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View Full Version : *Official* 4/15 "At least the bullpen didn't blow it..." Postgame Thread


Lip Man 1
04-15-2011, 11:50 PM
I think we can officially say that the "good start" the organization so badly needed and talked about this off season is out the window.

At least the bullpen didn't blow it. But once again an error led to unearned runs. The Sox have got to lead the league in them. 1-7 with runners in scoring position didn't help matters either.

Things are not good right now.

Lip

CHISOXFAN13
04-15-2011, 11:53 PM
Regardless of what happens in the final two games, this has been a pretty ****ty homestand to open the season against three teams who aren't that good.

Nelfox02
04-15-2011, 11:54 PM
no, not good, but pretty par for the course with this team.

we had a key error, inability to pitch over that error, poor bunting, bunts being called in very questionable situations, inability to get a key late hit (that area was one of the few things we've done well this year but not tonight)........all adds up to another ho hum loss.

Humber was okay......and they did battle back to the point where the game was worth watching at least.....but nothing really to get excited about here.

the bunt call after pierre led off the 8th with the hit......why?

CHISOXFAN13
04-15-2011, 11:57 PM
no, not good, but pretty par for the course with this team.

we had a key error, inability to pitch over that error, poor bunting, bunts being called in very questionable situations, inability to get a key late hit (that area was one of the few things we've done well this year but not tonight)........all adds up to another ho hum loss.

Humber was okay......and they did battle back to the point where the game was worth watching at least.....but nothing really to get excited about here.

the bunt call after pierre led off the 8th with the hit......why?

Almost as bad as a green light on 3-0 against a pitcher who was all over the place.

Ozzie has been as bad as the team.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 12:00 AM
I wondered about that bunt call myself. Why not let him go? He's got a good steal success rate. He gets to second THEN you bunt him over (like the Sox use to do in the 50's & 60's...) When he's on 3rd you've got more ways to get him home.

But then I'm not the manager.

Lip

DirtySox
04-16-2011, 12:03 AM
I wondered about that bunt call myself. Why not let him go? He's got a good steal success rate. He gets to second THEN you bunt him over (like the Sox use to do in the 50's & 60's...) When he's on 3rd you've got more ways to get him home.

But then I'm not the manager.

Lip

Correct.

Bunting over Juan Pierre to second negates pretty much the only tool Juan brings to the table. It's equally moronic because Gordon is one of the team's better hitters. Too bad Ozzie has to push his buttons and things like this will never change.

ChiSoxGal85
04-16-2011, 12:03 AM
Yet another loss on the record, but at least I'm not completely pissed off about this one. Weaver has been outstanding, and if he was on, it was going to be a tough game to win.

There was some good news in this game. Pierre made a nice catch taking away a home run. Dunn got his first HR at US Cellular; Humber did all right and Gray stepped in and held his own for a couple of innings. Santos looked pretty good - lots of movement on his pitches, but looked a bit wild to me sometimes. Even Ohman did his job facing one batter.

Bad stuff - another error by Morel; TCQ leaving runners on 2nd and 3rd in the 8th swinging at a 3-0 pitch (ugh), and - geez - bunting at that point in the game - let Pierre steal. *that* really needs to go away.

Boondock Saint
04-16-2011, 12:04 AM
I wondered about that bunt call myself. Why not let him go? He's got a good steal success rate. He gets to second THEN you bunt him over (like the Sox use to do in the 50's & 60's...) When he's on 3rd you've got more ways to get him home.

But then I'm not the manager.

Lip

It makes me absolutely sick when I see Ozzie bunt Juan Pierre to second base. It pisses me off even more when he forces a good hitter like Beckham to do it, too. I've said it a dozen times going back to last year, but it needs to be said again, I guess. Why the hell do you give up an out to move over a proven base stealer?

Ozzie has zero common sense.

guillensdisciple
04-16-2011, 12:05 AM
Nothing changes for this organization. Just like its manager, all it is is a bunch of talk and nothing when it comes to the field.

Last year, pitching and defense were solid- hitting blew. This year hitting is amazing, starters are good, but bullpen and defense blows. Hahahahahahaha, and they beg us to spend the money we don't have to watch the same story.

05' is gone folks. But the same bull**** is still on the field.

Crooked Number
04-16-2011, 12:06 AM
More errors, more poor execution, good bullpen performance? Hey thats improvement. The bullpen pitched well. Gray, Ohman and Santos kept them at 4. So thats the positive.

Now for the much easier negative. Tonights winner was in the 8th when Pierre gets on with nobody out. You know, the AL steals leader from 2010? Well, instead of hit and run, or just a straight steal, the decision is to go with the bunt. Ok, except our inept, fundamentally poor baseball team finds a way to bunt into a force at second base with the 2010 stolen base leader running. Didn't think that was possible? Ha. Sit back relax and watch it happen.

Ozzie is nothing if not stubborn. It's like watching a guy with one leg trying to win an ass kicking contest.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2011, 12:09 AM
Fernando Rodney not only sucks in general but he's been especially struggling with his control to start the season - so much so that he has already been displaced as the closer. We get Pierre on to the lead off the inning and the first ****ing thing Ozzie wants to do is give him an out! And take the bat out of Beckham's hands! Just to move him over for "singles hitter" Adam Dunn! EVERY variable in play screams DON'T BUNT!

But of course, Ozzie has to try and show how smart he is. I'm sure eventually it will work and Ozzie and Joey can pat each other on the back. Never mind all the outs and at bats wasted along the way.

This clown has been given a mint lineup and all he wants to do is bunt every chance he gets.

soltrain21
04-16-2011, 12:11 AM
Fernando Rodney not only sucks in general but he's been especially struggling with his control to start the season - so much so that he has already been displaced as the closer. We get Pierre on to the lead off the inning and the first ****ing thing Ozzie wants to do is give him an out! And take the bat out of Beckham's hands! Just to move him over for "singles hitter" Adam Dunn! EVERY variable in play screams DON'T BUNT!

But of course, Ozzie has to try and show how smart he is. I'm sure eventually it will work and Ozzie and Joey can pat each other on the back. Never mind all the outs and at bats wasted along the way.

This clown has been given a mint lineup and all he wants to do is bunt every chance he gets.

That is the biggest problem with the whole situation. How in the **** does Ozzie not know his team? Pierre can steal, Beckham makes contact and Adam Dunn either strikes out or hits a homerun. The last thing Beckham should have been doing was bunting over the steals leader to bring up the definition of a homer or nothing player.

Just terrible managing.

canOcorn
04-16-2011, 12:14 AM
Ozzie urinates on himself, yet again. Would we please replace this dunce with a real manager, Kenny? PLEASE!

SephClone89
04-16-2011, 12:20 AM
Ozzie urinates on himself, yet again. Would we please replace this dunce with a real manager, Kenny? PLEASE!

What an unexpected post.

doublem23
04-16-2011, 12:52 AM
Konerko, Quentin, and Rios combined 0-12 today.

Ugh. Just gotta power through it.

BainesHOF
04-16-2011, 12:56 AM
Ozzie needs to go for a million reasons.

Foulke You
04-16-2011, 12:57 AM
More errors, more poor execution, good bullpen performance? Hey thats improvement. The bullpen pitched well. Gray, Ohman and Santos kept them at 4. So thats the positive.

Now for the much easier negative. Tonights winner was in the 8th when Pierre gets on with nobody out. You know, the AL steals leader from 2010? Well, instead of hit and run, or just a straight steal, the decision is to go with the bunt. Ok, except our inept, fundamentally poor baseball team finds a way to bunt into a force at second base with the 2010 stolen base leader running. Didn't think that was possible? Ha. Sit back relax and watch it happen.

Ozzie is nothing if not stubborn. It's like watching a guy with one leg trying to win an ass kicking contest.

Fernando Rodney not only sucks in general but he's been especially struggling with his control to start the season - so much so that he has already been displaced as the closer. We get Pierre on to the lead off the inning and the first ****ing thing Ozzie wants to do is give him an out! And take the bat out of Beckham's hands! Just to move him over for "singles hitter" Adam Dunn! EVERY variable in play screams DON'T BUNT!

But of course, Ozzie has to try and show how smart he is. I'm sure eventually it will work and Ozzie and Joey can pat each other on the back. Never mind all the outs and at bats wasted along the way.

This clown has been given a mint lineup and all he wants to do is bunt every chance he gets.

I agree with both of these posts. I like Ozzie but he has made some very poor decisions in key moments in most of these losses this year. From a club management perspective, the sac bunting is the thing that is driving me nuts the most. First off, there is nobody on this team who is a good bunter with the exception of Pierre and Vizquel. NOBODY else should even try or be asked to do it because they are terrible at it.

The "get em over, get em in" strategy for the Sox seems to fail at an alarmingly high rate for the last several seasons. It hasn't worked well since 2005 but we continue to play "Ozzieball/Smart Ball/Small Ball" as it was called back then. More often than not, when the Sox try it, the bunt is either popped up or it is executed poorly and they get the lead runner anyway. Why take the bat out of Gordon Beckham's hands? I don't know how many times Ozzie needs to see the sac bunts fail before he gives up this plan. With the addition of Dunn, he has been given an honest to goodness American League lineup. He needs to adjust and start managing his personnel better.

palehozenychicty
04-16-2011, 01:01 AM
Another game that was waiting to be won, but poor execution and untimely hitting does them in. Even the bullpen was competent today.

Luckily, nobody is running away with anything right now. There's time, but a closer needs to be found.

As someone said, Ozzie has gotta start working with the teams' strengths. A good manager/coach makes adjustments. Simple as that.

JB98
04-16-2011, 01:12 AM
Bunting is not a strength of this team. Yet the Sox continue to bunt. :scratch:

This team isn't good at small ball. Ozzie would be better off admitting that and letting them swing away.

TDog
04-16-2011, 01:16 AM
I wouldn't have bunted in the eighth, but I probably would have bunted with Morel early in the game as much as I dislike the bunt. Still, I really don't have nearly as much trouble with the bunt call in the eighth as I do the execution. With the rain tonight, the basepaths had to be playing slow. It would have limited Pierre's ability to get a good jump and slowed him down on the way to second. As sloppy as the conditions were, bunting was an aggressive play that forced execution by the defense. Both Morel and Beckham would seem the type of hitters who should be able to get a bunt down.

The pitching matchup didn't favor the Sox at all. It's a credit to the Sox that they made the game so close. But really, it's unfortunate that they lost a game they should have won. They should have won because the pitching was pretty good. Ultimately they lost because a poor play by one of the best defenders, coupled with Dun and Quentin failing to get hits with runners on second and third and two outs, as well as Konerko not driving in a runner from second -- RBI chances for the big hitters in a game where the Sox only managed five hits.

doublem23
04-16-2011, 01:30 AM
Trying to stay positive through the frustration, but another nice little start for Humber. Hopefully he's put it together, he's a worthwhile bottom of the rotation kind of SP. Good to have, gives us some insurance for Peavy this year and for Buehrle and/or Jackson next year.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2011, 01:58 AM
I honestly do not understand how this one can be pinned on Ozzie. The Sox ran into a good pitcher today and had a guy who is barely a starter going for them. If the Sox won this game it would have been a nice bonus, but I wasn't expecting it. The defense sucked a bit in the fourth but I think that might be because the grass was wet and Morel couldn't get a grip on the ball.

CHISOXFAN13
04-16-2011, 02:03 AM
I honestly do not understand how this one can be pinned on Ozzie. The Sox ran into a good pitcher today and had a guy who is barely a starter going for them. If the Sox won this game it would have been a nice bonus, but I wasn't expecting it. The defense sucked a bit in the fourth but I think that might be because the grass was wet and Morel couldn't get a grip on the ball.

The Sox were one run down when Weaver was done against a struggling reliever in Rodney.

You get the reigning stolen base champion on base to lead off the eighth and instead of letting him try to swipe second, you bunt with arguably your best hitter.

I hate conceding games because of the pitching matchups. Happens far too often here. This game was there for the taken.

doublem23
04-16-2011, 02:04 AM
I honestly do not understand how this one can be pinned on Ozzie. The Sox ran into a good pitcher today and had a guy who is barely a starter going for them. If the Sox won this game it would have been a nice bonus, but I wasn't expecting it. The defense sucked a bit in the fourth but I think that might be because the grass was wet and Morel couldn't get a grip on the ball.

Just because people are upset with Ozzie doesn't mean that we're "pinning the loss on him." Obviously the Sox themselves had plenty of chances at the plate and in the field to put this game away and they failed, no one is blaming Ozzie for PK, Dunn, or Quentin leaving runners on base. He can't make them hit the ball. No one is blaming Ozzie for Morel's error. He can't field and the the ball for him.

It's becoming a problem, though, early in this year that Ozzie is consistently making bad decisions on the bench. Maybe they're not the kind of bad decisions that turn losses into wins on their own, but they add up. He's consistently asked the Sox to bunt when it's clear they're not a good bunting team. He's made some curious moves with this bullpen the last few games. While the execution ultimately comes down to the players, good managers find ways to put their players in the best chance to succeed. It seems like more and more likely, Ozzie's not willing to adjust his preferred style of baseball to cater to the kind of team we have.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2011, 02:23 AM
Just because people are upset with Ozzie doesn't mean that we're "pinning the loss on him." Obviously the Sox themselves had plenty of chances at the plate and in the field to put this game away and they failed, no one is blaming Ozzie for PK, Dunn, or Quentin leaving runners on base. He can't make them hit the ball. No one is blaming Ozzie for Morel's error. He can't field and the the ball for him.

It's becoming a problem, though, early in this year that Ozzie is consistently making bad decisions on the bench. Maybe they're not the kind of bad decisions that turn losses into wins on their own, but they add up. He's consistently asked the Sox to bunt when it's clear they're not a good bunting team. He's made some curious moves with this bullpen the last few games. While the execution ultimately comes down to the players, good managers find ways to put their players in the best chance to succeed. It seems like more and more likely, Ozzie's not willing to adjust his preferred style of baseball to cater to the kind of team we have.

There are a couple of people pinning this on Ozzie, as for the bunt in the eighth, if that call came from Ozzie I hated it. BUT! In watching the game on TV, the expression on Ozzie's face was unusual which makes me wonder if in fact Ozzie actually called for the bunt or if Gordon was bunting on his own (which if he was doing wasn't a bad idea as the grass was soaking wet, if the third baseman had to field it, it might have been a hit). What hurt more than that bunt though was Quentin swinging at ball four. The Sox still had runners on second and third with two outs then, a hit wins the ball game. We couldn't come through.

Dan H
04-16-2011, 03:22 AM
Correct.

Bunting over Juan Pierre to second negates pretty much the only tool Juan brings to the table. It's equally moronic because Gordon is one of the team's better hitters. Too bad Ozzie has to push his buttons and things like this will never change.

I didn't see this game but I've seen enough of the White Sox in the last two seasons to know this late inning bunting has not worked. Ozzie needs to realize that 2005 is history and it's time to move on.

Hopefully, the team turns it around. However, if it doesn't soon, a change of managers has to be considered. We can't expect another 25-5 streak to revive the season.

Falstaff
04-16-2011, 06:03 AM
Konerko, Quentin, and Rios combined 0-12 today.

Ugh. Just gotta power through it.

Ya. I got to wonder what in heck they were doing the night before; maybe
need to start coffee regimen before games. Ozzie too. "Brain ON".
Hot start was fun while it lasted tho. Somebody get these guys some coffee.

wassagstdu
04-16-2011, 07:59 AM
There are a couple of people pinning this on Ozzie, as for the bunt in the eighth, if that call came from Ozzie I hated it. BUT! In watching the game on TV, the expression on Ozzie's face was unusual which makes me wonder if in fact Ozzie actually called for the bunt or if Gordon was bunting on his own (which if he was doing wasn't a bad idea as the grass was soaking wet, if the third baseman had to field it, it might have been a hit).
I agree. If Beckham was bunting on his own it was a heck of a heads-up smart play. If Ozzie called it it was typical Ozzie dumb ****.

No wait, that's backwards. Whoever called it, it was (arguably) a smart play given the slow basepaths and wet grass. But Beckham failed to execute, not Ozzie.

kufram
04-16-2011, 08:37 AM
This post game thread seems to have become another "it's Ozzie's fault, it's not Ozzie's fault" debate, slightly. I still don't really think the manager, whatever his call is, can be blamed for players inability to execute. But one must remember that hitting is a measure of relatively minor success, i.e. if you get a base hit in 1 out of every 3 at bats you are a very good hitter, and a number of those hits will be seeing eye ground balls and bloopers that fall in. SO, in that light a hitter cannot be expected to succeed at what it is hoped he will do terribly often. Bunting is something that SHOULD have a high success rate in my opinion. That is why you use it.

Ozzie is great at being the face of the club, high on entertainment value. I don't know of many players, current or bygone, that rip him like some fans do.

Ozzie is NOT the best game manager around. How many games does that cost us over a season?.. probably not that many. Maybe about as many games as his calls win. Still I would like to have a manager that really knew how to use his players and the options available the way the great managers do.... they can win games for you, but there are not very many of them around these days.

To say Pierre should never be bunted to 2nd is an over-simplification. So many factors can go into a game situation that you need someone to A) be fully aware of the situation and B) have a good gut feeling for what is going on at that time, and C) be willing to make the call and live with the inevitable second-guessing by people who do not have to make the call. Ozzie is not great at A, not bad at B, but definitely very good at C.

Over By There
04-16-2011, 08:55 AM
There are a couple of people pinning this on Ozzie, as for the bunt in the eighth, if that call came from Ozzie I hated it. BUT! In watching the game on TV, the expression on Ozzie's face was unusual which makes me wonder if in fact Ozzie actually called for the bunt or if Gordon was bunting on his own (which if he was doing wasn't a bad idea as the grass was soaking wet, if the third baseman had to field it, it might have been a hit). What hurt more than that bunt though was Quentin swinging at ball four. The Sox still had runners on second and third with two outs then, a hit wins the ball game. We couldn't come through.

This so perfectly encapsulates the lunacy of the anti-Ozzie crowd it needs to be bronzed.

October26
04-16-2011, 09:16 AM
Yet another loss on the record, but at least I'm not completely pissed off about this one. Weaver has been outstanding, and if he was on, it was going to be a tough game to win.

There was some good news in this game. Pierre made a nice catch taking away a home run. Dunn got his first HR at US Cellular; Humber did all right and Gray stepped in and held his own for a couple of innings. Santos looked pretty good - lots of movement on his pitches, but looked a bit wild to me sometimes. Even Ohman did his job facing one batter.

Bad stuff - another error by Morel; TCQ leaving runners on 2nd and 3rd in the 8th swinging at a 3-0 pitch (ugh), and - geez - bunting at that point in the game - let Pierre steal. *that* really needs to go away.

Excellent post - thanks for this summary of what happened with the Sox game last night. I did not stay up to watch the end of it. I appreciate reading your factual comments and especially liked how you highlighted the good and bad news.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2011, 09:46 AM
Ozzie and his apologists fail to understand the following:

When Pierre is standing on first base, he is already in scoring position. He will score on a double.

Additionally, when you bunt there not only are you giving the other team one of your last six outs and forgoing the opportunity for Beckham to get a hit, you're also taking the bat out of Dunn's hands as he will get intentionally walked with a RHP on the mound. So you're essentially sacrificing the opportunity for your #2 and #3 hitters to swing the bat in the final two innings of a one run game AND giving up one of your last six outs. Furthermore, if last night was any indication, Ozzie will then pinch run for the #3 hitter thereby completely removing him from the game.

It's just so dumb.

veeter
04-16-2011, 09:46 AM
Almost as bad as a green light on 3-0 against a pitcher who was all over the place.

Ozzie has been as bad as the team.Ozzie has had a miserable start to this season. The bad thing is he makes the same mistakes over and over again, year after year. The main thing an AL manager has to do is manage his bullpen. Ozzie is abysmal at that. The fact that he calls a sacrifice to move baseball's stolen base champ to second base, he should be fired. Especially when the opponent can't throw anybody out AND his team CAN'T BUNT!!!!! The rock used to replace Homer Simpson down at the nuclear plant could do a better job.

kufram
04-16-2011, 10:04 AM
Ozzie and his apologists fail to understand the following:

When Pierre is standing on first base, he is already in scoring position. He will score on a double. That is why you have speed on the bench.

Additionally, when you bunt there not only are you giving the other team one of your last six outs and forgoing the opportunity for Beckham to get a hit, you're also taking the bat out of Dunn's hands as he will get intentionally walked with a RHP on the mound. So you're essentially sacrificing the opportunity for your #2 and #3 hitters to swing the bat in the final two innings of a one run game AND giving up one of your last six outs. Furthermore, if last night was any indication, Ozzie will then pinch run for the #3 hitter thereby completely removing him from the game.

It's just so dumb.

If Pierre is on first it takes a double to score him. You say that yourself. Get him to second and he scores on a grounder through the infield. Managers do not like putting the winning run on base very late in the game so maybe Dunn does get pitched to. If it's the 8th or 9th a lefty will come in to pitch to Dunn, and I pinch run for a Dunn late in a one run game.

I don't apologize for Ozzie. I don't need to. I don't like his mistakes. I don't like my own mistakes either and I'm aware that I don't know everything. It might not be the case that people don't understand your reasoning.... maybe they just don't agree with it. Nothing actually wrong with that. It is all subjective anyway. Just because you do A doesn't mean B and C necessarily happen afterward.

SCCWS
04-16-2011, 10:08 AM
Lets not forget that Pierre was only 4 for 8 in stolen bases this year. At the same time Gordon was hitting .160 in his last 20 abs. I would have let him swing as well but as fans we never want to bunt. Ozzie probably went w the numbers. Gordon should get off his rump and be out early today working on his bunting.

DickAllen72
04-16-2011, 10:08 AM
I've said it a dozen times going back to last year, but it needs to be said again, I guess. Why the hell do you give up an out to move over a proven base stealer?

I'm waiting for Oney to explain it to us. You know wants to. :cool:

doublem23
04-16-2011, 10:20 AM
Ya. I got to wonder what in heck they were doing the night before; maybe
need to start coffee regimen before games. Ozzie too. "Brain ON".
Hot start was fun while it lasted tho. Somebody get these guys some coffee.

Eh, it's just one game, I'm not worried yet. Jared Weaver's off to a real good start this year, sometimes you just have a ****ty game.

You ain't gonna win every night, which is why it's important to win the games that leading late.

A. Cavatica
04-16-2011, 10:29 AM
Correct.

Bunting over Juan Pierre to second negates pretty much the only tool Juan brings to the table. It's equally moronic because Gordon is one of the team's better hitters. Too bad Ozzie has to push his buttons and things like this will never change.

Ozzie bunted over Pierre regularly last year, wasting outs even though Pierre's main value is his ability to steal second base, and costing us games. Ozzie has never shown a propensity to learn from his mistakes. Anybody who thinks he is a good manager should watch closely: he'll do it again and again.

TDog
04-16-2011, 10:43 AM
Ozzie and his apologists fail to understand the following:

When Pierre is standing on first base, he is already in scoring position. He will score on a double.

Additionally, when you bunt there not only are you giving the other team one of your last six outs and forgoing the opportunity for Beckham to get a hit, you're also taking the bat out of Dunn's hands as he will get intentionally walked with a RHP on the mound. So you're essentially sacrificing the opportunity for your #2 and #3 hitters to swing the bat in the final two innings of a one run game AND giving up one of your last six outs. Furthermore, if last night was any indication, Ozzie will then pinch run for the #3 hitter thereby completely removing him from the game.

It's just so dumb.

Expecting Pierre to steal last night, as some do, would be pretty dumb. The basepaths are slower. The grass is wet. Bunting is an aggressive play in that situation. The Sox scored one run because of an Angels error last night and were in a position to score at least one more.

Criticizing Guillen for last night's 4-3 loss when you have Humber starting against one of the league's top pitchers is ridiculous. Sox hitters managed only five hits all night. The Ramirez hits weren't even hit well. And despite only having five hits, both Dunn and Quentin had opportunities with runners on second and third but failed to come through. Konerko had an opportunity with men on first and second. The best Sox hitters came up and left five men in scoring position in a game lost by one run. Guillen's managing put the White Sox in position to win the game, but the hitters didn't execute.

If Morel's bunt had been successful against a pitcher who had only given up a scratch hit to that point, the Sox would have had at least a two-run lead against the Angels.

And any manager managing with the Sox trailing by a run or tied in the late innings, you are going to pinch run for Dunn or Konerko if they get on base. What they might do in the 10th or 11th inning is irrelevant if they can't tie the game in the eighth or ninth.

The reflex to complain about the manager losing the game is dumb.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 10:53 AM
There are no indications anywhere that Beckham bunted on his own. Nothing in the newspapers and nothing from the beat writers I checked with. Just passing it along.

Also apparently Oney has been tweeting again off and on since Wednesday blaming Thornton for the Sox issues - the same Matt Thornton who pinned the Bobby Jenks mess on him.

Just something to watch for, this could be trouble brewing.

Lip

Brian26
04-16-2011, 10:54 AM
This so perfectly encapsulates the lunacy of the anti-Ozzie crowd it needs to be bronzed.

Yes, that's one of the silliest things I've read in a long time. Beckham was bunting "on his own" in the 8th to sacrifice a guy over to 2nd? You certainly wouldn't bunt on your own in that situation for a hit. If a bunt is on, the runner on 1st needs to know. No, the call came from the bench.

russ99
04-16-2011, 11:24 AM
A costly error and the run producers not producing in the clutch cost us this game, not any managerial decision.

Who swung for the fences on 3-0 with two on in scoring position?

If anything is consistent this year is that favorites get a pass and convenient targets get lambasted for anything.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2011, 11:49 AM
Russ:

You know I'm not an Ozzie-hater but TCQ didn't swing on his own according to the newspapers today, he got the green light from Ozzie.

Lip

Jim Shorts
04-16-2011, 12:25 PM
So, this team is 7-6 because Ozzie is a terrible manager?

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2011, 12:59 PM
Expecting Pierre to steal last night, as some do, would be pretty dumb. The basepaths are slower. The grass is wet. Bunting is an aggressive play in that situation. The Sox scored one run because of an Angels error last night and were in a position to score at least one more.

Criticizing Guillen for last night's 4-3 loss when you have Humber starting against one of the league's top pitchers is ridiculous. Sox hitters managed only five hits all night. The Ramirez hits weren't even hit well. And despite only having five hits, both Dunn and Quentin had opportunities with runners on second and third but failed to come through. Konerko had an opportunity with men on first and second. The best Sox hitters came up and left five men in scoring position in a game lost by one run. Guillen's managing put the White Sox in position to win the game, but the hitters didn't execute.

If Morel's bunt had been successful against a pitcher who had only given up a scratch hit to that point, the Sox would have had at least a two-run lead against the Angels.

And any manager managing with the Sox trailing by a run or tied in the late innings, you are going to pinch run for Dunn or Konerko if they get on base. What they might do in the 10th or 11th inning is irrelevant if they can't tie the game in the eighth or ninth.

The reflex to complain about the manager losing the game is dumb.


I never said that I wanted Pierre to steal. In fact, I would have opposed that too. All I want is for the manager to not offer outs to the opposing team. Pierre on first with the #2 hitter at the plate is a fine situation to work from. There's no need to get cute.

BainesHOF
04-16-2011, 01:00 PM
Ozzie and his apologists fail to understand the following:

When Pierre is standing on first base, he is already in scoring position. He will score on a double.

Additionally, when you bunt there not only are you giving the other team one of your last six outs and forgoing the opportunity for Beckham to get a hit, you're also taking the bat out of Dunn's hands as he will get intentionally walked with a RHP on the mound. So you're essentially sacrificing the opportunity for your #2 and #3 hitters to swing the bat in the final two innings of a one run game AND giving up one of your last six outs. Furthermore, if last night was any indication, Ozzie will then pinch run for the #3 hitter thereby completely removing him from the game.

It's just so dumb.


Yes, it is dumb. But you won't hear that from Hawk and Stone or the kiss-ass beat writers, who embarrass their profession on a daily basis in the post-game press conferences.

By the way, you can include Stone among the Ozzie apologists. He was on the Score yesterday dismissing any thoughts that Buehrle should have started the ninth in his 2-hitter.

BainesHOF
04-16-2011, 01:02 PM
So, this team is 7-6 because Ozzie is a terrible manager?

Yes, he is one of the big reasons.

Dan H
04-16-2011, 02:55 PM
Yes, it is dumb. But you won't hear that from Hawk and Stone or the kiss-ass beat writers, who embarrass their profession on a daily basis in the post-game press conferences.

By the way, you can include Stone among the Ozzie apologists. He was on the Score yesterday dismissing any thoughts that Buehrle should have started the ninth in his 2-hitter.

Stone rubs me the wrong way. Yes, he knows a great deal about baseball, but his arrogance gets to me. He never lets anyone forget what an expert he is. And he was wrong about Buehrle.

TDog
04-16-2011, 03:00 PM
I never said that I wanted Pierre to steal. In fact, I would have opposed that too. All I want is for the manager to not offer outs to the opposing team. Pierre on first with the #2 hitter at the plate is a fine situation to work from. There's no need to get cute.

The bottom line is that on a night when the Sox could only get five hits, including two on the infield, the 3-4-5 hitters left four men in scoring position -- five if you include Konerko leaving a man in scoring position that was also left by Quentin. In a one-run game, facing one of the league's best starters while starting your own default fifth starter, those are the situations you manage to put your teams into.

Of course, you don't know if Beckham would have reached base. You don't know if he would have hit into a double play. But at least two-thirds of the managers in baseball would have had Beckham bunting there. It's possible that many would not have given the green light to Quentin with runners on second and third and two outs with a 3-0 count, but not giving a hitter the take sign is not telling a hitter to swing. It is telling a hitter not to pass up a pitch he thinks he can drive for a hit. The Sox didn't need a walk there. They needed a hit.

If you want to blame anyone, Morel should be higher on the list than Guillen. Morel's error led to two unearned runs in a one-run game. And his failure to sacrifice cost the team a run offensively.

SBSoxFan
04-16-2011, 06:09 PM
No one has ever heard the adage "Play to win on the road, tie at home."? And when did MLB make a rule against stealing third? I don't understand the issue with Quentin getting the green light on 3-0, late in the game, down by 1, and with two guys in scoring position.

12 games in and it's time to back up the truck? It's gonna be a long season around here.

A. Cavatica
04-16-2011, 08:37 PM
So, this team is 7-6 because Ozzie is a terrible manager?

Actually, the team is 7-6 and Ozzie is a terrible manager. He isn't responsible for the neglect of the bullpen, but he's not an asset.

Nelfox02
04-16-2011, 08:39 PM
So, this team is 7-6 because Ozzie is a terrible manager?


he is a big part of it......most definitely.

Nellie_Fox
04-17-2011, 01:02 AM
Ozzie and his apologists fail to understand the following:

When Pierre is standing on first base, he is already in scoring position. He will score on a double.And you fail to understand that being able to score on a double is not being in scoring position. Scoring position is able to score on a single.

doublem23
04-17-2011, 01:07 AM
By the way, you can include Stone among the Ozzie apologists. He was on the Score yesterday dismissing any thoughts that Buehrle should have started the ninth in his 2-hitter.

You don't bite the hand that feeds. Come on, guys.

Nellie_Fox
04-17-2011, 01:22 AM
You don't bite the hand that feeds. Come on, guys.He has in the past. Just sayin'.

WhiteSox5187
04-17-2011, 03:57 AM
He has in the past. Just sayin'.

Are you suggesting that Steve Stone knows more about pitching than the members on this board? I find that hard to believe.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-17-2011, 08:19 AM
And you fail to understand that being able to score on a double is not being in scoring position. Scoring position is able to score on a single.

Dude, I fully understand what it traditionally means. Dunn hits about 60-70 singles a year. Considering all the doubles/homers Beckham is capable of hitting, its hardly preferable to have a guy on second for Dunn with one out versus one on first for Beckham with one out. Yes, runner on second is better than runner on first but zero outs is better than one out. Furthermore your down by one at the time so the opportunity cost to score more than one run is a factor as opposed to a situation like a tie game in the bottom of the ninth.

kufram
04-17-2011, 08:35 AM
The point is there is no exact science here. It is subjective and a matter of opinion, largely. Runner on second with one out is better than no one on and two outs. You cannot predict what will happen so you do what you think has the best chance to work out. That doesn't make you a genius if it does work out and you win, nor does it make you an idiot if the bunter blows it and you lose.

SBSoxFan
04-17-2011, 10:02 AM
The point is there is no exact science here. It is subjective and a matter of opinion, largely. Runner on second with one out is better than no one on and two outs. You cannot predict what will happen so you do what you think has the best chance to work out. That doesn't make you a genius if it does work out and you win, nor does it make you an idiot if the bunter blows it and you lose.

Plus, Pierre was 0-for-his-last-4 stolen base attempts, probably with at least 2 pick offs accounting for some of that, and it was a "slow track" because of the rain. Perhaps the manager took that into account as well.