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View Full Version : *Official* 4/16 "A Rainout Would Have Been Preferable..." Postgame Thread


Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 09:08 PM
Well, the homestand which started so promising has turned to complete ****.

Lousy bullpen, lousy weather, (now) lousy hitting and a lousy record. So much for a fast start.

Lip

Soxman219
04-16-2011, 09:09 PM
At least the Bulls won today.:dunno:

Dan H
04-16-2011, 09:11 PM
Nice losing streak. Real nice losing streak.

LITTLE NELL
04-16-2011, 09:13 PM
.500 and back to the drawing board.
I don't like the way the rest of April is shaping up as we are going to catch the Rays who are sort of hot, then at Detroit for 3 and into NY for 4. We need to win on Sunday and hit the road on a positive note.

johnnyg83
04-16-2011, 09:15 PM
this has been a tough 5 days ... even the victory was agonizing

ChiSoxGal85
04-16-2011, 09:16 PM
I have nothing to say about this game since I could not stand to watch after about the 6th inning. So I went to do something more fun, like vacuuming.

Oh - congratulations to Carlos on his 100th career home run.

tstrike2000
04-16-2011, 09:16 PM
Garbage weather followed by mostly garbage baseball. Just forget this one and move on to tomorrow.

JB98
04-16-2011, 09:19 PM
The excitement that comes with the start of a new season has worn off for me now. Now, it's just like, "Meh, we still stink." :shrug:

Dan H
04-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Garbage weather followed by mostly garbage baseball. Just forget this one and move on to tomorrow.

How many more are we going to have to forget?

DickAllen72
04-16-2011, 09:20 PM
I don't like the way the rest of April is shaping up as we are going to catch the Rays who are sort of hot, then at Detroit for 3 and into NY for 4.
Can you say "train wreck"? It would have been nice to win all those games they blew.

Crooked Number
04-16-2011, 09:23 PM
Cross another off the 60 you are supposed to lose tally. I think? We were in this one until the mound visit next pitch three run homer. What a punch in the nuts that was. Gavin walked the tight rope every single inning except the 5th. Two 3 run bombs and an ugly, ugly baseball game.

Get back on track tomorrow. Hope its more than a couple degrees above freezing.

Side note: Ohman's 3 appearance scoreless streak ends. Too bad. He was on his way to challenge Mark's record.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 09:26 PM
Nell:

You touch upon the remaining April games and that reminded me of something which I didn't realize until I read the story about it yesterday or the day before (I think it was in the Sun-Times.)

Apparently later on in the first half the Sox have a stretch where they play 30 of 43 games on the road!

30 of 43. Wow...somebody in the league office really loves sticking it to the Sox. A bunch of April home games in miserable weather before small crowds and then a difficult road stretch. No wonder the Sox have been upset with MLB over the schedule for the past few years.

Wonder why they can never seem to get something done more to their benefit. Obviously some other clubs must be getting a more friendly schedule.

Just another reason why perhaps, ownership and upper management talked about needing to get off to a good start. Even Ozzie understood it because of the things he told the media he was going to do in spring training to prevent a slow start (Naturally he went back on his word but that's a different issue...).

Lip

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2011, 09:28 PM
I wouldn't mind losing these two games if we had not blown the games on Monday and Wednesday. This was the first game we have not had a lead in, we should have won a lot more of those that we did hold leads in.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 09:29 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think they had a lead last night did they? :?:

Lip

sox1970
04-16-2011, 09:30 PM
That "later on in the first half" starts Monday.

Road--4 TB, 3 Det, 4 NY
Home--4 Bal, 2 Min
Road--3 Sea, 3 LAA, 3 Oak
Home--2 Tex, 2 Cle, 3 LAD
Road--3 Tex, 4 Tor, 3 Bos

That takes us to June 1st.

If I could sign up for .500 on June 1st right now, I'd take it.

BainesHOF
04-16-2011, 09:32 PM
At what point will a major change, i.e. firing Ozzie, be made?

This is what Reinsdorf gets for his $125 million payroll, poor play and brutal attendance? I'm already tired of watching this team. I still believe we have the makings of a good team, but I have no faith whatsoever that it will reach its potential under Ozzie.

The Immigrant
04-16-2011, 09:33 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think they had a lead last night did they? :?:

Lip

The Sox led 1:0 but promptly gave up 4 runs in the next inning.

JB98
04-16-2011, 09:33 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think they had a lead last night did they? :?:

Lip

They were up 1-0 last night. They got one in the third. Then, the Angels scored four in the fourth.

The Immigrant
04-16-2011, 09:37 PM
This was a disappointing home stand by the offense, considering how well they hit on the road. Hopefully the road trip will help them turn it around.

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 09:39 PM
Sounds like it was a good thing that I missed the game.

April just isn't a White Sox month.

They can still turn it around.

Talk about ****ty weather for this series.

At least we're supposed to get some sun tomorrow.

soltrain21
04-16-2011, 09:40 PM
Luckily the only team winning in this division won't be there at the end of the year.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 09:40 PM
JD:

Apparently neither was May the past two years....which is why they were on the golf course the first week of October.

Lip

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 09:42 PM
This was a disappointing home stand by the offense, considering how well they hit on the road. Hopefully the road trip will help them turn it around.

Eh, there really was only one pitcher that blew that they didn't show up for and that was today.

The A's didn't give us any starters that would be considered a walk in the park. Jered Weaver is no slouch either.

Bullpen and defense were the biggest let-downs this homestand.

With exception to today, the offense was respectable given the starters they were up against.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 09:43 PM
JD:

In the last three games played they have averaged three runs. Just sayin'...that won't win you a lot of games no matter who is pitching.

Lip

TDog
04-16-2011, 09:46 PM
With Floyd not pitching well today, the Sox needed offense, and the offense has almost disappeared since Dunn returned to the lineup. I don't know that that's not coincidental. Until today, the Sox were facing some elite starting pitching.

It's possible that Dunn came back too soon or that he needs a period of adjustment after missing a week to become consistently productive. It's possible he needs to adjust to the American League and not playing the field and that his appendix has nothing to do with his falling batting average. I hope he turns it around soon, especially if he's going to bat third. Friday night's home run may have overshadowed it, but his batting average has dropped almost to the Mendoza line. But like early last year, it wasn't the lack of DH production that was the problem, it was the lack of any substantive offensive production that contributed to the Sox digging themselves into a hole. The Sox were still in the game when Quentin homered, but Konerko's home run was meaningless.

Fortunately, this year the Sox aren't digging themselves into much of a hole this year. The Royals and Indians are getting off to fast starts despite not taking their series from the Sox at home. I don't believe either team is deep enough to keep it up for six months. The Twins are having as much bullpen problems as the White Sox, while their starting pitching and offense has been less consistent. And the Twins haven't shown shown as many flashes of possibly being very good that the White Sox have.

Today's game was the first this season that the White Sox didn't hold a lead at one point. There wasn't much they could do about it. Friday night the big hitters had their chances with men in scoring position and failed. Today, I can't recall more than one runner getting into scoring position. The double plays are so frustrating.

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 09:46 PM
JD:

In the last three games played they have averaged three runs. Just sayin'...that won't win you a lot of games no matter who is pitching.

Lip

You have to remember that Brett Anderson and Jered Weaver were the starters in two of those games. Not many offenses get anything off of them.

doublem23
04-16-2011, 09:50 PM
Need a win tomorrow just to salvage a .500 homestand

**** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 09:50 PM
With Floyd not pitching well today, the Sox needed offense, and the offense has almost disappeared since Dunn returned to the lineup. I don't know that that's not coincidental. Until today, the Sox were facing some elite starting pitching.

It's possible that Dunn came back too soon or that he needs a period of adjustment after missing a week to become consistently productive. It's possible he needs to adjust to the American League and not playing the field and that his appendix has nothing to do with his falling batting average. I hope he turns it around soon, especially if he's going to bat third. Friday night's home run may have overshadowed it, but his batting average has dropped almost to the Mendoza line. But like early last year, it wasn't the lack of DH production that was the problem, it was the lack of any substantive offensive production that contributed to the Sox digging themselves into a hole. The Sox were still in the game when Quentin homered, but Konerko's home run was meaningless.

Fortunately, this year the Sox aren't digging themselves into much of a hole this year. The Royals and Indians are getting off to fast starts despite not taking their series from the Sox at home. I don't believe either team is deep enough to keep it up for six months. The Twins are having as much bullpen problems as the White Sox, while their starting pitching and offense has been less consistent. And the Twins haven't shown shown as many flashes of possibly being very good that the White Sox have.

Today's game was the first this season that the White Sox didn't hold a lead at one point. There wasn't much they could do about it. Friday night the big hitters had their chances with men in scoring position and failed. Today, I can't recall more than one runner getting into scoring position. The double plays are so frustrating.

I'm not too worried about Dunn. Coming into today, his OBP was still at .424. I agree that he's probably adjusting right now after missing a week. I imagine when the Sox get back to Chicago his average will be around .260ish where it'll be for most of the season.

vinny
04-16-2011, 09:50 PM
That "later on in the first half" starts Monday.

Road--4 TB, 3 Det, 4 NY
Home--4 Bal, 2 Min
Road--3 Sea, 3 LAA, 3 Oak
Home--2 Tex, 2 Cle, 3 LAD
Road--3 Tex, 4 Tor, 3 Bos

That takes us to June 1st.

If I could sign up for .500 on June 1st right now, I'd take it.

Well, we at least we only have to face the Twins at home before June so they won't have much of a chance to get into our heads.

On the flip side, the beginning of July through the ASB is basically a home stand (there are 3 at the Cubs but those hardly count as road games).

CHISOXFAN13
04-16-2011, 10:11 PM
Well, we at least we only have to face the Twins at home before June so they won't have much of a chance to get into our heads.

On the flip side, the beginning of July through the ASB is basically a home stand (there are 3 at the Cubs but those hardly count as road games).

The Twins ****ing suck right now. I wish we had 15 games with them in May.

tstrike2000
04-16-2011, 10:22 PM
How many more are we going to have to forget?

I wish I could answer that question. It's just hard to see tired/uninspired play, poor decision making, and poor playing so much of the time. Then it's followed by an Ozzie post game interview that often provides no answers and/or clues.

JB98
04-16-2011, 10:26 PM
I wish I could answer that question. It's just hard to see tired/uninspired play, poor decision making, and poor playing so much of the time. Then it's followed by an Ozzie post game interview that often provides no answers and/or clues.

What's funny is Ozzie was happy with the team's performance after last night's game:

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4297/white-sox-see-positives-in-loss

Not sure what he was so happy about. Two failed bunts? Another error that led to runs for the opposition? The failure of the pitcher to pitch over the error? The lack of hitting with RISP by middle-of-the-order hitters?

LoveYourSuit
04-16-2011, 10:26 PM
Sounds like it was a good thing that I missed the game.

April just isn't a White Sox month.

They can still turn it around.

Talk about ****ty weather for this series.

At least we're supposed to get some sun tomorrow.

Yeah, usually when the Sox suck they suck in April.

When they have good seasons, it usually has to do with winning early and often to set the tone.

It looks like they will be climbing all summer once again like they did last year.


BTW, Gavin continues to puzzle me. He is one of the most frustrating pitchers to watch in my history of being a Sox fan. Best stuff on this team and the key is very mediocre every year. I don't get when he and Danks are going to take the next step.

vinny
04-16-2011, 10:27 PM
The Twins ****ing suck right now. I wish we had 15 games with them in May.

Be careful what you ask for. I could see us providing them with the spark they need to turn their season around.

Dibbs
04-16-2011, 10:29 PM
It's only an April loss. Those count less.

It was so cold. The bats will come around when the weather heats up.

Fire Greg Walker.

I hope Coop fixes the staff.

JB98
04-16-2011, 10:29 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4314/white-soxs-early-identity-search-continues

Quentin "tips his cap" to the rookie pitcher.

Konerko "tips his hat" to the rookie pitcher.

Nelfox02
04-16-2011, 10:38 PM
I wish I could answer that question. It's just hard to see tired/uninspired play, poor decision making, and poor playing so much of the time. Then it's followed by an Ozzie post game interview that often provides no answers and/or clues.

at least for me, the entertainment value of his post game rants went out the window a long time ago....now I find them pointless. I think he provides no answers or clues because he really doesnt have any.

I dont question his passion for the team.....but do question his ability to manage a team, and get the most out of his players.

I just dont really see any reason to think this team will be much better (or worse) than what we saw in 2010.

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 10:39 PM
Yeah, usually when the Sox suck they suck in April.

When they have good seasons, it usually has to do with winning early and often to set the tone.

It looks like they will be climbing all summer once again like they did last year.


BTW, Gavin continues to puzzle me. He is one of the most frustrating pitchers to watch in my history of being a Sox fan. Best stuff on this team and the key is very mediocre every year. I don't get when he and Danks are going to take the next step.

:contreras:

TDog
04-16-2011, 10:41 PM
I'm not too worried about Dunn. Coming into today, his OBP was still at .424. I agree that he's probably adjusting right now after missing a week. I imagine when the Sox get back to Chicago his average will be around .260ish where it'll be for most of the season.

On-base percentage isn't nearly as important as batting average for a No. 3 hitter. Dunn isn't in the lineup to reach base. He's in the lineup to drive in runs. Same with Konerko and Quentin, a heart of the order that is seriously tation-to-station when they get on the bases. Often power hitters are walked because pitchers are pitching around them. Frank Thomas walked a lot, but he also was hitting well over .300 until the downside of his career. And like Konerko, Dunn is someone who needs to be pitch-run for when he represents a big run late.

But it isn't like switching Dunn and Quentin in the order these last three games would have made a difference in production. And the fact that pitchers seem to pitch around Dunn sometimes even when first base is occupied shows that pitchers are concerned with his presence.

soltrain21
04-16-2011, 10:48 PM
:contreras:

That guy was an anchor for our World Series. Whenever I think of Jose, frustrating is one of the last things I will think of.

soltrain21
04-16-2011, 10:51 PM
On-base percentage isn't nearly as important as batting average for a No. 3 hitter. Dunn isn't in the lineup to reach base. He's in the lineup to drive in runs. Same with Konerko and Quentin, a heart of the order that is seriously tation-to-station when they get on the bases. Often power hitters are walked because pitchers are pitching around them. Frank Thomas walked a lot, but he also was hitting well over .300 until the downside of his career. And like Konerko, Dunn is someone who needs to be pitch-run for when he represents a big run late.

But it isn't like switching Dunn and Quentin in the order these last three games would have made a difference in production. And the fact that pitchers seem to pitch around Dunn sometimes even when first base is occupied shows that pitchers are concerned with his presence.

I don't even know what point you are trying to make.

LoveYourSuit
04-16-2011, 11:00 PM
That guy was an anchor for our World Series. Whenever I think of Jose, frustrating is one of the last things I will think of.


Agree 100%.

fox23
04-16-2011, 11:21 PM
Blah blah blah... tip your hat, 60 games you lose, no big deal, insert your excuse here...

RockJock07
04-16-2011, 11:43 PM
Blah blah blah... tip your hat, 60 games you lose, no big deal, insert your excuse here...

Well said, there have been to many tip your cap moments vs. rookie pitchers under Ozzie. The Indians aren't going to win 90+ games so there is time but for **** sake, getting some timely hitting would be nice.

Brian26
04-16-2011, 11:47 PM
:contreras:

That guy was an anchor for our World Series. Whenever I think of Jose, frustrating is one of the last things I will think of.

Arguably the best pitcher in baseball from ASG 2005 to ASG 2006. Not even close to Floyd or Danks.

JermaineDye05
04-16-2011, 11:56 PM
Arguably the best pitcher in baseball from ASG 2005 to ASG 2006. Not even close to Floyd or Danks.

That guy was an anchor for our World Series. Whenever I think of Jose, frustrating is one of the last things I will think of.

I'm not arguing that. However, he was also one of the most frustrating pitchers in a White Sox uniform. Save from the stretch in 2005-2006, you never knew what you were going to get from Jose. He'd be lights out for 8 innings one day, and then walk the park in three innings the next start. Very similar to Gavin in inconsistency.

tstrike2000
04-17-2011, 12:00 AM
Arguably the best pitcher in baseball from ASG 2005 to ASG 2006. Not even close to Floyd or Danks.

Indeed, which also included just about single-handedly keeping the Sox above water when they almost lost that 15 game lead to the Indians.

SI1020
04-17-2011, 01:21 AM
That guy was an anchor for our World Series. Whenever I think of Jose, frustrating is one of the last things I will think of. He was a top of the line starter the last half of 05, and the first half of 06. Other than that, I'd say yes a very frustrating inconsistent pitcher.

ShooterMcGavin
04-17-2011, 02:33 AM
It's games like this one that keep me from going to many April Sox games. It's bad enough that fans sit through a poorly played game, but to do so in temperatures barely above freezing is even worse.

Hitmen77
04-17-2011, 11:50 AM
Well, the homestand which started so promising has turned to complete ****.

Lousy bullpen, lousy weather, (now) lousy hitting and a lousy record. So much for a fast start.

Lip

I'm not happy with the last two games, but IMO every team gets a couple of games in a row where they are flat, don't look good, and lose easily. What this season to date still gets back to for me is the many games before this weekend that we just totally blew.

If we had a defense that didn't make key errors and a bullpen that totally crapped their pants just about every chance they had to close out a win, we wouldn't be pointing to these last 2 games vs. the Angels and shaking our heads at yet another slow start by the Sox.

I'm not making any excuses for these last 2 games or saying I'm the least bit happy with them. But damn it, we have to win those games that are ours for the taking. This is still not as bad as last year because we're not behind the Twins and Tigers and not too far off the division lead. Last year we were 6 games out by late April.

I don't know what the cause is, but the Sox always seem to stumble out of the gate, turn things around in late spring, and then stumble badly after the all star break (in July or August) to fall out of the race. That seems to be a recurring pattern even as the roster almost entirely turns over over the last 5 years.

TDog
04-17-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't even know what point you are trying to make.

On-base percentage is an irrelevant statistic for a No. 3 hitter who has only 1 hit in the 10 times he has come to the plate with runners in scoring position. If you are looking for a good No. 3 hitter for your lineup, you look for batting average and ignore on-base percentage.

doublem23
04-17-2011, 12:24 PM
On-base percentage is an irrelevant statistic for a No. 3 hitter who has only 1 hit in the 10 times he has come to the plate with runners in scoring position. If you are looking for a good No. 3 hitter for your lineup, you look for batting average and ignore on-base percentage.

Absolutely, when you're the #3 hitter, and they're throwing you balls, SWING THE **** AWAY. No one cares about those "nerd" numbers, SHOW ME YOUR BALLS, BRO. Pitch 5 feet off the plate? REACH FOR THAT, MOTHER****ER. Bounce one in the dirt? GO GET IT.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2011, 12:41 PM
Hitmen:

Additional to your point is this, the Sox now for some reason are having trouble stringing winning seasons together. From 2000 through 2006 they never had a losing year (in 2002 they were exactly at .500)

But look at the pattern that's developed:

2006: winning season
2007: losing season
2008: winning season
2009: losing season
2010: winning season
2011: ?????

Injuries haven't played a massive part in this pattern although they were hurt by them in 07 and 10. I don't know what the biggest factor is with this. Do they get complacent?

All I know is that if the pattern holds and this turns out to be a losing year, with this payroll and this talent, somebody has got to go, either Kenny or Ozzie.

Lip

TDog
04-17-2011, 01:06 PM
Absolutely, when you're the #3 hitter, and they're throwing you balls, SWING THE **** AWAY. No one cares about those "nerd" numbers, SHOW ME YOUR BALLS, BRO. Pitch 5 feet off the plate? REACH FOR THAT, MOTHER****ER. Bounce one in the dirt? GO GET IT.

You assume he Dunn is walking when he doesn't get anything to hit, and he isn't getting anything to hit with runners in scoring position. That hasn't been the case so far this year.

Dunn's batting average with runners in scoring postion is .125. His slugging percentage with runners in scoring postion is .250 His on-base percentage with runners in scoring position is .300. His overall on-base percentage is not relevant to his success as a No. 3 hitter.

The season has just started. Just over this limited stretch that Dunn hasn't been a good No. 3 hitter. He may turn out to be a great No. 3 hitter, and if he is, his batting average will be a better indicator than his on-base percentage.

Over his career, including the inglorious end in Oakland, Frank Thomas hit .312 with runners in scoring position. His on-base percentage was .447. On-base percentage is a stat that penalizes hitters for sacrifice flies, but if you take out the appearances where he drove in a run on a fly ball without reaching base, his on-base percentage was over .600. Not nearly as good as Ted Williams, but a pretty good No. 3 hitter nonetheless.

I don't expect Adam Dunn to put up those numbers. No one does. But no one should expect solid No. 3 hitter production from someone with a low batting average, regardless of his on-base percentage.

soltrain21
04-17-2011, 01:40 PM
You assume he Dunn is walking when he doesn't get anything to hit, and he isn't getting anything to hit with runners in scoring position. That hasn't been the case so far this year.

Dunn's batting average with runners in scoring postion is .125. His slugging percentage with runners in scoring postion is .250 His on-base percentage with runners in scoring position is .300. His overall on-base percentage is not relevant to his success as a No. 3 hitter.

The season has just started. Just over this limited stretch that Dunn hasn't been a good No. 3 hitter. He may turn out to be a great No. 3 hitter, and if he is, his batting average will be a better indicator than his on-base percentage.

Over his career, including the inglorious end in Oakland, Frank Thomas hit .312 with runners in scoring position. His on-base percentage was .447. On-base percentage is a stat that penalizes hitters for sacrifice flies, but if you take out the appearances where he drove in a run on a fly ball without reaching base, his on-base percentage was over .600. Not nearly as good as Ted Williams, but a pretty good No. 3 hitter nonetheless.

I don't expect Adam Dunn to put up those numbers. No one does. But no one should expect solid No. 3 hitter production from someone with a low batting average, regardless of his on-base percentage.

You act like everyone thinks Dunn should be hitting in the three spot. Nobody but Ozzie thinks he is a 3 hitter.

DickAllen72
04-17-2011, 01:52 PM
You act like everyone thinks Dunn should be hitting in the three spot. Nobody but Ozzie thinks he is a 3 hitter.
TDod is just stating the reasons why he doesn't believe Dunn is a 3 hitter, and I agree with him and his reasoning.

I'd like to see Carlos Quentin in the three spot for the Sox - the '08 version of CQ, that is.

soltrain21
04-17-2011, 02:09 PM
TDod is just stating the reasons why he doesn't believe Dunn is a 3 hitter, and I agree with him and his reasoning.

I'd like to see Carlos Quentin in the three spot for the Sox - the '08 version of CQ, that is.

But nobody believes Dunn is a three hitter. He is completely preaching to the choir.

TaylorStSox
04-17-2011, 02:26 PM
Yesterday was miserable all around. It was a ****ty game. The weather was awful. I'll just forget it ever happened. We play 162. I'll get mad another time.

I absolutely love Jose Contreras. We got him for a bag of balls and he took us to the promised land. Any inconsistency on his part is okay with me.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-17-2011, 02:38 PM
I agree with the comments stating Dunn is not a 3 hitter. Among all the possible options, he ranks near the bottom ahead of only AJ, Morel and Pierre.

As for Floyd, I don't know if he's as inconsistent as much as he is just flat out average. It's become fairly clear that there isn't much upside left to see here. Run of the mill innings eater. Scott Baker.

TomBradley72
04-17-2011, 02:42 PM
Hitmen:

Additional to your point is this, the Sox now for some reason are having trouble stringing winning seasons together. From 2000 through 2006 they never had a losing year (in 2002 they were exactly at .500)

But look at the pattern that's developed:

2006: winning season
2007: losing season
2008: winning season
2009: losing season
2010: winning season
2011: ?????

Injuries haven't played a massive part in this pattern although they were hurt by them in 07 and 10. I don't know what the biggest factor is with this. Do they get complacent?

All I know is that if the pattern holds and this turns out to be a losing year, with this payroll and this talent, somebody has got to go, either Kenny or Ozzie.

Lip

I think this pattern is directly linked to KW approach as a GM and (under his leadership) the overall poor performance of the farm system.

This leads to patching together a roster of mostly veterans each season- which leads to hit and miss results.

Lots of discussion about WSox attendance right now- the reality is that without Game 163 in 2008- we'd be staring at 5 years without a postseason appearance, the longest stretch since 1994-1999.

Other than corner OF (where we could call up Viciedo) we have no organizational depth anywhere to help us if we have an injury.

SI1020
04-17-2011, 02:52 PM
I think this pattern is directly linked to KW approach as a GM and (under his leadership) the overall poor performance of the farm system.

This leads to patching together a roster of mostly veterans each season- which leads to hit and miss results.

Lots of discussion about WSox attendance right now- the reality is that without Game 163 in 2008- we'd be staring at 5 years without a postseason appearance, the longest stretch since 1994-1999.

Other than corner OF (where we could call up Viciedo) we have no organizational depth anywhere to help us if we have an injury. This is exactly the kind of thing that can lead to a many years long drought for a MLB team. The veterans get past their collective peaks, and there is little if anything down on the farm. At this point you have few if any bargaining chips and you're facing the dreaded rebuilding phase.

Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2011, 04:35 PM
2006: winning season
2007: losing season
2008: winning season
2009: losing season
2010: winning season
2011: ?????

Injuries haven't played a massive part in this pattern although they were hurt by them in 07 and 10. I don't know what the biggest factor is with this. Do they get complacent?

All I know is that if the pattern holds and this turns out to be a losing year, with this payroll and this talent, somebody has got to go, either Kenny or Ozzie.

Lip

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: If the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year, Ozzie needs to go. If the Sox fail to make the playoffs, it would have been the third consecutive year in which they fail to make the playoffs. In this division, with their payroll and market size compared to the other teams in the division, at a minimum the Sox should make the playoffs once every three years.

Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2011, 04:41 PM
This is exactly the kind of thing that can lead to a many years long drought for a MLB team. The veterans get past their collective peaks, and there is little if anything down on the farm. At this point you have few if any bargaining chips and you're facing the dreaded rebuilding phase.

I think the Sox have augmented their veteran core with some crucial young players; Beckham and Morel are home-grown, and Alexei was scouted and signed by the Sox organization. So they are not just relying on signing free agents to keep competing. It would be nice if during the next 2-3 years they could develop two quality MLB outfielders from among Viciedo, Danks, Mitchell and Thompson.

TomBradley72
04-17-2011, 05:47 PM
This is exactly the kind of thing that can lead to a many years long drought for a MLB team. The veterans get past their collective peaks, and there is little if anything down on the farm. At this point you have few if any bargaining chips and you're facing the dreaded rebuilding phase.

The thing that is starting to worry me is that the WSox don't seem to have any consistent philosophy or approach.

We let Thome go to go with "DH by committee"- then spent more on the DH role (Kotsay + Ramirez) in 2010 than we would have on Thome- then to right back to big/slow slugger with Dunn (200Ks/season, >235 career BA w/RISP).

We say we stress speed and defense- but we never really make moves prioritizing either one.

SI1020
04-17-2011, 07:29 PM
I think the Sox have augmented their veteran core with some crucial young players; Beckham and Morel are home-grown, and Alexei was scouted and signed by the Sox organization. So they are not just relying on signing free agents to keep competing. It would be nice if during the next 2-3 years they could develop two quality MLB outfielders from among Viciedo, Danks, Mitchell and Thompson. Alexei is bona fide but do you really think the two highlighted players are going to cut it? Beckham is starting to remind me of Warren Morris, the LSU phenom who was going to be the second coming of Bill Mazeroski in Pittsburgh. Of the 4 potential outfielders you list I would only hold my breath for Viciedo and Mitchell. Viciedo hasn't shown he can field any position and Mitchell is coming off of a serious injury. Whatever creative genius KW has left will be taxed to the max in the near term.

SI1020
04-17-2011, 07:30 PM
The thing that is starting to worry me is that the WSox don't seem to have any consistent philosophy or approach.

We let Thome go to go with "DH by committee"- then spent more on the DH role (Kotsay + Ramirez) in 2010 than we would have on Thome- then to right back to big/slow slugger with Dunn (200Ks/season, >235 career BA w/RISP).

We say we stress speed and defense- but we never really make moves prioritizing either one. I think this is a very good post and I agree.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2011, 08:31 PM
There's truth in those comments... also remember the bullpen fiasco of 2007. The Sox were going to go with kids and untested people who all threw 95.

After the bullpen was awful that "philosophy" went right out the window for 2008 (and thank God it did...). It should never have been used in the first place particularly with the stiffs and retreds the Sox were relying on.

Lip

Domeshot17
04-17-2011, 09:01 PM
The slow slugging argument is just bull**** at this point. Outside of the middle of the order, where is speed and D lacking? Most teams do not have speed in the middle. Konerko Dunn and Quentin. We have speed at 1 and 2. Rios gives you speed in the middle. AJ is not FAST but he is a great base runner. Morel runs well, Alexei is very quick. The Defense in the Infield is fantastic and the OF is good. Up the middle we are great (C-2b-SS-CF). We lack in the corners, but to upgrade that D you lose Pierre's speed.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2011, 09:41 PM
Dome:

I hope it turns out you are right because right now the Sox are one of the worst fielding teams in baseball.

Lip

Domeshot17
04-17-2011, 11:34 PM
Dome:

I hope it turns out you are right because right now the Sox are one of the worst fielding teams in baseball.

Lip

We are VERY weak in the corner OF spots, with no defensive replacements. In terms of fielding stats, we are going to make a lot of errors, in part because Alexei has so much range but his arm is hit or miss, and in part because Morel is adjusting to major league game speed. That said, they will also make a ton of plays most others won't.

But I do agree, thusfar, with a coaching staff that claims to get off the bus preaching fundamentals and defense, we have not displayed it early.

TDog
04-18-2011, 01:00 AM
But nobody believes Dunn is a three hitter. He is completely preaching to the choir.

I didn't get the impression that you agreed with me.

In fact, I have been posting since before opening day that I didn't believe Dunn should be a No. 3 hitter and/or that he is hurting the lineup as the No. 3 hitter, and the politest responses I remember included a rolling eyes icon.

ChiSoxGirl
04-18-2011, 08:28 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4314/white-soxs-early-identity-search-continues

Quentin "tips his cap" to the rookie pitcher.

Konerko "tips his hat" to the rookie pitcher.

In the world of ChiSoxGirl, these are the most annoying phrases uttered in baseball. I seriously CAN'T STAND them! How come it seems like no one else has to "tip their cap" to a no-name pitcher? Sox players are always the ones doing that. Oh, I know why... because more often than not, they fail at hitting pitchers they've never seen before.

Hitmen77
04-18-2011, 09:25 AM
Hitmen:

Additional to your point is this, the Sox now for some reason are having trouble stringing winning seasons together. From 2000 through 2006 they never had a losing year (in 2002 they were exactly at .500)

But look at the pattern that's developed:

2006: winning season
2007: losing season
2008: winning season
2009: losing season
2010: winning season
2011: ?????

Injuries haven't played a massive part in this pattern although they were hurt by them in 07 and 10. I don't know what the biggest factor is with this. Do they get complacent?

All I know is that if the pattern holds and this turns out to be a losing year, with this payroll and this talent, somebody has got to go, either Kenny or Ozzie.

Lip

One of the problems with JR is that he seems to see Kenny and Ozzie as practically family. I don't see either guy leaving any time soon unless they quit.

Unfortunately, I think the Sox window for making a run at a pennant closes after this season if they don't at least make the playoff (and perhaps go deep in the playoffs). Without that, there won't be enough fan support to keep payroll so high and I expect the Sox to cut payroll for 2012 if that happens.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Hitmen:

I fully expect that as well which would beg the question would they keep Ozzie around? Would he want to try to rebuild with a bunch of kids in an empty ballpark basically most nights?

Lip

shingo10
04-18-2011, 11:42 AM
Isn't it awfully premature to start speculating about what happens next with this organization?

I mean I know it was a horrible homestand but still we aren't even a month into the season. Every team plays bad at some point during the year. Every team gets swept at some point.

We spent a whole offseason anticipating and talking about what this season would bring and then people declare it over 3 weeks in?

There is still time for the "philosophy" of this season to work. Dunn could start hitting. The bullpen could start pitching. Our defense could start fielding. Ozzie could start managing better.

If they don't then it becomes one of the most disappointing seasons of all time. I just think there is way, way too much to go to start looking towards rebuilding.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2011, 01:01 PM
Shingo:

I'm not saying this season is going to be a bad one...it could be however.

I was responding to Hitmen's comment about the window of opportunity potentially closing this season if the Sox don't make the postseason.

I agree with him. Given that ownership almost pulled the plug after last year's 88 win season it's valid speculation on his part.

I then simply took it a step further and wondered out loud that IF that were to happen would Ozzie even want to stick around?

Neither Hitmen nor I am predicitng anything for this year outside of the obvious that it hasn't started well and with 30 of the next 43 games on the road, you begin to worry.

Lip

Nelfox02
04-18-2011, 01:10 PM
We spent a whole offseason anticipating and talking about what this season would bring and then people declare it over 3 weeks in?



I posted in the last game thread---no one can possibly say this season is over on April 18th, even if the sox were 0-15 right now. What bothers me is that this team so far has shown nothing to make you think they will be any different to what the last few years have been, and that is no post season or in the case of 2008, barely getting there and making a quick exit. The defense continues to be shoddy, the bullpen is not as bad as it looks right now, but there are very serious questions as to how good it will be. Managing still very questionable. Our offense still gets shut down by rookies....we still have a very difficult time pitching over errors, just a lot of the same old bull****.

yes, there is still an ocean of time for this thing to get better, but early indications are that this year will be a struggle.

I hope we see some of these bad trends bucked soon....

Hitmen77
04-18-2011, 01:36 PM
Shingo:

I'm not saying this season is going to be a bad one...it could be however.

I was responding to Hitmen's comment about the window of opportunity potentially closing this season if the Sox don't make the postseason.

I agree with him. Given that ownership almost pulled the plug after last year's 88 win season it's valid speculation on his part.

I then simply took it a step further and wondered out loud that IF that were to happen would Ozzie even want to stick around?

Neither Hitmen nor I am predicitng anything for this year outside of the obvious that it hasn't started well and with 30 of the next 43 games on the road, you begin to worry.

Lip

Exactly.

The good news is that the Sox are still ahead of the Tigers and Twins this year. We're 4 behind the Tribe, but people expect them to come back down to earth (yeah, I know that sounds like "famous last words").

But since there was already a discussion of OG and KW's futures with the Sox should the team flop this year, I'm just saying that there's more at stake than just management jobs if the Sox have another disappointing year. If that happens, I expect the current window to win to be over. Sox ownership isn't going to keep going over budget if disappointing play keeps crowd levels to what they were last year.

As far as the upcoming number of games on the road, that's certainly a formidable challenge for this team. But I'm not necessarily assuming this team can't win on the road.

doublem23
04-18-2011, 01:45 PM
As far as the upcoming number of games on the road, that's certainly a formidable challenge for this team. But I'm not necessarily assuming this team can't win on the road.

The good news is Longoria is still out for TB and we seem to be catching Detroit and New York at the right time.