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kufram
04-08-2011, 12:58 PM
How worried are you about the closer situation?

In my opinion the problem with Thornton being the closer is that it means you lose the best left-handed set-up man in the league, a role that could be just as important.

Sale is very young and possibly more fearless because of that. He just MAY be great as this year's closer... but how does that effect his long term future (and the team's?). Can he last a year in that role?

Santos shows real potential and could have the most sound mentality for the closer role. I like him and his background a lot.

Crain, I don't know enough about to comment.

Ohman, I think I do know enough about although I haven't made him the new Linebrink yet... that's a title you really have to do a lot of damage to earn. I don't give it away in 6 games.

Do we close by committee? Sounds like a good idea to me, but don't know if that has ever been done successfully. Please let me know if you know any different.

Plan F.... hit in so many runs 2 out of every 3 games that the role is isn't necessary?

kittle42
04-08-2011, 01:05 PM
It's pretty clear that Thornton is the closer, and that job is his unless he starts blowing saves left and right. Despite the bullpen issues in the first week (look around baseball - many teams have had them), I think Thornton, with Sale, Crain, and Santos primarily behind him, will be just fine. Nothing to see here!

gobears1987
04-08-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm fine with Thornton as our closer. Yes he blew the save the other night, but it was on a good pitch that was well located. You can't blame him for blowing a save when a player fights off what was a great pitch. If he's walking guys and giving up hard hit balls, then we have a problem.

LITTLE NELL
04-08-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm leaning towards Santos, I like Thornton for the set up guy in the 8th.

Mingo
04-08-2011, 03:27 PM
I took one look at Santos yesterday and said - he will be the closer by the end of the year.

Noneck
04-08-2011, 03:30 PM
A team that has 4 viable closers does not have a problem.

Irishsox1
04-08-2011, 03:32 PM
I still don't know who the Sox would bring in to close the game if they had a run one lead on the road in Minnesota.

LITTLE NELL
04-08-2011, 03:50 PM
I still don't know who the Sox would bring in to close the game if they had a run one lead on the road in Minnesota.

Maybe Bobby Jenks would be available.

AnkleSox
04-08-2011, 03:51 PM
I still don't know who the Sox would bring in to close the game if they had a run one lead on the road in Minnesota.

Might as well just throw a pitching machine up there because you know the Twins will find some ridiculous way to win the game no matter what.

kufram
04-08-2011, 03:51 PM
I'm not saying Thornton shouldn't be the closer nor do I mean to imply we have a problem. I, personally, think that the pen will settle down.... including Ohman. We've had a bullpen problem but it is only 6 games.

What we don't have is a bona fide closer... but we didn't do that well when we DID have a bona fide closer.

It is just a discussion point because I'm not sure the job is claimed as yet.

Has Ozzie declared who it is?

PalehosePlanet
04-08-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm not saying Thornton shouldn't be the closer nor do I mean to imply we have a problem. I, personally, think that the pen will settle down.... including Ohman. We've had a bullpen problem but it is only 6 games.

What we don't have is a bona fide closer... but we didn't do that well when we DID have a bona fide closer.

It is just a discussion point because I'm not sure the job is claimed as yet.

Has Ozzie declared who it is?

Yes, it's Thornton.

And as Noneck mentioned we have plenty of viable candidates.

Domeshot17
04-08-2011, 04:16 PM
A team that has 4 viable closers does not have a problem.

I love Thornton-Santos-Sale...But Crain is hardly a viable candidate to close.

Noneck
04-08-2011, 04:42 PM
I love Thornton-Santos-Sale...But Crain is hardly a viable candidate to close.


It sure is nice to have another guy that is an experienced major leaguer that can close beside Thornton.

gobears1987
04-08-2011, 04:47 PM
I still don't know who the Sox would bring in to close the game if they had a run one lead on the road in Minnesota.

Joe Mauer can't touch Sale and has publicly spoken about how impressed he was by his pitches when he had to face them.

TDog
04-08-2011, 05:25 PM
A team that has 4 viable closers does not have a problem.

Not if you don't live fiercely by the closer mentality.

With Thornton as your closer, you are close to having a closer by committee because it's doubtful that he will come in to close more than a couple games in a row if the White Sox play a lot of close baseball.

russ99
04-08-2011, 07:35 PM
Thornton may need a bit of an adjustment period to settle in as closer, but I'm cool with that.

Also, Crain, Sale and Santos should be pretty solid in the late innings.

My concern is the other 2-3 relievers messing up so badly and so often that the 4 guys we should be able to count on get overworked and end up having to do more than their expected roles.

I don't want to see the Sox miss out on the division title because our pen got burned out.

Noneck
04-08-2011, 09:09 PM
Not if you don't live fiercely by the closer mentality.

With Thornton as your closer, you are close to having a closer by committee because it's doubtful that he will come in to close more than a couple games in a row if the White Sox play a lot of close baseball.

The point is if Thornton is not the closer, there are 3 others that can take that role. If Thornton is the closer then there are others to fill in. I am not promoting anyone as the closer, just stating there are many options which is very nice.

FoulTerritory
04-08-2011, 10:19 PM
Thornton is not a closer because he has no viable #2 pitch. Consistent closers usually have two "out" pitches, or at least one out pitch and another pitch good enough to keep 'em off balance.

Aside from the bad defense in this current debacle, the other noticeable issue is that Thornton just keeps pumping fastballs.

RadioheadRocks
04-08-2011, 10:32 PM
If tonight's fiasco is any indication, not so much...

SCCWS
04-08-2011, 10:40 PM
Maybe we can trade for Jenks. He is mowing them down in Boston as a set-up guy.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2011, 10:57 PM
SCC:

I assume you said this in jest but if not no thank you.

Lip

kufram
04-09-2011, 04:28 AM
I agree that we have 3 or 4 guys that CAN do the job, but do we have any one guy that WILL do the job. That remains to be seen.

I would worry less about shaking up a bullpen that hasn't settled in yet or hasn't really defined itself yet as opposed to waiting until it becomes a big problem and the pressure builds to where you are changing it around because you HAVE to.

These are only thoughts. I still think it might all settle down. Maybe we're getting the kinks out early... with the defense as well. I was only thinking last night how TCM's throws have been very good this year. I didn't see the game last night as I'm 6 hours ahead but it reads like 3 things went wrong in the same inning and, unfortunately, it was the 9th and that, too, is baseball sometimes.

Teahen did show his use, though. He really isn't a bad bat off the bench.

P.S. No Bobby back please. His work here is finished. I'm not completely surprised that he still has a job.

gobears1987
04-09-2011, 04:33 AM
Maybe we can trade for Jenks. He is mowing them down in Boston as a set-up guy.

I don't want him anywhere near this team. I don't think his ex-teammates do either since none of them kept his number in their phones after he left.

gobears1987
04-09-2011, 04:37 AM
Thornton is not a closer because he has no viable #2 pitch. Consistent closers usually have two "out" pitches, or at least one out pitch and another pitch good enough to keep 'em off balance.

Aside from the bad defense in this current debacle, the other noticeable issue is that Thornton just keeps pumping fastballs.

http://blog.prorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mariano-rivera.jpg

What is this #2 pitch you speak of?

fox23
04-09-2011, 06:40 AM
http://blog.prorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mariano-rivera.jpg

What is this #2 pitch you speak of?

We are only counting mortals in this conversation.

FoulTerritory
04-09-2011, 09:11 AM
http://blog.prorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mariano-rivera.jpg

What is this #2 pitch you speak of?

Ha! good point. I did qualify my claim with the word "usually" though. :)

I will say that if you are a one pitch pitcher as closer, I think you're better off with a cutter that moves like crazy (Rivera), than a straight power fastball like Thornton that, once timed, is hittable.

gobears1987
04-09-2011, 09:28 AM
Ha! good point. I did qualify my claim with the word "usually" though. :)

I will say that if you are a one pitch pitcher as closer, I think you're better off with a cutter that moves like crazy (Rivera), than a straight power fastball like Thornton that, once timed, is hittable.

That point is valid. Movement and location are more important than speed on a pitch.

SCCWS
04-09-2011, 10:07 AM
SCC:

I assume you said this in jest but if not no thank you.

Lip

I did. But the Red Sox would not trade him. He is their insurance policy on Papelbon who had some rough patches last year. The Red Sox will unload pretty quickly any clubhouse cancers. Everett and Manny were examples of guys they hustled out the door when their teammates got fed upwith them. Jenks will toe the line there or else.

But our bullpen may be in trouble.

russ99
04-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Interesting. After reading in the paper today about Matt's velocity being down, maybe he's just ramping up this spring like Bobby always had to.

Usually it took Bobby 3-4 weeks to get his velocity up to it's usual level.

If Matt's at a hittable 93 now, maybe he can get it up to his less hittable 97-98 in a few weeks.

That might be worth putting up with a few shaky outings early on.

sullythered
04-09-2011, 10:34 AM
I did. But the Red Sox would not trade him. He is their insurance policy on Papelbon who had some rough patches last year. The Red Sox will unload pretty quickly any clubhouse cancers. Everett and Manny were examples of guys they hustled out the door when their teammates got fed upwith them. Jenks will toe the line there or else.

But our bullpen may be in trouble.
By all accounts I have ever heard, Everett was a phenomenal clubhouse guy.

kufram
04-09-2011, 11:16 AM
http://blog.prorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mariano-rivera.jpg

What is this #2 pitch you speak of?


His one pitch is not a straight fastball.

gobears1987
04-09-2011, 11:33 AM
By all accounts I have ever heard, Everett was a phenomenal clubhouse guy.

I heard bad stories about him from other teams, but nothing bad was said about his two tenures with the Sox. Kenny wouldn't have traded for him a 2nd time if he was a cancer the first time around.

doublem23
04-09-2011, 12:32 PM
His one pitch is not a straight fastball.

Right, and his one pitch is a plus pitch. Thornton's been a one-pitch pitcher for most of his career, too, and he was just fine, when that fastball was a plus-pitch, as well. Big difference between hitting 97-98 on the gun to 93-95.

downstairs
04-09-2011, 12:56 PM
http://blog.prorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mariano-rivera.jpg

What is this #2 pitch you speak of?

He doesn't count. Yeah, he has one "pitch" but he can do like 5 things with it... and the batter can't see any of it coming. TOTALLY different scenario.

hawkjt
04-09-2011, 01:27 PM
I really think that Sale will end up as the closer,sooner or later. It is what they set the bullpen up for,and his last outing he looked good. He is deceptive,as well as having good stuff. Thornton is not deceptive,he is more...here it is,hit it...well at 94mph..they hit it. I think he will get better as he goes along,but fits the set up role better.

Lip Man 1
04-09-2011, 02:57 PM
How much if any could the weather be playing a part in this. Hard to get warm and loose and throw easy when it's 40 degrees out, damp and raw.

Lip

Hitmen77
04-09-2011, 03:52 PM
I really think that Sale will end up as the closer,sooner or later. It is what they set the bullpen up for,and his last outing he looked good. He is deceptive,as well as having good stuff. Thornton is not deceptive,he is more...here it is,hit it...well at 94mph..they hit it. I think he will get better as he goes along,but fits the set up role better.

I can see Sale moving into the closer spot at some point. With his struggles this spring, I completely agree with him not being named our closer. But he performs well during the regular season, maybe we're better off in the long run with Thornton as our 8th inning guy and Sale as our closer for this year.

As far as yesterday's meltdown, the Sox do have bullpen worries but they can fix some of that by STOP MAKING ERRORS. :angry:

soxfanreggie
04-09-2011, 04:03 PM
I still don't know who the Sox would bring in to close the game if they had a run one lead on the road in Minnesota.

Burls?

Lip Man 1
04-09-2011, 06:44 PM
It's a valid point about Matt being a fastball only guy (although he says he throws a slider.)

Remember he's what 34? I don't know how easy it would be at this point in his career to start learning new pitches or how you could work on them without being in a realistic game situation.

Again though, it's a good point. Bobby Thigpen didn't become an elite relief guy until Jeff Torborg and Sammy Ellis finally convinced him to start using his slider more after a disasterous outing early in the 1990 season at Texas.

Lip

DirtySox
04-09-2011, 07:11 PM
It's a valid point about Matt being a fastball only guy (although he says he throws a slider.)



He does throw a slider, but he's used it less and less over the years and it's nothing but a show-me pitch. He also has a changeup that he pretty much hasn't thrown since 2008. You can look at his pitch values and the percentages on Fangraphs.

DirtySox
04-09-2011, 07:12 PM
CSNChi_Beatnik Brett Ballantini
No CL controversy but, fr Ozzie: "Dont be surprised if you c Santos in 9th. Ppl see "closer"—thats a title. I dont know who gets that title"
5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Like.

SCCWS
04-09-2011, 08:14 PM
By all accounts I have ever heard, Everett was a phenomenal clubhouse guy.

Try this account:

Everett has stated that he thrives on being hated, and that it keeps him on top of his game. Opposing players, umpires, and even his own teammates are not immune, as evidenced by his postgame shouting match with Seattle manager Mike Hargrove (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Mike_Hargrove) after a 14-6 loss to the Los Angeles Angels (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Los_Angeles_Angels) on July 5, 2006.[6] (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/#cite_note-5)
Everett has also made controversial remarks about homosexuality (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Homosexuality). He once said that if he had an openly gay teammate that he would consider retiring, or, at the very least, "set him straight." In the 2005 season, he told Maxim (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Maxim_(magazine)) that he has had gay teammates and accepted them, but, "Gays being gay is wrong. Two women can't produce a baby, two men can't produce a baby, so it's not how it's supposed to be. … I don't believe in gay marriages. I don't believe in being gay.

Lip Man 1
04-09-2011, 08:17 PM
Everything I've heard from the Sox and the media is that Carl was a real team leader and a driving force for that 05 team. Remember how he reacted in the World Series when Crede got nailed?

Lip

Tragg
04-09-2011, 08:34 PM
My preference is that the closer throw right.

Hendu
04-11-2011, 09:31 PM
Once again, Pierre's huge error will over-shadow the fact that Thronton is getting hit HARD pretty much every time he enters the game.

hi im skot
04-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Once again, Pierre's huge error will over-shadow the fact that Thronton is getting hit HARD pretty much every time he enters the game.

Nah, Thornton's days as closer are numbered.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Not anything against Thornton, because I love the guy, but I really don't think he's going to last as a closer. I know this is 2 bad games now with crap defense behind him leading to blown saves, but he's too damn predictable. Santos looks great, and IMO, I'd give him a chance over anybody right now. Not sure how I feel about Sale closing if his future is in the rotation. Crain might deserve a look too.

Bruizer
04-12-2011, 07:46 AM
Once again, Pierre's huge error will over-shadow the fact that Thronton is getting hit HARD pretty much every time he enters the game.

Agreed. :(:

hawkjt
04-12-2011, 02:22 PM
I noticed that Matt hit 96mph last nite on the scoreboard anyway.
I think he is working up to his old velocity of 98mph,but in the meantime,Ozzie should push him to set-up and let Sale,Santos or Crain try the closer spot.

kufram
04-12-2011, 02:55 PM
I noticed that Matt hit 96mph last nite on the scoreboard anyway.
I think he is working up to his old velocity of 98mph,but in the meantime,Ozzie should push him to set-up and let Sale,Santos or Crain try the closer spot.

I'm completely open-minded on who should be "the closer". I've never been that invested in one guy pitching only in save situations but that may just be my age showing. But I do not believe in fixing things that are not broken. We had the best left-handed set-up man in baseball, I think, and perhaps we should have kept using him at what he was so good at doing.

Sale could be a great closer for this year simply because of his youth. He may just be the least affected mentally. He'll learn the mental frailties probably at some point but maybe after an effective year.

Santos LOOKS like a closer to me and his path to the majors could be what gives him the character a good closer needs.

I think the mental side of a great closer is as much with the hitters as it is with the pitcher. When Bobby was good hitters went up to the plate thinking they were in trouble.

voodoochile
04-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Some interesting and introspective comments from Thornton regarding Pierre's error on Monday...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0413-brite-white-sox-as-chicag20110412,0,2289922.story

gobears1987
04-13-2011, 12:09 PM
Some interesting and introspective comments from Thornton regarding Pierre's error on Monday...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0413-brite-white-sox-as-chicag20110412,0,2289922.story

Matt is a professional. It's a shame so many other professional athletes would react differently. Pierre is probably glad he's on this side of town right now or else he'd deal with this:

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/zambrano-barrett.jpg

Hitmen77
04-13-2011, 04:23 PM
....and the Sox bullpen fiasco continues.

seventyseven
04-13-2011, 04:26 PM
Go get a real closer NOW. We should be 11-1.

FielderJones
04-13-2011, 04:29 PM
Go get a real closer NOW. We should be 11-1.

Who's available? I'll send an email to Brooks.

russ99
04-13-2011, 06:47 PM
Go get a real closer NOW. We should be 11-1.

Other than our minor leaguers who have been playing for about a week, who is there?

Teams rarely trade in April, and even if Kenny had the available budget and were to actively look for a deal with the pen in such flux, he'd get fleeced.

The guys here are more than capable, they just need to get it together. Time for Coop to earn his salary. Maybe this day off will help somewhat.

delben91
04-13-2011, 07:37 PM
Other than our minor leaguers who have been playing for about a week, who is there?

Teams rarely trade in April, and even if Kenny had the available budget and were to actively look for a deal with the pen in such flux, he'd get fleeced.

The guys here are more than capable, they just need to get it together. Time for Coop to earn his salary. Maybe this day off will help somewhat.

Certainly can't hurt.

FoulTerritory
04-13-2011, 07:37 PM
Other than our minor leaguers who have been playing for about a week, who is there?

Teams rarely trade in April, and even if Kenny had the available budget and were to actively look for a deal with the pen in such flux, he'd get fleeced.

The guys here are more than capable, they just need to get it together. Time for Coop to earn his salary. Maybe this day off will help somewhat.

Santos has been virtually unhittable and has nasty stuff. There's your closer. The bigger problem is that even if they make that move, it creates a set-up hole. Lets face it, Thornton throwing 4-5 mph slower than in previous years makes him bad, whether he's closing or not. He, like Koch before him, has no other good pitch, so without the high-end velocity, he's going to be useless.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-13-2011, 07:43 PM
Nah, Thornton's days as closer are numbered.

And I think that number just came up today.

voodoochile
04-13-2011, 07:44 PM
And I think that number just came up today.

Yep I think we see Santos get the next crack as he's been the most consistent with the best stuff. He also has the right mentality for closer I believe and I think he's gonna be just fine.

cards press box
04-13-2011, 09:09 PM
Yep I think we see Santos get the next crack as he's been the most consistent with the best stuff. He also has the right mentality for closer I believe and I think he's gonna be just fine.

I agree.

Moses_Scurry
04-13-2011, 10:52 PM
Yep I think we see Santos get the next crack as he's been the most consistent with the best stuff. He also has the right mentality for closer I believe and I think he's gonna be just fine.

Not to single you out, because I have seen this repeatedly, but how would anybody here have any idea whether or not Santos has the right mentality for closer???

I'm all for giving him a shot, just because there's no one else left. But, there is a very real possibility that he'll blow his first chance as badly as the others. Who is the answer then?? I don't think it's fair to count out Sale because of today. He clearly shouldn't have been out there.

TDog
04-13-2011, 11:53 PM
Not to single you out, because I have seen this repeatedly, but how would anybody here have any idea whether or not Santos has the right mentality for closer???

I'm all for giving him a shot, just because there's no one else left. But, there is a very real possibility that he'll blow his first chance as badly as the others. Who is the answer then?? I don't think it's fair to count out Sale because of today. He clearly shouldn't have been out there.

You don't know, of course, and it's not fair to count out Sale. It's probably not fair to count out Thornton. Coaches might have an idea, but obviously if they could be certain, there would be fewer failed closers. And as a fan you can only assume Thornton doesn't have the mental makeup to be a closer. It's possible his ability to close has nothing to do with the fact that he has blown as many save opportunities as the league leader in saves has converted this year. When the White Sox saw Chris Perez a couple of years ago, he looked like he would never close, and that seems to be why the Cardinals gave up on him. Now he seems lights out.

Some pitchers with little experience come in and make closing look easy. Andrew Bailey was a starter in AA before making the A's staff because of injuries and being put in the closer role by a manager who ran out of ideas. Maybe he wasn't a great closer, but he didn't blow a lot of saves and unless you live in Northern California, all you know of the A's are stats and he was voted Rookie of the Year. (He's been hurt since, but the A's didn't have any problem replacing him.) Neftali Feliz was a closer in the Gulf Coast League at 18, but blew as many games as he saved. He became a starter and didn't close again until he was playing in the majors for a different organization.

There is no reason to believe Santos can't close. But I honestly don't believe that unless you have someone like Rich Gossage, you need a designated closer.

voodoochile
04-14-2011, 02:06 AM
Not to single you out, because I have seen this repeatedly, but how would anybody here have any idea whether or not Santos has the right mentality for closer???

I'm all for giving him a shot, just because there's no one else left. But, there is a very real possibility that he'll blow his first chance as badly as the others. Who is the answer then?? I don't think it's fair to count out Sale because of today. He clearly shouldn't have been out there.

I can't tell you why I see that in him, but I do. Maybe it's just the way he carries himself on the mound, they way he challenges hitters, the way he is willing to throw any of his pitches at any time in the count, the few quotes I've seen from him. More likely it's a combination of all those things. Whatever it is, I feel as confident in him to be the closer as I can. I never felt that way with Thornton. I do have some of that feeling with Sale, but he's struggling at the moment.

Edit: Oh and I've felt that way about Santos since the first few times I saw him pitch. Even when he was struggling midway through last season, I expected him to turn it around and continue his learning curve.

GoSox2K3
04-14-2011, 09:42 AM
The White Sox, again, are paying the price for having no viable talent in the minors.

Why are they turning to a gassed reliever who pitched 2 innings the night before when we have a 3 run lead? Where is Jeff Gray? The Sox probably fear that he'd get totally lit up....and yet he's the best option from our minor league system to step up to our bullpen?

I'm not saying I expect them to find a closer from their farm system (unless it's farm product Santos), but we've seen this in past years. The cupboards are bare then the Sox need to find enough serviceable arms from the pen.

Since 2005, the Sox approach to building a contender has been like a whack-a-mole game. There's always some glaring hole out there that just kills us. In 2006, Brian Anderson was going to be our starting CF....until we flopped and we had to throw Mackowiak to the wolves out there. Last year, we only needed bench players for DH. This year, we can compete by patching together an unimpressive bullpen and just hope someone can get some outs. To think that the kind of pitcher like Thornton could thrive as a closer just because he was able to blow away hitters as an LH set up man in the past was just foolish.

Maybe one of these years Sox management will understand what "all" means when you say "all in".

102605
04-14-2011, 09:45 AM
The White Sox, again, are paying the price for having no viable talent in the minors.

KW tends to trade away his chips for proven MLB talent and I am fine with this. The White Sox do have one very talented future bullpen arm but he is a few years away still.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=592665

Nelfox02
04-14-2011, 12:44 PM
Since 2005, the Sox approach to building a contender has been like a whack-a-mole game. There's always some glaring hole out there that just kills us. In 2006, Brian Anderson was going to be our starting CF....until we flopped and we had to throw Mackowiak to the wolves out there. Last year, we only needed bench players for DH. This year, we can compete by patching together an unimpressive bullpen and just hope someone can get some outs. To think that the kind of pitcher like Thornton could thrive as a closer just because he was able to blow away hitters as an LH set up man in the past was just foolish.

Maybe one of these years Sox management will understand what "all" means when you say "all in".


dead on. But after complaining about it for years, I have pretty much surrendered the point because everytime I think the situation gets so bad that something will HAVE TO change....it doesnt. Guillen is here for at least another year, Kenny will be here for god knows how much longer.

Will the bullpen issue get better? maybe, sure cant get much worse. But even if it does, I am sure there will be some other issue (offense will stop hitting, starters will get rocked, defense will get shaky, something....) that will keep this team from taking the next step.

They might get their normal June spurt, but in the end I just dont see this team finishing better than a few games over .500

I have just completely lost faith in this organizations ability to field a consistent quality product. I will give them credit for keeping the sox at least mediocre for the most part in recent years....but I dont see anything to get real excited about.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-14-2011, 01:18 PM
KW tends to trade away his chips for proven MLB talent and I am fine with this. The White Sox do have one very talented future bullpen arm but he is a few years away still.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=592665

Hopefully. I really like him. It would be nice to have some homegrown guys make their way up and leave a nice positive impact on the Sox in the next 2-3 years.

SephClone89
04-14-2011, 01:38 PM
Fangraphs chimes in. (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-white-sox-cant-close-the-deal/)

kufram
04-14-2011, 02:15 PM
At the moment I've decided to think that we have just started the season with a bullpen in a perfect storm. I really don't think you can manage a pen into that... it just is. I refuse to be a dark cloud because life is too short and I couldn't stay a fan under those conditions.

It will not stay this bad because it can't. It's like last year when some thought the team would hit .150 all year. As for the ironic cheers at the park when a catch is made? .... I'm just glad I'm not there. Cheap shots and downright rude.

Lip Man 1
04-14-2011, 02:25 PM
GoSox:

You make some valid points but based on your comments, to me, there are only two ways to "solve" the 'issues' you bring up:

A. The White Sox have to become the Yankees / Red Sox in terms of spending to try to 'cover' each and every possible hole. That only happens with new ownership. Current ownership has set their limits and agree or disagree, they stand by them within reason.

B. The GM needs to be replaced since he is the one who puts the team together, not Ozzie. Again this isn't going to happen because of the bond JR and Kenny has. Kenny may retire, he might resign but he'll never be fired, save for doing something illegal.

Right or wrong, that's reality. So as Kenny himself would say, "it is what it is..."

Lip

jdm2662
04-14-2011, 02:36 PM
I get people are not happy with the bullpen (hell, I'm not either). However, for those complaining the Sox are never complete per say, and need to increase their budget for a complete team, has anyone seen the Red Sox and Yankees rotation this year? $400 million, and each team can barely field two good starters. They are as flawed as any other team in the majors. Maybe building a perfect team isn't that easy.

As for the issue with closer, well, my opinion is simple. A pitcher's job is to get outs. It doesn't matter what inning it is. Right now, with the way Thorton is pitching, he would be rocked in the first inning, too. My choice would be Santos right now as he seems to have the best stuff at the moment. He has a 95+ fastball and a slider he can actually throw for strikes. I always said for years bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen anyway.

DirtySox
04-14-2011, 02:48 PM
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1091292942/images_normal.jpeg
JimBowdenXMFox (http://twitter.com/#%21/JimBowdenXMFox) JIM BOWDEN
Don Cooper just told us that Sergio Santos might be the next to get a chance at closing. Also, said he might be the toughest mentally.
2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/JimBowdenXMFox/status/58617082434174976) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

aryzner
04-14-2011, 02:53 PM
Good.

Santos is the right choice in my opinion.

kufram
04-14-2011, 04:41 PM
I get people are not happy with the bullpen (hell, I'm not either). However, for those complaining the Sox are never complete per say, and need to increase their budget for a complete team, has anyone seen the Red Sox and Yankees rotation this year? $400 million, and each team can barely field two good starters. They are as flawed as any other team in the majors. Maybe building a perfect team isn't that easy.

As for the issue with closer, well, my opinion is simple. A pitcher's job is to get outs. It doesn't matter what inning it is. Right now, with the way Thorton is pitching, he would be rocked in the first inning, too. My choice would be Santos right now as he seems to have the best stuff at the moment. He has a 95+ fastball and a slider he can actually throw for strikes. I always said for years bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen anyway.

This +1

bechtel129
04-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Santos strangely reminds me of Bobby Jenks, but in much, much, much better physical shape.
Above average fastball, above average breaking ball, young, and has a strong mound presence. He's also going to walk guys like Bobby did, strike guys out, and get some grounders for DP's. He's going to scare the crap out of you some nights, but get it done. Crap...for the reason he is the only reliever yet to give up a run- give him a shot. He just looks and feels like the right fit to close out games. They have brought him along so slowly in his role for the past 2 years, he should have all the confidence to do it. Tell me why I'm wrong?

TDog
04-14-2011, 06:50 PM
GoSox:

You make some valid points but based on your comments, to me, there are only two ways to "solve" the 'issues' you bring up:

A. The White Sox have to become the Yankees / Red Sox in terms of spending to try to 'cover' each and every possible hole. That only happens with new ownership. Current ownership has set their limits and agree or disagree, they stand by them within reason.

B. The GM needs to be replaced since he is the one who puts the team together, not Ozzie. Again this isn't going to happen because of the bond JR and Kenny has. Kenny may retire, he might resign but he'll never be fired, save for doing something illegal.

Right or wrong, that's reality. So as Kenny himself would say, "it is what it is..."

Lip

Frankly, I don't see that much wrong with the way the White Sox were put together this offseason. They have good hitting. They have a strong starting rotation. They seemed to have pitchers who could close games. They sacrificed some outfield defense for offense, but basically it's the offense that brings people out to the ballpark. You can't spend like the Yankees and Red Sox unless you know people are going to come out to the ballpark.

The Twins suffered more losses to their bullpen over the offseason than the White Sox did, and when I've watched Nathan pitch, he's been hit harder than I've seen Thornton pitch this season. The White Sox bullpen problems over the long haul might not be as bad as the Twins bullpen problems. And with Liriano not seeming at all a good pitcher anymore, pitching might be a serious problem for the Twins this season.

Realistically, if the White Sox were covering every possible hole, they wouldn't have signed Dunn because they already have people who can hit but can't play defense very well. The White Sox have the highest payroll in the team's history. Covering each and every hole, building a deeper building and a better defensive team would have meant not signing Dunn, but I'm sure that's not what you're advocating.

The White Sox will never be able to spend like the Red Sox and Yankees. It would be ridiculous to demand that they should.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 07:11 PM
Frankly, I don't see that much wrong with the way the White Sox were put together this offseason. They have good hitting. They have a strong starting rotation. They seemed to have pitchers who could close games. They sacrificed some outfield defense for offense, but basically it's the offense that brings people out to the ballpark. You can't spend like the Yankees and Red Sox unless you know people are going to come out to the ballpark.

The Twins suffered more losses to their bullpen over the offseason than the White Sox did, and when I've watched Nathan pitch, he's been hit harder than I've seen Thornton pitch this season. The White Sox bullpen problems over the long haul might not be as bad as the Twins bullpen problems. And with Liriano not seeming at all a good pitcher anymore, pitching might be a serious problem for the Twins this season.

Realistically, if the White Sox were covering every possible hole, they wouldn't have signed Dunn because they already have people who can hit but can't play defense very well. The White Sox have the highest payroll in the team's history. Covering each and every hole, building a deeper building and a better defensive team would have meant not signing Dunn, but I'm sure that's not what you're advocating.

The White Sox will never be able to spend like the Red Sox and Yankees. It would be ridiculous to demand that they should.


Payroll allocation is the weakness. Almost $21 mil going to Peavy and Teahen.

voodoochile
04-14-2011, 07:31 PM
Payroll allocation is the weakness. Almost $21 mil going to Peavy and Teahen.

Teahen maybe you have a point, but he may end up being a nice bat off the bench this season too.

Peavy the jury is still out on. If he comes back and wins 15+ games this year he's worth every penny.

Frater Perdurabo
04-14-2011, 07:36 PM
Hopefully. I really like him. It would be nice to have some homegrown guys make their way up and leave a nice positive impact on the Sox in the next 2-3 years.

Yes, it would be great if there were more homegrown guys making big contributions.

Besides Buehrle, Beckham, Morel and Sale, of course. And the Sox are Alexei's first MLB organization. And the Sox taught Santos to pitch.

Tragg
04-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Yes, it would be great if there were more homegrown guys making big contributions.

Besides Buehrle, Beckham, Morel and Sale, of course. And the Sox are Alexei's first MLB organization. And the Sox taught Santos to pitch.

Well, there could have been: Hudson, Gio and Richard at minimum salaries each (losing only jackson among contributors). The dugout's woeful evaluation of young talent, other than the patently obvious, remains an anchor.

Frater Perdurabo
04-14-2011, 07:46 PM
Well, there could have been: Hudson, Gio and Richard at minimum salaries each (losing only jackson among contributors). The dugout's woeful evaluation of young talent, other than the patently obvious, remains an anchor.

I'd rather have Peavy and Jackson than Hudson, Gio and Richard. Of course, that's all moot with Peavy still on the DL.

I do agree that the dugout is terrible at evaluating and developing talent.

Lip Man 1
04-14-2011, 08:19 PM
T-Dog:

And I'm not saying they should or will but based on GoSox's comments those are the only two ways to "solve" the issue as he sees them in my opinion.

In my opinion the Sox have enough to post another winning season whether that gets them into the postseason depends on things like injuiries and blown games.

If they don't with the payroll they have someone should be held accountable and more than likely that would be Ozzie.

Lip

BringHomeDaBacon
04-14-2011, 08:33 PM
Teahen maybe you have a point, but he may end up being a nice bat off the bench this season too.

Peavy the jury is still out on. If he comes back and wins 15+ games this year he's worth every penny.

Richard managed to win 14 with no offense and without the price tag. That's a lot of cash to fix aformentioned holes. As for Teahen's bat off the bench, who is he going to hit for? I'd rather have defense and speed off the bench.

Daver
04-14-2011, 08:43 PM
I'd rather have Peavy and Jackson than Hudson, Gio and Richard. Of course, that's all moot with Peavy still on the DL.

I do agree that the dugout is terrible at evaluating and developing talent.

You don't develop talent at the MLB level.

voodoochile
04-14-2011, 10:11 PM
Richard managed to win 14 with no offense and without the price tag. That's a lot of cash to fix aformentioned holes. As for Teahen's bat off the bench, who is he going to hit for? I'd rather have defense and speed off the bench.

For one season Richard has looked like a competent ML pitcher. Gio basically the same and Hudson did it for something like 5 starts.

The Sox have Vizquel and Lillibridge to offer speed and defense off the bench and Teahen isn't Konerko slow himself. Having at least one LH bat you can call on off the bench is normally considered a good idea.

I don't get all the hand wringing. Yeah the bullpen has struggled early in the year but some of that was expected. I expect it to settle down as the season progresses and if not I expect KW to address the problem.

DonnieDarko
04-14-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't get all the hand wringing. Yeah the bullpen has struggled early in the year but some of that was expected. I expect it to settle down as the season progresses and if not I expect KW to address the problem.

Would you call me crazy if I said that I expected the bullpen to be subpar? I mean, I didn't imagine that they would be this bad so far, but I expected some roughness. Sheesh.

voodoochile
04-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Would you call me crazy if I said that I didn't expect the bullpen to be bad, or at least not THIS bad?

No, because I didn't either, but I didn't like the idea of Thornton being the closer from day one. I figured it was a default choice because of his experience, but did not expect it to last the season. I didn't expect it to be this bad either, but...

Thornton has had some horrific defense behind him and as much as he is willing to forgive and forget, I as a fan am not so willing to let him shoulder all the blame.

In addition, I think Ozzie made two bad calls the last two blown saves.

First one he should have let Buehrle finish.

Second one he should have let Thornton start the 9th. It would have been the lowest pressure save opportunity a guy can have, 3 run lead and 3 outs to get. For some reason he went with Sale fresh off two innings the night before. By the time Thornton entered the game there was no room for error. You keep putting a guy who is struggling in situations like that things blow up.

I still want to see Santos as the closer. I've wanted that all along. I think that with Santos as closer they have a decent late inning rotation with Sale, Thornton and Crain as setup men with Ohman and Pena as middle relief and LOOGY.

I think if Santos can be the closer the bullpen will be fine long term and I won't worry about early season blips.

But no, I don't think anyone is crazy for being upset or concerned and I did misspeak in my previous post I do understand hand wringing over such an awful start to the season for the bullpen. I'm disappointed myself, but I guess I'm not freaking out, because I half expected it (though again, not this badly this fast).

So go Santos, seize the role and lets get on with winning the division, or at least not blowing many more games in April...

A. Cavatica
04-15-2011, 05:35 AM
For one season Richard has looked like a competent ML pitcher. Gio basically the same and Hudson did it for something like 5 starts.

Hudson's has 18 major league starts to date, and he's put up a 2.69 ERA and a 1.055 WHIP while striking out 7.9 per 9 innings. Looks like a competent ML pitcher to me, certainly more competent than Richard or Gio.

voodoochile
04-15-2011, 10:08 AM
Hudson's has 18 major league starts to date, and he's put up a 2.69 ERA and a 1.055 WHIP while striking out 7.9 per 9 innings. Looks like a competent ML pitcher to me, certainly more competent than Richard or Gio.

I said he's looked like a ML pitcher for about like 5 starts. I didn't count this year and in reality it was 11 he had for Arizona last year which is what I was counting. Perhaps the trend continues this year. I wish him all the best.

Edit: In addition, his game log is hardly a who's who of offensive juggernauts...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/30376/year/2010/daniel-hudson

Hitmen77
04-15-2011, 11:43 AM
T-Dog:

And I'm not saying they should or will but based on GoSox's comments those are the only two ways to "solve" the issue as he sees them in my opinion.

In my opinion the Sox have enough to post another winning season whether that gets them into the postseason depends on things like injuiries and blown games.

If they don't with the payroll they have someone should be held accountable and more than likely that would be Ozzie.

Lip

As far as the Sox developing enough of their own talent goes, I don't expect their farm system to automatically crank out a bona fide closer. In fact, they've had some recent success in bringing up players from within: Santos, Morel (who is holding his own), Beckham, Hudson (who we used to get Jackson). The problem right now is that the farm system seems to be so barren right now that their only option for bullpen help is someone who is so mediocre (Gray) that they're apparently afraid to put in him into any games in the week that he's been here. I'm not expecting a closer to magically appear, but it would be nice if we could at least come up with one guy right now who isn't going to pour gas onto the fire.

IMO, the Sox bullpen should be good enough to keep this team in contention. Especially if Peavy comes back and Humber shows that he is serviceable. In that case, Santos, Sale, Crain, Thornton, Humber, Ohman (strictly as a LOOGY) and Pena should be able to avoid repeated meltdowns....it actually should be halfway decent.

What's caused this current ****storm is the lousy defense and mismanaging of the bullpen on top of struggling pitchers in this start to the season. Costly errors have sent an already struggling bullpen over the edge. Ozzie is "saving" Buehrle when he's on 2-hit cruise control and the bullpen desperately needs a break:scratch:, Sale throws 34 pitches and lets bring him in the next afternoon because the 20 yr old says he's ready to pitch:scratch:, etc.

Closers aren't a dime a dozen, so I'm not surprised that the Sox don't have one and I'm not chalking that up to gross negligence on their management's part. However, they should have been more realistic about Thornton's ability to close. A 34 yr old left hander who doesn't have much variety of pitches - he's thrived as a set up guy, but I don't care how tough he is mentally, he's just not a good candidate to close. Santos is probably our best hope for a closer. Sale could eventually do it, but we may need to give the rookie some time before he's ready.

The good news is that the Sox aren't behind who most likely will be competing against them for a division title. When I look at last April, it wasn't so much the W-L record it was that they were already 6 games behind the Twins by the 3rd week of April. It's tough when a team is struggling and already in a big hole. Lets just hope that the bullpen fiasco can be steadied, that the offense continues to do it's job and that our starters pitch well.

VMSNS
04-15-2011, 03:24 PM
Just read on MLBTR that Buster Olney considers the White Sox to be the early frontrunners to land Heath Bell, should San Diego fall out of contention.

Hitmen77
04-15-2011, 04:15 PM
Just read on MLBTR that Buster Olney considers the White Sox to be the early frontrunners to land Heath Bell, should San Diego fall out of contention.

Bell is making $7.5M this year. After saying they are pretty much at their salary limit, I find it hard to believe that the Sox would take on that much salary.

.....of course, if we're talking about a late July trade, they'd only be on the hook for a few million at that point. But even so, do we have enough talent in our system available to make such a trade?

Fenway
04-15-2011, 04:35 PM
Give Bobby Jenks credit

WEEI tried to bait him with when they played the Ozzie post game tirade..

Bobby said - I am only worried about Boston now.

KMcMahon817
04-15-2011, 04:38 PM
Give Bobby Jenks credit

WEEI tried to bait him with when they played the Ozzie post game tirade..

Bobby said - I am only worried about Boston now.

Who cares?

Jim Shorts
04-15-2011, 04:56 PM
Give Bobby Jenks credit

WEEI tried to bait him with when they played the Ozzie post game tirade..

Bobby said - I am only worried about Boston now.



Credit for obeying Tito's orders? GMAB

Fenway
04-15-2011, 05:01 PM
Credit for obeying Tito's orders? GMAB

Tito would love to have Ozzie's problem....at least you have leads to protect :?:

sunofgold
04-15-2011, 05:02 PM
I would trade Vicideo or Sale as part of a package to get Bell. Both are probably going to be good players, but I am focused on this year. That would be "all-in" to me. We have a bunch of decent set-up guys. If we had a closer like Bell we could be 11-1 right now.

Our offense and starting pitching rocks right now. Tigers and Twins look weaker this year. We would be in great shape to win this division if we had a reliable closer.

delben91
04-15-2011, 05:23 PM
I would trade Vicideo or Sale as part of a package to get Bell. Both are probably going to be good players, but I am focused on this year. That would be "all-in" to me. We have a bunch of decent set-up guys. If we had a closer like Bell we could be 11-1 right now.

Our offense and starting pitching rocks right now. Tigers and Twins look weaker this year. We would be in great shape to win this division if we had a reliable closer.

Why would SD want to trade Bell in April?

soxnut1018
04-15-2011, 05:34 PM
I would trade Vicideo or Sale as part of a package to get Bell. Both are probably going to be good players, but I am focused on this year. That would be "all-in" to me. We have a bunch of decent set-up guys. If we had a closer like Bell we could be 11-1 right now.

No.

guillensdisciple
04-15-2011, 06:40 PM
Ozzie backtracked today stating we have the best bullpen 4 ever.

Oyyy, he's definitely all in.

soltrain21
04-15-2011, 06:53 PM
Ozzie backtracked today stating we have the best bullpen 4 ever.

Oyyy, he's definitely all in.

He also said if we don't like how we handle the bullpen then go get a hot dog and not watch the game.

Eye roll.

Tragg
04-15-2011, 09:16 PM
I'd rather have Peavy and Jackson than Hudson, Gio and Richard. Of course, that's all moot with Peavy still on the DL.

I do agree that the dugout is terrible at evaluating and developing talent.
I wouldn't, if for no other reason that we'd have another 20-30 mill to spend. (not to mention that Jackson was basically a rent).
I'm worried about Sale...not his ability, but the dugout wearing him out in when we'll need him in the rotation beginning next year.

voodoochile
04-15-2011, 10:43 PM
I wouldn't, if for no other reason that we'd have another 20-30 mill to spend. (not to mention that Jackson was basically a rent).
I'm worried about Sale...not his ability, but the dugout wearing him out in when we'll need him in the rotation beginning next year.

Maybe and maybe we wouldn't have Dunn. You really think the Sox are going to go "All In" and by their own admission blow their own budget projections without Jackson and Peavy headlining the rotation?

A. Cavatica
04-16-2011, 09:30 AM
He also said if we don't like how we handle the bullpen then go get a hot dog and not watch the game.

Eye roll.

I'm down with that. I like a good hot dog better than a bad ballgame.

sox1970
04-17-2011, 10:26 AM
Matt Capps is the new Twins closer. If Joe Nathan can lose his job this early in the season, then Thornton can too.

TDog
04-17-2011, 11:29 AM
Matt Capps is the new Twins closer. If Joe Nathan can lose his job this early in the season, then Thornton can too.

How do you know Thornton didn't lose his job as closer before the last game of the A's series? Sale came in to get the save despite pitching two innings the night before. From that alone, you would assume Sale was the closer. Thornton was credited with the blown save, but he was the third pitcher who came in to try to save the game.

SBSoxFan
04-20-2011, 08:52 PM
Meanwhile, I see that Jose Contreras is 4/4 in saves as well as Kyle Farnsworth. The latter is now a whopping 30/66 in his career! :o:

This sure is a strange game.

sox1970
04-20-2011, 09:08 PM
Meanwhile, I see that Jose Contreras is 4/4 in saves as well as Kyle Farnsworth. The latter is now a whopping 30/66 in his career! :o:

This sure is a strange game.

Misleading stat for setup guys. Means nothing.