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DirtySox
01-27-2011, 12:02 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/190827556/jon_heyman_normal.jpg
SI_JonHeyman (http://twitter.com/#%21/SI_JonHeyman) Jon Heyman
#chisox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23chisox) considering freddy garcia. they like him. issue is return of peavy (june maybe) would make it 6 starters.
12 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/SI_JonHeyman/status/30683609622913024)

kittle42
01-27-2011, 12:21 PM
How is Peavy's return even an issue? He comes back, and you get rid of someone. Can't just sit around shorthanded til June.

doublem23
01-27-2011, 12:23 PM
How is Peavy's return even an issue? He comes back, and you get rid of someone. Can't just sit around shorthanded til June.

Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

I know JR and the Sox have already spent a ton of money but how can you build a $130 M baseball team and then cheap out on the last starter?

SephClone89
01-27-2011, 12:24 PM
How is Peavy's return even an issue? He comes back, and you get rid of someone. Can't just sit around shorthanded til June.

My thoughts exactly. We won't have a "six starters" problem. Freddy will go down or be traded when Peavy is back.

Marqhead
01-27-2011, 12:26 PM
My thoughts exactly. We won't have a "six starters" problem. Freddy will go down or be traded when Peavy is back.

Or fill in for someone else if we happen to *gasp* have another injury this year. Sign him up.

sox1970
01-27-2011, 12:30 PM
Well, it was probably going to be Harrell or Humber until Peavy got back anyway. Freddy would be fine with me. Plus Peavy is going to get hurt again anyway. I'd rather have Freddy there than a younger guy.

I also think this is more of a sign that Sale is going to close, which is the right move for this particular season. He can move into the rotation in 2012.

JermaineDye05
01-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Well, it was probably going to be Harrell or Humber until Peavy got back anyway. Freddy would be fine with me. Plus Peavy is going to get hurt again anyway. I'd rather have Freddy there than a younger guy.

I also think this is more of a sign that Sale is going to close, which is the right move for this particular season. He can move into the rotation in 2012.

I like your optimism.

TomBradley72
01-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Odds are that somewhere between Peavy and the other 4 starters- someone will get injured, etc.- I'd like to have Freddy since I don't think we have anyone serviceable as a call up from AAA.

Any year we've contended- we've needed that extra starter at some point- Brandon McCarthy, Dan Hudson, etc.

NLaloosh
01-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Why is everyone being so logical today?

veeter
01-27-2011, 02:52 PM
My thoughts exactly. We won't have a "six starters" problem. Freddy will go down or be traded when Peavy is back.And who's to say Freddy is the guy they move, if and when Peavy gets back? The guy outpitched everybody last year except for Danks. I'd keep a real close eye on Floyd.

eriqjaffe
01-27-2011, 02:59 PM
And who's to say Freddy is the guy they move, if and when Peavy gets back? The guy outpitched everybody last year except for Danks. I'd keep a real close eye on Floyd.Freddy didn't hold up well, though. He wasn't fooling many people in the second half.

DirtySox
01-27-2011, 03:00 PM
And who's to say Freddy is the guy they move, if and when Peavy gets back? The guy outpitched everybody last year except for Danks.

Freddy was the worst starter in the rotation. All relevant stats dictate this. The only thing you could be referencing is wins, which is a horrible indicator of worth.

JermaineDye05
01-27-2011, 03:13 PM
Freddy was the worst starter in the rotation. All relevant stats dictate this. The only thing you could be referencing is wins, which is a horrible indicator of worth.

http://ragecomic.appspot.com/packs/scared/images/Shocked.png

Daver
01-27-2011, 03:14 PM
Freddy was the worst starter in the rotation. All relevant stats dictate this. The only thing you could be referencing is wins, which is a horrible indicator of worth.

He's still a better option than Harrell.

DirtySox
01-27-2011, 03:16 PM
He's still a better option than Harrell.

Absolutely. I'd be fine with him in the 5th spot until/if Jake is ready.

The statement that he out-pitched MB, Peavy, Floyd, and Jackson are incorrect though.

Lip Man 1
01-27-2011, 03:21 PM
I'd love for them to get Freddy but based on Kenny's comments last week at Sox Fest, Peavy will be back long before June.

Lip

Hitmen77
01-27-2011, 03:27 PM
How is Peavy's return even an issue? He comes back, and you get rid of someone. Can't just sit around shorthanded til June.

I was wondering the same thing.

Lets say they sign Freddy and then Peavy comes back looking as good as ever in May. It's not like they couldn't trade Garcia at that point. There's always going to be a team out there that needs a starting pitcher.

khan
01-27-2011, 03:47 PM
Freddy was the worst starter in the rotation. All relevant stats dictate this. The only thing you could be referencing is wins, which is a horrible indicator of worth.

I hesitate to state this, as I generally agree with you.

But you're wrong about Freddy this past season. Freddy had a superior WHIP [1.376], K/9, and ERA to Buehrle [1.403 WHIP]. That said, I agree that ERA isn't as robust a metric as other numbers; Freddy also accomplished his superior WHIP, K/9IP, and ERA in fewer IP than Buehrle.

Freddy was marginally worse than Floyd in WHIP [1.368], although Floyd had a sparkling 1st half, only to crap his pants in the second half. Who knows which Floyd will show up at any given start? He could just miss a no-hitter one day, then give up 10 runs to a ****ty team the next day.

I won't say much about Jackson, because clowns will post stupid **** in response. I will only state that his 75 IP with the SOX were far afield from his career norms.

Danks was again excellent [WHIP: 1.216, K/9: 6.845, 213 IP], and is perhaps the best player in the roster. That HE doesn't have more money and more years on his contract is country-dumb.

Peavy's WHIP [1.234] and K/9 [7.822] are as promising as his injury woes are disappointing.


I think that depending on how you measure effectiveness, Freddy certainly wasn't the MOST effective. But neither was he the LEAST effective. Given that there really don't appear to be any cheap homegrown options, I'd welcome him back for 2011.

TheVulture
01-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Freddy was the worst starter in the rotation. All relevant stats dictate this. The only thing you could be referencing is wins, which is a horrible indicator of worth.

I don't know - if you look at the game logs I think an argument could be presented that Freddy pitched good games more often than the others, but got absolutely pounded a few times.

KMcMahon817
01-27-2011, 05:04 PM
Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

I know JR and the Sox have already spent a ton of money but how can you build a $130 M baseball team and then cheap out on the last starter?

Chris Sale can start. He would likely be much better than Garcia anyway.

Not saying I want him to start, or that I don't want Sweaty.

DirtySox
01-27-2011, 05:31 PM
I hesitate to state this, as I generally agree with you.

But you're wrong about Freddy this past season. Freddy had a superior WHIP [1.376], K/9, and ERA to Buehrle [1.403 WHIP]. That said, I agree that ERA isn't as robust a metric as other numbers; Freddy also accomplished his superior WHIP, K/9IP, and ERA in fewer IP than Buehrle.

Freddy was marginally worse than Floyd in WHIP [1.368], although Floyd had a sparkling 1st half, only to crap his pants in the second half. Who knows which Floyd will show up at any given start? He could just miss a no-hitter one day, then give up 10 runs to a ****ty team the next day.

I won't say much about Jackson, because clowns will post stupid **** in response. I will only state that his 75 IP with the SOX were far afield from his career norms.

Danks was again excellent [WHIP: 1.216, K/9: 6.845, 213 IP], and is perhaps the best player in the roster. That HE doesn't have more money and more years on his contract is country-dumb.

Peavy's WHIP [1.234] and K/9 [7.822] are as promising as his injury woes are disappointing.


I think that depending on how you measure effectiveness, Freddy certainly wasn't the MOST effective. But neither was he the LEAST effective. Given that there really don't appear to be any cheap homegrown options, I'd welcome him back for 2011.

Fangraphs has Freddy having a higher ERA than Mark. I also think you are being over reliant on WHIP and K/9, especially for a pitcher like Buehrle who generally makes his living by inducing contact. You are indeed correct though that Freddy has some peripherals that are better, but I'm also looking at metrics that are overall more encompassing. Most notably WAR, FIP, and ERA. Garcia falls last on each when considering all 6 pitchers that were in the rotation.

khan
01-27-2011, 05:59 PM
Fangraphs has Freddy having a higher ERA than Mark.
You're correct. I have their ERAs reversed.

I also think you are being over reliant on WHIP and K/9, especially for a pitcher like Buehrle who generally makes his living by inducing contact.
I tend to prefer WHIP as a somewhat simplistic rate statistic that is easily understood by even those who fear numbers. OBPa is another metric that I tend to prefer, but posting that tends to freak out the numerophobes.

At this point in his career, Freddy is no longer as skilled at striking out batters as he once was. My view is that Buehrle and he should be more similar in this metric. But despite his 82 MPH fastball, Freddy did outstrip Buehrle at K/9 IP. [More alarmingly, Buehrle's K/9 is falling off a cliff in recent seasons, which suggests that he's getting old, QUICK.]

You are indeed correct though that Freddy has some peripherals that are better, but I'm also looking at metrics that are overall more encompassing. Most notably WAR, FIP, and ERA. Garcia falls last on each when considering all 6 pitchers that were in the rotation.

The gap in WAR can be explained via the difference in IP. I can't [yet] account for the differences in FIP, though I agree that it is telling. I don't value ERA much. ERA can lie to an observer that isn't careful about what he/she is looking at, IMO.

I'd argue that the evidence suggests that Freddy wasn't as productive [in terms of IP] as others, but that he wasn't markedly more unproductive than others in the rotation.

At the right price, I'd bring garcia back, but I'd also expect his production and effectiveness to naturally erode a bit. [How pitiful is it that we can't think of a minor leaguer in the system that could give the SOX a ~1.4 WHIP or ~4.5 ERA for a few months?]

NLaloosh
01-27-2011, 06:09 PM
There is a very significant chance that Peavy does not make 25 starts this year.

There's probably a significant chance that he doesn't make 15 starts this year.

He's only thrown 200 innings in a season 3 times in his career and the last time was 2007. It would be no surprise if he ended the season on the DL again.

doublem23
01-27-2011, 06:27 PM
Chris Sale can start. He would likely be much better than Garcia anyway.

Not saying I want him to start, or that I don't want Sweaty.

I don't think it's at all a foregone conclusion that Sale is ready to start in the Majors.

Noneck
01-27-2011, 06:41 PM
I don't think it's at all a foregone conclusion that Sale is ready to start in the Majors.

Not much of a track record starting in any kind of professional baseball.

DirtySox
01-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Stuff

No disagreements. I'd imagine we are hung up in semantics on what exactly "outpitched" means. I'm also in favor of bringing him back for the 5th spot until/if Peavy is back.

Taliesinrk
01-27-2011, 07:21 PM
One thing that isn't being discussed is the fact that it may not be the Sox not wanting to spend $, rather Freddy not wanting to sign with the Sox. At this stage in his career, I'd imagine he's going to want to play... and even moreso, start. When Peavy comes back, Garcia most likely doesn't have a spot on the Sox. I know he has a history with the Sox, not to mention family ties, but he probably wants to make the most of his little remaining time.

russ99
01-28-2011, 08:45 AM
One thing that isn't being discussed is the fact that it may not be the Sox not wanting to spend $, rather Freddy not wanting to sign with the Sox. At this stage in his career, I'd imagine he's going to want to play... and even moreso, start. When Peavy comes back, Garcia most likely doesn't have a spot on the Sox. I know he has a history with the Sox, not to mention family ties, but he probably wants to make the most of his little remaining time.

That's why this is curious news that the Sox have interest.

We can't pay Freddy what other teams can and there's not really a spot for him here, at least not one for the playing time he expects.

I have to wonder if the Sox are doing a member of the "Sox family" a favor by declaring interest so other teams get more involved.

KMcMahon817
01-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I don't think it's at all a foregone conclusion that Sale is ready to start in the Majors.

Well, yeah. The dude is going to give up some runs, but I don't think sending him to AA to start like some want makes much sense.

If it is use Sale in the BP or have him start in AA or even AAA, sign Freddy up. In his latest interview, Sale said that he is preparing to start, FWIW. With the SOX track record with top prospects (Beckham, Sale) the past few years, I have a hard time believing he won't be wearing a SOX uni.

hawkjt
01-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Bring back Freddy.
Too many starters is never a problem.

Jurr
01-29-2011, 05:47 PM
You can never rely on all of your starters surviving a season. It just doesn't happen. Freddy could be the bridge to Peavy, then who knows? Buehrle or Danks might go down. Peavy might be crap upon his return. If it makes financial sense, pull that trigger immediately.

DickAllen72
01-30-2011, 11:17 AM
You can never rely on all of your starters surviving a season. It just doesn't happen. Freddy could be the bridge to Peavy, then who knows? Buehrle or Danks might go down. Peavy might be crap upon his return. If it makes financial sense, pull that trigger immediately.
So true. And even if Peavy is ready to pitch by May, there's no guarantee he'll won't be on the DL again at some point in the season.

Freddy is a proven commodity and he knows how to pitch even when he doesn't have his good stuff. The Sox could do much worse than Freddy as an insurance policy on a high priced pitching staff.

Hitmen77
01-30-2011, 06:13 PM
Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

I know JR and the Sox have already spent a ton of money but how can you build a $130 M baseball team and then cheap out on the last starter?

Maybe the Sox will be able to trade Teahen away and free up $4.5 million in payroll.

pythons007
01-31-2011, 10:52 AM
Heard on the the score this morning that Freddy is interested in the Yankees first.

DirtySox
01-31-2011, 11:03 AM
Heard on the the score this morning that Freddy is interested in the Yankees first.

Indeed. Per this:

http://wap.meridiano.com.ve/n.php?id=186839

"My preference is to be with the New York Yankees, and it's not unreasonable to have that in mind, because I've demonstrated that I can be useful," Garcia said. "A team like New York would be ideal for my age, [as would ] playing in a successful, media-heavy, demanding division. Without doubt it would be an inspiration."

KMcMahon817
01-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Indeed. Per this:

http://wap.meridiano.com.ve/n.php?id=186839

Slash the SOX won't pay him what he is looking for.

SoxNation05
01-31-2011, 04:13 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/01/garcia-not-returning-to-chicago.html

Nellie_Fox
01-31-2011, 04:19 PM
The thread title is misleading. That's not what the article says. It says he'd prefer to go to New York, not that he'd ruled out Chicago.

gobears1987
01-31-2011, 04:20 PM
With Peavy on track, Freddy wouldn't have a role here outside of the pen. If he heads to the pitcher starved Yankees, he's going to be starting every 5th day.

DirtySox
01-31-2011, 04:21 PM
It doesn't say he's not coming back. Just that he prefers the Yankees.

JermaineDye05
01-31-2011, 08:07 PM
Source: Freddy Garcia to #Yankees (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Yankees) - minor-league deal. #MLB (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23MLB) half a minute ago (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/32258498746122241) via web Retweeted by 1 person
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/533041789/Kenny_bigger.jpg (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)
Ken_Rosenthal (http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal)

Rockabilly
01-31-2011, 08:23 PM
Good luck to Garcia in NY. I wish he would have signed with the Sox.

Nellie_Fox
01-31-2011, 08:37 PM
Wow, he took a minor-league deal with the Yankees? I think he could have done better than that.

KMcMahon817
01-31-2011, 08:40 PM
Minor league deal with the Yanks. 1.5 mill guaranteed. 3.6 if he reaches all of his performace incentives.

The SOX must really be tapped out.

CWSpalehoseCWS
01-31-2011, 08:45 PM
Wow, he took a minor-league deal with the Yankees? I think he could have done better than that.

He has a better chance to win a rotation spot with them than with the Sox, at least when talking full season. The fact he is competing with Colon... 'nuff said.

WhiteSox5187
01-31-2011, 08:47 PM
Wow, he took a minor-league deal with the Yankees? I think he could have done better than that.

Minor league deal with the Yanks. 1.5 mill guaranteed. 3.6 if he reaches all of his performace incentives.

The SOX must really be tapped out.

He probably could have gotten a guarenteed major league contract else where but I don't know if it would have been much more than $1.5 and it certainly wouldn't have been as much as a possible $5 million, I suspect some of that performance incentive would also be quite easy for him to achieve which could put the deal over $2 million.

NLaloosh
01-31-2011, 09:39 PM
I'll go on record right now saying that Freddy has a better year than Peavy.

The Sox didn't get enough pitching this offseason to make them any better than last year's second place. That's kind of sad when you think that they're payroll went to an all-time high. But, still not enough pitching.

I guess the bulk of the money had to go for the .250 hitting DH.

JermaineDye05
01-31-2011, 09:45 PM
I'll go on record right now saying that Freddy has a better year than Peavy.

The Sox didn't get enough pitching this offseason to make them any better than last year's second place. That's kind of sad when you think that they're payroll went to an all-time high. But, still not enough pitching.

I guess the bulk of the money had to go for the .250 hitting DH.

I'll respectfully disagree. Though I don't think that surprises anyone here on WSI.

spawn
01-31-2011, 09:55 PM
I'll go on record right now saying that Freddy has a better year than Peavy.

The Sox didn't get enough pitching this offseason to make them any better than last year's second place. That's kind of sad when you think that they're payroll went to an all-time high. But, still not enough pitching.

I guess the bulk of the money had to go for the .250 hitting DH.
Let's not forget that sorry excuse for a first baseman they just had to re-sign. Or the catcher. I can't believe there are Sox fans that don't like the Dunn deal, but I guess you can't please everyone. :shrug:

soxlady8
01-31-2011, 09:57 PM
The guy on channel 9 said Garcia was signed by the Yankees (Minor League deal ).
I was hoping Garcia would be back for awhile !

soxlady8
01-31-2011, 09:58 PM
Okay ... I was a little late to the party :(

good deal for him though !!

kittle42
01-31-2011, 10:26 PM
I can't believe there are Sox fans that don't like the Dunn deal, but I guess you can't please everyone. :shrug:

But, but, but...he hit .250!

DumpJerry
02-01-2011, 12:11 AM
Moot point now. Discuss here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=125879).