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View Full Version : Jake Peavy: CLOSER?


BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Am I nuts or does this seem like the obvious solution? You couldn't ask for tougher stones.

Gavin
04-13-2011, 05:57 PM
No to Jake Peavy as closer.
Yes you are crazy. We aren't the Cubs.

SephClone89
04-13-2011, 05:58 PM
No to Jake Peavy as closer.
Yes you are crazy. We aren't the Cubs.

:rolleyes:

The Cubs are far from the only team to make a closer out of a starter.

hi im skot
04-13-2011, 05:59 PM
We might as well keep throwing **** against the wall to see if it sticks...

sox1970
04-13-2011, 06:00 PM
I think Humber closing is a better idea. Can't be any worse.

pudge
04-13-2011, 06:03 PM
Honestly, the MLB culture HAS to change and stop this non sense of a "closer" being used for every save situation. That will never happen so I don't know why I am even complaining. But I've just watched this crap for too many years. I don't know how many pitches Danks threw today, but could he not finish the game? I can no longer get interested in this team until they prove they have their "stuff" together. Last season wasn't even worth tuning in until they faced the NL and went on a run. Maybe a long baseball season just isn't for me anymore, I have adult ADD.

kevingrt
04-13-2011, 06:06 PM
I think Humber closing is a better idea. Can't be any worse.

I'm all for Alexei as the closer. He's got a rocket for an arm?

soxinem1
04-13-2011, 06:08 PM
:rolleyes:

The Cubs are far from the only team to make a closer out of a starter.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/eck.jpg

'You can say that again!!'

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 06:09 PM
No to Jake Peavy as closer.
Yes you are crazy. We aren't the Cubs.

John Smoltz

TDog
04-13-2011, 06:15 PM
:rolleyes:

The Cubs are far from the only team to make a closer out of a starter.

The Cubs, of course, didn't have the sense to turn Dennis Eckersley into a closer.

I think part of the problem is the closer mentality. With all due respect to the late Jerome Holtzman, I think the save rule has hurt baseball.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 06:51 PM
http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/5125/411361-samir_nagheenanajar_large.jpg

"This is horrible, this idea."

Seriously, you think that the $33m he's owed over the next two seasons is best spent on seeing if he can close? The man was brought in to be an ace. Anything else is a horrendous waste of money.

102605
04-13-2011, 06:57 PM
Seriously, you think that the $33m he's owed over the next two seasons is best spent on seeing if he can close? The man was brought in to be an ace. Anything else is a horrendous waste of money.

Anything? What is he can't go another 5 starts without having to be shut down again for his latest ailment. Maybe closing would actually limit his innings and keep him off the DL.

Not the worst idea ever.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 06:58 PM
http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/5125/411361-samir_nagheenanajar_large.jpg

"This is horrible, this idea."

Seriously, you think that the $33m he's owed over the next two seasons is best spent on seeing if he can close? The man was brought in to be an ace. Anything else is a horrendous waste of money.

I got news for you - he's not an ace anymore. What has he shown that would make you think otherwise besides beat up on the Nationals? Much of that $33m is already a sunk cost. If he can do the job, he would more valuable as a solid closer than as a mediocre starter liable to get hurt anytime out.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 06:59 PM
Anything? What is he can't go another 5 starts without having to be shut down again for his latest ailment. Maybe closing would actually limit his innings and keep him off the DL.

Not the worst idea ever.

You have to trust in his ability to stay healthy. Spending $33m on a closer is blatantly stupid, even if your name is Epstein or Cashman.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 07:01 PM
I got news for you - he's not an ace anymore. What has he shown that would make you think otherwise besides beat up on the Nationals? Much of that $33m is already a sunk cost. If he can do the job, he would more valuable as a solid closer than as a mediocre starter liable to get hurt anytime out.

Wow. One injury, and he's done? Good thing you run the team, right?

102605
04-13-2011, 07:01 PM
You have to trust in his ability to stay healthy. Spending $33m on a closer is blatantly stupid, even if your name is Epstein or Cashman.

Wow. One injury, and he's done? Good thing you run the team, right?

Good thing you don't!


Trusting Jake Peavy's ability to stay healthy is even more blatantly stupid.

He has made 20 appearances since August 9, 2009 when the White Sox aquired him. How much $$$ per start does that equal?

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 07:06 PM
Good thing you don't!


Trusting Jake Peavy's ability to stay healthy is even more blatantly stupid.

He has made 20 appearances since August 9, 2009 when the White Sox aquired him. How much $$$ per start does that equal?

One injury was an ankle injury from running the bases, and the other is a freak thing that, by all accounts, hasn't happened to anyone before. Saying that he can't pitch effectively as a starter anymore because of those two things is broken logic.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 07:22 PM
One injury was an ankle injury from running the bases, and the other is a freak thing that, by all accounts, hasn't happened to anyone before. Saying that he can't pitch effectively as a starter anymore because of those two things is broken logic.

The question is how can he most help the team? In the first 11 games the Sox have already lost 3 that they could have won with an effective closer. Absent a solution, it's reasonable to expect many more. Compared to how many games they would win with Peavy over random fifth starter and same crap bullpen it seems pretty clear that Peavy as an effective closer would lead to more overall victories even with random fifth starter. PLUS you'd be one more arm deeper in the pen overall.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 07:34 PM
The question is how can he most help the team? In the first 11 games the Sox have already lost 3 that they could have won with an effective closer. Absent a solution, it's reasonable to expect many more. Compared to how many games they would win with Peavy over random fifth starter and same crap bullpen it seems pretty clear that Peavy as an effective closer would lead to more overall victories even with random fifth starter. PLUS you'd be one more arm deeper in the pen overall.

Santos is doing an outstanding job, and would do just fine as a closer. Creating a glaring hole in the rotation to fix a hole in the bullpen is spinning your wheels at best. All we need is some competent bullpen management, not sweeping changes across the roster.

mcsoxfan
04-13-2011, 07:36 PM
I got news for you - he's not an ace anymore. What has he shown that would make you think otherwise besides beat up on the Nationals? Much of that $33m is already a sunk cost. If he can do the job, he would more valuable as a solid closer than as a mediocre starter liable to get hurt anytime out.

You have to remember who is the manager.
Guillen would overuse him.
Guillen would have given Hoyt Wilhelm a sore arm.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 07:51 PM
Santos is doing an outstanding job, and would do just fine as a closer. Creating a glaring hole in the rotation to fix a hole in the bullpen is spinning your wheels at best. All we need is some competent bullpen management, not sweeping changes across the roster.

I hope you're right and Santos renders the question moot. If not, I think it's an interesting idea.

Brian26
04-13-2011, 08:08 PM
The Cubs, of course, didn't have the sense to turn Dennis Eckersley into a closer.

They had Lee Smith at the time, so it wasn't really necessary.

doublem23
04-13-2011, 08:10 PM
One injury was an ankle injury from running the bases, and the other is a freak thing that, by all accounts, hasn't happened to anyone before. Saying that he can't pitch effectively as a starter anymore because of those two things is broken logic.

He wasn't anything special in that time in between, either. I'm not sold on the idea of having him close, but really, he's just a #5 starter now. So throw that price tag out the window, whatever he does for the Sox he's getting paid too much to do it.

Over By There
04-13-2011, 08:12 PM
Santos is doing an outstanding job, and would do just fine as a closer. Creating a glaring hole in the rotation to fix a hole in the bullpen is spinning your wheels at best. All we need is some competent bullpen management, not sweeping changes across the roster.

I'd argue that your contention that Santos "would do just fine as a closer" is no less a stretch than saying that Humber could "do just fine" as a fifth starter.

I'd further argue that it's far more stupid to continue to waste excellent starting pitching by having no one that can close than it is to over pay your closer.

Not saying I'd like to see this (in fact I hope you're right about Santos) but I think it's less stupid rhetoric than what's being spewed in the postgame thread.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 08:14 PM
He wasn't anything special in that time in between, either. I'm not sold on the idea of having him close, but really, he's just a #5 starter now. So throw that price tag out the window, whatever he does for the Sox he's getting paid too much to do it.

He was overcompensating for his ankle injury, and he wasn't throwing the ball the way he's used to. Once he went back to how he was comfortable, he started to look good. That's when he had the lat injury. I'm confident that when he comes back, he's going to be a lot better than people are expecting.

Brian26
04-13-2011, 08:14 PM
The Sox are short a couple of arms in the bullpen right now. Thornton might be messed up in the head for the rest of the year.

The idea is out of the box, but I like it.

Noneck
04-13-2011, 08:29 PM
They should try out all current bullpen options first. Then if none work and its getting later in the season anything should be an option. Its the We are all in season so it should be whatever it takes, from ownership on down.

DSpivack
04-13-2011, 08:31 PM
The Sox are short a couple of arms in the bullpen right now. Thornton might be messed up in the head for the rest of the year.

The idea is out of the box, but I like it.

Yeah, I think this is one of those ideas that is so crazy it could work.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2011, 08:35 PM
What in the flying ****?

No, the guy is a proven starter.

Brian26
04-13-2011, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I think this is one of those ideas that is so crazy it could work.

Peavy's the type of guy who wants to play everyday too. He might like the challenge.

voodoochile
04-13-2011, 08:38 PM
You're nuts...

Hey, you asked, I answered...:wink:

thomas35forever
04-13-2011, 08:52 PM
Not saying I agree with the OP, but is there really anyone besides Santos we can trust in the 'pen right now? At least Peavy has proven to be effective for at least a few innings (when healthy, anyway). Then again, his rehab is grooming him to be in the rotation once again. Maybe Humber could indeed be the answer?

Gavin
04-13-2011, 08:56 PM
While we're at it, why don't we just trade Peavy for a real closer and just keep the cash difference.

voodoochile
04-13-2011, 09:07 PM
While we're at it, why don't we just trade Peavy for a real closer and just keep the cash difference.


:o:


:reinsy:
"Great idea, let's just dump all the high paid players so I can pocket the difference. What the heck, the season ticket holders already bought their packages and there's been a ton of preseason single games seats sold. Heck, maybe I can convince Bud I'm poor and get some of those discretionary funds. He's always been a good friend. I like the way you think, Gavin. You want a job in charge of watching my checkbook get bigger?"

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 09:08 PM
Beyond insane.

Gavin
04-13-2011, 09:37 PM
:o:


:reinsy:
"Great idea, let's just dump all the high paid players so I can pocket the difference. What the heck, the season ticket holders already bought their packages and there's been a ton of preseason single games seats sold. Heck, maybe I can convince Bud I'm poor and get some of those discretionary funds. He's always been a good friend. I like the way you think, Gavin. You want a job in charge of watching my checkbook get bigger?"

Hey man, I'm just finding possible (but not plausible) ways of Peavy == closer.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 10:26 PM
While we're at it, why don't we just trade Peavy for a real closer and just keep the cash difference.

1) Nobody is going to give the Sox anything of value for the privilege of paying Peavy $33 mil much less a real closer

2) Even if they were willing to do so what do you mean by "just keep the cash difference"? Is said closer expected to be due more than $33 mil?

Brian26
04-13-2011, 10:32 PM
Beyond insane.

Not really. There's precedent set for this. Years before you were born, the Yankees moved Dave Righetti to the bullpen because they had too many starters. This was one year after Righetti pitched a 4th of July no-hitter. He went on to be an all-star closer and even topped Quisenberry's save record with 46 saves (until Thigpen beat it in 1990).

There are many examples since then and even before, but that's just one that stands out in my mind.

The question right now is would the Sox benefit more with Peavy pitching once every five days or possibly once every other day to end games. With the Sox offense as solid as it has been, Humber might be able to fill the 5th starter role.

It's out of the box. I'm not saying I 100% agree with it, but it's not a "beyond insane" idea.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 11:16 PM
Not really. There's precedent set for this. Years before you were born, the Yankees moved Dave Righetti to the bullpen because they had too many starters. This was one year after Righetti pitched a 4th of July no-hitter. He went on to be an all-star closer and even topped Quisenberry's save record with 46 saves (until Thigpen beat it in 1990).

There are many examples since then and even before, but that's just one that stands out in my mind.

The question right now is would the Sox benefit more with Peavy pitching once every five days or possibly once every other day to end games. With the Sox offense as solid as it has been, Humber might be able to fill the 5th starter role.

It's out of the box. I'm not saying I 100% agree with it, but it's not a "beyond insane" idea.

For the money that is owed to Jake, it is.

Falstaff
04-13-2011, 11:18 PM
I like this idea, make Jake the closer.
And let me just remind you, two words: Rich Gossage =
starter turned closer, and good one at that.

sox1970
04-13-2011, 11:21 PM
It's easier to monitor Peavy to start every 5th day. I don't want him throwing every day, warming up, sitting down, getting back up, pitching two days in a row, etc. Pass on that.

Milw
04-13-2011, 11:23 PM
For the money that is owed to Jake, it is.
I don't have the salary figures in front of me, but my guess is John Smoltz made a pretty good salary relative to the going rate of the day when he was closing games for Atlanta. This situation is actually very comparable to that one a half-decade or so ago. Ultimately, he's paid to help the team win games, and if he can do that better as the closer, then it's nuts to refuse to do it.

Random Fifth Starter could probably win 9-12 games with this offense. What's a healthy Jake Peavy win? 14 or 15, tops. Don't you think those handful of extra wins would be made up for, and then some, by having a lockdown closer?

At the very least, why not put him there for a couple months while he gets his arm strength back? Buy some time for Thornton to get his head figured out, then move Peavy back to the rotation around the All Star break and reinsert an effective Thornton.

This seems like an obvious move, the more I think about it.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 11:25 PM
It's easier to monitor Peavy to start every 5th day. I don't want him throwing every day, warming up, sitting down, getting back up, pitching two days in a row, etc. Pass on that.

Yeah, that's another good thing to bring up. Given Jake's injury history, I think having him in the bullpen would simply exacerbate things.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 11:26 PM
I don't have the salary figures in front of me, but my guess is John Smoltz made a pretty good salary relative to the going rate of the day when he was closing games for Atlanta. This situation is actually very comparable to that one a half-decade or so ago. Ultimately, he's paid to help the team win games, and if he can do that better as the closer, then it's nuts to refuse to do it.

Random Fifth Starter could probably win 9-12 games with this offense. What's a healthy Jake Peavy win? 14 or 15, tops. Don't you think those handful of extra wins would be made up for, and then some, by having a lockdown closer?

At the very least, why not put him there for a couple months while he gets his arm strength back? Buy some time for Thornton to get his head figured out, then move Peavy back to the rotation around the All Star break and reinsert an effective Thornton.

This seems like an obvious move, the more I think about it.

Try 16-20 with the possibility of a Cy Young.

Unless you meant after he comes off the DL.

DSpivack
04-13-2011, 11:28 PM
Try 16-20 with the possibility of a Cy Young.

Unless you meant after he comes off the DL.

I think those days are gone for Peavy. I don't trust his arm to go that deep into games anymore, or to make every single start in a season, or to be as consistent as he was at the height of his career in San Diego.

sox1970
04-13-2011, 11:32 PM
I think those days are gone for Peavy. I don't trust his arm to go that deep into games anymore, or to make every single start in a season, or to be as consistent as he was at the height of his career in San Diego.

Yep, when he gets back, I just want him to be one of the 5 starters. If he can get 25 starts, I'll take 16-18 quality starts and a 165 innings.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 12:06 AM
Try 16-20 with the possibility of a Cy Young.

Unless you meant after he comes off the DL.

Unless you're 12, that's totally unrealistic. I remember thinking Harold Baines would hit 30 HR......

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 12:22 AM
Unless you're 12, that's totally unrealistic. I remember thinking Harold Baines would hit 30 HR......

With this offense, and Jake healthy, it's not foolhardy to believe he can win 16-20 games for this team in a full season. The guy won the triple crown for pitchers just over three years ago.

Once again, health must be stressed. When healthy, Jake's an ace. And with this offense, he doesn't really need to pitch like an ace to get close to 20 wins.

Taliesinrk
04-14-2011, 02:11 AM
Peavy's the type of guy who wants to play everyday too. He might like the challenge.

The more I consider it, the more it seems like it's not as far-fetched as I originally thought. The two things that stick out in favor of an idea like this are #1. Peavy's mentality. His personality defines that of a closer... in fact, I'd argue that his make-up may sometimes be opposite of what you'd look for in an "ideal" starter. #2. He loves to try to strike guys out. Without any data, it really seems like there are a lot of games Peavy gets stuck in the 5th-7th innings because his pitch counts get so high (he's definitely not a guy who loves contact). Over the course of a season, this takes a toll on a starter's arm, but is exactly what you look for in a closer.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 02:25 AM
The more I consider it, the more it seems like it's not as far-fetched as I originally thought. The two things that stick out in favor of an idea like this are #1. Peavy's mentality. His personality defines that of a closer... in fact, I'd argue that his make-up may sometimes be opposite of what you'd look for in an "ideal" starter. #2. He loves to try to strike guys out. Without any data, it really seems like there are a lot of games Peavy gets stuck in the 5th-7th innings because his pitch counts get so high (he's definitely not a guy who loves contact). Over the course of a season, this takes a toll on a starter's arm, but is exactly what you look for in a closer.

If any Sox starter were to close, I'd say Jackson. His stuff is more what you'd see from a closer. Also, he's a big strikeout guy, especially after Coop got his hands on him.

I for one am not for putting any of our starters in the closers role though.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 07:19 AM
If any Sox starter were to close, I'd say Jackson. His stuff is more what you'd see from a closer. Also, he's a big strikeout guy, especially after Coop got his hands on him.

I for one am not for putting any of our starters in the closers role though.

Ha, Jackson's been arguably the best SP since the Sox acquired him. Look, we all know you love Jake Peavy, but whatever he does for the Sox, he's going to be horrendously overpaid, so it may as well be whatever helps the team out as much as possible.

tstrike2000
04-14-2011, 08:16 AM
With this offense, and Jake healthy, it's not foolhardy to believe he can win 16-20 games for this team in a full season. The guy won the triple crown for pitchers just over three years ago.

Once again, health must be stressed. When healthy, Jake's an ace. And with this offense, he doesn't really need to pitch like an ace to get close to 20 wins.

Like Spivak said, I think the days of Peavy getting to that level may be passed him. To get 16-20 wins, even with a good offense, a pitcher has to make 30-32 starts and Peavy's health may not let him get anywhere near that.

Lillian
04-14-2011, 09:29 AM
Does anyone here have an educated opinion as to whether closing would pose a greater or lesser risk to Peavy's health?

doublem23
04-14-2011, 09:32 AM
Does anyone here have an educated opinion as to whether closing would pose a greater or lesser risk to Peavy's health?

Nobody is going to have a conclusive opinion on that, you'd get conflicting reports from doctors. Peavy's injury and rehab are, for the most part, completely uncharted waters. I mean, it seems obvious that working fewer innings over the season should result in less wear and tear, but if Peavy can give the Sox 6-7 solid innings every 5 days, then his spot is in the rotation.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 09:47 AM
Like Spivak said, I think the days of Peavy getting to that level may be passed him. To get 16-20 wins, even with a good offense, a pitcher has to make 30-32 starts and Peavy's health may not let him get anywhere near that.

You can't just make that assumption and throw him into the closers role.

Like I said, I don't feel that any of our starters should be thrown into the bullpen because they're too valuable for the team. We can't just assume Jake can't go 7 innings every fifth day anymore. Give him a shot to prove himself before you jump to conclusions.

If Jake comes back and shows himself to be the ace we traded for, I don't think anyone would want him in the bullpen.

Hartman
04-14-2011, 09:48 AM
Peavy is a starter
Thorton is the setup man
Sale is the closer

PERIOD.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 10:03 AM
You can't just make that assumption and throw him into the closers role.

Like I said, I don't feel that any of our starters should be thrown into the bullpen because they're too valuable for the team. We can't just assume Jake can't go 7 innings every fifth day anymore. Give him a shot to prove himself before you jump to conclusions.

At this point, it's a bigger assumption that Jake can give the Sox 7 good innings, anymore. As has been pointed, since he was acquired in 2009, he's made 20 starts for the Sox, and averages less than 7 IP/GS. His peripherals (WHIP, K/9) have been trending down since his Cy Young season in 2007, and he'll be 30 years old in 6 weeks.

It's time to give up on this fantasy that he's still a #1/ace type SP. Maybe he is, maybe he'll come back and really will dominate, but there's basically no reason to believe he can.

Peavy is a starter
Thorton is the setup man
Sale is the closer

PERIOD.

This is unimaginitive, rigid thinking that I hope is avoided. The Sox should be looking at this situation like it's a crisis. 12 games into the season, we have lost 3 of them that we lead in the 9th, and another 1 that we lead in the 8th. If the Sox could find someone who could get three god damn outs in the 9th inning, we'd by 10-2 and have a commanding lead over the Twins and Tigers. As it is, we're treading water with them. I know it's only 2 weeks in the season, but this is a big problem for this team.

I'm not saying I think Jake should definitely be looked at as a potential closer, but the Sox need to start thinking up some solutions. Slotting 3 guys into roles and stamping it with a PERIOD shows that you've done no constructive thinking about the subject, and just believe things should work because that's the way they should work.

Gavin
04-14-2011, 11:27 AM
At this point, it's a bigger assumption that Jake can give the Sox 7 good innings, anymore. As has been pointed, since he was acquired in 2009, he's made 20 starts for the Sox, and averages less than 7 IP/GS. His peripherals (WHIP, K/9) have been trending down since his Cy Young season in 2007, and he'll be 30 years old in 6 weeks.

It's time to give up on this fantasy that he's still a #1/ace type SP. Maybe he is, maybe he'll come back and really will dominate, but there's basically no reason to believe he can.


Jake Peavy hasn't even played a game in 2011 and you're already telling us what he's capable of doing this year. How is that not rigid in itself?

doublem23
04-14-2011, 11:34 AM
Jake Peavy hasn't even played a game in 2011 and you're already telling us what he's capable of doing this year. How is that not rigid in itself?

Where did I do that?

All I (believed) I said was that no one knows what Jake can do this year, if he can give the Sox 7 quality innings every 5 games, then he should be in the rotation because that's where he best helps the team, but if he can't maybe we're better off exploring some radical options with him, like moving him to the bullpen, instead of forcing him to continue starting because Jake Peavy is a starter. PERIOD.

That's all I was trying to get at.

Gavin
04-14-2011, 11:41 AM
Where did I do that?

All I (believed) I said was that no one knows what Jake can do this year, if he can give the Sox 7 quality innings every 5 games, then he should be in the rotation because that's where he best helps the team, but if he can't maybe we're better off exploring some radical options with him, like moving him to the bullpen, instead of forcing him to continue starting because Jake Peavy is a starter. PERIOD.

That's all I was trying to get at.

I don't think anybody in our rotation is going to give the Sox 7 quality innings every time they pitch.

Lip Man 1
04-14-2011, 11:47 AM
It's not going to happen now but when Jackson was first acquired there was talk in the organization about making him the closer.

Lip

Harry Chappas
04-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Some of you are advocating Peavy-to-closer based on his assumed diminished skills as a starter. Why are you so damn sure he is going to be a dominant closer? Because he's so "grindy"?

A) Let him work his way back into the rotation and see if he can resume his career as an ace.

B) Give Sergio Santos a chance to close.

If both of the above are abject failures...then this idea is something to possibly consider. But to pencil in Peavy as a closure before giving A and B a shot is pure stupidity.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't think anybody in our rotation is going to give the Sox 7 quality innings every time they pitch.

Right, obviously an oversimplification for brevity's sake. If Jake can give us 7 innings every 5 games, not be a complete trainwreck, and maintain his health, then he should be a starter. If that kind of workload is too much for his arm, then the Sox should explore other options.

Bob Roarman
04-14-2011, 12:17 PM
Hell of a contract for a closer.

tstrike2000
04-14-2011, 12:47 PM
You can't just make that assumption and throw him into the closers role.

Like I said, I don't feel that any of our starters should be thrown into the bullpen because they're too valuable for the team. We can't just assume Jake can't go 7 innings every fifth day anymore. Give him a shot to prove himself before you jump to conclusions.

If Jake comes back and shows himself to be the ace we traded for, I don't think anyone would want him in the bullpen.

I'm not really making any assumptions at this point, nor did I say put him in the closers role. I'm not making assumptions because we can't say whether or not Jake can take the ball every fifth day and go 6-7 innings consistantly. That would be nice, but who knows with his current condition, lat muscle stability, and injury history. It's a big if.

Rohan
04-14-2011, 02:09 PM
If any one starter was going to be converted to a closer it would be Edwin Jackson. And I can tell you, after the way he pitched the first two games of the season, that's just not going to happen.

102605
04-14-2011, 02:36 PM
Hell of a contract for a closer.

K-Rod makes 17.5 million. Others make close to it.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 02:44 PM
K-Rod makes 17.5 million. Others make close to it.

That really doesn't help the argument. That's one of the reasons why the Mets are in trouble right now.

sullythered
04-14-2011, 02:50 PM
If any one starter was going to be converted to a closer it would be Edwin Jackson. And I can tell you, after the way he pitched the first two games of the season, that's just not going to happen.
With Edwin Jackson's inconsistent control, he is literally the last guy in our rotation that I would want in a late inning bullpen situation.

Harry Chappas
04-14-2011, 03:01 PM
With Edwin Jackson's inconsistent control, he is literally the last guy in our rotation that I would want in a late inning bullpen situation.

I agree. He also seems to run a little hot.

They need to see if Santos is the answer. If he's not, give Sale a crack and maybe even Crain. Anyone but Thornton. I don't even trust him against lefties in a set-up role.

delben91
04-14-2011, 03:18 PM
I agree. He also seems to run a little hot.

They need to see if Santos is the answer. If he's not, give Sale a crack and maybe even Crain. Anyone but Thornton. I don't even trust him against lefties in a set-up role.

In that case he's a waste of a roster spot and sholud be released, right?

doublem23
04-14-2011, 03:26 PM
I agree. He also seems to run a little hot.

They need to see if Santos is the answer. If he's not, give Sale a crack and maybe even Crain. Anyone but Thornton. I don't even trust him against lefties in a set-up role.

In that case he's a waste of a roster spot and sholud be released, right?

I assume the OP meant righties, but even that's ridiculous. Thornton's career L/R splits:

vs. RHB - .232/.320/.357
vs. LHB - .225/.298/.359

Harry Chappas
04-14-2011, 05:42 PM
In that case he's a waste of a roster spot and sholud be released, right?

Yeah, because that makes sense. I don't trust him at the moment. That doesn't mean he can't get his act together and once again become an affective reliever.

Taliesinrk
04-14-2011, 05:49 PM
For all the people saying that if anyone should be a closer, it's Jackson, I agree that he would be the most likely candidate based upon his "stuff", but because he's currently in a position where he is successful as a starter (and part of being "successful"), that's where he should be. Peavy has the potential to be successful, but his success has been repeatedly hindered due to his lack of health. His type of pitching may not be as ideal as Jackson's for the closer's role, but when you take into account all the factors, I think there's a pretty good argument as to why Peavy better fits there, right now.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 06:01 PM
For all the people saying that if anyone should be a closer, it's Jackson, I agree that he would be the most likely candidate based upon his "stuff", but because he's currently in a position where he is successful as a starter (and part of being "successful"), that's where he should be. Peavy has the potential to be successful, but his success has been repeatedly hindered due to his lack of health. His type of pitching may not be as ideal as Jackson's for the closer's role, but when you take into account all the factors, I think there's a pretty good argument as to why Peavy better fits there, right now.

The argument is based on the assumption that he won't be able to get past, at most, six innings a start every fifth day. We don't know that.

We also don't know he'd be successful as a closer. As we've painfully seen, the three outs in the ninth are the hardest to get no matter what lineup you're facing.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 06:16 PM
The argument is based on the assumption that he won't be able to get past, at most, six innings a start every fifth day. We don't know that.

We also don't know he'd be successful as a closer. As we've painfully seen, the three outs in the ninth are the hardest to get no matter what lineup you're facing.

The argument is based on more than just that assumption. It's also based on maintaining his health and much more importantly on the team's current needs.

Yesterday you had Peavy penciled in for 16-20 wins and Cy Young contention and today you're questioning his ability to get the final the three outs - okay. :scratch:

Yes, the final three outs are more difficult to get than others for random relievers but I'm not convinced that someone like Jake Peavy would go out there and piss his pants because the game's on the line. In fact I'm quite confident he wouldn't which is why I like him in that role if needed.

Even without Peavy in the rotation, I think the current five can get this team to the playoffs given an adequate bullpen. With Peavy as closer the bullpen would go from crappy to awesome simply by slotting everyone down a role. I would LOVE to enter the playoffs with the top 4 starters and a bullpen of Santos, Crain, Pena, Thornton, Sale and Peavy.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 06:21 PM
The argument is based on more than just that assumption. It's also based on maintaining his health and much more importantly on the team's current needs.

Yesterday you had Peavy penciled in for 16-20 wins and Cy Young contention and today you're questioning his ability to get the final the three outs - okay. :scratch:

Yes, the final three outs are more difficult to get than others for random relievers but I'm not convinced that someone like Jake Peavy would go out there and piss his pants because the game's on the line. In fact I'm quite confident he wouldn't which is why I like him in that role if needed.

Even without Peavy in the rotation, I think the current five can get this team to the playoffs given an adequate bullpen. With Peavy as closer the bullpen would go from crappy to awesome simply by slotting everyone down a role. I would LOVE to enter the playoffs with the top 4 starters and a bullpen of Santos, Crain, Thornton, Sale and Peavy.

The 9th inning is an entirely different beast. You also have to take into account his ability to get warm. Some pitchers take longer to get into a rhythm and aren't at the peak of their game until the middle innings.

For example:

Looking at Jake's splits, his ERA is best in the middle of the game.

He has a 3.11 ERA from pitches 46-60

2.91 61-75

1.95 76-90

This as opposed to a 3.84 ERA on his first 15 pitches.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6872/situational;_ylt=An5V9X9n2rcAWzxAtX3Il2OFCLcF?year =career&type=Pitching)

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 06:38 PM
The 9th inning is an entirely different beast. You also have to take into account his ability to get warm. Some pitchers take longer to get into a rhythm and aren't at the peak of their game until the middle innings.

For example:

Looking at Jake's splits, his ERA is best in the middle of the game.

He has a 3.11 ERA from pitches 46-60

2.91 61-75

1.95 76-90

This as opposed to a 3.84 ERA on his first 15 pitches.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6872/situational;_ylt=An5V9X9n2rcAWzxAtX3Il2OFCLcF?year =career&type=Pitching)

Meh, I would argue that pitches 1-15 are guaranteed to have been against the top of the lineup. Additionally, they include innings from bad outings as well as good outings. Pitches 76-90 don't include innings where he had a bad outing and didn't last that long (although I'll agree ahead of time there probably weren't many outings like that). Also, his WHIP in pitches 1-15 was 1.12 which is in fact better than the 1.30 he posts in pitches 76-90 despite the ERA differential. K/9 and BAA also don't show any differences. Overall, I don't think it proves anything.

Actually, given that pitches 1-15 are guaranteed to have been against the top of the lineup and not a against a single pitcher and the fact that his WHIP, BAA, and K/9 hold steady against other pitch number increments that are guaranteed to include bottom of the order and pitcher ABs you could make the argument that he's at his best when starting the game despite the ERA differential.

Falstaff
04-14-2011, 08:56 PM
The argument is based on the assumption that he won't be able to get past, at most, six innings a start every fifth day. We don't know that.

We also don't know he'd be successful as a closer. As we've painfully seen, the three outs in the ninth are the hardest to get no matter what lineup you're facing.

Bottom line, even if Peavy is capable of sustaining quality start / workload this season (doubtful) if there is not a quality closer to come in and finish out the game, Peavy's 7 solid innings can easily be wasted. And he wont be available to contribute to the team goal of winning games for another 5 days. As a closer (Sox obviously need), Jake could potentially have a hand in say, 25 victories before the season is out. With far fewer innings on the shoulder. Need adult leadership in this position.

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 08:58 PM
Bottom line, even if Peavy is capable of sustaining quality start / workload this season (doubtful) if there is not a quality closer to come in and finish out the game, Peavy's 7 solid innings can easily be wasted. And he wont be available to contribute to the team goal of winning games for another 5 days. As a closer (Sox obviously need), Jake could potentially have a hand in say, 25 victories before the season is out. With far fewer innings on the shoulder. Need adult leadership in this position.

You could say that for basically any starter on this staff.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 10:25 PM
You could say that for basically any starter on this staff.

Right, but you can also pretty comfortably pencil the other 4 starters in for 200 innings. You think you can do that for Jake?

JermaineDye05
04-14-2011, 10:38 PM
Right, but you can also pretty comfortably pencil the other 4 starters in for 200 innings. You think you can do that for Jake?

No, but I'm willing to at least give him the chance because I feel that when healthy, he will more than likely give you a better chance to win than Buehrle and Floyd.

If, when he gets back, he shows that he can't go more than five innings a start, sure it's an idea to try. That is, of course, if the bullpen is still not settled.

You have to let him prove himself though.

If the Sox make it to the post season, I think a rotation that consists of Danks/Floyd/Jackson/Peavy is much stronger than Buehrle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson

doublem23
04-14-2011, 10:45 PM
No, but I'm willing to at least give him the chance because I feel that when healthy, he will more than likely give you a better chance to win than Buehrle and Floyd.

If, when he gets back, he shows that he can't go more than five innings a start, sure it's an idea to try. That is, of course, if the bullpen is still not settled.

You have to let him prove himself though.

If the Sox make it to the post season, I think a rotation that consists of Danks/Floyd/Jackson/Peavy is much stronger than Buehrle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson

Well that's what everyone's been saying, if Jake's healthy and can give you quality starts he belongs in the rotation, but there's a SERIOUS QUESTION as to whether or not he'll ever be able to do that. Literally, nobody knows what the recovery from this injury is. There just seems to be a lot of impulsive dismissal of the idea because "Jake's a STARTER" and we have to pigeonhole him into that role no matter what. John Smoltz was 10x the SP Jake Peavy ever was and he closed for the Braves for years because that's what the team needed and that's what suited him best at that time. Whatever Jake can give this team will be huge, and considering our bullpen is a total mess right now, I don't think it would be the worst idea if that's what the Sox wanted to do.

Moses_Scurry
04-15-2011, 09:14 AM
One issue with this proposal is that we still really don't know when Peavy will be back. It could be another three weeks before he is back. It could be longer. While I would love to have the Sox win every game by double digits in that time, it is likely that Sox will need a closer for multiple games. It is also possible that in those hypothetical three weeks, one of Santos, et al. will step up and take the role for the rest of the season. Then this will all be a moot point. While Peavy may be good in the closer role, I would rather they figure it out before he gets back. I can't take too many more of these blown ninth innings.

Harry Chappas
04-15-2011, 04:02 PM
Bottom line, even if Peavy is capable of sustaining quality start / workload this season (doubtful) if there is not a quality closer to come in and finish out the game, Peavy's 7 solid innings can easily be wasted. And he wont be available to contribute to the team goal of winning games for another 5 days. As a closer (Sox obviously need), Jake could potentially have a hand in say, 25 victories before the season is out. With far fewer innings on the shoulder. Need adult leadership in this position.

We don't yet know if we "need" a new closer. Why not give Santos a crack at it before we start juggling our rotation? It may be that simple.

We featured 3 different closers in 2005 and none of them carried super star pedigrees. I'm not going to panic - yet.

doublem23
04-15-2011, 04:13 PM
We don't yet know if we "need" a new closer. Why not give Santos a crack at it before we start juggling our rotation? It may be that simple.

We featured 3 different closers in 2005 and none of them carried super star pedigrees. I'm not going to panic - yet.

Everything points to Sergio getting the next shot to close, which is fine, he's earned that chance by not totally sucking like everyone else in the 'pen, I think most of us are approaching this Jake Peavy closing? situation without complete and utter disdain are assuming that if the Sox need to tap Peavy for the closer's role, it's because Sergio couldn't cut it, either. Obviously if he does, this is a moot point.

Though, given how poorly Thornton and (sorta) Sale have pitched, plus moving Santos to the closer's role makes Crain your #2 RHP in the bullpen, we might need another bullpen arm, anyway.

:dunno:

Can we at least agree there's some merit to this idea if the Sox can't find a closer out of their current bullpen arms and if Jake can't throw a starter's workload this season? Nobody is saying Jake has to stay in the bullpen for the rest of his career, but he just might not be ready for the rotation this season. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.

DumpJerry
04-15-2011, 04:19 PM
Everything points to Sergio getting the next shot to close, which is fine, he's earned that chance by not totally sucking like everyone else in the 'pen, I think most of us are approaching this Jake Peavy closing? situation without complete and utter disdain are assuming that if the Sox need to tap Peavy for the closer's role, it's because Sergio couldn't cut it, either. Obviously if he does, this is a moot point.

Though, given how poorly Thornton and (sorta) Sale have pitched, plus moving Santos to the closer's role makes Crain your #2 RHP in the bullpen, we might need another bullpen arm, anyway.

:dunno:

Can we at least agree there's some merit to this idea if the Sox can't find a closer out of their current bullpen arms and if Jake can't throw a starter's workload this season? Nobody is saying Jake has to stay in the bullpen for the rest of his career, but he just might not be ready for the rotation this season. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.
You have a point. If Humber has more outings like his first one, it would be an easy decision to make. However, Humber might have benefited from not having been scouted too much when he made his first start, so we really don't know what we have in him yet.

voodoochile
04-15-2011, 04:22 PM
Everything points to Sergio getting the next shot to close, which is fine, he's earned that chance by not totally sucking like everyone else in the 'pen, I think most of us are approaching this Jake Peavy closing? situation without complete and utter disdain are assuming that if the Sox need to tap Peavy for the closer's role, it's because Sergio couldn't cut it, either. Obviously if he does, this is a moot point.

Though, given how poorly Thornton and (sorta) Sale have pitched, plus moving Santos to the closer's role makes Crain your #2 RHP in the bullpen, we might need another bullpen arm, anyway.

:dunno:

Can we at least agree there's some merit to this idea if the Sox can't find a closer out of their current bullpen arms and if Jake can't throw a starter's workload this season? Nobody is saying Jake has to stay in the bullpen for the rest of his career, but he just might not be ready for the rotation this season. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.

I'd rather the Sox trade Humber for a closer and leave Peavey in the rotation.

Falstaff
04-15-2011, 04:44 PM
Ya, agreed that Sox must get some stability in BP ASAP.
We will know what Peavy is generally capable of doing (this year) as SP after I'd guess 3 outings? Can't imagine he's going to have the stamina this year
for that role, would potentially be huge addition to the back door tho.

doublem23
04-15-2011, 04:51 PM
I'd rather the Sox trade Humber for a closer and leave Peavey in the rotation.

Humber has no value, we just signed him for a league minimum contract less than 1/2 a year ago, I don't think 1 good outing against a pretty bad team has suddenly changed the minds of execs in 29 other offices.

delben91
04-15-2011, 04:55 PM
Everything points to Sergio getting the next shot to close, which is fine, he's earned that chance by not totally sucking like everyone else in the 'pen, I think most of us are approaching this Jake Peavy closing? situation without complete and utter disdain are assuming that if the Sox need to tap Peavy for the closer's role, it's because Sergio couldn't cut it, either. Obviously if he does, this is a moot point.

Though, given how poorly Thornton and (sorta) Sale have pitched, plus moving Santos to the closer's role makes Crain your #2 RHP in the bullpen, we might need another bullpen arm, anyway.

:dunno:

Can we at least agree there's some merit to this idea if the Sox can't find a closer out of their current bullpen arms and if Jake can't throw a starter's workload this season? Nobody is saying Jake has to stay in the bullpen for the rest of his career, but he just might not be ready for the rotation this season. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.

That also assumes both Thornton and Sale remain at their current poor performance level for the whole season in non-closer roles. Which at least in Thornton's case is at odds with his recent career history.

Harry Chappas
04-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Everything points to Sergio getting the next shot to close, which is fine, he's earned that chance by not totally sucking like everyone else in the 'pen, I think most of us are approaching this Jake Peavy closing? situation without complete and utter disdain are assuming that if the Sox need to tap Peavy for the closer's role, it's because Sergio couldn't cut it, either. Obviously if he does, this is a moot point.

Though, given how poorly Thornton and (sorta) Sale have pitched, plus moving Santos to the closer's role makes Crain your #2 RHP in the bullpen, we might need another bullpen arm, anyway.

:dunno:

Can we at least agree there's some merit to this idea if the Sox can't find a closer out of their current bullpen arms and if Jake can't throw a starter's workload this season? Nobody is saying Jake has to stay in the bullpen for the rest of his career, but he just might not be ready for the rotation this season. It's not out of the realm of possibilities.

I whole-heartedly agree. God help us though if we do have to move Peavy to the pen as this would pretty much mean we're in a free-fall, throw-crap-at-the-wall mode.

doublem23
04-18-2011, 04:42 PM
I whole-heartedly agree. God help us though if we do have to move Peavy to the pen as this would pretty much mean we're in a free-fall, throw-crap-at-the-wall mode.

Humber has pitched well enough in his 1st two starts that I don't think he's a completely useless MLB pitcher and fine (for now) in the 5th starter's spot. It's at least better than the good ol' Scot Schoenewes/Dan Wright/Josh Stewart/Mike Porzio days.

If the SP isn't as good as its supposed to be, it won't be on Humber's shoulders.

Sargeant79
04-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Humber has pitched well enough in his 1st two starts that I don't think he's a completely useless MLB pitcher and fine (for now) in the 5th starter's spot. It's at least better than the good ol' Scot Schoenewes/Dan Wright/Josh Stewart/Mike Porzio days.

If the SP isn't as good as its supposed to be, it won't be on Humber's shoulders.

I agree with this. If Peavy is ok once he comes back, I think moving Humber to the pen might help stabilize things, providing someone steps up and grabs the closer's role. Like most people it seems, I think Santos should get the next shot. Let Thornton, Sale, and Crain settle in to be the 7th and 8th inning guys and hope they get their heads on straight. If that happens, this can still be a really good bullpen this year.

SI1020
04-18-2011, 10:17 PM
Jake Peavy is hurt and his career is in jeopardy.

Noneck
04-18-2011, 10:21 PM
Jake Peavy is hurt and his career is in jeopardy.


Where did you hear his career is in jeopardy?

Gammons Peter
04-18-2011, 10:22 PM
Where did you hear his career is in jeopardy?

He can't stay healthy

Noneck
04-18-2011, 10:27 PM
He can't stay healthy

No one knows the ramifications of his previous injury since no one ever had it before. But I think its way to early to call this career ending.

SI1020
04-18-2011, 10:40 PM
No one knows the ramifications of his previous injury since no one ever had it before. But I think its way to early to call this career ending. Yes, maybe he'll win another Cy Young award some day. I would not say that he can't or won't come back and be a productive pitcher, but at this point I highly doubt it. In any case, whether I'm right or wrong it sure doesn't seem likely for him to help the team any time soon.

Noneck
04-18-2011, 11:12 PM
Yes, maybe he'll win another Cy Young award some day. I would not say that he can't or won't come back and be a productive pitcher, but at this point I highly doubt it. In any case, whether I'm right or wrong it sure doesn't seem likely for him to help the team any time soon.

When a players career is in jeopardy that means that there is good chance he will never play again, that is not the case unless you know something that has not been published.

palehozenychicty
04-18-2011, 11:22 PM
Bottom line: Jake Peavy may not walk through that door. Neither is Bobby Thigpen. We definitely don't want Bob Jenks to walk through.

palehozenychicty
04-18-2011, 11:23 PM
Bottom line: Jake Peavy may not walk through that door. Bobby Thigpen is not walking through that door. We definitely don't want Bob Jenks to walk through.

Marqhead
04-18-2011, 11:28 PM
Jake Peavy: DH?

Would be more helpful at this point...

SI1020
04-19-2011, 09:46 AM
When a players career is in jeopardy that means that there is good chance he will never play again, that is not the case unless you know something that has not been published. I actually think there is a good chance he will pitch again in MLB. I just don't think he will be very good or last very long.