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View Full Version : Frank, grab some bench...


Kilroy
07-02-2002, 11:04 PM
I think with the kitties in town, Manuel should give Liefer a couple days at DH. Frank is not playing his way out of this funk. He needs some days off. He is all kinds of bass-ackwards at the plate right now...

duke of dorwood
07-02-2002, 11:08 PM
Playing can't be helping him. He looks lost and confused.

voodoochile
07-02-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Playing can't be helping him. He looks lost and confused.

Changing your stance every second day is NOT conducive to going on a tear. I don't know what the answer is, but Frank is in a funk. I wonder why he only used the open stance for one game (and it worked). Does it affect his tricep injury when he bats like that, or does he just not like the plate coverage he gets. Heck, if it's the second one, he should go with the stance, not like he's tearing up outer half pitches anyway and this way he'd at least be hurting the inside stuff...

Take the AS break, Frank, watch some tape, visit with Walt, whatever you need to do, do it, because the Sox are going to need your bat this year and in the years to come...

doublem23
07-03-2002, 12:39 AM
I disagree. I think if there's any team Frank should be playing against, its the weaker teams; so at least if he struggles the rest of the team can pick him up (like tonight).

However, after watching him get completely befuddled tonight, I agree the next time we go up against some better teams, Frank may need to be benched. Problem is... for who?

Poor Frank. You can see he's really trying, too.

LongDistanceFan
07-03-2002, 06:32 AM
what is happening to the big guy............ i feel so sorry for him..... i hope this is not true, but it reminds me of a player who is past him prime and refuses to hang it up.......... something like harold did last yr..........

i hope he comes around................. to me it appears that he had more success with the open stand.

Kilroy
07-03-2002, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
..... i hope this is not true, but it reminds me of a player who is past him prime and refuses to hang it up.......... something like harold did last yr...

I might agree if it weren't for the fact that this year, Frank, at times, has looked sharp at the plate. Har-OLD never did last year. So I'm more inclined to think that its that Frank is off his game as opposed to old and washed up...

doublem23
07-03-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
what is happening to the big guy............ i feel so sorry for him..... i hope this is not true, but it reminds me of a player who is past him prime and refuses to hang it up.......... something like harold did last yr..........

i hope he comes around................. to me it appears that he had more success with the open stand.


Originally posted by Kilroy


I might agree if it weren't for the fact that this year, Frank, at times, has looked sharp at the plate. Har-OLD never did last year. So I'm more inclined to think that its that Frank is off his game as opposed to old and washed up...

Yeah, I have to agree with Kilroy here. Granted, Frank's BA has slipped to under .250, but he still has what 13 home runs (off the top of my head IIRC) and is over 50 RBIs; unlike Harold, who in 32 games, hit .131 (11-84) with no homers and 6 RBIs.

Frank is still getting some good wood on the ball; the problem is he's not been doing that consistently enough lately.

Dadawg_77
07-03-2002, 10:13 AM
Honestly, unless it would help Frank to sit, I would rather have him in there. Maybe move him to a less of a pressure spot in the lineup. But a struggling Frank is a better hitter then a great Liefer.

LongDistanceFan
07-03-2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by doublem23





Yeah, I have to agree with Kilroy here. Granted, Frank's BA has slipped to under .250, but he still has what 13 home runs (off the top of my head IIRC) and is over 50 RBIs; unlike Harold, who in 32 games, hit .131 (11-84) with no homers and 6 RBIs.

Frank is still getting some good wood on the ball; the problem is he's not been doing that consistently enough lately. i haven't looked up his hr stat, but even at 13 he is still performing with the likes of shed, rmondiesa(sp) and a few notables........... but i just remember him of old with his avg over 300 that being said, maybe i can deal with his avg low and still producing.............

Kilroy
07-03-2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Honestly, unless it would help Frank to sit, I would rather have him in there. Maybe move him to a less of a pressure spot in the lineup. But a struggling Frank is a better hitter then a great Liefer.

That may be, but Frank is not recognizing right now, he's guessing. He hasn't had a decent at bat since saturday, and he seems lost when a breaking ball starts his way. PEDRO CERANO has come to life. Where's JOBU when you need him??

Let his mind be free from thinking about his next at bat for a while...

LongDistanceFan
07-03-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


That may be, but Frank is not recognizing right now, he's guessing. He hasn't had a decent at bat since saturday, and he seems lost when a breaking ball starts his way. PEDRO CERANO has come to life. Where's JOBU when you need him??

Let his mind be free from thinking about his next at bat for a while... still, i will play the devil advocate here and say that maybe missing last year is still affecting his swing.

for everyones mind......... i am still a frank backer. period

TheBigHurt
07-03-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I think with the kitties in town, Manuel should give Liefer a couple days at DH. Frank is not playing his way out of this funk. He needs some days off. He is all kinds of bass-ackwards at the plate right now...

anyone but Liefer

CerberusWG
07-03-2002, 11:31 AM
At least we know Frank cares. He was PISSED when he was struggling last night. He shattered his bat with ONE HAND drilling it into the ground last night.

At least he has some heart and can't stand the way he's hitting.

wassagstdu
07-03-2002, 12:01 PM
Frank Thomas is possibly the greatest hitter the Sox have ever had -- which is not to say greatest player because baseball is not bp. If he can't hit it is physical (watching him I suspect his lower back). If he is playing with his stance he is trying to find a way to compensate. Time to move on?

delben91
07-03-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by wassagstdu
Frank Thomas is possibly the greatest hitter the Sox have ever had -- which is not to say greatest player because baseball is not bp. If he can't hit it is physical (watching him I suspect his lower back). If he is playing with his stance he is trying to find a way to compensate. Time to move on?

Welcome aboard wassagstdu.

Time to move on? I don't know who we'd get to take frank, and then, who do you replace him with? He may not have the BA up right now, but his run production numbers are up. I say let him finish out the year, see if he can't turn it around. I think he can.

doublem23
07-03-2002, 01:12 PM
First off, if anyone has earned the right to take some time to find his swing, its Frank. That said, I think Manuel just needs to leave him in the 3-hole and let him hit his way out of this slump. He's looked good at times. If he can figure out what's wrong, watch out for this Sox lineup, because they will be DANGEROUS.

Secondly, who could replace Frank in the lineup as the everyday DH? Liefer? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Rowand? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. We know Borchard won't be making an appearance on a Major League roster until the labor problems are straightened out.

So, like it or not, Frank is here to stay.

RKMeibalane
07-03-2002, 01:34 PM
Agreed. Frank is trying to figure this out. I don't know why some people here think he's just collecting a paycheck. He has worked his ass off this season, and he is making an effort to get himself going. He knows he capable of much more than this. Every time he strikes out or has a poor at-bat, he walks back to the dugout pissed. He cares.

I'm not thrilled with his performance either, but let's remember that he is still having a prodcutive season. In all likelyhood, he will finish the year with thirty homers and over one hundred runs batted in. Those aren't bad numbers. I'd rather have Frank in the lineup than anyone else. We know we aren't going to see Crede or Borchard up here anytime soon. There is no one else who can do the job.

One more thing. The Sox WON last night. Let's remember that winning is what the Sox need the most if they want to have any chance of getting into post-season play.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-03-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Agreed. Frank is trying to figure this out. I don't know why some people here think he's just collecting a paycheck. He has worked his ass off this season, and he is making an effort to get himself going. He knows he capable of much more than this. Every time he strikes out or has a poor at-bat, he walks back to the dugout pissed. He cares.

I'm not thrilled with his performance either, but let's remember that he is still having a prodcutive season. In all likelyhood, he will finish the year with thirty homers and over one hundred runs batted in. Those aren't bad numbers. I'd rather have Frank in the lineup than anyone else. We know we aren't going to see Crede or Borchard up here anytime soon. There is no one else who can do the job.

One more thing. The Sox WON last night. Let's remember that winning is what the Sox need the most if they want to have any chance of getting into post-season play.

Yeah, what he said!

Let's remember, too, we're still under .500. Until we get at least 1-2 games over the official threshold of mediocrity, I see little reason to worry about what the Twins are doing. We aren't going anywhere till we start winning more games than we lose.

Halfway through the season, and we haven't proven jack.

Chisoxfn
07-03-2002, 02:01 PM
Come on guys, why give up on Frank now. Yes, he is struggling and yes our team isn't in first place, but recently we've started to show signs of life. Were playing much better baseball the past week as Ray has started to play and even Lofton is looking like he may be getting out of his tailspin.

Frank is definately struggling right now. The problem with him is he's flying open and his hip is dropping before he swings so he isn't properly shifting his weight nor is he staying back on the ball. When you fly open its really hard to pull the trigger on an off-speed pitch or a curve ball because all your weight is on your front foot and you can't do much with a baseball in situations like that. Right now, Frank needs to be in there everyday seeing pitches. He's getting deep into counts, but is just unable to pick up the ball and stay back. That should change with time and when he starts reading pitches better. Right now he's just guessing at the plate and when you do that you'll never have any sucess. I'd look for him to stick it out this week, hopefully get a couple good at bats and then look at the All star break as a time to look at tapes and go back and maybe even talk to Hrniak(Like someone suggested). Still, even when he's struggling Frank is still pretty darn good simply because he can draw the walk and he's still hitting for power and driving in runs. Its pretty amazing the numbers he's put up thus far considering how bad he's been at the plate and how lost he is. Heck, look at Mo Vaughn who was in a similar position to Frank. He hasn't exactly lit the world on fire and I really think the biggest reason is missing a full season is hard. I kind of think we'll see him turn things around after the break and you'll slowly see him build his avg up around .270-.280.

As far as moving him, I don't see it likely but some teams could definately use him(A's, BoSox, Angels, Braves). Unfortunately I doubt many would be willing to take on his payroll and only the Angels, Braves, and A's are the only teams who would have what it took to make a trade(While the BoSox are the ones with the money capabilities).

In conclusion, don't bench Frank(Liefer ain't better, nor is Rowand(Although I like Rowand as a starter in Center) and lets hope he pulls things through. He's been an amazing hitter in his career and he deserves time to pull through. He's working hard and isn't complaining and is still helping this club. Give him time and he'll pull things together. It isn't like he's too old or anything like that and it isn't as if he isn't able to hit the ball hard cause he's done that plenty of times this year.

Kilroy
07-03-2002, 02:13 PM
For the record, my suggestion that Frank grab some bench was not because I am sick of him. Far from that. I just think that its time for him to watch for a couple of days, maybe a week. Get thru the break, and then come back at it fresh on the other side. That's all. I think that will help him. Hurt is by far my all-time favorite Sox player. Sometimes its counter-productive to continue to try and keep failing. I think he's putting too much pressure on himself and that not having to step to the dish for a few days would let his mind relax. His problems are mechanical AND mental. In the words of Morpheus: "Free your mind..."

CerberusWG
07-03-2002, 02:52 PM
Biggest problem for Frank:

He stands 5 feet off the plate.

hold2dibber
07-03-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
For the record, my suggestion that Frank grab some bench was not because I am sick of him. Far from that. I just think that its time for him to watch for a couple of days, maybe a week. Get thru the break, and then come back at it fresh on the other side. That's all. I think that will help him. Hurt is by far my all-time favorite Sox player. Sometimes its counter-productive to continue to try and keep failing. I think he's putting too much pressure on himself and that not having to step to the dish for a few days would let his mind relax. His problems are mechanical AND mental. In the words of Morpheus: "Free your mind..."

I disagree - I think he lost his rhythm when he had to sit out during all those NL Park games. He needs ABs to get himself back in the swing, not more time stewing away on the bench.

Kilroy
07-03-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
Biggest problem for Frank:

He stands 5 feet off the plate.


Agreed. I've said it 10 times. Again, remember back to when Belle got hot suddenly when he was with the Sox. His adjustment was to move much closer to the plate. He was on fire.

Originally posted by hold2dibber


I disagree - I think he lost his rhythm when he had to sit out during all those NL Park games. He needs ABs to get himself back in the swing, not more time stewing away on the bench.

At what point this season has Frank been in a rhythm enough to lose it because he was sitting out some games??

RKMeibalane
07-03-2002, 06:03 PM
Frank does need to move closer to the plate. I think that would solve a lot of his problems quickly. Pitchers would no longer be able to throw pitches on the outside corner where he couldn't reach them, because he'd reach out and hit those down the right field line. Because he isn't hitting the outside pitch, Frank has been trying to pull everything, and that is not his game. He has always hit the ball well to all fields, but this season, most of his hits and all but two of his homeruns have been to left or left-center.

balboner
07-03-2002, 08:33 PM
What more does Thomas have to do in order to stay in the line-up? W/him never getting on base, it's killing Mags and Konerko. If he's going to play, bat him 7th.

Nellie_Fox
07-04-2002, 12:49 AM
Do you have some video of Frank in his heyday? Take a look. He stood even further away from the plate than he does now.

I don't see where sitting him would do any good, but he needs to be dropped to about 7th in the order. Your best all-around hitter needs to be in the three hole, and right now there could be a spirited debate as to whether that guy is Mags or Paulie (my vote is for Paulie.) Either way we'd be better off.

Frank missed an entire year. It's possible that he's finished, players have been done younger than Frank, but I don't want to believe that just yet. He's been the best hitter I've ever seen in a White Sox uniform, and he deserves the whole season to see if he can come back.

bc2k
07-04-2002, 01:22 AM
Thomas is batting .242, Magglio is batting .315, and Konerko .334. I want Konerko and Magglio batting 3rd and 4th or vice versa. How can you not want to give Konerko a guaranteed at bat in the first inning? Take the June 3rd game for example; Lofton, Durham, Thomas went down in order.

To me it is simple; The more at bats to the best hitters equal more wins. Just b/c I'm not a Thomas fan, please don't dismiss my thinking here. This isn't another anti-Thomas post, it is a pro-Konerko and Maggs post. Since Frank is still producing in the rbi department, I could see him batting fifth.

Nellie_Fox
07-04-2002, 02:33 AM
This may be a first; bc2k and I are in agreement. For every spot lower in the batting order, you average an additional 18 AB over the course of a season.

alohafri
07-04-2002, 10:22 AM
Frank just doesn't seem to have a clue when he comes to the plate. I'm not saying that to be insulting, but watch him. He moves away from outside pitches. He needs to get his head together.

RedPinStripes
07-04-2002, 10:51 AM
If Frank were hitting .200, he'd still be in the 3 hole. JM won't even move him down in the lineup. He will never sit him. And since Frank is one of JR's adopted kids, he will be the next Harold Baines, but for longer. I think Frank can get back into a good rythem, but i think we're all going to be boo-ing him in his later years unless he retires after this contract.

RKMeibalane
07-04-2002, 02:57 PM
Frank needs to be moved to the number five spot in the order. When he was hitting in that spot earlier in the year, he hit well, and it seemed for a time as though he was going to raise his batting average by several points.

Manuel moved Frank back to the three hole because Maggs was struggling there, but I don't think this had anything to do with Ordonez hitting in that spot. Remember, the first game Manuel used that new lineup was when Magglio injured his back chasing a ball in the outfield against the Angels. That was the main reason he was struggling. Why Manuel didn't notice this is beyond me.