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View Full Version : Good to see Clayton....


Randar68
08-06-2001, 04:03 PM
Back to his old self....

swinging and missing at anything that moves....way to be Royce....

Soxboyrob
08-06-2001, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Back to his old self....
swinging and missing at anything that moves....way to be Royce....

It's one game for cryin' out loud. He's still been our most consistent hitter over the last 2.5 months.

danman31
08-06-2001, 05:16 PM
No matter how true that is, that is sad.

doublem23
08-06-2001, 08:59 PM
Too bad he was flirting with .100 in the beginning of the season when the games mattered.

Mathew
08-06-2001, 09:55 PM
Our most consistant hitter over any stretch of time would not be batting ninth! Yes, it makes a difference where you are in the order! Royce=pigschit

Daver
08-06-2001, 10:00 PM
Substitute whaleschit for pigschit and I agree 100%.

Kilroy
08-06-2001, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Mathew
Our most consistant hitter over any stretch of time would not be batting ninth! Yes, it makes a difference where you are in the order! Royce=pigschit Are you saying those hits don't count when you are batting 8th or 9th?
Sorry, but you can't debate the fact that since June 1, no one on the team has hit better than Royce.

FarWestChicago
08-06-2001, 10:13 PM
Sorry, but you can't debate the fact that since June 1, no one on the team has hit better than Royce.

I can change your user name to Kilroyce if you want. :)

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 10:16 PM
Sorry, but you can't debate the fact that since June 1, no one on the team has hit better than Royce.

Canseco has and he has only been with the team for a month...

:)

Daver
08-06-2001, 10:22 PM
So we can count you in the bring back Jose column VC?

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 10:25 PM
So we can count you in the bring back Jose column VC?

No... I like what he has done, and I was merely making a point. And that point is... DUMP CLAYTON!!!

I wish there were a slot for Jose on this team next year, but with Frank due back, there is just no place to play him, and the Sox need OBP guys , not more sluggers...

Mathew
08-06-2001, 11:28 PM
yes I am saying that batting 9th is not the same. Having the pitchers pitch to you like the nine guy because you are the nine guy and you are bad a la Royce Clayton. Having a .240 average and being in the lineup spot of the worst hitter on the team, means just that. If Royce was good, consistant or capable of either he would not be last in the order.

Soxboyrob
08-07-2001, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile

I wishh there were a slot for Jose on this team next year, but with Frank due back, there is just no place to play him, and the Sox need OBP guys , not more sluggers...

Meanwhile, Jose Canseco leads the team in OBP with a sparkling .404.

However, I agree that it doesn't appear that there is a place for him w/ Frank returning. We might consider signing him for the 2002 season and making sure Frank is healthy before just casually dismissing the guy. He's won some games for us. We can probably sign him for cheap and trade him if necessary.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 01:40 PM
It seems to me that this team gets itself into trouble when they decide to take someone based on the fact that they should be able to trade them. ie. whaleschit. I would like us to not take on extra players that we don't wish to insert into the lineup. We can't wait and see if Frank comes back strong next year because if he doesn't the team will be barely better than this year if at all.

Joel Perez
08-07-2001, 01:53 PM
Check out Royce's stats each month (these stats are his BA for the month of, not his actual BA):

April 2001: .125 (7 for 56)
May 2001: .104 (5 for 48)
June 2001: .263 (21 for 80)
July 2001: .342 (WOW! No wonder...27 for 79)
August 2001 (so far): .357 (5 for 14)

His BA as of 8/7/01: .235

So now what? He swooned for April and May, but ever since June, his BA backs up his stance: PLAY ME!!!

And for those of you wanting to see what his defensive stats are:

Fielding pct as of today: .989 (I have no idea what his rank is)
81 games started/88 games total
371 Total chances
130 Put outs
237 Assists
4 Errors. THAT RIGHT, 4 ERRORS.
42 Double Plays.

Now, the question is this: (My best Chet Coppeck immitation:)
Given the fact of the above, do you play him and let "The General", Jose Valentin play 3B or CF, or do you let Jose retain his SS duties--and keep in mine too, that Jose is not 100%? What would you do???

Stats are from www.chisox.com .

:hitless Don't call me hitless, that's for sure.

:manos See this smile on my face? Let's play!

doublem23
08-07-2001, 02:00 PM
AHHH!!!

Valentin is better than Clayton in every aspect of the game of baseball when healthy. Royce Clayton is, at best, a backup for Jose.

And I will continue to call him Hitless!

Soxboyrob
08-07-2001, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
AHHH!!!

Valentin is better than Clayton in every aspect of the game of baseball when healthy. Royce Clayton is, at best, a backup for Jose.

This is absolutely WRONG!!!!
75-80% of the plays a shortstop makes are in the routine to slightly difficult range. Clayton is so much better than Valentin at making these types of plays that I feel silly for even commenting on it. The guy(Clayton) has 4 errors for god's sakes.

Now, on a separate note....20-25% of the plays a SS makes are of the slightly difficult to almost impossible range. Valentin is clearly better at this, but by how much? His range and arm strength are superior to Clayton's. But in many instances, Valentin gets to a tough ball and then proceeds to throw it away. Clayton's arm, while weaker, is tons more accurate than Jose's. I think you might find that the two guys are about similar when considering the bottom line of what they defensively bring to the table.

All of that said, I'd be happy to see either guy playing there as a regular, as long as it involved Jose being regularly in the lineup in some facet or another.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 02:20 PM
Anyone with a .235 bA should be called hitless. I would consider Rey Ordonez a defensive specialist. He has a bad Avg. like Clayton. But he makes spectacular plays Clayton does Not! A defensive specialist should make great play, not routine ones. Professional Ball players should be expected to play defence like Clayton, not be rewarded for it!

doublem23
08-07-2001, 02:27 PM
Argh!!! There is no comparison between Clayton and Valentin. Valentin is a superior player. The bottom line is we need his stick in the lineup, so we might as well play him at his best defensive position, SHORTSTOP.

And big deal Clayton has 4 errors. Durham only has 7 and Valentin has a whopping 5. The scorekeeper at Comiskey is VERY lenient.

I can't see any comparison between Clayton and Valentin.

:manos is head and shoulders better than :hitless

doublem23
08-07-2001, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
All of that said, I'd be happy to see either guy playing there as a regular, as long as it involved Jose being regularly in the lineup in some facet or another.

I'll be happy once Clayton leaves.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 02:38 PM
Doublem it is uncanny how similar we think in many issues this one of them. If I didn't think Valentin was outright better I would still think he is worth more to the overall game at S.S. he contributes to miles more offence than he ever gave up defensively. I don't like moving everyone around for a number of reasons.

1. I have played baseball at a relatively high level and moved a game from centerfield to 2B, concequently making 2 errors and costing several runs. They were not solely because of the switch but it is hard to move around.

2. For the same reason I don't move the pen into start. Too say that Jose could play center left or anywhere is to possibly make 2 holes. One at bat at S.S. and one in the defensive outfield by taking away a natural at that position.

3.This is getting lone and I type with one finger so Clayton is whaleschit is my conclusion. Valentin is a better baseball player and that should not be in question.

doublem23
08-07-2001, 02:44 PM
Right, and somewhere around here there is that article about how many of Jose's 36 errors last season actually cost us a win.

I forget the exact count, but it was something like 5 or 6 games, at most, Jose cost us with an error, so in conclusion, maybe the Sox could have won 100 or 101 games in 2000 rather than our pathetic 95.

The fact is that Jose Valetin wins us more games with his bat than he loses with his glove.

and Royce Clayton loses more games with his bat than he saves with his glove.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 02:54 PM
I've asked before and they said 5. Therefore if Valentin's bat and unnoticed defence didn't win us five games I'll eat my shirt.

Paulwny
08-07-2001, 03:07 PM
I'm not a royce fan or not anti Royce, I don't buy the errors to lost games argument. Last years team had a veteran staff this year young guns. No one knows how they'd react to errors in critical situations. Last years team made up for errors by scoring a ton of runs this year every run is critical.

Iwritecode
08-07-2001, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Mathew
I've asked before and they said 5. Therefore if Valentin's bat and unnoticed defence didn't win us five games I'll eat my shirt.

I believe it was a definite 5 and possibly 6 because one was questionable. The one big problem I have with Royce, anyone keeping stats on the number of times a runner has beat his throw to first? Either on a routine grounder or a DP? I remember seeing it at least 2 or 3 times already.

Tragg
08-07-2001, 05:12 PM
"75-80% of the plays a shortstop makes are in the routine to slightly difficult range"

That's true. And clayton makes 97% of those plays and valentin 95%.

As for the other 25%, Clayton makes ZERO percent, and Valentin may make 50%. That's enough to put valentin well ahead of clayton. Not to mention that clayton's offense isn't american legion worthy.

That said, Valentin himself is no better than average. WE need an upgrade badly.

Soxboyrob
08-07-2001, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
"75-80% of the plays a shortstop makes are in the routine to slightly difficult range"

That's true. And clayton makes 97% of those plays and valentin 95%.

As for the other 25%, Clayton makes ZERO percent, and Valentin may make 50%. That's enough to put valentin well ahead of clayton. Not to mention that clayton's offense isn't american legion worthy.

That said, Valentin himself is no better than average. WE need an upgrade badly.

Clayton makes more like 99.5% of the routine plays, but I get your point.

Clayton has also made several outstanding plays that were highlight-worthy. I must be watching a different guy from the rest of you. You go on to compare Clayton's hitting to Legion quality, although he's hitting up a storm since the seventh or eighth week of this season.

The way I see it is we got killed by his limp bat during the first 2 months. Why not reap the benefits of his hot bat right now and then reassess before next season starts? I don't know about you guys, but I like seeing "0" errors in our box scores and that has been a lot more common thing this season than last.

I've been Clayton's biggest detractor and his biggest defender in the same season. It's sorta scary.

Answer me this....Had Clayton started the season hitting the ball the way he's hit since the 8th week, would he not be well-liked by the fans? My answer is that most the fans would be pretty happy w/ the guy had he hit .260-.270 all season. Valentin's my favorite player on the team and you needn't build a case for the guy to me, but several of you are acting as if Clayton's not carrying his weight, meanwhile, Durham is ABSOLUTELY KILLING US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tragg
08-07-2001, 05:32 PM
Clayton has a career fielding % of .970; valentin's in .957. Assuming that fielding % reflects a player's ability to make a routine play (which I think it does), there is your difference: 13 more errors out of valentin for every 1000 plays.

As for hitting, clayton's career obp is a woeful .312 and his career sp is .370. Jose's isn't great either - .327 and .435, but he did have an excellent year last year (again, a bit deceptive, but it was over an entire year).

I don't think either one is particularly good, although I'll take valentin over clayton any day.
I would think Kenny Williams isn't doing is job as GM if he doesn't get a neary-ready young SS by spring training. We have enough bodies to deal and certainly enough top quality aAA and AA pitching, such that a trade for a position player is a reasonable expectation out of our GM.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 05:45 PM
Valentin is average when compared to who? How many shortstops in the league were better than him last year certainly not half of them. Clayton is pulling his weight but that is because we expect so little of him. He is a 9 hitter. He is not making highlight reel plays and any he does are well within Valentin's ability. Furthermore if you love the streak Royce is on, why bash Durham by claiming he's killing us. Royce is not at the top of the order because he is bad unlike Durham. Durham is on a small streak of his own do you forgive his poor streak like you did Royce's. Durham is a mutiple time allstar and gold glove winner, is Royce Clayton?

Soxboyrob
08-07-2001, 06:33 PM
any gold glove that was won by Durham was won without my knowing about it. Durham gets hot occasionally, but by hitting homers. The guy just needs to get on base and score runs and stop swinging for the fences. He's been doing this for years....not just this season. If he's won a gold glove, I must have missed it.

Overall, I don't see Clayton as our savior or anything else. He's adequate and he's hot right now. I can live w/ that for the time being. I think we have bigger problems. No way are the Sox looking at Clayton for the long haul anyway.

Mathew
08-07-2001, 06:51 PM
My apologies there, he probably hasn't won pish all, I've been at work too long and I agree that he isn't doing a very good leadoff job, but in recent weeks he's been better and I think with Frank back he should realize that he need not hit home runs, even so I have always thought our miggest concern should be a real leadoff man. I've said this before, we don't need these specific positions as much as someone to be a good leadoff, where ever he plays chances are we could use him. I think Ray is a different ballplayer than when he came up, be still good aswell as usefull in many capacities, which probably don't include leadoff batting though I don't write him off yet.

doublem23
08-08-2001, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
As for hitting, clayton's career obp is a woeful .312 and his career sp is .370. Jose's isn't great either - .327 and .435, but he did have an excellent year last year (again, a bit deceptive, but it was over an entire year).

Well, I think its a little short-sighted to say that Valentin just had a fluke season last year. Last season, Valentin set a career high for plate appearances at 627 (568 AB, 59 BB). His previous best was set in 1996 when he had 617 (552 AB, 66 BB). In 1996, Valentin hit .259 (career high until 2000), scored 90 runs (career high broken in 2000), hit 24 homers (he hit 25 in 2000 - ANOTHER career high), and drove in 95 runs (he only drove home 92 last season). The one stat the really jumps out is his 145 Ks in 1996 compared to his 106 in 2000, but hitting in front of Mr. Frank Thomas probably caused this drop.

In 2000, Valentin's OBA was a respectable .341. In 1996, his OBA was a respectable .338.

I don't like to get bogged down in stats a lot, because there are so many BS stats anyone can come up with, but I think the numbers here show that when Valentin plays, he produces. His career numbers may be lying because he has been injured, and also, in years when he doesn't play a lot, he doesn't produce as much.

Originally posted by Tragg
I don't think either one is particularly good, although I'll take valentin over clayton any day.
I would think Kenny Williams isn't doing is job as GM if he doesn't get a neary-ready young SS by spring training. We have enough bodies to deal and certainly enough top quality aAA and AA pitching, such that a trade for a position player is a reasonable expectation out of our GM.

Ahhh!!! Last year, when compared to other AL shortstops, Jose Valentin scored te 3rd most runs (107), which is something you want your #2 hitter to do. He had the 3rd most HR (25), and this is in the league of ARod, Jeter, Nomar, and the likes. He had the 4th most RBI, and his 19 stolen bases were 4th best among AL shortstops.

Perhaps in a few years (Valetin is 31) we should really worry about shortstop. But let's face it, we're not going to get much better than Valetin, and to top it off, I think we have a bigger hole on this team - catcher.

Paulwny
08-08-2001, 11:25 AM
It's well known around MLB that many if not all players born in the islands pay-off officials to doctor their birth records. Add 2-3 yrs. to their ages. I think Valentin was born in Puerto Rico.

doublem23
08-08-2001, 11:34 AM
Yes, he was born in Puerto Rico.

Either way, then Valentin is somwhere around 28-31, meaning we don't really have to worry about shortstop (as long as Clayton isn't there) for a few years.

(in response to what Soxboyrob wrote...)
And, yes, I would still be mad at the Sox for playing Clayton even if he didn't start the season hitting .100 purely because I feel that Jose Valentin is one of the better shortstops in baseball right now. He's not in the superstar range, but he is definately at the top of the list.

I mean, how would we like it if the Sox went out and got someone to replace Maggs in RF because they wanted to upgrade his defense? So, we give Maggs the shaft and make him play in other places so we could get someone else, who is clearly inferior to Maggs except in defensive ability (and that's even up in the air). That is basically what I see happening here with Jose. We're giving one of our better players the shaft because we want "better defense." Dammit! This team won last year with Valentin at short!

Paulwny
08-08-2001, 11:46 AM
Valentin is probably 33-35 yrs. old and the sox know this.

Mathew
08-08-2001, 11:50 AM
I should think that's a huge asumption. Jose Canseco is from where cuba so I guess you're saying he's 42 correct?

Paulwny
08-08-2001, 11:56 AM
I thought Canseco was born in FL: parents came from Cuba. Some yankee brass actually believe EL Duque is not 36 or 38 but actually 42 to 44 yrs old.

doublem23
08-08-2001, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Valentin is probably 33-35 yrs. old and the sox know this.

Right, I have a problem with this subtraction/addition stuff.

Tragg
08-08-2001, 12:21 PM
We really do have to worry about shortstop because we don't have a good one and we cannot have two holes in the batting order.

Mathew
08-08-2001, 12:55 PM
The White Sox brass signed a guy they thought was 35 to a three year 15million dollar contract, I doubt it. Yes Elduque is that old but that is very sickening generalization to say that being from an poorer island country makes Valentin a liar and a cheat. To say we don't have a good SS is simply false. We don't have one playing right now, but we have a very good one. I'm pretty sure Canseco lied about being from Florida to avoid being the victim of American racism, which is clearly what this is.

Paulwny
08-08-2001, 01:02 PM
Jesus, I'm not getting into racism. Back in the 50's , it is well known that records of ball players born in the US prior to 1940 were not reliable and many players lied about their age. It's nothing new. I'm sorry that you look at it as a racist statement.

Mathew
08-08-2001, 01:20 PM
I'm sure you're not a racist nor did you intend to sound as such. To say U.S. ball players did it 60 yrs ago doesn't make up for what I think was something very much out of line, generalizatins based on race is what is defined as racisim, I think that is what I read back there. I honestly don't know how old Jose is but to automatically asume he's lying would be very wrong of me.

Paulwny
08-08-2001, 01:26 PM
Again , my apologies.

Joel Perez
08-08-2001, 01:36 PM
Man o man...show some stats and look at what happens!!

IMO--(and I will be on a stake for saying this) Royce can be and probably is a better DEFENSIVE SS than Jose, but overall, my nod goes to Valentin for his intangibles--namely, leadership qualities, a powerful bat, and adequate defense at best. Remember all, that Jose is not at 100% and has been at more positions than that number 73 guy a few years ago--Tony Phillips I do believe--but Jose has been good at less than 100%.

Royce, for all the negative stuff that has happened to him this year, is coming back BA wise and is strong defensively, plus his range is a shade below Ray's IMO.

It's good that we have both on our team, especially if and once Jose does go down permanently for the rest of the year--that should happen once the Sox are eliminated from playoff contention.

Quick question though--is Royce under a one-year contract, or does he have a multi-year contract with the Sox? Does anyone know?

doublem23
08-08-2001, 02:32 PM
Royce Clayton has terrible range and a terrible arm. He can make the easy plays, but he has the range of a shopping cart at short.

And he is signed until the end of the 2002 season, so unless some other GM is stupid enough to take Royce, we'll be stuck with him.

IMO, Royce Clayton is, at best, Jose Valentin's backup, and even then, he'll probably have to fight with Graffy.

Mathew
08-08-2001, 02:43 PM
:hitless
Just call me hitless the shopping cart!
UMMMMMM! Ice Cream!