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LoveYourSuit
04-20-2011, 08:52 PM
Is it too late in his career to send him down to the minors to get his act together and maybe perhaps save his career?

For a medicore power hitter, he is on pace for 100+ strikeouts and last year he had 90+.

He is not going to learn anything up here from Walker or Guillen, so saying to just drop him in the order isn't going to help. It didn't help for most of last year either.

I think too much was handed to this kide earl and quite honestly he has completely fallen on his face.

A demotion as a wake up call might be what he needs.

LITTLE NELL
04-20-2011, 08:55 PM
#2 hitters do not strike out 100+ times a year, time for someone else to bat second.

Dirty30
04-20-2011, 08:57 PM
#2 hitters do not strike out 100+ times a year, time for someone else to bat second.

Give it two months, Ozzie will finally realize that.

LITTLE NELL
04-20-2011, 08:58 PM
Give it two months, Ozzie will finally realize that.

I hope Ozzie is gone before the 2 months are up.

JB98
04-20-2011, 09:03 PM
I said in the gamethread that a player has to make his own way, but in fairness, several things have been working against Beckham since he joined this organization.

He was anointed savior and future face of the franchise before he had accomplished anything at the big-league level, which was completely unfair to him. He was rushed to the MLB level to fill a need because the Sox GM miscalculated and thought clowns like Fields and Betemit could fill a hole at 3B. He was then asked to change positions twice in two years.

His teammates are mostly veterans, and those veterans are too busy being head cases to help him out. In addition, the hitting coach here is worthless, as far as I can tell.

Gordon has a manager who is trying to force him to be a No. 2 hole hitter, despite the fact he clearly belongs somewhere else in the batting order. They should be trying to develop this kid into a run producer. Instead, they want him to put bunts down and hit behind runners and such. You would like to think a No. 1 draft pick would be worth something more to them. I guess not.

Ultimately, the player decides his own fate, but you can't help but wonder if Beckham would have been better off being drafted by some other organization. It's not working out too well for him so far here. I sure hope it turns around, but the environment around the Sox makes it pretty hard for a young player.

thomas35forever
04-20-2011, 09:08 PM
Yeah, we could send him down, but at what cost? No one on the bench or in the minors would be able to fill the hole at second in the interim. If the ship is going to be righted, we'll have to do it with Beckham, which means he'll have to break out of his funk along with everyone else. The thought of Vizquel or Lillibridge as an everyday second baseman is enough to make you not want to watch the game.

Noneck
04-20-2011, 09:10 PM
From the 1st time I ever saw Beckham, I wondered about the hitched swing he has. I read and listened to experts keep saying this guy is a cant miss so I thought to myself, I'm wrong again. Now I am thinking again, maybe they are wrong this time.

dickallen15
04-20-2011, 09:13 PM
A little over a week ago Beckham was hitting .333 with an OPS over .900. Now he's a bust. Wow. Just wow, fits perfectly here.

The Sox have been awful lately and are 7-11. If they were 10-8 or 11-7 people would be fine, but on April 20 3 or 4 games off that pace in a division where they have to gain a little ground on Cleveland and KC, and so many people are acting like the Sox won't win 40 games this year. Get real people. Bad streaks happen. They will get out of the funk.

soltrain21
04-20-2011, 09:15 PM
A little over a week ago Beckham was hitting .333 with an OPS over .900. Now he's a bust. Wow. Just wow, fits perfectly here.

The Sox have been awful lately and are 7-11. If they were 10-8 or 11-7 people would be fine, but on April 20 3 or 4 games off that pace in a division where they have to gain a little ground on Cleveland and KC, and so many people are acting like the Sox won't win 40 games this year. Get real people. Bad streaks happen. They will get out of the funk.

And do what? Miss the playoffs again?

sox1970
04-20-2011, 09:16 PM
A couple weeks ago he said last year's struggles will help him through future struggles and get himself out of it faster. I'd give a couple weeks in the 8-hole, and if he doesn't come around, you got to send him down.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 09:20 PM
Dick:

They will get out of the funk... if history is any indication they'll get red hot for a period of time. Then have nothing left in the tank come August - September.

You can't win a pennent in April but you can sure as hell lose one with a bad start. And the Sox are making a habit of garbage starts.

-----------------------

JB:

Spot on analysis especially the part about the 'head case' vetrans (or as I've often said the mentally weak, leaderless veterans...")

Lip

TheOldRoman
04-20-2011, 09:20 PM
A little over a week ago Beckham was hitting .333 with an OPS over .900. Now he's a bust. Wow. Just wow, fits perfectly here.

The Sox have been awful lately and are 7-11. If they were 10-8 or 11-7 people would be fine, but on April 20 3 or 4 games off that pace in a division where they have to gain a little ground on Cleveland and KC, and so many people are acting like the Sox won't win 40 games this year. Get real people. Bad streaks happen. They will get out of the funk.LoveYourSuit is on record of irrationally hating Beckham. He called him a bust all last season, even while putting up a line of .310/.380 in the second half, and clamored for the Sox to trade for the .262 hitting, 150 strikeout, atrocious defense having Dan Uggla this offseason. I disagree with you on the extent to which the Sox will be fine this year, but LYS ripping Beckham is just another case of "nothing to see here."

LoveYourSuit
04-20-2011, 09:20 PM
A little over a week ago Beckham was hitting .333 with an OPS over .900. Now he's a bust. Wow. Just wow, fits perfectly here.

The Sox have been awful lately and are 7-11. If they were 10-8 or 11-7 people would be fine, but on April 20 3 or 4 games off that pace in a division where they have to gain a little ground on Cleveland and KC, and so many people are acting like the Sox won't win 40 games this year. Get real people. Bad streaks happen. They will get out of the funk.


The concern has more to do with his entire body of work which includes a miserable 2010 and faded finish to 2009.

I think we can agree that this is more than just a slump.

Sending the guy down to get his act together is not putting the label of a "Bust" on him.

It's a move I would consider to try to save this guy's career and get him away from this team which is a complete cancer.

A coaching staff that doesn't coach and teammates who are complete mental midgets.

sox68
04-20-2011, 09:22 PM
Beckham is a servicable player, think Scott Fletcher...nothing more, nothing less.

sox1970
04-20-2011, 09:24 PM
Beckham is a servicable player, think Scott Fletcher...nothing more, nothing less.

Yikes

LoveYourSuit
04-20-2011, 09:26 PM
LoveYourSuit is on record of irrationally hating Beckham. He called him a bust all last season, even while putting up a line of .310/.380 in the second half, and clamored for the Sox to trade for the .262 hitting, 150 strikeout, atrocious defense having Dan Uggla this offseason. I disagree with you on the extent to which the Sox will be fine this year, but LYS ripping Beckham is just another case of "nothing to see here."


Wow, thanks for reminding me on that. I even forgot I said that, but I'm glad you keep a profile on me. Maybe you can file my income taxes next year also.

And yes, give me Dan Uggla yesterday, today, and tomorrow over Beckham despite his awful start this year with the Braves.

delben91
04-20-2011, 09:44 PM
JB:

Spot on analysis especially the part about the 'head case' vetrans (or as I've often said the mentally weak, leaderless veterans...")

Lip

Honest question, what are some examples of non-mentally weak veterans and how are they superior to say the Paul Konerkos or Mark Buehrles of the league?

SoxSpeed22
04-20-2011, 10:00 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=6143914
In there somewhere is some of the things Michael Young did for the Rangers, even with the trade rumors. Those included preparing for the games, keeping his teammates focused, setting conflicts straight, and taking responsibility for what the team does.
Put any young player in a dysfunctional clubhouse like this one and you get this mess.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 10:00 PM
Delben:

Honest answer. If nothing else a guy who gets in a teamates face, destroys a toilet or breaks a bat at least is showing me that he gives a damn.

Not to say Konerko or Buehrle doesn't but when you shrug off losses and lethargic play but not reacting, not saying anything other than "tip your cap.." it's very hard to tell no? And it does NOTHING to get the point across to your teammates that bad play, losing to garbage teams (remember their record against Cleveland, Baltimore, Kansas City last year?) is unacceptable and they'll be hell to pay if it continues.

The Sox had plenty of "red-ass" players over the years off hand I can think of guys like McDowell, Landis, Hibbard, Ozzie, Rivera coincidentally they usually were on pretty good teams.

Ralph Houk when he was managing the Yankees always had a saying which he'd trot out when the Yanks lost three or four in a row, "don't be afraid to start something, your teammates will be right here to back you up..."

The problem with quiet leaders is nothing seems to change because of their personality. Not saying again, that's a bad thing but you need some different types in the clubhouse. Right now the Sox don't have that.

Lip

Nelfox02
04-20-2011, 10:02 PM
Beckham is a servicable player, think Scott Fletcher...nothing more, nothing less.

I think he may end up a bit better than Fletcher----but overall I agree with your thoughts on Beckham: just another player.....good enough to be a starter on most teams but I dont see any all star appearances, silver sluggers, or GG in his future.

Nelfox02
04-20-2011, 10:04 PM
Delben:

Honest answer. If nothing else a guy who gets in a teamates face, destroys a toilet or breaks a bat at least is showing me that he gives a damn.

Not to say Konerko or Buehrle doesn't but when you shrug off losses and lethargic play but not reacting, not saying anything other than "tip your cap.." it's very hard to tell no? And it does NOTHING to get the point across to your teammates that bad play, losing to garbage teams (remember their record against Cleveland, Baltimore, Kansas City last year?) is unacceptable and they'll be hell to pay if it continues.

The Sox had plenty of "red-ass" players over the years off hand I can think of guys like McDowell, Landis, Hibbard, Ozzie, Rivera coincidentally they usually were on pretty good teams.

Ralph Houk when he was managing the Yankees always had a saying which he'd trot out when the Yanks lost three or four in a row, "don't be afraid to start something, your teammates will be right here to back you up..."

The problem with quiet leaders is nothing seems to change because of their personality. Not saying again, that's a bad thing but you need some different types in the clubhouse. Right now the Sox don't have that.

Lip

It was Orlando Cabrera that called out the Sox clubhouse back in 08 for being too lethargic and complacent with losing right?

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 10:06 PM
With respect Scott Fletcher was EXACTLY the kind of guy this team desperately needs. Somebody who was good in the clubhouse, talked to guys, helped young players, could execute a bunt or a sacrifice fly with the best of them and played outstanding defense especially in his second go-round when he was at 2nd base.

A Fletcher-type who was actually good at fundamentals would give this team some flexibility and not look like complete fools when trying to do the little things.

Lip

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 10:07 PM
Nel:

Correct and that was part of the reason (I say part) the Sox didn't make any real attempts to resign him. From what I was told some of the vets didn't like being put "on the spot" by him.

Lip

DickAllen72
04-20-2011, 10:14 PM
Delben:

Honest answer. If nothing else a guy who gets in a teamates face, destroys a toilet or breaks a bat at least is showing me that he gives a damn.

Not to say Konerko or Buehrle doesn't but when you shrug off losses and lethargic play but not reacting, not saying anything other than "tip your cap.." it's very hard to tell no? And it does NOTHING to get the point across to your teammates that bad play, losing to garbage teams (remember their record against Cleveland, Baltimore, Kansas City last year?) is unacceptable and they'll be hell to pay if it continues.

The Sox had plenty of "red-ass" players over the years off hand I can think of guys like McDowell, Landis, Hibbard, Ozzie, Rivera coincidentally they usually were on pretty good teams.

Ralph Houk when he was managing the Yankees always had a saying which he'd trot out when the Yanks lost three or four in a row, "don't be afraid to start something, your teammates will be right here to back you up..."

The problem with quiet leaders is nothing seems to change because of their personality. Not saying again, that's a bad thing but you need some different types in the clubhouse. Right now the Sox don't have that.

Lip
The White Sox have lacked a clubhouse leader since Carl Everett has been gone.

delben91
04-20-2011, 10:14 PM
Delben:

Honest answer. If nothing else a guy who gets in a teamates face, destroys a toilet or breaks a bat at least is showing me that he gives a damn.

Not to say Konerko or Buehrle doesn't but when you shrug off losses and lethargic play but not reacting, not saying anything other than "tip your cap.." it's very hard to tell no? And it does NOTHING to get the point across to your teammates that bad play, losing to garbage teams (remember their record against Cleveland, Baltimore, Kansas City last year?) is unacceptable and they'll be hell to pay if it continues.

The Sox had plenty of "red-ass" players over the years off hand I can think of guys like McDowell, Landis, Hibbard, Ozzie, Rivera coincidentally they usually were on pretty good teams.

Ralph Houk when he was managing the Yankees always had a saying which he'd trot out when the Yanks lost three or four in a row, "don't be afraid to start something, your teammates will be right here to back you up..."

The problem with quiet leaders is nothing seems to change because of their personality. Not saying again, that's a bad thing but you need some different types in the clubhouse. Right now the Sox don't have that.

Lip

Ok, so who was the vocal leader in 2005? Everett? El Duque? I'm trying to think of that whole roster, and can't imagine it was Dye, or Jenks (rookie) or Cotts, or Widger, or Iguchi. Maybe Rowand? Since Konerko, Buehrle and AJ are out since they're on the current team...

PalehosePlanet
04-20-2011, 10:17 PM
Nel:

Correct and that was part of the reason (I say part) the Sox didn't make any real attempts to resign him. From what I was told some of the vets didn't like being put "on the spot" by him.

Lip

Orlando Cabrera is on his 5th team in three years. He's a big-mouth that's all talk and can't back it up. If you're going to be an ******* you better be a hell of a player otherwise you won't be tolerated.

He'll be on his sixth team in four years next year.

SlowMotion
04-20-2011, 10:19 PM
Anyone know what that business with the bullpen phone was tonight? Cooper was really pissed off because Buehrle was supposed to be the leader in the bullpen or something and relaying messages to the guys to get warmed up. When the camera panned to him he was yucking it up and goofing off and then the whole bullpen bench looked pretty embarrassed.

I was watching the Rays broadcast of the game so I don't know if you all saw that, but the Rays broadcasters stuck with it and kept panning to Cooper and the bullpen and I felt really embarrassed to be a Sox fan at that point. The Rays broadcasters confirmed the phones were working fine, and it was really irritating to see that, especially from Buehrle, who has just exuded this air of indifference since he started seriously fading after the perfecto. I can understand a guys skills fading with age, but cmon, with one year left on your contract and making all that money, at least pretend to care.

DirtySox
04-20-2011, 10:24 PM
Anyone know what that business with the bullpen phone was tonight? Cooper was really pissed off because Buehrle was supposed to be the leader in the bullpen or something and relaying messages to the guys to get warmed up. When the camera panned to him he was yucking it up and goofing off and then the whole bullpen bench looked pretty embarrassed.

I was watching the Rays broadcast of the game so I don't know if you all saw that, but the Rays broadcasters stuck with it and kept panning to Cooper and the bullpen and I felt really embarrassed to be a Sox fan at that point. The Rays broadcasters confirmed the phones were working fine, and it was really irritating to see that, especially from Buehrle, who has just exuded this air of indifference since he started seriously fading after the perfecto. I can understand a guys skills fading with age, but cmon, with one year left on your contract and making all that money, at least pretend to care.

Wat.

Coop was using the wrong phones in the dugout. Despite them being labeled, he called the press box and training room instead of the bullpen. He then used Mark to relay the message to warm up Ohman instead.

SlowMotion
04-20-2011, 10:29 PM
Weird. The Rays announcers were having a field day with it.

Still stand by my Buehrle comments though. :redneck

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 10:41 PM
Delben:

On that 2005 club:

Everett
Hermanson
Hernandez (just ask Contreras what he meant)
A.J. (He was in his first year with the team and did a number of things to get in the heads of the opponents - one example, "accidentally" stepping on the back of a prone Cleveland 3rd baseman when he was rounding the bag and scoring...)
Rowand

Lip

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 11:08 PM
Palehose:

All that may be exactly true...but that also doesn't mean he was wrong in his comments does it?

Lip

LongLiveFisk
04-20-2011, 11:14 PM
With respect Scott Fletcher was EXACTLY the kind of guy this team desperately needs. Somebody who was good in the clubhouse, talked to guys, helped young players, could execute a bunt or a sacrifice fly with the best of them and played outstanding defense especially in his second go-round when he was at 2nd base.

A Fletcher-type who was actually good at fundamentals would give this team some flexibility and not look like complete fools when trying to do the little things.

Lip

I agree with this. Always appreciated Scotty. It's too bad some of the younger posters here won't remember him.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-20-2011, 11:25 PM
Orlando Cabrera is on his 5th team in three years. He's a big-mouth that's all talk and can't back it up. If you're going to be an ******* you better be a hell of a player otherwise you won't be tolerated.

He'll be on his sixth team in four years next year.

OC is a winner. Dude played 161 games and lead off when the roster was devoid of a lead off hitter. He was a HUGE part of this regime's only other playoff appearance yet he gets a bad rap. Since you don't seem to know, he helped the Twins as a midseason acquisition in 2009, the Reds in 2010 and is currently getting a lot credit from the Tribe as a veteran stabilizing force.

Whatever it is that Ozzie doesn't like about him is probably what this team needs. Ozzie is a classless for not giving him his due. Just like how he was classless regarding Big Frank and just like how he is classless in general.

SlowMotion
04-20-2011, 11:29 PM
OC is a winner. Dude played 161 games and lead off when the roster was devoid of a lead off hitter. He was a HUGE part of this regime's only other playoff appearance yet he gets a bad rap. Since you don't seem to know, he helped the Twins as a midseason acquisition in 2009, the Reds in 2010 and is currently getting a lot credit from the Tribe as a veteran stabilizing force.

Whatever it is that Ozzie doesn't like about him is probably what this team needs. Ozzie is a classless for not giving him his due. Just like how he was classless regarding Big Frank and just like how he is classless in general.

Man. A-freakin' men.

The O-Cab hate around here and from other fans I've met in rl is just strange.

BainesHOF
04-21-2011, 12:56 AM
I've never been a drinker of the Beckham Kool-Aid. Up to this point, his swing is much too big to be consistently successful. Walker has to take some responsibility for this. Beckham is never going to hit for much power in terms of home runs. He's not particularly fast for a middle infielder, either. He doesn't seem to be a very smart player judging by his failure to make good adjustments in the box and his number of baserunning mistakes.

I'm most disappointed by his fielding. I assumed that because he was a shortstop in college that he'd eventually be able to handle another infield position. I think I was wrong about that. While Beckham does make some nice plays, he butchers more than his share of balls and has consistent trouble on double plays. Plus his range is nothing special.

I'm pulling for him because he's a likeable guy, but I'm afraid he's going to be a flat-out bust. It's unfortunate that the Sox have jacked him around my switching his position a couple times and by batting him out of place in the second spot. I like A.J., but I'm not sure he was the best player to be taking Beckham under his wing either.

Big Hurt so good
04-21-2011, 04:41 AM
Beckham is a servicable player, think Scott Fletcher...nothing more, nothing less.

you're absolutely out of your mind...

the guy has been in the league less than 2 full seasons and he's nothing more than a "grinder/serviceable" player?

what we've seen from him in his brief career is that he is capable of getting real hot for long stretches and really cold for long stretches... that's common in young players and he'll find consistency with age... i think a guy with .280/18-20 homer/70-80 rbi potential is pretty good...

all that being said, he's also not the only guy on this team that likes going real hot and real cold for long stretches, and the others who do it are established veterans...

veeter
04-21-2011, 07:09 AM
Beckham does not have a long swing. His swing is short and quick. He just has problems with his bat position. He likes to have it pointing straight up. He should flatten it out, like Charlie Lau would have them do. They're messing with his hands this year, which I noticed as he sets up. Beckham has the body language of a very confused, struggling player. In year three, if he was a star in the making, he shouldn't be struggling with these major mechanical issues. He should be coming into his own.

Nelfox02
04-21-2011, 07:15 AM
what we've seen from him in his brief career is that he is capable of getting real hot for long stretches and really cold for long stretches

well, then he fits in perfect with our current team offensive philosophy!

hi im skot
04-21-2011, 07:58 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=6143914
In there somewhere is some of the things Michael Young did for the Rangers, even with the trade rumors. Those included preparing for the games, keeping his teammates focused, setting conflicts straight, and taking responsibility for what the team does.
Put any young player in a dysfunctional clubhouse like this one and you get this mess.

The Sox lose seven in a row and now the clubhouse is dysfunctional?

Okay...

doublem23
04-21-2011, 08:00 AM
OC is a winner. Dude played 161 games and lead off when the roster was devoid of a lead off hitter. He was a HUGE part of this regime's only other playoff appearance yet he gets a bad rap. Since you don't seem to know, he helped the Twins as a midseason acquisition in 2009, the Reds in 2010 and is currently getting a lot credit from the Tribe as a veteran stabilizing force.

Whatever it is that Ozzie doesn't like about him is probably what this team needs. Ozzie is a classless for not giving him his due. Just like how he was classless regarding Big Frank and just like how he is classless in general.

Cabrera might be a winner, but there's a reason he bounces around from team to team seemingly every year, and that's also because he's a total jackass and his teammates can't stand him.

Alexei is probably one of the best young shortstops in the game. The Sox made the right.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 09:34 AM
OC is a winner. Dude played 161 games and lead off when the roster was devoid of a lead off hitter. He was a HUGE part of this regime's only other playoff appearance yet he gets a bad rap. Since you don't seem to know, he helped the Twins as a midseason acquisition in 2009, the Reds in 2010 and is currently getting a lot credit from the Tribe as a veteran stabilizing force.

Whatever it is that Ozzie doesn't like about him is probably what this team needs. Ozzie is a classless for not giving him his due. Just like how he was classless regarding Big Frank and just like how he is classless in general.


This is pure Ozzie hate. Ozzie liked OC. What Ozzie didn't like was the way OC approached leadership, clubhouse fighting and calling out the Vets in late Sept. PK and JD had more to OC not coming back than OG. And now look how many other teams realized their mistake of signing OC since his stint with the Sox?

Bacon, you get more transparent with each post.

Ozzie wasn't classless with Frank. He was gaining control of his new team. Frank went classless which in turn lead Kenny down the classless path, then Ozzie jumped on.

We get it. You hate everything Ozzie Guillen

BringHomeDaBacon
04-21-2011, 09:43 AM
This is pure Ozzie hate. Ozzie liked OC. What Ozzie didn't like was the way OC approached leadership, clubhouse fighting and calling out the Vets in late Sept. PK and JD had more to OC not coming back than OG. And now look how many other teams realized their mistake of signing OC since his stint with the Sox?

Bacon, you get more transparent with each post.

Ozzie wasn't classless with Frank. He was gaining control of his new team. Frank went classless which in turn lead Kenny down the classless path, then Ozzie jumped on.

We get it. You hate everything Ozzie Guillen

I haven't always felt this way but I admit that his act has worn thin on me. All the sacrifice bunting this year and essentially telling the fans to **** off has put me over the top.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-21-2011, 09:48 AM
Cabrera might be a winner, but there's a reason he bounces around from team to team seemingly every year, and that's also because he's a total jackass and his teammates can't stand him.

Alexei is probably one of the best young shortstops in the game. The Sox made the right.

I agree. No way a player that is a great fit bounces from team to team. Someone would lock him up. Didn't he used to call the official score keeper an complain whenever he got an error?

SlowMotion
04-21-2011, 09:48 AM
Beckham does not have a long swing. His swing is short and quick. He just has problems with his bat position. He likes to have it pointing straight up. He should flatten it out, like Charlie Lau would have them do. They're messing with his hands this year, which I noticed as he sets up. Beckham has the body language of a very confused, struggling player. In year three, if he was a star in the making, he shouldn't be struggling with these major mechanical issues. He should be coming into his own.

It is still too early I think to call him a bust, as anything can happen. But I will be completely honest, ever since I saw Beckham step into a batters box I never thought he'd amount to much in this league. His stance, hand placement, body language, everything just screamed "serviceable grinder" like others have said here. When he got hot during his rookie campaign I was really surprised and willing to eat my shoe. I think a lot of things have combined to rob this kid of his chance to shine, including poor management and being thrusted into the face of the franchise role after part of a rookie season. But aside from that, I just don't think he will ever be all that good. Is he capable of stealing 10 bags even, let alone 15 at this young age? He looks way too incapable of duplicating his swing day in day out to hit 20 homers. It's as if he is mirroring Quentin, yet playing like Ryan Theriot minus the speed and avg.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-21-2011, 09:59 AM
Cabrera might be a winner, but there's a reason he bounces around from team to team seemingly every year, and that's also because he's a total jackass and his teammates can't stand him.

Alexei is probably one of the best young shortstops in the game. The Sox made the right.

How does he "bounce from team to team?" After playing 7 seasons for the Expos he was traded mid-season in 2004 to the contending BoSox and helped them get to the post-season. He then signed as a FA with LAA in 2005 (post-season) and played with them until he was traded to the Sox before the 2008 (post-season). He signed a one year contract with the As and was traded to the contending Twins in 2009 and helped them to the post-season. In 2010 he played for the Reds and made the post-season. They had Janish waiting in the wings and he moved on to the division leading Tribe this year. So he's been traded TWICE mid-season to contending teams to start for them and hit at the top of the order and play SS. He's also made the post-season numerous times with teams that just needed a solid SS to get there. His career profile is that of a player good teams have looked for and has been the exact opposite of a guy that "bounces from team to team" because nobody wants him.

Just to be clear, I am in no way saying that the Sox should have necessarily kept him. I'm just saying that the disparaging comments that are flung around about him around here are unwarranted.

SlowMotion
04-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Cabrera might be a winner, but there's a reason he bounces around from team to team seemingly every year, and that's also because he's a total jackass and his teammates can't stand him.

Alexei is probably one of the best young shortstops in the game. The Sox made the right.

:rolleyes: Pure lies.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 10:17 AM
:rolleyes: Pure lies.

it isn't. The proof is on the back of this years baseball card. but whatever helps you build a case ...

doublem23
04-21-2011, 10:21 AM
:rolleyes: Pure lies.

I forgot, every "proven winner" in baseball history has a stretch of 8 season when they wind up on 8 different teams.

Have fun in Cleveland, Orlando. :rolling:

doublem23
04-21-2011, 10:22 AM
How does he "bounce from team to team?" After playing 7 seasons for the Expos he was traded mid-season in 2004 to the contending BoSox and helped them get to the post-season. He then signed as a FA with LAA in 2005 (post-season) and played with them until he was traded to the Sox before the 2008 (post-season). He signed a one year contract with the As and was traded to the contending Twins in 2009 and helped them to the post-season. In 2010 he played for the Reds and made the post-season. They had Janish waiting in the wings and he moved on to the division leading Tribe this year. So he's been traded TWICE mid-season to contending teams to start for them and hit at the top of the order and play SS. He's also made the post-season numerous times with teams that just needed a solid SS to get there. His career profile is that of a player good teams have looked for and has been the exact opposite of a guy that "bounces from team to team" because nobody wants him.

Just to be clear, I am in no way saying that the Sox should have necessarily kept him. I'm just saying that the disparaging comments that are flung around about him around here are unwarranted.

in the 8 seasons from 2004-2011, Orlando has racked up 8 different uniforms. If that's not "bouncing from team to team," I don't know what is.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 10:24 AM
I've been looking for the right thread for this rant for years and this one seems to be the most fitting.

I'm sick of the they're all professionals defense of Ozzie and guys like Cabrera. Whether it's sports or your ****ing day to day job everyone should be able to see the connection, even if their personal theory on life is different.

The fact is each of these guys are human. Some are professionals in the true sense of the word. Others are professional only because they have the talent to make the bigs. You have 25 guys that have divorces, are veterans, are young and single and out hounding around. That's 25 different personalities. Not everyone is going to mesh. But a great team is a team where all these 25 different personalities feel welcomed and relaxed. For whatever reason we had that in 2005. Oz was a big part of that but since then he has clearly tried to force his beliefs on the team. And they're beliefs that have gotten stuck in quick sand.

Oz was that wildcard back in the day, but he's become so rigid in his veterans and play the game his way attitude that he's become a joke. I guarantee you the smart vets, Burls n Konerko n AJ just tune him out. They have booth and coaching positions on their minds. The few young guys that get a shot are totally messed up with his way of throwing them under the bus.

Ozzie has such a napolean complex that he's only good for what 2005 brought us. He wasn't established and still had his playing days fresh in his mind. He's now so defensive and self assured that it is his way is the best option or else. For a guy that's out drinking his ass off every night at carmicheals, he's sitting here holding early 20 somethings to some tea totaller requirement when none of these guys have come close to the shenangigans that have happened at the bars on the northside.

Ozzie has forgotten who he is and what he did at 22 years of age. He's worn thin on the vets and has trashed some younguns. He's ruined good tough love on guys like Jenks, for trashing young guys trying to find their way in McCarthy and Anderson, among others.

I feel there is a really poor connection between our players and coach. We have and have had, a vast majority of great players and great people on this team that go about their business in the correct way but I feel Oz has ruined them.

My experience is the Paulie's, Burhls, Dye, Thome etc. are true professionals and established, but are also smart enough to realize when to go through the motions.

They can support the young guys or struggling guys all they want, but when an entire team gives up on the coach it's over. I've felt, and now feel assured, that Ozzie has become a joke and no one truly respects him for his vision and forward thinking. They may respect him for his past, but no one respects him for his future.

And it's sad since Oz clearly has some good qualities, he's the type of guy that people say wait till next year on, but when he reverts to the SOS it's easy to tune him out.

SoxSpeed22
04-21-2011, 10:27 AM
The Sox lose seven in a row and now the clubhouse is dysfunctional?

Okay...The clubhouse has been dysfunctional for years, even going back to 2008 when Cabrera was mad about that bad Minnesota series, when all of the players were hanging their heads, like they got swept, before that series even started. They also let a couple of bad 9th innings get them down to the point where they haven't shown a pulse in 7 games.

hi im skot
04-21-2011, 10:54 AM
The clubhouse has been dysfunctional for years, even going back to 2008 when Cabrera was mad about that bad Minnesota series, when all of the players were hanging their heads, like they got swept, before that series even started. They also let a couple of bad 9th innings get them down to the point where they haven't shown a pulse in 7 games.

While I'm no ballplayer and don't have the clubhouse access that you apparently have, it's pretty common for every clubhouse in baseball to have issues from time to time. We as fans just don't hear about every single incident. And a few incidents does not equal a "bad" clubhouse.

I don't see how a losing streak automatically means there's a dysfunctional clubhouse, but I'd love to hear how you're able to prove an actual cause and effect.

wassagstdu
04-21-2011, 11:58 AM
Not everyone is going to mesh. But a great team is a team where all these 25 different personalities feel welcomed and relaxed. For whatever reason we had that in 2005. Oz was a big part of that but since then he has clearly tried to force his beliefs on the team. And they're beliefs that have gotten stuck in quick sand.

Oz was that wildcard back in the day, but he's become so rigid in his veterans and play the game his way attitude that he's become a joke. I guarantee you the smart vets, Burls n Konerko n AJ just tune him out. They have booth and coaching positions on their minds. The few young guys that get a shot are totally messed up with his way of throwing them under the bus.

Ozzie has such a napolean complex that he's only good for what 2005 brought us. He wasn't established and still had his playing days fresh in his mind. He's now so defensive and self assured that it is his way is the best option or else. For a guy that's out drinking his ass off every night at carmicheals, he's sitting here holding early 20 somethings to some tea totaller requirement when none of these guys have come close to the shenangigans that have happened at the bars on the northside.

Ozzie has forgotten who he is and what he did at 22 years of age. He's worn thin on the vets and has trashed some younguns. He's ruined good tough love on guys like Jenks, for trashing young guys trying to find their way in McCarthy and Anderson, among others.

I feel there is a really poor connection between our players and coach. We have and have had, a vast majority of great players and great people on this team that go about their business in the correct way but I feel Oz has ruined them.

My experience is the Paulie's, Burhls, Dye, Thome etc. are true professionals and established, but are also smart enough to realize when to go through the motions.

They can support the young guys or struggling guys all they want, but when an entire team gives up on the coach it's over. I've felt, and now feel assured, that Ozzie has become a joke and no one truly respects for his vision and forward thinking. They may respect him for his past, but no one respects him for his future.

And it's sad since Oz clearly has some good qualities, he's the type of guy that people say wait till next year on, but when he reverts to the SOS it's easy to tune him out.
There has been no evidence that anything you say is true, and I can guarantee you that it is all projection and all bull****. That is what I feel.

The Sox have not lived up to fans' expectations because those expectations were overblown, not because Ozzie screwed things up. The Sox rotation never was the best in the league and wasn't going to be. Adam Dunn's home run or strikeout strategy was never going to make the Sox the most formidable lineup in the league, and some young players went bust because they were not good, not because Ozzie ruined them. The Sox have performed up to objective expectations, given that the team has been ill-conceived and put together without regard to anything but the long ball and starting pitching. One dimensional offense and one-dimensional defense. In my view (and I guarantee it) Ozzie has tried mightily to manage a well-rounded team to play his way (i.e. win consistently), but has not been given a complete team to work with since 2005.

But I could be wrong, since I only know what I see on TV, unlike so many others.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 12:04 PM
There has been no evidence that anything you say is true, and I can guarantee you that it is all projection and all bull****. That is what I feel.

The Sox have not lived up to fans' expectations because those expectations were overblown, not because Ozzie screwed things up. The Sox rotation never was the best in the league and wasn't going to be. Adam Dunn's home run or strikeout strategy was never going to make the Sox the most formidable lineup in the league, and some young players went bust because they were not good, not because Ozzie ruined them. The Sox have performed up to objective expectations, given that the team has been ill-conceived and put together without regard to anything but the long ball and starting pitching. One dimensional offense and one-dimensional defense. In my view (and I guarantee it) Ozzie has tried mightily to manage a well-rounded team to play his way (i.e. win consistently), but has not been given a complete team to work with since 2005.

But I could be wrong, since I only know what I see on TV, unlike so many others.
While baseball is more subjective than any other sport, and I'm not claiming they should have been a juggernaut for all these years, but they've clearly had better talent than most for the last 6 years and they've without a doubt underperformed. You can either defend Oz because he's Oz or defend him through that subjectivity. However using that subjectivity as an excuse after 6 years is old and flat out wrong. For a season here and there it's one thing, but there's now a track record and the fact is it shows that Ozzie is a below average manager.

Nelfox02
04-21-2011, 12:08 PM
The Sox have not lived up to fans' expectations because those expectations were overblown, not because Ozzie screwed things up. Ozzie has tried mightily to manage a well-rounded team to play his way (i.e. win consistently), but has not been given a complete team to work with since 2005.



I thought this was a Beckham thread? :scratch:


however I agree with your point to some degree, this team had some serious issues coming into the year (my pre season pick of 85 wins is now starting to look shaky). I would say tho, that was probably the most complete team Ozzie got since 2006.

All teams go into the season with some question marks, it just seems like all sox question marks usually end up going the wrong way....

And I dont think Ozzie is doing the best job to put this team in position to win with a lot of his in game and line up decisions.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Results wise, Ozzie is pretty much Mike Sciocia.

Not a lot of people want him fired ... the two situations are not all that different either, but I'm sure someone will point to vast differences.

Nelfox02
04-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Results wise, Ozzie is pretty much Mike Sciocia.

Not a lot of people want him fired ... the two situations are not all that different either, but I'm sure someone will point to vast differences.


just off the bat----Ozzie has won the division twice, been to the ALCS once, and has 1 pennant and 1 WS title.....Scioscia? 6 division titles, been to the ALCS three times, 1 pennant and 1 WS title

heck of lot more playoff baseball for Scioscia......

doublem23
04-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Results wise, Ozzie is pretty much Mike Sciocia.

Not a lot of people want him fired ... the two situations are not all that different either, but I'm sure someone will point to vast differences.

The first being that Mike Scioscia ran of a string of 6 AL West Championships in 7 years.

Ozzie's won the Central Division twice in 7 seasons.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Results wise, Ozzie is pretty much Mike Sciocia.

Not a lot of people want him fired ... the two situations are not all that different either, but I'm sure someone will point to vast differences.
Sciocia is the person who told a young Paul Konerko to switch from Catcher to First. He said it would be a good career move for him.

daveeym
04-21-2011, 12:36 PM
The first being that Mike Scioscia ran of a string of 6 AL West Championships in 7 years.

Ozzie's won the Central Division twice in 7 seasons.

Glad he didn't teal Vast. Because that seems pretty damn vast to me.

DumpJerry
04-21-2011, 12:36 PM
:rolleyes: Pure lies.
Glad to see you like to stay in touch with us, Orlando.

Jim Shorts
04-21-2011, 12:36 PM
hard to argue 4 more division titles that's a bunch of playoff baseball. Though flags and rings are the same

thomas35forever
04-21-2011, 12:49 PM
Check out this tweet:
Gordon Beckham career batting 2nd - 92/407 (.226 avg, .308 obp), 8th - 36/107 (.336 avg, .390 obp), 9th - 84/302 (.278 avg, .338 obp)

doublem23
04-21-2011, 01:14 PM
hard to argue 4 more division titles that's a bunch of playoff baseball. Though flags and rings are the same

The argument's not that Orlando's not a good ballplayer, but he's also a divisive dick who constantly gets shuffled around because his managers and teammates eventually tire of him. The way the Orlando Cabrera fanboys make it sound like Ozzie and the Sox were the only team he proved incompatible with. The reality is plenty of baseball minds, spanning all philosophies on the game (Theo, Terry Francona, Billy Beane, Dusty Baker, Ron Gardenhire, Mike Scioscia) eventually let him walk in part because they tired of him. If he's such a "proven winner" that's so coveted around the league, why is always getting replaced for the next great thing?

Spin it however you want. 8 teams in 8 seasons. Think about that.

DonnieDarko
04-21-2011, 01:32 PM
Check out this tweet:

I do think that part of his struggles are because he bats in the 2 hole, which I know is where he doesn't produce very well. For the love of God, he should bat lower in the order, and Ramirez should take the second spot.

PalehosePlanet
04-21-2011, 01:44 PM
OC is a winner. Dude played 161 games and lead off when the roster was devoid of a lead off hitter. He was a HUGE part of this regime's only other playoff appearance yet he gets a bad rap. Since you don't seem to know, he helped the Twins as a midseason acquisition in 2009, the Reds in 2010 and is currently getting a lot credit from the Tribe as a veteran stabilizing force.

Whatever it is that Ozzie doesn't like about him is probably what this team needs. Ozzie is a classless for not giving him his due. Just like how he was classless regarding Big Frank and just like how he is classless in general.

Yet neither team would resign him the next year for even utility player money. Why is that?

Look, plenty of posters here have already strongly backed up my original post regarding Cabrera. He's a journey man ******* who is a below averge player who is not worth the headaches. If he was he wouldn't be on his 5th team in less than three years. Period.

Stabilizing force in Cleveland? HA! Just wait until they hit a losing streak, then he'll go from leader to cancer in a hurry.

As for Beckham, he went through a sophomore slump last year, and is off to a slow start this year. People panicking and saying he's a possible bust is waaaaay to premature. I think he'll warm up and have a solid .280/20HR type of year and ease most people's minds.

TheOldRoman
04-21-2011, 02:02 PM
Two big keys for not bringing Cabrera back are 1)He would have gotten too much money, and 2)He felt that he should be the everyday shortstop, even though the Sox wisely knew Alexei was better. He wouldn't have wanted to play 2B. As you remember, the Sox offered him arbitration (and risked having to pay him $10 mil in 09) just to get a draft pick. They didn't even want him back to play 2B. Kenny (possibly against the rules) told him "You better not accept arbitration. If you do, your ass is sitting on the bench the entire year."

In summary: too much money, universally hated, not a team player and no position for him.

PalehosePlanet
04-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Palehose:

All that may be exactly true...but that also doesn't mean he was wrong in his comments does it?

Lip

Maybe not, but coming from a selfish ass who calls the official scorer in the middle of a game from the dugout to complain about an error, and a guy who goes 2-16 in the playoffs, make his statements ring hollow, don't you think?

Lip Man 1
04-21-2011, 02:39 PM
Pale:

Except he made them before the post season started when the Sox almost, almost let the thing slip away the final week.

Again talking about his character or his performance doesn't make those comments wrong. You can choose to make them a factor in what he said, but that doesn't mean they were incorrect.

I'm not defending the guy, simply saying that the comments he made had a ring of truth to me and from what I've been told, to others... some in the organization.

Lip

voodoochile
04-21-2011, 02:56 PM
I hope Ozzie is gone before the 2 months are up.

Wow really?

Personally I hope in two months the Sox are leading the division, but to each their own I guess...

voodoochile
04-21-2011, 02:58 PM
And do what? Miss the playoffs again?

Guess we'll find out when the othe 85% of the season plays out.

WhiteSox5187
04-21-2011, 03:18 PM
The argument's not that Orlando's not a good ballplayer, but he's also a divisive dick who constantly gets shuffled around because his managers and teammates eventually tire of him. The way the Orlando Cabrera fanboys make it sound like Ozzie and the Sox were the only team he proved incompatible with. The reality is plenty of baseball minds, spanning all philosophies on the game (Theo, Terry Francona, Billy Beane, Dusty Baker, Ron Gardenhire, Mike Scioscia) eventually let him walk in part because they tired of him. If he's such a "proven winner" that's so coveted around the league, why is always getting replaced for the next great thing?

Spin it however you want. 8 teams in 8 seasons. Think about that.

I think the more interesting stat is that since 2007 he has never been on the same team for longer than a year. Even with teams that make the playoffs. THAT says a lot.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-21-2011, 03:22 PM
Yet neither team would resign him the next year for even utility player money. Why is that?


In each case the team wanted to go younger. The Twins traded for just entering his prime years JJ Hardy and the Reds had Paul Janish waiting in the wings.

PatK
04-21-2011, 03:39 PM
It's too early to be calling Beckham a bust.

I think the local media is making too much of a deal about it because Starlin Castro is off to a hot start this year and constantly comparing the two.

DonnieDarko
04-21-2011, 04:51 PM
Who the hell is comparing Beckham to Castro and why?

SlowMotion
04-21-2011, 05:23 PM
Glad to see you like to stay in touch with us, Orlando.

It's just really lame that some people here choose attack certain players/people and not provide any evidence or anything. It's intellectually dishonest.

Brian26
04-21-2011, 09:15 PM
It's just really lame that some people here choose attack certain players/people and not provide any evidence or anything. It's intellectually dishonest.

The evidence is fairly clear, even to the casual viewer at home who saw Jermaine Dye go after him in the dugout.

doublem23
04-21-2011, 09:33 PM
The evidence is fairly clear, even to the casual viewer at home who saw Jermaine Dye go after him in the dugout.

Yes, there's a difference between a "lack of evidence" and just choosing to ignore it.

slavko
04-21-2011, 11:35 PM
As for Beckham, he went through a sophomore slump last year, and is off to a slow start this year. People panicking and saying he's a possible bust is waaaaay to premature. I think he'll warm up and have a solid .280/20HR type of year and ease most people's minds.

Possible bust has a 3 length lead over solid season at this point in the race.:D:

Hitmen77
04-22-2011, 07:51 AM
As for Beckham, he went through a sophomore slump last year, and is off to a slow start this year. People panicking and saying he's a possible bust is waaaaay to premature. I think he'll warm up and have a solid .280/20HR type of year and ease most people's minds.

Oh, why did you have to ruin the fun and bring rational thought into this discussion about Beckham?

PatK
04-22-2011, 01:41 PM
Who the hell is comparing Beckham to Castro and why?

The biggest offender has been Dan McNeil.

SlowMotion
04-22-2011, 01:48 PM
Oh, why did you have to ruin the fun and bring rational thought into this discussion about Beckham?

If being streaky and looking lost at the plate for long stretches of time and not being elite in one category for his position becomes the norm for Beckham like it has been so far in his career, what is there to be so optimistic and excited about? A good second half of a season where he still ends up with paltry numbers?

He's still young, but the more he slumps like this the less likely it is that he will turn into the star some had him pegged as, imo.

SlowMotion
04-22-2011, 01:50 PM
The biggest offender has been Dan McNeil.

It's just the whole cross-town rivaly thing. Plus, both have been pegged as the future of their respective franchises basically. They are both middle infielders. Both young...

Not a completely ridiculous comparison but it's understandable because what else are people going to talk about on sports radio for 5 hours? Gotta start making stuff up.

Foulke You
04-22-2011, 01:56 PM
If being streaky and looking lost at the plate for long stretches of time and not being elite in one category for his position becomes the norm for Beckham like it has been so far in his career, what is there to be so optimistic and excited about? A good second half of a season where he still ends up with paltry numbers?

He's still young, but the more he slumps like this the less likely it is that he will turn into the star some had him pegged as, imo.
Young players sometimes take a while before something "clicks". Take a look at Alex Gordon in KC. I know it is early but it appears that Alex has figured things out. Similar situation too as both Alex Gordon and Gordon Beckham were both annointed franchise saviors. KC fans were beginning to wonder if he was all hype but now they are glad they had the patience to wait for him. I also look at the time it took Joe Crede to develop when many were ready to give up on him in 2004. I think Beckham will become a good player, it just might take a little while for it to click. I do agree with other posters that the 2 hole is not the right spot for him. I'd like to see him 8th or 9th.

SlowMotion
04-22-2011, 02:01 PM
Young players sometimes take a while before something "clicks". Take a look at Alex Gordon in KC. I know it is early but it appears that Alex has figured things out. Similar situation too as both Alex Gordon and Gordon Beckham were both annointed franchise saviors. KC fans were beginning to wonder if he was all hype but now they are glad they had the patience to wait for him. I also look at the time it took Joe Crede to develop when many were ready to give up on him in 2004. I think Beckham will become a good player, it just might take a little while for it to click. I do agree with other posters that the 2 hole is not the right spot for him. I'd like to see him 8th or 9th.

I agree. It's been said so many times: Beckham shouldn't be hitting 2nd.

I'm willing to give Beckham some time, but the mismanagement is just downright maddening. You bring up Alex Gordon, and what did KC do when he was slumping? Sent him to AAA. He's been raking since spring training.

Ozzie 1) refuses to take him out of the 2 hole 2) refuses to send him to triple A to get his head clear

mzh
04-22-2011, 02:08 PM
There is so much complaint about how the organization rushes players and gives up on them too easily, but some fans need to look in the mirror. People may say that it was a huge mistake by the organization to not give Gio Gonzalez a chance, but do you think us fans would have sat through 2 years of suckage like Oakland did? It's been barely 2 and a half years and people are already declaring Beckham a bust, COME ON. Superstars don't happen immediately. We know Beckham as the talent, as we saw in 09, but he is human. Not everyone is an Albert Pujols who comes up to the bigs, hits .340/40/120 and never looks back, yet that is what people expect. People blame the organization for Chris Young, Daniel Hudson, and Gio Gonzalez, but those same people would be crying for a sell-low trade if they had to watch them develop over the course of a couple years.

Big Hurt so good
04-22-2011, 02:23 PM
There is so much complaint about how the organization rushes players and gives up on them too easily, but some fans need to look in the mirror. People may say that it was a huge mistake by the organization to not give Gio Gonzalez a chance, but do you think us fans would have sat through 2 years of suckage like Oakland did? It's been barely 2 and a half years and people are already declaring Beckham a bust, COME ON. Superstars don't happen immediately. We know Beckham as the talent, as we saw in 09, but he is human. Not everyone is an Albert Pujols who comes up to the bigs, hits .340/40/120 and never looks back, yet that is what people expect. People blame the organization for Chris Young, Daniel Hudson, and Gio Gonzalez, but those same people would be crying for a sell-low trade if they had to watch them develop over the course of a couple years.

totally agree with you... and while KW's unwillingness to deal Beckham may come back to bite the sox, if he had traded him and the guy does go on to be a consistent .300/20 HR multi-All Star guy everyone on here will flip out

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-22-2011, 02:36 PM
Beckham is batting 8th tonight.

JB98
04-22-2011, 11:31 PM
There is so much complaint about how the organization rushes players and gives up on them too easily, but some fans need to look in the mirror. People may say that it was a huge mistake by the organization to not give Gio Gonzalez a chance, but do you think us fans would have sat through 2 years of suckage like Oakland did? It's been barely 2 and a half years and people are already declaring Beckham a bust, COME ON. Superstars don't happen immediately. We know Beckham as the talent, as we saw in 09, but he is human. Not everyone is an Albert Pujols who comes up to the bigs, hits .340/40/120 and never looks back, yet that is what people expect. People blame the organization for Chris Young, Daniel Hudson, and Gio Gonzalez, but those same people would be crying for a sell-low trade if they had to watch them develop over the course of a couple years.

But the organization sold Beckham to the fans as the next big thing, causing expectations to soar to unfair levels. That's part of the reason we have a thread like this right now.

tick53
04-24-2011, 09:27 AM
I hate so say it because I had so much faith in Gordon but I believe he's going to be a mediocre to bad player...It's sucks I have to that..

TheVulture
04-24-2011, 06:30 PM
you're absolutely out of your mind...

the guy has been in the league less than 2 full seasons and he's nothing more than a "grinder/serviceable" player?



Compared to what we've seen from the Sox the last couple of weeks, servicable seems like a major improvement.

LoveYourSuit
04-27-2011, 08:27 PM
I think it's time you send him down to the minors.

Let him find his hitting stroke down there because the only thing he'll learn from Walker is how to hold a good poker face.

Save this kid's career, send him down there to get his head right.

BainesHOF
04-27-2011, 11:30 PM
Send Beckham to the minors, move Lillibridge to second and add a defensive outfielder.

Crooked Number
04-28-2011, 12:28 AM
Like most have stated, Beckham was given the keys to this franchise and anointed as the chosen one before he even played one full mlb season. He came on like gangbusters, so the expectations were incredibly high.

Most wanted Michael Young type numbers immediately, so the pressure on him was immense. Instead of getting a few important developmental "cutting your teeth" seasons under his belt, where astronomical numbers were not expected, he was thrown to the wolves. All the while making him learn two new infield positions in as many years. Talk about putting someone in a position to fail.

Gordon has the potential, and the tools. I strongly believe that he will figure it out, and not become a total bust as some here are expressing. Unfortunately the White Sox are needing huge things out of him. Most here know baseball enough to realize that the majority of prospects don't break into the league like Tulowitzki or Pedroia. It may take two, three, sometimes four years for a guy to find it. Alex Gordon seems to be on the brink of finding it this season, his fifth.

He needs more time to play. Growing pains hurt, but they help define you. Let's see how Becks handles it. Sox fans are going to have to grin and bear it.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-28-2011, 01:42 AM
Like most have stated, Beckham was given the keys to this franchise and anointed as the chosen one before he even played one full mlb season. He came on like gangbusters, so the expectations were incredibly high.

Most wanted Michael Young type numbers immediately, so the pressure on him was immense. Instead of getting a few important developmental "cutting your teeth" seasons under his belt, where astronomical numbers were not expected, he was thrown to the wolves. All the while making him learn two new infield positions in as many years. Talk about putting someone in a position to fail.

Gordon has the potential, and the tools. I strongly believe that he will figure it out, and not become a total bust as some here are expressing. Unfortunately the White Sox are needing huge things out of him. Most here know baseball enough to realize that the majority of prospects don't break into the league like Tulowitzki or Pedroia. It may take two, three, sometimes four years for a guy to find it. Alex Gordon seems to be on the brink of finding it this season, his fifth.

He needs more time to play. Growing pains hurt, but they help define you. Let's see how Becks handles it. Sox fans are going to have to grin and bear it.

I hope this is right. I keep going back and forth on what to think of him. Something I started thinking about, I know this probably has nothing to do with him and is still a year or two away, but if Eduardo Escobar lights it up in Charlotte, I wonder what the Sox do with that situation. They have Alexei entrenched at SS. Escobar is better with the glove than Beckham, and if Beckham continues to struggle, does he essentially become replaceable?

SephClone89
04-28-2011, 07:32 AM
I hope this is right. I keep going back and forth on what to think of him. Something I started thinking about, I know this probably has nothing to do with him and is still a year or two away, but if Eduardo Escobar lights it up in Charlotte, I wonder what the Sox do with that situation. They have Alexei entrenched at SS. Escobar is better with the glove than Beckham, and if Beckham continues to struggle, does he essentially become replaceable?

Considering Escobar apparently can't hit at all, I'd say no way.

Crooked Number
04-28-2011, 12:22 PM
I hope this is right. I keep going back and forth on what to think of him. Something I started thinking about, I know this probably has nothing to do with him and is still a year or two away, but if Eduardo Escobar lights it up in Charlotte, I wonder what the Sox do with that situation. They have Alexei entrenched at SS. Escobar is better with the glove than Beckham, and if Beckham continues to struggle, does he essentially become replaceable?


Besides the fact that it would be PR suicide, this would take months and months of current Beckham production to even consider. If Gordon does continue his horrid pace, I think you would see more playing time for Omar and *gasp* Teahen at 2B.

BainesHOF
04-28-2011, 10:07 PM
Besides the fact that it would be PR suicide, this would take months and months of current Beckham production to even consider. If Gordon does continue his horrid pace, I think you would see more playing time for Omar and *gasp* Teahen at 2B.

Right now, I don't think Teahen has the mobility to even consider playing him at second. He can barely move in the outfield.

billcissell
04-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Let's give the kid a little more time. It's a good idea to keep him down in the lineup, maybe 7th or 8th, possibly 9th in the order.

The Sox set this kid up for failure with the big expectations and moving him around defensively. Getting off to a great start when they initially brought him up created a false sense of superstardom. He seems overmatched at times against too many pitchers. His confidence is down, and he has trouble with inside stuff and the high heat.

I still say he'll be fine in the long run. But there's a lot of pressure on him now. Maybe if some of these other guys would start hitting, he'd come around also.

DirtySox
04-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Anyone else notice how awful Gordon's swing looks? I haven't seen it first hand until just recently, but Farmer/DJ have been lamenting it for a bit now. It looks so mechanical and there is a noticeable hitch. He has no chance on a decent fastball right now.

Daver
04-29-2011, 07:58 PM
I think it's time you send him down to the minors.

Let him find his hitting stroke down there because the only thing he'll learn from Walker is how to hold a good poker face.

Save this kid's career, send him down there to get his head right.

There is one flaw to your scenario, there is no Major League pitching in the minors, and that is what his problem is.

MarkZ35
04-29-2011, 08:08 PM
There is one flaw to your scenario, there is no Major League pitching in the minors, and that is what his problem is.
He needs to build up confidence. All he's doing in the major leagues right now is creating more bad habits at the plate.

LoveYourSuit
04-29-2011, 08:12 PM
There is one flaw to your scenario, there is no Major League pitching in the minors, and that is what his problem is.

Right now he wouldn't be able to hit college pitching. It's all mental.

Daver
04-29-2011, 08:30 PM
Right now he wouldn't be able to hit college pitching. It's all mental.

You base this on what?

Gavin
04-29-2011, 08:35 PM
You base this on what?

Duh, the internets.

Daver
04-29-2011, 09:22 PM
Duh, the internets.

You mean he hasn't been watching swing progressions, stance changes, and approach changes?

SI1020
04-29-2011, 09:29 PM
You mean he hasn't been watching swing progressions, stance changes, and approach changes? All of those are unrecognizable compared to his playing days at Georgia. He was much more smooth, compact and efficient. I fully realize that the SEC, fine conference that it is, doesn't compare to MLB, but someone or something has messed with this young man and ruined his swing. He didn't used to remind me of Josh Fields.

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2011, 10:08 PM
Anyone else notice how awful Gordon's swing looks? I haven't seen it first hand until just recently, but Farmer/DJ have been lamenting it for a bit now. It looks so mechanical and there is a noticeable hitch. He has no chance on a decent fastball right now.

Of late, his swing has looked a lot longer. To me it has the apperence of a guy who is trying to raise his average 100 points with one at bat. We rushed him up here and I fear we might have ruined his career.