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Hitmen77
04-06-2011, 06:42 PM
Fifty years ago this month, the American League opened the 1961 season with, for the first time, 10 teams and a 162 game schedule. The NL followed suit the following year.

The two new teams were the Los Angeles Angels and the Washington Senators. The new Senators replaced the original Senators who moved to Minnesota for the '61 season.

Washington's first game was on 4/10/61 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WS2/WS2196104100.shtml) hosting the White Sox. The Angels first game was on 4/11/61 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL196104110.shtml) at Baltimore and their first home game was on 4/27/61 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAA/LAA196104270.shtml) at Wrigley Field in Los Angeles.

After playing their 1st season at Wrigley, the Angels played at Dodger Stadium as a temporary tenant for the next 4 seasons before moving to their current home in Anaheim in 1966. The expansion Senators lasted in Washington for 11 seasons before moving to Texas in '72.

Over the years, a total of 14 expansion teams have been added to MLB. Here is a summary of how they fared:

Angels ('61): 2002 WS Champs
Senators ('61): Moved to Texas in '72, 2010 AL Champs
Mets ('62): '69 and '86 WS Champs. '73 and '00 NL Champs
Astros ('62): '05 NL Champs (changed name to Astros in '65)
Padres ('69): '84 and '98 NL Champs
Expos ('69): No pennants, moved to Washington in '05
Pilots ('69): Moved to Milwaukee (Brewers) in '70 after only one season. '82 AL Champs. switched to NL in 1998
Royals ('69): '80 AL Champs, '85 WS Champs
Blue Jays ('77): '92 and '93 WS Champs
Mariners ('77): No pennants
Marlins ('93): '97 and '03 WS Champs
Rockies ('93): '07 NL Champs
Diamondbacks ('98): '01 WS Champs
Rays ('98): '08 AL Champs

gobears1987
04-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I count only 9 WS championships among the 14 expansion teams?

Lamp81
04-06-2011, 07:14 PM
I never understood why they didn't tell Griffith, that if he wanted to move to Minnesota, you take the expansion team, and the Senators will stay in Washington. It isn't like the Cleveland Browns, where the team history stayed. The Twins have the 1st Senators history and the Rangers have the 2nd.

Lip Man 1
04-06-2011, 07:26 PM
Hitmen:

That 4/10 Sox at Washington game will be coming up in a few days in the This Date In Sox History section. Also I have the WGN-TV footage of the Leadoff Man from that day, includes commericals for Aqua Velva and Hamms Beer. That's the day where JFK threw out the first ball and it was caught by Jim Rivera.

Lip

Hitmen77
04-07-2011, 12:28 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I count only 9 WS championships among the 14 expansion teams?

I guess that's right.

That does sound below average. But, at least in the old days, it took a while for expansion teams to build up beyond mediocrity. So, it's hard for me to tell if 9 titles is much below what should be expected. It hasn't been true in more recent years with the Marlins winning it all in their 5th season and the D-Backs winning it all in their 4th season.

12 of the 14 expansion teams do have pennants though. The Mariners missed a great chance in the late 90s/early 00s when they lost 3 ALCSs. The Expos lost the deciding game 5 of the 1981 NLCS (best of 5 series) and had their '94 season wiped out.

TDog
04-07-2011, 12:59 AM
I guess that's right.

That does sound below average. But, at least in the old days, it took a while for expansion teams to build up beyond mediocrity. So, it's hard for me to tell if 9 titles is much below what should be expected. It hasn't been true in more recent years with the Marlins winning it all in their 5th season and the D-Backs winning it all in their 4th season.

12 of the 14 expansion teams do have pennants though. The Mariners missed a great chance in the late 90s/early 00s when they lost 3 ALCSs. The Expos lost the deciding game 5 of the 1981 NLCS (best of 5 series) and had their '94 season wiped out.

Getting to the World Series is a huge deal, though. World Series teams aren't tournament finalists, but pennant winners. It is ironic, though, that three expansion teams, the Mets, Padres and Marlins, got to the World Series after seeming dead to beat down the heavily favored team, which, for more than a generation now, has been the charter major league team that has suffered the longest championship drought.

asindc
04-07-2011, 09:41 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I count only 9 WS championships among the 14 expansion teams?

Only?

I guess that's right.

That does sound below average. But, at least in the old days, it took a while for expansion teams to build up beyond mediocrity. So, it's hard for me to tell if 9 titles is much below what should be expected. It hasn't been true in more recent years with the Marlins winning it all in their 5th season and the D-Backs winning it all in their 4th season.

12 of the 14 expansion teams do have pennants though. The Mariners missed a great chance in the late 90s/early 00s when they lost 3 ALCSs. The Expos lost the deciding game 5 of the 1981 NLCS (best of 5 series) and had their '94 season wiped out.

I don't know what would be considered average, but the Marlins' two WS championships in their short history and the Mets' winning two WS within 25 years are aberrations in my mind, just as Wash./Texas not having won a pennant in 49 years is an aberration.

gobears1987
04-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Only?



I don't know what would be considered average, but the Marlins' two WS championships in their short history and the Mets' winning two WS within 25 years are aberrations in my mind, just as Wash./Texas not having won a pennant in 49 years is an aberration.

The expansion teams (14 of 30) represent nearly half the league. Now I wouldn't expect them to have won 25 during that period as the expansions have been added a couple at a time over decades. However, it would not be unreasonable to expect in the neighborhood of 15.

Hitmen77
04-07-2011, 11:40 AM
Getting to the World Series is a huge deal, though. World Series teams aren't tournament finalists, but pennant winners. It is ironic, though, that three expansion teams, the Mets, Padres and Marlins, got to the World Series after seeming dead to beat down the heavily favored team, which, for more than a generation now, has been the charter major league team that has suffered the longest championship drought.

I agree that winning a pennant is a big deal. Having 12 of 14 of those teams winning at least one pennant is

The expansion teams (14 of 30) represent nearly half the league. Now I wouldn't expect them to have won 25 during that period as the expansions have been added a couple at a time over decades. However, it would not be unreasonable to expect in the neighborhood of 15.

The two 1998 expansion teams have each won 1 pennant and one of them was a WS title. That's not bad over 13 years and considering it typically takes an expansion team a few years at best to become competitive.

For two 1993 teams, one team has won a pennant and the other has won 2 WS titles. Again, not bad for that timeframe.

The Blue Jays' two WS titles are the only WS appearances for the two '77 teams. Maybe that's within range of what's expected (expect that the 2 titles were clustered back to back and only for Toronto). The Mariners blew their chance with the great team they had in the late 90s.

The four 1969 teams have been around for more than 40 years now and only have 1 WS title among them ('85 Royals) to show for it. That's not very impressive at all. KC has 2 total pennants, Padres have 2 pennants, and the Brewers have one. The pennant-less Expos/Nats had their best chance taken away from them in 1994 and the franchise spiraled downward after that. The Royals haven't even been to the playoffs since '85 and the Brewers have had one playoff appearance since '82.

Among the '61/'62 teams, only the Mets have had an impressive title success rate: 4 pennants and two of those being WS titles. The Angels, Astros, and Rangers had many years of frustration before winning their one and only pennants in 2002, 2005, and 2010, respectively. Only the '02 Angels won the WS among that group. These 4 teams overall do have their fair share of playoff appearances, however.

Lamp81
04-07-2011, 01:25 PM
I agree that winning a pennant is a big deal. Having 12 of 14 of those teams winning at least one pennant is



The two 1998 expansion teams have each won 1 pennant and one of them was a WS title. That's not bad over 13 years and considering it typically takes an expansion team a few years at best to become competitive.

For two 1993 teams, one team has won a pennant and the other has won 2 WS titles. Again, not bad for that timeframe.

The Blue Jays' two WS titles are the only WS appearances for the two '77 teams. Maybe that's within range of what's expected (expect that the 2 titles were clustered back to back and only for Toronto). The Mariners blew their chance with the great team they had in the late 90s.

The four 1969 teams have been around for more than 40 years now and only have 1 WS title among them ('85 Royals) to show for it. That's not very impressive at all. KC has 2 total pennants, Padres have 2 pennants, and the Brewers have one. The pennant-less Expos/Nats had their best chance taken away from them in 1994 and the franchise spiraled downward after that. The Royals haven't even been to the playoffs since '85 and the Brewers have had one playoff appearance since '82.

Among the '61/'62 teams, only the Mets have had an impressive title success rate: 4 pennants and two of those being WS titles. The Angels, Astros, and Rangers had many years of frustration before winning their one and only pennants in 2002, 2005, and 2010, respectively. Only the '02 Angels won the WS among that group. These 4 teams overall do have their fair share of playoff appearances, however.

The Mariners had a better chance at a Pennant in 2001, when they set a record for wins in a season.

The Royals should have 0 WS titles, as they should have lost game 6 in 1985, too bad Denkinger wasn't as classy as Jim Joyce when he blew a history making call.

Hitmen77
04-07-2011, 05:48 PM
In comparison, of the original 16 franchises, only 2 have not won a WS title in the expansion era. The 14 other teams have won at least 1 title since 1979.

Only 1 has not won a pennant in that time. The 15 other teams have won at least 1 pennant since '79.

TommyJohn
04-07-2011, 08:23 PM
The Mariners had a better chance at a Pennant in 2001, when they set a record for wins in a season.

The Royals should have 0 WS titles, as they should have lost game 6 in 1985, too bad Denkinger wasn't as classy as Jim Joyce when he blew a history making call.


*sigh* I love crap like this. And Denkinger's family had to be moed to a secure location because of death threats, so I would say he's been pretty classy considering that people destroyed his life.

And since the Cardinals let themselves come all unraveled after that call, they clearly didn't deserve to win. **** them.

TheVulture
04-07-2011, 10:30 PM
Over the years, a total of 14 expansion teams have been added to MLB. Here is a summary of how they fared:

Angels ('61): 2002 WS Champs
Senators ('61): Moved to Texas in '72, 2010 AL Champs
Mets ('62): '69 and '86 WS Champs. '73 and '00 NL Champs
Astros ('62): '05 NL Champs (changed name to Astros in '65)
Padres ('69): '84 and '98 NL Champs
Expos ('69): No pennants, moved to Washington in '05
Pilots ('69): Moved to Milwaukee (Brewers) in '70 after only one season. '82 AL Champs. switched to NL in 1998
Royals ('69): '80 AL Champs, '85 WS Champs
Blue Jays ('77): '92 and '93 WS Champs
Mariners ('77): No pennants
Marlins ('93): '97 and '03 WS Champs
Rockies ('93): '07 NL Champs
Diamondbacks ('98): '01 WS Champs
Rays ('98): '08 AL Champs

Hmm...can't help but notice the Rays were the fourth fastest expansion team to win a pennant.

Lamp81
04-07-2011, 11:33 PM
*sigh* I love crap like this. And Denkinger's family had to be moed to a secure location because of death threats, so I would say he's been pretty classy considering that people destroyed his life.

And since the Cardinals let themselves come all unraveled after that call, they clearly didn't deserve to win. **** them.

Death threats and going after family are never cool.

That being said, if the White Sox were screwed like the Cardinals were, I'd still be fuming, 26 years later. The Cardinals did deserve to win the '85 World Series just as Galarraga deserved that Perfect Game last year.

SI1020
04-08-2011, 09:33 AM
Death threats and going after family are never cool.

That being said, if the White Sox were screwed like the Cardinals were, I'd still be fuming, 26 years later. The Cardinals did deserve to win the '85 World Series just as Galarraga deserved that Perfect Game last year. Life is unfair. Denkinger blew the call and then the Cardinals melted down, like the Cubs did in the Bartman game. Jack Clark missed a pop foul and the usually reliable Darrell Porter had a passed ball. The Cardinals got a bad break but I don't blame Denkinger. The 6th game was still very winnable, and in the end it's hard to win a WS when your team gets 40 hits in 7 games. Don't forget that in the 4th inning of the 6th game Frank White of the Royals was called out after he had apparently stolen 2nd base. Until computers or robots completely replace umpires the game will not be called perfectly. The blame game is very popular these days. Most times when things don't go your way you only need to go to the nearest mirror to find who is at fault.

WhiteSoxJunkie
04-09-2011, 10:07 PM
Which team should be considered the most successful expansion team? My vote would have to be the Mets.

Hunker down
04-10-2011, 09:23 AM
In comparison, of the original 16 franchises, only 2 have not won a WS title in the expansion era. The 14 other teams have won at least 1 title since 1979.

Only 1 has not won a pennant in that time. The 15 other teams have won at least 1 pennant since '79.

Who's the one team that hasn't won a pennant in that time?:D:

ewokpelts
04-11-2011, 10:06 AM
I never understood why they didn't tell Griffith, that if he wanted to move to Minnesota, you take the expansion team, and the Senators will stay in Washington. It isn't like the Cleveland Browns, where the team history stayed. The Twins have the 1st Senators history and the Rangers have the 2nd.he wanted to keep his farm system, most likely

Railsplitter
04-11-2011, 10:28 AM
Which team should be considered the most successful expansion team? My vote would have to be the Mets.

Mine too. In fact, the Mets won the World series before the Phillies did. (1969 for Mets vs !980 for Phillies)

Hitmen77
04-22-2011, 10:29 AM
Which team should be considered the most successful expansion team? My vote would have to be the Mets.

Overall, yes. They've won 4 pennants while the only other expansion teams to even win 2 are Florida and Toronto.

It's hard to believe now, given their many years near the bottom of the AL, but the Royals were one of the most successful expansion teams in their 1st 20 years of existence. They had several division titles beginning in their 8th season (1976) and they won 2 pennants and 1 WS during this time.

In the last 10 or 15 years, the Angles have been the most consistently good (in terms of W-L record, division titles), but they still only got 1 pennant/WS title while the Marlins have 2 WS titles (in between some mediocre seasons).

Here's an interesting fact: There has never been a World Series between two expansion teams. I found that surprising. With "expansion" teams making up almost half of the league, you wouldn't think there's still be a huge difference in their pennant success vs. the success of the original 16 teams.

SI1020
04-22-2011, 10:35 AM
Overall, yes. They've won 4 WS titles while the only other expansion teams to even win 2 are Florida and Toronto.
The Mets won the WS in 1969 and 1986. They lost in 1973 and 2000. Perhaps you meant that they were in 4 WS.

Hitmen77
04-22-2011, 10:38 AM
The Mets won the WS in 1969 and 1986. They lost in 1973 and 2000. Perhaps you meant that were in 4 WS.

Oops.....yes, I meant they won 4 pennants while the next most among expansion teams is 2 (Fla and Tor). :redface:

I'll fix my post.

Zakath
04-22-2011, 12:25 PM
In comparison, of the original 16 franchises, only 2 have not won a WS title in the expansion era. The 14 other teams have won at least 1 title since 1979.

Only 1 has not won a pennant in that time. The 15 other teams have won at least 1 pennant since '79.

To tabulate it:
Braves (moved from Boston to Milwaukee in 1953, moved to Atlanta in 1966) - '95 WS Champs; '91, '92, '96, '99 NL Champs
Cubs - :scratch::rolling:
Reds - '75, '76, '90 WS Champs; '61, '70, '72 NL Champs
Dodgers (moved from Brooklyn to Los Angeles in 1958) - '63, '65, '81, '88 WS Champs; '66, '74, '77, '78 NL Champs
Phillies - '80, '08 WS Champs; '83, '93, '09 NL Champs
Pirates - '71, '79 WS Champs
Cardinals - '64, '67, '82, '06 WS Champs; '68, '85, '87, '04 NL Champs
Giants - (moved from New York to San Francisco in 1958) - '10 WS Champs; '62, '89, '02 NL Champs

Orioles (moved from St. Louis to Baltimore in 1954) - '66, '70, '83 WS Champs; '69, '71, '79 AL Champs
Red Sox - '04, '07 WS Champs; '67, '75, '86 AL Champs
White Sox - '05 WS Champs
Indians - '95, '97 AL Champs
Tigers - '68, '84 WS Champs; '06 AL Champs
Twins - '87, '91 WS Champs; '65 AL Champs
Athletics (moved from Philadelphia to Kansas City in 1955, moved to Oakland in 1968) - '72, '73, '74, '89 WS Champs; '88, '90 AL Champs
Yankees - '61, '62, '77, '78, '79, '96, '98, '99, '00, '09 WS Champs; '63, '64, '76, '81, '01, '03 AL Champs

TommyJohn
04-22-2011, 04:00 PM
Overall, yes. They've won 4 pennants while the only other expansion teams to even win 2 are Florida and Toronto.

It's hard to believe now, given their many years near the bottom of the AL, but the Royals were one of the most successful expansion teams in their 1st 20 years of existence. They had several division titles beginning in their 8th season (1976) and they won 2 pennants and 1 WS during this time.

In the last 10 or 15 years, the Angles have been the most consistently good (in terms of W-L record, division titles), but they still only got 1 pennant/WS title while the Marlins have 2 WS titles (in between some mediocre seasons).

Here's an interesting fact: There has never been a World Series between two expansion teams. I found that surprising. With "expansion" teams making up almost half of the league, you wouldn't think there's still be a huge difference in their pennant success vs. the success of the original 16 teams.

That's really funny. You'd think with as long as expansion teams have been around, two of them would have met in the Series by now. Another fun fact: The last time two first time participants played each other in the series was 1906, when the White Sox met the Cubs. Now the only possble way that could happen again is if the Seattle Mariners meet the Washington Nationals.

Fenway
04-22-2011, 04:34 PM
I never understood why they didn't tell Griffith, that if he wanted to move to Minnesota, you take the expansion team, and the Senators will stay in Washington. It isn't like the Cleveland Browns, where the team history stayed. The Twins have the 1st Senators history and the Rangers have the 2nd.

It was 1961

Calvin Griffith liked Minneapolis for one reason - better demographics than DC

His brother-in-law was the president of the AL (Joe Cronin)

The US Government was building him and the Redskins a new stadium but he wanted out of DC - so Cronin kept Congress happy with an expansion team.

Southsider101
04-22-2011, 10:07 PM
When talking about MLB expansion we should never forget the role of Branch Rickey and his Continental League which, although a paper league, was formed in 1959 and forced expansion to a number of cities.

Zakath
04-23-2011, 11:57 AM
In the last 10 years, 7 of the World Series have had an expansion team in them (the exceptions being 2004 [Red Sox-Cardinals], 2006 [Cardinals-Tigers], and 2009 [Yankees-Phillies]). However, "original 16" teams have won the last 7 World Series titles.

Fenway
04-23-2011, 12:22 PM
SABR looked at this 2 years ago....

LA and Washington were given EIGHT DAYS from they time they were awarded a team to hire a front office before the draft.

http://sabr.org/convention/archives/archive/sabr39/presentations/103-mis-management-101-the-american-league-expansion-of-1961


These teams were born in late 1960 and were playing in April......amazing

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1071960/index.htm


Montreal was given less than a year when they were awarded a team in 1968..... then the NL was totally unaware of the stadium that was planned until Warren Giles went up to visit.

http://randytreadway.com/EX108_Expo_Stadium.jpg

This article in SI from 68 is a great read
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081474/index.htm


Parc Jarry was built in less than 7 months to replace Autostade

Southsider101
04-23-2011, 08:01 PM
The 1968 SI piece is a wonderful read. Hard to believe, today, that Montreal considered itself a serious contender for an NFL team.

Fenway
04-24-2011, 02:15 PM
The 1968 SI piece is a wonderful read. Hard to believe, today, that Montreal considered itself a serious contender for an NFL team.

In 1968 Montreal thought they could do anything. Drapeau would soon land the Olympics which was a disaster the city and province have still not recovered from. It allowed the separatists to gain power and start make the use of English forbidden. Major companies fled to Toronto....as did most anglophones.

FloridaTigers
04-24-2011, 09:54 PM
Makes you wonder how many more World Series titles the "original 16" would have if not for expansion...

Hitmen77
04-25-2011, 11:23 AM
To tabulate it:
Braves (moved from Boston to Milwaukee in 1953, moved to Atlanta in 1966) - '95 WS Champs; '91, '92, '96, '99 NL Champs
Cubs - :scratch::rolling:
Reds - '75, '76, '90 WS Champs; '61, '70, '72 NL Champs
Dodgers (moved from Brooklyn to Los Angeles in 1958) - '63, '65, '81, '88 WS Champs; '66, '74, '77, '78 NL Champs
Phillies - '80, '08 WS Champs; '83, '93, '09 NL Champs
Pirates - '71, '79 WS Champs
Cardinals - '64, '67, '82, '06 WS Champs; '68, '85, '87, '04 NL Champs
Giants - (moved from New York to San Francisco in 1958) - '10 WS Champs; '62, '89, '02 NL Champs

Orioles (moved from St. Louis to Baltimore in 1954) - '66, '70, '83 WS Champs; '69, '71, '79 AL Champs
Red Sox - '04, '07 WS Champs; '67, '75, '86 AL Champs
White Sox - '05 WS Champs
Indians - '95, '97 AL Champs
Tigers - '68, '84 WS Champs; '06 AL Champs
Twins - '87, '91 WS Champs; '65 AL Champs
Athletics (moved from Philadelphia to Kansas City in 1955, moved to Oakland in 1968) - '72, '73, '74, '89 WS Champs; '88, '90 AL Champs
Yankees - '61, '62, '77, '78, '79, '96, '98, '99, '00, '09 WS Champs; '63, '64, '76, '81, '01, '03 AL Champs

Great summary. The only thing I'll add (since you listed the other franchise moves) is that the Twins moved from Washington to Minnesota in 1961.

Looking at this list, it's sad that the Sox have one of the worst pennant/WS title records among the original 16 teams over the past 50 years. At least we're not the Cubs. I'll also take our 1 WS title over Cleveland's 2 pennants with no title.

Hitmen77
04-25-2011, 11:33 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I count only 9 WS championships among the 14 expansion teams?

Makes you wonder how many more World Series titles the "original 16" would have if not for expansion...

Nine? :dunno:

For the Sox, their missing the playoffs or failing to advance was usually at the hands of another "original" team: A's in '72 and '90, Orioles in '83, in recent years, the AL Central the only expansion team is the Royals and they haven't won anything since the AL Central was formed.

The Sox did lose to expansion teams in the playoffs in 1993 (Toronto), 2000 (Seattle), and 2008 (Tampa Bay).