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View Full Version : *Official* 'Extra, Extra, We Need A Closer!' 4/13 White Sox vs OAK Postgame Thread


soxinem1
04-13-2011, 04:32 PM
Great effort by John Danks today, too bad it went to waste.

Maybe we should have signed Fuentes. Sure looked good to see that 5 for 5 save line; too bad it was for OAK.

Hawk is right, there is way too much talent in this bullpen for this to continue, but someone needs to step up.

Regroup and take it out on them Halos' Friday!

TheOldRoman
04-13-2011, 04:32 PM
Now Thornton AND Ozzie look fatter.:angry:

soxnut1018
04-13-2011, 04:32 PM
It's all bad. :angry::whiner::angry:

delben91
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
**** happens. Win tomorrow.

Iron Dragon2
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
100% joke.

hi im skot
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
**** happens. Win tomorrow.

Well, I can guarantee they won't lose tomorrow...

Rikirk
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Thornton is not looking altogether there...
Shame.

:scratch:

JB98
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:

DSpivack
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
:thud:

VMSNS
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
I think I'm going to vomit.

:puking::puking::puking:

Gavin
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:
:fireozzie:fireozzie:fireozzie

guillensdisciple
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
We're still all in though.

AnkleSox
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
The Sox pretty much need to take at least a 7 run lead into the 9th to make me feel confident in any win.

hi im skot
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:

I'm a big Ozzie fan, but I'm losing a lot of faith in him.

PatK
04-13-2011, 04:35 PM
"All In" apparently didn't involve the bullpen.

I"m watching the game on Gameday at work and get a phone call at the top of the 9th.

Take my eyes off the game for a couple minutes and see they blew it.

Thank God it was my father on the line, as a customer wouldn't have liked my reaction.

ChiSoxGal85
04-13-2011, 04:35 PM
Ugly. Put a dark cloud over my really good day. A marvelous effort by Danks blown to hell by the bullpen. Again. Ozzie and the bullpen owe the starting pitcher a steak dinner.

I blame Ozzie for this one. Yeah, hindsight is great...but bringing in Sale when he'd pitched 2 innings last night was a bad move. Sale was not sharp. Crain should have started the inning at least.

And I loved Matt Thornton last year. This year, he's just been flat-out bad and I cringe whenever I see him, ala Scott Linebrink.

Rikirk
04-13-2011, 04:35 PM
Yeah,...all in the funk.

Crestani
04-13-2011, 04:35 PM
It's all bad. :angry::whiner::angry:


I guess "There not all in" after all. They forgot a closer..!!

By the way, Thornton's line on the year
4 innings 11 hits and 4 walks....this will not cut it.

Gavin
04-13-2011, 04:36 PM
What is it that us dumbass armchair GMs don't know that Ozzie did that made it a good idea to put Sale in to close the game today?

Lip Man 1
04-13-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm not even angry anymore, stunned like somebody hit me in the head with a 2x4 is more like it.

Four times, FOUR TIMES, they've had the lead and lost the game in the 8th inning or later.

And in three of those games they had a lead of at last two runs.

These guys aren't that bad but they are pitching scared or else something is really wrong like multiple guys tipping pitches.

Just throwing this out but maybe Ozzie instead of letting Double and Triple A cannon fodder get innings in spring training, including the final week, he should be using the guys who are actually going to be on the roster when the bell rings.

This is just embarrassing.

Lip

delben91
04-13-2011, 04:36 PM
Well, I can guarantee they won't lose tomorrow...

Ah, right. Touche.

Patrick134
04-13-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm a big Ozzie fan, but I'm losing a lot of faith in him.

Great point, just look at all those walks Ozzie threw, and all those base hits Ozzie gave up.

johnnyg83
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
The crap they've put us through already this year... damn.

hi im skot
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Great point, just look at all those walks Ozzie threw, and all those base hits Ozzie gave up.

At least today isn't a total loss - I've learned that Patrick and Russ are the same person.

TheOldRoman
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Ozzie said before the game yesterday that Thornton is "tough" and to close one needs to be tough and not care what anybody says about him, like Bobby Jenks and himself.:o: He honestly said that he doesn't let criticism get to him. Yes, the same manager who snipes at anyone for murmuring his name, who sends his degenerate son to Twitter to defend his honor, believes he actually lets everthing roll off of his back.

I wonder if the "thick skinned" Guillen will handle the reporters asking him questions about why Sale pitched today.

Tragg
04-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Overworking Sale, who is devalued in relief, in the process.

Rikirk
04-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Ozzie seems stunned.

chisoxjtrain
04-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Ozzie seems stunned.

He just said "We don't have no closer."

Cat Thief
04-13-2011, 04:38 PM
I'm glad I was at work and watched the Gamecast otherwise, something would have got groken at home.

I was in a good mood but now I have a headache. I was going to take the wife out for dinner but now forget it. Maybe I need to talk to someone about this Sox obsession.

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/the-sopranos/images/lorraine-bracco-4.jpg

Patrick134
04-13-2011, 04:39 PM
At least today isn't a total loss - I've learned that Patrick and Russ are the same person.

And I learned that was Ozzie out there in Thornton's jersey.

SI1020
04-13-2011, 04:39 PM
Great point, just look at all those walks Ozzie threw, and all those base hits Ozzie gave up. So don't give him or any other manager credit when their team wins. In fact, since we've already established that we don't need a hitting coach, perhaps we can dispense of the manager too.

amsteel
04-13-2011, 04:39 PM
So how many more days like today until something changes?

Gavin
04-13-2011, 04:39 PM
And I learned that was Ozzie out there in Thornton's jersey.

Ozzie, is that you?

kobo
04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:
He just said because of the 3 run lead he asked Sale if he was ok to go and Sale said yes. He then went on to say he has no closer.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm glad I was at work and watched the Gamecast otherwise, something would have got groken at home.

I was in a good mood but now I have a headache. I was going to take the wife out for dinner but now forget it. Maybe I need to talk to someone about this Sox obsession.

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/the-sopranos/images/lorraine-bracco-4.jpg

Sir, are you by any chance a boss of the mafia?

Crestani
04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm a big Ozzie fan, but I'm losing a lot of faith in him.


Concurr...I was expecting Crain!!

Rikirk
04-13-2011, 04:41 PM
Ok, Were only 12 games into this season...this shouldnt be happening.
But at least its early enough to fix.

Fix it, get it done, it will be all good.

hi im skot
04-13-2011, 04:41 PM
And I learned that was Ozzie out there in Thornton's jersey.

Okay, I'll bite.

Sale should not have started the 9th inning. And then burning through three pitchers that inning was a complete joke - Crain or Thornton start that inning, not Sale.

Thornton is indeed useless right now, I'll give you that.

Hitmen77
04-13-2011, 04:42 PM
Anyone who is surprised at the outcome of this game is just fooling themselves.

I was worried that having Santos and Sale work 2 innings each yesterday would make another bullpen fiasco more likely today. Too bad that fear was a valid one. :angry:

Right now, that bullpen is in free fall and Ozzie's moves (taking Buehrle out for the 9th on Monday, starting the 9th today with a gassed Sale) aren't helping.

$125 million payroll and our bullpen can't preserve wins against a weak-hitting team.

Quentin08
04-13-2011, 04:42 PM
I couldn't handle extra innings today. 10 minutes later I tune back in, and Sox are down 7-4, not even surprised. Our bullpen is terrible. It's deja vu all over again this season. There's gonna be a major drop in attendance if the team doesn't straighten the bullpen issues up soon. Only 16,000 showed up today. Ouch!

kittle42
04-13-2011, 04:42 PM
I do not know why this is so hard for Patrick, russ, and co. to get: The manager's job is simply to put his team in the best position to win. Starting the inning with Sale was probably the 3rd or 4th best choice he could have made. That is not putting your team in the best position to win. After that, yes, it is on the pitchers, no question. Both the manager and the bullpen majorly failed in this game.

SoxFan78
04-13-2011, 04:42 PM
Right now sans Santos and Crain, this is the worst Sox bullpen I have seen in a while.

JDub35
04-13-2011, 04:43 PM
I HOPE we can laugh about this in September....

ChiSoxGal85
04-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Apparently Ozzie went off at the press conference, CSN has to clean it up before they can show it.

Lip Man 1
04-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Here's a scary thought, could Jenks have actually been right about Ozzie (i.e.doesn't know how to use a bullpen?)

:o:

This is reminding me of the 1996 bullpen which was a major reason the Sox blew the wild card lead the final month. They set the record (since broken) for most saves in a season.

They could have realistically been looking at a seven or eight game winning streak if not for the bullpen.

Lip

VMSNS
04-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Let's trade Lillabeast, Ohman, and Pena for Heath Bell.

Make it happen, Kenny!

Rikirk
04-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Id like to see that ozzie rant.

Marqhead
04-13-2011, 04:45 PM
I HOPE we can laugh about this in September....

I will drink (after work) many many drinks to this.

Patrick134
04-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Here's a scary thought, could Jenks have actually been right about Ozzie (i.e.doesn't know how to use a bullpen?)

:o:

They could have realistically been looking at a seven or eight game winning streak if not for the bullpen.

Lip


Great point. Francona looks like a genius now.

soxinem1
04-13-2011, 04:46 PM
Ok, Were only 12 games into this season...this shouldnt be happening.
But at least its early enough to fix.

Fix it, get it done, it will be all good.

When you have given up 12 runs in the 9th inning so far at this stage of the season, you need to be concerned.

The one save we have wasn't exactly flawless either.

Something needs to snap, and someone needs to step up and get it done.

Crestani
04-13-2011, 04:46 PM
Apparently Ozzie went off at the press conference, CSN has to clean it up before they can show it.


Or simply translate it..??:scratch:

palehozenychicty
04-13-2011, 04:46 PM
Right now sans Santos and Crain, this is the worst Sox bullpen I have seen in a while.

Indeed. Thornton and Sale have great fastballs, but mediocre secondary pitches. They can't be closers. We are seeing that now. It was time to move on from Bobby because of his salary/weight issues/horrible beard, but damn.

jshanahanjr
04-13-2011, 04:48 PM
No wonder why the Yanks are in the playoffs every year, and the Sox are not. They don't blow 4 games by 4/13. Pathetic!:angry:

TheOldRoman
04-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Id like to see that ozzie rant.I wonder if he snapped at a reported for asking a valid question or if it was just rah-rah bull**** to wake the team up.

cheezheadsoxfan
04-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Well, I can guarantee they won't lose tomorrow...
This is one of those games where (after waiting out the long, cold winter for baseball to start) I'm really grateful for an off day.

JB98
04-13-2011, 04:49 PM
I do not know why this is so hard for Patrick, russ, and co. to get: The manager's job is simply to put his team in the best position to win. Starting the inning with Sale was probably the 3rd or 4th best choice he could have made. That is not putting your team in the best position to win. After that, yes, it is on the pitchers, no question. Both the manager and the bullpen majorly failed in this game.

Agree completely. I don't want to hear this "It's early" **** from apologists either. Because of this loss, the loss Monday and the loss last Friday, that's three more games the Sox will have to win later if they want to go to the playoffs.

This has been a very, very costly first two weeks. A disaster, really.

VMSNS
04-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Indeed. Thornton and Sale have great fastballs, but mediocre secondary pitches. They can't be closers. We are seeing that now. It was time to move on from Bobby because of his salary/weight issues/horrible beard, but damn.

:scratch:

Sale's slider is filthy, and his change-up is considered to be a plus pitch.

Thornton on the other hand...yeah, you're right. His slider is lacking, and he barely ever throws it.

Harry Potter
04-13-2011, 04:50 PM
This is one of those games where (after wanting out the long, cold winter for baseball to start) I'm really grateful for an off day.

Normally I would be too but now we have to wait and ponder this loss for an extra day.

Marqhead
04-13-2011, 04:52 PM
:scratch:

Sale's slider is filthy, and his change-up is considered to be a plus pitch.

Thornton on the other hand...yeah, you're right. His slider is lacking, and he barely ever throws it.

Yeah, there's no reason Sale can't close -- he just shouldn't be put in a save situation in a day game after going 2 innings the night before. We had fresh arms, Ozzie should have used them. Be it Crain or Thornton, someone besides Sale should have opened the 9th inning. I still have confidence in Sale -- despite his shaky start. He'll come around, he has a good arsenal of pitches.

kittle42
04-13-2011, 04:52 PM
Agree completely. I don't want to hear this "It's early" **** from apologists either. Because of this loss, the loss Monday and the loss last Friday, that's three more games the Sox will have to win later if they want to go to the playoffs.

This has been a very, very costly first two weeks. A disaster, really.

Particularly against this garbage level of competition, and please don't feel the need to cite the Cleveland and KC records, as you know where both those teams are likely to be come late summer.

Conservatively, this team should be 8-4 or 9-3 and liberally 10-2. As it stands, they are a mediocre 7-5, and it feels like they are much worse than that.

soxinem1
04-13-2011, 04:53 PM
:scratch:

Sale's slider is filthy, and his change-up is considered to be a plus pitch.

Thornton on the other hand...yeah, you're right. His slider is lacking, and he barely ever throws it.

Thornton has thrown his slider, and this is what it looks like:

http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/2052/2674coat_hanger.jpg

Soxman219
04-13-2011, 04:54 PM
And Kenny is complaining why no one comes to the games. Jesus Christ I came back from classes to see another chokejob from our Sox. Ozzie has been pathetic managing this team so far, his stubbornness knows no bounds; but this is on the bullpen. Matt Thornton is not a closer. 4/4 in blown saves, pathetic. 3 blown games in this homestand! :angry:

Hitmen77
04-13-2011, 04:55 PM
I'm not even angry anymore, stunned like somebody hit me in the head with a 2x4 is more like it.

Four times, FOUR TIMES, they've had the lead and lost the game in the 8th inning or later.

And in three of those games they had a lead of at last two runs.

These guys aren't that bad but they are pitching scared or else something is really wrong like multiple guys tipping pitches.

Just throwing this out but maybe Ozzie instead of letting Double and Triple A cannon fodder get innings in spring training, including the final week, he should be using the guys who are actually going to be on the roster when the bell rings.

This is just embarrassing.

Lip

This is what I'm thinking too. It's got to be getting into their heads at this point after so many games of putting the wrong reliever in the wrong role and having it repeatedly blow up in their face. The bullpen is simply imploding right now.

I hope Santos can step up to the closer role and that the other relievers can settle into roles they are better suited for.

The good news is that we aren't behind the teams that we expect to be competing for this division YET.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-13-2011, 04:55 PM
I hate off days because once the season starts I miss watching the game or listening to it.

I now am looking forward to tomorrow because of our bullpen.

Please - you have the day off tomorrow. Use it wisely.

captain54
04-13-2011, 04:56 PM
Great point, just look at all those walks Ozzie threw, and all those base hits Ozzie gave up.

The players are paid to get the job done.... The manager is paid to put
players on the field that can get the job done.... If the manager keeps trotting guys out there that can't get the job done, then where is HIS
accountability?

ChiSoxGal85
04-13-2011, 04:56 PM
Normally I would be too but now we have to wait and ponder this loss for an extra day.
This...personally I wish they were playing tomorrow so I don't have to stew about it for nearly two whole days.

amsteel
04-13-2011, 04:58 PM
And Kenny is complaining why no one comes to the games.

I was thinking this too. People will always show up over the summer, but ****ty weather and ****ty baseball is setting up this weekend to be a flop, gate-wise.

Regardless, I'll be there, stockpiling beer to get me through the 8th, 9th, and now inevitably the 10th.

TDog
04-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:

Sale must have changed Guillen's mind. Santos didn't even warm up, so obviously he was unavailable and remained so. Thornton must have been a last resort because of mental issues. If there was a physical problem, Ohman would have been warmed up to face the lefty.

Usually, when a bullpen is this horrendously underperforming, the pitching coach gets fired. Seattle's bullpen some years ago was this bad and it got Nardi Contreras fired. Suddenly, the Mariners bullpen became pretty good. Contreras got picked up by the White Sox within weeks and messed up the entire staff. I don't think Don Cooper is going anywhere, though.

It doesn't seem to matter who the White Sox bring in. Crain couldn't find the plate. (Did he get a hold today? Love that stat.) I don't know if the ninth inning would have been any better with him starting it. I thought Thornton was going to get out of it in the ninth after the strikeout.

I think it's reached a point now where it's mental. At least there weren't any late defensive errors today (except by the A's who gifted the Sox a run in the eighth).

The Sox did spend money on the bullpen this offseason by signing Crain. They didn't save much by sending Linebrink to the Braves because they are still paying most of his salary, but they saved money by not signing Jenks. Not signing Jenks and paying most of Linebrink's salary to pitch for the Braves seemed popular moves at the time. I'm probably in the minority in not wanting to see Jenks pushed out because I thought the Sox would struggle to close games. But the fact is, the Sox probably have the arms for a solid bullpen. And they won't have to fire Cooper to straighten things out.

DirtySox
04-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Indefensible bullpen management.

2 fresh arms in Crain and Thornton, medium leverage closing situation? Let's put in the rookie who threw 2 innings less than 24 hours ago to face righties. Next, lets bring in the closer who likely has shattered confidence, for a do or die bases loaded situation. Matt was set up to fail there. He or Crain should have started the inning period.

ChiSoxGal85
04-13-2011, 05:00 PM
Ozzie's rant was just basically frustration - "no one does the job, I doubt myself, when we play good they send the guys to this table, when they **** up I gotta sit here with you guys"...that was about it.

But yes, he also said "I have no closer".

SoxSpeed22
04-13-2011, 05:00 PM
That makes 3 games we gave away in the 9th and it's not even two weeks into the season. Fan-****in-tastic.
I could understand not pitching Santos after yesterday night, but I think he needs to be in there for the 9th.

Hendu
04-13-2011, 05:00 PM
It's 3 ****ing outs. Seriously...there is too much talent in the bullpen for it to be such a disaster. It's not like they've been facing the '27 Yankees. What's going to happen the next time we have a save situation...I hope Santos can get the job done because nobody else can be trusted right now.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 05:02 PM
:fireozzie

Honestly, how many other managers can you think of who would keep trotting Thornton out there in key situations? Who else would say that "We have no closer" without even giving Santos a chance, despite him being arguably our best bullpen arm right now? Who else would say that Sale is unavailable after pitching two innings last night, then go and throw him to the wolves the very next night??? :angry: :angry: :angry:

jshanahanjr
04-13-2011, 05:02 PM
How many games to Bobby blow in his 5 years with the Sox? Thornton and Co could beat it by the end of April.

psyclonis
04-13-2011, 05:03 PM
so jenks has pitched 4 innings so far and has given up 0 hits hmm :scratch:
granted he wasnt that good last year... but at least he was a 'closer'

Stop blaming Ozzie guys, KW was the one who built this subpar bullpen...

Lip Man 1
04-13-2011, 05:06 PM
Good point about Ozzie asking (according to Scott Merkin) Sale if he could pitch today (what does he expcet the kid to say?) but he pulls Buehrle without a word.

Add in Sale was facing two right handers to start the inning.

Again though, the karma just has been ****ting on the Sox at every opportunity. The guy who tied the game was a .160 hitter, so again like three or four other guys this season in key moments, he bloops a hit into short center.

Thornton has not had one iota of luck at all this year, everything is working against him.

The can still make it a winning homestand by taking 2 of 3 from the Angels, although Weaver pitches Friday.

Lip

sox1970
04-13-2011, 05:07 PM
One thing that should never be brought up is Bobby Jenks. Sometimes it's just time to part ways with a player, and he was one of them.

Rafael Soriano? Sure, let's discuss.

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2011, 05:10 PM
This is ****ing ridiculous, how are we blaming Ozzie for this? NO ONE can get a guy out in the ninth. Sale can't do it, Thornton can't do it, Crain can't do it. Who the **** can? Who the **** is Ozzie going to go to? NO ONE was throwing strikes. Everyone here wanted Sale to take over for the struggling Thornton and Ozzie puts him there, Sale gets hit and now we are blaming Ozzie for putting Sale in there? What ****.

The fact of the matter is we don't have a closer. We have a ton of great setup men and they all appear to be signing up to join the long list of good setup men who can't close out games. Sale has not proven to me he can get out righties, Thornton has lost ALL confidence and Crain couldn't buy a strike today.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2011, 05:10 PM
One thing that should never be brought up is Bobby Jenks. Sometimes it's just time to part ways with a player, and he was one of them.

Rafael Soriano? Sure, let's discuss.

Thank you, and thank you.

I don't want to hear his name again unless we're discussing how awesome 2005 was, which we should probably only do at the end of every season for celebratory purposes.

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Good point about Ozzie asking (according to Scott Merkin) Sale if he could pitch today (what does he expcet the kid to say?) but he pulls Buehrle without a word.

Add in Sale was facing two right handers to start the inning.

Again though, the karma just has been ****ting on the Sox at every opportunity. The guy who tied the game was a .160 hitter, so again like three or four other guys this season in key moments, he bloops a hit into short center.

Thornton has not had one iota of luck at all this year, everything is working against him.

The can still make it a winning homestand by taking 2 of 3 from the Angels, although Weaver pitches Friday.

Lip

On Friday and on Monday, his defense let him down but those balls were hard hit.

JB98
04-13-2011, 05:11 PM
This is ****ing ridiculous, how are we blaming Ozzie for this? NO ONE can get a guy out in the ninth. Sale can't do it, Thornton can't do it, Crain can't do it. Who the **** can? Who the **** is Ozzie going to go to? NO ONE was throwing strikes. Everyone here wanted Sale to take over for the struggling Thornton and Ozzie puts him there, Sale gets hit and now we are blaming Ozzie for putting Sale in there? What ****.

The fact of the matter is we don't have a closer. We have a ton of great setup men and they all appear to be signing up to join the long list of good setup men who can't close out games. Sale has not proven to me he can get out righties, Thornton has lost ALL confidence and Crain couldn't buy a strike today.

I still want Sale to take over. But saying before the game that he was unavailable, then throwing him in there was stupid. End of story.

amsteel
04-13-2011, 05:12 PM
I know, I know, small sample size, etc., but just because extrapolating is fun: they are on pace for 54 blown saves this year.

At this point I would take Buehrle or Danks at 100+ pitches over anything other than Santos or Crain. Christ, I would take a tee and an short-centerfielder over Thornton.

Lip Man 1
04-13-2011, 05:12 PM
5178:

Not automatically defending Matt, I know where you are coming from but he blew the save in K.C. on a bloop hit down the left field line. He was one out away today for getting a huge save and a .160 hitter bloops the tying hit into center. I'm saying everything that can go wrong has for him.

Lip

October26
04-13-2011, 05:13 PM
This...personally I wish they were playing tomorrow so I don't have to stew about it for nearly two whole days.

I feel the same way; but you know that we've been White sox fans for a long time and we're gonna get through this. I won't lie, though, this loss really stings right now.

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2011, 05:14 PM
Indefensible bullpen management.

2 fresh arms in Crain and Thornton, medium leverage closing situation? Let's put in the rookie who threw 2 innings less than 24 hours ago to face righties. Next, lets bring in the closer who likely has shattered confidence, for a do or die bases loaded situation. Matt was set up to fail there. He or Crain should have started the inning period.

Wait, you wanted the guy who has in your own words shattered confidence out there to START the inning? Did people forget that Crain was the guy who walked the bases loaded? Crain couldn't throw strikes either, everyone wanted to see what Sale could do as a closer so Ozzie brings him in and he was giving up hits so he goes to Crain who couldn't find the strike zone and then brings in Thornton to face a lefty.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 05:16 PM
This is ****ing ridiculous, how are we blaming Ozzie for this? NO ONE can get a guy out in the ninth. Sale can't do it, Thornton can't do it, Crain can't do it. Who the **** can? Who the **** is Ozzie going to go to? NO ONE was throwing strikes. Everyone here wanted Sale to take over for the struggling Thornton and Ozzie puts him there, Sale gets hit and now we are blaming Ozzie for putting Sale in there? What ****.

The fact of the matter is we don't have a closer. We have a ton of great setup men and they all appear to be signing up to join the long list of good setup men who can't close out games. Sale has not proven to me he can get out righties, Thornton has lost ALL confidence and Crain couldn't buy a strike today.

Sergio is mowing guys down with regularity, but isn't given the chance for some stupid reason.

Good point about Ozzie asking (according to Scott Merkin) Sale if he could pitch today (what does he expcet the kid to say?) but he pulls Buehrle without a word.

This needs to be quoted. How does Ozzie pull his horse without question when he's mowing guys down, and say that he needs to protect him, then go and ask the young guy who needs to impress his manager if he can go? What the hell do you think he's going to say? "I don't have it Ozzie, you'd better look to someone else for these outs"?

Ozzie is absolutely blowing this.

Patrick134
04-13-2011, 05:19 PM
5178:

Not automatically defending Matt, I know where you are coming from but he blew the save in K.C. on a bloop hit down the left field line. He was one out away today for getting a huge save and a .160 hitter bloops the tying hit into center. I'm saying everything that can go wrong has for him.

Lip

That is a good point. That was a bloop hit. If he had absolutely crushed the ball, but right at somebody , we'd be celebrating a victory( unless it was hit to Pierre).

cheezheadsoxfan
04-13-2011, 05:19 PM
Indefensible bullpen management.

2 fresh arms in Crain and Thornton, medium leverage closing situation? Let's put in the rookie who threw 2 innings less than 24 hours ago to face righties. Next, lets bring in the closer who likely has shattered confidence, for a do or die bases loaded situation. Matt was set up to fail there. He or Crain should have started the inning period.
This.

Soxfest
04-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Thornton is not a closer and never will be.:angry:

cws05champ
04-13-2011, 05:24 PM
I'm not even angry anymore, stunned like somebody hit me in the head with a 2x4 is more like it.

Four times, FOUR TIMES, they've had the lead and lost the game in the 8th inning or later.

And in three of those games they had a lead of at last two runs.

These guys aren't that bad but they are pitching scared or else something is really wrong like multiple guys tipping pitches.

Just throwing this out but maybe Ozzie instead of letting Double and Triple A cannon fodder get innings in spring training, including the final week, he should be using the guys who are actually going to be on the roster when the bell rings.

This is just embarrassing.

Lip
You're right...I was beyond the point of pissed today. It's just comical that you blow THIS many games in the first two weeks. Team should be 10-2 right now.

Some changes need to be made...Bring Infante up, and for God's sake just save Santos for saving games now until he proves he can't do it.

daveeym
04-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Anyone who is surprised at the outcome of this game is just fooling themselves.

I was worried that having Santos and Sale work 2 innings each yesterday would make another bullpen fiasco more likely today. Too bad that fear was a valid one. :angry:

Right now, that bullpen is in free fall and Ozzie's moves (taking Buehrle out for the 9th on Monday, starting the 9th today with a gassed Sale) aren't helping.

$125 million payroll and our bullpen can't preserve wins against a weak-hitting team. But but but it's early and Burls fades on the year and was already at 99 pitches. And sale has a rubber arm and should have been fine out there today.

TDog
04-13-2011, 05:25 PM
One thing that should never be brought up is Bobby Jenks. Sometimes it's just time to part ways with a player, and he was one of them.

Rafael Soriano? Sure, let's discuss.

Soriano signed with the Yankees for $35 million over three years, was it? That's the sort of money that only the Yankees would spend on a free-agent relief pitcher, and Soriano isn't even closing.

I think bringing up Bobby Jenks is more valid than bringing up Rafael Soriano.

TomBradley72
04-13-2011, 05:27 PM
Give the closer role to Santos- the guy has electric stuff and seems to very poised.

sox1970
04-13-2011, 05:30 PM
Soriano signed with the Yankees for $35 million over three years, was it? That's the sort of money that only the Yankees would spend on a free-agent relief pitcher, and Soriano isn't even closing.

I think bringing up Bobby Jenks is more valid than bringing up Rafael Soriano.

It's possible if the Sox would have offered Soriano a big 1-yr deal to close, he may have bitten. Steinbrenner (Hank) overpaid for Soriano.

It's just more of a realistic possibility than Jenks, who was trouble last year and arbitration eligible. It was time to cut ties.

But that's a moot point now. Santos deserves a shot.

sullythered
04-13-2011, 05:31 PM
It seems clear to everybody but the White Sox that Sergio Santos should be the closer on this team.

Harry Potter
04-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Give the closer role to Santos- the guy has electric stuff and seems to very poised.

Agreed. End any speculation of a committee and make it Santos job to lose.

Long relief: Gray/Pena
LOOGY: Ohman
Middle: Thornton and Gray/Pena
Setup: Sale and Crain
Closer: Santos

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2011, 05:35 PM
It seems clear to everybody but the White Sox that Sergio Santos should be the closer on this team.

I agree with this, but honestly, I would not be shocked if Santos wound up struggling.

daveeym
04-13-2011, 05:39 PM
While Santos deserves as much a shot as anyone else right now I'm a bit surprised at the strength of his corner. He's still a bit raw and he flat out stank for portions of last season. I think he needed a bit more success and innings before getting the job, prior to this fiasco.


Also, anyone else notice how the sox start firing off charity emails and sox gear sale emails after a bad loss?

TDog
04-13-2011, 05:40 PM
It's possible if the Sox would have offered Soriano a big 1-yr deal to close, he may have bitten. Steinbrenner (Hank) overpaid for Soriano.

It's just more of a realistic possibility than Jenks, who was trouble last year and arbitration eligible. It was time to cut ties.

But that's a moot point now. Santos deserves a shot.

It's possible that a pitcher who wanted to get an obscenely high contract that would have set him up for life in a role where pitchers sometimes lose it overnight, even if nothing pops in their shoulders, would have taken a smaller one-year contract with the White Sox to earn it in his next free-agent year instead of taking the contract he wanted in the first place from the Yankees, who get to the World Series more than any other team. Anything's possible.

Jenks wasn't nearly the trouble last year that all of the White Sox closers have been this year.

Santos will probably get the shot, though.

Lip Man 1
04-13-2011, 05:48 PM
Two final points then I'm off to MC a basketball banquet.

1. If the Sox bullpen gets ONE more friggin' out, the attitude in the clubhouse and with the fans is 180 degrees different. The Sox would be 8-4 and would still have not lost a series. ONE damn out. (and a bloop hit from a .160 hitter rubs salt in the wound.)

2. This was just brought up to me by one of the Sox beat writers. Remember the "justification" for sending down Millidge and bringing up Jeff Gray? The Sox had played two straight extra inning games and the bullpen was spent.

Well the Sox were in the midst of their 3rd extra inning game in a row. Where's Gray? If he's not going to be used or at least given a shot what's he on the roster for?

In essence the Sox are playing one man short on the roster. I'm not saying Gray is the answer (he's not) but if everyone else is spent or ineffective, maybe you need to take a chance.

Lip

cards press box
04-13-2011, 05:52 PM
Give the closer role to Santos- the guy has electric stuff and seems to very poised.

+1

Agreed. End any speculation of a committee and make it Santos job to lose.

Long relief: Gray/Pena
LOOGY: Ohman
Middle: Thornton and Gray/Pena
Setup: Sale and Crain
Closer: Santos

My only disagreement here is about Thornton. I suspect that if he goes back to his previous 7th/8th inning role, he will be just fine. I expect that the Sox will have Thornton, Sale and Crain set up for Santos and will have Sale close in games where Santos is not available.

veeter
04-13-2011, 06:10 PM
Ozzie has no clue.

SBSoxFan
04-13-2011, 06:14 PM
Ozzie says before the game Sale isn't available after pitching two innings last night. Then, he uses Sale to start the ninth inning. :scratch:

Yeah, that was in interesting choice. Having a 3 run lead going to the 9th was the perfect situation for Thornton. The bullpen is maddening right now. One day a guy's fine, the next day he stinks.

This team should be 11-1, and be 6-1/2 up on the Twins. I sure hope this doesn't come back to haunt them.

konerko 14
04-13-2011, 06:17 PM
I'd let Santos close, he's looked the best out of the bullpen.

roylestillman
04-13-2011, 06:23 PM
OK, I'll ask the question. Is Thornton hurt?

JB98
04-13-2011, 06:29 PM
OK, I'll ask the question. Is Thornton hurt?

Don't think so. He was hitting 96 on the gun.

MarkZ35
04-13-2011, 06:29 PM
Its not Ozzies fault for what has happened so far because the bullpen should man up and get some outs but its becoming obvious to everyone that Santos should at least get a shot at closing.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 06:45 PM
Its not Ozzies fault for what has happened so far because the bullpen should man up and get some outs but its becoming obvious to everyone that Santos should at least get a shot at closing.

Thornton is clearly not the answer for the 9th inning, and deserves every bit of the blame for his mistakes. But Ozzie deserves blame for not getting it into his head that he needs to put someone else out there in the 9th, instead of being stubborn and hoping for something to change magically. His stubborn nature kept trotting Politte out there to get shelled and blow games for us in '06. It kept Thornton as a LOOGY in '07 when it was clear that he was our only reliable bridge to Jenks. It kept guys like DeWayne Wise, Rob Mackowiak, Nick Swisher and Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. It kept guys like Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit at 3B. He simply refuses to budge when it's apparent that something isn't working. He just keeps trying to force the square peg into the round hole.

thomas35forever
04-13-2011, 06:52 PM
This has gone beyond the level of serious. I've never seen the 'pen in this bad of shape. Sadly, I have no idea how they're gonna solve this if at all.

shingo10
04-13-2011, 06:56 PM
I don't have the numbers at hand to back me up (they do exist) but the past 3 years the Sox bullpen has started wonderfully. They were praised extensively in the beginning part of the season and then when it came to July...

It was a whole different story. The bullpen was atrocious down the stretch in each of the last 3 seasons in games that really mattered in August and September.

So my theory for this year is that maybe the bullpen will improve to the point where it is lights out during the most important part of the year and be terrible in the beginning.

Silver lining is at least we are still 2 games above .500. Being on the right side of that number at the end of April is very important in my opinion.

SoxFan1979
04-13-2011, 07:01 PM
we're still all in though.

lmao

russ99
04-13-2011, 07:03 PM
Thornton is clearly not the answer for the 9th inning, and deserves every bit of the blame for his mistakes. But Ozzie deserves blame for not getting it into his head that he needs to put someone else out there in the 9th, instead of being stubborn and hoping for something to change magically. His stubborn nature kept trotting Politte out there to get shelled and blow games for us in '06. It kept Thornton as a LOOGY in '07 when it was clear that he was our only reliable bridge to Jenks. It kept guys like DeWayne Wise, Rob Mackowiak, Nick Swisher and Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. It kept guys like Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit at 3B. He simply refuses to budge when it's apparent that something isn't working. He just keeps trying to force the square peg into the round hole.

This isn't the case at all.

All of our late inning pitchers have given up runs. "Inflexible Ozzie" put Sale in to close, and brought in Crain both today and in our other pen losses, and they failed just as much as Thornton.

If you want to blame the manager when all options aren't working and pin all your hopes on a converted IF with one year of MLB pitching and no closing experience who's doing pretty well in his assigned role, fine. But who will you blame if he can't hack it either?

Kenny let Jenks leave and decided to do so as late as July of last year, yet had no plan to replace him with an actual MLB closer. Then he let Putz leave over $1M.

Blowing $2M on Ohman when we already had 2 lefthanders makes this look even worse.

Over By There
04-13-2011, 07:03 PM
I don't envy Ozzie's position right now. You have a bunch of guys that can't seem to get outs late in a game. Roll Thornton out there and you're going to get criticized for not trying something different. Roll Sale out there and he gets rocked, you get criticized for not trying someone different. Calling for Bobby Jenks back or Ozzie to be fired because Thornton repeatedly ****s the bed is a wee bit of an overreaction, IMO.

pssondacubs
04-13-2011, 07:03 PM
Thornton is clearly not the answer for the 9th inning, and deserves every bit of the blame for his mistakes. But Ozzie deserves blame for not getting it into his head that he needs to put someone else out there in the 9th, instead of being stubborn and hoping for something to change magically. His stubborn nature kept trotting Politte out there to get shelled and blow games for us in '06. It kept Thornton as a LOOGY in '07 when it was clear that he was our only reliable bridge to Jenks. It kept guys like DeWayne Wise, Rob Mackowiak, Nick Swisher and Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. It kept guys like Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit at 3B. He simply refuses to budge when it's apparent that something isn't working. He just keeps trying to force the square peg into the round hole.
That's exactly why I wanted him gone last year. If it's obvious to everyone including the dead, Guillen will purposely ignore the obvious as a way to let the public know he's in charge. Both Guillen and Williams need to go and should have been let go last year. Watch for Guillen to play the victim when the media asks him questions. That's usually his next step.

Please hire a general manager and a manager on knowledge of the game and talent as a coach next time and nothing else. :angry:

fram40
04-13-2011, 07:07 PM
Particularly against this garbage level of competition, and please don't feel the need to cite the Cleveland and KC records, as you know where both those teams are likely to be come late summer.

Conservatively, this team should be 8-4 or 9-3 and liberally 10-2. As it stands, they are a mediocre 7-5, and it feels like they are much worse than that.

at the risk of sounding optimistic - 7 - 5 is .583 which is 94.5 wins.

As horrible as the bullpen has been - they are still winning at better than .580. The defense and bullpen won't be this bad all year. I have confidence the bats and starters will continue to excel.

This could still be a good year

doublem23
04-13-2011, 07:13 PM
at the risk of sounding optimistic - 7 - 5 is .583 which is 94.5 wins.

We're not going to get to play teams this bad all year, though

Noneck
04-13-2011, 07:14 PM
2. This was just brought up to me by one of the Sox beat writers. Remember the "justification" for sending down Millidge and bringing up Jeff Gray? The Sox had played two straight extra inning games and the bullpen was spent.

Well the Sox were in the midst of their 3rd extra inning game in a row. Where's Gray? If he's not going to be used or at least given a shot what's he on the roster for?

In essence the Sox are playing one man short on the roster. I'm not saying Gray is the answer (he's not) but if everyone else is spent or ineffective, maybe you need to take a chance.



I remembered this when I heard a caller point this out to Rongey on the postgame. Rongey the ultimate company man made this poor guy look like a total idiot in that how could he ever think of something as ridiculous as that. I wish gonzo would be on the comcast sports show or write an article to bring this up and tell the world that it is not a stupid idea.

LongLiveFisk
04-13-2011, 07:19 PM
It's a damn good thing I didn't pay for those tickets today.

****! ****! ****! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Hitmen77
04-13-2011, 07:46 PM
Agreed. End any speculation of a committee and make it Santos job to lose.

Long relief: Gray/Pena
LOOGY: Ohman
Middle: Thornton and Gray/Pena
Setup: Sale and Crain
Closer: Santos

When Peavy comes back, I'd also slide Humber over to long relief. On paper, this shouldn't be nearly as bad as our bullpen is performing to date.

I'd also like to point out that Buehrle and Danks held up their end of the bargain this series by going 8 IP, 1 ER each.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2011, 07:50 PM
Seriously though, 7-5 is not bad, and while we are crappy right now this will not continue. No team has ever had such consistent blow ups throughout the year. Sooner or later the bullpen will even itself out.

If this is the offense and starting pitching, we're going to be a okay.

As much as I love Ozwaldo, the man better get us to the playoffs or he is on a very very hot seat.

DickAllen72
04-13-2011, 08:00 PM
All of our late inning pitchers have given up runs. "Inflexible Ozzie" put Sale in to close, and brought in Crain both today and in our other pen losses, and they failed just as much as Thornton.

Ozzie put Sale in a bad position today, asking the rookie if he could pitch the ninth after he just went two innings the night before and was announced as unavailable today before the game. The kid tried to play good soldier and suck it up and close the game but he clearly didn't have it today. Now he may have a bit of a confidence issue because of it.

The only two sensible options for closer in today's game were Crain and Thornton. Crain would have made sense because there were two righties due up to start the ninth.

Thornton would have made sense because he was rested and if he would have failed this could have been his "last chance" at closing before Ozzie decided on picking another closer. If he succeeded, it would have been great but if he failed the day off tomorrow would have assured that Sale, Santos and Crain were all rested and any one of them would have been ready to take his turn as closer.

Anyway, as things stand right now, Santos would currently have to be considered the closer just by default. Let's hope Ozzie and Cooper see it that way as well.

After blowing four games in the first couple of weeks, if the Sox now lose the upcoming series to the Angels, this season will have "train wreck" written all over it. It's time to iron out the bullpen, tighten the defense , and stop running into outs on the basepaths now.

ChiSoxGal85
04-13-2011, 08:04 PM
When Peavy comes back, I'd also slide Humber over to long relief. On paper, this shouldn't be nearly as bad as our bullpen is performing to date.

I'd also like to point out that Buehrle and Danks held up their end of the bargain this series by going 8 IP, 1 ER each.
They certainly did. What a waste of several marvelous pitching performances.

I don't see how Ozzie can do anything other than give Santos a shot a closing. But then, it *is* Ozzie.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Season is certainly not lost. However, somebody needs to step-up in that pen and establish themselves as the closer.

You're not winning a world series with a closer by committee. You're probably not making the playoffs with that.

Patrick134
04-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Season is certainly not lost. However, somebody needs to step-up in that pen and establish themselves as the closer.

You're not winning a world series with a closer by committee. You're probably not making the playoffs with that.


In '05 , weren't the closers Shingo, then Hermanson, then Jenks? I'm not comparing this pen to that scenario, but it goes to show what you have in april and october can be 2 wildly different things.

canOcorn
04-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Ozzie put Sale in a bad position today, asking the rookie if he could pitch the ninth after he just went two innings the night before and was announced as unavailable today before the game. The kid tried to play good soldier and suck it up and close the game but he clearly didn't have it today. Now he may have a bit of a confidence issue because of it.

The only two sensible options for closer in today's game were Crain and Thornton. Crain would have made sense because there were two righties due up to start the ninth.

Thornton would have made sense because he was rested and if he would have failed this could have been his "last chance" at closing before Ozzie decided on picking another closer. If he succeeded, it would have been great but if he failed the day off tomorrow would have assured that Sale, Santos and Crain were all rested and any one of them would have been ready to take his turn as closer.

Anyway, as things stand right now, Santos would currently have to be considered the closer just by default. Let's hope Ozzie and Cooper see it that way as well.

After blowing four games in the first couple of weeks, if the Sox now lose the upcoming series to the Angels, this season will have "train wreck" written all over it. It's time to iron out the bullpen, tighten the defense , and stop running into outs on the basepaths now.

Excellent summary of what happened today and I wholeheartedly agree. I told my buddy before the game, and after Danks got out of the 8th, that it's going to be Crain or Thornton to pitch the 9th. I'd have put Crain out there to start the 9th, but it's absolutely mind boggling that Ozzie would trot Sale out there after last night and then have the balls to bring in Thornton to clean up Sale's/Ozzie's mess.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 08:25 PM
In '05 , weren't the closers Shingo, then Hermanson, then Jenks? I'm not comparing this pen to that scenario, but it goes to show what you have in april and october can be 2 wildly different things.

Yeah, I agree. That was a unique situation though. That doesn't happen a lot.

Also, with those three, they had at least proved themselves as closers for this team for the stretches that they did close. It wasn't really a committee.

We have no established closers on this team right now.

ChiSoxGirl
04-13-2011, 08:26 PM
This team has infuriated me more in the last week than I care to discuss. :angry: I brought my Walkman with on my walk this afternoon and it took everything in me to not yell out four letter words when I was out there. The one good thing is that the aggravation I felt made me pound the pavement even harder and quicker than usual.

Seriously, what the hell is up with this 'pen?! It's like nobody knows how the hell to pitch out of it right now. All I know is these games they've given away in the last seven days better not come back to haunt the team in August and September. :mad:

Harry Potter
04-13-2011, 08:28 PM
Seriously, what the hell is up with this 'pen?! It's like nobody knows how the hell to pitch out of it right now. All I know is these games they've given away in the last seven days better not come back to haunt the team in August and September. :mad:

It all went south since the put out that second bench in the bullpen for the pitchers to sit on last year.

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if any of this is a repeat.

I blame the relievers for throwing meatballs.

I also blame Ozzie for yanking Danks when he had only given up one run in eight innings.

If Ozzie had simply let Buehrle start the ninth on Monday and Danks start the ninth today, both games very well might have been wins.

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 08:38 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if any of this is a repeat.

I blame the relievers for throwing meatballs.

I also blame Ozzie for yanking Danks when he had only given up one run in eight innings.

If Ozzie had simply let Buehrle start the ninth on Monday and Danks start the ninth today, both games very well might have been wins.

Seriously, this argument is getting old.

I blame Ozzie too, but not for pulling Danks.

John had walked three in his last three innings. He benefited from three DP balls to get out of those innings.

Pulling John with a three run lead was the right decision.

The wrong decision was putting in Chris Sale.

JB98
04-13-2011, 08:40 PM
Seriously, this argument is getting old.

I blame Ozzie too, but not for pulling Danks.

John had walked three in his last three innings. He benefited from three DP balls to get out of those innings.

Pulling John with a three run lead was the right decision.

The wrong decision was putting in Chris Sale.

Agree completely. Danks was deep in counts his last two innings. He was very clearly losing command. Right decision to pull him. Just not a good idea to use a reliever who worked two innings last night.

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2011, 08:50 PM
Seriously, this argument is getting old.

I blame Ozzie too, but not for pulling Danks.

John had walked three in his last three innings. He benefited from three DP balls to get out of those innings.

Pulling John with a three run lead was the right decision.

The wrong decision was putting in Chris Sale.

Agree completely. Danks was deep in counts his last two innings. He was very clearly losing command. Right decision to pull him. Just not a good idea to use a reliever who worked two innings last night.

OK, I'll take you word for it that Danks was gassed.

Sox35th
04-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Yep... "All In" till the 9th inning

JermaineDye05
04-13-2011, 08:58 PM
The team is all in, but unfortunately the bullpen is on tilt.

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2011, 09:00 PM
In '05 , weren't the closers Shingo, then Hermanson, then Jenks? I'm not comparing this pen to that scenario, but it goes to show what you have in april and october can be 2 wildly different things.

Yea but Hermanson locked down 30+ saves quickly and then got hurt and Bobby was almost an emergency guy.

thomas35forever
04-13-2011, 09:14 PM
Ouch:
SBerthiaumeESPN #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23WhiteSox) bullpen has now blown 6 saves in first 12 games. Only 2005 Rockies blew as many saves thru first 12 games since 1990.

kittle42
04-13-2011, 09:28 PM
OK, I'll take you word for it that Danks was gassed.

Shall we take yours that he wasn't?

sox1970
04-13-2011, 09:32 PM
Sox are 1 game out with 150 games left. Hit the reset button, off day tomorrow, make Santos the closer, and get this thing going again starting Friday night.

Dan H
04-13-2011, 09:34 PM
I don't know how tired Danks was today. But the Phillies left his ace tonight to finish his game even though his pitch count was in 120's. I just don't think it is automatic to take out a starter for the ninth. Especially with the way this bullpen is going.

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2011, 09:36 PM
Shall we take yours that he wasn't?

If I was being sarcastic, I would have used teal. No sarcasm was intended. I was following the game via ESPN's game tracker; I was not watching it or listening to it like many of you were. I had incorrectly presumed that because he finished the eighth, that Danks would have been OK to start the ninth. Because JermaineDye05 and JB98 almost certainly were watching or listening to the game, I'll take their word that Danks needed to be pulled. Further corroborating that position, and further refuting my original (incorrect) presumption, is tonight's Trib game recap story, in which Danks is reported to have said he would have been pulled in the eighth had he not induced a GIDP.

kittle42
04-13-2011, 09:36 PM
Sox are 1 game out with 150 games left. Hit the reset button, off day tomorrow, make Santos the closer, and get this thing going again starting Friday night.

Ah, yes, baseball - where September games are crucial but early-season blowups are meaningless.

soltrain21
04-13-2011, 09:37 PM
I'm sure it's been said, but pitching Sale on a day game following a night game after he went two innings is, well, dumb.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-13-2011, 09:40 PM
I don't know how tired Danks was today. But the Phillies left his ace tonight to finish his game even though his pitch count was in 120's. I just don't think it is automatic to take out a starter for the ninth. Especially with the way this bullpen is going.

Today, I agree with pulling Danks. As said earlier, he was losing command and was walking people. It's just a shame that no one in the pen can pitch in the 9th.

Now, Buehrle had no business being pulled on Monday. None. Unless Buehrle himself told Ozzie "I'm done, I can't pitch anymore, I'm gassed", then with the way he was dealing, Buehrle should have had the opportunity for the two-hitter.

Viva Medias B's
04-13-2011, 09:41 PM
I'm sure it's been asked before, but what input does Don Cooper have in Ozzie's pitching decisions?

sox1970
04-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Ah, yes, baseball - where September games are crucial but early-season blowups are meaningless.

Oh those losses will still be there in the standings in September, but I'm trying to look at the bright side. They haven't fallen behind in the standings--especially to the Twins and Tigers.

If they correct their mistake of making Thornton a closer, I'm still confident this team will be better than every other team in the division the next 150 games.

But if they don't try Santos at closer, they're asking for more trouble.

Brian26
04-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Ah, yes, baseball - where September games are crucial but early-season blowups are meaningless.

Seriously. Just doing some quick math here (not sure if the standings are updated), but the Sox could be up seven games on Minnesota tonight without these three blown-save losses. You know that's going to come back to haunt somebody in about the 2nd week of September.

delben91
04-13-2011, 09:49 PM
Seriously. Just doing some quick math here (not sure if the standings are updated), but the Sox could be up seven games on Minnesota tonight without these three blown-save losses. You know that's going to come back to haunt somebody in about the 2nd week of September.

Might as well just quit now and save ourselves the agony then.

kittle42
04-13-2011, 09:55 PM
Might as well just quit now and save ourselves the agony then.

Yeah, because that's what he meant. For ****'s sake, people.

slavko
04-13-2011, 10:03 PM
I keep asking who said it but no one knows: "Great bullpens make great managers." He had 3 potential closers out there in the ninth and none of them could get the job done. One to go, Sergio. Then who? Humber?

Ozzie's not the problem, folks.

sox1970
04-13-2011, 10:05 PM
I keep asking who said it but no one knows: "Great bullpens make great managers." He had 3 potential closers out there in the ninth and none of them could get the job done. One to go, Sergio. Then who? Humber?

Ozzie's not the problem, folks.

Buehrle should have pitched the 9th on Monday.

Sale shouldn't have been in there today.

There's two mistakes.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 10:09 PM
If we've learned anything, I would think it's that you can't just throw random effective reliever into the closer role and except him to be successful. Inning 9 is in fact somehow different than the previous 8. They've already taken one of the most effective setup men and maybe the single best left handed setup man in baseball and turned him into mush within 11 games by trying to turn him into a closer. This guy was selected to the All Star team AS A SETUP MAN. That never happens! Is the "just throw Santos in there" crowd at all concerned about what it might do to his confidence should he fail?

I'm not saying he can't do it, but shouldn't there be at least some concern about going through the ENTIRE bullpen just to prove none of them can close? I'd almost rather have a shaky closer and effective setup men than have them all lack confidence because they failed at closing.

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 10:11 PM
If we've learned anything, I would think it's that you can't just throw random effective reliever into the closer role and except him to be successful. Inning 9 is in fact somehow different than the previous 8. They've already taken one of the most effective setup men and maybe the single best left handed setup man in baseball and turned him into mush within 11 games by trying to turn him into a closer. This guy was selected to the All Star team AS A SETUP MAN. That never happens! Is the "just throw Santos in there" crowd at all concerned about what it might do to his confidence should he fail?

I'm not saying he can't do it, but shouldn't there be at least some concern about going through the ENTIRE bullpen just to prove none of them can close? I'd almost rather have a shaky closer and effective setup men than have them all lack confidence because they failed at closing.

I think Thornton's problem is more that his fastball has dropped off and he has no secondary pitch than it is anything mental.

TDog
04-13-2011, 10:16 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if any of this is a repeat.

I blame the relievers for throwing meatballs.

I also blame Ozzie for yanking Danks when he had only given up one run in eight innings.

If Ozzie had simply let Buehrle start the ninth on Monday and Danks start the ninth today, both games very well might have been wins.

You could blame the fashion of baseball to count starters' pitches and stress their importance while you're at it.

DirtySox
04-13-2011, 10:19 PM
I think Thornton's problem is more that his fastball has dropped off and he has no secondary pitch than it is anything mental.

This.

The fastball has been lacking, same with the command.

Gavin
04-13-2011, 10:21 PM
Yea but Hermanson locked down 30+ saves quickly and then got hurt and Bobby was almost an emergency guy.

Hermanson definitely had a good run.. I wish Thornton had his mentality because Thornton definitely has better stuff when he's on. Jenks had dynamite stuff when he came into the closer position in late August 05, but a sometimes-shaky mentality.

chisox12
04-13-2011, 10:23 PM
Sox are 1 game out with 150 games left. Hit the reset button, off day tomorrow, make Santos the closer, and get this thing going again starting Friday night.

I like this.

I think Santos is the only one that has the balls to be the closer. Put Thornton back in the 8th inning role that he was so good at and use Crain and Sale as needed in later inning situations...

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 10:24 PM
I think Thornton's problem is more that his fastball has dropped off and he has no secondary pitch than it is anything mental.

His velocity the last three years:

08: 95.4
09: 95.7
10: 96.1
11: 95.6

Boondock Saint
04-13-2011, 10:29 PM
His velocity the last three years:

08: 95.4
09: 95.7
10: 96.1
11: 95.6

Source? Is that fastball velocity or average pitch velocity?

BringHomeDaBacon
04-13-2011, 10:39 PM
Source? Is that fastball velocity or average pitch velocity?

I believe it's fastball velocity:

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=1918&position=P

doublem23
04-14-2011, 06:20 AM
Classy postgame interview by Ozzie, throwing his bullpen under the bus, despite the fact that it's awfully clear he has no idea how to manage a bullpen when the pieces don't fall into place for him. What a jackass.

I would assume Bobby Jenks is in Boston, just laughing his ass off.

LITTLE NELL
04-14-2011, 06:45 AM
From the Crown Princess in the Caribbean.
This bullpen of ours is ruining my cruise.

white sox bill
04-14-2011, 06:46 AM
I'm betting opposing teams are just thinking: Get past the 7th inning......and its time to pad our numbers.

When you have a AA bullpen at Major league level regardless of our hitting and starting pitching it spells .500 team

SI1020
04-14-2011, 07:09 AM
You could blame the fashion of baseball to count starters' pitches and stress their importance while you're at it. Pitch counts have to go. I doubt it will happen. No manager wants to be blamed for ruining a starter like Dusty Baker was by many for letting Prior exceed 110 pitches several times in the latter part of the 03 season and playoffs. Good luck Nolan Ryan in changing this encased in cement idea concerning pitch counts.

Chez
04-14-2011, 07:52 AM
*Sigh* I miss Linebrink.

russ99
04-14-2011, 08:14 AM
Go back and read the threads from the last two bullpen implosions, they're quite hilarious.

Buerhle should have started the ninth
Thornton should have started the ninth

Sale should close
Sale shouldn't have pitched the ninth

April 13th is a bit too early for knee-jerk assumptions.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 08:18 AM
Go back and read the threads from the last two bullpen implosions, they're quite hilarious.

Buerhle should have started the ninth
Thornton should have started the ninth
Sale should close
Sale shouldn't have pitched the ninth

April 13th is a bit too early for knee-jerk assumptions.

It's even more hilarious watching guys madly scramble to justify the Sox blowing 3 of their last 6 games, like that's not a problem.

ChiSoxGirl
04-14-2011, 08:25 AM
Talking about yesterday afternoon's debacle with someone last night, I came to the conclusion that there could possibly be a bright spot in all of this. Please don't railroad me for my thoughts.

The other day, I posted that I was worried Ozzie would keep trotting Thornton out there in the ninth inning to prove he had confidence in his named closer, similarly to what he did with Jenks last year when he'd proven time and again he wasn't cutting it as our ninth inning guy anymore. I envisioned a scenario where, come June, we'd still be seeing Thornton in the closer's role, and that was pretty damn frightening.

As we all know, Sale pitched two innings on Tuesday night, and Ozzie himself admitted during yesterday's pregame show that Sale was unavailable for the game. Well, the ninth inning rolled around and, with a three-run lead, Ozzie didn't go to Thornton, despite the fact he wasn't overworked from Tuesday night. Despite the game being a classic save situation, Ozzie went to Sale - a 22year-old kid whose pitch count was higher than Santos' the night before. I know Sale told Ozzie he could go when asked, but as a veteran baseball guy, Guillen should've known better than to trust the words of a guy who has only pitched a couple of months in the major leagues. Could Ozzie going to Sale in the ninth yesterday have possibly been an indication that he's seen enough of Thornton in the ninth inning? Maybe the light bulb went on over Ozzie's head. :shrug: He came right out and said, "I have no closer" in the postgame show, so maybe it has.

slavko
04-14-2011, 08:35 AM
From the Crown Princess in the Caribbean.
This bullpen of ours is ruining my cruise.

Classy postgame interview by Ozzie, throwing his bullpen under the bus, despite the fact that it's awfully clear he has no idea how to manage a bullpen when the pieces don't fall into place for him. What a jackass.

I would assume Bobby Jenks is in Boston, just laughing his ass off.

He's a jackass, sure. What else is new? But what's he supposed to do when none of the tail end of the bullpen can finish off a game? It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Crown Prince in the Caribbean. Or is this more like the Titanic?

soltrain21
04-14-2011, 08:39 AM
He's a jackass, sure. What else is new? But what's he supposed to do when none of the tail end of the bullpen can finish off a game? It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Crown Prince in the Caribbean. Or is this more like the Titanic?

He needs to put in the guy with the best opportunity to get it done. Throwing the guy in there for a day game that threw 2 innings the night before isn't your best option.

Hendu
04-14-2011, 08:47 AM
He's a jackass, sure. What else is new? But what's he supposed to do when none of the tail end of the bullpen can finish off a game? It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Crown Prince in the Caribbean. Or is this more like the Titanic?

Exactly. This run is historically bad...even a league average mop-up guy by law of averages should be able to save a couple of the 4 games we've blown in the 9th lately, especially working with a 3 run lead. Ozzie's bullpen management has not been good, but honestly who can he go to? Three different guys failed yesterday to get a combined three outs against some pretty weak hitters. Santos right now wins by default because he's the only guy who hasn't completely **** the bed in a save situation (yet).

russ99
04-14-2011, 09:14 AM
Talking about yesterday afternoon's debacle with someone last night, I came to the conclusion that there could possibly be a bright spot in all of this. Please don't railroad me for my thoughts.

The other day, I posted that I was worried Ozzie would keep trotting Thornton out there in the ninth inning to prove he had confidence in his named closer, similarly to what he did with Jenks last year when he'd proven time and again he wasn't cutting it as our ninth inning guy anymore. I envisioned a scenario where, come June, we'd still be seeing Thornton in the closer's role, and that was pretty damn frightening.

As we all know, Sale pitched two innings on Tuesday night, and Ozzie himself admitted during yesterday's pregame show that Sale was unavailable for the game. Well, the ninth inning rolled around and, with a three-run lead, Ozzie didn't go to Thornton, despite the fact he wasn't overworked from Tuesday night. Despite the game being a classic save situation, Ozzie went to Sale - a 22year-old kid whose pitch count was higher than Santos' the night before. I know Sale told Ozzie he could go when asked, but as a veteran baseball guy, Guillen should've known better than to trust the words of a guy who has only pitched a couple of months in the major leagues. Could Ozzie going to Sale in the ninth yesterday have possibly been an indication that he's seen enough of Thornton in the ninth inning? Maybe the light bulb went on over Ozzie's head. :shrug: He came right out and said, "I have no closer" in the postgame show, so maybe it has.

And you guys would have whined about it when Thornton (who's been getting lit up I may add) ended up blowing it anyway.

Plain and simple this is second guessing.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem here, and don't know how it can be fixed, but c'mon...

My only real issue with this week's losses is how our fans are turning into asshats with all the booing, fake cheers and ripping every thing that's not going perfectly. We've led every game, it's not like this is a last-place club.

My opinion is that Crain should close. He's experienced, has closed before, knows the AL hitters (especially ones in the division) and up to that ill advised fastball to Suzuki seemed to thrive on pressure. That also wouldn't throw our young guys to the wolves and let them continue to develop in their roles.

Jerko
04-14-2011, 09:18 AM
What worries me is that the Sox already have relief pitchers that are "unavailable". It's week 2.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 09:22 AM
What worries me is that the Sox already have relief pitchers that are "unavailable". It's week 2.

The kid threw 34 pitches the night before.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 09:26 AM
My only real issue with this week's losses is how our fans are turning into asshats with all the booing, fake cheers and ripping every thing that's not going perfectly. We've led every game, it's not like this is a last-place club.


Of course, it's all the fans fault! Maybe if these guys would, I don't know, do their jobs, people would be a little easier on them. It's not like teams are just beating us because they're making great plays, we're dropping pop ups, bunting into triple plays, having our bullpen pitch like it's BP, etc.

This could easily be a 7-0 homestand right now, if anyone on this team was interested in executing like a pro baseball player.

GoSox2K3
04-14-2011, 09:28 AM
Go back and read the threads from the last two bullpen implosions, they're quite hilarious.

Buerhle should have started the ninth
Thornton should have started the ninth

Sale should close
Sale shouldn't have pitched the ninth

April 13th is a bit too early for knee-jerk assumptions.

Oh right, I forgot that these games don't count in the final standings.:rolleyes:

The only thing "hilarious" about reactions to an unacceptable bullpen meltdown is your desperately bad attempts to defend this situation no matter what.

Oh, and please show me where people on this thread were saying that Sale should have pitched the ninth yesterday afternoon pitching 2 innings the night before. Of course nobody said that, but that won't stop you from constantly pulling these comments out of your ass because those are the only good arguments you have.

aryzner
04-14-2011, 09:31 AM
The Twins and Tigers have been giving the Sox every chance they can to bury them DEEP in the standings early in the season, and they're not taking advantage of that.

These games could easily be the difference between a tight division race or the Sox running away with it.

I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a comfortable lead over a close race.

This is the reason why I'm deeply concerned.

GoSox2K3
04-14-2011, 09:45 AM
My only real issue with this week's losses is how our fans are turning into asshats with all the booing, fake cheers and ripping every thing that's not going perfectly. We've led every game, it's not like this is a last-place club.


Yay!!!!!! "All in" for the first 8 innings. Woo!!! :party:

We're on pace to win the "lead in the most number of games" championship!

Jurr
04-14-2011, 09:55 AM
Typically, unless a team is just locked in and hot at the beginning of the year, some phase of the roster is lagging behind. Previous incarnations of the Sox came out with quiet bats, which wasted great bullpen and starting efforts.

This Sox team is having a mini bullpen crisis. It'll get fixed. Hell, the bullpen situation wouldn't be NEARLY as magnified if the defense held up in two of the blown saves. We would be looking at a 9-3 start.....easily.

7-5, given how badly the bullpen and defense has performed, is a godsend.

Hopefully with an off day and some rest, the team can get refocused on closing out games.

Bruizer
04-14-2011, 10:14 AM
What a beautiful day it was yesterday at the Cell! The sun was shining, and it was in the 60's! And Danks looked great through 8 innings!

The ninth though - that was the most painful inning I've ever attended. :(:

I still am hopeful that the Sox will solve their bullpen problems. We'll see tomorrow night, if it doesn't get rained out.

flo-B-flo
04-14-2011, 10:21 AM
cling to........

"7-5, given how badly the bullpen and defense has performed, is a godsend." :gulp::gulp:

Jerko
04-14-2011, 10:22 AM
The kid threw 34 pitches the night before.

And was used again hours later. We think the pen is bad now, wait until they're gassed by June.

kittle42
04-14-2011, 10:29 AM
My only real issue with this week's losses is how our fans are turning into asshats with all the booing, fake cheers and ripping every thing that's not going perfectly. We've led every game, it's not like this is a last-place club.

My opinion is that Crain should close. He's experienced, has closed before, knows the AL hitters (especially ones in the division) and up to that ill advised fastball to Suzuki seemed to thrive on pressure. That also wouldn't throw our young guys to the wolves and let them continue to develop in their roles.

It's nice to see that your opinion on who should close is as misguided as your opinion on our fans and on this team's problems. My first thought was that Jesse Crain has never really closed before. Some very quick research confirms that. Hell, the Twins barely used him in the ninth when they had the committee going for a bit of last season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/crainje01.shtml

Hendu
04-14-2011, 10:31 AM
And was used again hours later. We think the pen is bad now, wait until they're gassed by June.

And they will be gassed by June if we have to keep playing extra innings games due to 9th inning meltdowns.

At least there's an off day today.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 10:46 AM
It's nice to see that your opinion on who should close is as misguided as your opinion on our fans and on this team's problems. My first thought was that Jesse Crain has never really closed before. Some very quick research confirms that. Hell, the Twins barely used him in the ninth when they had the committee going for a bit of last season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/crainje01.shtml

That dude never lets facts get in the way of his bull****. Last year after Nathan went down the Twins used Jon Rausch and then later traded the (at the time) #58 ranked prospect in baseball for Matt Capps. Interesting moves considering they had "closer" Jesse Crain on the team the whole time.

Lip Man 1
04-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Lots of discussion about using Sale and the reason behind it. If you heard Ozzie's comments yesterday you know that Sale told Cooper he could pitch. That brought up, fairly in my opinion, the question of 'what did you think Sale would say, that he can't pitch?'

I asked Chris Rongey about it last night and he had an interesting comment, which does make some sense.

Chris said (paraphrasing) that Sale signed for slot money because he was told it would lead to a quick promotion to the big club. His job was and isn't in any jeopardy if he were to tell Cooper, 'I can't pitch.' Chris said just because he's young he's not risking anything by telling the truth.

I still think no young player in his right mind is ever going to tell a coach or manager he can't play unless there is something seriously wrong but Chris does make a valid point here.

And I noticed that Phil Rogers column today asked the same question that came up yesterday to me from one of the beat wrietrs, if the Sox aren't going to use Gray, why is he on the roster?

The beat writer by the way said he thinks it should be Bruney (sorry about the spelling) because he has some experience in that role. At least he should be on the roster.

Lip

russ99
04-14-2011, 11:38 AM
Oh right, I forgot that these games don't count in the final standings.:rolleyes:

The only thing "hilarious" about reactions to an unacceptable bullpen meltdown is your desperately bad attempts to defend this situation no matter what.

Oh, and please show me where people on this thread were saying that Sale should have pitched the ninth yesterday afternoon pitching 2 innings the night before. Of course nobody said that, but that won't stop you from constantly pulling these comments out of your ass because those are the only good arguments you have.

I'm not pulling these comments out of my ass. Nobody is getting the job done, no matter who is in there. People have a problem with every decision, even if it's different decisions every day with different players.

Leave a guy in, it's ripped. Take a guy out, it's ripped. Put a different guy in, they want the same guy in who can't do the job and they wanted out, and it's ripped.

Yes, the bullpen problem is unacceptable, but how does complaining endlessly about who should have pitched make any difference at all?

Thornton can't complete an inning and yet it's more important for him to start the 9th than Sale because he pitched the day before. Can't anyone else see how ludicrous this is? :scratch:

These are base expectations on all big league relievers and yet it's a big managerial problem when guys are asked to do what is expected as normal within the job and fail.

Funny, nobody's whining about our GM who left us without a closer.

Noneck
04-14-2011, 12:09 PM
And I noticed that Phil Rogers column today asked the same question that came up yesterday to me from one of the beat wrietrs, if the Sox aren't going to use Gray, why is he on the roster?

The beat writer by the way said he thinks it should be Bruney (sorry about the spelling) because he has some experience in that role. At least he should be on the roster.

Lip

Lip,

Did you ask Rongey about this because when a caller brought up the reason why the Sox brought up another pitcher in place of an OFer and possibly starting the 9th yesterday with Gray , Rongey thought that the idea was ludicrous.

JB98
04-14-2011, 01:39 PM
I'm not pulling these comments out of my ass. Nobody is getting the job done, no matter who is in there. People have a problem with every decision, even if it's different decisions every day with different players.

Leave a guy in, it's ripped. Take a guy out, it's ripped. Put a different guy in, they want the same guy in who can't do the job and they wanted out, and it's ripped.

Yes, the bullpen problem is unacceptable, but how does complaining endlessly about who should have pitched make any difference at all?

Thornton can't complete an inning and yet it's more important for him to start the 9th than Sale because he pitched the day before. Can't anyone else see how ludicrous this is? :scratch:

These are base expectations on all big league relievers and yet it's a big managerial problem when guys are asked to do what is expected as normal within the job and fail.

Funny, nobody's whining about our GM who left us without a closer.

The majority of the blame falls to the relievers who are not executing their pitches, but Ozzie is doing a poor job of managing this situation.

Consider this: Thornton threw 33 pitches when he blew the save Friday night against Tampa Bay. Ozzie says Thornton wasn't available Saturday because he threw too many pitches Friday. He wants to protect Matt for the long haul. He doesn't use Matt on Saturday. Cool. I can live with that.

On Monday, Buehrle is cruising along. Nobody reaches second base through the eighth inning. Mark is only at 99 pitches. But Ozzie pulls him, saying that Buehrle has run out of gas the second half of the season the last couple years. He wants to protect him for the long haul. I don't like the move, but hey, I understand the rationale.

Fast forward to Wednesday. Chris Sale threw 35 pitches to earn the win Tuesday night. That's two more than Thornton threw Friday. If he wanted to stay away from Thornton on Saturday after Matt threw 33 pitches Friday, why was he so eager to use Sale the day after Chris threw 35 pitches? It's an inconsistent way of doing things, and it makes me wonder whether Ozzie is just throwing darts at this situation, with no real plan, then rationalizing after the fact.

Matt Thornton is a 34-year-old veteran who has been injured once in the five years he's been with the Sox. Mark Buehrle is a 12-year vet who has thrown over 200 innings for 10 consecutive seasons. We need to protect Matt and Mark, but we can just throw 22-year-old Chris Sale to the wolves? Sale has never been through a full MLB season before. If there's anyone who needs to be handled with care, it is Sale. He's the top prospect in the organization, ya know?

The whole thing is just silly. Seven games at home, and seven leads going into the ninth inning. But only four wins. It's ridiculous.

I'm not just complaining to complain, regardless of what you think. There are legitimate reasons I disagree with this manager. You might not be pulling things out of your ass, but neither am I.

Hendu
04-14-2011, 03:04 PM
Perhaps he just trusts Sale more than Thornton against lefties right now and was hoping Sale could get three quick outs, then get some rest during the off day today.

JB98
04-14-2011, 03:10 PM
Perhaps he just trusts Sale more than Thornton against lefties right now and was hoping Sale could get three quick outs, then get some rest during the off day today.

But Oakland had two righties due to start the ninth.

KMcMahon817
04-14-2011, 03:18 PM
That dude never lets facts get in the way of his bull****. Last year after Nathan went down the Twins used Jon Rausch and then later traded the (at the time) #58 ranked prospect in baseball for Matt Capps. Interesting moves considering they had "closer" Jesse Crain on the team the whole time.

That #58 prospect was also blocked by Joe Mauer. And, the Twins had another good catching prospect in Morales, who has also since been traded. So, that trade wasn't as earth shaterring as you make it out to be.

Crain has looked good in his short time with the SOX so far. But, I don't really want to see him closing. Let's give Sergio his shot, with Thornton and Sale mixed in when lefties are due up.

Hendu
04-14-2011, 03:23 PM
But Oakland had two righties due to start the ninth.

I was just trying to look for some type of rationale, but looks like this takes match-ups out of the equation for bringing Sale out. If Crain was warming up as insurance anyways, why not bring him at the beginning to face the righties?

Guess Ozzie was praying that Sale would step up and take over the closer role since he has our only save on the homestand.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 03:32 PM
But Oakland had two righties due to start the ninth.

:rolling:

I didn't even notice that. The only inning I can think that was more poorly managed than that 9th inning yesterday was last year when Don Mattingly subbing for Joe Torre, walked off the mound and the back on during a coach's visit so he had to pull his pitcher and replace him with someone who was completely cold.

Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie.

delben91
04-14-2011, 03:41 PM
:rolling:

I didn't even notice that. The only inning I can think that was more poorly managed than that 9th inning yesterday was last year when Don Mattingly subbing for Joe Torre, walked off the mound and the back on during a coach's visit so he had to pull his pitcher and replace him with someone who was completely cold.

Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie.

Terry Bevington might be able to compete with that.

Tragg
04-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Classy postgame interview by Ozzie, throwing his bullpen under the bus, despite the fact that it's awfully clear he has no idea how to manage a bullpen when the pieces don't fall into place for him. What a jackass.

I would assume Bobby Jenks is in Boston, just laughing his ass off.

Yep. So much for Guillen taking the heat for the players. Under the bus they went.

soltrain21
04-14-2011, 04:21 PM
Yep. So much for Guillen taking the heat for the players. Under the bus they went.

Guys, guys, guys. It's obvious he is managing his bullpen like an idiot and then throwing them under the bus so it makes us talk about him and not how bad our bullpen is! Remember, he does EVERYTHING for a reason!

Genius strikes again.

Marqhead
04-14-2011, 04:57 PM
He did make a valid point though, when things go right he gets zero credit and the relievers are praised, and when things go wrong he has to sit out there alone and take all the blame.

Now don't get me wrong, he's been managing the bullpen like a moron for some time, but he shouldn't take ALL the blame whenever they blow it. After all, none of these guys can pitch their way out of a paper bag right now.

Crestani
04-14-2011, 06:12 PM
He did make a valid point though, when things go right he gets zero credit and the relievers are praised, and when things go wrong he has to sit out there alone and take all the blame.

Now don't get me wrong, he's been managing the bullpen like a moron for some time, but he shouldn't take ALL the blame whenever they blow it. After all, none of these guys can pitch their way out of a paper bag right now.


Walter Alston would look like a moron with this bullpen right about now..!!

Tragg
04-14-2011, 07:43 PM
He did make a valid point though, when things go right he gets zero credit and the relievers are praised, and when things go wrong he has to sit out there alone and take all the blame..
Once again, to Ozzie, it's all about Ozzie. He doesn't get enough credit. My goodness, his ego needs a rest.
On a side note, I still hate to see the Sox completely devalue top prospects, treating Sale like he's just the usual crap middle reliever.

doublem23
04-14-2011, 09:40 PM
He did make a valid point though, when things go right he gets zero credit and the relievers are praised, and when things go wrong he has to sit out there alone and take all the blame.

Now don't get me wrong, he's been managing the bullpen like a moron for some time, but he shouldn't take ALL the blame whenever they blow it. After all, none of these guys can pitch their way out of a paper bag right now.

I think Ozzie got plenty of credit when the Sox play well. I mean, they called the style that 2005 team "Ozzieball."

I agree the blame ultimately lies with the actual players not making the plays, not making their pitches, but for a while now there's been a serious case of the Sox never seeming to get enough talent out of their players. I don't know who that all falls on, but if Ozzie's going to be the BMOC when the Sox are good, then he gets to take the blame when they suck.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-15-2011, 10:18 AM
He did make a valid point though, when things go right he gets zero credit and the relievers are praised, and when things go wrong he has to sit out there alone and take all the blame.



pshhhh. Whatever Ozzie. I don't recall any of the pitchers getting remotely the credit Ozzie took after 2005. I do recall Ozzie's mug showing up on billboards and advertisements all over town as well as all on seemingly every other radio and television commercial.

Jim Shorts
04-15-2011, 10:30 AM
pshhhh. Whatever Ozzie. I don't recall any of the pitchers getting remotely the credit Ozzie took after 2005. I do recall Ozzie's mug showing up on billboards and advertisements all over town as well as all on seemingly every other radio and television commercial.


I'm trying to figure out if you like the White Sox more than you hate Ozzie. Polls are at 50-50 now