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Jerry_Manuel
07-02-2002, 08:48 AM
Same old garbage.

Crede, who's hitting .307 at Triple-A Charlotte with 19 home runs and a .575 slugging percentage, has been waiting for a chance to prove himself for more than two years. Will that day ever arrive?

"He's clearly ready to play in the major leagues," Williams said. "One thing is that he has been battling a sore foot over the last couple weeks. I'm kind of looking for some stability here at the major-league level in terms of the lineups we put out and the consistency of the play here. If you add another player to that mix right now, I'm a little concerned frankly how that will sit with this club."

Crede's arrival would mean less playing time for Jose Valentin, Royce Clayton and Tony Graffanino, the veterans whom Williams does not want to upset. When Crede comes up again, the Sox want him to play every day at third.

"It is clear that if something happens or if there is a need, this is a guy who has shown he is ready," Williams said. "A lot of people said last year he was ready. He had a .275 year at Charlotte, and really didn't have the power numbers to go along, playing in a small ballpark. More importantly, we wanted to get him to a point to where he could have immediate success in the big leagues, like the success Magglio [Ordonez] and Carlos Lee had when they came up.

"In order to do that, you have to have a shorter swing than [Crede] had, and you have to have the ability to drive the ball to right-center field so you can battle against some of the breaking stuff in the major leagues. Now he has performed and made some of the adjustments to the point where he's pretty darn close to being the player we all thought he was."

raul12
07-02-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Same old garbage.



but at the same time, he has no problem bringing up harris and pretty much not playing him and sending ginter down when he didn't deserve too. idiot, with that logic, he'd never make a trade to improve the club too--oh wait, that IS going to be the case. stupid me.

Jerry_Manuel
07-02-2002, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by raul12
but at the same time, he has no problem bringing up harris and pretty much not playing him and sending ginter down when he didn't deserve too. idiot, with that logic, he'd never make a trade to improve the club too--oh wait, that IS going to be the case. stupid me.

They brought up Harris because they need an extra player. Ginter was really the only pitcher they could send down.

duke of dorwood
07-02-2002, 09:39 AM
ONLY this bunch would try a "shorten" a 2 time player of the years swing.

34rancher
07-02-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


They brought up Harris because they need an extra player. Ginter was really the only pitcher they could send down.
Not to mention that Harris has the speed for pinch-running, which Crede does not have much of. On top of that if needed Harris could have played more than one position. I also wonder if Harris had more options than Crede. If I am not mistaken, I believe that Crede would be out of options, so next time he is here, he is here for good (Anyone know this for sure?).

Randar68
07-02-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher

Not to mention that Harris has the speed for pinch-running, which Crede does not have much of. On top of that if needed Harris could have played more than one position. I also wonder if Harris had more options than Crede. If I am not mistaken, I believe that Crede would be out of options, so next time he is here, he is here for good (Anyone know this for sure?).

You are correct about the options, I do believe.


As for the shortened swing comment. I actually agreed with this. However, he had shortened it pretty well by the end of last year, and this season is only proving that to be the case, as he's been on fire almost from day 1.

raul12
07-02-2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher

Not to mention that Harris has the speed for pinch-running, which Crede does not have much of. On top of that if needed Harris could have played more than one position. I also wonder if Harris had more options than Crede. If I am not mistaken, I believe that Crede would be out of options, so next time he is here, he is here for good (Anyone know this for sure?).

and how many times did we use that pinch running speed? hmmm....

but you are correct about the "out-of-options" for crede. i wasn't so much comparing the actual call-ups--just kw's statement that he doesn't want to change the roster but at the same time changing it. oh well, i'm sure it all makes sense with a little bit of :gulp:

Viva Magglio
07-02-2002, 10:10 AM
KW is such an incompetent GM. He is going to kill our franchise, if not set it back ten years. According to Boers & Bernsie, KW is not calling up Joe Crede because he's afraid it would offend José Valentín, Tony Graffanino, and Royce Clayton.

:chunks

Jerry_Manuel
07-02-2002, 10:11 AM
See the Williams speaks on Crede thread.

Randar68
07-02-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by raul12


and how many times did we use that pinch running speed? hmmm....

but you are correct about the "out-of-options" for crede. i wasn't so much comparing the actual call-ups--just kw's statement that he doesn't want to change the roster but at the same time changing it. oh well, i'm sure it all makes sense with a little bit of :gulp:

Now we're just being too critical, perhaps out of boredom. Look, they were going into 2 or 3 straight series in NL parks and wanted an extra guy off the bench. Harris and Ginter both had options available, so they were the obvious choices. There is no reason whatsoever to bitch about this move other than to pick and probe for more reason to whine about management...

Kilroy
07-02-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by raul12
...i wasn't so much comparing the actual call-ups--just kw's statement that he doesn't want to change the roster but at the same time changing it. oh well, i'm sure it all makes sense with a little bit of :gulp:

Lemme see... Bring up Harris for a week in case he's needed, or bring up Crede, a player that you can't just send back down and who you want in your lineup every day? Which would be more of a change?

hold2dibber
07-02-2002, 10:13 AM
I actually think KW is making some sense here, although it is a mess of his own making. For people who think Crede should be called up, how would you clear roster space?

Do you simply release Clayton and eat his salary? This doesn't seem to be the best option to me because (1) he may have trade value if a contender losses a starting shortstop to injury down the line; (2) Clayton is our best fielding shortstop; and (3) if Clayton's recent hitting streak continues, like it did in the 2nd half last year, he can be a valuable contributor.

Do you release or demote Graffanino? He is an ideal utility guy who can play every position on the diamond (which Crede can't do) and he has proven to be a valuable offensive weapon on occassion.

Do you demote a pitcher, maybe Ginter or Glover, to make room? With this starting rotation, I think we need 12 pitchers.

Do you demote Rowand or Liefer? I don't know if either of them have any options left, plus Rowand has wheels and is a good defensive outfielder, and Liefer is our only left handed bat off the bench.

There just doesn't seem to be an easy solution to the numbers crunch. I agree that Crede deserves to be playing every day in the majors. I'm just not sure how to get him here, and I understand KW's dilemma in that regard. Again, he wouldn't be in this mess if he hadn't traded for Clayton in the first place (and he'd have some extra $ to spend to get us another starting pitcher).

Jerry_Manuel
07-02-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Do you simply release Clayton and eat his salary?

Yes, but it won't happen. Nobody wants Clayton.

raul12
07-02-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Lemme see... Bring up Harris for a week in case he's needed, or bring up Crede, a player that you can't just send back down and who you want in your lineup every day? Which would be more of a change?

you're hurting my feelings!!! :whiner: :whiner: :)

but, i can just see it now--two years from now, harris is playing well, but we can't bring him up b/c he's out of options b/c we wasted one for two weeks of pine riding.

we each have our own opinions....

kermittheefrog
07-02-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Yes, but it won't happen. Nobody wants Clayton.

Lord I wish we would just dump Clayton and eat the salary. For some reason this outfit thinks he's helping.

voodoochile
07-02-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by raul12


you're hurting my feelings!!! :whiner: :whiner: :)

but, i can just see it now--two years from now, harris is playing well, but we can't bring him up b/c he's out of options b/c we wasted one for two weeks of pine riding.

we each have our own opinions....

Harris will almost definitely be up next season, to take Ray's spot, so your scenario is unlikely.

idseer
07-02-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Lord I wish we would just dump Clayton and eat the salary. For some reason this outfit thinks he's helping.

as it is they'd only have to eat a half years salary. i don't think that should be that hard to swallow considering the benefit of bringing crede up now for a serious shot at the div. title.

raul12
07-02-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Harris will almost definitely be up next season, to take Ray's spot, so your scenario is unlikely.

isn't that what we said last year (and the year before that) about crede? fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

voodoochile
07-02-2002, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by raul12


isn't that what we said last year (and the year before that) about crede? fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

Yeah, but they had guys signed these last two years who were able to play 3B (Perry and Valentin). The Sox really have no one able to be an everyday 2B next year except Graffanino and even if he does beat out Harris for the job, the Sox might keep Harris up as a backup/platoon/PR/PH player, though Hummel would probably make a better choice, IMO.

oldcomiskey
07-02-2002, 11:03 AM
Iknow Ray is up for free agency--I know the trouble ray has from time to time---but when Ray Ray is right---few are better at getting an offense going

voodoochile
07-02-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Iknow Ray is up for free agency--I know the trouble ray has from time to time---but when Ray Ray is right---few are better at getting an offense going

I am FOR, so I agree with you. Wish he would get the chance to retire a White Sox, but with salaries the way they are and with both Konehead and Burly-Mon due for big raises, it is unlikely to happen, IMO...

34 Inch Stick
07-02-2002, 11:22 AM
Not to mention Magglio. On the good side Royce's and Alomar's salaries are done after this year. Valentin and Foulke are done after next year.

kermittheefrog
07-02-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by idseer


as it is they'd only have to eat a half years salary. i don't think that should be that hard to swallow considering the benefit of bringing crede up now for a serious shot at the div. title.

Why can't Royce just be like his overpaid buddy Sandy Alomar and do us the favor of being injured half the time therefore limiting the damage he can do?

Randar68
07-02-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Not to mention Magglio. On the good side Royce's and Alomar's salaries are done after this year. Valentin and Foulke are done after next year.

Royce, Valentin, Clayton, and Alomar make a combined alomst 18 million per year. Lofton will also be gone after this year....

Over this year and next, we are certain to drop almost 20 million in salary.

oldcomiskey
07-02-2002, 11:32 AM
but do you think JR will actually spend the money to get better players--I mean come on guys--we need a third baseman and Scott Rolen is imminently available and probably cheap--which means he will wind up in Atlanta

Randar68
07-02-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
but do you think JR will actually spend the money to get better players--I mean come on guys--we need a third baseman and Scott Rolen is imminently available and probably cheap--which means he will wind up in Atlanta

Not if there's a cheaper alternative by the name of Joe.

I would not spend any money at the third base position on Rolen. We have bigger needs elsewhere.

RKMeibalane
07-02-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Royce, Valentin, Clayton, and Alomar make a combined alomst 18 million per year. Lofton will also be gone after this year....

Over this year and next, we are certain to drop almost 20 million in salary.

This bring up another interesting point. Assuming Lofton is gone after this season, who is the starting CF for next year? Do you think they'll bring up Borchard, or will they give the job to Rowand?

Randar68
07-02-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


This bring up another interesting point. Assuming Lofton is gone after this season, who is the starting CF for next year? Do you think they'll bring up Borchard, or will they give the job to Rowand?


Yeah, let's give the job to a guy with no power, a propensity to hurt himself, and a guy who has 1 walk in about 80 AB's this year while hitting in the low .200's......

Tough choice, I know.....

oldcomiskey
07-02-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Not if there's a cheaper alternative by the name of Joe.

I would not spend any money at the third base position on Rolen. We have bigger needs elsewhere.

and then what do you do if crede cant hit major league pitching---we will have yet another weak bat in the order--I say we trade crede and a young pitcher to philly for rolen

RKMeibalane
07-02-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



Yeah, let's give the job to a guy with no power, a propensity to hurt himself, and a guy who has 1 walk in about 80 AB's this year while hitting in the low .200's......

Tough choice, I know.....

:whiner: :whiner:

You hurt my feelings! Whaaa!

Just kidding. You're right. Let's get Borchard up here as soon as possible.

raul12
07-02-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


:whiner: :whiner:

You hurt my feelings! Whaaa!

Just kidding. You're right. Let's get Borchard up here as soon as possible.

I pity da fool who makes fun o' me.

i think there's much less of a problem with "rushing" positional players as opposed to pitchers. assuming there's no other legit option to pick up a CF (trade, FA) borchard might be our best bet. crash test dummy is not an everyday option. then again, what do i know.

idseer
07-02-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Royce, Valentin, Clayton, and Alomar make a combined alomst 18 million per year. Lofton will also be gone after this year....

Over this year and next, we are certain to drop almost 20 million in salary.

but how much gets added to everyone else's salary? doesn't magglio's go way up? doesn't konerko get more? doesn't buehrle get a LOT more? add all the raises THEN how much is actually dropped in salary.

hold2dibber
07-02-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by idseer


but how much gets added to everyone else's salary? doesn't magglio's go way up? doesn't konerko get more? doesn't buehrle get a LOT more? add all the raises THEN how much is actually dropped in salary.

They already locked up Maggs with a relatively long term deal this off season (five years, I believe). PK and Buehrle will be in line for raises, but with Valentin, Durham, Clayton and Alomar leaving within the next two years, I think they'll pretty much be a wash. Of course, if Garland keeps improving, he'll be in line for a big up in a year or two, too. It sure ain't easy being a small market team!

baggio202
07-02-2002, 03:53 PM
still seems to be some misconceptions on how options work...its confusing..i think (lol) i just figured them out myself thanks to that question being answered at espn...

once you put a guy on your 40 man roster..you have 3 years of options..not 3 moves ....so crede can come up and go back down as many times as we want this year...this is his 3rd year on the 40 man roster..so next year he either makes the big club or if we send him back to charlotte we risk losing him...if im wrong someone please enlighten me cause it is confusing