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Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 02:23 PM
This has been rumoured before. Now some documents bring it up again.

I think it was Bill James who wrote a piece with the byline something like, "Eight Men Out?...Try 21 Men Out" discussing other instances of gambling and fixing of games in the early part of the 20th century:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/cbsports-deposition-hints-cubs-may-have-thrown-1918-world-series-20110420,0,5011431.story

Lip

g0g0
04-20-2011, 02:30 PM
Read about this a few weeks ago. Seems like a stretch as well as a witch hunt.

SI1020
04-20-2011, 02:44 PM
Gambling was a real problem in the game back then. There was a lot going on that has not come to light yet, and I'm in now way damning the 1918 Cubs. I'm still trying to figure out what really happened the following year. If there is such a thing as an objective truth, this book comes closest compared to anything else I've read on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Burying-Black-Sox-Baseballs-Succeeded/dp/1574889729

BringBackBlkJack
04-20-2011, 03:08 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bbo_cubs1918_world_series

This article appears to be provoked by a recently-released court deposition by the Chicago History Museum. I have never heard of this accusation before. Can anyone with a deeper knowledge of this era shed any light on this claim?

eriqjaffe
04-20-2011, 03:15 PM
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that gambling was rampant througout baseball in the early part of the 20th century. Hal Chase has a whole chapter dedicated to him in "The Fix Is In (http://books.google.com/books?id=lOjvggO19joC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:0786419202&hl=en&ei=gT6vTbzfBI-00QGj9fW0Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)". The Cubs, or anybody else for that matter, being involved in a fix shouldn't surprise anyone. The 1919 Sox were just the ones that got caught and took the fall.

C-Dawg
04-20-2011, 03:16 PM
"The Black Cubs"!!!

Southsider101
04-20-2011, 04:18 PM
When the main source is Ed Cicotte, I'm pretty skeptical.

Soxman24
04-20-2011, 04:23 PM
I don't know a whole lot about the 1918 series, but I do know the Cubs got caught throwing a meaningless regular season game in 1920.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Reading the story Sean Devany who wrote a book on the 1918 series listed three or four suspicious plays in the games that could have been fixed.

Given how prevelent gambling was during that time it's not totally out of the question.

Lip

DrCrawdad
04-20-2011, 10:13 PM
Check out the picture (http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2011-04/61037007.jpg) in the story. The tag/description below the photo says:

Cubs owner Charles Weeghman and manager Fred Mitchell pose at Wrigley Field during the pennant-winning 1918 season.

That's clearly Comiskey Park. The Cubbies played their 1918 home World Series games at Comiskey Park (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN191809050.shtml), not as the tag/description says on the Tribune website.

Another thing, given the bunting and what they're wearing I'd say the photo was taken during the World Series, not as the description says "during the pennant-winning 1918 season."

Johnny Mostil
04-20-2011, 10:28 PM
Reading the story Sean Devany who wrote a book on the 1918 series listed three or four suspicious plays in the games that could have been fixed.

Given how prevelent gambling was during that time it's not totally out of the question.

Lip

This, from the original link, would hardly surprise me:

"They wanted to make it all about the Black Sox and say, 'OK, gambling's gone."'

TommyJohn
04-21-2011, 07:16 AM
OMG! Like, 1918? That was what, like, 100 years ago? *sneer* You Sox fans just seriously need to stop living in the past! It's over! Move on in life!

Besides, you're just jealous that the 1919 Black Sox were the greatest of all fixes. *sneer* That is why I am a Cubbie Cubbie Cubbie fan-because I'd never root for a team that fixed the World Series like, 100 years ago.

g0g0
04-21-2011, 08:27 AM
OMG! Like, 1918? That was what, like, 100 years ago? *sneer* You Sox fans just seriously need to stop living in the past! It's over! Move on in life!

Besides, you're just jealous that the 1919 Black Sox were the greatest of all fixes. *sneer* That is why I am a Cubbie Cubbie Cubbie fan-because I'd never root for a team that fixed the World Series like, 100 years ago.

I don't think that's it at all. This has been brought up before like 5 years ago. I'm sure the author is loving the attention as he'll see increased book sales. Even the article points out that the team played great:

"So did the Cubs throw the Series? No great hitter suddenly forgot how to hit, and the Cubs pitchers were terrific, finishing the Series with an astonishing 1.04 ERA."

Their biggest 'conspiracy' cited was Flack being picked off twice? :rolleyes:

I would be more ashamed of Sammy than this if true. The guys were pissed off about not getting paid squat? Fine.

Fenway
04-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Alan Wood wrote about the possible fix in 2001

http://www.1918redsox.com/

Paul Shannon wrote a game story in the old Boston Post where he said "The Cubs seem to be treating these contests as a meaningless exhibition instead of playing for the championship of the world."

doublem23
04-21-2011, 10:00 AM
Paul Shannon wrote a game story in the old Boston Post where he said "The Cubs seem to be treating these contests as a meaningless exhibition instead of playing for the championship of the world."

Frankly, that's what some fans here would say if the Sox ever lost a World Series game.

Fenway
04-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Frankly, that's what some fans here would say if the Sox ever lost a World Series game.

There well may be other Series that were tainted...

Gambling was huge on baseball back then. Rothstein left little to chance in that era..historians in Boston are convinced he had Silk Sullivan murdered as the man vanished without a trace leaving behind a huge estate out near where Gillette Stadium is today.

Madvora
04-21-2011, 10:15 AM
There is a sentence in 8 Men Out that says something about the Sox getting the idea from the previous year's World Series. I don't have the exact quote, but this came up in a thread a few month ago too.
The book was published in 1963. This information has been out there.

TommyJohn
04-21-2011, 12:24 PM
I don't think that's it at all. This has been brought up before like 5 years ago. I'm sure the author is loving the attention as he'll see increased book sales. Even the article points out that the team played great:

"So did the Cubs throw the Series? No great hitter suddenly forgot how to hit, and the Cubs pitchers were terrific, finishing the Series with an astonishing 1.04 ERA."

Their biggest 'conspiracy' cited was Flack being picked off twice? :rolleyes:

I would be more ashamed of Sammy than this if true. The guys were pissed off about not getting paid squat? Fine.


I'm just poking fun at Cub fan attitudes that we have encountered for the past several years-"2005? Quit living in the past" and "Your team fixed the World Series in 1919 and are disgraced forever."

There was a reference to a possible 1918 fix as far back as 1965. Bill Veeck included excerpts from Harry Grabiner's diary in The Hustler's Handbook and one of the entries noted that a Cub pitcher named gene Packard was a "1918 Series fixer." So maybe Flack getting picked off twice is weak evidence, but it seems that contemporaneous baseball higher ups knew or suspected that something was up with those games.

And I don't see any reason to feel shame. That happened nearly 100 years ago, all the participants are long dead.

Nellie_Fox
04-21-2011, 01:13 PM
And I don't see any reason to feel shame. That happened nearly 100 years ago, all the participants are long dead.Even I barely remember it! :geezer:

Moses_Scurry
04-21-2011, 01:50 PM
So in addition to the Red Sox 2004, 2007 World Series's being tainted (Manny/Big Papi), their 1918 Series was tainted too?!?

I guess that means that Boston has gone since 1916 for untainted champtionships ... maybe.

EnglishChiSox
04-21-2011, 01:51 PM
Even I barely remember it! :geezer:

Simpler times for sure. I don't feel ashamed of the Black Sox, if anything they helped make it a players game

Thome25
04-21-2011, 09:01 PM
Read about this a few weeks ago. Seems like a stretch as well as a witch hunt.


Spoken like a true Cubs fan....:rolleyes:

soltrain21
04-21-2011, 11:19 PM
Spoken like a true Cubs fan....:rolleyes:

Oh eyeroll yourself. He is one of the better posters here.

GoGoCrede
04-22-2011, 12:01 AM
Spoken like a true Cubs fan....:rolleyes:

Come on. He is a nice guy.

g0g0
04-22-2011, 04:02 PM
Spoken like a true Cubs fan....:rolleyes:

I always try and be as objective as possible. If it was switched around I would day the same thing. Like I said, I have more of a problem being associated with Sammy than something like this.

Oh eyeroll yourself. He is one of the better posters here.

Come on. He is a nice guy.

Thanks :smile:

Dan H
04-22-2011, 06:28 PM
OMG! Like, 1918? That was what, like, 100 years ago? *sneer* You Sox fans just seriously need to stop living in the past! It's over! Move on in life!

Besides, you're just jealous that the 1919 Black Sox were the greatest of all fixes. *sneer* That is why I am a Cubbie Cubbie Cubbie fan-because I'd never root for a team that fixed the World Series like, 100 years ago.

Just because something happened a long time ago doesn't mean it is not important. History should never be forgotten. We need to remember what can happen to a sport once something like this happens.

fram40
04-23-2011, 03:02 PM
Check out the picture (http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2011-04/61037007.jpg) in the story. The tag/description below the photo says:



That's clearly Comiskey Park. The Cubbies played their 1918 home World Series games at Comiskey Park (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN191809050.shtml), not as the tag/description says on the Tribune website.

Another thing, given the bunting and what they're wearing I'd say the photo was taken during the World Series, not as the description says "during the pennant-winning 1918 season."

I am shocked - shocked! - to find inaccuracies in the Tribune. Especially in a stroy about the Sox and Cubs

DrCrawdad
04-29-2011, 02:29 PM
I am shocked - shocked! - to find inaccuracies in the Tribune. Especially in a stroy about the Sox and Cubs

This is very interesting. I posted a comment on the Cubune story about how the caption was wrong and that it was clearly Comiskey Park. How does the Cubune respond? Correct the caption?

Check it out. They cropped out the arched windows and cropped out the bunting. Reworded the caption but it still says its Wrigley Field. The picture was clearly Comiskey Park, be honest Cubune!

Note too that the Cubbies did not play at Wrigley until 1927. In 1918 it was called Weegham.

fram40
05-14-2011, 11:54 AM
This is very interesting. I posted a comment on the Cubune story about how the caption was wrong and that it was clearly Comiskey Park. How does the Cubune respond? Correct the caption?

Check it out. They cropped out the arched windows and cropped out the bunting. Reworded the caption but it still says its Wrigley Field. The picture was clearly Comiskey Park, be honest Cubune!

Note too that the Cubbies did not play at Wrigley until 1927. In 1918 it was called Weegham.

seriously? wow.

Their lack of objectivity and the absence of any evidence of journalistic standards is why I haven't bought their paper in twenty five years. And why I probably won't buy it ever again.

Fenway
05-15-2011, 03:35 PM
Looks like the 1918 'fix' will be in the news as the Flubbies return to Fenway for the first time since 1918. NY Times has a major article on it today...

One interesting thing I did not know....race tracks were closed down because of WWI and the money had to go somewhere.

Also most believed that the 1919 season would NOT be played because of the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/sports/baseball/a-year-before-the-black-sox-whiff-of-scandal-wafts-over-1918-world-series.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/15/sports/series4-tear/series4-tear-popup.jpg