logged in for the 1st time in a week or so, saw this thread, and only read the 1st page and figured the trend was against Ozzie.
From what I can gather, they are now 8-12. Should be at least 12-8. And I ask myself??? This is because of Ozzie and not the GM that gave him a bullpen that can't get anyone out??? Or has outfielders that can't catch a ball???
Oh well, when a team wins the manager gets all the credit and when they lose they get all the blame.

daveeym
04-23-2011, 09:30 AM
Wow, just logged in for the 1st time in a week or so, saw this thread, and only read the 1st page and figured the trend was against Ozzie.
From what I can gather, they are now 8-12. Should be at least 12-8. And I ask myself??? This is because of Ozzie and not the GM that gave him a bullpen that can't get anyone out??? Or has outfielders that can't catch a ball???
Oh well, when a team wins the manager gets all the credit and when they lose they get all the blame.
I don't know how you can analyze the players and say they should be 12-8 and then put the blame on Kenny. If it's just the players given to Ozzie by Kenny then the Sox are right where they should be, 8-12, since he's not calling the shots on the field.

JB98
04-23-2011, 01:45 PM
I don't know how you can analyze the players and say they should be 12-8 and then put the blame on Kenny. If it's just the players given to Ozzie by Kenny then the Sox are right where they should be, 8-12, since he's not calling the shots on the field.

Agreed. 2007 and 2009 were KW's fault. Not this year. This 2011 roster looks good enough to win. Right now, it's not winning because the players and the manager are both sucking.

canOcorn
04-23-2011, 05:37 PM
Only the most kool-aid swilling fan doesn't see that this team has quit on Ozzie. Please replace this fool now, JR, and save this season.

dickallen15
04-23-2011, 07:23 PM
It would depend on the replacement for me to have an opinion about firing Ozzie. If its Bell or Cora, you might as well keep Ozzie. I'm sure he has a long leash but the Sox did fire Gene Lamont 31 games into 1995 after 2 consecutive first place finishes, and JR said he deserved it. He was replaced by Terry Bevington. Be careful what you wish for.

Red Barchetta
04-23-2011, 08:16 PM
It would depend on the replacement for me to have an opinion about firing Ozzie. If its Bell or Cora, you might as well keep Ozzie. I'm sure he has a long leash but the Sox did fire Gene Lamont 31 games into 1995 after 2 consecutive first place finishes, and JR said he deserved it. He was replaced by Terry Bevington. Be careful what you wish for.

Please no. We should only have to suffer through a Bevington era once in our lifetime.

I just think the team has tuned Ozzie out. Not sure if that is good or bad. A lot of the veterans look disinterested and a lot of the younger players look lost.

Brian26
04-23-2011, 08:31 PM
Please no. We should only have to suffer through a Bevington era once in our lifetime.

I just think the team has tuned Ozzie out. Not sure if that is good or bad. A lot of the veterans look disinterested and a lot of the younger players look lost.

I have mixed feelings on Ozzie.

I became sick of the knucklehead managerial moves a long time ago. Still, I think I'll miss him when he's gone. However, honestly, the Ozzie that I'll miss hasn't been here for a long time. The Ozzie we're seeing now is mailing it in every night. The dude wants to be in Miami. His knucklehead kids (well, at least two of them) want to be in Miami. Let him go. While you're at it, let Coop go so he can finally get his Yankees job after the season. Buehrle will finally be able to go to STL too, so there will be a nice karmatic purging after this year.

TDog
04-23-2011, 10:51 PM
I have mixed feelings on Ozzie.

I became sick of the knucklehead managerial moves a long time ago. Still, I think I'll miss him when he's gone. However, honestly, the Ozzie that I'll miss hasn't been here for a long time. The Ozzie we're seeing now is mailing it in every night. The dude wants to be in Miami. His knucklehead kids (well, at least two of them) want to be in Miami. Let him go. While you're at it, let Coop go so he can finally get his Yankees job after the season. Buehrle will finally be able to go to STL too, so there will be a nice karmatic purging after this year.

I think there was a change in Guillen after he went through the sensitivity training. And if you look at where the Sox were at the time and how they have done since, that appears to be where things turned around for the franchise. I don't think Guilen is mailing it in, but I believe he is supposed to behave publicly acting in a way that might give that impression.

Personally, I don't care who Guillen offends as long as they win. He could scream obscenities at me in the parking lot, and I wouldn't care, as long as the White Sox win. But despite his winning, many fans wanted him fired for what he said. Now he's kinder and gentler, and they want him fired for not winning. I don't know that he has lost any of his edge, and certainly I don't believe he is managing not to offend people. I actually respect that he makes moves that most people disagree with. For one thing, they are moves most managers would make in his situation, and for another, it shows that he is managing to win, not to be popular. I think what looks like going though the motions is the behavior fans demanded of a winning manager they found offensive.

I don't believe Guillen has lost the team. I don't believe that Adam Dunn and Alex Rios cannot hit, but I also don't believe they don't hit because Guillen doesn't inspire them to. I don't believe Juan Pierre is a great outfielder who is playing it poorly because his manager has lost him.

I believe the team is going through a slump triggered by bad bullpen work compounded by bad defense, explaining personnel weaknesses. Rios isn't hitting, which probably wasn't expect. Dunn isn't hitting, which probably should have been anticipating considering he was adjusting to a new league and the role of DH. Still, the hitting didn't collapse until it seemed to begin to press after losing a few seemingly safe leads. And suddenly, after winning six of their first nine games, the April 2011 White Sox are a mirror of the April 2010 White Sox.

I don't particularly like the makeup of the team, and pointed that out long before the fact. I haven't liked the decisions related to building the bullpen. I find the lack of strong defensive outfielders perplexing. I suppose Guillen could lead off Ramirez or Lillibridge and put Quentin in left, but there really isn't a strong defensive rightfielder (something I have been ridiculed for wanting for a long time) on the bench.

I don't think this team is anywhere near as bad as they are playing, but I don't believe Guillen is the reason they are playing so bad.

Brian26
04-23-2011, 11:10 PM
TDog-

That's a great post.

Just for clarity, one thing stuck out to me today. I'm not sure if you saw the game. There was a close play at the plate on an errant thrown by Alexei with the infield drawn-in. Pierzynski had to go to his right to catch the ball and then come back with a sweep tag. The throw beat the runner, but the ump called him safe. The replay verified the umpire made the correct call, but I was a little surprised Guillen didn't come out to talk to the ump about it. He didn't move off the bench.

dickallen15
04-24-2011, 07:59 AM
TDog-

That's a great post.

Just for clarity, one thing stuck out to me today. I'm not sure if you saw the game. There was a close play at the plate on an errant thrown by Alexei with the infield drawn-in. Pierzynski had to go to his right to catch the ball and then come back with a sweep tag. The throw beat the runner, but the ump called him safe. The replay verified the umpire made the correct call, but I was a little surprised Guillen didn't come out to talk to the ump about it. He didn't move off the bench.

In fairness to Ozzie, he supposedly has the flu.

TDog
04-24-2011, 01:12 PM
TDog-

That's a great post.

Just for clarity, one thing stuck out to me today. I'm not sure if you saw the game. There was a close play at the plate on an errant thrown by Alexei with the infield drawn-in. Pierzynski had to go to his right to catch the ball and then come back with a sweep tag. The throw beat the runner, but the ump called him safe. The replay verified the umpire made the correct call, but I was a little surprised Guillen didn't come out to talk to the ump about it. He didn't move off the bench.

I didn't have the opportunity to see the game. Fox, in NoCal, was doing its job and showing the Giants game. If Pierzynski had been arguing with the call, you would expect Guillen to come out. Managers generally take their cues from players on close calls.

SI1020
04-24-2011, 03:18 PM
I think there was a change in Guillen after he went through the sensitivity training. And if you look at where the Sox were at the time and how they have done since, that appears to be where things turned around for the franchise. I don't think Guilen is mailing it in, but I believe he is supposed to behave publicly acting in a way that might give that impression.
I agree.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2011, 06:16 PM
I disagree with this assesment. Look at the number of times Ozzie has exploded in the past calling out Kenny, calling out his players... telling Sox fans in so many words, 'screw you,' if you don't like it don't watch us. (Which based on comments here at WSI seem to be taking his advice..) That doesn't sound like Ozzie absorbed a lot of sensativity training to me. LOL.

I think the Mariotti incident is part of the situation but not a large part.

Ozzie's ego is driving this train, he refuses to acknowledge his mistakes and usually reverts back to the "macho" in your face approach that simply hasn't worked anymore. And he's making more and more mistakes.

Lip

SI1020
04-24-2011, 06:21 PM
I disagree with this assesment. Look at the number of times Ozzie has exploded in the past calling out Kenny, calling out his playters... telling Sox fans in so many words, 'screw you,' if you don't like it don't watch us. (Which based on comments here at WSI seem to be taking his advice..) That doesn't sound like Ozzie absorbed a lot of sensativity training to me. LOL.

I think the Mariotti incident is part of the situation but not a large part.

Ozzie's ego is driving this train, he refuses to acknowledge his mistakes and usually reverts back to the "macho" in your face approach that simply hasn't worked anymore. And he's making more and mor mistakes.

Lip I hear what you're saying but I think it offended him deeply and shot his confidence. Ozzie sometimes makes lots of noise to cover up his insecurities.

TDog
04-24-2011, 06:52 PM
I disagree with this assesment. Look at the number of times Ozzie has exploded in the past calling out Kenny, calling out his playters... telling Sox fans in so many words, 'screw you,' if you don't like it don't watch us. (Which based on comments here at WSI seem to be taking his advice..) That doesn't sound like Ozzie absorbed a lot of sensativity training to me. LOL.

I think the Mariotti incident is part of the situation but not a large part.

Ozzie's ego is driving this train, he refuses to acknowledge his mistakes and usually reverts back to the "macho" in your face approach that simply hasn't worked anymore. And he's making more and mor mistakes.

Lip

Compared to Jerry Manuel, Guillen looks like a maniac. Compared to where Guillen started, he definitely feels kinder and gentler. I've always felt he has reined himself in since the sensitivity training. There is no way, though, for anyone to know if he downslide of that season and the White Six failure to play at the same level since the incident is just coincidental.

I was sorrier that people made an issue over what Guillen said than the fact that he said it. I really don't care if the White Six manager offends me personally. I care much more if the team he manages on the field offends me with their baseball.

But i really don't believe Guillen is making that many mistakes. People are complaining about bunting, but bunting is the only way the Six can get runners into scoring position. The players who are bunting aren't hitting. The Six even led the American League in being caught stealing going into Sunday's game.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2011, 07:19 PM
SI:

Only Ozzie knows if what you say is true or not...I have no idea but if that is the case than for the good of the club he needed to resign a few years ago.

You have to be yourself, come hell or high water, if Ozzie couldn't adapt to what was being asked of him then he should have left.

If he's trying to manage a different way than what he'd normally do, that what good is that doing for anybody?

That smacks of some of these players just going through the motions to collect a paycheck. I hope that's not the case with a guy who cares as much as he does about the Sox and respects the game like he does...but who knows for sure.

Lip

TDog
04-24-2011, 08:17 PM
... That smacks of some of these players just going through the motions to collect a paycheck. I hope that's not the case with a guy who cares as much as he does about the Sox and respects the game like he does...but who knows for sure.

Lip

If the player who has hit about .118 and averaged well over 1 strikeout a game since having a strong opening day after just signing a four-year, $56 million contract to do nothing but hit is going through the motions to collect his paycheck because the veteran manager on the team he chose to play for is too weak to do something about it, the problem isn't the manager. It isn't even the hitting coach.

Noneck
04-24-2011, 08:19 PM
It will happen, maybe sooner than later. When it does happen, I doubt Ozwaldo will walk away nicely. He didnt when he left the Sox as a player and wont as a manager, zebras cant change their stripes. As I have said before, I dont understand what Reinsdorf sees in him as a person.

TheVulture
04-24-2011, 08:36 PM
I've been off the Ozzie bandwagon since about the tenth time I saw Kotsay batting 3rd or 5th in the order. I didn't even have a problem with the lack of a regular DH, just put Kotsay in the eighth spot for crying out loud! That had to have cost the Sox some games last year...

PKalltheway
04-25-2011, 03:07 PM
I believe the team is going through a slump triggered by bad bullpen work compounded by bad defense, explaining personnel weaknesses. Rios isn't hitting, which probably wasn't expect. Dunn isn't hitting, which probably should have been anticipating considering he was adjusting to a new league and the role of DH. Still, the hitting didn't collapse until it seemed to begin to press after losing a few seemingly safe leads. And suddenly, after winning six of their first nine games, the April 2011 White Sox are a mirror of the April 2010 White Sox.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. An ineffective bullpen can be debilitating to a team in more ways than one. Over the course of 162, you have to be able to win the close ones way more often than blowouts. If the guys in the 'pen can't get it done, it will definitely place more pressure on the offense to put up a "safe" lead. If they press too much, then they are susceptible to performing below their capabilities, probably because they are thinking too much.

It's a perplexing situation because how would you know that the team would perform any better under anybody else? Sometimes it can be easier to stick with the devil you do know rather than the devil you don't know.

I'm giving Ozzie the benefit of the doubt...for now.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2011, 03:49 PM
I agree the single biggest thing that can destroy a club is blowing winnable games late, however that still begs the question, is this team so mentally weak that after two weeks of the regular season they began to check out? (i.e. start pressing, this supposedly "experienced" club)

If that's the case what exactly does that say about them and the G.M. who brought them all in?

If there's more to the issue then you start to look at Ozzie's culpability.

Lip

SBSoxFan
04-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Ozzie ideal for defusing White Sox threats (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110425&content_id=18246712&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws)

sunofgold
04-26-2011, 12:21 AM
Is there another manager who would have gotten more wins with the rosters that Ozzie has had since 2004? Probably not.

He really has been pretty consistent in his style. He likes to run (when he has fast players), he likes to bunt, he likes use left-handed relievers against lefties (and right against right), he likes to use his bench and give them a start here or there.

He gives players/team kudos when they deserve it. He gives players/team criticism when they deserve it. And he will always talk about managers being fired sooner or later.
If Ozzie is removed from manager, isn't Joey Cora the favorite to get the position? I am okay with that. Cora can succeed Guillen and that would be fine. But, not yet. LOL!

soltrain21
04-26-2011, 09:09 AM
Ozzie ideal for defusing White Sox threats (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110425&content_id=18246712&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws)

Man, being a hitting coach has to be the easiest job in the world. You have zero accountability for ANYTHING.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 09:11 AM
Man, being a hitting coach has to be the easiest job in the world. You have zero accountability for ANYTHING.

Being a hitting coach for the White Sox. I would think Greg Walker would have been fired from almost any other organization by now.

asindc
04-26-2011, 09:19 AM
Man, being a hitting coach has to be the easiest job in the world. You have zero accountability for ANYTHING.

Being a hitting coach for the White Sox. I would think Greg Walker would have been fired from almost any other organization by now.

I'm thinking that being a DH with a guaranteed contract is easier from an accountability standpoint. Heck, being any player with a guaranteed contract is easier in that regard.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm thinking that being a DH with a guaranteed contract is easier from an accountability standpoint. Heck, being any player with a guaranteed contract is easier in that regard.

That's because players actually, you know, do something.

asindc
04-26-2011, 09:50 AM
That's because players actually, you know, do something.

You mean like Mark Kotsay or Mark Teahen?

russ99
04-26-2011, 09:58 AM
You mean like Mark Kotsay or Mark Teahen?

When does the statute of limitations run out on this menality?

Kotsay hasn't been a member of this team for 7 months.

asindc
04-26-2011, 10:03 AM
When does the statute of limitations run out on this menality?

Kotsay hasn't been a member of this team for 7 months.

I'm only noting that the hitting coach is no less accountable than a player with a guaranteed contract, as Boston fans know all too well when they watch Dice-K pitch, for instance..

doublem23
04-26-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm only noting that the hitting coach is no less accountable than a player with a guaranteed contract, as Boston fans know all too well when they watch Dice-K pitch, for instance..

You want to go try and win with a bunch of hungry young scrappers who are playing for league minimum, be my guest. The rest of us would prefer to not watch the A's.

russ99
04-26-2011, 10:08 AM
I'm only noting that the hitting coach is no less accountable than a player with a guaranteed contract, as Boston fans know all too well when they watch Dice-K pitch, for instance..

I agree with that. But if Walker wasn't a member of the "Sox family" he'd been shown the door ages ago.

My concern with the staff is if Jerry feels the need to fire Walker (or Cooper) to get the team moving, would Ozzie then walk out, as he was given the decision on coaches when he was hired?

Surely some of you wouldn't mind that, but IMO that would be even more destructive for the team.

Granted, Jerry doesn't seem to work that way and is much more patient than even the most patient fan, and would probably follow convention wisdom and change up the staff after the season, unless there was a non-baseball reason to otherwise do so.

GoSox2K3
04-26-2011, 10:12 AM
Is there another manager who would have gotten more wins with the rosters that Ozzie has had since 2004? Probably not.

He really has been pretty consistent in his style. He likes to run (when he has fast players), he likes to bunt, he likes use left-handed relievers against lefties (and right against right), he likes to use his bench and give them a start here or there.

He gives players/team kudos when they deserve it. He gives players/team criticism when they deserve it. And he will always talk about managers being fired sooner or later.
If Ozzie is removed from manager, isn't Joey Cora the favorite to get the position? I am okay with that. Cora can succeed Guillen and that would be fine. But, not yet. LOL!

I loved what Ozzie did with this team in 2005, but that was 6 years ago now. Since July 2006, this team has had a sub-500 record overall even though we have had a decent amount of talent most of that time (2007 being the exception to this).

It's now 3 years in a row that the Sox have fallen flat on their face to start the season. Players come and go and it's the same underwhelming results.

I prefer to not to keep assuming that anyone else as manager would be worse that Ozzie.

Now, whether the Sox will end up getting someone worse than Ozzie, that's a good question. They would probably go with Cora if he isn't part of any housecleaning and I really don't know how he'd be as a manager.

When does the statute of limitations run out on this menality?

Kotsay hasn't been a member of this team for 7 months.

Yes, let's try to forget Ozzie's genius ideas (Kotsay and Jones for DH) because that'll make the infallible Oz look bad.

.....and I don't care how many times you try to spin it. This WAS his idea. He told KW to say no to Thome and they KNEW it was unlikely that the Sox would land another bona fide DH. Yeah, that's in the past but it's part of Ozzie's mediocre track record since July 2006.

As far as Teahen goes, I don't blame Ozzie for that. I don't have a problem with KW acquiring him. What I do find maddening is KW handing out a nice fat extension to him when he's not all that great. None of that is on Ozzie.

GoSox2K3
04-26-2011, 10:14 AM
I agree with that. But if Walker wasn't a member of the "Sox family" he'd been shown the door ages ago.


The same is true about Ozzie (though maybe not as long ago as Walker).

asindc
04-26-2011, 10:15 AM
You want to go try and win with a bunch of hungry young scrappers who are playing for league minimum, be my guest. The rest of us would prefer to not watch the A's.

I have no idea how you got the idea that I would want that.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 10:20 AM
I have no idea how you got the idea that I would want that.

Because literally 5 posts ago you were ragging on veteran players with guaranteed contracts.

Tragg
04-26-2011, 10:29 AM
Is there another manager who would have gotten more wins with the rosters that Ozzie has had since 2004? Probably not.

He really has been pretty consistent in his style. He likes to run (when he has fast players), he likes to bunt, he likes use left-handed relievers against lefties (and right against right), he likes to use his bench and give them a start here or there.
Probably so. He clowned away 2006.
He would have cost us in 2008, but for Owens' injury. (is there another manager in baseball who would deem Owens a ML ballplayer or Wise a leadoff hitter?).
He forces his strategy - like bunting - when he has a team that it makes no sense to bunt (like this year's).
He's not the worst in the world, but his forced-strategy and his poor talent evaluation (must properly respect him) are unnecessary and harmful.

asindc
04-26-2011, 10:29 AM
Because literally 5 posts ago you were ragging on veteran players with guaranteed contracts.

Below is the dialogue I was responding to, beginning with the first two posts on the subject.

Man, being a hitting coach has to be the easiest job in the world. You have zero accountability for ANYTHING.

Being a hitting coach for the White Sox. I would think Greg Walker would have been fired from almost any other organization by now.

I'm thinking that being a DH with a guaranteed contract is easier from an accountability standpoint. Heck, being any player with a guaranteed contract is easier in that regard.

That's because players actually, you know, do something.

You mean like Mark Kotsay or Mark Teahen?

TheOldRoman
04-26-2011, 10:40 AM
That's because players actually, you know, do something.Yep. And although he makes much less money than players, Walker has been getting paid to do a bad job for nearly 8 years. In terms of players, imagine if the Sox had D'Angelo Jimenez playing 2B every season since 2003.:o:


My concern with the staff is if Jerry feels the need to fire Walker (or Cooper) to get the team moving, would Ozzie then walk out, as he was given the decision on coaches when he was hired?
I don't know. After a horrible slump in Tampa in 2008, Ozzie did his normal "changes need to be made, maybe they should fire me" routine and then added "Maybe we need to change the hitting coach." That was when Walker ran crying to Reinsdorf, resulting in a decree of "Now Ozzie, you be nice to Greg." I felt at the time that Ozzie's rant was him throwing Walker under the bus for the team's failure and asking Kenny to fire him. Kenny wasn't pleased and said "Ozzie has control over his coaching staff. If he wants to fire anybody he can do it himself."

TheOldRoman
04-26-2011, 10:41 AM
Probably so. He clowned away 2006.
He would have cost us in 2008, but for Owens' injury. (is there another manager in baseball who would deem Owens a ML ballplayer or Wise a leadoff hitter?).Still whacking away at the "Quentin was going to be sent to the minors" strawman, are we?

russ99
04-26-2011, 10:57 AM
Probably so. He clowned away 2006.
He would have cost us in 2008, but for Owens' injury. (is there another manager in baseball who would deem Owens a ML ballplayer or Wise a leadoff hitter?).
He forces his strategy - like bunting - when he has a team that it makes no sense to bunt (like this year's).
He's not the worst in the world, but his forced-strategy and his poor talent evaluation (must properly respect him) are unnecessary and harmful.

See, this is the issue. Ozzie is not the one setting up who is on the roster, or making player-personnel choices. Ozzie works with what he has. Yes, he was given the call with Thome, but the GM should have made that decision well before that point.

If you have a problem with Owens as our only leadoff man in 2007 or Wise being on the roster in 2008, blame the GM.

Besides, history has shown that Brian Anderson wasn't a major league quality player, so if you still want to foist him above players like Owens and Wise who were the same quality, go ahead. But stop blaming Ozzie for BA's lack of focus and hitting talent.

khan
04-26-2011, 01:04 PM
See, this is the issue. Ozzie is not the one setting up who is on the roster, or making player-personnel choices. Ozzie works with what he has. Yes, he was given the call with Thome, but the GM should have made that decision well before that point.
I'd say that the Thome decision on Ozzie's part was pretty monumental, wouldn't you?

Due to NOT having Thome, the GM signed the [in OG's words] "tremendous" Mark Kotsay for what, $2M in 2010?

When the [in OG's words] "tremendous" Mark Kotsay [predictably] sucked a horse's ass, the GM supposedly tried to work a 3-way trade for Dunn. Unfortunately, the GM stupidly did not make the trade for the expensive E. Jackson contingent on the subsequent trade for Dunn.

When THAT didn't pan out, the GM had to make a move for the steroid-infested M. Ramirez, and NOW, signing Adam Dunn for big money for many years to come.


So let's do the arithmetic on what OG's stupid affinity for Mark Kotsay cost the team:

Instead of ~$2M/per for Thome for 2010 and 2011, OG has cost the organization:

~$11M to E. Jackson [Don't look now, but he's predictably working on having an inconsistent year],
~$2M to Kotsay,
~$4M to M. Ramirez,
Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg.

The ~$17M or so total would have been nice to re-sign Putz, or extend Danks [you know, the GOOD SP in the rotation] or to solve other problems. Having Hudson and Holmberg could have been used to address other issues as well.


We all know that you'll willfully ignore OG's ****-ups and errors in talent evaluation and tactical errors and square-pegging players and publickly throwing guys under the bus and generally making a childish ass of himself. That's your prerogative, and that's cool.

But, the Thome decision was "left up to Ozzie," and he totally ****ed it up. He aided and abetted the enemy, while hurting this organization for years to come with his stupidity. Like it or not russ, this is the case. No amount of spin-doctoring by Ozz-pologists like yourself can change this.

sunofgold
04-26-2011, 01:08 PM
If you want Guillen out, tell me who would want to manage the White Sox. Imagine you can pick anybody out there who isn't currently managing a major league baseball team.

I think that this has to part of the discussion. If you want to replace Guillen, you need to start naming possible replacements who would do a better job and would be a good fit.

Is there really much out there? Pinella? Just kidding

Joey Cora, Ryne Sandberg (lol!), Sandy Alomar Jr, Omar Vizquel (Player-Manager?),

FielderJones
04-26-2011, 01:19 PM
I think that this has to part of the discussion. If you want to replace Guillen, you need to start naming possible replacements who would do a better job and would be a good fit.

Even more, tell us about this new manager's track record and give us evidence that he would be a better manager than Ozzie. "Sometimes changes must be made" does not constitute evidence.

russ99
04-26-2011, 01:26 PM
I'd say that the Thome decision on Ozzie's part was pretty monumental, wouldn't you?

Due to NOT having Thome, the GM signed the [in OG's words] "tremendous" Mark Kotsay for what, $2M in 2010?

When the [in OG's words] "tremendous" Mark Kotsay [predictably] sucked a horse's ass, the GM supposedly tried to work a 3-way trade for Dunn. Unfortunately, the GM stupidly did not make the trade for the expensive E. Jackson contingent on the subsequent trade for Dunn.

When THAT didn't pan out, the GM had to make a move for the steroid-infested M. Ramirez, and NOW, signing Adam Dunn for big money for many years to come.


So let's do the arithmetic on what OG's stupid affinity for Mark Kotsay cost the team:

Instead of ~$2M/per for Thome for 2010 and 2011, OG has cost the organization:

~$11M to E. Jackson [Don't look now, but he's predictably working on having an inconsistent year],
~$2M to Kotsay,
~$4M to M. Ramirez,
Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg.

The ~$17M or so total would have been nice to re-sign Putz, or extend Danks [you know, the GOOD SP in the rotation] or to solve other problems. Having Hudson and Holmberg could have been used to address other issues as well.


We all know that you'll willfully ignore OG's ****-ups and errors in talent evaluation and tactical errors and square-pegging players and publickly throwing guys under the bus and generally making a childish ass of himself. That's your prerogative, and that's cool.

But, the Thome decision was "left up to Ozzie," and he totally ****ed it up. He aided and abetted the enemy, while hurting this organization for years to come with his stupidity. Like it or not russ, this is the case. No amount of spin-doctoring by Ozz-pologists like yourself can change this.

Ozzie didn't make any of those personnel moves, you proved my point.

Conversely, you can say Kenny is responsible for all that by not signing a bat to either play OF or DH last winter, as I was clamoring for. Also, Kotsay was re-signed in October as a bench player, long before any decision was made on DH.

Even more telling is how Thome can't play full-time anymore for the Twins.

But, please continue to use Ozzie as a scapegoat for anything that may have not gone as planned.

TheOldRoman
04-26-2011, 01:28 PM
When the [in OG's words] "tremendous" Mark Kotsay [predictably] sucked a horse's ass, the GM supposedly tried to work a 3-way trade for Dunn. Unfortunately, the GM stupidly did not make the trade for the expensive E. Jackson contingent on the subsequent trade for Dunn.
The bolded is hearsay. Although a reporter from Washington claimed that, I still maintain it was bull. I think the Sox were trying to trade for Dunn, but Jackson probably wasn't the one being pitched. We only had four starters plus Hudson at the time, and Kenny was going to trade Hudson for a bat? Who the hell would have been our fifth starter, Tony Pena? That story also helps the narrative the media has thrown out many times about Kenny being an incompetant moron. "Duuuhhh, I thought you said you wanted Jackson? Awwwww, shucks. Jerry is gunna be reeeeeeal mad." If he was trying to trade Jackson for Dunn, it would have been a three way.

khan
04-26-2011, 01:32 PM
Ozzie didn't make any of those personnel moves, you proved my point.

But, please continue to use Ozzie as a scapegoat for anything that may have not gone as planned.

Bull. Ozzie HIMSELF said that he wouldn't be able to find any AB for Thome. KW stated that he left the decision on Thome to OG at Soxfest before the 2010 season.

You know this, and cannot spin this in any other way without looking like a fool. [Unless you're on the SOX payroll like Rongey; In that case, defending your paycheck is understandable.]

Again, all the other stuff may or may not be debatable, but the Thome thing is ENTIRELY on your buddy Ozzie. Defending this is beyond stupid.

khan
04-26-2011, 01:37 PM
The bolded is hearsay. Although a reporter from Washington claimed that, I still maintain it was bull. I think the Sox were trying to trade for Dunn, but Jackson probably wasn't the one being pitched. We only had four starters plus Hudson at the time, and Kenny was going to trade Hudson for a bat? Who the hell would have been our fifth starter, Tony Pena? That story also helps the narrative the media has thrown out many times about Kenny being an incompetant moron. "Duuuhhh, I thought you said you wanted Jackson? Awwwww, shucks. Jerry is gunna be reeeeeeal mad." If he was trying to trade Jackson for Dunn, it would have been a three way.

You know, I had made the same point last season, but the "In Kenny We Trust" types shouted me down.

So, for THEIR sake, I decided to roll with it, even though I [like you] doubted it at the time.

Regardless, the whole thing would have been immaterial IF OG could somehow "find AB for Thome," [OG's words, not mine] instead of the "tremendous" [again, OG's words, not mine] Mark Kotsay.

None of this would have happened if Thome were signed, and not Kotsay. [And yes russ, we'll sweep this ****-up in talent evaluation by your buddy OG in due time.]

Nelfox02
04-26-2011, 01:39 PM
The bolded is hearsay. Although a reporter from Washington claimed that, I still maintain it was bull. I think the Sox were trying to trade for Dunn, but Jackson probably wasn't the one being pitched. We only had four starters plus Hudson at the time, and Kenny was going to trade Hudson for a bat? Who the hell would have been our fifth starter, Tony Pena? That story also helps the narrative the media has thrown out many times about Kenny being an incompetant moron. "Duuuhhh, I thought you said you wanted Jackson? Awwwww, shucks. Jerry is gunna be reeeeeeal mad." If he was trying to trade Jackson for Dunn, it would have been a three way.


always felt this way too regarding Jackson trade----Kenny has made some moves that turned out poorly, sure. But he was no rookie GM last year, he knows how to play the game.....I just cant see that he was totally duped by the Nationals and got stuck holding Jackson in three way deal that never was......and I ve never seen or heard anything credible to convince me otherwise

SI1020
04-26-2011, 01:41 PM
Even more, tell us about this new manager's track record and give us evidence that he would be a better manager than Ozzie. "Sometimes changes must be made" does not constitute evidence. At some point everybody had very little or no track record in their career. Just because John McGraw, Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel aren't available doesn't mean Ozzie or any other manager for that matter is not replaceable.

asindc
04-26-2011, 01:43 PM
At some point everybody had very little or no track record in their career. Just because John McGraw, Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel aren't available doesn't mean Ozzie or any other manager for that matter is not replaceable.

That's not his point. He is just asking for names of potential replacements.

FielderJones
04-26-2011, 01:53 PM
At some point everybody had very little or no track record in their career. Just because John McGraw, Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel aren't available doesn't mean Ozzie or any other manager for that matter is not replaceable.

I didn't say Ozzie is irreplaceable. I want to know names of potential managers that are going to be a positive step forward. Bringing in a new guy who finishes in second place every year for the sake of bringing in a new guy seems pointless.

Two of Ozzie's seven teams have won a division. Give me the name of someone who will win the division half the time, and why.

SI1020
04-26-2011, 01:54 PM
That's not his point. He is just asking for names of potential replacements.

Even more, tell us about this new manager's track record and give us evidence that he would be a better manager than Ozzie. "Sometimes changes must be made" does not constitute evidence. My point stands. If it's a lousy one then so be it. There is always someone out there that can do your job, my job or Ozzie's job as good or better than it's being done now. Of course whenever a change is made there are no guarantees that things will work out for the better.

kufram
04-26-2011, 01:56 PM
Man, being a hitting coach has to be the easiest job in the world. You have zero accountability for ANYTHING.


Of course he is accountable. He's accountable to his boss and to his employer. So far they back him. Some fans don't like it but that is life in the big leagues.

FielderJones
04-26-2011, 01:59 PM
My point stands. If it's a lousy one then so be it. There is always someone out there that can do your job, my job or Ozzie's job as good or better than it's being done now. Of course whenever a change is made there are no guarantees that things will work out for the better.

And my point stands. Making change for its own sake is pointless. Make changes to improve, not to run in circles.

SI1020
04-26-2011, 02:05 PM
And my point stands. Making change for its own sake is pointless. Make changes to improve, not to run in circles. Of course making a change for its own sake is not the greatest idea. I happen to think there are plenty of really good reasons to make lots of changes where the Sox are concerned, and of course if you do that there are no guarantees. Doing the same things that have the team spinning its wheels the last 5 years or so doesn't seem to me at least, to be a good idea either.

captain54
04-26-2011, 02:13 PM
Just because John McGraw, Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel aren't available doesn't mean Ozzie or any other manager for that matter is not replaceable.

According to Rongey and others on this board, the manager doesn't go out and underperform on the field on a day to day basis. So changing managers is not gonna improve the performance of the team. So according to this logic, you could put Casey Stengel or Joe the Beer Vendor at the helm and it wouldn't matter.

Gavin
04-26-2011, 02:16 PM
According to Rongey and others on this board, the manager doesn't go out and underperform on the field on a day to day basis. So changing managers is not gonna improve the performance of the team. So according to this logic, you could put Casey Stengel or Joe the Beer Vendor at the helm and it wouldn't matter.

Why have a manager at all? Oh, right, someone's gotta say confrontational/antagaonistic bull**** to the media on a regular basis.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 02:16 PM
According to Rongey and others on this board, the manager doesn't go out and underperform on the field on a day to day basis. So changing managers is not gonna improve the performance of the team. So according to this logic, you could put Casey Stengel or Joe the Beer Vendor at the helm and it wouldn't matter.

Bingo. When the Sox are rolling, it's because Ozzie is a fiery, player's manager that gets the most of his team. The rest of the time (which, by the way, is becoming the majority of their time), it's the players just underperforming and not giving Ozzie anything to work with.

I'm sorry, that's bull****. If Ozzie gets credit for the Sox winning, then he takes blame for them sucking. Or, if he's guiltless when they lose, then he doesn't deserve a hint of praise when they win. I don't care which one you chose, but at least stay logically consistent in your argument.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 02:17 PM
Why have a manager at all? Oh, right, someone's gotta say confrontational/antagaonistic bull**** to the media on a regular basis.

We also need his spoiled brat sons to hit their Twitter account again.

sunofgold
04-26-2011, 02:20 PM
I will throw out another name. KW becomes manager and you find another GM. How do you think KW would perform as a manager of this club?

Gavin
04-26-2011, 02:23 PM
I will throw out another name. KW becomes manager and you find another GM. How do you think KW would perform as a manager of this club?

Poorly. Say, what's Mark Grace doing these days?

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2011, 02:24 PM
I will throw out another name. KW becomes manager and you find another GM. How do you think KW would perform as a manager of this club?Don't know. He has no track record in that regard.

Rocky Soprano
04-26-2011, 02:47 PM
Bingo. When the Sox are rolling, it's because Ozzie is a fiery, player's manager that gets the most of his team. The rest of the time (which, by the way, is becoming the majority of their time), it's the players just underperforming and not giving Ozzie anything to work with.

I'm sorry, that's bull****. If Ozzie gets credit for the Sox winning, then he takes blame for them sucking. Or, if he's guiltless when they lose, then he doesn't deserve a hint of praise when they win. I don't care which one you chose, but at least stay logically consistent in your argument.


:gulp:

Exactly how I feel.

TheOldRoman
04-26-2011, 03:10 PM
You know, I had made the same point last season, but the "In Kenny We Trust" types shouted me down.

So, for THEIR sake, I decided to roll with it, even though I [like you] doubted it at the time.

Regardless, the whole thing would have been immaterial IF OG could somehow "find AB for Thome," [OG's words, not mine] instead of the "tremendous" [again, OG's words, not mine] Mark Kotsay.

None of this would have happened if Thome were signed, and not Kotsay. [And yes russ, we'll sweep this ****-up in talent evaluation by your buddy OG in due time.]I don't remember the posts you are addressing, but I can't imagine why fans of KW would argue he actually did get fooled. Anyway, although I am a fan of KW, I thought that changes needed to be made after another failure last season. I said whether it was Ozzie or Kenny (preferably Ozzie) someone's head needed to roll. I don't blame Ozzie for Thome not being here or any of the other things you tied to that move simply because he is not the GM. Kenny should have put together the best team he could on paper. Kenny even admitted at the time he wasn't pleased with the DH platoon, so he should have done something about it. Hell, even if he cut Kotsay in the middle of the season, Ozzie would be ticked, but they were already fighting anyway. Give the manager the best team you can. If he won't play the best players, cut the worse ones. If he loses by doing it his way, fire the manager.

captain54
04-26-2011, 03:44 PM
Give the manager the best team you can.

I think its important to remember that the GM or the field manager are not deliberately going out and trying to mess things up, in their way, they are trying to be successful. The question really is, are they or aren't they really capable given the circumstances and factors which determine their decisions?

The thing that always comes back to me is the fact that for 5 yrs, and now for a 6th yr possibly, (with the exception 08', and just barely), the Sox are perennial Twins chasers. Six years should be enough time to figure it out. How many employed people in this universe get 6yrs to correct a glaring weakness, of which they are responsible?

Not only that, the Twins are a smaller market team with less financial resources. So while KW and the organization as a whole are trying to put together a winner, and a perennial playoff team (like Braves, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals) maybe the current mix of minds in the Ivory Tower at 35th and Shields is just not capable.

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 03:55 PM
For those defending Oz, what's your criteria for holding a manager responsible for a team's failure?
Steinbrenner issued an utimatum to Torre in 2007, win the ALDS or don't come back. Steinbrenner held the manager responsible not his players.
Playing in a weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil shouldn't Oz be expected to win the division or at least make the play-offs?

khan
04-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Anyway, although I am a fan of KW, I thought that changes needed to be made after another failure last season. I said whether it was Ozzie or Kenny (preferably Ozzie) someone's head needed to roll. I don't blame Ozzie for Thome not being here or any of the other things you tied to that move simply because he is not the GM.
If you believe that Ozzie had little or NO input as to the composition of the roster, you're kidding yourself. He had a LOT of pull, and a LOT of JR's ear. [At least until this season, where JR seems to have taken KW's side in terms of player personnel decisions.]

Kenny should have put together the best team he could on paper. Kenny even admitted at the time he wasn't pleased with the DH platoon, so he should have done something about it. Hell, even if he cut Kotsay in the middle of the season, Ozzie would be ticked, but they were already fighting anyway. Give the manager the best team you can. If he won't play the best players, cut the worse ones. If he loses by doing it his way, fire the manager.
I can agree with much of this. Again, OG had a lot of sway in terms of the personnel; KW was indeed foolish to allow an inferior judge of talent in OG to have any say at all, IMO.

I would also remind both KW & OG that there are unforeseen consequences to every move or non-move. As such, SOMEONE had to be the "big boy" and look beyond the obvious. [Although, to anyone with a 3-digit IQ, it was OBVIOUS that kotsay sucks at hitting/adds next-to-nothing with a glove, while a ~$2-3M Thome still crushes and punishes RHP.]

captain54
04-26-2011, 04:09 PM
Playing in a weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil shouldn't Oz be expected to win the division or at least make the play-offs?

No, because I'm beginning to really be convinced there are no real consequences in this organization...at all.. The Sox start the year with the worst or close to the worst in MLB...the result? the GM holds a press conference and gives everyone a vote of confidence. Multimillion dollar players underperform? They just get shuffled to another part of the order or the bullpen and still collect a paycheck.

Ozzie gets canned? Gets another job with another MLB team. KW gets deposed as the GM? Gets shuffled to another slot in the organization. Players underperform? unless its a contract year approaching, who gives a crap?

Makes me long for the unlikely scenario of backing up the truck and cleaning house from top to bottom, with some unproven commodities who are trying to prove themselves and fight for the right to be employed. The results might not be there, but it sure would be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-26-2011, 04:10 PM
For those defending Oz, what's your criteria for holding a manager responsible for a team's failure?
Steinbrenner issued an utimatum to Torre in 2007, win the ALDS or don't come back. Steinbrenner held the manager responsible not his players.
Playing in a weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil shouldn't Oz be expected to win the division or at least make the play-offs?

Agreed with The Boss and yes I do/did expect the White Sox to win. Believe it or nor the manager and FO has a bigger impact than you might think also bad leadership vs. good leadership. I liked O-Cad/Swisher and laugh that the last time we made the playoffs was when we had the on the team.

FielderJones
04-26-2011, 04:24 PM
Steinbrenner issued an utimatum to Torre in 2007, win the ALDS or don't come back. Steinbrenner held the manager responsible not his players.

Give Kenny an NYY payroll and I'll agree with you.

doublem23
04-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Give Kenny an NYY payroll and I'll agree with you.

Yeah, but Paul only brought the Sox to the division and considering our resources and the payroll compared to the rest of the Central, it's basically inexcusable that the Sox aren't even competitive in the division 1/2 the time.

kobo
04-26-2011, 04:30 PM
If you believe that Ozzie had little or NO input as to the composition of the roster, you're kidding yourself. He had a LOT of pull, and a LOT of JR's ear. [At least until this season, where JR seems to have taken KW's side in terms of player personnel decisions.]


I can agree with much of this. Again, OG had a lot of sway in terms of the personnel; KW was indeed foolish to allow an inferior judge of talent in OG to have any say at all, IMO.

I would also remind both KW & OG that there are unforeseen consequences to every move or non-move. As such, SOMEONE had to be the "big boy" and look beyond the obvious. [Although, to anyone with a 3-digit IQ, it was OBVIOUS that kotsay sucks at hitting/adds next-to-nothing with a glove, while a ~$2-3M Thome still crushes and punishes RHP.]
I don't know how you can say Ozzie had a lot of pull and a lot of JR's ear when the only example we have is his stance on Thome. What other player personnel decisions has Ozzie made that went against KW? Does Ozzie call the shots in the offseason? I'm just trying to find out how you know Ozzie had so much say in regards to player personnel decisions when there is only 1 example out there.

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 04:32 PM
Give Kenny an NYY payroll and I'll agree with you.


How bad does the situation have to become for you to blame Oz, or doesn't he ever get the blame?

kobo
04-26-2011, 04:34 PM
the GM holds a press conference and gives everyone a vote of confidence. Multimillion dollar players underperform? They just get shuffled to another part of the order or the bullpen and still collect a paycheck.

What is he supposed to do? Fire coaches and the manager barely 4 weeks into the season? Release players and lose out on money by doing so because they are underperforming? Who do those players get replaced by then? There is basically nothing in the minors to replace anyone so how would KW then replace players one month into the season?

I'm as frustrated as anyone about the state of the Sox, but some of you are off your rockers.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2011, 04:35 PM
Steinbrenner issued an utimatum to Torre in 2007, win the ALDS or don't come back. Steinbrenner held the manager responsible not his players.Steinbrenner was an idiot who was able to get away with the crap he did because of the revenue the team has to work with. When he kept firing and re-hiring Billy Martin, did Martin go back and forth between being a good manager and being a bad manager?

Give Kenny an NYY payroll and I'll agree with you.Exactly.

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 04:39 PM
Steinbrenner was an idiot who was able to get away with the crap he did because of the revenue the team has to work with. When he kept firing and re-hiring Billy Martin, did Martin go back and forth between being a good manager and being a bad manager?

Exactly.

Sure Steinbrenner was an idiot, but it was win or else. He had quite a few WS rings with his insanity.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2011, 04:41 PM
Sure Steinbrenner was an idiot, but it was win or else. He had quite a few WS rings with his insanity.Because of MONEY, not because of smart management. The Yankees improved during the time he was suspended.

FielderJones
04-26-2011, 04:42 PM
How bad does the situation have to become for you to blame Oz, or doesn't he ever get the blame?

Losing seasons three years in a row.

I think the number of losses this year due to poor player execution far outnumber the number of losses due to managerial blunders. Nellie makes a good point. Did Ozzie go back and forth from being a good manager and a bad manager between 2005 and 2007 and 2008?

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Because of MONEY, not because of smart management. The Yankees improved during the time he was suspended.


With a team in the very weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil this team should win the div. I'm not demanding they win the WS.

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 04:46 PM
Losing seasons three years in a row.

I think the number of losses this year due to poor player execution far outnumber the number of losses due to managerial blunders. Nellie makes a good point. Did Ozzie go back and forth from being a good manager and a bad manager between 2005 and 2007 and 2008?


I personally don't think Oz was ever a good manager. I feel everything fell into place in 2005.

Gavin
04-26-2011, 04:46 PM
With a team in the very weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil this team should win the div. I'm not demanding they win the WS.

I think people would prefer to attack George Steinbrenner than argue this exact point.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2011, 04:47 PM
With a team in the very weak central div and a payroll of ~ $125 mil this team should win the div. I'm not demanding they win the WS.That's not the point. The point is that Steinbrenner doing something is not evidence that it's a smart thing to do; his payroll let him get away with a lot of crap that would not fly elsewhere.

Nellie_Fox
04-26-2011, 04:48 PM
I think people would prefer to attack George Steinbrenner than argue this exact point.If you bring up Steinbrenner to support your point, then attacking Steinbrenner is certainly fair game. The Yankees payroll is double the Sox.

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 04:52 PM
If you bring up Steinbrenner to support your point, then attacking Steinbrenner is certainly fair game. The Yankees payroll is double the Sox.

When do you blame Oz or does he get a free ride? Every year this team lacks fundamentals that were to be addressed every spring.

Gavin
04-26-2011, 04:55 PM
Because of MONEY, not because of smart management. The Yankees improved during the time he was suspended.

So if the Yankees win because of money, why don't the White Sox?

captain54
04-26-2011, 04:56 PM
There is basically nothing in the minors to replace anyone so how would KW then replace players one month into the season?

I'm as frustrated as anyone about the state of the Sox, but some of you are off your rockers.

I'm sorry, I don't buy into the "hey guys, you guys are great! everything's fine! don't worry! everythings gonna be all right!" approach..

I never said that everyone and everything should be replaced one month into the season, but after the team being in a hole with another miserable April record, and AGAIN being forced to play catchup to not only the Twins, but the rest of the entire division, I don't know what its gonna take for some of you folks to see that some really drastic measures have to be taken, somewhere, somehow.

asindc
04-26-2011, 05:01 PM
I personally don't think Oz was ever a good manager. I feel everything fell into place in 2005.

As I noted earlier in this thread, if either/both Ozzie and KW are replaced after a disappointing season, I won't complain. But the bolded phrase above is simply not true. Here is what did not fall into place:

1) We did not finish the season with our 1st closer;

2) We did not finish the season with our 2nd closer;

3) We did not have our 5th starter for most of the year;

4) Our starting 3B missed significant time;

5) We did not have our starting DH for most of the season, including the playoffs; and

6) Our starting LF and leadoff hitter missed significant time.

Every team goes through trials and tribulations, true, but this list indicates that the 2005 Sox did not have everything "fall into place."

Paulwny
04-26-2011, 05:06 PM
As I noted earlier in this thread, if either/both Ozzie and KW are replaced after a disappointing season, I won't complain. But the bolded phrase above is simply not true. Here is what did not fall into place:

1) We did not finish the season with our 1st closer;

2) We did not finish the season with our 2nd closer;

3) We did not have our 5th starter for most of the year;

4) Our starting 3B missed significant time;

5) We did not have our starting DH for most of the season, including the playoffs; and

6) Our starting LF and leadoff hitter missed significant time.

Every team goes through trials and tribulations, true, but this list indicates that the 2005 Sox did not have everything "fall into place."


Great points, from now on I'll say "lucky" instead of " fell into place".

asindc
04-26-2011, 05:21 PM
Great points, from now on I'll say "lucky" instead of " fell into place".

Well, if you want to consider it lucky, that is your perogative. Personally, I don't consider a team that goes wire-to-wire in the AL with all those things going wrong, then going 11-1 in the postseason, followed up with a season of 90 wins with one of the starters posting the worst ERA in the majors for the second half and another also falling apart in the last 4 months of the season, "lucky."

asindc
04-26-2011, 05:27 PM
I'm sorry, I don't buy into the "hey guys, you guys are great! everything's fine! don't worry! everythings gonna be all right!" approach..

I never said that everyone and everything should be replaced one month into the season, but after the team being in a hole with another miserable April record, and AGAIN being forced to play catchup to not only the Twins, but the rest of the entire division, I don't know what its gonna take for some of you folks to see that some really drastic measures have to be taken, somewhere, somehow.

Speaking for myself, I don't like the recurring trends of starting slow and finishing weak, either, but I certainly don't want change for change's sake. The change must be made to address the weaknesses and not to simply me make feel better. I've seen too many instances in which organizations made changes for the sake of doing so and it actually set them back (and I don't mean in a planned, short-term pain sort of way) years. Replacing Lamont with Bevington is one example. As I've noted in this thread twice already and a few others times elsewhere, if KW and/or Ozzie are replaced with someone better, so be it. All to the better. But the easy part is the firing. The hiring is where this discussion should be focused, in my opinion.

SI1020
04-26-2011, 06:13 PM
Don't know. He has no track record in that regard. Well played sir.

captain54
04-26-2011, 06:18 PM
I've seen too many instances in which organizations made changes for the sake of doing so and it actually set them back (and I don't mean in a planned, short-term pain sort of way) years. .

The Sox are in last place with the worst or close to the worst record in MLB, with no real concrete evidence, based on past years, that things are going to drastically improve and we'll be, when all is said and done, one of the 2 or 3 elite teams in baseball.

How much worse can it really get at this point?

SI1020
04-26-2011, 06:20 PM
I personally don't think Oz was ever a good manager. I feel everything fell into place in 2005. I so much agree with this.

SI1020
04-26-2011, 06:30 PM
As I noted earlier in this thread, if either/both Ozzie and KW are replaced after a disappointing season, I won't complain. But the bolded phrase above is simply not true. Here is what did not fall into place:

1) We did not finish the season with our 1st closer;

2) We did not finish the season with our 2nd closer;

3) We did not have our 5th starter for most of the year;

4) Our starting 3B missed significant time;

5) We did not have our starting DH for most of the season, including the playoffs; and

6) Our starting LF and leadoff hitter missed significant time.

Every team goes through trials and tribulations, true, but this list indicates that the 2005 Sox did not have everything "fall into place." Good points. I liked paul's original comment because I never have considered Ozzie to be a good in game manager. Many factors in 05 made it much easier on Ozzie to go on cruise control. Like Podsednik and Iguchi being the closest thing to Aparacio and Fox in my lifetime, and an absolute lockdown bullpen despite some problems you mention. That team definitely played to Ozzie's strengths. Maybe he'll manage a team like that again some day. I doubt it will be on the south side of Chicago.

captain54
04-26-2011, 06:51 PM
As I noted earlier in this thread, if either/both Ozzie and KW are replaced after a disappointing season, I won't complain. But the bolded phrase above is simply not true. Here is what did not fall into place:

1) We did not finish the season with our 1st closer;

2) We did not finish the season with our 2nd closer;

3) We did not have our 5th starter for most of the year;

4) Our starting 3B missed significant time;

5) We did not have our starting DH for most of the season, including the playoffs; and

6) Our starting LF and leadoff hitter missed significant time.

Every team goes through trials and tribulations, true, but this list indicates that the 2005 Sox did not have everything "fall into place."

You chose to leave out a few main critical factors that absolutely proved that things fell totally into place for the Sox in 05'

1) lights out career years from two relievers (Politte and Cotts) that were never again duplicated
2) a completely banged up Cleveland Indian team early in the season, that the Sox beat up on, allowing them to jump way ahead of the pack
3) career years from 4 starters simultaneously, allowing them to win 99 games without anyone batting over .290, leading to being 11th out of 14th in the league in offense

asindc
04-26-2011, 07:08 PM
You chose to leave out a few main critical factors that absolutely proved that things fell totally into place for the Sox in 05'

1) lights out career years from two relievers (Politte and Cotts) that were never again duplicated
2) a completely banged up Cleveland Indian team early in the season, that the Sox beat up on, allowing them to jump way ahead of the pack
3) career years from 4 starters simultaneously, allowing them to win 99 games without anyone batting over .290, leading to being 11th out of 14th in the league in offense

Totally?

Nellie_Fox
04-27-2011, 01:11 AM
When do you blame Oz or does he get a free ride? Every year this team lacks fundamentals that were to be addressed every spring.What does that have to do with my post? I said not a damn thing about Ozzie. I was addressing the contention that Steinbrenner threatening to fire Torre was the reason the Yankees went on to win the division. All I said was Steinbrenner was an idiot, and his teams won because of MONEY, not Steinbrenner's genius. And seriously, does anyone really think it was the threat of firing that somehow turned Torre into a better manager? Do you think he wasn't going to try very hard until then? Come on.

So if the Yankees win because of money, why don't the White Sox?Did you miss the part about the Yankees having twice the Sox payroll? TWICE??? TWICE???

Gavin
04-27-2011, 08:07 AM
What does that have to do with my post? I said not a damn thing about Ozzie. I was addressing the contention that Steinbrenner threatening to fire Torre was the reason the Yankees went on to win the division. All I said was Steinbrenner was an idiot, and his teams won because of MONEY, not Steinbrenner's genius. And seriously, does anyone really think it was the threat of firing that somehow turned Torre into a better manager? Do you think he wasn't going to try very hard until then? Come on.

Did you miss the part about the Yankees having twice the Sox payroll? TWICE??? TWICE???

And the White Sox have a payroll that is THREE TIMES the size of that of the Tribe and the Royals. The Yankees payroll should little affect an AL Central team from winning the AL Central.

asindc
04-27-2011, 08:31 AM
And the White Sox have a payroll that is THREE TIMES the size of that of the Tribe and the Royals. The Yankees payroll should little affect an AL Central team from winning the AL Central.

And vice versa, Steinbrenner threatening to fire his manager should have little effect on how the Sox management runs their organization.

Gavin
04-27-2011, 10:47 AM
And vice versa, Steinbrenner threatening to fire his manager should have little effect on how the Sox management runs their organization.

I guess the argument I'm going for is.. a team with a $129m budget shouldn't behind two teams with budgets of $48m and $35m. If the Yankees can dominate because of their budget dominance (which is pretty much the conventional wisdom), so can the Sox.

tony1972
04-27-2011, 11:22 AM
Which statement best describes your position on whether or not Ozzie Guillen should be on the hot seat? Granted, it may be too early to have a discussion like this. However, given how things have been going, it is an issue that will not go away as long as we keep losing.

I moved back into Ozzie's corner when he had Santos (and not Thornton) pitch the 9th in Monday and Tuesday's wins...

shows he puts the team first and not individual players...

asindc
04-27-2011, 11:24 AM
I guess the argument I'm going for is.. a team with a $129m budget shouldn't behind two teams with budgets of $48m and $35m. If the Yankees can dominate because of their budget dominance (which is pretty much the conventional wisdom), so can the Sox.

You really don't expect that to last the entire season, do you?

Gavin
04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
You really don't expect that to last the entire season, do you?

I certainly hope it doesn't, but that's how it stands right now, isn't it?

Paulwny
04-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Last night top of the 9th, Logan in for the yanks, Teahan at the plate, I thought to myself, I guess Oz isn't putting Vizquel, a much better fielder, at 3rd in the bottom of the 9th.
Bottom of the 9th and Vizquel is at 3rd. Why the hell didn't he use Vizquel to face Logan a lefty in the top of the 9th instead of Teahan?

doublem23
04-27-2011, 02:24 PM
Last night top of the 9th, Logan in for the yanks, Teahan at the plate, I thought to myself, I guess Oz isn't putting Vizquel, a much better fielder, at 3rd in the bottom of the 9th.
Bottom of the 9th and Vizquel is at 3rd. Why the hell didn't he use Vizquel to face Logan a lefty in the top of the 9th instead of Teahan?

Teahen v. Vizquel at the plate, who cares? Both suck.

kittle42
04-27-2011, 03:04 PM
Teahen v. Vizquel at the plate, who cares? Both suck.

Also, their career numbers v. lefties, even with Vizquel hitting RH as a switch hitter, are not far off. Teahen's OPS is 50 points higher than Omar's, in fact.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2011, 11:16 PM
Earlier in this thread I said along the lines of, that I'd have to wait to see how the season plays out before making up my mind on Ozzie.

Circumstances have altered that timeline.

I felt sure that even though the weather still isn't great and the crowds were going to be poor the fact that the Sox were playing at home would almost force them to play better regardless of their mental state.

The past two days have shown just the opposite.

These were two of the worst played games that I can remember and this is my 51st year of following the team.

It may be somewhat unfair to Ozzie but in my mind now he needs to go, the sooner the better.

I simply can't believe that ALL the players the Sox get are "baseball stupid." There's been to many guys come through the doors since the end of the 2006 season.

Yet seemingly ALL of them can't do anything even resembling executing fundamentals the way they need to be done at the big league level.

Couple that with slow / mediocre / terrible starts (choose the word that suits you best) EVERY year since 2007, the atrocious early hitting and the sense that as soon as anything starts to go south the club mentally falls apart...there is simply something fundamentally being done wrong by Ozzie and his staff. And it starts in my mind in spring training. That doesn't absolve the players of their share of responsibility in all this but again, EVERY player the Sox get simply can't be this bad.

Finally factor in the 'off the field' escapades by Ozzie and his family and I've had enough.

Ozzie needs to go and many if not all of his coaches as well. Hiring from inside the "family" is fine and there is much to be said about loyalty however when EVERY main person on the field staff has a deep Sox connection, that's not healthy.

You simply can't get an unbiased, non patronage opinion with that type of set up.

Fresh eyes are needed and fresh ideas.

Ozzie, Coop, Walker, Baines, Cora will all be remembered and appreciated for everything they have done as players, coaches and managing the franchise to a World Championship in 2005, but the grace period doesn't last forever.

Things are spiraling out of control and something needs to change before literally the franchise is put in such a position that things could be horrific for the next few years.

They have got to start winning, they have got to start drawing fans, the players have got to look like they at least care and simply have had enough of this embarrassment.

That begins with a change of the field manager and at least some of his staff.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Noneck
04-30-2011, 11:25 PM
Lip,

Shouldnt a field manager have the right to bring in his own staff? The only way the whole staff shouldnt go is if the field manager is currently part of the organization. Maybe this is different if a change happens at this stage of season.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2011, 11:31 PM
Noneck:

I agree he should but if something were to happen and the Sox brought in an "outsider" it could be difficult to round up a staff on such short notice who knows what they are doing.

If the Sox were to make a change I seriously doubt it would be an "outsider" until the off-season (if then) so say it was Cora named as the replacement he'd probably keep most (not all) of the current coaches.

It's more a logistical issue at this point of the season.

Lip

cards press box
04-30-2011, 11:32 PM
I felt sure that even though the weather still isn't great and the crowds were going to be poor the fact that the Sox were playing at home would almost force them to play better regardless of their mental state.

The past two days have shown just the opposite.

These were two of the worst played games that I can remember and this is my 51st year of following the team.

Lip

Lip, I was at the game Friday night. I've been going to games for over 40 years and I agree -- it was one of the worst games that I have ever seen, too. For what it is worth, the two worst games that I have seen in person were: (1) the Sox 9-1 loss to the Yankees on 8/1/79 and the Sox 16-0 loss to the Tigers at the home opener of the current Sox park. Two things about that 9-1 Sox loss to New York. First, the Sox fired manager Don Kessinger after that game and gave Tony LaRussa his first job as a manager. Second, and sadly, on 8/2/79, Thurman Munson died in a plane crash in Ohio.

Anyway, the current Sox have lost 14 of 17. I didn't see this coming and I don't suspect that anyone else did, either. I have no idea what they should do. Maybe they should use a trick that former Yankee manager Billy Martin used to employ to shake up a team in the doldrums, particularly offensively -- write the names of the starting lineup on nine slips of paper, put the paper in a hat and pull the starting lineup out of a hat. Martin's Tiger and Yankee teams actually responded well when he did that.

pmck003
05-01-2011, 03:35 AM
Fire the mod edit (please spell out the word and let the filter do the rest)! managers job is to keep a good atmosphere