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Tragg
07-04-2002, 10:20 PM
Yes, Manuel proves himself a fool again (tomorrow, we have little bullpen, fwiw).

But the bottom line is that except for Durham, Konerko, Ordonez , Garland and Buerhle, our players are average or worse. That's on Williams and Scheuler. And that isn't changing, unfortunately.

More unfortunately, the aging stiffs have little market value (except when we try to acquire aging stiffs), so the needed White Flag II won't bring much. Of course, neither did the overrated White Flag I.

balboner
07-04-2002, 10:33 PM
Foulke is our best trade commodity, with Durham high as well. Another player that could get someone in return is Ritchie, but there's no way Lenny will be made to look like an even bigger fool. It scares me to hear him say he wants to be a buyer, not a seller. He'll probably trade Crede and Malone for Ron Gant's veteran presence

oldcomiskey
07-04-2002, 10:45 PM
without that overrated white flag trade we dont win the division in 2000---and foulke has one bad year and you all act he is Bob James or something--God I hate to see you people when Konerko or Maggs has a bad one

RKMeibalane
07-04-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
without that overrated white flag trade we dont win the division in 2000---and foulke has one bad year and you all act he is Bob James or something--God I hate to see you people when Konerko or Maggs has a bad one

I know what you mean. There are so many front-runners, whiners, and complainers on this board. It's sickening. They're taking the fun out of discussing the White Sox and visiting with other baseball fans. I really wish some of them would just leave.

captain54
07-04-2002, 11:22 PM
Foulke had one bad year?? C'mon......

Foulke has sucked since at least the 2000 playoffs......gave up a critical home run in Game 1 of the playoffs.....

Last year he LOST 8 games.....thats 8 games where he not only blew the save but gave up the tying and winning run.....hey, guess how many games we were out of first last year?? yup, 8....

this year has been a total disaster for him....after he screwed up the third game of the season you could see the handwriting on the wall....Yet, Manuel continued to trot him out there in critical situations, including tonite when Marte was cruising along just fine....

On the Sox postgame tonite on AM 1000, Manuel said he's going to keep looking for situations to put Foulke in for the rest of the year where he can build his confidence....Tonite, he couldn't get ONE FRIKKIN OUT!!

Kenny Williams should be ashamed of himself for allowing this team to start the season with the bullpen the way it was coming out of spring training....

I love the Sox and always will but this organization blows big time....

Tragg
07-04-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
without that overrated white flag trade we dont win the division in 2000---and foulke has one bad year and you all act he is Bob James or something--God I hate to see you people when Konerko or Maggs has a bad one

Oh really? Foulke and ONLY FOULKE could have brought us the division? Let's see, Boston got Varitek and Lowe for Heathcliffe Slocumb. The complaint isn't about trading Alvarez and Hernandez - the point is that we got little in return.

Oh, and Hernandez got 32 saves for lowly Tampa Bay in 2000.

Look, this isn't a matter of someone having a bad game. This is a matter of 2 crummy seasons in a row, after a division championship.

Tragg
07-04-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I know what you mean. There are so many front-runners, whiners, and complainers on this board. It's sickening. They're taking the fun out of discussing the White Sox and visiting with other baseball fans. I really wish some of them would just leave.

Oh, gee, our opinions aren't up to your standards show we should leave the board to please you? Here are two suggestions. First, leave your e mail address so that I can send you my posts for your approval prior to my posting them. Or even better, if you don't like a post, don't read it.

CerberusWG
07-04-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


Oh, gee, our opinions aren't up to your standards show we should leave the board to please you? Here are two suggestions. First, leave your e mail address so that I can send you my posts for your approval prior to my posting them. Or even better, if you don't like a post, don't read it.

O-w-n-e-d!

duke of dorwood
07-04-2002, 11:35 PM
Go Go Tragg.

guillen4life13
07-04-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by captain54
Foulke had one bad year?? C'mon......

Foulke has sucked since at least the 2000 playoffs......gave up a critical home run in Game 1 of the playoffs.....

Last year he LOST 8 games.....thats 8 games where he not only blew the save but gave up the tying and winning run.....hey, guess how many games we were out of first last year?? yup, 8....

this year has been a total disaster for him....after he screwed up the third game of the season you could see the handwriting on the wall....Yet, Manuel continued to trot him out there in critical situations, including tonite when Marte was cruising along just fine....

On the Sox postgame tonite on AM 1000, Manuel said he's going to keep looking for situations to put Foulke in for the rest of the year where he can build his confidence....Tonite, he couldn't get ONE FRIKKIN OUT!!

Kenny Williams should be ashamed of himself for allowing this team to start the season with the bullpen the way it was coming out of spring training....

I love the Sox and always will but this organization blows big time....

is that so? hmm maybe we should blame frank thomas also.. he wasn't there to bail this team out whenever we needed it. yep... this whole team and its failures are keith foulke's fault.

do you guys realize that when foulke is on, he's arguably the best closer in the game? let's not forget that before howry's surgery, he was arguably the best (or one of the best) setup men in baseball? he came in the trade also. foulke's in a funk. he needs to get out, yeah. but as someone else said... what are you guys gonna say when paulie or maggs go into a prolonged slump?
"we should have never signed Magglio Ordonez! He's such a loser! I can hit a fastball better than him"

or maybe we'll hear this:

"God, how could we have traded Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron!?! He grounded into a game ending DP and he's the team leader?!?! I'd much rather have Mike Cameron and his .260 average than Paul Konerko!"

come on! it's natural for players to go into funks or get injured, and take more than a year to get back to their pre-injury form. give the guys a break!

i would really like to see where this team would be now with Wilson Alvarez, danny darwin and roberto hernandez. wouldnt you?

guillen4life13
07-04-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13

"we should have never signed Magglio Ordonez! He's such a loser! I can hit a fastball better than him"


another thing (this is probably gonna belong in another thread, but here goes): I get really tired of seeing people say that they could hit a fastball than royce clayton or whoever. i'm sure there are many people on this board (myself included) who probably couldn't hit a 75 mph pitch, let along a 93 mph pitch. it's not as easy as they make it look. if you could do it, you would be up at the professional level with these guys.

captain54
07-04-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13


is that so? hmm maybe we should blame frank thomas also.. he wasn't there to bail this team out whenever we needed it. yep... this whole team and its failures are keith foulke's fault.

do you guys realize that when foulke is on, he's arguably the best closer in the game? let's not forget that before howry's surgery, he was arguably the best (or one of the best) setup men in baseball? he came in the trade also. foulke's in a funk. he needs to get out, yeah. but as someone else said... what are you guys gonna say when paulie or maggs go into a prolonged slump?
"we should have never signed Magglio Ordonez! He's such a loser! I can hit a fastball better than him"

or maybe we'll hear this:

"God, how could we have traded Paul Konerko for Mike Cameron!?! He grounded into a game ending DP and he's the team leader?!?! I'd much rather have Mike Cameron and his .260 average than Paul Konerko!"

come on! it's natural for players to go into funks or get injured, and take more than a year to get back to their pre-injury form. give the guys a break!

i would really like to see where this team would be now with Wilson Alvarez, danny darwin and roberto hernandez. wouldnt you?

Its Keith Foulke's job as a closer to shut the other team down in the late innings.....he hasnt done that in a long, long time.....the league has caught up with him.....a two pitch pitcher that doesnt have the stuff to blow hitters away.....its way more than a funk, my man....

All we really have to show for now for giving up Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez is Howry and Foulke, and they both suck right now....seeing that Hernandez is doing a pretty good job as closer right now, I'd say that was a crappy deal, wouldnt you.....??

Let's keep giving all these players who are in funks all the time they need to figure it out and I guarantee you we will NEVER see a World Championship on the South Side....

Hey let's bring Terry Bevington back, I'm sure was just in a funk for a couple of years....and while we're at it lets bring back:

Jamie Navarro
Greg Norton
Gene Lamont
Ken Hill
Harold Baines
Mike Caruso
and
Jim Parque
-

Spiff
07-05-2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I know what you mean. There are so many front-runners, whiners, and complainers on this board. It's sickening. They're taking the fun out of discussing the White Sox and visiting with other baseball fans. I really wish some of them would just leave.

Oh there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks on this board. But I guess it is fun for them to pretend they know how to run a baseball team.

idseer
07-05-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Tragg




Look, this isn't a matter of someone having a bad game. This is a matter of 2 crummy seasons in a row, after a division championship.

actually it's worse than that. it's about having 2 and a HALF crummy seasons after a great 1st half of '00.

chisoxfanatic
07-05-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by idseer


actually it's worse than that. it's about having 2 and a HALF crummy seasons after a great 1st half of '00.

I don't mean to be technical here, but.........the second half of 2000 + all of 2001 + the first half of 2002 = TWO seasons, not 2 1/2 seasons....that's just the mathematics major in me.

Anyway, I am getting a little tired of seeing the same old same old from Foulke nearly every time he's sent to the mound. Either he show up or he should sit for a while.

Heather the Redbird

doublem23
07-05-2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Spiff


Oh there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks on this board. But I guess it is fun for them to pretend they know how to run a baseball team.

Of course. They win a division on N64 and suddenly they're God.

I'm not saying this doesn't suck, but trust me. Everyone of us would do about 10 times worse.

TornLabrum
07-05-2002, 12:46 AM
Oh there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks on this board. But I guess it is fun for them to pretend they know how to run a baseball team.

I'll interject here, I may not have the skills to run a ballclub, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize incompetence when I see it. It doesn't take a genius to know that a podiatrist with an excessively high mortality rate is probably incompetent.

Tragg
07-05-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Of course. They win a division on N64 and suddenly they're God.

I'm not saying this doesn't suck, but trust me. Everyone of us would do about 10 times worse.

I freely admit that Manuel and Williams know a lot more about baseball than I do. I, however, work for free. They work for high six figures (or more). The standard shouldn't be whether our management knows players better than boisterous posters like me. The standard is whether they know players and baseball well enough to get us to a WS.

captain54
07-05-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Of course. They win a division on N64 and suddenly they're God.

I'm not saying this doesn't suck, but trust me. Everyone of us would do about 10 times worse.


My mechanic can fix my car 100 times better than me, but when he completely messes it up, I have a right to be pissed....

Manuel, Williams, Nardi, Reinsdorf...can run things better than the average fan can, but are they qualified to give the fans their moneys worth??

They deserve to be criticized when they fail to give the hardworking, loyal fan their money's worth.....

doublem23
07-05-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by captain54



My mechanic can fix my car 100 times better than me, but when he completely messes it up, I have a right to be pissed....

Manuel, Williams, Nardi, Reinsdorf...can run things better than the average fan can, but are they qualified to give the fans their moneys worth??

They deserve to be criticized when they fail to give the hardworking, loyal fan their money's worth.....

I never said you didn't have a right to be pissed... I'm pretty pissed over this, too.

However, most of the armchair quarterbacks Spiff is talking about come off like they honestly believe they could do a better job than Manuel, Williams, Frank, etc. Trust me. You can't.

That's my only beef.

FarWestChicago
07-05-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


I never said you didn't have a right to be pissed... I'm pretty pissed over this, too.

However, most of the armchair quarterbacks Spiff is talking about come off like they honestly believe they could do a better job than Manuel, Williams, Frank, etc. Trust me. You can't.

That's my only beef. Well said, doub.

RedPinStripes
07-05-2002, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well said, doub.

You sure about that? MAnuel and KW seem like they try to make bad moves at times.

doublem23
07-05-2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


You sure about that? MAnuel and KW seem like they try to make bad moves at times.

I'm not saying they're not making bad moves. Sure they are, and we have a right to be pissed off about it. The problem (like I stated), is these guys that go around and think that if someone the Sox GMship landed in their laps, they'd make a big difference for the better.

Anyone of us would just flush the Sox even further down the ****ter. Trust me.

RedPinStripes
07-05-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


I'm not saying they're not making bad moves. Sure they are, and we have a right to be pissed off about it. The problem (like I stated), is these guys that go around and think that if someone the Sox GMship landed in their laps, they'd make a big difference for the better.

Anyone of us would just flush the Sox even further down the ****ter. Trust me.

ok. got me there, but i could be a damn good special advisor to KW :)

pudge
07-05-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


I'm not saying they're not making bad moves. Sure they are, and we have a right to be pissed off about it. The problem (like I stated), is these guys that go around and think that if someone the Sox GMship landed in their laps, they'd make a big difference for the better.

Anyone of us would just flush the Sox even further down the ****ter. Trust me.

Sure it's a tough business, the only thing that bugs me is that I never like how the Sox position themselves coming out of spring training. And another problem I have is bad trades. We all knew we gave up too much for Todd Ritchie, but when the deal happened, I told myself, "Okay, KW knows more than I do, I'll just have to trust him on this one..." WRONG. So now I don't trust any of them, and that's the point.

As for Foulke, all those on this board who were defending him earlier in the year, now I just laugh. If you can't see a guy on the total demise, then too bad - I'm not saying I'm a professional scout or anything, but it was so painfully obvious this guy was going to continue to hurt the team, and people on this board wanted to keep him in the closers role, let alone on the MLB roster at all! Sure, we don't have many options, but at this point ANYBODY else has a better chance of holding a 3-run lead... How many three-run leads has he blown this season!?

That's my rant. Peace out. Season over. Hope they strike.

Jerry_Manuel
07-05-2002, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I could be a damn good special advisor to KW :)

I can see the headlines now:

Williams punched out by advisor

RedPinStripes
07-05-2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I can see the headlines now:

Williams punched out by advisor

*****!!!!!!!

CLR01
07-05-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Last year he LOST 8 games.....thats 8 games where he not only blew the save but gave up the tying and winning run.....hey, guess how many games we were out of first last year?? yup, 8....


ahem...bull****...ahem......

Of foulkes 9 loses last year he only blew the save and gave up the winning run in three games( one of which he didnt get charged with a BS). One of those games took place in the rollerdome and as we all know was not completely Foulkes fault the defense had a complete meltdown. The other 6 he came in with the game tied (we all know he sucks in tied games) and 4 of those 6 he also pitched two innings (again we all know he sucks in those situations, put the two together and you'd be better off just forfeiting the game). Funny you didnt mention the 42 games he saved for the sox. The same 42 saves that was good for 3rd in the AL, 7th in both divisions. The leader in MLB was Rivera who had 50 saves, 6 losses and 7 BS, 4 more than your new whipping boy. Im sure they were just itching to run Rivera out of town in New York. You also forgot the mention that Buerhle lost 8 games (gee how many games out of 1st were we????), David Wells lost 7, Rocky Biddle lost 8( theres that pesky 8 again), Garland lost 7, Baldwin lost 11 (oh boy we could have won the division and not just tied).....Ill stop there, im tired of looking up stats.

CLR01
07-05-2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by chisoxfanatic


I don't mean to be technical here, but.........the second half of 2000 + all of 2001 + the first half of 2002 = TWO seasons, not 2 1/2 seasons....that's just the mathematics major in me.

Anyway, I am getting a little tired of seeing the same old same old from Foulke nearly every time he's sent to the mound. Either he show up or he should sit for a while.

Heather the Redbird


Lets get even more technical. The sox were 44-37 in the second half last year, sure it didnt get us into the playoffs but I dont consider .543 ball crummy do you??? If its crummy because we didnt make the playoffs then the second half of 2000 cant be crummy because we did make the playoffs, either way its still only 1 1/2 crummy seasons.

doublem23
07-05-2002, 03:13 AM
Got some pent up rage, CLR? :smile:

Holy ****, he tore that post apart.

Note to self: Don't piss off CLR

captain54
07-05-2002, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by CLR01



ahem...bull****...ahem......

Of foulkes 9 loses last year he only blew the save and gave up the winning run in three games( one of which he didnt get charged with a BS). One of those games took place in the rollerdome and as we all know was not completely Foulkes fault the defense had a complete meltdown. The other 6 he can in with the game tied (we all know he sucks in tied games) and 4 of those 6 he also pitched two innings (again we all know he sucks, put the two together and you'd b better off just forfeiting the game). Funny you didnt mention the 42 games he saved for the sox. The same 42 saves that was good for 3rd in the AL, 7th in both divisions. The leader in MLB was Rivera who had 50 saves, 6 losses and 7 BS, 4 more than your new whipping boy, Im sure they were just itching to run him out of town in New York.. You also forgot the mention that Buerhle lost 8 games (gee how many games out of 1st were we????), David Wells lost 7, Rocky Biddle lost 8( theres that pesky 8 again), Garland lost 7, Baldwin lost 11 (oh boy we could have won the division and not just tied).....Ill stop there, im tired of looking up stats.

ahem.....bull****.......ahem

Foulke is not my new whipping boy, I've thought he's sucked for a while now, I just haven't been screaming about it on the board...

Good job digging up those stats, but you dig up stats on starting pitchers, who of course have more the opportunity to lose with all the innings pitched.....So, bad analogy on your part....

the other bad analogy was comparing Rivera to Foulke....stats don't always tell the story....Foulke lost some of the most critical games of the season, not only this year but last year as well....

I'm not even going to go into all the games, (like Wednesday nite against the Tigers)...where Foulke was neither charged with a loss or a BS and was only asked to get three outs and yet gave up a run....that fifth run ended up to be difference maker in that game.....

If he sucks in tie games and he sucks when he's asked to get at least six outs, then he just flat out sucks as a closer, so why do you defend this guy??

oldcomiskey
07-05-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by captain54



My mechanic can fix my car 100 times better than me, but when he completely messes it up, I have a right to be pissed....

Manuel, Williams, Nardi, Reinsdorf...can run things better than the average fan can, but are they qualified to give the fans their moneys worth??

They deserve to be criticized when they fail to give the hardworking, loyal fan their money's worth.....

captain. my captain--you have been using that same old tired argument for 3 years now---even on the cws.com board--I think its time you get another argument going pal....

and you always have the right NOT to go back to that mechanic too

guillen4life13
07-05-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by captain54


ahem.....bull****.......ahem

Foulke is not my new whipping boy, I've thought he's sucked for a while now, I just haven't been screaming about it on the board...

Good job digging up those stats, but you dig up stats on starting pitchers, who of course have more the opportunity to lose with all the innings pitched.....So, bad analogy on your part....

the other bad analogy was comparing Rivera to Foulke....stats don't always tell the story....Foulke lost some of the most critical games of the season, not only this year but last year as well....

I'm not even going to go into all the games, (like Wednesday nite against the Tigers)...where Foulke was neither charged with a loss or a BS and was only asked to get three outs and yet gave up a run....that fifth run ended up to be difference maker in that game.....

If he sucks in tie games and he sucks when he's asked to get at least six outs, then he just flat out sucks as a closer, so why do you defend this guy??

oh yeah. lets just remember 2001 when keith foulke blew game 7 of the world series.

yep. mariano never blew a single big game last year.

captain54
07-05-2002, 09:10 PM
Yankees have at least been to the World Series, quite a bit lately as a matter of face....

I don't forsee the Sox getting there any time soon, at least under this regime.....

guillen4life13
07-06-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by captain54
Yankees have at least been to the World Series, quite a bit lately as a matter of face....

I don't forsee the Sox getting there any time soon, at least under this regime.....

i'm just pointing out that in pressure situations, mariano has broken down. believe me man, foulke is gonna get back on track, and go back to what he was doing in 2000 and 2001 (who can say that 2001 was a bad year?!?) he was 3rd (i think) in the league in saves (42) and had the highest mlb save percentage. thats not a bad year. the blown save @ the metrodome was not his fault at all. it was the defense's fault. the other 2 were just blown saves.

captain54
07-06-2002, 02:07 PM
It appears to me that Foulke might be going the way of Bobby Thigpen, who set a MLB record for saves and was out of baseball a couple of seasons later.....

The White Sox have to lead the league in having patience with guys who arent performing.....it would also appear that reason is based on economics in most cases....

but yet, guys are launched because they don't have the right "attitude", (i.e., Sean Lowe).......

Brian26
07-06-2002, 02:14 PM
Hawk always says the Sox win when Frank plays good, and when Frank's in a slump, well...

Was just going through some old tapes this morning. Had game 1 of the 2000 playoffs in. Sox were up 4-3 in the 7th, with the bases loaded and Frank at the plate. They had a chance to blow the game open right there, but Frank popped up to Buhner in right.

Frank's been popping up ever since then.

Who knows how that series swings if Frank can put it together.
There's a lot of guys to blame. I'd have to put Frank, Royce, Foulke, the unsteady lineup by Manuel and the shaky #3-#5 starting pitching, Durham's mediocre past 2 years at the top of the list. Lee's sucked too for basically a year now. It's easier to talk about the guys who have played well, and you can basically narrow it down to 3 guys: Konerko, Mags, and Buehrle.

Chisoxfn
07-06-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13




i would really like to see where this team would be now with Wilson Alvarez, danny darwin and roberto hernandez. wouldnt you?

Come on now, if we only had Doug Drabek back we'd be a championship team :whiner:


Geeze, this is ridiculous blaming Foulke for last year. The guy has arguably been the best reliever the past couple seasons and he has a down year and everyone forgets everything he ever did. Heck, evne with Foulke pitching right we'd still stink. It doesn't take away from the fact that our starting rotation is terrible and that we have Jose, Royce, and Alomar in our starting lineup everyday. It also doesn't take away from the fact that Lofton is not doing his job at the top of the order and that Ray Ray should be leading off.

Come on now. All I want to see is the development of Crede and our pitchers as well as a catcher and a new shortstop. I'm happy with Caballo and I hope we keep Ray. Of course if we don't plan on keeping Ray we better move him.

Jjav829
07-06-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Of course. They win a division on N64 and suddenly they're God.

I'm not saying this doesn't suck, but trust me. Everyone of us would do about 10 times worse.

Even if I went 162-0 and didn't lose a game during the playoffs? :D:

Well now I guess I better find a new career if what your saying is true.

Chisoxfn
07-06-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


I never said you didn't have a right to be pissed... I'm pretty pissed over this, too.

However, most of the armchair quarterbacks Spiff is talking about come off like they honestly believe they could do a better job than Manuel, Williams, Frank, etc. Trust me. You can't.

That's my only beef.

Well, I actually do believe I could do a better job then KW for a much less price at SOME things. The one thing I respect KW for is I think he is a great judge of talent and really knows how to draft and build a minor leauge system. I can't say that I could do anywhere near as good of a job that he does when it comes to that, but that is why I think KW should strictly should be in charge of minor league personell and our drafts. He should basically be our scouting director. I do think that I could do just as good of a job when it came to running the big club. I've played baseball pretty much my whole life and and am a huge fan. I've watched it since I was 5 and have a pretty good understanding of the game. I also realize everyone is entitled to make mistakes. The problem is when most people were commending KW for acquiring Ritchie(I read boards and I know most people were for the trade, they felt we gave up a little too much but that it was worth it to get Ritchie). I know one other person along with me who was strongly against it and that was Baggio. I'm sure some other people felt the same way as we did, but I hate it when people rip a guy even they enjoyed the move at the same time.

I also see so many people do the same thing when it comes to the David Wells trade. I still say that was a good trade cause Sirotka isn't doing a damn thing and that deal put us in position that if Boomer didn't have back trouble we'd probably would of been deep in the playoffs. How is it his fault David gets hurt. How is it his fault our whole staff went down last year. What is his fault is the Ritchie deal. The Marte deal worked out fine if you ask me. I also think the whole Berry fiasco was a huge mistake. Still, even his best deal, which would be the Marte deal(I'm talking trade cause Lofton at his bargain price could be his best move, even though Kenny is struggling right now) wasn't that smart. The reason being is that Marte was going to be placed on waivers and any team could of had him. Why we had to give up a solid pitching prospect to get him blows my mind. We could of given them someone like Ken Vining and had a done deal simply because the Pirates were about to cut him and get nothing in return. I wrote about this in an article on another site when the move was made, but I won't post the link in respect to the people in this site. They do an awesome job running it and I respect them all a lot.

Now back to this whole Ritchie fiasco(his worse trade made). It still doesn't make sense to me why we gave up such a promising arm in Kip Wells for a guy who had proved just as little in the majors named Todd Ritchie. Ya, he had one good year, but even then he had his flaws and had huge slumps where he lost. After watching this guy pitch I see nothing that impresses me. He hangs more pitches then any other pitcher in the game and has a very inconsistent release point. Its hard to have any sucess having a consistent breaking ball when you fall off the mound 15-20 different ways a game. Now Kip wasn't great, but you definately saw him show stints where he was awesome. Fogg also did the same thing in the few appearances we saw out of him in the pen. Also, after seeing what the A's did for Carlos Pena and a couple not so graet prospects I get even more upset. We gave up Kip Wells(Just as good of a prospect as Carlos Pena and Fogg, a better prospect then either of the other two the A's gave up, plus Sean Lowe in return for a guy that proved nothing. The a's got a Lefty starter who has done awesome this year and is holding opponents to a .202 avg. Plus they got 2 top prospects out of the Yanks organization whom were their 1st and 2nd round picks in last years draft. Geeze...Doesn't it seem like we got a bit screwed???

Sorry, I know baseball pretty darn well and I can evaluate talent and I just know that I don't want KW in charge. Our team has a glaring need for starting pitching, we had a surplus of prospects and instead of turning it into a couple top notch pitchers(Weaver and Dempster) we turned it into a top notch stiffs in Ritchie and Rocye.