PDA

View Full Version : Let's talk about the greatest pitchers in Sox history.


SephClone89
02-11-2011, 07:20 PM
Who's your all-time top five? Who's your #1? Pierce? Walsh? Lyons? Horlen? Peters? Wood? Buehrle? Hoyt? Black Jack?

Have at it.

Boondock Saint
02-11-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm a sucker for the dying art of the knuckleball, so I'm going with Wilhelm as my #1.

LITTLE NELL
02-11-2011, 08:04 PM
Lyons, Faber, Walsh, Pierce and Buerhle.

Bullpen: Thigpen, Wilhelm and Hernandez.

Honorble mention: Wood, Horlen, Peters and Black Jack.

mzh
02-11-2011, 08:14 PM
Walsh
Pierce
Lyons
Wood
Buehrle

Wilhelm
Jenks
Thigpen

EDIT: Tommy John won 288 games. If Blyleven is in the hall John is in my top 5 :P

eriqjaffe
02-14-2011, 09:26 AM
Jose Paniagua
Mike Myers
Brett Prinz
David Wells
Rick White

asindc
02-14-2011, 09:41 AM
Jose Paniagua
Mike Myers
Brett Prinz
David Wells
Rick White

You forgot Billy Koch.

Bobby Thigpen
02-14-2011, 09:53 AM
You forgot Billy Koch.
And Todd Ritchie and Jamie Navarro.

Procol Harum
02-14-2011, 10:02 AM
Walsh
Lyons
Pierce
Wood
McDowell

Hon Mention: Faber, Horlen, Peters

Bullpen: Wilhelm, Thigpen, Wood

Hon. Mention: Fisher, Jenks

Alexei4president
02-14-2011, 11:00 AM
top five for me..going by guys ive seen. im 19

#1 Jack Mcdowell
#2 Mark Buehrle
#3 Keith Foulke
#4 Roberto Hernandez
#5 Bobby Jenks maybe just for what he did in 05 and stuff idk

#6 Kelly Wunsch...jk

FielderJones
02-14-2011, 01:38 PM
Walsh
Lyons
Pierce
Wood
McDowell


:thumbsup:

Those top five work for me as well.

voodoochile
02-14-2011, 02:05 PM
My only thought is that between Black Jack and BurlyMon I'd take BurlyMon because of the length of his tenure. I hope he gets his number retired when he eventually leaves the game.

Noneck
02-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Walsh
Lyons
Pierce
Wood
McDowell



Pierce, Woody and McDowell are the best I have seen. Then how can I dispute 2 HOFers. Although Red Faber was also. I am all in with you.

pmck003
02-14-2011, 03:11 PM
Only using stats/what I've read:

Lyons
Faber
Pierce
Walsh
Wood

Buehrle is close.

If you take the best 4-5 years out of everyone, I'd put McDowell/maybe a closer up there.

downstairs
02-14-2011, 03:50 PM
My only thought is that between Black Jack and BurlyMon I'd take BurlyMon because of the length of his tenure. I hope he gets his number retired when he eventually leaves the game.

I think Buerhle means as much to the Sox as, say, Harold Baines did. So I can see his number being retired. Maybe Konerko too.

SephClone89
02-14-2011, 03:51 PM
My only thought is that between Black Jack and BurlyMon I'd take BurlyMon because of the length of his tenure. I hope he gets his number retired when he eventually leaves the game.

I think Buerhle means as much to the Sox as, say, Harold Baines did. So I can see his number being retired. Maybe Konerko too.

Why is this still a debate? IMO they're both locks for number retirement.

gobears1987
02-14-2011, 04:00 PM
Cicotte needs to be in the discussion at least.

If I'm ranking a top 5, I'd have this

5: Buehrle
4: Blackjack
3: Pierce
2: Cicotte
1: Lyons (if the teams didn't suck he'd be at well over 300 wins)

wassagstdu
02-14-2011, 06:10 PM
In my lifetime: Billy Pierce. Others might have been better for a year or two, but Pierce was the greatest.

Big Hurt so good
02-14-2011, 06:24 PM
Why is this still a debate? IMO they're both locks for number retirement.

I think Konerko is more of a lock as it's possible (though unlikely) he'll hit the 500 HR milestone on the south side, though he'd probably need 1 more year after this contract to reach it (he's at 365 right now)

It all depends on what the criteria is for having a jersey retired by the Sox and, more specifically, how much the '05 World Series plays into it...

if the series is the big determining factor than they both will, and so should Ozzie and A.J. really... if it's also about career stats than Konerko probably and Buehrle unlikely

DumpJerry
02-14-2011, 11:29 PM
I'm very disappointed that the only person who mentioned Hoyt is the OP and he was born three years after LaMarr stopped playing. Are you people asleep at the switch????

LaMarr belongs in the conversation.

Lamp81
02-14-2011, 11:44 PM
The best I've seen since I started following the team in 1977:

Buerhle (Consistency)
Contreras (Best 2 year stretch)
Seaver (1984 & 1985 season are overlooked in his career)
Hoyt (great in 1982 & 1983)
Jenks (most seasons of good closing I've seen in Sox uniform)

Lip Man 1
02-14-2011, 11:46 PM
Dump:

With respect LaMarr had three good seasons. I think to be considered the "greatest" in franchise history you need a tad more years of excellence.

Lip

TommyJohn
02-14-2011, 11:57 PM
I'm very disappointed that the only person who mentioned Hoyt is the OP and he was born three years after LaMarr stopped playing. Are you people asleep at the switch????

LaMarr belongs in the conversation.

I don't think he lasted long enough.

My rotation:

Ted Lyons
Red Faber
Ed Walsh
Billy Pierce
Wilbur Wood

Relievers are a bit trickier, I think there is a dearth of truly great ones.

Hoyt Wilhelm
Rich Gossage (went on to have better years elsewhere, though)
Wilbur Wood (great reliever before he was a starter)
Bob Locker


As for the greatest single season staff I'll cast my vote for 1967-Gary Peters, Joe Horlen, Tommy John, Hoyt Wilhelm, Bob Locker, Wilbur Wood, Don McMahon; a league-leading 2.25 ERA. Give that team two good hitters and they would have run away with the AL pennant.

Dub25
02-15-2011, 12:34 AM
Who's your all-time top five? Who's your #1? Pierce? Walsh? Lyons? Horlen? Peters? Wood? Buehrle? Hoyt? Black Jack?

Have at it.

Before I read the rest of the reply's, here is my lifetime and it is based off of seeing these guys on tv or in person. I was born in 1976 and remember Sox ball as early as 1981.

1- Buehrle... saw the perfect game in person thanks to a buddy that played college ball with Ben Zobrist at Olivet Nazarene. Zobrist played there for 3 years before going to Dallas Baptist which was a D-1 school.

2- Jack McDowell - Black Jack, yes.

3- Alex Fernandez - Another pitcher that JR somehow knew to let walk.
Black Jack falls into this as well.

4- Lamar Hoyt - 1983, do I need say more? Then brought us a sweet fielding SS...

5- Jaime Navarro.... just kidding, great signing Ron Schuler, you thought Clemens was washed up.

For real, Number 5 is Cal Eldred. Why? Again, I said in my lifetime. I could've gone John Danks since I saw him pitch the blackout game in person, could've gone Jason Bere, could've said Estaban Loaisa, Greg Hibbard for striking out Bo Jackson in his prime 4 times in 1 game and I could go on and on. But nobody really stands out so I went with Cal because he was a major part to the start of 2000 playoff team. I believe he started 10-2 before the all star break then all heck broke with his elbow. Never made it back but if he wasn't so solid in the 1st part of 2000 then maybe the Sox don't go to the playoffs.

FielderJones
02-15-2011, 01:50 PM
As for the greatest single season staff I'll cast my vote for 1967-Gary Peters, Joe Horlen, Tommy John, Hoyt Wilhelm, Bob Locker, Wilbur Wood, Don McMahon; a league-leading 2.25 ERA. Give that team two good hitters and they would have run away with the AL pennant.

The greatest single season staff was the 1906 team (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1906/UPCHA01906.htm). Yes, it was the dead-ball era, but that 2.13 team ERA is just sick. Both Walsh and Doc White were under 1.90, and Altrock and Patterson were under 2.10. No wonder they were able to win as Hitless Wonders.

Lip Man 1
02-15-2011, 04:48 PM
It was a completely different game in 1906 than in 1967. I'd go with either the 1964 or 1967 staffs myself.

Lip

TommyJohn
02-15-2011, 09:12 PM
The greatest single season staff was the 1906 team (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1906/UPCHA01906.htm). Yes, it was the dead-ball era, but that 2.13 team ERA is just sick. Both Walsh and Doc White were under 1.90, and Altrock and Patterson were under 2.10. No wonder they were able to win as Hitless Wonders.

How could I forget 1906 or Doc White for my rotation? I go with 1906 for the pre-World War II era, but 1967 for post.

MetroPD
02-15-2011, 11:28 PM
I'm very disappointed that the only person who mentioned Hoyt is the OP and he was born three years after LaMarr stopped playing. Are you people asleep at the switch????

LaMarr belongs in the conversation.
Thankfully someone else said it first. Personal problems aside, he was pretty good. With that being said, Richard Dotson was a pretty arm as well.

sullythered
02-16-2011, 12:17 AM
I'm 31 years old.

Here's my list:

Buehrle
Blackjack
Alex Fernandez
Contreras
Bere (before he got hurt)
Melido Perez

Falstaff
02-16-2011, 02:31 AM
Can't comment on "all time" as not familiar with
ancient White Sox history.
But here are 5 that made big mark in their day
that I will always remember
(no partic order)

1) Alex Fernandez - for a while there he was like a
guaranteed win, had some nice streaks of lights out.

2) Jose Contreras - carried the team thru second half '05
and through WS win. A much bigger factor that historic
season than Buerhle.. Up to the leg injury, he was a monster.

3) Bobby Thigpen - the man gave his arm for this team.

4) Jim Kaat - they thought he was washed up in Minny but
put together a couple 20+ win seasons and always worked
fast, kept it interesting. Really breathed fresh life into the
team.

5) Mark Buerhle - all those no hitters, the perfecto, and the
WS bullpen appearance, not to mention the belly flop slides on
the wet rain delay tarp.

ghostface36
02-16-2011, 09:00 PM
how old are some of you guys?

SI1020
02-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Contreras (Best 2 year stretch)
He was outstanding the last half of 05 and the first half of 06. Other than that, not so good.

thomas35forever
02-16-2011, 10:10 PM
Walsh
Cicotte
Wood
Lyons
Pierce

MILTMAY5
02-17-2011, 12:57 AM
Black Jack (Cy Young winner in 1993, back to back 20 win seasons))
Buehrle (No-Hitter, Perfect Game, relief appearance in the WS)
Thigpen (57 freakin' saves in 1990)
Loaiza (2003 was the best season I can remember from a Sox starter)
Wilbur (won 90 games between 1971-1974, second only to Catfish Hunter)

MrT27
02-17-2011, 02:34 AM
If we are talking about having someone in his prime and single seasons Esteban Loaiza's 2003 season was real special.

Boondock Saint
02-17-2011, 03:12 AM
how old are some of you guys?

BM7B-SeNEhI

remy
02-23-2011, 09:56 PM
What about Tommy John?

chisox77
02-23-2011, 10:29 PM
Lyons
Faber
Walsh
Pierce
Buerhle

Honorable Mention:

Cicotte
McDowell
Wood
Wilhelm
Peters
Horlen
Hoyt
Fernandez
Shaw
John
Jenks
Hernandez
Thigpen

Dick Allen
02-24-2011, 06:26 PM
Some of the "old-timers" here will remember Gary Peters and Juan Pizarro very well. I would include them on my list, not only because they were excellent pitchers, but because they were two of the best hitters on those good-pitch-good-field-no-hit teams. It's too bad Lopez couldn't have found a way to put them in the every-day lineup.(only half-teal there)

PalehosePlanet
02-24-2011, 11:55 PM
Big Ed Walsh's 1.82 career ERA is the best in the history of baseball; His 1.00 career WHIP is second best in baseball history; his 57 shutouts is 11th in baseball history.

In 1908 he led the AL in basically every category, including wins w/40 and Saves w/6. Yeah, this dude was our closer when he didn't start.

In fairness to all of our great pitchers --- and there were many --- there is absolutely no way, IMO, any of them were as good as Big Ed.

billcissell
02-25-2011, 01:31 PM
The top 5 Sox pitchers? Tough question. Lots of possibilities. Based on record, longevity of service with the Sox and performance I'll go with the following:

Ed Walsh
Ted Lyons
Eddie Cicotte
Red Faber
Mark Buehrle

Honorable mention would include:

Doc White
Juan Pizzarro
Jack McDowell
Lamar Hoyt
Hoyt Wilhelm
Bobby Thigpen
Bobby Locker
Joel Horlen
Gary Peters
Wilbur Wood

Special mention to guys like Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jim Kaat, Rich Goosage and several others who only wore a Sox uniform for a few years but had some great numbers and years elsewhere.

FreeBuck12
02-26-2011, 01:03 AM
I love discussing pitchers from every era in baseball, but I think under ANY circumstances that it's difficult to ever "rank" ballplayers from the beginning til now.... there are so many factors that play into the way a ballplayer performs, and there are many reasons why eras are named "the dead ball era," etc.

With that being said, for many reasons my favorite players are from the dead ball era. Eddie Cicotte being one of them. The lengths that these guys went to to pitch as much and as often as they did and still dominate is insane to me.

I guess thats the reason why Christy Matthewson and Walter Johnson will always be two of my favorite players of all time for what they did on the field.

As far as ballplayers that I've personally seen, being only 24 Mark Buehrle is of course one of my favorite Sox pitchers, but do I think hes the "best"? No, I dont.

Railsplitter
02-26-2011, 10:23 AM
Faber
Buerhle
Lyons
Pierce
Wood

Dan H
02-26-2011, 10:51 AM
I think Gary Peters had the best stuff. In the '67 All-Star game, he struck Willie Mays on a the most wicked slider I have ever seen. He also struck out Dick Allen, Roberto Clemente and Orlando Cepeda. This is quite an impressive list of right handed hitters. The trouble with Peters is that injuries ruined his career. But in the mid-'60's, he was one of the best left handeders in the game.

gosox41
02-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Who's your all-time top five? Who's your #1? Pierce? Walsh? Lyons? Horlen? Peters? Wood? Buehrle? Hoyt? Black Jack?

Have at it.


Top 5 starters that I've seen live:

Lamar Hoyt
Britt Burns
Tom Seaver-even if it was the end of his career and he wasn't what he was I read his book and just admired him.
Buehrle
Black Jack

Bull pen:
Foulke
Jenks
Thingpen
Hernandez


Bob

FGarcia34
03-01-2011, 11:03 PM
This would be my list:

#1 - Ted Lyons - He is atop many of the White Sox records, compiling 260 wins over a 23 year long career with the Sox.

#2 - Billy Pierce - Billy pitched 13 years with the White Sox and had 186 victories. He is also the franchise leader in strikeouts with 1,796.

#3 - Ed Walsh - Walsh won 195 games over 13 years with the Sox. He also is the .era leader with a remarkably low 1.81. Thats an unbelievable combination of numbers.

#4 - Mark Buehrle - Mark is entering his 12 season and has won 148 times. Mark is also a two time gold glover and also played an irreplaceable spot on a championship team. Not to mention pitching a no hitter and perfect game.

#5 - Jack McDowell - 'Black Jack' had an incredible stretch with the Sox. Won a cy young and was a truly dominate 'ace' for the White Sox with his career 91 wins over 7 seasons.

HONORABLE MENTION - Jon Garland w/ 8 Seasons and 92 Wins


The 'Pen'

#1 - Bobby Thigpen - The all-time saves leader in franchise history (181) was the showstopper. He even had a ridiculous 57 saves in the 1990 season.

#2 - Keith Foulke - Foulke was dominant. He compiled 178 saves in just 5 and a half years with the Sox. His departure was a sad day for me as a Sox fan.

#3 - Bobby Jenks - There is no denying how good he was with the Sox. Played only 5 full seasons and had 173 saves. Would have easily become the all time saves leader. His initial burst to the MLB stage was one that I won't forget.

#4 - Roberto Hernandez - Roberto was a rock for the Sox in the early to mid-90's. Compiled 161 saves over 6 and a half years.

HONORABLE MENTION - Matt Thornton - 5 YRS 25 Wins 17 SV 2.91 era and will potentially build on his closing numbers.

Procol Harum
03-02-2011, 09:54 AM
FGarcia34--how can you leave Wilbur Wood off of both lists???

TomBradley72
03-02-2011, 03:36 PM
All Time-

Red Faber
Ted Lyons
Ed Walsh
Billy Pierce
Wilbur Wood
Doc White
Ed Cicotte
While I've Been a Fan (1971-current)

Wilbur Wood
Mark Buehrle
Jack McDowell
Roberto Hernandez
Lamarr Hoyt

forrestg
03-02-2011, 11:54 PM
Dick Donovan 16 and 6 in 1959.

Brewski
03-03-2011, 12:02 AM
Dick Donovan 16 and 6 in 1959.

Jon Garland was 18-7 in 2006. I'm just saying.

PennStater98r
03-03-2011, 05:33 PM
Cicotte needs to be in the discussion at least.

If I'm ranking a top 5, I'd have this

5: Buehrle
4: Blackjack
3: Pierce
2: Cicotte
1: Lyons (if the teams didn't suck he'd be at well over 300 wins)

Ed Walsh needs to be on the list... definitely better than your 4 and 5. Walsh has the lowest lifetime ERA of a pitcher inducted in the Hall of Fame...

PennStater98r
03-03-2011, 05:36 PM
The top 5 Sox pitchers? Tough question. Lots of possibilities. Based on record, longevity of service with the Sox and performance I'll go with the following:

Ed Walsh
Ted Lyons
Eddie Cicotte
Red Faber
Mark Buehrle

Honorable mention would include:

Doc White
Juan Pizzarro
Jack McDowell
Lamar Hoyt
Hoyt Wilhelm
Bobby Thigpen
Bobby Locker
Joel Horlen
Gary Peters
Wilbur Wood

Special mention to guys like Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jim Kaat, Rich Goosage and several others who only wore a Sox uniform for a few years but had some great numbers and years elsewhere.

Nice job on Doc White - I was wondering why we waited so long before mentioning him.

doublem23
03-03-2011, 06:18 PM
Ed Walsh needs to be on the list... definitely better than your 4 and 5. Walsh has the lowest lifetime ERA of a pitcher inducted in the Hall of Fame...

He also played his entire career in the Deadball Era.

SI1020
03-03-2011, 08:25 PM
Dick Donovan 16 and 6 in 1959. That would be 1957. I remember as that was the first year I seriously followed the Sox. Billy Pierce and Dick Donovan made up the most formidable 1-2 SP combination in the American League from 1955-58. Both slumped in the pennant year of 59, while Early Wynn and Bob Shaw excelled.

Shoeless_Jim
03-03-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm a sucker for the dying art of the knuckleball, so I'm going with Wilhelm as my #1.

that art is dead. which makes Wilhelm that much better

SI1020
03-03-2011, 08:34 PM
He also played his entire career in the Deadball Era. That's one reason why I like ERA+. Ed Walsh at 146 is tied for 8th best in the history of MLB. He is IMHO by far the best ever to pitch for the Sox. His career was comparatively short, but most impressive nonetheless.

TommyJohn
03-03-2011, 09:25 PM
He also played his entire career in the Deadball Era.


The thread title says "Sox History" which is 1901 to the present. That includes the deadball era. There are no qualifiers.

flo-B-flo
03-04-2011, 12:43 AM
Wilbur Wood, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters, Hoyt Wilhelm, Buerle, Didn't see Billy Pierce but my Dad always said he was the best starter in Sox history........Off Topic: My Dad once told me he thought that Warren Spahn was the greatest pitcher in history. Followed by Nolan Ryan........

PennStater98r
03-04-2011, 05:44 PM
He also played his entire career in the Deadball Era.

If your lifetime ERA is the best in the history of baseball and your WHIP is the second best in the history of baseball - it doesn't matter what era you played in. You belong on the top five pitchers of any team's pitchers IMO. Is he one of the best of all time - of course not. Walter Johnson is one of the only pitchers I'd promote as a top five all time from the deadball era