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Nellie_Fox
07-05-2002, 01:40 AM
Okay folks, time to put hatred aside. I want your honest appraisal of the Sox vs. the Twins, position by position. Believe me, I don't like it, because I have to listen to Twins fans around here all the time, because I make no secret of my Sox fan status. Anyway, here's my breakdown.

Starting pitching: Oddly enough, I'll give the edge to the Sox. Radke and Milton have disappointed, Reed has been pretty good, but Buehrle and Garland alone make the Sox starting staff better right now.

Relief pitching: Twins, without question. Guardado alone would be enough, but Hawkins has been great in setup situations (1.56 ERA in 52 innings) and Romero has too.

Catcher: Pierzynski against anybody the Sox send out there. Advantage: Twins. Pierzynski is hitting .322 with a .500 slugging. His defense is solid. Any argument?

First base: Sox. Mientkewicz offense is down. His defense is great, but first base is an offensive position, and what can I say about Paulie?

Second base: Rivas vs. RayRay. Rivas may be a little better defensively, RayRay better offensively. Even though I consider second to be a defensive position, I don't see enough difference defensively to offset Ray's better offense. Advantage: Ray.

Shortstop: Guzman vs. Clayton. Guzman. I don't see many arguments here.

Third: Koskie vs. Manos. Koskie. He's better both offensively and defensively.

Right field: I won't even bother to list the committee the Twins send out there. Mags, hands down.

Center field: Advantage Twins. Tell me you wouldn't swap Lofton for Hunter in a heartbeat.

Left field: Jones vs. C.Lee. Jones is much better offensively this year than C.Lee at an offensive position, and as a bonus he is much better defensively as well. Jones.

Double check my math, but I see it 6-4, Twins. Tell me where I'm wrong, Sox fans.

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 01:44 AM
Any thoughts on the two skippers?

I agree with everything else. I might lean more towards the Twins when it comes to starting pitching though.

Chisox_cali
07-05-2002, 01:45 AM
What about the Bench? I really don't know who's on the Twink bench so I really can't compare. Tony G is always pretty clutch.

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
What about the Bench? I really don't know who's on the Twink bench so I really can't compare. Tony G is always pretty clutch.

So we have Tony vs. the entire Twins bench? Rowand isn't good for much coming off the bench, same for Liefer.

Nellie_Fox
07-05-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Any thoughts on the two skippers?

I agree with everything else. I might lean more towards the Twins when it comes to starting pitching though. Actually, I couldn't help myself in looking at everything in the light most flattering to the Sox. Starting pitching has been better than I thought it would be, and the Twins have had problems. Maybe I should have made that a tossup.

As for manager, I haven't seen enough of Gardenhire to know. He sure seems to care a lot about his players, and has more emotion than Manuel. I like the way he handles his bullpen better too; not so righty/lefty conscious as Manuel. I think I'd give the nod to the Twins here too (dammit.)

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
As for manager, I haven't seen enough of Gardenhire to know. He sure seems to care a lot about his players, and has more emotion than Manuel. I like the way he handles his bullpen better too; not so righty/lefty conscious as Manuel. I think I'd give the nod to the Twins here too (dammit.)

Same here.

So we've learned that the Twins are the better team.

Paulwny
07-05-2002, 07:28 AM
Which team has more desire?

delben91
07-05-2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Which team has more desire?

Up until last week, that'd be the Twins without question. Lately, and despite last night's seeming choke effort by the bullpen, the sox have been playing with a lot of heart (see wednesday night's 4 run rally in the 9th). Combine that with the sox of april, and I'd be tempted to call it a push.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2002, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Okay folks, time to put hatred aside. I want your honest appraisal of the Sox vs. the Twins, position by position....

I think your analysis is spot-on. I was never convinced the Sox were a superior team to the Twins in the first place. Until we start beating them with any regularity, I'll remain unconvinced.

While others have raised issues about the bench and managers, let's not overlook the home-field advantage the Twins have, too.

The Twins are tailor-made to play ball inside the Hump Dome. How many times have we seen one of their hitters slap the ball onto that hard as concrete floor and beat out an infield single. I can't remember a team doing this any more than the Twins since the days of Herzog's Cardinals back in the 80's.

They're speedy in the outfield and cut off balls that our fielders let roll to the wall for 1-2 extra bases. Their speed comes in handy on the basepaths, too. Of course it's a big advantage that they know how to catch a white ball on a white ceiling.

Playing half the season's games inside the Hump Dome might be the Twins' biggest advantage over our Dead Sox.

Procol Harum
07-05-2002, 09:42 AM
I'll buy your general breakdown with the exception of 2B--I'd take Rivas over Durham. While Rivas' raw offensive numbers overall don't add up to Ray's, you have to figure in some of the how and when with Durham's offense and lack thereof. Durham's stupid doppleganger comes to the ballpark at least 2-3 days a week and steps up to the plate w/o a clue as to what he's going to do, swings for the fences when you need a single, etc., etc. Intangibles, intangibles....

And the more I think about the starting pitching, you can point to the Twinks' starters not doing as well as they maybe should have (and Mays has had that injury), but when you look at what those pitchers can legitimately give you--what you know they can do, as opposed to all of the Williamsesque potential of the Sox crew beyond Buerhle and Garland--I'd probably give MN the edge. Does that mean in the long-term that I'd rather have Minnesota's staff? Not necessarily, but as far as this year goes--we in trouble y'all.

harwar
07-05-2002, 10:14 AM
The twins are an excellent defensive team while the White Sox defense is at best,woefull.Man-4-man we should beat the snot out of them offensively,but it just ain't happening so far.I looked for the twins pitching to carry them all year,but injuries to radke & mays have stymied that.There is NO F#CKING WAY we are out of it yet.Its a long second half,but one thing is for sure.We have to come out of the gate firing on all cylinders and crank it up to full-tilt-boogie for the duration.

delben91
07-05-2002, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by harwar
full-tilt-boogie

I'm sorry, but that phrase just amuses me. Is that a harwar original? Or is it merely that my sheltered life has left me ignorant to these sayings?

kermittheefrog
07-05-2002, 10:20 AM
Okay I have two disagreements.

#1. No matter how spotty the Twins best starters from last year havbe been they at least have the advantage of not having two horrendous starters like Ritchie and Glover starting every five days. Throw in the inconsistent youthes and we have all of one reliable starter. Twins get the edge in SP.

#2. I hate Royce but he's better than Cristian Guzman. Guzman was great last year but this year he's back to Earth. They are about even in the batters box (although right now Choice is hitting better, tells you somethin bout Cristian) but Guzman's defense sucks. Every year he's got horrible defensive numbers. Choice at least is a plus defender.

mrwag
07-05-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Double check my math, but I see it 6-4, Twins. Tell me where I'm wrong, Sox fans.

We're doomed.

I hope we have some changes in staff come second half. I'd love to see a change at third and CF.

doublem23
07-05-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by mrwag


We're doomed.

I hope we have some changes in staff come second half. I'd love to see a change at third and CF.

:crede
I still got a glove.

:jerry
We already know what Joe can do.

:hitless
He's not replacing me, is he Unky Jerry?

:reinsy
Manuel! Clayton is making $4.5 million! Play him!

:jerry
Yes, master.

:crede
Good God, I can't get the hell out of this organization fast enough. Who else needs a third baseman? Cleveland? The Cubs?

Foulke You
07-05-2002, 03:52 PM
The one reason I haven't given up on this season is the fact that the Twins peed their pants down the stretch last year and completely choked. Their bullpen was horrendous down the stretch especially Latroy Hawkins and Guardado. Now, Guardado is having a nice year but he is starting to show chinks in the armor. He looked less than impressive against the Sox narrowly blowing a save and he blew a save against Oakland 2 nights ago. The Twins last year handed the division to the late charging Indians. There is nothing that can convince me that the Twins aren't capable of doing the same thing down the stretch this year. They are a beatable team. Now if someone can wake up the White Sox, and the Sox can play good ball in the 2nd half and take it to the Twinks in head to head games then the division is doable. Losing 2 of 3 to the lowly Tigers at Comiskey is not a good start.

ma-gaga
07-05-2002, 04:42 PM
Off-topic. I wouldn't hold my breath about the Twins falling apart. Last year the Twins traded away their best batter, lost their all-star SS to injury and got pounded by said Indians. Yes, against Oakland he blew one save, but Guardado also got two saves against them. He's not Hawkins. Plus the rest of their bullpen has been amazing this year. I cannot begin to describe how good they've pitched. Plus Cleveland won 91 games they deserved the post-season much more than the Twins did. If Chicago gets back on track and wins 90+ games, they should easily win the division.

On-topic. Guzman vs Clayton. It's the weirdest thing, up until last years all-star break Guzman was phenominal. Then he got hurt sliding into a base head first, and he is still trying to work himself back from that injury. His defense suffered (from above average to average), and he's still swinging away at everything.
If he continues his non-walking tendancies, I'll give you Clayton. However, right now I'd take the 24 year old Guzman who may or may not get better, over the 32 year old Clayton who's going to give you a 0.250 average by the end of the year and cost 10 times as much and who'll hold down uber-prospect Crede.

:)

Chisox_cali
07-05-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
The one reason I haven't given up on this season is the fact that the Twins peed their pants down the stretch last year and completely choked. Their bullpen was horrendous down the stretch especially Latroy Hawkins and Guardado. Now, Guardado is having a nice year but he is starting to show chinks in the armor. He looked less than impressive against the Sox narrowly blowing a save and he blew a save against Oakland 2 nights ago. The Twins last year handed the division to the late charging Indians. There is nothing that can convince me that the Twins aren't capable of doing the same thing down the stretch this year. They are a beatable team. Now if someone can wake up the White Sox, and the Sox can play good ball in the 2nd half and take it to the Twinks in head to head games then the division is doable. Losing 2 of 3 to the lowly Tigers at Comiskey is not a good start.

I have to agree, I personally think the bullpen is pitching over their heads. I mean J.C. Romero was dominating, he gave up like 4 ER all year than in one inning gave up 4 to the Sox alone. The thing is that J.C. Romero is not a not that was heard that often until this year meaning he does not have that much experience in that role and I think the innings will catch up to him. Same thing with Gagne is LA he has never been a full time closer so he may fall apart during the 2nd half.

Foulke You
07-05-2002, 04:57 PM
"On-topic. Guzman vs Clayton. It's the weirdest thing, up until last years all-star break Guzman was phenominal. Then he got hurt sliding into a base head first, and he is still trying to work himself back from that injury. His defense suffered (from above average to average), and he's still swinging away at everything.
If he continues his non-walking tendancies, I'll give you Clayton. However, right now I'd take the 24 year old Guzman who may or may not get better, over the 32 year old Clayton who's going to give you a 0.250 average by the end of the year and cost 10 times as much and who'll hold down uber-prospect Crede."
-posted by ma-gaga

:) [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Guzman over Clayton in a heartbeat. Right now, I'd take a big sack of marbles over Royce Clayton.

doublem23
07-05-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You

I agree. Guzman over Clayton in a heartbeat. Right now, I'd take a big sack of marbles over Royce Clayton.

Hey now, its about time for Babe's 2nd half surge.