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Lip Man 1
01-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Given the discussion in the other thread about Kenny and his "faults" got me to thinking. I don't know if I've ever seen this discussion so I wanted to explore it.

Here's the task. If you could have one current G.M. from ANY major league club, take over the Sox tomorrow who would it be any why?

Everyone is eligible (including Kenny) but the parameters are you only get the individual G.M. You don't get the staff he had with his other team, you don't get his former resources, you don't get his former minor league system.

I'll be interested to see whom is picked by the fans especially Kenny's detractors.

I'll hang up and listen to the answers...LOL.

Lip

doublem23
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Me

DumpJerry
01-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Oh my. There are so many well versed posters at WSI, I just don't know which one to choose.

SI1020
01-04-2011, 01:44 PM
Me You're pretty smart but you're young. Hire a wise old Sox fan like me (doesn't have to be me) to help you out.

On a more serious note KW is very streaky and seems to love to go for the high profile name, damn the cost, damn the consequences. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. I do believe that if the Sox don't fix things down on the farm soon, look for a long down period, and I don't know if this franchise and this fan base could handle that. You can't use prospects as bargaining chips after you run out of prospects. Who could replace KW? That's hard to answer because the Sox are never going to give a GM the leeway that Cashman and Epstein have, and Hendry once did. Despite winning it all only once I like the way the Braves operated under John Schuerholz. Is there a guy like that somewhere waiting for his big opportunity?

Moses_Scurry
01-04-2011, 01:50 PM
I'd stick with Kenny.

Walt Jocketty would be my 2nd choice. He has built successful teams at more than one stop, which suggests to me that it is more his doing and not just his staff. If you can turn around the Reds with Dusty at the helm, you have to be doing something right.

russ99
01-04-2011, 02:28 PM
#1 is Kenny, no contest.

But if I had to pick someone else, I'd hire Gerry Hunsicker out of the Rays front office.

He was the GM responsible for the contending Astros teams of the mid to late 90's and early 2000s, and has been Senior VP of Baseball Operations in the Rays front office during their building toward contention since he was let go by Houston in 2004 due to clashes with ownership.

DirtySox
01-04-2011, 02:29 PM
Theo.

The Immigrant
01-04-2011, 02:38 PM
Theo.

Damn, it only took 7 posts...

Noneck
01-04-2011, 02:46 PM
Rollie Hemond with actual money to work with, may be quite interesting.

Lip Man 1
01-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Moses:

If Kenny were to go, I like Jocketty as well.

Lip

asindc
01-04-2011, 03:01 PM
Theo.

I don't know how closely you read the original post, but under the proposed scenario, Epstein would not be able to bring the NESN money with him.

DirtySox
01-04-2011, 03:02 PM
I don't know how closely you read the original post, but under the proposed scenario, Epstein would not be able to bring the NESN money with him.

And?

Lip Man 1
01-04-2011, 03:12 PM
Dirty:

I think Asin's point is (and he can correct me if I'm wrong...) that Epstein can't simply go out and buy whomever he wants much as the Yankees do. When you can spend that kind of money you can overcome a lot of mistakes.

I thought it was very interesting reading a story by Joe Sheehan in S.I. a few weeks ago talking about baseball where he was actually criticle of Epstein and the fact that he 'overpays' for free agents and in general terms hasn't gotten what he should out of them.

Again that's not an issue for Epstein, if a player is bad, he'll just go out and spend 80 million or so for someone else.

Lip

Moses_Scurry
01-04-2011, 03:36 PM
Without following the team every minute of the day, it is hard to know who is actually a good GM and who is just a product of their environment. I used to think the old Twins GM (can't remember his name) was the best GM, but he left and the Twins have not missed him at all. I think Theo is pretty good just because in addition to being able to spend money, the Red Sox seem to constantly be bringing up good players to fill the holes. I would like to see what Theo could do with a different team (doesn't have to be a Pittsburgh, but at least a middle of the pack team like the Braves or Dodgers) before I would put him at number 1.

People use Beane's record with a low payroll team to prop him in the upper tier of GM's, but I think it would be interesting to see how he would do with a middle payroll or higher team. It's possible his talent wouldn't transfer very well.

If I can't have Kenny, I want somebody who has been successful at more than one place.

NLaloosh
01-04-2011, 04:33 PM
It's not that I think that KW is not a very good GM. He is. It's just that my personal philosophy of building a baseball franchise is the opposite of his.

So, that's when I have a problem with his moves such as Hudson for Jackson, the Peavy deal etc.

I would be all about scouting, drafting and developing and mixing in with a few free agents and not trading young players for old expensive ones.

However, his results are still there. He just arrives at them in a different way. He's comfortable making the very risky deals and re-building the team on the fly every year to give them a good chance at the playoffs every year.

Many people, myself included, wouldn't go about it that way. I would not mind a few lean years in order to then consistently produce talent like the Rays, Twins etc.

asindc
01-04-2011, 04:34 PM
And?

Please read below.

Dirty:

I think Asin's point is (and he can correct me if I'm wrong...) that Epstein can't simply go out and buy whomever he wants much as the Yankees do. When you can spend that kind of money you can overcome a lot of mistakes.

I thought it was very interesting reading a story by Joe Sheehan in S.I. a few weeks ago talking about baseball where he was actually criticle of Epstein and the fact that he 'overpays' for free agents and in general terms hasn't gotten what he should out of them.

Again that's not an issue for Epstein, if a player is bad, he'll just go out and spend 80 million or so for someone else.

Lip

Yes, Lip, that is my point. I'm certain we are not the only two who post here who see it that way.

asindc
01-04-2011, 04:35 PM
It's not that I think that KW is not a very good GM. He is. It's just that my personal philosophy of building a baseball franchise is the opposite of his.

So, that's when I have a problem with his moves such as Hudson for Jackson, the Peavy deal etc.

I would be all about scouting, drafting and developing and mixing in with a few free agents and not trading young players for old expensive ones.

However, his results are still there. He just arrives at them in a different way. He's comfortable making the very risky deals and re-building the team on the fly every year to give them a good chance at the playoffs every year.

Many people, myself included, wouldn't go about it that way. I would not mind a few lean years in order to then consistently produce talent like the Rays, Twins etc.

Your post is well taken, but I think the Sox management is just not sure how many Sox fans would go along with the idea bolded above.

asindc
01-04-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't know how closely you read the original post, but under the proposed scenario, Epstein would not be able to bring the NESN money with him.

And?

Dirty:

I think Asin's point is (and he can correct me if I'm wrong...) that Epstein can't simply go out and buy whomever he wants much as the Yankees do. When you can spend that kind of money you can overcome a lot of mistakes.

I thought it was very interesting reading a story by Joe Sheehan in S.I. a few weeks ago talking about baseball where he was actually criticle of Epstein and the fact that he 'overpays' for free agents and in general terms hasn't gotten what he should out of them.

Again that's not an issue for Epstein, if a player is bad, he'll just go out and spend 80 million or so for someone else.

Lip

Here is a link to a post I made on this subject awhile back:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2664727&postcount=70

I find it interesting that no one has answered the challenge I made in the post.

khan
01-04-2011, 05:51 PM
On the other hand, is it possible that Theo having had success in bringing up young, cheap homegrown talent had [in part] enabled him to spend in FA?



In any case, I know that this thread is supposed to be an homage to the prophet KW, so I'll let it resume normal service.

asindc
01-04-2011, 06:01 PM
On the other hand, is it possible that Theo having had success in bringing up young, cheap homegrown talent had [in part] enabled him to spend in FA?



In any case, I know that this thread is supposed to be an homage to the prophet KW, so I'll let it resume normal service.

Not likely, since the vast majority of the players who have played prominent roles in Boston's success during Epstein's stint have NOT come from their farm system. That is why they pay $60 million to have a conversation with a #5 pitcher or pay a 36-year-old CF to start ahead of all of their prospects, to give just two examples. But go ahead and genuflect at the mention of Epstein, no one is stopping you.:smile:

Parrothead
01-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Whoever the guy is for the Florida Marlins. That guy and his staff excel at finding young talent. And with the Sox money, he would be able to keep most of it.

khan
01-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Not likely, since the vast majority of the players who have played prominent roles in Boston's success during Epstein's stint have come from their farm system.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Having young, cheap players in the roster frees up money to spend elsewhere.

That is why they pay $60 million to have a conversation with a #5 pitcher or pay a 36-year-old CF to start ahead of all of their prospects, to give just two examples.
They can get away with this because they're not wasting draft picks on Lance Broadway, Joe Borchard, Josh Fields, and other steaming piles of ****. They can sign players in FA because they didn't trade away their best/ONLY near MLB-ready pitching prospect for an $8.35M SP, who is a Boras client with a bad career up to this point.

In other words, Theo CAN waste $60M on a conversation [in part] because he's got pieces to use on the roster or to trade away.


But go ahead and genuflect at the mention of Epstein, no one is stopping you.:smile:
I'll get right on that, after you do the same for the prophet KW.

delben91
01-04-2011, 06:29 PM
Thank you for agreeing with me. Having young, cheap players in the roster frees up money to spend elsewhere.


They can get away with this because they're not wasting draft picks on Lance Broadway, Joe Borchard, Josh Fields, and other steaming piles of ****. They can sign players in FA because they didn't trade away their best/ONLY near MLB-ready pitching prospect for an $8.35M SP, who is a Boras client with a bad career up to this point.

In other words, Theo CAN waste $60M on a conversation [in part] because he's got pieces to use on the roster or to trade away.



I'll get right on that, after you do the same for the prophet KW.


Not for nothing, but Tom Boswell of the Washington Post as reported several times that there was a deal in place to flip Jackson for Dunn and then the Nationals backed out after the Sox had already dealt for Jackson. Would indicate the basic plan was Hudson for Dunn, but ended up being Hudson for Jackson.

khan
01-04-2011, 06:35 PM
Not for nothing, but Tom Boswell of the Washington Post as reported several times that there was a deal in place to flip Jackson for Dunn and then the Nationals backed out after the Sox had already dealt for Jackson. Would indicate the basic plan was Hudson for Dunn, but ended up being Hudson for Jackson.

Yeah, I'd heard that as well. But it didn't make sense to me at the time, and it makes less sense to me now.

It made little-to-no sense, given how bad Jackson was in 2010 until his miraculous August against 3 BAD teams, how expensive he will soon become, the remaining duration of Jackson's contract, the makeup of Washington, where the nats are in terms of competing, and the royal jackass that is Jackson's agent.


There may or may not have been a deal in place. If there was, then I can only assume that Washington's GM came to his senses before finalizing the deal. If this is the case, then it's on KW for not making the Jackson-for-Hudson steal contingent on the subsequent Jackson-for-Dunn steal.

I there wasn't a deal in place for Dunn, then KW needs to have someone that understands the concept of "value" reviewing his deals before he makes them in the future.

DirtySox
01-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Not for nothing, but Tom Boswell of the Washington Post as reported several times that there was a deal in place to flip Jackson for Dunn and then the Nationals backed out after the Sox had already dealt for Jackson. Would indicate the basic plan was Hudson for Dunn, but ended up being Hudson for Jackson.

I had read that as well. Supposedly Rizzo wanted to go through with the trade but some of the ownership/stakeholders wouldn't let him pull the trigger. They really wanted to retain Dunn and extend him.

delben91
01-04-2011, 06:39 PM
Yeah, I'd heard that as well. But it didn't make sense to me at the time, and it makes less sense to me now.

It made little-to-no sense, given how bad Jackson was in 2010 until his miraculous August against 3 BAD teams, how expensive he will soon become, the remaining duration of Jackson's contract, the makeup of Washington, where the nats are in terms of competing, and the royal jackass that is Jackson's agent.


There may or may not have been a deal in place. If there was, then I can only assume that Washington's GM came to his senses before finalizing the deal. If this is the case, then it's on KW for not making the Jackson-for-Hudson steal contingent on the subsequent Jackson-for-Dunn steal.

I there wasn't a deal in place for Dunn, then KW needs to have someone that understands the concept of "value" reviewing his deals before he makes them in the future.

For what it's worth, here's the Boswell article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/15/AR2010121506929.html?sid=ST2010121507078). See the second page, 3rd paragraph from the bottom.

cards press box
01-04-2011, 07:04 PM
So, the Sox ended up acquiring Dunn anyway and didn't have to part with Jackson to do so. That isn't a bad thing as it gives the Sox the ability to make another trade to address a need.

The team that apparently lost out on the deal was not the Sox but the Nats.

Lip Man 1
01-04-2011, 07:07 PM
Khan:

I'm not trying to pay homage to anybody. I was simply curious since some seem to disagree with Kenny so strongly who they would suggest as the new G.M. and more importantly why.

Not trying to prove a point, not trying to start an argument, not angrily trying to bash other posters, just curious that's all.

Again this isn't a competition, there's no money or jobs at stake, we're just talking baseball, there's no "winners" or "losers" here.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
01-04-2011, 07:18 PM
I'd like to see either Walt Jocketty or David Dombrowski here if Kenny were to leave.

khan
01-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Lip, you're a smart guy, and I appreciate much of your writing.

However, I'm of the mind that everyone who is human is subject to making mistakes. And yes, that includes the prophet KW and the golden god Ozzie Guillen.

I'm also of the view that we can be fans of a team, player, coach, manager, owner, or GM while pointing out that they've come up short at times. We can still cheer our team while observing where they've made mistakes.

I liken this to those of us who have children can still love them, even when they've screwed up in school, gotten in trouble, or underperformed their ability in extracurricular activities.


On the other hand, stupid parents who believe [and get their kids to believe] that their kids' **** doesn't stink and that they're infallible end up raising stupid, ignorant kids who are a waste to society. In the same way, fans who believe that ONLY constant praise of the team, owner, GM, manager, coach, or player is fandom are missing the point, IMO.

Lip Man 1
01-04-2011, 07:29 PM
Dombrowski would be an interesting choice. He's from Chicago, built the great Montreal farm system, bought smartly and won a World Series with Florida, got the Tigers to a World Series.

Started his career with the Sox until he was fired by "Hawk" Harrelson.

Lip

Foulke You
01-04-2011, 07:36 PM
Thank you for agreeing with me. Having young, cheap players in the roster frees up money to spend elsewhere.


They can get away with this because they're not wasting draft picks on Lance Broadway, Joe Borchard, Josh Fields, and other steaming piles of ****. They can sign players in FA because they didn't trade away their best/ONLY near MLB-ready pitching prospect for an $8.35M SP, who is a Boras client with a bad career up to this point.

In other words, Theo CAN waste $60M on a conversation [in part] because he's got pieces to use on the roster or to trade away.


Michael Bowden, Jason Place, Craig Hansen, Caleb Clay, Matt Murton, Phil Dumatrait, Nick Hagadone, Jed Lowrie, and Kris Johnson are a sampling of failed first round picks from the Red Sox this decade. Many of them aren't even in the big leagues so it is unfair to single out Kenny Williams for wasting first round draft picks on the likes of Fields or Borchard. All teams have their list of first round busts including the mighty Red Sox. Sure, there is a Daniel Bard and a Jacoby Elsbury thrown in there for Boston but the White Sox also have a Gordon Beckham and a Chris Sale in the draft too so let's not completely discredit our organization.

The Red Sox payroll budget is definitely a huge advantage. Theo spent $55 million more on his 2010 Red Sox than Kenny did on his 2010 club (and only got 1 more victory) You are blinded by your hatred of Kenny Williams if you don't see the money they have as a tremendous advantage. Theo didn't get to that payroll limit because he drafted better, he got to that limit because his ownership wants them to compete with the $200 million+ Yankees in the AL East and gave him $160 million to play with. Kenny got a bit of a boost to his payroll for 2011 and I have a feeling it is going to show on the field next season but even our modest payroll increase doesn't put us close to the Red Sox payroll spending. If Kenny had another $40 million to spend, he could sign Adrian Beltre, Freddy Garcia, and Rafael Soriano tomorrow and look like a genius.

Hunker down
01-04-2011, 08:05 PM
How about John Schuerholz? Two world champs, 1985 Royals & 1995 Braves. Both teams won their share of division titles, so they were always in the mix.

But since his teams only won the WS in years ending in a 5, can we wait until 2015 for another one?

guillen4life13
01-04-2011, 08:15 PM
Terry Ryan, Pat Gillick (if he can be included in the discussion), and Andrew Friedman.

asindc
01-04-2011, 08:54 PM
Thank you for agreeing with me. Having young, cheap players in the roster frees up money to spend elsewhere.

I did not agree with you. In fact, given that Boston's top 13 highest-paid players on last season's roster included only two from their farm system, I would feel quite silly agreeing with your assessment. See my edited post below:

Not likely, since the vast majority of the players who have played prominent roles in Boston's success during Epstein's stint have NOT come from their farm system. That is why they pay $60 million to have a conversation with a #5 pitcher or pay a 36-year-old CF to start ahead of all of their prospects, to give just two examples. But go ahead and genuflect at the mention of Epstein, no one is stopping you.:smile:

asindc
01-04-2011, 08:59 PM
Yeah, I'd heard that as well. But it didn't make sense to me at the time, and it makes less sense to me now.

It made little-to-no sense, given how bad Jackson was in 2010 until his miraculous August against 3 BAD teams, how expensive he will soon become, the remaining duration of Jackson's contract, the makeup of Washington, where the nats are in terms of competing, and the royal jackass that is Jackson's agent.


There may or may not have been a deal in place. If there was, then I can only assume that Washington's GM came to his senses before finalizing the deal. If this is the case, then it's on KW for not making the Jackson-for-Hudson steal contingent on the subsequent Jackson-for-Dunn steal.

I there wasn't a deal in place for Dunn, then KW needs to have someone that understands the concept of "value" reviewing his deals before he makes them in the future.

You assume incorrectly. It has been reported in the Washington media that Rizzo wanted the deal to happen but got nixed by the organization's review board. In fact, Nats fans are pissed that the board has such say over baseball matters. Perhaps KW needs to understand the concept of value as exhibited by Epstein's signings of J.D. Drew, Mike Cameron, Julio Lugo, and Dice-K.

asindc
01-04-2011, 09:16 PM
Michael Bowden, Jason Place, Craig Hansen, Caleb Clay, Matt Murton, Phil Dumatrait, Nick Hagadone, Jed Lowrie, and Kris Johnson are a sampling of failed first round picks from the Red Sox this decade. Many of them aren't even in the big leagues so it is unfair to single out Kenny Williams for wasting first round draft picks on the likes of Fields or Borchard. All teams have their list of first round busts including the mighty Red Sox. Sure, there is a Daniel Bard and a Jacoby Elsbury thrown in there for Boston but the White Sox also have a Gordon Beckham and a Chris Sale in the draft too so let's not completely discredit our organization.

The Red Sox payroll budget is definitely a huge advantage. Theo spent $55 million more on his 2010 Red Sox than Kenny did on his 2010 club (and only got 1 more victory) You are blinded by your hatred of Kenny Williams if you don't see the money they have as a tremendous advantage. Theo didn't get to that payroll limit because he drafted better, he got to that limit because his ownership wants them to compete with the $200 million+ Yankees in the AL East and gave him $160 million to play with. Kenny got a bit of a boost to his payroll for 2011 and I have a feeling it is going to show on the field next season but even our modest payroll increase doesn't put us close to the Red Sox payroll spending. If Kenny had another $40 million to spend, he could sign Adrian Beltre, Freddy Garcia, and Rafael Soriano tomorrow and look like a genius.

No, no, no, you just don't understand. Epstein's genius in building a strong farm system in order to trade valuable prospects for proven veteran players is exhibited by the trades for J.D. Drew, Mike Cameron, Marco Scutaro, Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Dice-K, Hideki Okajima, Tim Wakefield, and... oh wait... none of these guys were traded for. Hmmm...

WhiteSox5187
01-04-2011, 09:31 PM
Dombrowski would be an interesting choice. He's from Chicago, built the great Montreal farm system, bought smartly and won a World Series with Florida, got the Tigers to a World Series.

Started his career with the Sox until he was fired by "Hawk" Harrelson.

Lip

Also most of the guys on the 2003 Marlins World Series winning team were his guys. He was for a time I think considered to be the heir to Roland Hemond with the White Sox.

sullythered
01-04-2011, 11:32 PM
I'll only take Theo if the 160 million annual payroll comes here with him.

balke
01-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Rick Hahn. Kenny to V.P.


Keep the ball rolling and get a refresh at G.M. Sox have gotten a lot of great deals with Kenny as G.M. Might make people wary to deal with him soon. So keep him at V.P. and let Hahn start fresh.

Lorenzo Barcelo
01-05-2011, 11:04 AM
Rick Hahn. Kenny to V.P.


Keep the ball rolling and get a refresh at G.M. Sox have gotten a lot of great deals with Kenny as G.M. Might make people wary to deal with him soon. So keep him at V.P. and let Hahn start fresh.

If this were to happen, I think of the Gar-Pax situation. Everyone thinks Paxson is still pulling the strings, and in this case, KW would still be the greater influence.

doublem23
01-05-2011, 11:07 AM
If this were to happen, I think of the Gar-Pax situation. Everyone thinks Paxson is still pulling the strings, and in this case, KW would still be the greater influence.

Yeah and I still really do not understand how promoting the #2 guy in the front office is "making a clean start." I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking Hahn, if that's your thing, but he's really the least attractive candidate for GM if you think the Sox need to press the reset button.

khan
01-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Many of them aren't even in the big leagues so it is unfair to single out Kenny Williams for wasting first round draft picks on the likes of Fields or Borchard. All teams have their list of first round busts including the mighty Red Sox. Sure, there is a Daniel Bard and a Jacoby Elsbury thrown in there for Boston but the White Sox also have a Gordon Beckham and a Chris Sale in the draft too so let's not completely discredit our organization.
The difference is that there are more cheap homegrown players in the Boston roster than in the SOX roster. Moreover, boston under Theo has simply been better at scouting, drafting, and development of young, cheap players than the SOX under KW.

Do you disagree?

The Red Sox payroll budget is definitely a huge advantage. Theo spent $55 million more on his 2010 Red Sox than Kenny did on his 2010 club (and only got 1 more victory) You are blinded by your hatred of Kenny Williams if you don't see the money they have as a tremendous advantage.
1. No one disagrees that a larger payroll is an advantage. I didn't state that Theo's superiority in guiding a decent scouting/drafting/development system was THE ONLY advantage that Theo enjoys, but ONE advantage.

2. Let's stop the childish bull**** that if anyone points out where KW fell short that they "hate KW." It's stupid, tired, and weak, at best.

3. As I've stated elsewhere, one can be disappointed in their kid when they fell short, but still love their kid. In the same way, one can state where their favorite team's owner, GM, manager, or player fell short, but still be a fan.

4. It is OK to be a fan of your team, owner, GM, manager, or player but still state that another team, owner, GM, manager, or player is better than one on YOUR team. Don't believe me? Here's an example:

I'm a fan of the SOX. I'm a fan of PK. But it is entirely OK to state that Albert Pujols [assuming he's not on 'roids] is a BETTER PLAYER than PK, and that you'd rather have Pujols [assuming he's not on 'roids] on the SOX than PK. Why? Because it's TRUE.

And the same thing is OK to state about the stadium, the manager, the owner, a player, or yes, even the GM.


If Kenny had another $40 million to spend, he could sign Adrian Beltre, Freddy Garcia, and Rafael Soriano tomorrow and look like a genius.
OTOH, if KW didn't waste salary on subpar players [like Teahen and Jackson] he'd have more money to spend on good ones. At the same time, if KW had the same amount of cheap, homegrown players in the roster, he wouldn't HAVE TO spend as much on ****ty players in FA if he didn't want to. Or, he could be more aggressive in FA to solve roster problems, if he so chose.

Being smart in scouting/drafting/development is one tool inasmuch as FA money is another.


I did not agree with you. In fact, given that Boston's top 13 highest-paid players on last season's roster included only two from their farm system, I would feel quite silly agreeing with your assessment. See my edited post below:
Here's what you posted:

"...Not likely, since the vast majority of the players who have played prominent roles in Boston's success during Epstein's stint have come from their farm system..."

Actually, that reads EXACTLY as what I stated earlier:

"On the other hand, is it possible that Theo having had success in bringing up young, cheap homegrown talent had [in part] enabled him to spend in FA?"


In any case, For the record:

1. How many red sawx players in the MLB roster are home grown?

2. How many SOX players in the MLB roster are home grown?

3. How many All Stars in both teams are home grown?

4. How many home grown players in each roster are still under team control? [And thus, cheap.]

When you've looked into these things, let us know what you find.

You assume incorrectly. It has been reported in the Washington media that Rizzo wanted the deal to happen but got nixed by the organization's review board.
See, this still doesn't speak well of KW:

1. If he REALLY had no intent on keeping Jackson [as you and this story suggest], he should have made the Hudson giveaway to Az contingent on the subsequent Dunn deal.

2. That he didn't bother to do so speaks poorly of his ability to construct a deal that protects the interests of his employers.

khan
01-05-2011, 01:51 PM
Yeah and I still really do not understand how promoting the #2 guy in the front office is "making a clean start." I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking Hahn, if that's your thing, but he's really the least attractive candidate for GM if you think the Sox need to press the reset button.

If there is a difference in philosphy, I think it would be reasonable to see something of a change. For example, Hahn is highly educated, while KW is not. This could be ONE way that there is some differentiation between the two. KW was a scout, while Hahn is a "business" type. KW was a player, while Hahn was not.


However, Gar-Pax is a bit different. Gar doesn't have a philosphy, other than to "survive" and to "hang on" to a job, as far as I can see. Gar is an object, a figurehead without any real power or opinion. I'd be surprised if he has any input into anything at all.

Thome25
01-05-2011, 02:54 PM
Ruben Amaro Jr.

Has anyone said his name yet?....if not, I'm surprised.

asindc
01-05-2011, 03:13 PM
... OTOH, if KW didn't waste salary on subpar players [like Teahen and Jackson] he'd have more money to spend on good ones. At the same time, if KW had the same amount of cheap, homegrown players in the roster, he wouldn't HAVE TO spend as much on ****ty players in FA if he didn't want to. Or, he could be more aggressive in FA to solve roster problems, if he so chose.

Being smart in scouting/drafting/development is one tool inasmuch as FA money is another.



Here's what you posted:

"...Not likely, since the vast majority of the players who have played prominent roles in Boston's success during Epstein's stint have come from their farm system..."

Actually, that reads EXACTLY as what I stated earlier:

"On the other hand, is it possible that Theo having had success in bringing up young, cheap homegrown talent had [in part] enabled him to spend in FA?"


In any case, For the record:

1. How many red sawx players in the MLB roster are home grown?

2. How many SOX players in the MLB roster are home grown?

3. How many All Stars in both teams are home grown?

4. How many home grown players in each roster are still under team control? [And thus, cheap.]

When you've looked into these things, let us know what you find...

Perhaps you would be taking a different view of KW's signings if he had, instead of signing Teahen (which I disgreed with then and now) and Jackson, he had signed Julio Lugo, Mike Cameron, J.D. Drew, and/or John Lackey.

As far as what I originally typed, I know that and have edited the post to accurately reflect what I mean, which I clearly noted in a subsequent post. You really should consider the impact contending this point has on the bandwidth of this site.

Concerning your questions, please feel free to do the research yourself. I have already provided quite a bit of researched information in this and similar threads on this topic, rather than just assume as you did earlier in this thread. Your turn.

asindc
01-05-2011, 03:18 PM
If there is a difference in philosphy, I think it would be reasonable to see something of a change. For example, Hahn is highly educated, while KW is not. This could be ONE way that there is some differentiation between the two. KW was a scout, while Hahn is a "business" type. KW was a player, while Hahn was not.


However, Gar-Pax is a bit different. Gar doesn't have a philosphy, other than to "survive" and to "hang on" to a job, as far as I can see. Gar is an object, a figurehead without any real power or opinion. I'd be surprised if he has any input into anything at all.

Hahn is definitely highly educated, no doubt, but Stanford University officials might wonder why you do not consider KW highly educated. Is it because he left before graduating?

JermaineDye05
01-05-2011, 03:24 PM
KLAa-kxM8lE

khan
01-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Perhaps you would be taking a different view of KW's signings if he had, instead of signing Teahen (which I disgreed with then and now) and Jackson, he had signed Julio Lugo, Mike Cameron, J.D. Drew, and/or John Lackey.

Theo can take these sorts of chances because he has many players that came cheaply from within their organization. KW generally cannot, because he has not been as successful in scouting/drafting/developing young, cheap players to contribute to the team. [Of course, if memory serves, Cameron, Drew, and Lackey were all All Star selections either during their sawx tenure, or before they were signed to boston.]


Concerning your questions, please feel free to do the research yourself. I have already provided quite a bit of researched information in this and similar threads on this topic, rather than just assume as you did earlier in this thread. Your turn.
Fair enough. I think you already know the answer to this query, but I'll help you across the finish line.

It is evident that many more players in the sawx 40 man roster came from within Lester, Papelbon, Anderson, Iglesias, Lowrie, Navarro, Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Kalish, Nava, Reddick; Also Tazawa and Varitek]

than for the SOX. [Buehrle, Harrell, Sale, Beckham, Morel, Viciedo, Gartrell.]

Note the bolded players represent All Star selections. Note that there are MORE home grown All Stars in the sawx roster than in the SOX roster. Also note that more of the homegrown sawx are known MLB contributors or better than the same group on the SOX.


Their superior ammo in the minors also enabled them to land Adrian Gonzalez, and others in trade. I'll admit that KW has a tradition of systematically denuding the farm system of anything of note, but the sawx have scouted, drafted, and developed more and better prospects than the SOX.

Also, while some of the sawx home grown players arrived before Theo was hired as GM, if you take Buehrle out of the equation, there would be ZERO home grown All Stars on KW's resume. [And for that matter, ZERO home grown MVPs on KW's record, compared to 1 on Theo's record, who was drafted in the 2nd round.]

Hahn is definitely highly educated, no doubt, but Stanford University officials might wonder why you do not consider KW highly educated. Is it because he left before graduating?
Yes.

I don't doubt that KW is an intelligent man. But he is not highly educated, as measured by academic attainment.