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View Full Version : So utterly sick of Royce Clayton!


Foulke You
07-05-2002, 06:26 PM
I have had it watching this guy trotted out every day. I know the dead horse is severely beaten but I have to vent. Here goes:

ROYCE'S OFFENSE- The guy is a National League punch and judy reject hitter. He has no patience or plate discipline at all. Yesterday, from my perch in section 159, I watched Royce make an out on 1 pitch leading off an inning in one AB and strike out on 3 pitches in the next at bat (3 home run cuts) then ground out weakly to lead off the bottom of the 9th. He got 4 homers in April and immediately thought he was A-Rod and has been swinging for the fences ever since. His current "hot streak" has been more attributed to ducksnorts and infield singles then really making solid contact with the ball and working counts. This is how Royce hits. He's not getting any better. He won't get any better.

ROYCE'S DEFENSE- Royce is the most overrated defensive SS in the history of the White Sox. Royce has no range going to his right because he's contantly playing up the middle. How many weakly hit grounders do we see go right between Royce and Valentin? It's one thing to play up the middle if you have good range going to your right but Royce doesn't. His arm is weak. Much weaker then Valentin's. How many would be double plays do we see where the runner is safe at 1st because of a half assed Royce Clayton lollipop throw rather than a Valentin cannon throw? There was a reason the Sox lead the AL in DPs turned in 2000 and that reason was Valentin playing SS every day. In addition to all of this we've seen Royce start flubbing some routine plays recently (Remember Friday against the Flubs?)


So Royce doesn't hit and isn't the defensive savior he's cracked up to be yet he keeps playing even though Manuel said he was going to bench him. Graffanino has the 4th best batting avg. on the team and is always on base doing things to help us win yet he rots on the bench because of Royce. Crede scalds the ball in AAA yet he rots in Charlotte because of Royce. Valentin struggles with defense because he's a SS playing 3B because of Royce. When will we get rid of this useless excuse of a SS and move on. Cut your friggin' losses on the guy because he's doing nothing but hurting the team and making fans like me go insane!

:hitless
Behold! The albatross around the neck of your 2002 White Sox!

ISUSoxfan
07-05-2002, 07:24 PM
I agree, mostly.

FarmerAndy
07-05-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You

Crede scalds the ball in AAA yet he rots in Charlotte because of Royce. Valentin struggles with defense because he's a SS playing 3B because of Royce.

I'm not here to defend Royce, but you are wrong about Valentin. Valentin struggles with defense no matter what position he is at. He has a great arm, but his glove stinks. It not Royce's fault that Jose can't field a ball.

It's also not Royce's fault that Crede isn't here. Royce isn't the GM or the manager. Plus, Royce is a shortstop, Crede is a 3rd baseman. Valentin is the one who stinks it up in the field, he's the odd man out. If he didn't stink so bad at SS, we wouldn't have attempted to upgrade the position (I'm not saying we succeded in doing so).

Royce will be gone at the end of the year, but we still need a shortstop. Valentin doesn't cut the mustard there, and we need to put Crede at third. We have to many DH's, so I don't see Valentin as a good fit for the future of this club either.

Are there any good shortstops that will be available next year? Anybody?

Chisoxfn
07-05-2002, 09:30 PM
Here's an idea. Lets acquire Wilson Betemeit from the Atlanta Braves. They have a very deep middle infield and Wilson is basically stuck in AAA. Why not deal them someone that can help them during the stretch run(maybe Liefer and someone else) and then let him start. As far as I'm concerned we are going to stink with either Jose or Royce at shorstop cause neither of them are true solutions although Royce is better then Jose cause at least he can do one thing well and thats suck up anything that gets in his way. With Jose he can hit during short streaks and then he goes back to striking out dang near every at bat or just getting weak contact on pop ups and grounders that he pulls towards first.

Lets get ourselves an infield of Crede and an up and coming young shortstop. KW or whoever our gm is needs to start scouring other farm systems who have infielders at the big league level so they are willing and can afford to deal some good ones at the minor league level.

The only guy we have that can really play short in the minors with any shot of making it to the big show is Guillermo Reyes(Did I get that name right?)

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
The only guy we have that can really play short in the minors with any shot of making it to the big show is Guillermo Reyes(Did I get that name right?)

Hummel is going to be the SS, he'll get his chance to show if he can handle it.

Chisoxfn
07-05-2002, 09:53 PM
Personally I don't believe that Hummel has the arm or the range to play shortstop. I believe odds are he'll be our future 2nd baseman. Of course he needs to figure out how to hit again cause he's really having a down year. I haven't seen enough out or Harris to make me believe he can do it at 2nd, but to me offensively and defensively Reyes is the guy we have capable of handling short(Hummel would be similar to having Jose out there)

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Personally I don't believe that Hummel has the arm or the range to play shortstop. I believe odds are he'll be our future 2nd baseman. Of course he needs to figure out how to hit again cause he's really having a down year. I haven't seen enough out or Harris to make me believe he can do it at 2nd, but to me offensively and defensively Reyes is the guy we have capable of handling short(Hummel would be similar to having Jose out there)

Whether we like it or not, he'll be there. As a few of our minor league experts have pointed out, he's really wokring on his "D". His hitting will be there.

Daver
07-05-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Personally I don't believe that Hummel has the arm or the range to play shortstop. I believe odds are he'll be our future 2nd baseman. Of course he needs to figure out how to hit again cause he's really having a down year. I haven't seen enough out or Harris to make me believe he can do it at 2nd, but to me offensively and defensively Reyes is the guy we have capable of handling short(Hummel would be similar to having Jose out there)

I take it you have seen a lot more games played by Hummell than I have,but from what I have seen he can play SS.

cornball
07-05-2002, 10:17 PM
Clayton may not be the answer, however neither is Valentin. The short term answer lies outside the organization, i though Atlanta had a good prospect stuck behind Fucal

ISUSoxfan
07-05-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Whether we like it or not, he'll be there. As a few of our minor league experts have pointed out, he's really wokring on his "D". His hitting will be there.
That sounds very Claytonesque.

Foulke You
07-05-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Clayton may not be the answer, however neither is Valentin. The short term answer lies outside the organization, i though Atlanta had a good prospect stuck behind Fucal

In the short term Valentin at SS and either Crede or Graffanino at 3B would be infinitely better than Clayton. Valentin plays his @$$ off with pure guts and determination and has done more to help the Sox win than a dozen Royce's combined. Nobody can ever convince me that the team would be worse off with Valentin than Clayton. Royce Clayton is the poster child for everything that is wrong with the 2002 White Sox.

ISUSoxfan
07-05-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


In the short term Valentin at SS and either Crede or Graffanino at 3B would be infinitely better than Clayton. Valentin plays his @$$ off with pure guts and determination and has done more to help the Sox win than a dozen Royce's combined.
I agree 100%, and I really wish more people could see this, JM and KW to name 2 of them.

Chisoxfn
07-05-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Clayton may not be the answer, however neither is Valentin. The short term answer lies outside the organization, i though Atlanta had a good prospect stuck behind Fucal

Yep, his name is Wilson Betemeit and he's very young(20 or 21)

FanOf14
07-05-2002, 10:36 PM
Great post Foulke You. Valentin does make errors. If Clayton tried to get to a few more of the balls hit in his direction, he might have a few more errors, but he would also improve his defense - that is my biggest problem with Clayton. He gets to everything hit right at him, but has such little range other than that. I wish Clayton had the range and determination at short that Valentin showed us in 2000. At least then I could stomach his inability to bat for the first half of a season.

Tragg
07-05-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I have had it watching this guy trotted out every day. I know the dead horse is severely beaten but I have to vent. Here goes....Behold! The albatross around the neck of your 2002 White Sox!

You are absolutely right. The guy is a horrible baseball player. Valentin, however isn't the answer. A yoiung shortstop is. We should have or still should trade for one with a team with an excess of positional players (like Seattle this time last year) in return for some of our young pitchers. Oh, that's right, we already used that surplus on Todd Ritchie.

baggio202
07-05-2002, 11:06 PM
if last night didnt convince the last of the clayton backers that he just sux on SS then there is no hope..when randall simon hit a routine grounder to short to in the 8th im thinking..whew..got out of that one...the camera pans to SS and im like...where the hell is clayton!?!?!?!...slowly meandering into the picture is royce...diving for a routine ground ball to SS...and the rest is history...

Chisoxfn
07-06-2002, 02:47 AM
Bagg's you know you'll never convince me that Jose is any better then Royce over at short. I do agree that Jose has a lot more tools then Royce and is a much better person, but Jose lacks consistency and still is terrible. Jose is a great utility man but isn't a starter. I don't think he would start on many teams more importantly I couldn't see a team winning the world series with him at short. I could see a team do it with Royce if they had awesome pitching, but even then it would be a stretch. I've said it all along, I don't like either of them, and that its time we go deal for a young shortstop from another farm system. Our strength is developing and drafting pitchers so why not use that to our advantage to add other position players. Thats the whole theory with drafting tons of pitching. You draft it, then you pick and choose and filter your top ones into your staff and use otherse to get positional players. THe problem is we gave up 2 of them in Kip and Fogg for Ritchie(BUM) and then gave up Myette(May not of been a great MLB pitcher, but he was a good prospect) for Clayton. If we packaged all those guys together at the right time, we could of gotten ourselves a front end pitcher(I bet we would of been able to get Schilling if we wanted to when the Phillies were moving him, but of course we didn't. Instead KW takes craploads of them and trades them for more unproven talent.

I've said it all along. We aught to move Ray(If we don't intend on bringing him back, Jose, Lofton, and Alomar and in return we aught to look for a younger starting pitcher to come in and help us now, as well as a shortstop prospect who is ready to come in now(Betemeit or some other teams-Yanks got a damn good one right now as well if I remember right). Too bad we got KW at the mound and he turned in our plethora of pitching for Ritchie and Royce. Geeze, give me a break.

CubKilla
07-06-2002, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Personally I don't believe that Hummel has the arm or the range to play shortstop. I believe odds are he'll be our future 2nd baseman. Of course he needs to figure out how to hit again cause he's really having a down year. I haven't seen enough out or Harris to make me believe he can do it at 2nd, but to me offensively and defensively Reyes is the guy we have capable of handling short(Hummel would be similar to having Jose out there)

What about Willie Harris at second? If they go with him at 2B next year, and the Sox don't trade or acquire a SS, I think Hummel (for better or worse) is the guy we go with in '03..... if there is a '03.

Jerry_Manuel
07-06-2002, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
What about Willie Harris at second? If they go with him at 2B next year, and the Sox don't trade or acquire a SS, I think Hummel (for better or worse) is the guy we go with in '03..... if there is a '03.

Crede, Jose, Harris: 2003
Crede, Hummel, Harris: 2004

LongDistanceFan
07-06-2002, 06:38 AM
lets put the blame where it belongs. with kw, why b/c he went out and gotten rc so he can trade him. if people remember that is what he said, he went against those who warned him about rc, but he still thought he could have traded him.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
lets put the blame where it belongs. with kw, why b/c he went out and gotten rc so he can trade him. if people remember that is what he said that before. he went against those who warned him about rc but he thought he still could've traded him. I have no idea what you just said.

Jerry_Manuel
07-07-2002, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I have no idea what you just said.

I'll translate.

LDF thinks that the blame should be placed on Williams, because he made the trade for Clayton. He goes on to point out that the trade was made so Kenny could deal Royce once he came to the Sox. He also said that Williams was warned by other teams not to trade for him because of his clubhouse attitude.

Hope that helps.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2002, 03:42 AM
Thank you.

LongDistanceFan
07-07-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Thank you. ok i was half asleep when i wrote that.

LongDistanceFan
07-07-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I'll translate.

LDF thinks that the blame should be placed on Williams, because he made the trade for Clayton. He goes on to point out that the trade was made so Kenny could deal Royce once he came to the Sox. He also said that Williams was warned by other teams not to trade for him because of his clubhouse attitude.

Hope that helps. thanks

GASHWOUND
07-07-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I have had it watching this guy trotted out every day. I know the dead horse is severely beaten but I have to vent. Here goes:

ROYCE'S OFFENSE- The guy is a National League punch and judy reject hitter. He has no patience or plate discipline at all. Yesterday, from my perch in section 159, I watched Royce make an out on 1 pitch leading off an inning in one AB and strike out on 3 pitches in the next at bat (3 home run cuts) then ground out weakly to lead off the bottom of the 9th. He got 4 homers in April and immediately thought he was A-Rod and has been swinging for the fences ever since. His current "hot streak" has been more attributed to ducksnorts and infield singles then really making solid contact with the ball and working counts. This is how Royce hits. He's not getting any better. He won't get any better.

ROYCE'S DEFENSE- Royce is the most overrated defensive SS in the history of the White Sox. Royce has no range going to his right because he's contantly playing up the middle. How many weakly hit grounders do we see go right between Royce and Valentin? It's one thing to play up the middle if you have good range going to your right but Royce doesn't. His arm is weak. Much weaker then Valentin's. How many would be double plays do we see where the runner is safe at 1st because of a half assed Royce Clayton lollipop throw rather than a Valentin cannon throw? There was a reason the Sox lead the AL in DPs turned in 2000 and that reason was Valentin playing SS every day. In addition to all of this we've seen Royce start flubbing some routine plays recently (Remember Friday against the Flubs?)


So Royce doesn't hit and isn't the defensive savior he's cracked up to be yet he keeps playing even though Manuel said he was going to bench him. Graffanino has the 4th best batting avg. on the team and is always on base doing things to help us win yet he rots on the bench because of Royce. Crede scalds the ball in AAA yet he rots in Charlotte because of Royce. Valentin struggles with defense because he's a SS playing 3B because of Royce. When will we get rid of this useless excuse of a SS and move on. Cut your friggin' losses on the guy because he's doing nothing but hurting the team and making fans like me go insane!

:hitless
Behold! The albatross around the neck of your 2002 White Sox!

*Yawn*

Gee, another the Sox suck cause of Clayton thread..Almost unbelievable that we're blaming our #9 hitter(1 player out of 25 man roster) is the reason we suck..It makes me chuckle..
The reasons we suck and should be blamed BEFORE Clayton's name even comes up is cause of these players Ritchie, Foulke, Lofton's recent whoas, Wright, JM, and the biggest culprit.. FRANK THOMAS. These names should come up before Clayton's name on why we suck. if these players would perform to their capabilities we would be where the Twinkies are right now. In first place.
I'm not defending Clayton's play by any means, but he is not the reason we suck and its getting really old and tired. Fine, he sucks at hitting, but he'll end up hitting .260 by the years end and you'll won't convince me that Clayton is a bad SS, and like you said, the worst SS in the AL..Give me a break.
And you brought up that we lead the AL in turning DPs in 2000 is cause of Valentin..Uhh, aren't we in the top 2 or 3 this year in turning DPs this year with Clayton at SS. I think we # 2. So we might even lead the AL in turning DPs this year with Clayton.
Its just funny that a guy who made over 30 errors at SS is a much better SS than Clayton..I don't buy it.
He is not to blame, only part of the blame and would like him gone to so we can bring up Crede, but he's on the club now and we're gonna have to live with it until further notice.

Kilroy
07-07-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


*Yawn*

Gee, another the Sox suck cause of Clayton thread..Almost unbelievable that we're blaming our #9 hitter(1 player out of 25 man roster) is the reason we suck..It makes me chuckle...

Most of us have gotten tired of pointing this lost little fact out. Thanks Gash, for saying it again...

Foulke You
07-09-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


*Yawn*

Gee, another the Sox suck cause of Clayton thread..Almost unbelievable that we're blaming our #9 hitter(1 player out of 25 man roster) is the reason we suck..It makes me chuckle..
The reasons we suck and should be blamed BEFORE Clayton's name even comes up is cause of these players Ritchie, Foulke, Lofton's recent whoas, Wright, JM, and the biggest culprit.. FRANK THOMAS. These names should come up before Clayton's name on why we suck. if these players would perform to their capabilities we would be where the Twinkies are right now. In first place.
I'm not defending Clayton's play by any means, but he is not the reason we suck and its getting really old and tired. Fine, he sucks at hitting, but he'll end up hitting .260 by the years end and you'll won't convince me that Clayton is a bad SS, and like you said, the worst SS in the AL..Give me a break.
And you brought up that we lead the AL in turning DPs in 2000 is cause of Valentin..Uhh, aren't we in the top 2 or 3 this year in turning DPs this year with Clayton at SS. I think we # 2. So we might even lead the AL in turning DPs this year with Clayton.
Its just funny that a guy who made over 30 errors at SS is a much better SS than Clayton..I don't buy it.
He is not to blame, only part of the blame and would like him gone to so we can bring up Crede, but he's on the club now and we're gonna have to live with it until further notice.


Gashwound and Kilroy seem to be missing the point of my post. The point of the post was me venting about my personal frustration at seeing Royce trotted out there every day. Hence the title "So utterly sick of Royce Clayton!" I was aware of the fact that this subject has been talked about a lot which is why I said "the horse has been severely beaten" so I'm very sorry if I...*yawn*... bored you. My suggestion would be not to read it if you are *yawn*...so tired of reading about Royce. :D: If you re-read my post you will see Gashwound & Kilroy, that I didn't say anywhere in the main rant that "Royce is the sole cause of all of our problems...blah blah blah...we'd win a World Series without him!!!!". I stated that he is merely the cause of SOME of our problems and I agree with your other points about Ritchie, Frank, Foulke etc. but that isn't the POINT of my post. Maybe I'll go back and edit the Royce picture caption to say "ONE of the albatrosses of your 2002 Sox" instead of THE which could've caused confusion.

I also never said he was the "worst SS in the AL" just the most overrated in the history of the White Sox. Which, defensively, he is the most overrated in my mind. The way people talk about "slick fielding" Royce Clayton you would think that he's Ozzie Smith or Ozzie Guillen out there. He is FAR from that. My reasons for thinking this are in the original post. The more I watch the guy play SS every day, the more I'm convinced that he's the biggest fraud of a would be gold glove I've ever seen.

You say that we aren't a better team with Valentin playing SS every day instead of Royce and I completely disagree. Jose Valentin is a winner. Bottom line. The guy is a leader, he plays his heart out on the field, gets his uniform dirty, hates to lose, is smart and aggresive on the basepaths, plays when he's hurt, and has been one of the best clutch hitters on the team. He's a guy you want to have in his natural position and you want to play him every day because he helps you WIN GAMES.

Royce is an average fielder at best, a bad baserunner, clubhouse cancer, HORRIBLE hitter, and even more horrible in the clutch. What exactly has Royce done defensively or offensively to help this team win in the last 2 years? I don't care if he's in the 9 hole. Look at all of the true contenders in the AL like NY, Boston, and Seattle and they all get production from the 8 or 9 spot. Getting some solid production from 1-9 is so important in the AL. You think those teams would play Clayton on a daily basis? No. Yes, his average will be up to .260 by September just like last year. He'll start hitting when we're buried and out of it. When it doesn't matter. I can't remember a single game that we've won this year or last year because of Clayton. However, I can name you dozens of games we've won because of Jose Valentin in the last 2 years. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is wins.