PDA

View Full Version : *Official* Thornton, Pierre earn F's against A's, 2-1 loss postgame therapy thread


Pages : [1] 2

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:47 PM
Disgust...

vinny
04-11-2011, 09:47 PM
The Keystone Cops took over for the Sox in the 9th. What a waste of a gem by Buerhle. :angry:

Go get 'em tomorrow.

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:47 PM
Buehrle deserved better than this.

Viva Medias B's
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
1ytCEuuW2_A

ShoelessJoeS
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Bummer.

I feel like the Sox could easily be 9-1 or 8-2 right now.

DirtySox
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Thornton is responsible for his bad pitching.

Pierre is responsible for his bad fielding.

Ozzie is responsible for yanking Buehrle.


Because it needs to be reposted.

CHISOXFAN13
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
This roster needs a late inning defensive replacement and soon.

Two losses because our left fielder can't catch a fly ball.

And once again, Thornton got hit hard in a save situation.

Pathetic.

ChicagoG19
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
We need to bring in a defensive outfield specialist from the minors.

dwitt76
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Booooo!

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Thorton

0/3 in the 9th.

Sale 1/1.

Make the change.

Or let Santos try.

Anybody but Thornton. He can't do it.

peelwonder
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Matt Thornton's days as a closer are overrrrrrr

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Juan Pierre is lousy. Matt Thornton doesn't have the makeup to be a closer.

Win the next two.

twinslayer
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Took a win from Buerhle. Quite a frustrating game to watch. However, I don't think there is anything to fear when Dunn gets back into the lineup, it seems different with him in so far. I hope I'm right.

Jurr
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
If you're going to overpay for hitting, make sure you at least have marginal guys that can catch a damn fly ball.

Jeez......

PeoriaSoxFan
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
There is no way that MB shouldn't have started the 9th. Thornton and the outfield defy explanation. Team should be 9-1, but sits at 6-4.

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Ozzie deserves an F for yanking Buehrle to start the ninth. He should have had a reliever ready to go, but sent out Buehrle to start the ninth. If he had walked a batter or given up a hard-hit ball, THEN Ozzie should have gone to the pen. But Buehrle deserved the opportunity to get the complete game 1-0 win.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Buehrle was the only one who truly showed up tonight. Everyone else failed one way or another.

Ozzie, please put Matt back in the setup role where he belongs. Make Santos our closer.

SBSoxFan
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
This team should be 9-1. :angry:

Gavin
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
More like White Sux.

Carneyman14
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
my count is the bullpen and stupid errors have accounted for 3 L's so far

oh well 150 more games. Take the series boys

kingpin_rcs
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Somewhere, Bobby Jenks is laughing.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
We need to bring in a defensive outfield specialist from the minors.

:rowand

I'm waiting for the call, guys!

soxnut1018
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
That's now 4 routine fly balls that our left fielders have dropped. :angry:

CATCH THE DAMN BALL!

SoxSpeed22
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
I'm for Santos at this point. Which then begs the question, does Pierre have something against Thorny? This is the second game he's ****ed up for him.

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
We need to bring in a defensive outfield specialist from the minors.

DeAza or Danks?

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
More like White Sux.

Swing and a miss.

russ99
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
Awful... what a waste.

I'm a big fan of Juan, but that was a bad game all around for him.

Once Dunn is healthy, maybe Lillibridge should start playing LF in late innings.

Thornton needs to go back to his usual 8th spot and get his confidence back.

Maybe Santos as closer?

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 09:50 PM
Somewhere, Bobby Jenks is laughing.

Yeah, in his 2-8 Red Sox uniform.

Gavin
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Swing and a miss.

You should post a funny meme!!!!

JB98
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Crap like this is why this organization finishes in second place so frequently.

Ten games in, and they already have two losses (at home, no less) when leading after eight.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
:rowand

I'm waiting for the call, guys!

The San Francisco Giants might have something to say about that.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
You should post a funny meme!!!!

Your post wasn't worth the effort.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
More like White Sux.

I expect that sort of talk from northsidebaseball, but not here.

Gavin
04-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Your post wasn't worth the effort.

http://www.hatersgoingtohate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/haters-gonna-hate-flutekid.jpg

skobabe8
04-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Santos. Please.

Viva Medias B's
04-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Somewhere, Bobby Jenks is laughing.

:ozzie:
"And I'm laughing at his team's **** record."

ChiSoxGal85
04-11-2011, 09:52 PM
What a waste of a great outing by Mark Buerhle. Sox bats were too quiet to recover from yet another blown save by Matt.

Matt's not cutting it. Move him back to setup. Sergio or Sale should get a shot. 3rd blown save early in the year is NOT good.

And Jesus, Juan...misplay that in your home ballpark?

:gah:

Noneck
04-11-2011, 09:53 PM
You dont win many games scoring only 1 run.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 09:53 PM
The San Francisco Giants might have something to say about that.

Didn't you see the thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2725515#post2725515)? He's coming back!!

aryzner
04-11-2011, 09:53 PM
What a giant truckload of bull****.

STOP MAKING ERRORS.

cws05champ
04-11-2011, 09:53 PM
There is no way that MB shouldn't have started the 9th. Thornton and the outfield defy explanation. Team should be 9-1, but sits at 6-4.
This.

99 pitches.....99 PITCHES!! The way MB was dealing you have to let him finish. Unless Buehrle comes and says, I can't go, he should have been out there. You can't just hang this one on Thornton and Pierre. Ozzie has had a horrible start to the season IMO. They should be at least 8-2 and yet we are at 6-4.

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:54 PM
:ozzie:
"And I'm laughing at his team's **** record."

Yes, but Sox fans are crying at Ozzie's pitiful management of the pitching staff. Buehrle deserved to start the ninth.

Hendu
04-11-2011, 09:54 PM
So we have a left fielder who has no power, doesn't get on base very well, and can't catch the ball. How sad is it that we may need a late-inning defensive replacement for Juan Pierre? At least we don't need a pinch runner to replace him... :rolleyes:

And Thornton really shouldn't be closing a tight game until he can get his **** together. All three batters he faced hit the ball very hard.

DirtySox
04-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Didn't you see the thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2725515#post2725515)? He's coming back!!

That reminds me, where is Rockabilly?

Soxman219
04-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Ozzie did an absolutely pathetic job managing tonight, pathetic.

Thornton is not a closer, put him back in 8th inning duty, why fix something that was never broken?

We got Juan Soriano out there who can't catch the ball and has been awful.

What a mess, this team should have the best record in baseball tied with the Rangers, instead we're in the middle of the road team.

Gavin
04-11-2011, 09:55 PM
I know that our bullpen sucks, but I'd like to see what the posters here would be saying if MB gives up a solo shot to start the ninth. "Oh, well, he deserved to start the ninth." Sure.

asindc
04-11-2011, 09:55 PM
There is no way that MB shouldn't have started the 9th. Thornton and the outfield defy explanation. Team should be 9-1, but sits at 6-4.

As soon as they came back from commercial and showed Buehrle taking off his shoes, I said "Why?" I would really like to hear Ozzie explain that one. :mad:

Thornton has no confidence in his slider. He should not be closing now. Santos or Sale.

TheOldRoman
04-11-2011, 09:56 PM
So, is Matt Thornton a fat piece of **** yet?

ChicagoG19
04-11-2011, 09:56 PM
DeAza or Danks?

DeAza is already on 40 man roster, so why not.

asindc
04-11-2011, 09:56 PM
I know that our bullpen sucks, but I'd like to see what the posters here would be saying if MB gives up a solo shot to start the ninth. "Oh, well, he deserved to start the ninth." Sure.

He was still throwing very well and only Willingham had solved him. What harm would it have done?

cheezheadsoxfan
04-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Ozzie deserves an F for yanking Buehrle to start the ninth. He should have had a reliever ready to go, but sent out Buehrle to start the ninth. If he had walked a batter or given up a hard-hit ball, THEN Ozzie should have gone to the pen. But Buehrle deserved the opportunity to get the complete game 1-0 win.
This!

Jollyroger2
04-11-2011, 09:57 PM
Crap like this is why this organization finishes in second place so frequently.

Ten games in, and they already have two losses (at home, no less) when leading after eight.

Was about to say something similar. Three losses that could be wins. This team and management needs to decide rght now if they're serious about winning this year. They have the offense and starting pitching to be very very good.

But if they're going to keep screwing around with bad defense and blown relief efforts, whats the point?

Frater Perdurabo
04-11-2011, 09:58 PM
DeAza is already on 40 man roster, so why not.

DeAza up, Lillibridge DFA? Fine with me.

The Immigrant
04-11-2011, 09:59 PM
So, is Matt Thornton a fat piece of **** yet?

No, he just sucks at pitching right now and his confidence is shot. Bobby Jenks, on the other hand...

Soxman219
04-11-2011, 09:59 PM
I know that our bullpen sucks, but I'd like to see what the posters here would be saying if MB gives up a solo shot to start the ninth. "Oh, well, he deserved to start the ninth." Sure.

I rather ride with the guy who was on cruise control through 8 innings and only threw 99 pitches than the guy who's scared to close the 9th and has already blown 2 saves.

kittle42
04-11-2011, 10:00 PM
DeAza up, Lillibridge DFA? Fine with me.

But Lillibridge hit a homer today, thereby securing his job for at least a month, because if there is one thing this organization loves, it's homers.

slavko
04-11-2011, 10:00 PM
Matt started the 9th with 2 of his crappy sliders in an unhittable location, at the knees, wasted a fastball high and threw a cookie of a slider that went for a double. Every batter hit the ball hard. Location is as much of a problem for him as it was for Liney, who had better stuff. Juan can't catch or throw, I was only half wrong. That lost in the stars whiff to tie the game reminded me of well, Pods. His hitting is reverting to the spring norm, mediocre. Lillebridge? He's dropped one too this year.

I'm not happy that I was right about Matt, but I was right. He won't have a save chance for a while, if I read the tea leaves correctly. Should be 9-1. Hurts, but not as much as the last blown save. You get used to the pain.

amsteel
04-11-2011, 10:00 PM
The thought of losing 30% of our games due to the bullpen and defense is not comforting

ohthosechisox
04-11-2011, 10:02 PM
As much as I would love for the team to try a new closer (that's all I'm asking), my gut says they will stick with Thornton out of loyalty. :mad:

I just want to lose normally. No more of these games that could very well cost us in the long run.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:02 PM
You dont win many games scoring only 1 run.

http://bryancmontgomery.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/2005worldseries.jpg

OmahaSoxFan
04-11-2011, 10:02 PM
Wow, I was willing to give Thornton a pass after the other night, but two in a row... I think Ozzie needs to move Santos to the closer spot, move Sale into the 8th inning spot and demote Matt to the 7th inning spot until he gets his **** together.

And Ozzie needs to check his head, pulling MB at 99 pitches and just three outs to go for a complete game shut out. What is wrong with sending him out there on a short leash, and yanking him for Matt if a base-runner got aboard. I know its early in the season and Ozzie is trying to protect his pitching staff, but letting a great game go to waste has too hurt the team's psyche just a little bit.

And Juan Pierre desperately needs some fielding lessons again... I know he isn't a great fielder by any means but these 9th inning errors have been ridiculous... don't forget he almost caused an error on a routine pop fly that Alexei had to finish the ninth.

soltrain21
04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Was about to say something similar. Three losses that could be wins. This team and management needs to decide rght now if they're serious about winning this year. They have the offense and starting pitching to be very very good.

But if they're going to keep screwing around with bad defense and blown relief efforts, whats the point?

We don't have anything to trade for anyone.

Crooked Number
04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Buehrle: 8IP 1BB 0ER 99PC

I know you are trying to prove that you have faith in Thornton Oz. But this was not the night to do it. One of the biggest managing blunders he has made in recent memory. This one is on Ozzie. The pen is shaky right now. Mark was absolutely dominating. This is a big loss. Big.

Alfonso Pierre drops another one. In the ninth, no less. Then he narrowly misses bringing in the winning run all by himself by crashing into Alexei just minutes later. Williams better be on the phone right now getting the Sox a defensive late inning replacement outfielder. Now. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am just racking my brain as to why Ozzie pulls Mark. He is not known for this. Oz always lets starters go out to at least try and finish it. If the lead off guy gets on, thats when he goes to the pen. Im just at a loss here.

Santos for closer please. The Thornton expirement is over. The miscues in the field are unfortunate, but that lead off double was absolutely crushed. It was academic. What a terrific ballgame wasted.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
As much as I would love for the team to try a new closer (that's all I'm asking), my gut says they will stick with Thornton out of loyalty. :mad:

I just want to lose normally. No more of these games that could very well cost us in the long run.

I'm fairly certain we won't see him there next save opportunity rolls around.

russ99
04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Was about to say something similar. Three losses that could be wins. This team and management needs to decide rght now if they're serious about winning this year. They have the offense and starting pitching to be very very good.

But if they're going to keep screwing around with bad defense and blown relief efforts, whats the point?

I know you guys need to vent, but one error, and we have a bad defense?

Did you watch the other 8 innings? Tons of good defensive plays, even one by Juan...

The closer issue needs to be settled. I can't understand why Mark was lifted, but I can understand why Thornton was put in - that's his role.

Not sure if it's his role anymore. Maybe it's telling that Ozzie didn't leave him in, like the last time.

One could also say all the impatient at-bats the last 3 innings lead to this loss as well, since we all knew 1 run wouldn't be enough. How many 1-0 wins did we have last year? 2.

I'll be happy to see the regular lineup back tomorrow, including Dunn and hopefully some movement on the bullpen roles. We can't expect these guys to go 8 innings everyday.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:04 PM
Wow, I was willing to give Thornton a pass after the other night, but two in a row... I think Ozzie needs to move Santos to the closer spot, move Sale into the 8th inning spot and demote Matt to the 7th inning spot until he gets his **** together.

And Ozzie needs to check his head, pulling MB at 99 pitches and just three outs to go for a complete game shut out. What is wrong with sending him out there on a short leash, and yanking him for Matt if a base-runner got aboard. I know its early in the season and Ozzie is trying to protect his pitching staff, but letting a great game go to waste has too hurt the team's psyche just a little bit.

And Juan Pierre desperately needs some fielding lessons again... I know he isn't a great fielder by any means but these 9th inning errors have been ridiculous... don't forget he almost caused an error on a routine pop fly that Alexei had to finish the ninth.

It's actually three in a row now.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:05 PM
As much as I would love for the team to try a new closer (that's all I'm asking), my gut says they will stick with Thornton out of loyalty. :mad:
The organization is smarter than this. They didn't hesitate to replace Shingo in 2005. I'd include Hermanson in that statement too, but his downfall was mostly due to injuries.

OmahaSoxFan
04-11-2011, 10:05 PM
It's actually three in a row now.

Yep, missed the third one... guess I was trying to forget that mess too... :angry:

daveeym
04-11-2011, 10:05 PM
As much as I would love for the team to try a new closer (that's all I'm asking), my gut says they will stick with Thornton out of loyalty. :mad:

I just want to lose normally. No more of these games that could very well cost us in the long run.
Loyalty is what has them in this mess. Thornton's whining that he deserved a shot at closing got him the job. *** is Sale doing here if not to close?

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 10:05 PM
I know you guys need to vent, but one error, and we have a bad defense?

Did you watch the other 8 innings? Tons of good defensive plays, even one by Juan...


And once Bud Selig changes an official game to eight innings, the Sox are set!

LoveYourSuit
04-11-2011, 10:06 PM
As I said in the game thread, my positive spin on this is to find out early that the thing is broke here in April so you can fix it right away. And we are still playing above .500 baseball despite the circus on defense, bunting, executing, and the bullpen.

So fix it. Figure it out and fix it.

I feel so much better about finding out now than having the bulpen implode on us in June and in July after being procalimed as the best bullpen in history by one Joe Morgan.

This offense is going to hit this team to 90+ wins this year folks. Sit back relax and strap it down.

LongLiveFisk
04-11-2011, 10:06 PM
And Ozzie needs to check his head, pulling MB at 99 pitches and just three outs to go for a complete game shut out. What is wrong with sending him out there on a short leash, and yanking him for Matt if a base-runner got aboard. I know its early in the season and Ozzie is trying to protect his pitching staff, but letting a great game go to waste has too hurt the team's psyche just a little bit.


Not to mention these are the exact type of games you look back on when it gets down to the wire. When you lose the division or wild card by only one or two games, these giveaway games just piss you off to no end.

soxstarter
04-11-2011, 10:06 PM
Pity fullllllllll:(:

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:07 PM
Yep, missed the third one... guess I was trying to forget that mess too... :angry:

Well, we did win that game.

tstrike2000
04-11-2011, 10:08 PM
Pierre's second error in less than a week most likely cost the Sox a win in both of those games. And if Thornton doesn't develop a breaking pitch, it doesn't bode well for his future as a closer. Buehrle deserves so much than this crap.

mrs. hendu
04-11-2011, 10:09 PM
:angry: No excuse for letting another lead slip away.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:09 PM
Williams better be on the phone right now getting the Sox a defensive late inning replacement outfielder. Now. This is absolutely ridiculous.

We'd have to pick someone off waivers or free agency. There's nobody to trade right now.

Jollyroger2
04-11-2011, 10:10 PM
I know you guys need to vent, but one error, and we have a bad defense?

Did you watch the other 8 innings? Tons of good defensive plays, even one by Juan...

The closer issue needs to be settled. I can't understand why Mark was lifted, but I can understand why Thornton was put in - that's his role.

Not sure if it's his role anymore. Maybe it's telling that Ozzie didn't leave him in, like the last time.

One could also say all the impatient at-bats the last 3 innings lead to this loss as well, since we all knew 1 run wouldn't be enough. How many 1-0 wins did we have last year? 2.

I'll be happy to see the regular lineup back tomorrow, including Dunn and hopefully some movement on the bullpen roles. We can't expect these guys to go 8 innings everyday.

Fielders are supposed to make great plays, that's what they get paid for. Not to have their heads up their butts and bumble a routine play that ends up causing a loss.

Yeah it's one game. These games add up. They count just as much now as in September. It's one error tonight. It's another blown save tonight. This team could be 9-1. Instead they're screwing around and like someone else said, games like this are why this team ends up in 2nd place.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-11-2011, 10:10 PM
Ozzie has been way too involved trying to get cute at every opportunity so far this year. 99 pitches? come on

Also, i thought pinch running teahen was silly. I'd rather keep Paulie's bat in the game. (if it was a much faster runner than teahen my opinion would be different.

cws05champ
04-11-2011, 10:10 PM
I'm fairly certain we won't see him there next save opportunity rolls around.
No doubt...when Thornton was pulled in the middle of the 9th in a tie, that was a clear sign that Ozzie doesn't really trust him right now.

The thing that I hate about Ozzie (and he has done this a lot over the years) will say, well maybe we'll give somebody else a chance to close, or we'll go by situation. Then the next game, same old ****. I understand he is trying to get the confidence back for the closer (be it Bobby before or Thornton), but when you have given up this many games this early in the season....upper management has to be livid.

asindc
04-11-2011, 10:10 PM
Buehrle was the only one who truly showed up tonight. Everyone else failed one way or another.

Ozzie, please put Matt back in the setup role where he belongs. Make Santos our closer.

Man, you really are upset. Let's see...

Pauly and Lillibridge also had good games.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 10:11 PM
Fielders are supposed to make great plays, that's what they get paid for. Not to have their heads up their butts and bumble a routine play that ends up causing a loss.


Fields are supposed to make routine plays, not great plays. Juan Pierre can't seem to make the routine plays.

TheOldRoman
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
As much as I was angry to see Thornton coming into the game, Ozzie didn't make the wrong call pulling Buehrle. First off, he had thrown 99 pitches already, and for someone like Buehrle who has worn down as the season progressed a few times, you call it a day at that. He pitched a great game and deserved to get the win. He also deserved not to be put in a situation where he could lose. Closers are most effective when they start an inning. I wouldn't want Mark to go back out at 100 pitches and give up a hit, at which point you have to bring in Thornton, now with a runner on. Ozzie made the right call. It is Thornton's fault he pitches like **** again, and of course the Pierror contributed.

LoveYourSuit
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I know you guys need to vent, but one error, and we have a bad defense?
.


You have one plus fielder in the IF and one probably in CF.

Beckham and Morel still too new to judge.

But your OF corners are below average, and your catcher can't throw anyone out.

Let's not kid ourselves, it's not a good defensive team. But we all knew this, so I don't understand the shock.

The Bullpen situation, meanwhile, can be fixed. Plenty of quality arms in there to shuffle around and figure out roles by the time June and July come around.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
Man, you really are upset. Let's see...

Pauly and Lillibridge also had good games.
Lillibridge failed in the 10th though. That's where he fell off my radar. And you're right, Paulie isn't exactly to blame.

Brian26
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
This team should be 9-1. :angry:

Team should be 8-2. If you're going to reverse the bullpen meltdowns on our end, you have to give KC a second chance in the Soria meltdown game too.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I think it's ridiculous that people are honestly trying to pin this one on Ozzie.

Pierre, or Thornton. Okay.

But Ozzie? GMAB

It's Mark's third start of the year. He was a pitch away from 100. It's still only 1-0. Also, you have to take into account Buehrle's tendency to get tired by the end of the season as a result of all the innings building up on him.

I think it's perfectly understandable to want to pull him in that situation this early in the season.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 10:12 PM
As much as I was angry to see Thornton coming into the game, Ozzie didn't make the wrong call pulling Buehrle. First off, he had thrown 99 pitches already, and for someone like Buehrle who has worn down as the season progressed a few times, you call it a day at that. He pitched a great game and deserved to get the win. He also deserved not to be put in a situation where he could lose. Closers are most effective when they start an inning. I wouldn't want Mark to go back out at 100 pitches and give up a hit, at which point you have to bring in Thornton, now with a runner on. Ozzie made the right call. It is Thornton's fault he pitches like **** again, and of course the Pierror contributed.

I ****ing love this post.

VMSNS
04-11-2011, 10:13 PM
I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but I just don't think Matt has the makeup of a closer. When it was announced that he was going to be our closer, my immediate reaction was "Why try to fix something that isn't broken?"

I'm not looking at the numbers right now, but I'm pretty sure Matt has had three save opportunities so far, and has blown every one. He's a good pitcher and I'm confident that he'll bounce back eventually, but I just don't think he's the right guy for the job. Perhaps they should go to a closer by committee with Sale, Santos, or maybe even Crain.

...and speaking of Crain, what the hell was with his pitch selection against Suzuki? Crain has him 0-2 after striking out the previous two with his curve, and he grooves a fastball right down the middle that ends up in the bullpen. Bad, bad, bad.

LoveYourSuit
04-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Man, you really are upset. Let's see...

Pauly and Lillibridge also had good games.


What's your measurement of a good game?

Ist it not going 0 for?:scratch:

Noneck
04-11-2011, 10:14 PM
http://bryancmontgomery.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/2005worldseries.jpg

Thank you, That made me smile.

Hendu
04-11-2011, 10:14 PM
As much as I was angry to see Thornton coming into the game, Ozzie didn't make the wrong call pulling Buehrle. First off, he had thrown 99 pitches already, and for someone like Buehrle who has worn down as the season progressed a few times, you call it a day at that. He pitched a great game and deserved to get the win. He also deserved not to be put in a situation where he could lose. Closers are most effective when they start an inning. I wouldn't want Mark to go back out at 100 pitches and give up a hit, at which point you have to bring in Thornton, now with a runner on. Ozzie made the right call. It is Thornton's fault he pitches like **** again, and of course the Pierror contributed.

Agreed. Bringing in the closer was the right call. Unfortunately, the "closer" was Thornton. :(:

WhiteSox5187
04-11-2011, 10:15 PM
These are the games that haunt you when the Twins start surging in August and September. It appears that Matt Thornton will join the long list of set up men who could not make the conversion to closer. What is worst is his cinfidence could very well be shattered and he might not be an effective setup man anymore. Also the lack of a fourth outfielder is hurting this team. If we lose the division you can point to those two things as big factors why.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:15 PM
Ozzie has been way too involved trying to get cute at every opportunity so far this year. 99 pitches? come on

Also, i thought pinch running teahen was silly. I'd rather keep Paulie's bat in the game. (if it was a much faster runner than teahen my opinion would be different.

It's a moot point since Paul didn't get another at-bat and Teahen didn't make any errors at 1st.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:16 PM
I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but I just don't think Matt has the makeup of a closer. When it was announced that he was going to be our closer, my immediate reaction was "Why try to fix something that isn't broken?"
The problem is it was already broken. Jenks had fallen out of favor and no one else was proven. The natural decision was to turn to their best reliever. Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out. Now we're left scrambling to find someone else.

LongLiveFisk
04-11-2011, 10:16 PM
As much as I was angry to see Thornton coming into the game, Ozzie didn't make the wrong call pulling Buehrle. First off, he had thrown 99 pitches already, and for someone like Buehrle who has worn down as the season progressed a few times, you call it a day at that. He pitched a great game and deserved to get the win. He also deserved not to be put in a situation where he could lose. Closers are most effective when they start an inning. I wouldn't want Mark to go back out at 100 pitches and give up a hit, at which point you have to bring in Thornton, now with a runner on. Ozzie made the right call. It is Thornton's fault he pitches like **** again, and of course the Pierror contributed.

Pierror. :lol:

slavko
04-11-2011, 10:17 PM
The organization is smarter than this. They didn't hesitate to replace Shingo in 2005. I'd include Hermanson in that statement too, but his downfall was mostly due to injuries.

Coop hinted at it in his Saturday show on WSCR. Trust that on field management understands the situation. Hermie's back broke down, period. What a gutsy closer he was until then. Whoever said it's better that it happens now was right on.

No I don't regret not keeping Jenks and his drama. Putz, on the other hand........

1989
04-11-2011, 10:17 PM
Swing and a miss.

Did Morel bat again?

sox1970
04-11-2011, 10:19 PM
I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but I just don't think Matt has the makeup of a closer. When it was announced that he was going to be our closer, my immediate reaction was "Why try to fix something that isn't broken?"

I'm not looking at the numbers right now, but I'm pretty sure Matt has had three save opportunities so far, and has blown every one. He's a good pitcher and I'm confident that he'll bounce back eventually, but I just don't think he's the right guy for the job. Perhaps they should go to a closer by committee with Sale, Santos, or maybe even Crain.

...and speaking of Crain, what the hell was with his pitch selection against Suzuki? Crain has him 0-2 after striking out the previous two with his curve, and he grooves a fastball right down the middle that ends up in the bullpen. Bad, bad, bad.

I look at it this way...

If Thornton were a free agent after last season, would a different team want to sign a 34-year-old setup guy that has never closed, or even shown interest in closing?

The answer is no, and that's why he shouldn't be the closer for the White Sox. It's just not his thing.

asindc
04-11-2011, 10:19 PM
What's your measurement of a good game?

Ist it not going 0 for?:scratch:

Man, folks are on edge. Well, 3 blown saves 10 games into the season will do that.

Pauly had two hits and played solid defense. 'Bridge scored our only run on a HR. I would say those are good efforts, yes. You disagree?

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 10:19 PM
Did Morel bat again?

Okay, this is pretty funny.

LoveYourSuit
04-11-2011, 10:20 PM
Agreed. Bringing in the closer was the right call. Unfortunately, the "closer" was Thornton. :(:


I hate the fact that because of this (what appears to be) failed experiment, Thornton is getting torched by Sox fans. And it's only natural for fans to react this way. Not blaming them.

I just hope his mind is strong enough to forget all of this when they plug him back to his all-star role of set up man.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:21 PM
No I don't regret not keeping Jenks and his drama. Putz, on the other hand........
I miss Putz too, but there was nothing we could have done to stop it.

canOcorn
04-11-2011, 10:21 PM
As much as I was angry to see Thornton coming into the game, Ozzie didn't make the wrong call pulling Buehrle. First off, he had thrown 99 pitches already, and for someone like Buehrle who has worn down as the season progressed a few times, you call it a day at that. He pitched a great game and deserved to get the win. He also deserved not to be put in a situation where he could lose. Closers are most effective when they start an inning. I wouldn't want Mark to go back out at 100 pitches and give up a hit, at which point you have to bring in Thornton, now with a runner on. Ozzie made the right call. It is Thornton's fault he pitches like **** again, and of course the Pierror contributed.

Ozzie didn't make the wrong call to pull MB, but he has his bullpen order all messed up and it shouldn't be a surprise that he's **** the bed multiple times this year with his choices. He doesn't have a clue about the bullpen and never has.......

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:22 PM
I miss Putz too, but there was nothing we could have done to stop it.

:KW

"You could have showed up to the goddamn ballpark."

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Ozzie didn't make the wrong call to pull MB, but he has his bullpen order all messed up and it shouldn't be a surprise that he's **** the bed multiple times this year with his choices. He doesn't have a clue about the bullpen and never has.......

I'm shocked that you authored this post.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 10:23 PM
:KW

"You could have showed up to the goddamnd ballpark."
Okay, that brought a smile to my face.:D:

cws05champ
04-11-2011, 10:23 PM
This is the first time I remember Juan getting boo'd as lustily as he was. It was justified....but I'm just saying.

beasly213
04-11-2011, 10:24 PM
Yeah.. that sucked ass. Was fun to watch Buehrle deal out there but I agreed with pulling him in the 9th. Thorton came in and gave up three hard hit balls. One of them happened to be right at Konerko the other was hit pretty damn hard too even if Juan dropped it.

I think Thortons days as are closer are done and it's up to Sale or Santos to grab that role now.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:25 PM
I think this pretty much sums up our feelings:

XhI0OVs_zj0

SpartanSoxFan
04-11-2011, 10:25 PM
Its painfully obvious that Thornton doesn't have the chops to cut it as a closer. He didn't make it to the All-Star game last year as a closer...he made it as a set-up guy. Oh, and he throws ONE PITCH. Give Sale a chance for crying out loud already. He has much better stuff than Thornton.

cheezheadsoxfan
04-11-2011, 10:29 PM
As I said in the game thread, my positive spin on this is to find out early that the thing is broke here in April so you can fix it right away. And we are still playing above .500 baseball despite the circus on defense, bunting, executing, and the bullpen.

So fix it. Figure it out and fix it.

I feel so much better about finding out now than having the bulpen implode on us in June and in July after being procalimed as the best bullpen in history by one Joe Morgan.

This offense is going to hit this team to 90+ wins this year folks. Sit back relax and strap it down.

I tend to agree. As painful as this kind of loss is, better to see this now with plenty of time to fix it.

Hendu
04-11-2011, 10:30 PM
I hate the fact that because of this (what appears to be) failed experiment, Thornton is getting torched by Sox fans. And it's only natural for fans to react this way. Not blaming them.

I just hope his mind is strong enough to forget all of this when they plug him back to his all-star role of set up man.

I'm sure he'll be fine. By June we'll probably have forgotten about this. Like others have said, better to find out now that he's not cut out for that role instead of later in the season. Hopefully he can come in during some lower-pressure situations to work his way out of this funk.

asindc
04-11-2011, 10:30 PM
Ok, I'm done venting. EJ on the bump tomorrow and we will be getting Dunn and Peavy back soon. We have Santos and Sale as options and Thornton will pitch well again for us as a setup guy. Looks good going forward. Good night all. :smile:

GrandValleyBB10
04-11-2011, 10:32 PM
You can blame Thornton all you want, but he had no business being out there. Granted he gave up 3 relatively hard hit balls in the inning, but at 98 pitches and only 2 hits and a walk through 8 innings and you dont give the guy the opportunity to finish it, or even leave him out there for a base runner?? that is just pere stupidity and I cannot stand to watch it! Buehrle gets probably 2 ground balls and a pop up in the 9th to win it. Win goes to oakland, loss to guillen..

GoGoCrede
04-11-2011, 10:35 PM
Lost in the Pierre and Thornton debacle is the fact that Lillibridge was our offense.

Froze my ass off. They better win tomorrow.

SoxSpeed22
04-11-2011, 10:38 PM
I think this pretty much sums up our feelings:

XhI0OVs_zj0Why has this not been brought to our attention sooner?

GoGoCrede
04-11-2011, 10:38 PM
Somewhere, Bobby Jenks is laughing.

I take it you didn't see the final score of the Red Sox-Rays game. He has other things to worry about.

Crooked Number
04-11-2011, 10:38 PM
Did Morel bat again?

He did his best Brian Anderson impression there in the 9th with that ab. Man that was a quick and painless death.

Also, Pierror is brilliant.

To those saying Ozzie made the right call by pulling Mark: He is only one of the most durable Sox pitchers of all time. To claim that he may struggle later in the year because he is stretched to late in games? He is an innings machine. If we had a closer who had been dealing, and proven that he can get the job done, then yes, this decision would be less confusing.

However, this is not the case thus far. Matt has been extremely volatile. Bad managing. You let Mark Buehrle try to finish his brilliant performance. He earned it. His game to blow. Especially under 100 pitches going into the 9th. The argument that bringing the closer in with men on? How many times in the past had Ozzie let his starters try to finish games, where they gave up singles in the 9th, and then got Jenks? All the time. Thats what closers do.

Pulling Mark is so unlike Ozzie. That's what is really puzzling. He always lets his guys try to finish when dealing. Just a total :scratch:

BainesHOF
04-11-2011, 10:40 PM
Errors happen. They're part of the game, especially on a windy night.

Ozzie was atrocious. If you can't send a pitcher who's working on a dominating 2-hitter to start the ninth, then what does it take? A no-hitter? My goodness, Buehrle had allowed only three balls hit out of the infield up to that point. Only an idiot would take out Buehrle at that point. We have a good team, but it may not be good enough to overcome our manager.

By the way, what a gutless performance by the Chicago media in their interviewing of Ozzie after the game. Every single one of those reporters in that room is useless. Is it really that hard to ask Ozzie in a direct manner why he didn't send Buehrle back out for the ninth?

daveeym
04-11-2011, 10:41 PM
He did his best Brian Anderson impression there in the 9th with that ab. Man that was a quick and painless death.

Also, Pierror is brilliant.

To those saying Ozzie made the right call by pulling Mark: He is only one of the most durable Sox pitchers of all time. To claim that he may struggle later in the year because he is stretched to late in games? He is an innings machine. If we had a closer who had been dealing, and proven that he can get the job done, then yes, this decision would be less confusing.

However, this is not the case thus far. Matt has been extremely volatile. Bad managing. You let Mark Buehrle try to finish his brilliant performance. He earned it. His game to blow. Especially under 100 pitches going into the 9th. The argument that bringing the closer in with men on? How many times in the past had Ozzie let his starters try to finish games, where they gave up singles in the 9th, and then got Jenks? All the time. Thats what closers do.

Pulling Mark is so unlike Ozzie. That's what is really puzzling. He always lets his guys try to finish when dealing. Just a total :scratch:
And on top of it the game was flying by and MB wasn't sitting getting cold out there.

JermaineDye05
04-11-2011, 10:43 PM
Errors happen. They're part of the game, especially on a windy night.

Ozzie was atrocious. If you can't send a pitcher who's working on a dominating 2-hitter to start the ninth, then what does it take? A no-hitter? My goodness, Buehrle had allowed only three balls hit out of the infield up to that point. Only an idiot would take out Buehrle at that point. We have a good team, but it may not be good enough to overcome our manager.

By the way, what a gutless performance by the Chicago media in their interviewing of Ozzie after the game. Every single one of those reporters in that room is useless. Is it really that hard to ask Ozzie in a direct manner why he didn't send Buehrle back out for the ninth?

What's the point? The answer is pretty obvious. It's April 11, not June 11.

Even if you don't agree with it, that's probably what you would have heard from Ozzie.

TDog
04-11-2011, 10:46 PM
If it's any consolation, the A's beat the Twins this weekend in a game where the only run scored on a Twins error.

Of course, this is no consolation. This game was awful. Buehrle outpitched Braden. People count pitches these days, and with concern that he might go over 100 and that hitters will have him timed the fourth time through the order. And, really, you don't know what the A's hitters would have done the fourth time through the order. If the leadoff hitter gets on against Buehrle, the bullpen would be working from a big hole. Bringing in Thornton certainly made sense on paper. After facing Buehrle for eight innings, Thornton's 97 mph fastball will look like 102.

Last summer, people were talking about how they were looking forward to a White Sox bullpen without Bobby Jenks. Some were even smug about it when I wrote that I believed that was a mistake. Jenks made people too nervous. He didn't blow away hitters. Too much contact. Thornton comes in tonight, gets two strikes on the ninth-place hitter and gets ripped for a double before Crisp hits the crap out of the ball for an out. He wasn't fooling anybody before he gave up the deep fly that Pierre dropped. How can White Sox fans not miss Bobby Jenks?

Unfortunately, the game was won on a two-strike, two-out home run by a legitimate Sox-killer.

It almost seems mental now, as if when pitchers come in from the bullpen they are pitching not to lose instead of to win. I hope it doesn't get worse before it turns around.

GoGoCrede
04-11-2011, 10:49 PM
And once Bud Selig changes an official game to eight innings, the Sox are set!

I loled at this and "Pierror." Brilliant.

palehozenychicty
04-11-2011, 10:50 PM
To be honest, if we don't have a closer and we know that now, we are in good shape. Looks like we need a left fielder too. If Mitchell hadn't broken his ankle, he could be close. Now who knows if he'll make it up?

Luckily, we see now that Thornton doesn't have the makeup. Nothing demoralizes a team more than a pen who can't close the game.

1989
04-11-2011, 10:52 PM
9 pages for a post-game thread of a spring training game?

You guys are way too hardcore

Lip Man 1
04-11-2011, 10:53 PM
The good news is after ten games they are two games ahead of last year's terrible start. :D:

------------------------------------------------

T-Dog, I don't miss that fat, sack of **** regardless of how many games the Sox urinate away. I don't miss his going on the DL more and more, his inability to keep himself in shape (which factors into WHY he's seeing more and more time on the DL) and his complaining about how unfair things are.

Please.

This will get worked out. I'm not happy about it, believe me, but it's April not August they have some time to get it fixed.

If anybody thinks Cleveland is going to continue with this pace with the garbage they have on that club, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

---------------------------------

Complain (with justification) about the bullpen (and it does demoralize a club big-time) but it still comes down to FUNDAMENTALS. Catching the baseball, moving runners over, getting bunts down and through the first ten games the Sox are looking awful in this crucial area. (Despite Ozzie's protestations about working on it in spring training...:rolleyes:)

Lip

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-11-2011, 10:56 PM
He did his best Brian Anderson impression there in the 9th with that ab. Man that was a quick and painless death.

Also, Pierror is brilliant.

To those saying Ozzie made the right call by pulling Mark: He is only one of the most durable Sox pitchers of all time. To claim that he may struggle later in the year because he is stretched to late in games? He is an innings machine. If we had a closer who had been dealing, and proven that he can get the job done, then yes, this decision would be less confusing.

However, this is not the case thus far. Matt has been extremely volatile. Bad managing. You let Mark Buehrle try to finish his brilliant performance. He earned it. His game to blow. Especially under 100 pitches going into the 9th. The argument that bringing the closer in with men on? How many times in the past had Ozzie let his starters try to finish games, where they gave up singles in the 9th, and then got Jenks? All the time. Thats what closers do.

Pulling Mark is so unlike Ozzie. That's what is really puzzling. He always lets his guys try to finish when dealing. Just a total :scratch:

While that all makes sense, if your team has a closer, you use him. Had Thornton came in and got Oakland 1, 2, 3 no one would have cared that Buehrle was pulled. Every other team does the same thing. Sure Buehrle has been very durable, but why let him go that deep when you shouldn't have to? It was a 1-0 game. Had the score been a greater lead I'd agree to letting Buehrle finish.

KMcMahon817
04-11-2011, 10:59 PM
This roster needs a late inning defensive replacement and soon.

Two losses because our left fielder can't catch a fly ball.



I don't disagree with you, but most here would say that defensive replacement should go in RF for Carlos.

I don't get what the deal with Pierre is. He was very solid all last year with the leather. I watch most games and the only ball I remember him REALLY botching was a fly ball right down the line against the Twins all season. We always heard how poor of a defender he was, but he never really showed that last season. I hope he figures it out. It almost looked 100% mental today.

sox1970
04-11-2011, 10:59 PM
While that all makes sense, if your team has a closer, you use him. Had Thornton came in and got Oakland 1, 2, 3 no one would have cared that Buehrle was pulled. Every other team does the same thing. Sure Buehrle has been very durable, but why let him go that deep when you shouldn't have to? It was a 1-0 game. Had the score been a greater lead I'd agree to letting Buehrle finish.

1) Buehrle was only at 99 pitches, and dominating.

2) Thornton has been shaky in his first two save opportunities.

3) 1-0 game.

These three factors make it a no-brainer to keep your starter in to win or lose. Just a hunch, but if Buehrle starts the 9th, he mows them down quick, and we're congratulating him on career win #150.

AZChiSoxFan
04-11-2011, 11:02 PM
Crap like this is why this organization finishes in second place so frequently.

Ten games in, and they already have two losses (at home, no less) when leading after eight.

This is spot on. This team simply doesn't have players who do all the little things right and that friends, is why we virtually always finish behind the Twins. Sure we have sexy hitters and sometimes we have great starters, so on certain nights, this team is quite fun to watch. But over the long haul, it's too many dropped fly balls, too many stupid things that cost this team.

Dick Allen
04-11-2011, 11:04 PM
Eleven days into the season, and the Sox have already brutally pissed away 3 games. I need to step away from this **** for a while, or I'm going to give myself a ******* stroke. And MB better have told Ozzie he couldn't go another inning for him to have been pulled, because if not, then Ozzie needs to be pulled.

AZChiSoxFan
04-11-2011, 11:08 PM
While that all makes sense, if your team has a closer, you use him. Had Thornton came in and got Oakland 1, 2, 3 no one would have cared that Buehrle was pulled. Every other team does the same thing. Sure Buehrle has been very durable, but why let him go that deep when you shouldn't have to? It was a 1-0 game. Had the score been a greater lead I'd agree to letting Buehrle finish.

I couldn't disagree more. But I have to say, it's (sadly) the way the game is played these days. You use your closer simply because he's your closer. It doesn't matter that he sucks and that your starter was totally dominant and has only thrown 99 pitches. Take him out simply because that's what the game has become these days.

At that point in the game (and I'm refering to before the first batter came up in the 9th), the A's had to have been thrilled to see anyone else on the mound. Heck, they would have preferred Mariano Rivera out there compared to Buehrle. I heard a TV analyst say once that in making moves, you might be wise to stop and think about how the other teams would view the move you are about to make. If they would love it, then it's probably not the right move. I thought about that as soon as I saw Thornton on the bump tonight.

TheOldRoman
04-11-2011, 11:08 PM
1) Buehrle was only at 99 pitches, and dominating.

2) Thornton has been shaky in his first two save opportunities.

3) 1-0 game.

These three factors make it a no-brainer to keep your starter in to win or lose. Just a hunch, but if Buehrle starts the 9th, he mows them down quick, and we're congratulating him on career win #150.Which is the point at which you call it a game most of the time. In general, 100 pitches is the point when pitchers hit the wall. You don't send someone back out to start an inning in April unless he is throwing a no hitter. Not only does Buehrle have a history of wearing down late in the season, but he isn't exactly in midseason form on April 11. Even if he goes 1-2-3 in the ninth, there is a good chance he throws 110-115 pitches in the game. Ozzie made the right call.

Dibbs
04-11-2011, 11:13 PM
I can't figure out why Ozzie wouldn't let Buehrle start the 9th while he was in the midst of one of the greatest games of his career and under 100 pitches. Then again, I don't understand many things that Ozzie does. That's just poor management.

Thornton has never really been able to close. I can't argue that he didn't deserve a shot at it, but I saw this coming. Sale would be my choice. I would be fine with Santos as well.

Also, Pierre has to catch that ball. That should have been easy bare handed, let alone with a glove.

I'm just glad the Bulls are great. Nothing is more frustrating than bad Sox baseball.

sox1970
04-11-2011, 11:13 PM
Which is the point at which you call it a game most of the time. In general, 100 pitches is the point when pitchers hit the wall. You don't send someone back out to start an inning in April unless he is throwing a no hitter. Not only does Buehrle have a history of wearing down late in the season, but he isn't exactly in midseason form on April 11. Even if he goes 1-2-3 in the ninth, there is a good chance he throws 110-115 pitches in the game. Ozzie made the right call.

It was not a stressful 99 pitches...that's the difference. In this game, that was not the move to make. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. If they want to protect Buehrle, they can pull him early in a game he doesn't have it. Humber seems to be a good candidate to do that once Peavy comes back.

JB98
04-11-2011, 11:13 PM
This is spot on. This team simply doesn't have players who do all the little things right and that friends, is why we virtually always finish behind the Twins. Sure we have sexy hitters and sometimes we have great starters, so on certain nights, this team is quite fun to watch. But over the long haul, it's too many dropped fly balls, too many stupid things that cost this team.

Yeah, this roster is awesome on paper. They just piss away too many games for me to have confidence in them.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Which is the point at which you call it a game most of the time. In general, 100 pitches is the point when pitchers hit the wall. You don't send someone back out to start an inning in April unless he is throwing a no hitter. Not only does Buehrle have a history of wearing down late in the season, but he isn't exactly in midseason form on April 11. Even if he goes 1-2-3 in the ninth, there is a good chance he throws 110-115 pitches in the game. Ozzie made the right call.
Couldn't you at least give Buehrle the benefit of the doubt and see how he does facing at least one hitter in the ninth?

Jpgr91
04-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Ozzie was atrocious. If you can't send a pitcher who's working on a dominating 2-hitter to start the ninth, then what does it take? A no-hitter? My goodness, Buehrle had allowed only three balls hit out of the infield up to that point. Only an idiot would take out Buehrle at that point. We have a good team, but it may not be good enough to overcome our manager.


If there was a situation where Thornton could easily be successful it was tonight. I think Ozzie was taking a big picture approach and using tonight as an opportunity to rebuild Thornton's confidence. Seeing that tonight did not turn out well I would not be surprised to see Ozzie go in another direction the next time they need to close out a game.

TDog
04-11-2011, 11:16 PM
...
T-Dog, I don't miss that fat, sack of **** regardless of how many games the Sox urinate away. I don't miss his going on the DL more and more, his inability to keep himself in shape (which factors into WHY he's seeing more and more time on the DL) and his complaining about how unfair things are.

Please. ...
Lip

Thornton isn't overweight, but he went down last season because he was overused. And this year he has been every bit as bad as Jenks was at his worst last year. In Boston, if Jenks is smiling, he is smiling about the White Sox inability to close out games.

You would think Thornton would be inspired to wipe that smile off his face and remind him he plays for one of baseball's losingest teams.

My problem with letting Jenks go is that the bullpen simply isn't as deep without him. Sale and Santos have so little professional experience. Ohman had a pretty good year last year. He wasn't scored upon until the end of May with the Orioles and only gave up a few inherited run before that. But he isn't going to anchor a bullpen.

thomas35forever
04-11-2011, 11:17 PM
Pierre's taking full responsibility.
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4239/pierre-takes-blame-has-teammates-support

Dick Allen
04-11-2011, 11:18 PM
If Thornton needs to "have his confidence built up", let him do it in Charlotte. These games are too damn important.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2011, 11:21 PM
Few more observations:

T-Dog, I guess you think it was "coincidence" the Sox bullpen started imploding last August and dropping like flies to the DL down the stretch? It wasn't...it was because Jenks missed so much time guys were overworked (as you noted) and used in roles they weren't used to deaing with. And you want to go through that again??

Az and JB are spot on, but the overall questions still remain, WHY can't:

1. this organization get "well rounded" players.

2. why can't this coaching staff 'teach' players to be more well rounded. (I ask the question for seemingly the 100th time, are the guys the Sox get 'baseball-stupid' or is this staff not able to teach them anything?) And I like Ozzie and am glad he's the manager.

Agree with JB totally, games like this loom large in August when you assume this division will be a nut cruncher between two or three clubs.

With Oakland pitching like they have been, runs are at a premium you can't give them anything so naturally the Sox did. Pierror catches that ball, which was a long run but right in his glove, there's two out, man on second and it's still 1-0. You're odds of winning just increased.

Little things win games.

Oh T-Dog, I don't understand the comment about "losingest" team? Are you talking about Boston who hasn't had a losing season since the mid-90's? (Maybe it was a typo??)

Still have a chance to take the series but it's just gotten a damn sight harder.

Lip

soltrain21
04-11-2011, 11:22 PM
It would really, really suck if Pierre goes Knoblach on us and starts alligator arming flyballs.

southsideirish71
04-11-2011, 11:23 PM
Pierre's taking full responsibility.
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4239/pierre-takes-blame-has-teammates-support


It's 2 drops and a near third as he nearly trampled Alexei. Just catch the ball.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 11:24 PM
Pierre's taking full responsibility.
http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/4239/pierre-takes-blame-has-teammates-support

Good. He's still a lousy outfielder.

TheOldRoman
04-11-2011, 11:38 PM
Couldn't you at least give Buehrle the benefit of the doubt and see how he does facing at least one hitter in the ninth?No, because if he gives up a hit you are in a considerably worse situation than you would have been otherwise. Closers (and really all relievers) do better starting an inning. If Buehrle gives up one hit then you HAVE to pull him and put Fatty Matty in. I think having your closer start the inning gives you the best chance of winning, provided the closer does his job.

Hendu
04-11-2011, 11:40 PM
If Thornton needs to "have his confidence built up", let him do it in Charlotte. These games are too damn important.

This isn't some nobody being brought in, but Matt Thornton. The same guy who has been lights out in the past, and who earned a nice new contract this offseason. We are going to need him (or somebody else) from the bullpen to step up in big situations all year. It's frustrating but seriously if Ozzie doesn't figure out who he can trust to nail down a 1-run lead asap, we're in for a gut-wrenching summer.

guillensdisciple
04-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Hilarious. We fix all the batting woes we had last year, and forget how to field thus finding ways to negate our improvement.

Never a cohesion with this club.

doublem23
04-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Obviously something is wrong with Matt Thornton. That double to LaRoche was basically a BP pitch he laid right in his wheelhouse. And the only reason Pierre gets to play goat tonight is because the screaming line drive Crisp hit that should have tied the game miraculously made a B-line for Paul Konerko's mitt.

Buehrle should have been allowed to start the 9th. The A's 9-1-2 hitters are all awful, he had been mowing people down, and don't give me this 99 pitch limit bull****, Edwin went 120 in his last start against TB. The Sox have already talked about giving Humber spot starts even after Peavy comes back to help keep the gas in the tank for the guys. Another curious managerial decision by the Ozzmaster.

Soxfest
04-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Trend is getting a bit much!

GoGoCrede
04-11-2011, 11:43 PM
If Thornton needs to "have his confidence built up", let him do it in Charlotte. These games are too damn important.

Not gonna happen.

BainesHOF
04-11-2011, 11:45 PM
The big-picture approach should be to win the game. It's not to baby a pitcher who has thrown less than 100 pitches. It's not to seriously decrease our chances of winning in order to build one player's confidence.

Ozzie has a lot of bluster, but it's a facade. He really doesn't have an expert-like understanding of the game. He's a subpar game manager and he's even a poor teacher.

doublem23
04-11-2011, 11:48 PM
T-Dog, I don't miss that fat, sack of **** regardless of how many games the Sox urinate away. I don't miss his going on the DL more and more, his inability to keep himself in shape (which factors into WHY he's seeing more and more time on the DL) and his complaining about how unfair things are.

Please.

I miss his ability to get saves. That would sure be nice right about now.

mcsoxfan
04-11-2011, 11:49 PM
I think it's ridiculous that people are honestly trying to pin this one on Ozzie.

Pierre, or Thornton. Okay.

But Ozzie? GMAB

It's Mark's third start of the year. He was a pitch away from 100. It's still only 1-0. Also, you have to take into account Buehrle's tendency to get tired by the end of the season as a result of all the innings building up on him.

I think it's perfectly understandable to want to pull him in that situation this early in the season.

No stat is more overrated in baseball today than pitch counts.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:01 AM
No stat is more overrated in baseball today than pitch counts.

Yeah, what a crock of ****, we're not advocating for Buehrle to go on 3-days rest to skip Humber's next start, we're talking about throwing 1 more inning, at worst he tosses 115-120 and that would have been the absolute worst inning he'd have had all night.

And even if you want to go to the 'pen, how bout not bringing in the guy struggling like crazy into a 1-0 game? How bout you find him some garbage time to regain his touch?

Just stupid all around. We deserve to have this loss pinned on us.

Hendu
04-12-2011, 12:04 AM
I don't even think the pitch count was much of a factor. Look, you have a closer who is struggling but is well-paid and has a track record of success. The bottom of the line-up is coming up. On paper, this is a great situation to get a very important piece of your bullpen back on track. I would have loved to see Buehrle pitch the CG, but even more than that I would have loved to see Thornton come in and dominate the 9th and nail it down for Mark to make everyone feel a little more confident in that bullpen. Unfortunately it didn't work out but I see where Ozzie was coming from.

russ99
04-12-2011, 12:17 AM
What a bunch of idiocy in this thread... Let's see, were supposed to win 162 games, Ozzie needs to be clairvoyant, the coaching staff has to stop everything and teach the most veteran club we've had in years and we can't ever make an error.

One baseball game here folks. Do we forget how good this team looked the last 2 days?? The first 8 innings??

Excuse me if the CLOSER is not supposed to close the damn game. The Sox made a big investment in Thornton in the offseason, and if he can't hack it that's on him. April is when you find out these things.

And for this who are so convinced the bullpen is set up wrong, please enlighten us... Thornton has been a solid player for us for years and earned his shot. Who to say that Santos or Sale can handle the role in their second seasons?

You guys sound like a bunch of bipolar axe-grinders looking for any excuse to let loose.

Falstaff
04-12-2011, 12:17 AM
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
We need to bring in a defensive outfield specialist from the minors.
Maybe Brian Anderson needs a job? Rowand?

JB98
04-12-2011, 12:23 AM
Obviously something is wrong with Matt Thornton. That double to LaRoche was basically a BP pitch he laid right in his wheelhouse. And the only reason Pierre gets to play goat tonight is because the screaming line drive Crisp hit that should have tied the game miraculously made a B-line for Paul Konerko's mitt.

Buehrle should have been allowed to start the 9th. The A's 9-1-2 hitters are all awful, he had been mowing people down, and don't give me this 99 pitch limit bull****, Edwin went 120 in his last start against TB. The Sox have already talked about giving Humber spot starts even after Peavy comes back to help keep the gas in the tank for the guys. Another curious managerial decision by the Ozzmaster.

The important thing to note is that it was an EASY 99 pitches for Buehrle.

Jack McDowell always said sometimes you can be gassed after 80 pitches if you've made a lot of those pitches under pressure with RISP and such. Jack also said you can be not tired at all after 120 pitches if you've just been sailing along and not dealing with too many jams.

Tonight, it was probably the latter scenario for Buehrle. He wasn't in any trouble at all for eight innings. It was like he was playing a game of catch. I doubt he was tired. He could have finished this. Instead, a beautifully pitched game goes to waste. It's so frustrating. A couple hours later, I'm still just furious.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:25 AM
What a bunch of idiocy in this thread... Let's see, were supposed to win 162 games, Ozzie needs to be clairvoyant, the coaching staff has to stop everything and teach the most veteran club we've had in years and we can't ever make an error.

One baseball game here folks. Do we forget how good this team looked the last 2 days?? The first 8 innings??

Excuse me if the CLOSER is not supposed to close the damn game. The Sox made a big investment in Thornton in the offseason, and if he can't hack it that's on him. April is when you find out these things.

And for this who are so convinced the bullpen is set up wrong, please enlighten us... Thornton has been a solid player for us for years and earned his shot. Who to say that Santos or Sale can handle the role in their second seasons?

You guys sound like a bunch of bipolar axe-grinders looking for any excuse to let loose.

We've played 10 games this season and we've pissed 3 of them away already. Please find the post where someone says the Sox should be 162-0. ****ING FIND IT. If you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot 30% of your games, you may as well drop down a non-refundable trip to Bermuda October 1, because you sure as **** ain't going to be playing baseball.

Chipol
04-12-2011, 12:25 AM
Why doesn't Vizquel hit for Morel in the ninth?

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:28 AM
The important thing to note is that it was an EASY 99 pitches for Buehrle.

Jack McDowell always said sometimes you can be gassed after 80 pitches if you've made a lot of those pitches under pressure with RISP and such. Jack also said you can be not tired at all after 120 pitches if you've just been sailing along and not dealing with too many jams.

Tonight, it was probably the latter scenario for Buehrle. He wasn't in any trouble at all for eight innings. It was like he was playing a game of catch. I doubt he was tired. He could have finished this. Instead, a beautifully pitched game goes to waste. It's so frustrating. A couple hours later, I'm still just furious.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly. The A's weren't touching Buehrle all night. He was never in any high-stress situations. He could have thrown 150 pitches like that and been fine.

I GET that Ozzie wants to give Thornton work and help him find his old self. But give the guy innings in garbage time, give him a 3-run lead, don't ask him to go out there and protect a 1-run lead for a guy who just pitched his heart out. You and I are furious, how do you think Matt feels right now? Dude's not going to sleep all week.

On the flip side, if there's one thing the Sox have been so far in 2011, it's resilient. See how they react to another gut punch tomorrow. They're going to need to have ice in their veins all year because they seem to be masters of beating themselves.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:28 AM
Why doesn't Vizquel hit for Morel in the ninth?

Because Vizquel sucks

God, this team's depth is going to be a problem. Bottom of the 9th and the best guy off your bench is Omar Vizquel? ****.

Starting 9 are as good as anyone's in baseball, and the SP looks good too, early on. Bench and bullpen? Big problems. Big problems.

Nellie_Fox
04-12-2011, 12:30 AM
Maybe Brian Anderson needs a job? Rowand?
Teal
Not teal.

JB98
04-12-2011, 12:34 AM
I agree with this post whole-heartedly. The A's weren't touching Buehrle all night. He was never in any high-stress situations. He could have thrown 150 pitches like that and been fine.

I GET that Ozzie wants to give Thornton work and help him find his old self. But give the guy innings in garbage time, give him a 3-run lead, don't ask him to go out there and protect a 1-run lead for a guy who just pitched his heart out. You and I are furious, how do you think Matt feels right now? Dude's not going to sleep all week.

On the flip side, if there's one thing the Sox have been so far in 2011, it's resilient. See how they react to another gut punch tomorrow. They're going to need to have ice in their veins all year because they seem to be masters of beating themselves.

I hope his next appearance comes with the Sox either comfortably ahead or trailing. He needs a mental break. We all know he's better than this. But for now, he's hurting the team and can't be trusted with one-run leads. Simple as that.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:39 AM
I hope his next appearance comes with the Sox either comfortably ahead or trailing. He needs a mental break. We all know he's better than this. But for now, he's hurting the team and can't be trusted with one-run leads. Simple as that.

Yeah something is not right with him right now. The BS against KC, OK, a guy took a good pitch and poked it into RF. Whatever, **** happens. The BS against Tampa? OK, the Sox gave the Rays 2 extra outs and only 1 ball that inning was hit particularly hard. **** happens.

Tonight the A's were all over him. THE ****ING A'S. LaRoche nailed his pitch, Crisp lined a missile down the line, Barton's ball that Pierre dropped missed being a 400-foot HR by centimeters on the bat. He wasn't fooling anyone. Those were all well-hit balls.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 12:41 AM
Every time I bring up riding your horses, I am told I am living in the past. The Sox currently have 4 non injury prone starters. All four are good durable pitchers. Letting them complete games while they are on cruise control should not be an issue at this stage of the season. You work out kinks either on the sidelines or in games that are not close. A win in April counts as much as a win in September.

JB98
04-12-2011, 12:48 AM
Yeah something is not right with him right now. The BS against KC, OK, a guy took a good pitch and poked it into RF. Whatever, **** happens. The BS against Tampa? OK, the Sox gave the Rays 2 extra outs and only 1 ball that inning was hit particularly hard. **** happens.

Tonight the A's were all over him. THE ****ING A'S. LaRoche nailed his pitch, Crisp lined a missile down the line, Barton's ball that Pierre dropped missed being a 400-foot HR by centimeters on the bat. He wasn't fooling anyone. Those were all well-hit balls.

Off the bat, I was worried Barton's ball would land in the bullpen. I was actually yelling, "Stay in the yard, stay in the yard!" at the TV. It was struck well.

Foulke You
04-12-2011, 12:52 AM
Off the bat, I was worried Barton's ball would land in the bullpen. I was actually yelling, "Stay in the yard, stay in the yard!" at the TV. It was struck well.
I was at the game and it didn't have that good "sound" off the bat when Barton hit it. The ball just seemed to get caught up in that wind and started carrying. I had a bird's eye view of Pierre's mishap. He had a bead on it but it seemed he just took his eye off it at the last minute.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-12-2011, 12:56 AM
Boy, did I pick the right game to randomly go to.

Bats were quiet, but we didn't need them with the gem Buehrle twirled. There is absolutely NO explanation as to why Buehrle shouldn't have been allowed to at least TRY to get the CGSO. However, Tweedledee and Tweedledum, for the second time in four games, blow a game the Sox should have won going away.

I was sitting front row in Sec. 537, and even I could tell that Buehrle had some great stuff on the mound today, because the A's hitters were getting under everything and popping it up. Buehrle had maybe one hard-hit ball off of him all game, and that was a great play by Alexei to make that jumping catch. Otherwise, Buehrle looked stellar, and up to that point, the defense made some fine plays. However, I sure hope to God that the Konerko CS was a failed hit-and-run.

Thornton isn't fooling anyone. He's getting hit, and getting hit hard. Every ball was torched, including the line drive that Konerko snagged. And don't get me started on the almost-collision by Pierre to end the 9th...he might not have gotten out of USCF alive had he caused Rios (or was it Alexei?) to drop that ball. Thornton may not be helped by shoddy defense, but the fact of the matter is, he's not striking anyone out, and he's getting smoked on the mound. Thornton is NOT a closer...you can't be a closer with only one plus pitch, and that pitch being the heater. Santos needs a chance, and soon, before we blow another easily-winnable game. Whatever was left of Thornton's confidence has to be shot now.

Crain did a good job, except for the one mistake to Suzuki...but our offense looked overmatched in the late innings. They kept taking strikes and falling behind in counts, and that led them to swing at anything close.

So help me, if we end up losing the division by 2 games or less, I will be beside myself with rage, and I will point to these two games as to why.

God, this game sucked!

Foulke You
04-12-2011, 12:58 AM
Good. He's still a lousy outfielder.
For two innings this year, yes he has been bad. The entire body of work though shows that he is an above average outfielder with a weak throwing arm. If you'll recall, he made a couple of great catches in the game against Tampa where he had his first mishap. He also played a rock solid LF for us last season. Can anyone think of a single game that Pierre's defense in 2010 cost us a game? I can't. I understand everyone is upset at Pierre right now and I am too because those two balls definitely should be caught. However, if you take a step back from it, he had two really flukey bad plays. I don't see a need for a defensive replacement for him unless this turns into a mental Chuck Knoblauch type situation which I've never seen happen with an outfielder.

JB98
04-12-2011, 01:03 AM
I was at the game and it didn't have that good "sound" off the bat when Barton hit it. The ball just seemed to get caught up in that wind and started carrying. I had a bird's eye view of Pierre's mishap. He had a bead on it but it seemed he just took his eye off it at the last minute.

Yeah, but we all know there are some cheap HRs down the line in left at USCF. On a warm summer night, that ball might have carried into the bullpen. Who knows? Regardless, the damn thing should have been caught. On that, I'm sure we'll agree.

Foulke You
04-12-2011, 01:14 AM
Yeah, but we all know there are some cheap HRs down the line in left at USCF. On a warm summer night, that ball might have carried into the bullpen. Who knows? Regardless, the damn thing should have been caught. On that, I'm sure we'll agree.
Agree on both counts. On a warm summer evening, that one is gone. The 330 pole in LF is the part of our ballpark that yields the most cheapie HRs. The Suzuki HR in the 10th on the other hand was crushed. I believe he hit a walkoff against us last year in Oakland if memory serves.

hawkjt
04-12-2011, 01:54 AM
Agree on both counts. On a warm summer evening, that one is gone. The 330 pole in LF is the part of our ballpark that yields the most cheapie HRs. The Suzuki HR in the 10th on the other hand was crushed. I believe he hit a walkoff against us last year in Oakland if memory serves.

It was crushed but only got over the fence by a few inches it looked like to me. The wind was really tricky tonite,swirling like crazy...at one point we watched wrappers blowing in opposite directions ,one toward right field and one toward left field. Cold nite at the park and it was made so much worse by that 9th inning.

Juan was about the best leftfielder in the league last year by all the defensive metrics...1st in range,WAR,ect....so I will lay off him for now. He feels bad enough already. Matt is getting hammered,and needs to re-find his location. I have been a Sale as closer guy all winter,and remain in that camp. I was hoping he was coming out,but alas,it was Matt.

Go get'em tomorrow....and did like the Bacardi place...first game of the year and enjoyed hanging there pre-game.

Boondock Saint
04-12-2011, 02:53 AM
I know that our bullpen sucks, but I'd like to see what the posters here would be saying if MB gives up a solo shot to start the ninth. "Oh, well, he deserved to start the ninth." Sure.

The man had allowed all of three baserunners all game, and none of those three even reached second base. If he gives up a HR in the ninth, I say "**** happens", and go from there. Hell, if Ozzie goes with Crain, Santos or Sale in the ninth, I'm okay with it. But you can't ask me to buy that Matt Thornton, his straight 93-95 mph fastball and his rapidly growing resume of ninth inning bedwetting is the right decision in a one run game.

Yeah something is not right with him right now. The BS against KC, OK, a guy took a good pitch and poked it into RF. Whatever, **** happens. The BS against Tampa? OK, the Sox gave the Rays 2 extra outs and only 1 ball that inning was hit particularly hard. **** happens.

Tonight the A's were all over him. THE ****ING A'S. LaRoche nailed his pitch, Crisp lined a missile down the line, Barton's ball that Pierre dropped missed being a 400-foot HR by centimeters on the bat. He wasn't fooling anyone. Those were all well-hit balls.

His fastball isn't the 97-99 mph we're used to seeing from him, and his slider is all but a rumor at this point. He's losing any and all effectiveness out there.

SI1020
04-12-2011, 07:24 AM
Good. He's still a lousy outfielder. He's a pretty good outfielder with a weak arm. Last year was his best ever.

Red Barchetta
04-12-2011, 07:51 AM
This.

99 pitches.....99 PITCHES!! The way MB was dealing you have to let him finish. Unless Buehrle comes and says, I can't go, he should have been out there. You can't just hang this one on Thornton and Pierre. Ozzie has had a horrible start to the season IMO. They should be at least 8-2 and yet we are at 6-4.


I agree. I have never understood the mentality to pull a starter who has completely baffled the opposing offense.

Look at it from the A's perspective. They haven't been able to touch Buehrle all night and during their last inning/chance to win the game, the SOX bring in a new pitcher. They can't help but be pumped up at least mentally to face someone new. :angry:

It's one thing if the leadoff batter gets a hit off the SP, however at least let him have a chance at closing it out.

aryzner
04-12-2011, 07:55 AM
If Buehrle had allowed 4 or 5+ hits and a few walks up to that point, I would have agreed with the call. But Mark had given up 2 hits and 1 walk. It was clear the A's weren't touching him at all. Come on.

ChiSoxGirl
04-12-2011, 07:59 AM
Ozzie deserves an F for yanking Buehrle to start the ninth. He should have had a reliever ready to go, but sent out Buehrle to start the ninth. If he had walked a batter or given up a hard-hit ball, THEN Ozzie should have gone to the pen. But Buehrle deserved the opportunity to get the complete game 1-0 win.

There is no possible way I could agree with this post more.

What a waste of a great outing by Mark Buerhle. Sox bats were too quiet to recover from yet another blown save by Matt.

Matt's not cutting it. Move him back to setup. Sergio or Sale should get a shot. 3rd blown save early in the year is NOT good.

And Jesus, Juan...misplay that in your home ballpark?

:gah:

Without a doubt. I don't care if it's Sale or Santos who gets the next look, but my guess is either one of them will have more success than Thornton. Matt is an eighth inning set-up guy, plain and simple. A guy who primarily throws fastballs isn't going to cut it as a closer. Anybody remember Billy Koch?! He had two pitches: fast and faster. Not many of us liked him as a closer, did we?

What worries me is that it's going to take Ozzie until June to man up and realize he made a mistake in naming Thornton his closer. We saw it with Jenks last year. Time after time, Ozzie would keep trotting him out there in the ninth inning, despite the fact that Jenks was showing signs of not having it anymore. This team can't afford to have Thornton being trotted out there as the closer for the next two months. Ozzie will tell the media he's "trying to build Thornton's confidence." You want to build his confidence, Oz? Put the guy back into the role he flourishes in. Plain and simple.

We're ten games in and already have three blown saves. Too many more ballgames like the ones Friday night and last night and we'll be looking back on them come August and September wondering what could and should have been.

This.

99 pitches.....99 PITCHES!! The way MB was dealing you have to let him finish. Unless Buehrle comes and says, I can't go, he should have been out there. You can't just hang this one on Thornton and Pierre. Ozzie has had a horrible start to the season IMO. They should be at least 8-2 and yet we are at 6-4.

Absolutely. Ozzie had no problem with leaving Edwin Jackson out there for eight innings on Opening Day, and his pitch count was 20 higher than Buehrle's!

I think that's what makes all of this so damn frustrating. Knowing full well we should be 8-2 or even 9-1 is enough to make me want to vomit. I was seething when I went to bed last night. I want so badly to believe we're the best team in the American League, let alone the Central, but if the Sox keep giving games away in the late innings, I'm going to lean more towards the idea that we're not all we can or are supposed to be this year.

ChiSoxGirl
04-12-2011, 08:06 AM
This is spot on. This team simply doesn't have players who do all the little things right and that friends, is why we virtually always finish behind the Twins. Sure we have sexy hitters and sometimes we have great starters, so on certain nights, this team is quite fun to watch. But over the long haul, it's too many dropped fly balls, too many stupid things that cost this team.

**** like last night and what happened on Friday NEVER, EVER, EVER happens to the Twins. Ever. They never beat themselves, whereas the Sox seem to excel at such a thing.

Sox35th
04-12-2011, 08:14 AM
What a Joke!!

Told the wife "watch...they're going to blow it in the 9th." and they did!!

Just had that feeling....Unreal

MB should have started the 9th!!!!!!!!

:angry:

Harry Potter
04-12-2011, 08:21 AM
Did someone look into when the Sox acquired Alfonso Soriano to play LF during the off season? :angry:

CHISOXFAN13
04-12-2011, 08:27 AM
**** like last night and what happened on Friday NEVER, EVER, EVER happens to the Twins. Ever. They never beat themselves, whereas the Sox seem to excel at such a thing.

Just the other night Kurt Suzuki scored the lone run of the game on an error by Alexi Casilla, moments after he got to second on a wild pitch.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 08:33 AM
Just the other night Kurt Suzuki scored the lone run of the game on an error by Alexi Casilla, moments after he got to second on a wild pitch.

:thumbsup:

This has nothing to do with the ****ing Twins, this is about getting our **** in order.

TheOldRoman
04-12-2011, 08:49 AM
The important thing to note is that it was an EASY 99 pitches for Buehrle.

Jack McDowell always said sometimes you can be gassed after 80 pitches if you've made a lot of those pitches under pressure with RISP and such. Jack also said you can be not tired at all after 120 pitches if you've just been sailing along and not dealing with too many jams.

Tonight, it was probably the latter scenario for Buehrle. He wasn't in any trouble at all for eight innings. It was like he was playing a game of catch. I doubt he was tired. He could have finished this. Instead, a beautifully pitched game goes to waste. It's so frustrating. A couple hours later, I'm still just furious.Right, but we don't know how Buehrle was feeling or anything. Maybe it was a night when he was tired at 99. Yes, Ozzie sent Edwin back out for the 8th on Saturday (and at the time I didn't want him to). And what happened to Edwin in the 8th? He was gassed and hitters started catching up to him. After being great all game and allowing something like two baserunners, he gave up two hits that inning and lost his shutout. If Buehrle does the same thing in the ninth yesterday, the Sox lose. A respectable closer finishes that game the huge majority of the time. Maybe the 1-2 hitters have a good feeling for Buehrle seeing him for the fourth time, I don't know. I agree with going with the fresh man in this scenario, but Thornton was terrible.

amsteel
04-12-2011, 08:50 AM
It makes me feel a little bit better when I realize that if you win 6 of 10 throughout the course of the year, you'll end up winning 97/98 games. I don't think this team, even with current defense and bullpen issues will have any problem meeting that.

TomParrish79
04-12-2011, 08:52 AM
Just seems like everyone of our losses this year have been because of us giving the game away.

Buehrle pitched great though.

TheOldRoman
04-12-2011, 08:55 AM
It makes me feel a little bit better when I realize that if you win 6 of 10 throughout the course of the year, you'll end up winning 97/98 games. I don't think this team, even with current defense and bullpen issues will have any problem meeting that.Yeah, but you have to pile up wins when you are hot. With two really bad no-shows (last night and the finale against Cleveland) the offense has been really good so far. The starters have been alright thus far, with three straight excellent performances. There are going to be times when our starters get bombed one time through the rotation and our offense will have at least one month long slump based on history. You can't give away games you should be easily winning when you are hot.

SOXSINCE'70
04-12-2011, 08:58 AM
:thumbsup:

This has nothing to do with the ****ing Twins, this is about getting our **** in order.

Tonight would be a good time to start that process.

Jpgr91
04-12-2011, 09:09 AM
**** like last night and what happened on Friday NEVER, EVER, EVER happens to the Twins. Ever. They never beat themselves, whereas the Sox seem to excel at such a thing.

They have thrown away a few games this year by making bonehead fundamental mistakes.

Jpgr91
04-12-2011, 09:15 AM
The big-picture approach should be to win the game. It's not to baby a pitcher who has thrown less than 100 pitches. It's not to seriously decrease our chances of winning in order to build one player's confidence.

Ozzie has a lot of bluster, but it's a facade. He really doesn't have an expert-like understanding of the game. He's a subpar game manager and he's even a poor teacher.

The big picture is the Sox winning the World Series. The Sox would be in a better position to achieve the big picture goal if they have a solid bullpen. The Sox have a much better bullpen when Thornton is an effective pitcher.

I don't agree with your assessment that Ozzie is a subpar manager. It is not the job of a MLB manager to teach.

flo-B-flo
04-12-2011, 09:19 AM
You do not take out a pitcher who is pitching a DOMINANT game - a ****IN SHUTOUT - and has only thrown 99 pitches. You JUST DON"T. What the **** has happened to baseball? And Juan: catch the mother****in' ball. Why carry a glove out there if you can't use it?:angry::angry::angry::angry: Okay I'm alright now. Come back strong tonight. :gulp:

rcescato
04-12-2011, 09:26 AM
Guillen should have let Mark finish his gem!! Thorton is no closer and we need a defensive replace in the 9th inning.

tstrike2000
04-12-2011, 10:03 AM
Will Ohman for closer!

ChiSoxGirl
04-12-2011, 10:08 AM
:thumbsup:

This has nothing to do with the ****ing Twins, this is about getting our **** in order.

They have thrown away a few games this year by making bonehead fundamental mistakes.

Well, pardon me for using this message board to share my thoughts. Sometimes I wonder why the hell I even post at all anymore; most of what I say is criticized. I should just stick to my losing game reports and be done with it.

I was thinking in terms of how the Twins play against the Sox -- they're practically flawless.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 10:20 AM
Well, pardon me for using this message board to share my thoughts. Sometimes I wonder why the hell I even post at all anymore; most of what I say is criticized. I should just stick to my losing game reports and be done with it.

I was thinking in terms of how the Twins play against the Sox -- they're practically flawless.

God, it's a message board, people post their opinions and others post their response. You talked about how the Twins are a baseball machine that doesn't make any mistakes, we pointed out the fact that the Twins are in the cellar of the division right now because they're making fundamental mistakes all over the diamond.

It's too early to be scoreboard watching, anyways. We've played 10 games, but we've beaten ourselves in 3 of them. Keep up that ratio and it doesn't matter how well or poorly Minnesota plays this season, we're not going anywhere, anyway.

veeter
04-12-2011, 10:42 AM
Bummer.

I feel like the Sox could easily be 9-1 or 8-2 right now.By my count they've given away three games and stolen one. For Christ sake Ozzie Buehrle hadn't even broken a sweat. Leave him in!! And how can any little league coach EVER yell at another kid for missing/ dropping a fly ball, when these major leaguers still do it.

Chez
04-12-2011, 10:51 AM
I know hindsight is 20/20, but if the Sox hadn't acquired Manny last season (and had to pay his salary for a month), would they have had the money in this year's budget to pay Andruw Jones to be our late inning defensive replacement in the outfield? Lillibridge and Teahen are below average in the field. It would be nice to have a 4th outfielder who could actually help us in the field in the 8th or 9th inning.

guillensdisciple
04-12-2011, 10:52 AM
1/16th through the season and the only thing I have learned is that the White Sox need a closer.

I think we'll be fine. Usually our bullpen stagnates towards the end of the year. Hopefully, this is a reverse trend.

daveeym
04-12-2011, 10:54 AM
The big picture is the Sox winning the World Series. The Sox would be in a better position to achieve the big picture goal if they have a solid bullpen. The Sox have a much better bullpen when Thornton is an effective pitcher.

I don't agree with your assessment that Ozzie is a subpar manager. It is not the job of a MLB manager to teach.
While it may not be his job to teach, it's his job to identify those that need it and to get it done. We've got a nice mix on this team of young and old. Real coaching never stops though.

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:00 AM
This and that after 12 hours or so from the debacle.

Someone earlier in the thread posted about being mad no reporter asked Ozzie directly about why Buehrle didn't start the 9th inning. Actually Scott Merkin did ask Ozzie that.

"We have to take care of Buehrle. He did his job. Our bullpen (is) getting paid pretty (well). I have confidence in the bullpen."

Now you can debate Ozzie on his reasoning but that's another matter. The question was asked.

Agree with everybody who talked, vented about the Sox urinating away games and how if the race stays close which the "experts" think it will, these could be huge come September.

Finally, I finally got an answer to my question about fundamentals, why the Sox seem to have problems with them and if they are the result of the Sox players being "baseball-stupid" or if Ozzie and the coaching staff simply can't teach them.

The answer was pretty candid and to an extent surprised me.

Without going into specific details I'll say that a member of the Sox broadcasting team said the players are "stupid" when it comes to fundamentals, which seems to take Ozzie and his staff off the hook (at least somewhat...)

I also heard from another media source that's around the team and in the clubhouse on a daily basis, that they think part of the problem with the Sox decision-making process in certain areas is the result of "the manager listening to much to his bench coach..." That would be Joey Cora.

Take it for what it may be worth to you.

Regrading Jenks, just remember all those advocating for him to have been brought back. He blew games in his career, and that number seemed to be going up more and more the past few years (when he wasn't on the DL that is...) The Sox knew he wasn't coming back in any case, they made that decision as far back as last July.

Lip

doublem23
04-12-2011, 11:05 AM
Regrading Jenks, just remember all those advocating for him to have been brought back. He blew games in his career, and that number seemed to be going up more and more the past few years (when he wasn't on the DL that is...) The Sox knew he wasn't coming back in any case, they made that decision as far back as last July.

He also saved a ****load, too, in the most pressure-filled situations one can ask.

asindc
04-12-2011, 11:06 AM
Just the other night Kurt Suzuki scored the lone run of the game on an error by Alexi Casilla, moments after he got to second on a wild pitch.

You beat me to it. The Twinkees piss away games just like every other baseball team.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:07 AM
Without going into specific details I'll say that a member of the Sox broadcasting team said the players are "stupid" when it comes to fundamentals, which seems to take Ozzie and his staff off the hook (at least somewhat...)



Lip,

This problem has been going on for quite a few years already. The fundamental issue has been with players in the system, players from other systems, recently traded for players and Sox long term players. Are Sox players receiving stupid pills at their buffets?

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:10 AM
He did. Just as Thornton has pitched in pressure situations and in the past few seasons guys from Hermanson to Tom Gordon, to Marte, to you name it, did as well.

Bobby had baggage, and I got this specifically from a member of upper management last July in the radio booth watching the Sox play the A's, which apparently outweighed (no pun intended) the benefits that he brought (aka experience) in pressure situations in their minds.

Lip

russ99
04-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Regrading Jenks, just remember all those advocating for him to have been brought back. He blew games in his career, and that number seemed to be going up more and more the past few years (when he wasn't on the DL that is...) The Sox knew he wasn't coming back in any case, they made that decision as far back as last July.

Lip

If that was the case, knowing that Jenks wasn't coming back since July, why didn't Kenny plan to go out and get a closer?

"All In" doesn't mean ignoring a position of need and promoting your setup man, whether he can hack it or not - just to save a few million dollars.

It sucks that yet again we have to wait until July to fix an obvious issue.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:13 AM
If that was the case, knowing that Jenks wasn't coming back since July, why didn't Kenny plan to go out and get a closer?

"All In" doesn't mean ignoring a position of need and promoting your setup man, whether he can hack it or not - just to save a few million dollars.

I would think it was a money issue considering Putz was attainable and seemed to like it here.

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:13 AM
Noneck:

I can only guess that baseball players today overall, in most systems (save for a few exceptions like the Twins) are, 'baseball-stupid.'

And I can see that, the small things simply aren't focused on. The "Oriole-way," or the "Dodger-way," are long gone.

Guys don't get on SportsCenter for executing a perfect double steal, or for advancing the winning run to 3rd base with less than two out, or pulling off a hit and run.

Unfortunately what you and I grew up with just isn't important anymore to most players and maybe even more importantly organizations.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
04-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Unfortunately what you and I grew up with just isn't important anymore to most players and maybe even more importantly organizations.

LipAnd apparently to a real lot of fans.

russ99
04-12-2011, 11:16 AM
I would think it was a money issue considering Putz was attainable and seemed to like it here.

Putz got a million dollar raise this year, but I see Crain as his replacement as a short man.

Putz may be a capable closer for a NL West team, but IMO he'd be questionable. At least less questionable than any of the top closers around the league making $7-9M.

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:19 AM
Two things:

Russ, Kenny thought he had a closer. Matt Thornton or Chris Sale. How the bullpen is manipulated is up to the field manager, not the general manager. Remember Kenny for a long time was telling the media that Sale would be in the bullpen this season, he did that for a reason.

Noneck: Even JJ admitted in a newspaper story (I think it was the Tribune) that he did want to come back to the Sox but knew money was going to be an issue and he really was attracted to the prospect of playing close to his home and closing.

It's the reality of the situation folks. The Sox are not Boston or the Yankees or for many recent years, the Cubs. "Hey we need this," let's buy it! If that was the case the Sox would have Putz and Soriano in the bullpen instead of Ohman and maybe Pena.

God above I wish it were so, but that's the reality of things.

Now you can debate that the resources have been improperly spent (Teahen for example...) but there are limits to what this ownership is willing to do money-wise. I'm grateful they've gone and done what they have considering the way they have operated most of the time.

Lip

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Putz got a million dollar raise this year, but I see Crain as his replacement as a short man.

Putz may be a capable closer for a NL West team, but IMO he'd be questionable. At least less questionable than any of the top closers around the league making $7-9M.

Putz had experience and did well as an AL closer before his injury. Thornton and Crain have been basically career set up men. Getting a premier closer was never in the cards for the Sox and I agree with that. Big risk and not many give you the return.

asindc
04-12-2011, 11:31 AM
Noneck:

I can only guess that baseball players today overall, in most systems (save for a few exceptions like the Twins) are, 'baseball-stupid.'

And I can see that, the small things simply aren't focused on. The "Oriole-way," or the "Dodger-way," are long gone.

Guys don't get on SportsCenter for executing a perfect double steal, or for advancing the winning run to 3rd base with less than two out, or pulling off a hit and run.

Unfortunately what you and I grew up with just isn't important anymore to most players and maybe even more importantly organizations.

Lip

Preach.

And apparently to a real lot of fans.

Nellie, a lot of fans are not old enough to remember championship teams that stressed fundamentals and played what is now referred to as "small ball." Most baseball fans younger than 30 are used to seeing steroid-enhanced teams such as the late 80s/early 90s Oakland teams or the Manny/Papi Boston teams dominate. Just look back at the threads where the idea of a #6 hitter laying down a bunt to put the team in position to score a run without getting a hit is mocked and ridiculed, or the idea of bunting period is regarded with disdain. I'll rejoice the day when ESPN shows a highlight of a sacrifice bunt that led to a winning run being scored. Not holding my breath, though.

SoxSpeed22
04-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Pierre's been playing for 9 years before the Sox got him and misplayed a flyball that was slicing away from him suddenly makes him baseball stupid.
If it was a month later, that ball would've been gone. Also there was that ball hit really hard that went right to Paulie. I don't think Thornton has what it takes, so Ozzie needs into look into other options.

The Immigrant
04-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Putz had experience and did well as an AL closer before his injury.

All I remember is how terrible he was when given the chance to close last August. At least to me, he will remain one of the key reasons we lost the division in 2010.

Good riddance.

GoGoCrede
04-12-2011, 11:38 AM
All I remember is how terrible he was when given the chance to close last August. At least to me, he will remain one of the key reasons we lost the division in 2010.

Good riddance.

I seem to have thankfully blocked this part out.

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:38 AM
One other point regarding "fundamentals" and their demise.

Managers today no longer have the hammer to hold over players if they screw up.

Back in the day, Eddie Stanky or Al Lopez would bench a guy for not executing a bunt, for leaving a runner at 3rd with less than two out or for not hitting the other way. Can you imagine what would happen today if a manager had the guts to do this?

With so many teams, the talent is diluted...there aren't five or six major league ready guys sitting in Triple A ready to pounce on any big league player who screws up or doesn't give a damn.

Here just an example of the way things were. This is former Sox 20 game winner Ray Herbert in his WSI interview:

“We were at home on a Saturday afternoon. It was a national TV game and I think it was 1963. Floyd (Robinson) was up in the first inning and he hit a little pop up. He ran about halfway down the line then slowed up as the infielder caught the ball. Jim (Landis) brought his glove out to him in the outfield and they started warming up between innings.

(Al) Lopez didn’t like the fact that Floyd didn’t run the ball out the entire way so while they are in the outfield, Al turns to one of the guys on the bench and says ‘you go in for Robinson.’ The kid ran out there with his glove. Floyd had his back turned so he never saw the guy and didn’t know what was going on. The kid must have said something like ‘I’m in for you.’ Floyd went back to the dugout. Lopez looked at him and said, ‘I see you don’t want to play today so you can have a seat on the bench.’ Floyd didn’t move or say anything the rest of the day.”

Do that today and a manager would get crucified.

Lip

SI1020
04-12-2011, 11:38 AM
All I remember is how terrible he was when given the chance to close last August. At least to me, he will remain one of the key reasons we lost the division in 2010.

Good riddance. I agree he didn't step up when given a chance to close, but I wouldn't mind having him back this year. Decent bullpens are really hard to come by in today's game.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:39 AM
Nellie, a lot of fans are not old enough to remember championship teams that stressed fundamentals and played what is now referred to as "small ball." Most baseball fans younger than 30 are used to seeing steroid-enhanced teams such as the late 80s/early 90s Oakland teams or the Manny/Papi Boston teams dominate. Just look back at the threads where the idea of a #6 hitter laying down a bunt to put the team in position to score a run without getting a hit is mocked and ridiculed, or the idea of bunting period is regarded with disdain. I'll rejoice the day when ESPN shows a highlight of a sacrifice bunt that led to a winning run being scored. Not holding my breath, though.

I am waiting for a ZollioVersallies type to be a MVP. Well at least I can still dream.

asindc
04-12-2011, 11:39 AM
All I remember is how terrible he was when given the chance to close last August. At least to me, he will remain one of the key reasons we lost the division in 2010.

Good riddance.

He was pitching through a nagging injury, if I recall correctly.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:41 AM
All I remember is how terrible he was when given the chance to close last August. At least to me, he will remain one of the key reasons we lost the division in 2010.

Good riddance.

I think he was hurting there, he pitched a lot last year coming off his injury.

Lip Man 1
04-12-2011, 11:43 AM
Sox Speed:

Specifically towards your comment, it's not that he dropped the ball (even though it should have been caught) but the fact that he is even in the big leagues for over nine years as a deficient outfielder. I think that's the larger point the broadcaster was making (if I can make an assumption for him...)

And it's not directed specifically towards Pierre. In the first ten days we've seen the Sox bunt into a triple play, have a runner picked off 2nd base in a crucial spot, seen outfielders drop FOUR catchable balls, seen a runner (Quentin) thrown out at 3rd trying to advance on a hit (with the ball right in front of him...)

Things like this are the difference between winning or losing games, between being 8-2 and 6-4 between possibly playing baseball in the middle of October or playing golf at home.

And yes Putz (and Thornton) were hurting down the stretch...they were hurting and went on the DL because they were overused. They were overused because Jenks kept spending time on the DL or was unavailable to pitch. It caused a domino effect.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
04-12-2011, 11:43 AM
I am waiting for a ZollioVersallies type to be a MVP. Well at least I can still dream.How about a Nellie Fox type? It'll never happen with the current emphasis on home runs. Of course, there are no Nellie Fox types playing today.

SI1020
04-12-2011, 11:45 AM
How about a Nellie Fox type? It'll never happen with the current emphasis on home runs. Of course, there are no Nellie Fox types playing today. There are no Nellie Fox bottle bats either. My bat of choice as a kid, and it doesn't even look remotely like those toothpick thin bats so many MLB players use today.

GoGoCrede
04-12-2011, 11:46 AM
How about a Nellie Fox type? It'll never happen with the current emphasis on home runs. Of course, there are no Nellie Fox types playing today.

Of course not. They're all far too old to play! :tongue:

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:47 AM
How about a Nellie Fox type? It'll never happen with the current emphasis on home runs. Of course, there are no Nellie Fox types playing today.

Oh you know I loved Nellie but Nellie was before Versallies so I didnt use Nellie.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 11:49 AM
EVERYTHING WAS BETTER IN THE '50s!

asindc
04-12-2011, 11:51 AM
EVERYTHING WAS BETTER IN THE '50s!

Not everything, but overall fundamentals and smart play were better, for the reasons Lip and others have outlined.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 11:52 AM
Nellie, a lot of fans are not old enough to remember championship teams that stressed fundamentals and played what is now referred to as "small ball." Most baseball fans younger than 30 are used to seeing steroid-enhanced teams such as the late 80s/early 90s Oakland teams or the Manny/Papi Boston teams dominate. Just look back at the threads where the idea of a #6 hitter laying down a bunt to put the team in position to score a run without getting a hit is mocked and ridiculed, or the idea of bunting period is regarded with disdain. I'll rejoice the day when ESPN shows a highlight of a sacrifice bunt that led to a winning run being scored. Not holding my breath, though.

The #6 hitter who is the DEFENDING SILVER SLUGGER AWARD WINNER AT HIS POSITION. You know why teams don't lay down bunts and try and execute hit and runs as much? THOSE TEAMS DON'T ****ING WIN. Cry all you want about "baseball stupid" players not playing the idealized way it was played in the '20s, but if you're actually interested in winning in the American League, you'd better be ready to mash.

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:52 AM
EVERYTHING WAS BETTER IN THE '50s!


Yup I knew this was coming.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Not everything, but overall fundamentals and smart play were better, for the reasons Lip and others have outlined.

It's nothing but fictionalized nonsense.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Yup I knew this was coming.

Some people just refuse to believe that things change.

womp womp

wassagstdu
04-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Unfortunately what you and I grew up with just isn't important anymore to most players and maybe even more importantly organizations.


And yet they are paid 50-100 times more than Nellie Fox and we pay 20 times more to watch them. What is wrong with this picture? Apparently we prefer to watch players who play like some of us did in Little League -- but who do enough weight training to hit the long ball (I'm looking at you, Brent).

But seriously, I have never seen anyone play the outfield as badly as Pierre has this last week. He looks very shaky even on balls he catches. I wonder if he is having vision problems. Or maybe he should try running on the balls of his feet like -- dare I say it -- Pods. Maybe Pierre was out the day his little league coach taught the team that running on your heels makes the ball bounce in the air.

GoGoCrede
04-12-2011, 11:55 AM
And yet they are paid 50-100 times more than Nellie Fox and we pay 20 times more to watch them. What is wrong with this picture? Apparently we prefer to watch players who play like some of us did in Little League -- but who do enough weight training to hit the long ball (I'm looking at you, Brent).

But...haven't prices for everything gone up since the 1950s? :?:

Noneck
04-12-2011, 11:57 AM
Some people just refuse to believe that things change.

womp womp


Give it time, hope you are around 20 years from now. Then you'll be talking like us older guys and getting ripped by the younger guys. Its the natural course of life.

Nellie_Fox
04-12-2011, 12:01 PM
Oh you know I loved Nellie but Nellie was before Versallies so I didnt use Nellie.

Some people just refuse to believe that things change.

womp womp"Change" doesn't always equal "better."

kufram
04-12-2011, 12:04 PM
It's nothing but fictionalized nonsense.


Sorry, but no... it really isn't. Some of the routes to balls in the outfield these days, for example, simply were below major league standards back then. Steroids has an awful lot to answer for with regards to fan expectations concerning the hitting, also.

asindc
04-12-2011, 12:08 PM
It's nothing but fictionalized nonsense.

It's neither fiction nor nonsense. Players are generally more athletic, but as Lip pointed out, they are no longer held accountable for fundamental errors or even lack of hustle in most cases. If you think I'm wrong, let's see if Pierre starts in LF today.

TheOldRoman
04-12-2011, 12:09 PM
"Change" doesn't always equal "better."*Resists urge to roadhouse thread*
I agree.

doublem23
04-12-2011, 12:17 PM
It's neither fiction nor nonsense. Players are generally more athletic, but as Lip pointed out, they are no longer held accountable for fundamental errors or even lack of hustle in most cases. If you think I'm wrong, let's see if Pierre starts in LF today.

What do you ****ing thing Pierre needs to sit in a time out on the bench just to make sure he knows he made a bad play yesterday?

Holy ****. :rolling:

DirtySox
04-12-2011, 12:21 PM
This thread has become hilarious and 10 times more bunty.

asindc
04-12-2011, 12:23 PM
What do you ****ing thing Pierre needs to sit in a time out on the bench just to make sure he knows he made a bad play yesterday?

Holy ****. :rolling:

How do you propose the Sox hold him accountable?

GoSox2K3
04-12-2011, 12:29 PM
What a bunch of idiocy in this thread... Let's see, were supposed to win 162 games, Ozzie needs to be clairvoyant, the coaching staff has to stop everything and teach the most veteran club we've had in years and we can't ever make an error.

One baseball game here folks. Do we forget how good this team looked the last 2 days?? The first 8 innings??

Excuse me if the CLOSER is not supposed to close the damn game. The Sox made a big investment in Thornton in the offseason, and if he can't hack it that's on him. April is when you find out these things.

And for this who are so convinced the bullpen is set up wrong, please enlighten us... Thornton has been a solid player for us for years and earned his shot. Who to say that Santos or Sale can handle the role in their second seasons?

You guys sound like a bunch of bipolar axe-grinders looking for any excuse to let loose.

:rolleyes:

Oh please, what posts contain this "idiocy"? Most of the posts here are pretty much on the mark. It's your post that is arguably the most laughable in this thread.

This team looked good the first 8 innings?:?: What color is the sky in our world?

There's a lot to be positive about regarding this team, but having 3 blown lead debacles in your first 10 games is NOT good no matter how desperately you try to spin it.

IMO, cutting down on the frequent, costly errors and having a bullpen that can actually hold leads will be the difference between this being a fantastic year and a frustrating year for the Sox.

GoSox2K3
04-12-2011, 12:31 PM
Regrading Jenks, just remember all those advocating for him to have been brought back. He blew games in his career, and that number seemed to be going up more and more the past few years (when he wasn't on the DL that is...) The Sox knew he wasn't coming back in any case, they made that decision as far back as last July.

Lip

Let's not forget that offering Jenks arbitration for this year would have meant something like a $7 million salary for him from the Sox. Part of the Sox decision was based on cost and not just on personally wanting Jenks gone.

JB98
04-12-2011, 12:33 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20, but if the Sox hadn't acquired Manny last season (and had to pay his salary for a month), would they have had the money in this year's budget to pay Andruw Jones to be our late inning defensive replacement in the outfield? Lillibridge and Teahen are below average in the field. It would be nice to have a 4th outfielder who could actually help us in the field in the 8th or 9th inning.

If Jones were still on the roster, I honestly don't believe he would be used as a defensive replacement for Pierre. They never did that last year. I recall times where Jones was used as a defensive replacement in RF last season, but never LF.

I don't think Andruw Jones would have made a difference last night or last Friday.

TDog
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
...
Oh T-Dog, I don't understand the comment about "losingest" team? Are you talking about Boston who hasn't had a losing season since the mid-90's? (Maybe it was a typo??)

Still have a chance to take the series but it's just gotten a damn sight harder.

Lip

Boston, this season, is one of the losingest teams in baseball. The news has been in all the papers. I don't believe Boston will have a losing record for long (just as I don't believe the Indians will win every game that isn't against the White Sox this year), but the Red Sox have a miserable record since Bobby Jenks joined the team. So far this season, the only thing Bobby Jenks has had to smile about is the dismal performance of White Sox bullpen, especially at closer.

The Sox bullpen last August performed miserably when Jenks went down last season because Putz and Thornton let games get away. It was Thornton who gave up the home run to Thome in Minnesota last summer to give up a lead in extra innings. The bullpen needed Jenks last year. Despite your hatred for Jenks and his conditioning, the bullpen has pitched as though they need him this year.

Sale came in and converted saves, but in his first full season of pro ball, he doesn't seem as solid, coughing up an eighth-inning two-run lead the first time he was tested.

I would love for pitchers to pitch more complete games, but that isn't going to happen. Closers are a reality. The reason teams have gone to designating closers, even though many don't have the talent, is that closing games is hugely mental. Maybe Thornton has a mental block, and he'll turn things around. He may just be going through a funk like Roberto Hernandez or Keith Foulke. Right now he is more reminiscent of Billy Koch. Maybe Thornton will be replaced by Sale or Crain or Santos.

It's still early April. I don't know if panic is justified. I don't know if bullpen has been exposed or if it going through some uncharacteristic funk. Crain could turn out to be a huge addition to the bullpen, and Ohman might not be so bad. But I do know the appears to have weakened the bullpen that was to blame for the Sox losing the division lead last August when they had one of the top offensive teams in baseball.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-12-2011, 01:22 PM
You would have a tough time coming up with a softer start to the season than CLE, KC, TB and OAK. They were in a position to really fatten up and didn't take advantage. 6-4 is okay if you plan on finishing in second place. I don't care how early in the season it is, blowing games to teams of that caliber is not how you make the playoffs.

TomBradley72
04-12-2011, 01:59 PM
You would have a tough time coming up with a softer start to the season than CLE, KC, TB and OAK. They were in a position to really fatten up and didn't take advantage. 6-4 is okay if you plan on finishing in second place. I don't care how early in the season it is, blowing games to teams of that caliber is not how you make the playoffs.

2 out of 3 from CLE (they are 7-1 against the rest of the league)
1-1 vs. KC on the road (they are 5-2 against the rest of the league)
3 of 4 from TB (1-5 against rest of league)

Is fine- would it be nice to sweep? Yes. But they have been getting the job done- can still take 2 of 3 from OAK.

jdm2662
04-12-2011, 02:05 PM
2 out of 3 from CLE (they are 7-1 against the rest of the league)
1-1 vs. KC on the road (they are 5-2 against the rest of the league)
3 of 4 from TB (1-5 against rest of league)

Is fine- would it be nice to sweep? Yes. But they have been getting the job done- can still take 2 of 3 from OAK.

The Indians have won eight in row and haven't lost since the first two games they played the Sox.