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ohiosoxfan
04-19-2011, 09:15 AM
I have always been a big supporter of Ozzie, but I'm getting to the point where I think it might finally be time to see what new leadership would do. I would hate to see this "all in" team and $125M commitment go to waste. Very tired of listless efforts- hard to believe this team would look so bored 15 games into the season. Would a new manager change this? Might be worth finding out before its too late.

SoxFan78
04-19-2011, 09:21 AM
Ozzie isn't batting, Ozzie isn't pitching, Ozzie isn't fielding, Ozzie isn't the one making errors.

They are in a bad stretch right now, but the season is only 16 games old right now!

Yes Ozzie has made some questionable calls but were people calling for his head when the Sox were 6-3 after their first 3 series?

The players have got the Sox in a funk right now, not Ozzie.

SephClone89
04-19-2011, 09:25 AM
Yes Ozzie has made some questionable calls but were people calling for his head when the Sox were 6-3 after their first 3 series?


Yes.

asindc
04-19-2011, 09:29 AM
Ozzie isn't batting, Ozzie isn't pitching, Ozzie isn't fielding, Ozzie isn't the one making errors.

They are in a bad stretch right now, but the season is only 16 games old right now!

Yes Ozzie has made some questionable calls but were people calling for his head when the Sox were 6-3 after their first 3 series?

The players have got the Sox in a funk right now, not Ozzie.

Yes.

Yes, pretty much the same people calling for his head during and after the 2008 season.

ohiosoxfan
04-19-2011, 09:31 AM
Yes, I realize he isn't out on the field performing individual skills, but one part of managing is motivation, and I wonder if Ozzie's "act" has worn thin and has not impact on the team anymore, especially since we have several players who have been here for a while. Sometimes it seems a change at the top makes a big difference in the on-field performance.

Viva Medias B's
04-19-2011, 09:37 AM
As frustrating as this is, it's way too early to call for Ozzie's head.

Sargeant79
04-19-2011, 09:42 AM
I have always been a big supporter of Ozzie, but I'm getting to the point where I think it might finally be time to see what new leadership would do. I would hate to see this "all in" team and $125M commitment go to waste. Very tired of listless efforts- hard to believe this team would look so bored 15 games into the season. Would a new manager change this? Might be worth finding out before its too late.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit here.

SI1020
04-19-2011, 09:44 AM
Ozzie isn't batting, Ozzie isn't pitching, Ozzie isn't fielding, Ozzie isn't the one making errors.

They are in a bad stretch right now, but the season is only 16 games old right now!

Yes Ozzie has made some questionable calls but were people calling for his head when the Sox were 6-3 after their first 3 series?

The players have got the Sox in a funk right now, not Ozzie. I really have trouble with this. Why even have a manager then? Let the players manage themselves.

russ99
04-19-2011, 09:45 AM
7-9 with 3 losses in the last 4 against some of the best starters in the AL, and people calling for Ozzie's job?

I guess people flying off the handle and the finger-pointing that goes with it is norm around here, but this is ridiculous.

I expect the Sox to do much better against Shields, Davis and Niemann the next 3 days.

ohiosoxfan
04-19-2011, 09:47 AM
I "expected" them to do a lot better against Chatwood, too.

SI1020
04-19-2011, 09:49 AM
7-9 with 3 losses in the last 4 against some of the best starters in the AL, and people calling for Ozzie's job?

I guess people flying off the handle and the finger-pointing that goes with it is norm around here, but this is ridiculous.

I expect the Sox to do much better against Shields, Davis and Niemann the next 3 days. It's more than that russ. Since mid 06 the team is just not that great, with the same problems year in and year out despite changes in personnel. Additionally Ozzie has just worn very thin on some of us for a variety of baseball and personal reasons.

sox1970
04-19-2011, 09:57 AM
I don't think there will be any GM or manager change during the season, no matter what happens.

Now if they don't make the playoffs, something will happen. Kenny should get fired, but he may quit. The Marlins could still be after Ozzie to open the new stadium as their manager.

Something has got to give if they don't make the playoffs in this year of "all-in".

russ99
04-19-2011, 09:58 AM
It's more than that russ. Since mid 06 the team is just not that great, with the same problems year in and year out despite changes in personnel. Additionally Ozzie has just worn very thin on some of us for a variety of baseball and personal reasons.

3 weeks into the season is too early to judge if this team is "not that great".

Frankly, I'm tired of trying to be a voice for patience here, when it seems that the angry mob has been let loose, and after every game someone on the club or staff has to be torn down and mocked.

It's a long season and teams have streaks and slumps. Fact is, despite the struggles, this team still has potential, and most teams (even other "contenders" like the Red Sox) need to work through their issues. A month from now, things can be completely different.

soltrain21
04-19-2011, 10:01 AM
3 weeks into the season is too early to judge if this team is "not that great".

Frankly, I'm tired of trying to be a voice for patience here, when it seems that the angry mob has been let loose, and after every game someone on the club or staff has to be torn down and mocked.

It's a long season and teams have streaks and slumps. Fact is, despite the struggles, this team still has potential, and most teams (even other "contenders" like the Red Sox) need to work through their issues. A month from now, things can be completely different.

Voice of patience? Each year doesn't get a reset button. This team has been underachieving since 2006 and needed a miracle to make the playoffs in 08.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-19-2011, 10:02 AM
It's more than that russ. Since mid 06 the team is just not that great, with the same problems year in and year out despite changes in personnel. Additionally Ozzie has just worn very thin on some of us for a variety of baseball and personal reasons.

To be honest, when the team plays like this the entire White Sox product wears thin on me. From the tough talking GM that has regressed into trying to outspend his mistakes to the annoying announcer with yet another stupid catch phrase ("don't stop now boys"). The douchey egotistical manager with questionable game management skills is at the forefront. So for me at least, a new manager would be most welcome.

Jerko
04-19-2011, 10:10 AM
I'm also getting sick of the whole "Indians really suck and we're still ahead of the Twins" bull**** too. I still think the team will right itself but they're September-hard to watch right now.

Tragg
04-19-2011, 10:20 AM
One could make a similar argument on williams...his best recent trades have simply been nonproductive.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-19-2011, 10:38 AM
I think the White Sox FO needs a change. That is all I have to say.

PaleHoser
04-19-2011, 10:52 AM
I've seen this before. My team opened the season the same way last year. Tired, listless, lacking.

Then they went on a six week tear that saved the season and a few jobs in the process. Then they went back to sleep after the All-Star Game. Throw that six week stretch out and last year would have been 75-87.

The point made about Ozzie not playing the game is valid. However, he sets the environment in the clubhouse, on the bench and on the field.

Cito Gaston was a candidate before Ozzie was hired. He did much more with less in Toronto the last two years than Ozzie has since the World Series. Pull the plug already...

geofitz
04-19-2011, 11:01 AM
If Ozzie gets the "hook" I don't think he will land in Miami to open up the new stadium in 2012. Luria is too cheap. Won't spend the $$$ for players--let alone a manager.

102605
04-19-2011, 11:01 AM
Long live Ozzie Guillen

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-19-2011, 11:07 AM
I've seen this before. My team opened the season the same way last year. Tired, listless, lacking.

Then they went on a six week tear that saved the season and a few jobs in the process. Then they went back to sleep after the All-Star Game. Throw that six week stretch out and last year would have been 75-87.

The point made about Ozzie not playing the game is valid. However, he sets the environment in the clubhouse, on the bench and on the field.

Cito Gaston was a candidate before Ozzie was hired. He did much more with less in Toronto the last two years than Ozzie has since the World Series. Pull the plug already...

Thank you for someone saying that while a manager or coach does not play, he does set a tone for the team. Sometimes fresh faces are what are needed.

Bobby Thigpen
04-19-2011, 11:13 AM
I've seen this before. My team opened the season the same way last year. Tired, listless, lacking.

Then they went on a six week tear that saved the season and a few jobs in the process. Then they went back to sleep after the All-Star Game. Throw that six week stretch out and last year would have been 75-87.

The point made about Ozzie not playing the game is valid. However, he sets the environment in the clubhouse, on the bench and on the field.

Cito Gaston was a candidate before Ozzie was hired. He did much more with less in Toronto the last two years than Ozzie has since the World Series. Pull the plug already...
Ya, and you throw out a week here or there in 05 and they don't make the playoffs.

You can't cherry pick whatever stats you want.

BainesHOF
04-19-2011, 11:26 AM
Of course the players are to blame. That doesn't take Ozzie off the hook. Since 2005, his teams have played erratically and underachieved. He regularly makes stupid moves, especially when it comes to pitching. His teams are usually poor when it comes to executing the fundamentals.

Plus he has a big mouth. He has been an embarrassment off the field from his immature family garbage to his slurs to his disrespect of Nancy Faust. Ozzie has no class.

Beyond that, Ozzie has helped the organization fail to take advantage of a huge post-2005 opportunity. While the Cubs have been mired in their usual losing ways, the time was right for the Sox to truly take over this town. Instead, we've have our own share of problems. The lack of results in a mediocre division over the years speaks for itself.

The organization probably needs a good housecleaning, especially when you look at the continued woeful state of the farm system. After the Chairman did his share this year and approved a payroll of $125 million, it's been sickening to see the optimism about this team disappear so quickly. The amount of bad baseball we've seen already has been staggering. Ozzie has "managed" this mess. He should be the first to go.

SI1020
04-19-2011, 11:46 AM
3 weeks into the season is too early to judge if this team is "not that great".

Frankly, I'm tired of trying to be a voice for patience here, when it seems that the angry mob has been let loose, and after every game someone on the club or staff has to be torn down and mocked.

It's a long season and teams have streaks and slumps. Fact is, despite the struggles, this team still has potential, and most teams (even other "contenders" like the Red Sox) need to work through their issues. A month from now, things can be completely different. Hey russ remember me? I'm the one that told you to hang in there last year. Even in the best of times the fur is going to fly on a site such as this. I hope you are right about the team this year. As for me, I'm just tired of the current regime.

Noneck
04-19-2011, 11:49 AM
The thing that has always baffled me is Reinsdorfs love for Ozwaldo. Oz is a foul mouthed classless individual. Why does this appeal to JR? If Ozwaldo was a great manager, I guess this could be overlooked but he is not a great manager. The Sox have been trying to make their team a family orientated team and Ozzie sure doesnt fit into that. The team gets class players and has Oz at the helm of a bunch of choir boys, It just never made sense to me.

SI1020
04-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Of course the players are to blame. That doesn't take Ozzie off the hook. Since 2005, his teams have played erratically and underachieved. He regularly makes stupid moves, especially when it comes to pitching. His teams are usually poor when it comes to executing the fundamentals.

Plus he has a big mouth. He has been an embarrassment off the field from his immature family garbage to his slurs to his disrespect of Nancy Faust. Ozzie has no class.

Beyond that, Ozzie has helped the organization fail to take advantage of a huge post-2005 opportunity. While the Cubs have been mired in their usual losing ways, the time was right for the Sox to truly take over this town. Instead, we've have our own share of problems. The lack of results in a mediocre division over the years speaks for itself.

The organization probably needs a good housecleaning, especially when you look at the continued woeful state of the farm system. After the Chairman did his share this year and approved a payroll of $125 million, it's been sickening to see the optimism about this team disappear so quickly. The amount of bad baseball we've seen already has been staggering. Ozzie has "managed" this mess. He should be the first to go. Excellent.

Moses_Scurry
04-19-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't think the 7-9 start has changed anybody's mind. There is a large group that wants Ozzie and/or Kenny gone, and that has been the case pretty much since the end of 2006 with the group getting a little bigger each year. People on the "Fire Ozzie/Kenny" wagon don't tend to move off it even when the Sox are doing well. There are also the people that want Ozzie and/or Kenny to stay (I'm currently in this group). I think you would have gotten the same response to this question if you asked it on opening day as now.

In 2 or 3 months the responses will probably be similar if the Sox are doing well and different if they are not doing well, because some people on the "keep Ozzie/Kenny" wagon will jump if they are stinking up the joint.

Rocky Soprano
04-19-2011, 12:09 PM
Of course the players are to blame. That doesn't take Ozzie off the hook. Since 2005, his teams have played erratically and underachieved. He regularly makes stupid moves, especially when it comes to pitching. His teams are usually poor when it comes to executing the fundamentals.

Plus he has a big mouth. He has been an embarrassment off the field from his immature family garbage to his slurs to his disrespect of Nancy Faust. Ozzie has no class.

Beyond that, Ozzie has helped the organization fail to take advantage of a huge post-2005 opportunity. While the Cubs have been mired in their usual losing ways, the time was right for the Sox to truly take over this town. Instead, we've have our own share of problems. The lack of results in a mediocre division over the years speaks for itself.

The organization probably needs a good housecleaning, especially when you look at the continued woeful state of the farm system. After the Chairman did his share this year and approved a payroll of $125 million, it's been sickening to see the optimism about this team disappear so quickly. The amount of bad baseball we've seen already has been staggering. Ozzie has "managed" this mess. He should be the first to go.

Excellent post.
When things are going great people can't stop praising Ozzie, yet when things are bad it is NEVER Ozzie's doing.

Moses_Scurry
04-19-2011, 12:10 PM
The thing that has always baffled me is Reinsdorfs love for Ozwaldo. Oz is a foul mouthed classless individual. Why does this appeal to JR? If Ozwaldo was a great manager, I guess this could be overlooked but he is not a great manager. The Sox have been trying to make their team a family orientated team and Ozzie sure doesnt fit into that. The team gets class players and has Oz at the helm of a bunch of choir boys, It just never made sense to me.

The fact that the JR preferred keeping Jerry Krause to Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen should make this not a big surprise to you.

Lip Man 1
04-19-2011, 12:15 PM
Naturally nothing will happen now and I seriously doubt anything will happen this season (unless something disasterous takes place like being 15 under by the middle of June) but if this season doesn't go well, I can see something take place in the off season regarding either Kenny or Ozzie.

And the reason would be that more than likely if this were to turn into a bad season, the Sox would probably "rebuild" and I don't know if that is either Kenny's or Ozzie's cup of tea.

I could see one of them, maybe both, resign. They won't get fired unless they do something illegal.

The bond between JR and them is simply to strong.

Lip

delben91
04-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Of course the players are to blame. That doesn't take Ozzie off the hook. Since 2005, his teams have played erratically and underachieved. He regularly makes stupid moves, especially when it comes to pitching. His teams are usually poor when it comes to executing the fundamentals.

Plus he has a big mouth. He has been an embarrassment off the field from his immature family garbage to his slurs to his disrespect of Nancy Faust. Ozzie has no class.

Beyond that, Ozzie has helped the organization fail to take advantage of a huge post-2005 opportunity. While the Cubs have been mired in their usual losing ways, the time was right for the Sox to truly take over this town. Instead, we've have our own share of problems. The lack of results in a mediocre division over the years speaks for itself.

The organization probably needs a good housecleaning, especially when you look at the continued woeful state of the farm system. After the Chairman did his share this year and approved a payroll of $125 million, it's been sickening to see the optimism about this team disappear so quickly. The amount of bad baseball we've seen already has been staggering. Ozzie has "managed" this mess. He should be the first to go.

I'm neither a fervent supporter of Ozzie nor am I calling for his head. I think there are somethings he does well and some that he clearly doesn't. Would a change in the manager and coaching staff be helpful? Maybe. Is the time to do it 2 weeks into the season? Probably not. Who're you gonna get? The same guys that got passed over for every open managerial slot this off-season. No thanks.

That said, the bold sentence really struck me. I get on the emotional roller-coaster with this team as much as the next guy. Really low to the point of almost not caring on losing streaks such as this one. That said, at the 2 week mark, is everyone really convinced the team has zero chance to get any better? That the 6-3 start was the anamoly and this past week the norm? I know I don't know for certain. It could be either or something in between.

For those that are so certain, what makes you so certain that the team will continue to be this bad, consistently, for the next 6 months? Why is there zero chance for improvement?

EDIT: Post #5000, at least I made it on something substantive...

Noneck
04-19-2011, 12:23 PM
The fact that the JR preferred keeping Jerry Krause to Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen should make this not a big surprise to you.

I always thought that was a money thing.

LITTLE NELL
04-19-2011, 12:28 PM
After all the BS and drama last year with Ozzie and his son he should have been shown the door.

downstairs
04-19-2011, 12:32 PM
So you're basically suggesting they fire Ozzie because our starters can't go 9 innings every single day?

TomBradley72
04-19-2011, 12:33 PM
I'd use Memorial Day weekend as the milestone.

Overall- Ozzie is now in this 8th season as manager- for ANY manager that's a long tenure and at some point a new voice is needed.

I have never advocated for his dismissal- but I think he has done a horse**** job so far this year.


It up to the manager to develop an effective way to utilize Crain/Santos/Thornton/Sale- up until now his approach has been both chaotic and ineffective- there's enough talent in that group to have a decent bullpen.
Poorly timed decisions to bunt- I'll go all the way back to game 3 vs. Cleveland- Wsox are rallying, pitcher on ropes, calls for the bunt with Ramirez- similar to this past Sunday with AJ- his in game tactics are failing- and its not second guessing they are questionable at the time he makes the decision.
Using Dunn in the #3 slot- that's alot of 1st innings that will end in a strike out or DP.
Embarassing press conferences- thrashing around like a baby- it's getting very old.

Everything runs its course- including his tenure as manager if this doesn't get turned around over the next few weeks.

As far as KW goes- he has made some brilliant moves in building this roster (Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Ramirez, drafting Beckham/Sale, etc.).

But the last 2 years- it's been more "general management by checkbook" with $45M+ dollars going to Rios, Peavy, Dunn- with only 1 of the 3 moves working out so far (yes- it's early with Dunn- but a year after you let Thome go based on a new DH strategy- you've spent $2M on Kotsay, $4M on Ramirez and $15M on Dunn as KW quickly changed course).

Organizations are often a reflection of their leadership-the inconsistency of the White Sox from 2006-2011 is a direct reflection on OG and KW.

Nellie_Fox
04-19-2011, 12:34 PM
Each year doesn't get a reset button.Actually, it kinda does. Win, and pretty much all is forgiven.

asindc
04-19-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm neither a fervent supporter of Ozzie nor am I calling for his head. I think there are somethings he does well and some that he clearly doesn't. Would a change in the manager and coaching staff be helpful? Maybe. Is the time to do it 2 weeks into the season? Probably not. Who're you gonna get? The same guys that got passed over for every open managerial slot this off-season. No thanks.

That said, the bold sentence really struck me. I get on the emotional roller-coaster with this team as much as the next guy. Really low to the point of almost not caring on losing streaks such as this one. That said, at the 2 week mark, is everyone really convinced the team has zero chance to get any better? That the 6-3 start was the anamoly and this past week the norm? I know I don't know for certain. It could be either or something in between.

For those that are so certain, what makes you so certain that the team will continue to be this bad, consistently, for the next 6 months? Why is there zero chance for improvement?

I would also like to have this question answered.

asindc
04-19-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm neither a fervent supporter of Ozzie nor am I calling for his head. I think there are somethings he does well and some that he clearly doesn't. Would a change in the manager and coaching staff be helpful? Maybe. Is the time to do it 2 weeks into the season? Probably not. Who're you gonna get? The same guys that got passed over for every open managerial slot this off-season. No thanks.

That said, the bold sentence really struck me. I get on the emotional roller-coaster with this team as much as the next guy. Really low to the point of almost not caring on losing streaks such as this one. That said, at the 2 week mark, is everyone really convinced the team has zero chance to get any better? That the 6-3 start was the anamoly and this past week the norm? I know I don't know for certain. It could be either or something in between.

For those that are so certain, what makes you so certain that the team will continue to be this bad, consistently, for the next 6 months? Why is there zero chance for improvement?

... and also this question.

Rocky Soprano
04-19-2011, 12:49 PM
So you're basically suggesting they fire Ozzie because our starters can't go 9 innings every single day?

:?::scratch:

guillensdisciple
04-19-2011, 12:57 PM
7-9 with 3 losses in the last 4 against some of the best starters in the AL, and people calling for Ozzie's job?

I guess people flying off the handle and the finger-pointing that goes with it is norm around here, but this is ridiculous.

I expect the Sox to do much better against Shields, Davis and Niemann the next 3 days.

Screw that then, this excuse is horrible. Who do you think we face in the playoffs? Fourth and Fifth starters all the time? Then there is no point of even thinking about championships or playoffs or this dumb ****ing all in slogan the white sox are campaigning. If you can't beat the big boys, and just continue to tip your cap to them, then you might as well field a team of young guys and build the organizational depth. Otherwise you just have a bunch of idiots acting like they will do something important with their lives and when it comes down to it this will just be a glorified mediocre 125 millions dollar ball club.

If this trend continues, then this team should definitely be blown up.

Over By There
04-19-2011, 01:01 PM
Excellent post.
When things are going great people can't stop praising Ozzie, yet when things are bad it is NEVER Ozzie's doing.

I could not disagree more. In fact, I believe the exact opposite is true. Here is why: I'd bet my next paycheck that if you analyze the WSI postgame threads from the last few years, you'd find that the threads from losses average way more posts than those from wins. And if you analyze the content, the loss postgame threads beat the constant "fire Ozzie" drum. Meanwhile, in the less crowded threads from wins, I think you'd be challenged to find people crediting Ozzie for anything. Although the unbridled vitriol around here after every loss bugs me, I understand people lashing out at Ozzie because he is the easiest target. However, to argue that there are a whole bunch of Ozzie supporters that are as vocal as the detractors is laughable.

FWIW, I'm on the fence. I think the Sox are due for a bit of a shakeup, but think doing something after 15 games or so is ridiculous.

guillensdisciple
04-19-2011, 01:02 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8422


am I the only one in this fan base that is seeing this kid go through the same thing he went through last year? Am i the only one that has not fallen into a man crush over a kid who has not done much to earn the praise Hawk and the majority of the fans throw at him? People call him the future of this Sox organization, and no offense to people, his stat lines show exactly where this organization is going with such a great leader. Maybe we should stop being blinded by the hype and look into his crappy production to realize maybe he is not such hot **** or maybe that hitting coach really did ruin a great player.

SlowMotion
04-19-2011, 01:04 PM
To be honest, when the team plays like this the entire White Sox product wears thin on me. From the tough talking GM that has regressed into trying to outspend his mistakes to the annoying announcer with yet another stupid catch phrase ("don't stop now boys"). The douchey egotistical manager with questionable game management skills is at the forefront. So for me at least, a new manager would be most welcome.

This ^

It is really hard for me to stay excited about this team during times like this. There is just so much bs up and down this organization it really does wear on you. The promise of a few years of a healthy Peavy down the tubes, Ozzies stupid managerial and p.r. antics and the dreadful Hawk Harrelson.

I'm so ready for a house cleaning. From Hawk to Ozzie to Mark Teahen. But I will gladly settle for even just one of those for right now. Makes me sad that I'd rather listen to announcers from other cities than the one from my home town. I can endure the stupid "don't stop now boys" etc I guess, but he seems lifeless when he isn't uttering one of those silly phrases.

I can endure a bad bullpen, or hopefully just a rough patch in the bullpen, but what I can't stand is a manager that continually says and does the wrong things and players that seem to continually buckle under pressure. Part of the reason for the Rays recent surge is because of Maddon and the way he carries himself and prepares his team. That team is a good deal less talented than the White Sox, and we all know it, and that's why this recent slump just sucks so bad.

WhiteSox5187
04-19-2011, 01:09 PM
First off it's too early to fire anybody. Yea this team sucks right now, but they could it turn it around today and win the next three and then take two out of three from Detroit and suddenly we're in good shape.

But if we don't make the playoffs, Ozzie should absolutely be gone and not only should Ozzie be gone, but so should Kenny. I am always a bit surprised that when people are pointing out the flaws of this team and how Ozzie handles it, the guy who has built the teams for the past ten years doesn't get any blame. Kenny is as responsible for the Sox under performance since 2005 as Ozzie is, maybe more so.

guillensdisciple
04-19-2011, 01:09 PM
:welcome:This ^

It is really hard for me to stay excited about this team during times like this. There is just so much bs up and down this organization it really does wear on you. The promise of a few years of a healthy Peavy down the tubes, Ozzies stupid managerial and p.r. antics and the dreadful Hawk Harrelson.

I'm so ready for a house cleaning. From Hawk to Ozzie to Mark Teahen. But I will gladly settle for even just one of those for right now. Makes me sad that I'd rather listen to announcers from other cities than the one from my home town. I can endure the stupid "don't stop now boys" etc I guess, but he seems lifeless when he isn't uttering one of those stupid phrases.

I can endure a bad bullpen, or hopefully just a rough patch in the bullpen, but what I can't stand is a manager that continually says and does the wrong things and players that seem to continually buckle under pressure. Part of the reason for the Rays recent surge is because of Maddon and the way he carries himself and prepares his team. That team is a good deal less talented than the White Sox, and we all know it, and that's why this recent slump just sucks so bad.

asindc
04-19-2011, 01:11 PM
I could not disagree more. In fact, I believe the exact opposite is true. Here is why: I'd bet my next paycheck that if you analyze the WSI postgame threads from the last few years, you'd find that the threads from losses average way more posts than those from wins. And if you analyze the content, the loss postgame threads beat the constant "fire Ozzie" drum. Meanwhile, in the less crowded threads from wins, I think you'd be challenged to find people crediting Ozzie for anything. Although the unbridled vitriol around here after every loss bugs me, I understand people lashing out at Ozzie because he is the easiest target. However, to argue that there are a whole bunch of Ozzie supporters that are as vocal as the detractors is laughable.

FWIW, I'm on the fence. I think the Sox are due for a bit of a shakeup, but think doing something after 15 games or so is ridiculous.

You don't get it. Your insistence on patience and non-willingness to call for someone (anyone!) to get fired is a form of praise for management. And just what have they done to earn your undying admiration? Huh? Huh?!

The Immigrant
04-19-2011, 01:13 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8422


Hot damn, that was a brutal 10-game stretch for him.

SI1020
04-19-2011, 01:15 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8422


am I the only one in this fan base that is seeing this kid go through the same thing he went through last year? Am i the only one that has not fallen into a man crush over a kid who has not done much to earn the praise Hawk and the majority of the fans throw at him? People call him the future of this Sox organization, and no offense to people, his stat lines show exactly where this organization is going with such a great leader. Maybe we should stop being blinded by the hype and look into his crappy production to realize maybe he is not such hot **** or maybe that hitting coach really did ruin a great player. To think this kid might be a major bust is enough to make one scream. He appears to have all of the tools to make a nice career, but he is clearly floundering.

SlowMotion
04-19-2011, 01:15 PM
:welcome:
Thanks! :smile:

doublem23
04-19-2011, 01:27 PM
I actually thought Ozzie did a pretty OK job last year, that team had some issues and Ozzie steared them to nearly 90 wins and kept them in the race for most of the year. I mean, what is a guy to do when you have to start Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel every day? The 2010 team fell apart because the bullpen fell apart, but that was just one of those "tough luck" deals, the Sox had a very underused bullpen, that's just the kind of stuff that happens when 2 of your 3 best arms are known injury risks.

So I'm willing to ride it out another year, but already, less than 3 weeks into the 2011 season and Ozzie is driving me crazy with these nutty decisions to pull starters or the way he's using the bullpen or this ridiculous amount of bunting... Add that I really, really, really dislike his spoiled brat kids and if the Sox don't make the postseason, I'm totally done with him. I think KW gave him ample talent to work with, so barring a catastrophic number of injuries, this team better end up winning 95 games and win the division.

SlowMotion
04-19-2011, 01:37 PM
I actually thought Ozzie did a pretty OK job last year, that team had some issues and Ozzie steared them to nearly 90 wins and kept them in the race for most of the year. I mean, what is a guy to do when you have to start Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel every day? The 2010 team fell apart because the bullpen fell apart, but that was just one of those "tough luck" deals, the Sox had a very underused bullpen, that's just the kind of stuff that happens when 2 of your 3 best arms are known injury risks.

So I'm willing to ride it out another year, but already, less than 3 weeks into the 2011 season and Ozzie is driving me crazy with these nutty decisions to pull starters or the way he's using the bullpen or this ridiculous amount of bunting... Add that I really, really, really dislike his spoiled brat kids and if the Sox don't make the postseason, I'm totally done with him. I think KW gave him ample talent to work with, so barring a catastrophic number of injuries, this team better end up winning 95 games and win the division.

You have a point. And one thing that surprises a lot of people when you tell them (myself included) is this team won 88 games last year. But, I really think the guys did that in spite of Ozzie. They just scrapped and scraped and that great run in interleague play really boosted their morale and record. Ozzie was doing a lot of questionable bunting and leaving in starters too long (Peavy especially) or pulling them too early all last year, too. You could say thats bias but whatever.

JC456
04-19-2011, 01:38 PM
this year just looks like the sequel to the last 4 years. The same old habits have returned and the same fundamentals still aren't in play. this team doesn't think, is unmotiviated, looks like they don't want to be there. Sequel!!!

Tragg
04-19-2011, 01:39 PM
He should have been fired when he said he couldn't find any at bats for Jim Thome on his team full off slap-hitters and lungers.
He should have been fired when he deemed Jerry Owens a ML center fielder, Erstand a "400 hitter", and DeWayne Wise "tremendous" and a leadoff hitter.
Or when he decided Sweeney, Richard and Hudson weren't ML quality ballplayers.s.....

And honestly, look at Williams' trades the last 2 seasons, and they aren't pretty.

JC456
04-19-2011, 01:40 PM
Maybe they all like going 0-2 at the plate, I don't know, but they all take some pretty damn good pitches and swing at some pretty cruddy pitches. Looks like they are all from the same book and I think that comes from.... the manager?

kufram
04-19-2011, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Over By There http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2731396#post2731396)
I could not disagree more. In fact, I believe the exact opposite is true. Here is why: I'd bet my next paycheck that if you analyze the WSI postgame threads from the last few years, you'd find that the threads from losses average way more posts than those from wins. And if you analyze the content, the loss postgame threads beat the constant "fire Ozzie" drum. Meanwhile, in the less crowded threads from wins, I think you'd be challenged to find people crediting Ozzie for anything. Although the unbridled vitriol around here after every loss bugs me, I understand people lashing out at Ozzie because he is the easiest target. However, to argue that there are a whole bunch of Ozzie supporters that are as vocal as the detractors is laughable.

FWIW, I'm on the fence. I think the Sox are due for a bit of a shakeup, but think doing something after 15 games or so is ridiculous.


You don't get it. Your insistence on patience and non-willingness to call for someone (anyone!) to get fired is a form of praise for management. And just what have they done to earn your undying admiration? Huh? Huh?!

I have to agree with the first post and I think he/she does get it. During the winning streak last year the Fire-Ozzies seemed to disappear. Taking "patience and non-willingness to call for someone (anyone!) to get fired" and turning it into "undying admiration" is a real stretch.

Obviously, all of the criticism of the team has foundation. I doubt if anyone here actually likes losing. The criticism of Ozzie also has foundation. I just think that a lot of it is blame for blame's sake. We live in a blame culture. We are due an Ozzie rant on the team pretty soon... I reckon another 2 or 3 losses may be enough... and that could wake the team up. I live in hope rather than blame. But by all means... fire Ozzie if you want. I would just like one actual positive idea of a plan on who to replace him with. It's easy to just say fire Ozzie, but give me an alternative.

I like the White Sox family. I like that PK is brought back and I like that PK wants to come back even when he could get more elsewhere. The personal loyalty between people in the organization is to be commended. There ain't a lot of it around these days. Of course there is a time when business HAS to come first and somebody HAS to go, but 15 games in? Don't be silly.

JB98
04-19-2011, 01:46 PM
There better be October baseball on the South Side this year. If not, somebody has to pay. That's the bottom line.

asindc
04-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Over By There http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2731396#post2731396)
I could not disagree more. In fact, I believe the exact opposite is true. Here is why: I'd bet my next paycheck that if you analyze the WSI postgame threads from the last few years, you'd find that the threads from losses average way more posts than those from wins. And if you analyze the content, the loss postgame threads beat the constant "fire Ozzie" drum. Meanwhile, in the less crowded threads from wins, I think you'd be challenged to find people crediting Ozzie for anything. Although the unbridled vitriol around here after every loss bugs me, I understand people lashing out at Ozzie because he is the easiest target. However, to argue that there are a whole bunch of Ozzie supporters that are as vocal as the detractors is laughable.

FWIW, I'm on the fence. I think the Sox are due for a bit of a shakeup, but think doing something after 15 games or so is ridiculous.




I have to agree with the first post and I think he/she does get it. During the winning streak last year the Fire-Ozzies seemed to disappear. Taking "patience and non-willingness to call for someone (anyone!) to get fired" and turning it into "undying admiration" is a real stretch.

Obviously, all of the criticism of the team has foundation. I doubt if anyone here actually likes losing. The criticism of Ozzie also has foundation. I just think that a lot of it is blame for blame's sake. We live in a blame culture. We are due an Ozzie rant on the team pretty soon... I reckon another 2 or 3 losses may be enough... and that could wake the team up. I live in hope rather than blame. But by all means... fire Ozzie if you want. I would just like one actual positive idea of a plan on who to replace him with. It's easy to just say fire Ozzie, but give me an alternative.

I like the White Sox family. I like that PK is brought back and I like that PK wants to come back even when he could get more elsewhere. The personal loyalty between people in the organization is to be commended. There ain't a lot of it around these days. Of course there is a time when business HAS to come first and somebody HAS to go, but 15 games in? Don't be silly.

I should have used teal.

Nelfox02
04-19-2011, 01:48 PM
its been time for a change for awhile now.....but the problem is at this point will firing Guillen really do anything? The sox have committed a lot of money to people like Rios, Dunn, Konerko, Peavy (yuck), and AJ to a lesser degree......are they really in a position to go into a rebuild mode anytime soon? Fire Guillen and replace him with whom? If Guillen gets the ax, arent they on the hook for his money next year still?

I just find Guillen to be a part of the overall problem this organization has when it comes to attitude, player development, and team building. We see the same **** every year because you have the same brain trust running this team......I think it would take years to fix the problems that plague this organization.....and likely some very ugly teams along the way......get rid of Guillen but keep KW in place? I dont think we would see that big a difference around here then.

At this point I just dont see anyway out of the swamp of mediocrity we have waded into.......that sucks. It sucks when you feel like something you care about is just going nowhere.....

Over By There
04-19-2011, 01:52 PM
You don't get it. Your insistence on patience and non-willingness to call for someone (anyone!) to get fired is a form of praise for management. And just what have they done to earn your undying admiration? Huh? Huh?!

Thanks for helping make my point - this kind of hyperbole is exactly what I was trying to address. :thumbsup:

kufram
04-19-2011, 01:58 PM
I should have used teal.


Sorry, didn't see the implied teal... should have maybe.

SCCWS
04-19-2011, 02:28 PM
It is definitely the time to fire Ozzie. There will be some great replacements available. Ron Gardenhire and Terry Francona should both be available since their teams are off to worse starts. Maybe the Sox can hire both of them in fact.

Nellie_Fox
04-19-2011, 02:32 PM
You have a point. And one thing that surprises a lot of people when you tell them (myself included) is this team won 88 games last year. But, I really think the guys did that in spite of Ozzie. They just scrapped and scraped and that great run in interleague play really boosted their morale and record. Ozzie was doing a lot of questionable bunting and leaving in starters too long (Peavy especially) or pulling them too early all last year, too. You could say thats bias but whatever.Yes. Yes I could. Lose, it's Ozzie's fault. Win, and it's in spite of him. Yeah, that sounds biased.

It is definitely the time to fire Ozzie. There will be some great replacements available. Ron Gardenhire and Terry Francona should both be available since their teams are off to worse starts. Maybe the Sox can hire both of them in fact.Great idea. Hire somebody who's doing worse. Brilliant!

TheOldRoman
04-19-2011, 02:44 PM
There better be October baseball on the South Side this year. If not, somebody has to pay. That's the bottom line.Yes, somebody has to pay if that happens. But nobody will. Just like nobody paid last year. The only way anything changes at the top is if Ozzie disparages an entire group of people again and gets fired or if Kenny gets fed up with it and quits. And despite saying this year was do or die, the Sox brilliantly decided to pick up Ozzie's 2012 option before the season, meaning there are no immediate reprocussions for this season. If this "all in" team sucks come July, you can't even fire the manager as a last gasp effort to shake things up. I am not saying the Sox are anywhere close to being done, but the the only heads rolling from a potential failed season will be all the high priced players shipped out for pennies on the dollar next offseason because the team will lose lots of money. *que dickallen15

Soxfest
04-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Williams and Guillen both need to go, the time has come for a major change.

Chez
04-19-2011, 03:23 PM
No. It's not time to make a change. Even if they lose tonight, it still won't be time to make a change . . .

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-19-2011, 03:24 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8422


am I the only one in this fan base that is seeing this kid go through the same thing he went through last year? Am i the only one that has not fallen into a man crush over a kid who has not done much to earn the praise Hawk and the majority of the fans throw at him? People call him the future of this Sox organization, and no offense to people, his stat lines show exactly where this organization is going with such a great leader. Maybe we should stop being blinded by the hype and look into his crappy production to realize maybe he is not such hot **** or maybe that hitting coach really did ruin a great player.

I didn't even look at the link and I am guessing you're talking about GB?

#1swisher
04-19-2011, 03:44 PM
Brett Ballantini lists 13 things about the White Sox.

Starts with Dunn.

http://www.csnchicago.com/04/19/11/13-things-weve-learned-about-the-White-S/landing_poetry_in_pros_v3.html?blockID=506971&feedID=9399

Hitmen77
04-19-2011, 03:51 PM
It's more than that russ. Since mid 06 the team is just not that great, with the same problems year in and year out despite changes in personnel. Additionally Ozzie has just worn very thin on some of us for a variety of baseball and personal reasons.

My feelings about Ozzie have been sort of neutral. I'm not one to constantly beat the "fire Ozzie" drum and yet I'm not an Ozzie apologist either.

That being said, your comment pretty much nails how I feel about the Sox and Ozzie right now. No, it's not that the Sox were 6-3 last week and everyone is panicking after only one week that has put them at 7-9. It's that we've seen this same crap for several years in a row now. This is the same tired old story of the White Sox under Ozzie the last few years: they look lousy and lifeless at the start of the season, go on a roll for a while and then flop again down the stretch.

Since July 2006, this team has generally underachieved. Most of those seasons, they did so with a reasonable amount of talent. That's going on 5 years now. If they don't make the playoffs this year, something in management needs to change.

No, I'm not fed up because the Sox have looked bad for 1 week. I'm fed up because the 2011 Sox are looking like the 2010 Sox who looked like the 2009 Sox. "wait 'til the weather warms up", "they haven't hit their stride yet", etc., etc. The same tired old excuses and the same tired old results for this team.

Nelfox02
04-19-2011, 04:25 PM
Yes, somebody has to pay if that happens. But nobody will. Just like nobody paid last year.


dead on

BainesHOF
04-19-2011, 04:32 PM
The subject of Beckham deserves it's own thread, but I think it's becoming clear that he's not going to be anywhere near the player many thought he was going to be. He just doesn't have the tools to be great. He's not a particularly good fielder, he's not particularly fast, his swing is too big and he doesn't have great power. Add it up and what's left?

In Beckham's defense, the Sox didn't do him any favors by moving him to two new positions in as many years. It's extremely hard to first learn how to play third base and second base at the Major League level.

JB98
04-19-2011, 05:47 PM
Yes, somebody has to pay if that happens. But nobody will. Just like nobody paid last year. The only way anything changes at the top is if Ozzie disparages an entire group of people again and gets fired or if Kenny gets fed up with it and quits. And despite saying this year was do or die, the Sox brilliantly decided to pick up Ozzie's 2012 option before the season, meaning there are no immediate reprocussions for this season. If this "all in" team sucks come July, you can't even fire the manager as a last gasp effort to shake things up. I am not saying the Sox are anywhere close to being done, but the the only heads rolling from a potential failed season will be all the high priced players shipped out for pennies on the dollar next offseason because the team will lose lots of money. *que dickallen15

Probably right. Southpaw is more likely to be fired than Ozzie is.

I wouldn't fire Ozzie now. Way too early to pull the trigger. But I'd call for a change if he fails with this roster over 162 games.

WhiteSox5187
04-19-2011, 06:09 PM
Probably right. Southpaw is more likely to be fired than Ozzie is.

I wouldn't fire Ozzie now. Way too early to pull the trigger. But I'd call for a change if he fails with this roster over 162 games.

I think that Ozzie is likely to be fired if we don't make the playoffs, but Kenny will have to kill someone before he is fired and he is just as responsible for the Sox shortcomings over the past few years as Ozzie is.

tstrike2000
04-19-2011, 06:12 PM
DyooALwfxO8

bacon
04-19-2011, 06:12 PM
no, i'm not fed up because the sox have looked bad for 1 week. I'm fed up because the 2011 sox are looking like the 2010 sox who looked like the 2009 sox. "wait 'til the weather warms up", "they haven't hit their stride yet", etc., etc. The same tired old excuses and the same tired old results for this team.

+1

Harry Chappas
04-19-2011, 06:22 PM
I didn't even look at the link and I am guessing you're talking about GB?

He's played one full-season and parts of two others. It's a little early to consider him a bust just as it was too early to anoint him the future of the organization.

delben91
04-19-2011, 06:23 PM
He's played one full-season and parts of two others. It's a little early to consider him a bust just as it was too early to anoint him the future of the organization.

Take your sanity elsewhere. :tongue:

soltrain21
04-19-2011, 06:26 PM
He's played one full-season and parts of two others. It's a little early to consider him a bust just as it was too early to anoint him the future of the organization.

I don't think anyone is calling him a bust. I was just hoping we were getting one of those young phenoms that are popping up around the league. And it appears we didn't.

GoGoCrede
04-19-2011, 06:32 PM
Yes, somebody has to pay if that happens. But nobody will. Just like nobody paid last year.

Excuse you. Oney was fired!


:cool::smile:

SI1020
04-19-2011, 08:24 PM
I think that Ozzie is likely to be fired if we don't make the playoffs, but Kenny will have to kill someone before he is fired and he is just as responsible for the Sox shortcomings over the past few years as Ozzie is. I'll be surprised if either one is fired.

Brian26
04-19-2011, 08:35 PM
The big story today on Twitter was that Ozzie was meeting his old friend Torborg. I was trying to suggest that they leave Oz at the hotel and bring Torborg back to the park.

daveeym
04-19-2011, 08:38 PM
7-9 with 3 losses in the last 4 against some of the best starters in the AL, and people calling for Ozzie's job?

I guess people flying off the handle and the finger-pointing that goes with it is norm around here, but this is ridiculous.

I expect the Sox to do much better against Shields, Davis and Niemann the next 3 days.This is the crap we've been doing for years though since 2005. Making excuses for this team and Ozzie. I'm all for letting them sink or swim with Ozzie for the year but this team is way too talented to fail and he needs to go if they fail this year. I don't need any more of the revolving excuses, where first it's the bullpen that costs us games, then the hitting, then the starters start failing because they've been carrying the pen and the stress of being perfect, then an injury or two are holding us back and repeat ad nauseum until we miss the playoffs.

Brian26
04-19-2011, 08:41 PM
7-9 with 3 losses in the last 4 against some of the best starters in the AL, and people calling for Ozzie's job?

On the way home, Boers was talking about how the Sox have been handcuffed by no-name pitchers. I was thinking the same thing you mentioned - they've faced Price, Haren and Weaver three of the last four games. Bernstein didn't have the guts to correct him. This is why sports radio is a steaming pile of crap.

SlowMotion
04-19-2011, 08:47 PM
I guess the Ozzie debate will rage on until the day he's gone, but one thing you can't seriously say is that the topic shouldn't be brought up at all. Managers should be held accountable when their team continually misses the post season and his players continually underperform.

I wonder though, who gets the blame for designating a good lefty specialist with good velocity but only one pitch the teams closer? It was a waste of money to bring in Crain and make him a setup guy for that dough. Should have left Thornton to what he's good at, let Sale develop and leave him out of the equation and give Crain the job to run with it. I think Ozzie was behind this decision, because he's shown time and time again that he lets silly loyalty and his "gut" guide him when he should be making decisions based on facts. I don't trust Ozzie's baseball IQ and I don't trust him to keep this team consistent and focused day in and day out because the guy is just a magnet for drama and he cares more about peripheral stuff like his sons freedom of speech and his website than his baseball team.

KMcMahon817
04-19-2011, 09:18 PM
On the way home, Boers was talking about how the Sox have been handcuffed by no-name pitchers. I was thinking the same thing you mentioned - they've faced Price, Haren and Weaver three of the last four games. Bernstein didn't have the guts to correct him. This is why sports radio is a steaming pile of crap.

And Cahill, and Brett Anderson. Still not really an excuse.

BainesHOF
04-19-2011, 09:41 PM
On the way home, Boers was talking about how the Sox have been handcuffed by no-name pitchers. I was thinking the same thing you mentioned - they've faced Price, Haren and Weaver three of the last four games. Bernstein didn't have the guts to correct him. This is why sports radio is a steaming pile of crap.

That show in particular is garbage.

Viva Medias B's
04-19-2011, 10:45 PM
I'd wait until at least Memorial Day before even thinking about whether or not Guillen should be the manager.

A. Cavatica
04-19-2011, 10:57 PM
I'd wait until at least Memorial Day before even thinking about whether or not Guillen should be the manager.

That's the same timid thinking that brought Ozzie back in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

sox1970
04-19-2011, 10:57 PM
I'd wait until at least Memorial Day before even thinking about whether or not Guillen should be the manager.

In my book, .500 is good on June 1st--29-29 with this schedule would be fine. Now if they're 22-36, we have a major problem.

Dibbs
04-19-2011, 11:32 PM
No coach should ever be fired because they are not the ones playing on the field. In fact, I think Greg Walker is due a raise.

rockinrobin23
04-20-2011, 12:31 AM
Fire kenny worthless butt. keep ozzie fire kenny..

Nellie_Fox
04-20-2011, 12:58 AM
Should have left Thornton to what he's good at, let Sale develop and leave him out of the equation and give Crain the job to run with it.Seriously? You think Crain should be closing? Is that why the Twins went out and gave up their #1 catching prospect to bring in a closer when Nathan went down rather than hand the job to Crain? And why they didn't let him close during the interim, but rather used Rauch?

SI1020
04-20-2011, 10:18 AM
Seriously? You think Crain should be closing? Is that why the Twins went out and gave up their #1 catching prospect to bring in a closer when Nathan went down rather than hand the job to Crain? And why they didn't let him close during the interim, but rather used Rauch? Everything you say is right, but what other options are there? The Sox painted themselves into a corner.

SlowMotion
04-20-2011, 10:58 AM
Seriously? You think Crain should be closing? Is that why the Twins went out and gave up their #1 catching prospect to bring in a closer when Nathan went down rather than hand the job to Crain? And why they didn't let him close during the interim, but rather used Rauch?

I really, seriously do. Aside from Crain having maybe the best numbers out of the pen right now, there is no denying his 'stuff' and ability to locate, as well as his experience in the role. The Twins got rid of Crain because of money, not because he wasn't any good. They just couldn't afford the money he'd be commanding this year.

doublem23
04-20-2011, 11:00 AM
I really, seriously do. Aside from Crain having maybe the best numbers out of the pen right now, there is no denying his 'stuff' and ability to locate, as well as his experience in the role. The Twins got rid of Crain because of money, not because he wasn't any good. They just couldn't afford the money he'd be commanding this year.

Right, but what Nellie is saying is that last year, when the Twins needed a closer, not once, but twice, they went to someone else, first Rauch, and then they traded their #1 prospect to get Capps. Not a ringing endorsement from a team whose operations we always envy.

sox1970
04-20-2011, 11:07 AM
Think what you want about Dan Bernstein, but his blog today is pretty spot on.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/04/20/bernstein-guillen-hurting-sox-chances/

SlowMotion
04-20-2011, 11:24 AM
Right, but what Nellie is saying is that last year, when the Twins needed a closer, not once, but twice, they went to someone else, first Rauch, and then they traded their #1 prospect to get Capps. Not a ringing endorsement from a team whose operations we always envy.

Doesn't mean doodly. How much experience does Thornton have closing? You're arguing for arguings sake.

tstrike2000
04-20-2011, 11:25 AM
Think what you want about Dan Bernstein, but his blog today is pretty spot on.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/04/20/bernstein-guillen-hurting-sox-chances/

Again, no different than mistakes Guillen made when he became manager in '04. The roster changes but Guillen does not.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-20-2011, 12:05 PM
I really, seriously do. Aside from Crain having maybe the best numbers out of the pen right now, there is no denying his 'stuff' and ability to locate, as well as his experience in the role. The Twins got rid of Crain because of money, not because he wasn't any good. They just couldn't afford the money he'd be commanding this year.


I don't know how "commanding" Jesse Crain was for 3 years, $13 million considering he sucked as recently as 2009 and was never all that dominant in the first place. He's a nice pitcher to have in the pen but let's not get carried away.