PDA

View Full Version : Ozzie's thoughts heading into ST


Ranger
02-12-2011, 03:32 PM
I rarely start a thread here, but thought some of you would like to take a listen to this:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/02/12/ozzie-thinks-sox-best-with-sale-in-bullpen/

I thought there was some good stuff in here regarding his thoughts on Sale, the batting order, and his feelings about the Morel-Teahen thing (I think you can read between the lines with what he says on that).

JermaineDye05
02-12-2011, 03:36 PM
The thing that I like is that he's saying that Rios-Dunn-Konerko are his 3-4-5 right now.

I was concerned when I was hearing Dunn as #3 earlier this offseason.

dickallen15
02-12-2011, 03:48 PM
The thing that I like is that he's saying that Rios-Dunn-Konerko are his 3-4-5 right now.

I was concerned when I was hearing Dunn as #3 earlier this offseason.
It depends what Rios you are getting. He was outstanding the first half of last season, but pretty bad the second half

house215
02-12-2011, 03:56 PM
Nice interview. Next time you get a chance with him, tell him the Sox fans want his kids to ****.

asindc
02-12-2011, 04:17 PM
It depends what Rios you are getting. He was outstanding the first half of last season, but pretty bad the second half

Since neither Dunn or Konerko are ideal #3 hitters, beginning the season with Rios there is a no-brainer to me. I'm hoping that both he and TCQ hit well enough that Ozzie can decide between the two.

A. Cavatica
02-12-2011, 04:21 PM
The lineup Ozzie shared scares me, because Teahen is still in it.

Lip Man 1
02-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Sale in the bullpen works for me.

Lip

Ranger
02-12-2011, 05:25 PM
The lineup Ozzie shared scares me, because Teahen is still in it.

He said Morel/Teahen maybe. At he had them batting 9th. Nothing really to be scared of.

Brian26
02-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Ozzie shared the lineup he has in mind too.Expect to see Gordon Beckham, Alex Rios, Adam Dunn, Paul Konerko, possibly Carlos Quentin, A.J. Pierzynski, Mark Teahan, and a couple other favorites on the lineup.

Huh? Who writes this crap, and does it get proof-read before being posted?

SOXSINCE'70
02-12-2011, 05:30 PM
The thing that I like is that he's saying that Rios-Dunn-Konerko are his 3-4-5 right now.

I was concerned when I was hearing Dunn as #3 earlier this offseason.

All I can say is.....well, take it away, Ozzie.

:ozzie

"Tank Got".(Translated: Thank God)

Domeshot17
02-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Totally against Sale in the bullpen. Just think its a short sighted move. He is probably our best reliever, probably better than Thornton honestly, but the kid has potential to be a truly top of the rotation SP. When you have a rotation full of 2s and 3s, having that true, game 1 type starter potentially in the mix is big. Just get this gut feeling wherever Sale goes is where his career is going to shake out. Happened in Texas with Feliz and happened in Boston with Paplebon.

DirtySox
02-12-2011, 05:37 PM
Totally against Sale in the bullpen. Just think its a short sighted move. He is probably our best reliever, probably better than Thornton honestly, but the kid has potential to be a truly top of the rotation SP. When you have a rotation full of 2s and 3s, having that true, game 1 type starter potentially in the mix is big. Just get this gut feeling wherever Sale goes is where his career is going to shake out. Happened in Texas with Feliz and happened in Boston with Paplebon.

Yep.

gregoriop
02-12-2011, 05:47 PM
Huh? Who writes this crap, and does it get proof-read before being posted?


Oh hey, we are possibly going to see TCQ and AJ in the lineup! I know of people being confused on whether to use 1 space after a sentence or two, but here comes 0!

Daver
02-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Totally against Sale in the bullpen. Just think its a short sighted move. He is probably our best reliever, probably better than Thornton honestly, but the kid has potential to be a truly top of the rotation SP.


And with his mechanics he is a shoulder injury waiting to happen.

Brian26
02-12-2011, 06:18 PM
Oh hey, we are possibly going to see TCQ and AJ in the lineup! I know of people being confused on whether to use 1 space after a sentence or two, but here comes 0!

Not "in the lineup"... ON the lineup. :redneck

I'm sure Ranger's interview was outstanding though.

Ranger
02-12-2011, 06:25 PM
Totally against Sale in the bullpen. Just think its a short sighted move. He is probably our best reliever, probably better than Thornton honestly, but the kid has potential to be a truly top of the rotation SP. When you have a rotation full of 2s and 3s, having that true, game 1 type starter potentially in the mix is big. Just get this gut feeling wherever Sale goes is where his career is going to shake out. Happened in Texas with Feliz and happened in Boston with Paplebon.

Nothing shortsighted about it at all. The kid's gonna turn 22 a week before the season starts. There is no reason he can't become a starter at the age of 23. If he can't, it's because he isn't good enough to be a starter, not because they put him in the bullpen first.

I don't see anything wrong with what Texas or Boston did. Feliz may become a starter this year and Papelbon might be best as a reliever anyway.

I agree with the sentiment that injury potential is a concern, which might mean he's better off as a closer.

JB98
02-12-2011, 06:33 PM
Nothing shortsighted about it at all. The kid's gonna turn 22 a week before the season starts. There is no reason he can't become a starter at the age of 23. If he can't, it's because he isn't good enough to be a starter, not because they put him in the bullpen first.

I don't see anything wrong with what Texas or Boston did. Feliz may become a starter this year and Papelbon might be best as a reliever anyway.

I agree with the sentiment that injury potential is a concern, which might mean he's better off as a closer.

Further, the team is built to win this year, not in 2014. Decisions are being made in order to pursue a championship here in 2011. Sale in the bullpen gives the team a better chance of winning this year, IMO.

Foulke You
02-12-2011, 06:45 PM
It depends what Rios you are getting. He was outstanding the first half of last season, but pretty bad the second half
Post All Star Break, Alex Rios hit .258avg, 6HR, 39RBIs. I would call that average. If memory serves, Alex was also battling a sore wrist in the last two months of the season. Not enough to put him on the DL but probably enough to mess with his swing a bit. I'm in favor of Alex hitting in the 3 spot. He is the most versatile hitter in the line up we have. I see Dunn as more of a clean up guy and Paulie in the 5 spot.

rainbow6
02-13-2011, 01:14 AM
I was going to start a thread about this interview until I saw this one..

I loved the way Ozzie was asked point blank about his opinion on Sale; it didn't leave much room for the usual ambiguous answer one might expect. Even Ozzie said, "tough question..."

Ozzie's insights on his opinion of a "set" lineup were also refreshing.

Great job by Chris.

cards press box
02-13-2011, 03:13 AM
And with his mechanics he is a shoulder injury waiting to happen.

If Sale's mechanics pose some problems (and he is unable to correct those problems), then is the bullpen the best spot for him to protect him from injury?

Ranger
02-13-2011, 06:04 AM
I was going to start a thread about this interview until I saw this one..

I loved the way Ozzie was asked point blank about his opinion on Sale; it didn't leave much room for the usual ambiguous answer one might expect. Even Ozzie said, "tough question..."

Ozzie's insights on his opinion of a "set" lineup were also refreshing.

Great job by Chris.

One thing Ozzie was wrong about was the set lineup when he said that 100 different lineups means you're in last place. That's actually not true. 100 different lineups is pretty normal throughout a season. The average for different lineups is about 105 or so. The Yankees and Twins had 99, for example. The Rays had 108 last year, Boston 119. The Sox had exactly 100.

I know it's surprising to some, but it's really not that abnormal to change the lineup on a daily basis.

sox1970
02-13-2011, 06:47 AM
One thing Ozzie was wrong about was the set lineup when he said that 100 different lineups means you're in last place. That's actually not true. 100 different lineups is pretty normal throughout a season. The average for different lineups is about 105 or so. The Yankees and Twins had 99, for example. The Rays had 108 last year, Boston 119. The Sox had exactly 100.

I know it's surprising to some, but it's really not that abnormal to change the lineup on a daily basis.

I know that's the norm, but hopefully all of those guys, with the exception of Pierzynski, will play 150+ games. It means they're healthy, which is the biggest factor in winning this year.

I can already see Ozzie using Teahen too much at 3B just because it's a tough righty on the mound, and he doesn't want Morel to have an O-fer. Meanwhile, Teahen makes an error or doesn't get the ball over to first base fast enough and it costs the Sox a game.

Hopefully Vizquel starts at 3B when Morel sits, but we'll see what Ozzie does. It just goes back to Kenny giving Teahen the extension last year, which was awful. They'd be sitting pretty right now if they could have non-tendered him in December, but oh well.

Tragg
02-13-2011, 09:53 AM
Totally against Sale in the bullpen. Just think its a short sighted move. He is probably our best reliever, probably better than Thornton honestly, but the kid has potential to be a truly top of the rotation SP. When you have a rotation full of 2s and 3s, having that true, game 1 type starter potentially in the mix is big. Just get this gut feeling wherever Sale goes is where his career is going to shake out. Happened in Texas with Feliz and happened in Boston with Paplebon.
Agree.
Start him.

Bobby Thigpen
02-13-2011, 10:04 AM
One thing Ozzie was wrong about was the set lineup when he said that 100 different lineups means you're in last place. That's actually not true. 100 different lineups is pretty normal throughout a season. The average for different lineups is about 105 or so. The Yankees and Twins had 99, for example. The Rays had 108 last year, Boston 119. The Sox had exactly 100.

I know it's surprising to some, but it's really not that abnormal to change the lineup on a daily basis.
:jerry
Great. Now no one will ever use my picture on here anymore.

DirtySox
02-13-2011, 10:11 AM
If Sale's mechanics pose some problems (and he is unable to correct those problems), then is the bullpen the best spot for him to protect him from injury?

As much as people attempt to learn about pitching mechanics and predicting injury potential, it is ultimately a huge crapshoot. I don't think Sale's long term home will be in the pen unless he shows can't get it done as a starter.

Noneck
02-13-2011, 10:13 AM
I am torn between the live for today philosophy by putting him in the pen this year and having him work on his mechanics as a starter in AA.

SOXSINCE'70
02-13-2011, 10:20 AM
And with his mechanics he is a shoulder injury waiting to happen.

This is my fear as well.

dickallen15
02-13-2011, 11:30 AM
Post All Star Break, Alex Rios hit .258avg, 6HR, 39RBIs. I would call that average. If memory serves, Alex was also battling a sore wrist in the last two months of the season. Not enough to put him on the DL but probably enough to mess with his swing a bit. I'm in favor of Alex hitting in the 3 spot. He is the most versatile hitter in the line up we have. I see Dunn as more of a clean up guy and Paulie in the 5 spot.
With a .301 OBP and a .684 OPS. If you call those numbers average, look at Rios' numbers with Toronto when they gave him away for nothing. He was bad the second half. No power, didn't get on base, why would you want that in the 3 hole if you are trying to score runs? Rios' second half was basically the same as AJ Pierzynski's body of work for the entire 2010 campaign, and he wasn't good with the bat.

cards press box
02-13-2011, 01:09 PM
As much as people attempt to learn about pitching mechanics and predicting injury potential, it is ultimately a huge crapshoot. I don't think Sale's long term home will be in the pen unless he shows can't get it done as a starter.

While the Sox may use Chris Sale in the pen this year, I hope he does eventually start for the White Sox. In his appearances last year, Sale reminded me of Randy Johnson. Johnson would have been great as a starter or closer but he helped his teams more as a dominant starter. The same might be true with Sale.

russ99
02-13-2011, 01:09 PM
No worries with Sale. If Peavy can go, he's needed in the pen, If Peavy can't go, he should start.

Next season when we're two or three starters short, then he can start, and he's young enough to make the jump.

The Papelbon example doesn't stand up because the Red Sox acquired better starters, and he stayed in the pen because he wasn't needed in the rotation.

As for Teahen, I'm willing to see how he does this year before making a snap judgments that he's useless. If he were being payed $500K would you guys think the same?

Morel has a lot of promise, but they're throwing him to the wolves. If he's a one-in-a-hundred rookie who can step in and play full time all season, that's a huge bonus. The reality is, most rookies struggle from time to time. Can't wait for it to be pinned on Ozzie, yet again...

DirtySox
02-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Morel has a lot of promise, but they're throwing him to the wolves. If he's a one-in-a-hundred rookie who can step in and play full time all season, that's a huge bonus. The reality is, most rookies struggle from time to time. Can't wait for it to be pinned on Ozzie, yet again...

I expect some bat struggles, but he has substantial value with the glove which will offset it a bit. I think he is going to have a fairly long leash because of his defense. His extending playing time at the end of the year shows how Ozzie views him.

gobears1987
02-13-2011, 01:17 PM
Sale has to go to the pen. If you don't put him there, then you leave Thornton as our only effective lefty. I personally think Sale will win the closer role this season.

On the bullpen, I want to see what Santos does in his 2nd season.

gobears1987
02-13-2011, 01:23 PM
I expect some bat struggles, but he has substantial value with the glove which will offset it a bit. I think he is going to have a fairly long leash because of his defense. His extending playing time at the end of the year shows how Ozzie views him.
I'd say the Sox have enough solid hitters that they can afford a hole in the 9 hole if it means solid D at the hot corner.

Domeshot17
02-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Nothing shortsighted about it at all. The kid's gonna turn 22 a week before the season starts. There is no reason he can't become a starter at the age of 23. If he can't, it's because he isn't good enough to be a starter, not because they put him in the bullpen first.

I don't see anything wrong with what Texas or Boston did. Feliz may become a starter this year and Papelbon might be best as a reliever anyway.

I agree with the sentiment that injury potential is a concern, which might mean he's better off as a closer.

I just don't think its smart to use your best SP prospect (and your only legit pitching prospect in the system) as a closer. Texas had a lot of young depth, but they took a guy who was considered by some the best pitching prospect in baseball and no have a dilemma on how to use him.

There is no doubt the 2012 Sox are better with Sale in the pen, but is Chris Sale's best chance to develop into a top flight SP going to be hindered by another year in the pen, then a year of stretching out in AAA, and now its 3 years until hes starting games in Chicago, not 1-1.5.

I don't buy the injury concerns. His mechanics are violent but that is why teams passed on him early. You don't draft him if you think he can't start.

Ive said it before, but where would the Giants be if they made Lincecum a closer? What has bouncing around done for Joba?

Feliz was absolutely sick as a closer, Sale could do the same but would you rather have a great closer or a great number 1 SP. Especially on a team where our only true SP even close to a number 1 is coming off a serious injury. Danks is a fine 2, and Buehrle Jackson Floyd are all fine 3s an 4s, but if by next year we could go into the playoffs with Peavy-Sale-Danks, it would be sick.

Ranger
02-13-2011, 05:15 PM
I just don't think its smart to use your best SP prospect (and your only legit pitching prospect in the system) as a closer. Texas had a lot of young depth, but they took a guy who was considered by some the best pitching prospect in baseball and no have a dilemma on how to use him.

There is no doubt the 2012 Sox are better with Sale in the pen, but is Chris Sale's best chance to develop into a top flight SP going to be hindered by another year in the pen, then a year of stretching out in AAA, and now its 3 years until hes starting games in Chicago, not 1-1.5.

I don't buy the injury concerns. His mechanics are violent but that is why teams passed on him early. You don't draft him if you think he can't start.

Ive said it before, but where would the Giants be if they made Lincecum a closer? What has bouncing around done for Joba?

Feliz was absolutely sick as a closer, Sale could do the same but would you rather have a great closer or a great number 1 SP. Especially on a team where our only true SP even close to a number 1 is coming off a serious injury. Danks is a fine 2, and Buehrle Jackson Floyd are all fine 3s an 4s, but if by next year we could go into the playoffs with Peavy-Sale-Danks, it would be sick.


Again, pitching out of the pen this season isn't going to hurt him in any manner. It's not going to hinder his development or pigeonhole him to the bullpen. Unless, of course, that's where he really belongs.

If Sale ends up being a good closer at the MLB level, it's still a pretty good pick.

DumpJerry
02-13-2011, 05:17 PM
Since the Sox will take a seven run lead into the Ninth Inning in all 162 games this year, it will be a waste of time to have Sale as our Closer. The kid needs to get in some games.

Tragg
02-13-2011, 05:24 PM
I just dread going into the season with Guillen using 3B like he used CF in 2006: putting a butcher out there so that we can get a mediocre bat, instead of a weak one (from a young player), in the lineup. Such clowning cost us big in 2006.

mzh
02-13-2011, 05:29 PM
Again, pitching out of the pen this season isn't going to hurt him in any manner. It's not going to hinder his development or pigeonhole him to the bullpen. Unless, of course, that's where he really belongs.

If Sale ends up being a good closer at the MLB level, it's still a pretty good pick.
This is true, but it is also true that you don't want him to end up in a similar situation as a Joba or Feliz. If you have a choice between a dominant starter or a dominant closer you pick the starter every time. It's pretty clear that Sale already has the command to be a dominant reliever, which is why I don't think it would hurt to have him start the year as a starter, whether at the big club or in the minors, and see where it goes from there. Having him start is a low risk/high reward opportunity, IMO. If he isn't that good, send him down to the minors and Peavy is back by the middle of May or June (which is what the club seems to be thinking), worst case scenario. If he doesn't struggle and looks great, then we have another great starter and we can get a kings ransom from a team like the Yankees for Floyd or Jackson if need be.

I just don't see what harm can be done by beginning the year as a starter. We have the starting pitching to fill in if he needs seasoning in AAA. The bullpen is ALWAYS a total crapshoot. If Sale starts, for all we know we could catch lightning in a bottle with Will Ohman or Greg Infante. The 2005 team went through 3 closers, and was propelled by incredible career years by guys you never saw it coming from. Point is, you can't plan out how everything works 2 months before it happens. Sometimes you just gotta take a little leap of faith and hope it works out with some of these guys. This team is too talented overall to completely miss a la 2007.

Tragg: I'm not sure where you're coming from here. If anything, Teahen is 3rd on the depth chart behind a ++ defender and a future HOFer. I don't see many spots for it to be botched :cool:

Domeshot17
02-13-2011, 05:55 PM
Again, pitching out of the pen this season isn't going to hurt him in any manner. It's not going to hinder his development or pigeonhole him to the bullpen. Unless, of course, that's where he really belongs.

If Sale ends up being a good closer at the MLB level, it's still a pretty good pick.

Well, he will be 1.5 season removed from starting and not stretched out. He would probably need a good amount of time in AAA readjusting to starting so in that aspect, yes, it COULD slow him down.

Also, its still a good pick but not nearly as good.

Furthermore, Sale is a different pitcher in the rotation. We hardly saw him really utilize his change out of the bullpen, which was regarded as a plus pitch coming into the draft.

There is the real possibility, as of now, Sale could be a waste of talent in the pen. He may need to end up there, but to make that decision without ever seeing him start is foolish.

I do agree that in the small scope of 2012, we do need him in the pen as of now. Thornton may be the best set up man in the AL, but he may not be in the top 5 best closers. Santos was really solid but year 2 can be tough on young relievers. His stuff is wicked though. Personally I think he is the long term closer answer. Crain hopefully stays solid. Hes a food 7th inning guy. Hopefully Pena isn't relied upon to much because he really wasn't good last year. ERA over 5, terrible as a starter (4.85 ERA as a RP, ERA over 6 as an SP) and a bad K:BB ratio. We need the 7th 8th 9th to be locked up without Pena coming near it.

We have some crapshoot kids who may make it to fill out. I was shocked we non tendered Threets. Injury problems yes but he was very solid in his stint here.

I am just nervous, there are a lot more guys who end up like Joba and Paplebon then do Wainwright. Especially with a manager who can't claim developing and handling rookies as a strength.

DumpJerry
02-13-2011, 06:12 PM
I need to listen to the segment again, but did Ozzie comment on the most pressing issue facing Chicago sports today:

Is Jay Cutler "tough?"

Daver
02-13-2011, 07:37 PM
There is the real possibility, as of now, Sale could be a waste of talent in the pen. He may need to end up there, but to make that decision without ever seeing him start is foolish.


They have seen him start, they did scout him before he was drafted, and chose to put him in the pen from day one. The White Sox got lucky with the last starter they had on the verge of playing MLB with poor mechanics, they traded Brandon McCarthy.

mzh
02-13-2011, 07:50 PM
They have seen him start, they did scout him before he was drafted, and chose to put him in the pen from day one. The White Sox got lucky with the last starter they had on the verge of playing MLB with poor mechanics, they traded Brandon McCarthy.
So because Viciedo or Morel played on the bench down the stretch last year the Sox have chosen to make them bench players for life :scratch:

Domeshot17
02-13-2011, 08:02 PM
They have seen him start, they did scout him before he was drafted, and chose to put him in the pen from day one. The White Sox got lucky with the last starter they had on the verge of playing MLB with poor mechanics, they traded Brandon McCarthy.

You do realize he went straight to the pen as an incentive to sign earlier correct?

Domeshot17
02-13-2011, 08:03 PM
So because Viciedo or Morel played on the bench down the stretch last year the Sox have chosen to make them bench players for life :scratch:

Facts are useless.

Daver
02-13-2011, 08:12 PM
So because Viciedo or Morel played on the bench down the stretch last year the Sox have chosen to make them bench players for life :scratch:

In Viciedo's case you might be on to something.

Daver
02-13-2011, 08:13 PM
You do realize he went straight to the pen as an incentive to sign earlier correct?

He agreed to go to the pen on the promise of an early call up, which he got, I don't recall any agreement that he be a starter when called up.

Frater Perdurabo
02-13-2011, 08:16 PM
He agreed to go to the pen on the promise of an early call up, which he got, I don't recall any agreement that he be a starter when called up.

OK, so do you think Sale's mechanics need improvement? If so, what is he doing wrong, what does he need to do to improve, and do you think Coop can fix it?

mzh
02-13-2011, 08:30 PM
He agreed to go to the pen on the promise of an early call up, which he got, I don't recall any agreement that he be a starter when called up.
In fact there was an agreement that he would get a chance to break camp as a starter, IIRC.

canOcorn
02-13-2011, 09:04 PM
It depends what Rios you are getting. He was outstanding the first half of last season, but pretty bad the second half

Exactly. A sub .700 OPS doesn't exactly strike fear as a 3 hole hitter.

My view on this Sale business is:

He's not going to help the team in any manner as a starter this year. I don't want some guy, who showed command issues last year, being on some 95 pitch limit and learning his trade up here. He needs a full year in the minors to be an effective SP for the Sox. Two pitch, pitchers, rarely succeed in a starting role, unless their stuff is sensational and Sale doesn't have the stamina to have a +fastball deep into games.

Lip Man 1
02-13-2011, 09:15 PM
MZH:

To me the "harm" of using Sale as a starter is the fact that the bullpen without him is one arm short. I can live with somebody making spot starts for a month until Peavy moves back into the rotation.

I can't live with a mediocre bullpen. Sale dramatically improves that vital area.

Lip

Ranger
02-13-2011, 09:18 PM
This is true, but it is also true that you don't want him to end up in a similar situation as a Joba or Feliz. If you have a choice between a dominant starter or a dominant closer you pick the starter every time. It's pretty clear that Sale already has the command to be a dominant reliever, which is why I don't think it would hurt to have him start the year as a starter, whether at the big club or in the minors, and see where it goes from there. Having him start is a low risk/high reward opportunity, IMO. If he isn't that good, send him down to the minors and Peavy is back by the middle of May or June (which is what the club seems to be thinking), worst case scenario. If he doesn't struggle and looks great, then we have another great starter and we can get a kings ransom from a team like the Yankees for Floyd or Jackson if need be.

I just don't see what harm can be done by beginning the year as a starter. We have the starting pitching to fill in if he needs seasoning in AAA. The bullpen is ALWAYS a total crapshoot. If Sale starts, for all we know we could catch lightning in a bottle with Will Ohman or Greg Infante. The 2005 team went through 3 closers, and was propelled by incredible career years by guys you never saw it coming from. Point is, you can't plan out how everything works 2 months before it happens. Sometimes you just gotta take a little leap of faith and hope it works out with some of these guys. This team is too talented overall to completely miss a la 2007.



The harm would be that they need him in the pen this year, and without him, they're probably not as good. i only say "probably" because there is not even a guarantee that he will be as good this year as he was last. He's still very young, and though talented, there is no way to know if that will remain the same. I think it will, but you never know with young players.

The Sale situation really has nothing to do with Joba or Feliz. Feliz might now become a starter (some people, by the way, think he'll get murdered if he starts because he hasn't been good enough with the change and the breaking ball...they're hoping that comes around, obviously) and Joba probably belongs in the bullpen. If Chris Sale ends up being a career reliever/closer, it's because he's only good enough to be a career reliever/closer. It won't be because he pitched out of the bullpen for a season and some change.

If he's good enough to start, he'll end up being a starter.

Well, he will be 1.5 season removed from starting and not stretched out. He would probably need a good amount of time in AAA readjusting to starting so in that aspect, yes, it COULD slow him down.

Also, its still a good pick but not nearly as good.

Furthermore, Sale is a different pitcher in the rotation. We hardly saw him really utilize his change out of the bullpen, which was regarded as a plus pitch coming into the draft.

There is the real possibility, as of now, Sale could be a waste of talent in the pen. He may need to end up there, but to make that decision without ever seeing him start is foolish.

I do agree that in the small scope of 2012, we do need him in the pen as of now. Thornton may be the best set up man in the AL, but he may not be in the top 5 best closers. Santos was really solid but year 2 can be tough on young relievers. His stuff is wicked though. Personally I think he is the long term closer answer. Crain hopefully stays solid. Hes a food 7th inning guy. Hopefully Pena isn't relied upon to much because he really wasn't good last year. ERA over 5, terrible as a starter (4.85 ERA as a RP, ERA over 6 as an SP) and a bad K:BB ratio. We need the 7th 8th 9th to be locked up without Pena coming near it.

We have some crapshoot kids who may make it to fill out. I was shocked we non tendered Threets. Injury problems yes but he was very solid in his stint here.

I am just nervous, there are a lot more guys who end up like Joba and Paplebon then do Wainwright. Especially with a manager who can't claim developing and handling rookies as a strength.

You can't claim that bullpens are crapshoots, but say one sentence prior "I don't want Pena anywhere near the late innings." If bullpens are crapshoots because individuals' seasons fluctuate and some guys have "lightning in a bottle" seasons, you have to figure the same can happen with Pena. If you're satisfied with hoping for the best, you have to be willing to hope for the best from him, too. If not, you probably want Sale in the bullpen this year.

Again, Joba and Papelbon are where they are because they belong there. As thin as starting pitching is in the majors, don't you think those guys would be starting if they were supposed to be?

It will take exactly one offseason and one spring training for Chris Sale to become a starter...if, in fact, he should be. This really isn't going to hurt him at all. He's getting Major League experience against big league hitters. this isn't damaging his development in the slightest.

Of course, it wouldn't be as good of a pick if he's only a reliever as opposed to a starting pitcher for his career, but that wouldn't make it an unsuccessful pick. Considering the amount of first-round failures in baseball, picking anyone in the first round that becomes a career-long, contributing MLB player is a success.

Ranger
02-13-2011, 09:26 PM
Exactly. A sub .700 OPS doesn't exactly strike fear as a 3 hole hitter.

My view on this Sale business is:

He's not going to help the team in any manner as a starter this year. I don't want some guy, who showed command issues last year, being on some 95 pitch limit and learning his trade up here. He needs a full year in the minors to be an effective SP for the Sox. Two pitch, pitchers, rarely succeed in a starting role, unless their stuff is sensational and Sale doesn't have the stamina to have a +fastball deep into games.

How do you know he doesn't have the stamina for that? That's just not something you can know at this point.

He doesn't necessarily need a full season in the minors as a starter to be ready for MLB. The most crucial thing for him is that he's facing big league hitters which is always more crucial than getting him stretched out. Regardless of what happens to him, the first year as a Major Leaguer for a starting pitcher is almost always a heavy burden because they usually never throw that much in their lives until they make it to this level.

MZH:

To me the "harm" of using Sale as a starter is the fact that the bullpen without him is one arm short. I can live with somebody making spot starts for a month until Peavy moves back into the rotation.

I can't live with a mediocre bullpen. Sale dramatically improves that vital area.

Lip

That's exactly why the Sox are better in 2011 with Sale in the bullpen.

TheVulture
02-13-2011, 11:38 PM
Again, pitching out of the pen this season isn't going to hurt him in any manner. It's not going to hinder his development or pigeonhole him to the bullpen.

I don't see how you can say that. Part of his development is getting stretched out to pitch 7+ innings thirty two times a year. No way is Sale ready to pitch 220 innings and working in the bullpen isn't going to get him there.

Foulke You
02-14-2011, 12:34 AM
That's exactly why the Sox are better in 2011 with Sale in the bullpen.
Agreed. This team is set up to win in a short window that begins as soon as the bell rings in April. You need to do everything you can to set this team up to win now. Worry about Sale's possible future as a starter when it becomes relevant. Right now, this team needs that dominant stuff to complement Thornton, Crain, and Santos. As long as Peavy is on track for a May return, we can find someone to start 3 games in April.

Ranger
02-14-2011, 01:40 AM
I don't see how you can say that. Part of his development is getting stretched out to pitch 7+ innings thirty two times a year. No way is Sale ready to pitch 220 innings and working in the bullpen isn't going to get him there.

First of all, 220 innings isn't the norm in the American League. That number is outstanding. The Sox haven't had a guy pitch that many innings since '05.

Second, he'll barely be 22 when the season starts. He's still a kid and is at a pretty good pace having already gotten some experience here. He's not behind in development and a full season in the minor leagues isn't going to make him more ready for it. Hell, 4 seasons in the minors still won't prepare him for having to pitch 160+ (It's pretty tough to get major league innings in the minors). He won't get that until he pitches in the big leagues for a year or two. Ask John Danks.

If (and I do mean IF) Chris Sale is destined to be a starter for his career, he and the Sox will be in good shape if he's ready to handle 180 innings by the age of 24 (he should be able to give them 140 at 23 years old). That's what he would be on pace to do if they decide to make him a starter for next year. Trust me, this year isn't going to hurt him, and if he's any good, he's going to make the Sox better in the pen. Which brings me to:

Third (and most important), the bullpen is where he makes the White Sox better for THIS YEAR. That's where they need him and that's where he should be. If he has to start for an extended period of time, the Sox won't be as good as they would be if they could keep him in the pen.

whitesoxfan1986
02-14-2011, 08:18 AM
Sale's mechanics scare the hell out of me. They remind me of Prior and Strasburg's mechanics, and it was only a matter of time before shoulder/elbow injuries messed up Prior's arm, and Strasburg ended up blowing out his elbow in about 250 professional innings. Another guy who has the inverted W mechanics is Shaun Marcum, he had TJ surgery in 2009. I really can't think of anyone in the last 10 years, when this motion has become popular, who used it and didn't have arm problems who made the majors.

On to Sale's talent:
On one hand, having a guy who throws high 90s from the left side, with a good slider is awesome, but he didn't use his reportedly best pitch, the changeup out of the pen.
I don't know how much velocity he'll lose starting I'd guess that he'd probably be around 93-95 mph as a starter, which means his fastball will not be as overpowering as a high 90s one, but still excellent velocity for a LHP as as starter. His low 3/4 arm angle is a little worrisome as a starter because it may be easier for RH hitters to pick up his slider, I don't think it is as good as Randy Johnson's because Sale's slider doesn't have nearly as much velocity.
If Sale had more conventional low 3/4 mechanics, I'd think he would be probably one of if not the top LHP prospects in MLB, and he wouldn't have made it to pick 13 last summer.
I think the best option for the Sox, is to start him this season until Peavy comes back, or, as crazy as it may seem, use him as a piece to get a real ace pitcher who comes on the market. Call up Seattle and offer him in a package for Felix along with Viciedo and or Mitchell, and Escobar(I do know, however, that even the best package that the Sox have to offer might get laughed at) Yes, any injury would be a problem, see what happens the farm sucks. **** it, we're "all in", so empty whatever is left to see if Seattle bites.

DonnieDarko
02-14-2011, 09:58 AM
Wait, Sale pitches with the inverted W? I...didn't really notice that. o_O

I also have to say that I agree with Ranger on this one. I don't see how one year in the bullpen hurts him in any way, shape or form. Next year (or maybe even this year!) we'll find out I suppose if he can be an MLB starter and go from there. Considering that we're in "win now" mode, he helps this team the best in the bullpen, and should be placed there.

hawkjt
02-14-2011, 10:48 AM
Sale should be in the bullpen this year. Even if Peavy does not come back until June, that would be about 7-8 starts for a 5th starter...Sox can live with one of their other guys for that many starts,if our offense is as good as we hope.

I will say that the schedule this year is very tight,with only 19 off days(including All Star break) in 181 days. April and May are very heavily scheduled this year with 58 games in the first 62 days....ouch.

Season wraps up on 9/28,so I guess they want earlier World Series this year,eh?

Sox need to find that 5th starter for at least 8 starts if Peavy is not ready in April and May:o:....get well soon,Jake:D:

Lip Man 1
02-14-2011, 10:55 AM
Hawk:

The "condensed" schedule this year (including less off days in the post season) is designed to end the World Series before the snow starts falling over a large portion of the U.S.

You're right...that's the reason it was designed like it was.

Of course instead of packing games into a short window, the owners could have done the logical thing and cut the schedule to 154 games or 145...but again this is MLB we are talking about.

:D:

Lip

FielderJones
02-14-2011, 12:34 PM
Wait, Sale pitches with the inverted W? I...didn't really notice that.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseball/pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg
Here's an inverted W

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-L0ZkDIFNVijsuqm4qePCxqA_6Cf35xrL-avkisfE657mNiRA
I'm having a tough time finding something similar for Sale. :shrug:

doublem23
02-14-2011, 12:37 PM
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseball/pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg
Here's an inverted W

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-L0ZkDIFNVijsuqm4qePCxqA_6Cf35xrL-avkisfE657mNiRA
I'm having a tough time finding something similar for Sale. :shrug:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2011-01/58923045.jpg

FielderJones
02-14-2011, 12:39 PM
http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/chris-sale.jpg?w=195&h=146&crop=1

Yup. :(:

DirtySox
02-14-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm having a tough time finding something similar for Sale. :shrug:

He does have an inverted W in his mechanics, but it is still absolutely inconclusive that it is a precursor to injury. Anyone here assuredly claiming Sale is a greater injury risk than other pitchers is talking out of there ass. Pitchers who have "perfect" mechanics can be just as injury prone as those who don't. There are so many more variables in play. Once again, pitcher injury potential is a huge crapshoot.

Daver
02-14-2011, 12:47 PM
He does have an inverted W in his mechanics, but it is still absolutely inconclusive that it is a precursor to injury. Anyone here assuredly claiming Sale is a greater injury risk than other pitchers is talking out of there ass. Pitchers who have "perfect" mechanics can be just as injury prone as those who don't. There are so many more variables in play. Once again, pitcher injury potential is a huge crapshoot.

There are known ways to correct mechanics to minimize the chance of injury, it involves spreading the explosive shock of throwing a pitch over the entire body as opposed to minimizing it to the upper body. Sale throws from his shoulder, and not from his legs, so all the energy to throw comes from above the waist, ask a kinseologist his opinion on it.

It is not a crap shoot, but I realize it helps your argument to believe it is.

whitesoxfan1986
02-14-2011, 01:09 PM
There are known ways to correct mechanics to minimize the chance of injury, it involves spreading the explosive shock of throwing a pitch over the entire body as opposed to minimizing it to the upper body. Sale throws from his shoulder, and not from his legs, so all the energy to throw comes from above the waist, ask a kinseologist his opinion on it.

It is not a crap shoot, but I realize it helps your argument to believe it is.
This is a very good explanation. I believe that this was the knock on Strasburg in 2009 as well, that he throws with his upper body. Also I read something about how the inverted W motion has a timing delay where the elbow/forearm is behind where the arm should be when the pitcher plants his front leg. The pitcher has to speed the arm up to deliver the ball, causing the pitcher to put more stress on the shoulder/elbow, hence the throwing with the upper body.

russ99
02-14-2011, 02:46 PM
This is a very good explanation. I believe that this was the knock on Strasburg in 2009 as well, that he throws with his upper body. Also I read something about how the inverted W motion has a timing delay where the elbow/forearm is behind where the arm should be when the pitcher plants his front leg. The pitcher has to speed the arm up to deliver the ball, causing the pitcher to put more stress on the shoulder/elbow, hence the throwing with the upper body.

I really didn't get the mechanics concerns with Sale before, but that's a heck of an explanation, and those pictures hammer it home.

Would Sale end up with more strain on his shoulder/upper arm starting every 5th/6th day or relieving an inning every 2nd/3rd day?

Also, if Coop can fix him, would that take him out of his comfort zone and mess up his pitches/performance?

After seeing this, maybe it would be best to leave him in AAA to work out his mechanics, then start next year.

gobears1987
02-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Brandon McCarthy also had the inverted W. I believe that is one of the reasons KW traded him for Danks. He's battled injuries from stress fractures in his shoulder to elbow injuries. It's no shocker since he was compared to Prior when he was called up.

fram40
02-14-2011, 03:20 PM
third (and most important), the bullpen is where he makes the white sox better for this year. That's where they need him and that's where he should be. If he has to start for an extended period of time, the sox won't be as good as they would be if they could keep him in the pen.

+1000.

Jerko
02-14-2011, 03:34 PM
Wouldn't an inverted W just be an M? I like Sale in the pen, he just doesn't "look" like he can hold up as a starter. I also shudder when I think of a 4 man rotation and the 5th is a crapshoot. (the Danny Wright days)

whitesoxfan1986
02-14-2011, 05:25 PM
I really didn't get the mechanics concerns with Sale before, but that's a heck of an explanation, and those pictures hammer it home.

Would Sale end up with more strain on his shoulder/upper arm starting every 5th/6th day or relieving an inning every 2nd/3rd day?

Also, if Coop can fix him, would that take him out of his comfort zone and mess up his pitches/performance?

After seeing this, maybe it would be best to leave him in AAA to work out his mechanics, then start next year.
If they're going to rebuild his mechanics, then I think it's best to start him in A+ or AA. This, I believe is why Law and some other scouting publications had him in the supplemental round level last season before the draft, because he would need a mechanics overhaul and you didn't know what that would do to his stuff. If the Sox try to mess with his mechanics, they should take no further look than Randy Johnson, another tall skinny guy, and he had a long career with amazing stuff as most of us know.

Ranger
02-14-2011, 06:33 PM
There are known ways to correct mechanics to minimize the chance of injury, it involves spreading the explosive shock of throwing a pitch over the entire body as opposed to minimizing it to the upper body. Sale throws from his shoulder, and not from his legs, so all the energy to throw comes from above the waist, ask a kinseologist his opinion on it.

It is not a crap shoot, but I realize it helps your argument to believe it is.

You're right. It really isn't a crapshoot as there are mechanics that will decrease the odds of getting injured. It doesn't mean that Sale will definitely be injured someday, but if his mechanics are off, the likelihood is increased.

whitesoxfan1986
02-14-2011, 06:39 PM
You're right. It really isn't a crapshoot as there are mechanics that will decrease the odds of getting injured. It doesn't mean that Sale will definitely be injured someday, but if his mechanics are off, the likelihood is increased.
I'm hoping that if the Sox don't decide to mess with his mechanics that he'd end up having a career similar to Peavy in terms of durability, who was pretty durable from ages 22-26 with terrible mechanics and had short stints on the DL at ages 27-28 until he finally broke down with a major injury at age 29.(excluding the freak injury in 2009)

khan
02-14-2011, 06:53 PM
No worries with Sale. If Peavy can go, he's needed in the pen, If Peavy can't go, he should start.

Next season when we're two or three starters short, then he can start, and he's young enough to make the jump.

The Papelbon example doesn't stand up because the Red Sox acquired better starters, and he stayed in the pen because he wasn't needed in the rotation.
Over the longer term, I'd definitely prefer Sale in the rotation. Starting pitchers are usually worth more than relievers to a team. I would have preferred if there was another arm acquired to pitch out of the 'pen.

That said, since it's 2011 or nothing, I suppose we shouldn't care about this year, Sale's health aside.

In 2012, when Jackson and possibly Buehrle are gone, then we can re-visit this discussion of Sale in the 'pen vs. Sale in the rotation. [Assuming the scapular loading placed on Sale's shoulder by his questionable mechanics doesn't cause him to be perma-injured before then.]


As for Teahen, I'm willing to see how he does this year before making a snap judgments that he's useless. If he were being payed $500K would you guys think the same?
[Russ, you're too smart to mis-spell "paid."]

I think "you guys" would have been more reasonable in their expectations had KW actually enabled or allowed Teahen to PROVE his worth before cutting the obese check. Instead, KW is [OVER]paying a crappy bench player, while the best pitcher [and perhaps the best PLAYER] in the roster goes without his justly-due extension. Nothing quite like $14M to a guy who can't catch and can't really hit, right?

So, I think "you guys" are correct to some degree to criticize Teahen's craptacular play and his craptacular contract.

Morel has a lot of promise, but they're throwing him to the wolves. If he's a one-in-a-hundred rookie who can step in and play full time all season, that's a huge bonus. The reality is, most rookies struggle from time to time. Can't wait for it to be pinned on Ozzie, yet again...
Nah, I think "you guys" are reasonable enough to expect the minimum salary rookie to perform like one. Now, if Morel was stupidly given something like $14M over 3 years, and was made the 6th or so highest paid player in the roster like another player that sucks, then I think "you guys" would be more upset.


I mean, it's not like KW stupidly gave Morel a ****-ton of money BEFORE he proved himself or anything like that...

DonnieDarko
02-14-2011, 08:01 PM
So he does pitch with the inverted W.

...well, that really, really sucks!

mbwhitesox
02-15-2011, 12:15 PM
Here's a pretty good article on the Inverted W and why it leads pitchers to be injury prone: http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html

There's also a discussion there about variants of the W, the Inverted L and V (you may notice a familiar name under V). That's not to say Sale is definitely going to get hurt, but it is kind of scary given the injury history of some of these other pitchers.

Going a little further, compare that motion to guys like Danks and Buehrle, who have remained pretty much injury-free throughout their careers (knock on wood):

http://chisoxcollector.com/images/pfimages/danks_16x20.jpghttp://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200809102106760132780-pf.standard.jpg

Clearly the pitching elbow is below the shoulder, which seemed to be the main risk factor for injury for the other pitchers. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but it certainly is an interesting discussion.

FielderJones
02-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Wouldn't an inverted W just be an M?

In most fonts, the W has oblique uprights, and the M has vertical uprights. The pitchers' forearms are in an oblique position.

Zisk77
02-16-2011, 07:18 AM
Exactly. A sub .700 OPS doesn't exactly strike fear as a 3 hole hitter.

My view on this Sale business is:

He's not going to help the team in any manner as a starter this year. I don't want some guy, who showed command issues last year, being on some 95 pitch limit and learning his trade up here. He needs a full year in the minors to be an effective SP for the Sox. Two pitch, pitchers, rarely succeed in a starting role, unless their stuff is sensational and Sale doesn't have the stamina to have a +fastball deep into games.


Sale is NOT a 2 pitch pitcher. He throw fastball, slider, change. However as a reliever he rarely throws a change. Most reliever only utilize 2 pitches.

That being said, I'd use him to close this year and as a starter next year when we lose Jackson and possibly Beurhle.

Carolina Kenny
02-16-2011, 07:49 AM
So he does pitch with the inverted W.

...well, that really, really sucks!

Let's trade him while we can still get something for him and before he gets injured.