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View Full Version : Poll: Martinez and Vlad vs. A.J. and Dunn


NLaloosh
12-21-2010, 08:54 AM
It appears that Victor Martinez and Vladimir Guerrero will sign contracts, in total, that will pay them almost exactly what the White Sox are paying Adam Dunn and A.J.

That made me wonder how it would be for the Sox to sign the other two instead? I'm not saying that this could have actually happened. I don't know.

Victor Martinez is exactly 2 years younger than A.J. I know his defense is not good but as Don Cooper has said "A.J. is an offensive catcher".

Last year, A.J. threw oout 25% of runners while Martinez threw out 21% catching 110 games for the Red Sox. Their career numbers are similar. And, if the Sox had signed V.M. they could always play Castro a little more there which A.J. doesn't like.

Offensively, Martinez is truly a great hitter. The switch hitter batted .300 again last year and is a real run producer. Also, he has struck out only 482 times in his entire career! That's a touch more than 2 seasons for Dunn.

As far as Vlad goes he is done defensively just like Dunn. However, he is still a tremendous hitter batting .300 again and driving in 115 runs. Both of these guys are great clutch hitters and have always been big run producers - probably because they are so good at making contact while still having a lot of power.

Dunn is not a run prodiucer. Hitting 40 homers and barely driving in 100 is weak. In 2009 Martinez drove in 109 and Guerrero's 115 last year exceed Dunn's best year ever. Last year Dunn's OBP dropped to .365 and his strikeouts rose to 199. Plus, both of these guys have always gotten it done in the A.L. where Dunn has yet to play or play as a DH.

So, would you rather the Sox paid these two guys to have 2 great hitters on the team or Dunn and A.J. and have none?

NLaloosh
12-21-2010, 08:55 AM
Sorry, Mods, forgot to post the poll.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 09:22 AM
Vlad and Victor are not great hitters, they only rack up the stats (BA, RBI) want to pawn off as important.

And since when is a guy who hits 40 HR not a great hitter? It's not 1998 any more, not everyone is jacked up on Flintstones Vitamins.

spawn
12-21-2010, 09:42 AM
Hitting 40 homers and "barely" driving in 100 runs is weak? Really? Wow. I wish the Sox would've had a second player with those weak stats last season.

aryzner
12-21-2010, 09:48 AM
Not to derail the thread too much, but speaking of Dunn driving in runs. He had 103 RBIs last year on a Nationals team that scored 655 runs all season. By comparison, the White Sox scored 752, almost 100 more.

How many RBIs does Dunn get on this 2011 White Sox team? (It's just fun to speculate on the subject.)

PaleHoser
12-21-2010, 10:27 AM
I'd rather have Victor Martinez and AJ.

Both Martinez and Dunn should leave their gloves at home. But Martinez offers the following advantages compared to Dunn:

- Switch hitter, which helps negate that late inning LOOGY.
- Depth at catcher and 1B.
- Lifetime .300 hitter.
- 482 K's in 9 year career.
- Post-season experience.
- $6M less for the same four year deal.

162 game average for Martinez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martivi01.shtml)

.300 Avg 21 HR 103 RBI .369 OBP .469 SLG 66 BB 78 K

162 game average for Dunn (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dunnad01.shtml)

.250 Avg 40 HR 98 RBI .381 OBP .521 SLG 111 BB 183 K

SoxNation05
12-21-2010, 10:46 AM
I'd rather have Victor Martinez and AJ.

Both Martinez and Dunn should leave their gloves at home. But Martinez offers the following advantages compared to Dunn:

- Switch hitter, which helps negate that late inning LOOGY.
- Depth at catcher and 1B.
- Lifetime .300 hitter.
- 482 K's in 9 year career.
- Post-season experience.
- $6M less for the same four year deal.

162 game average for Martinez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martivi01.shtml)

.300 Avg 21 HR 103 RBI .369 OBP .469 SLG 66 BB 78 K

162 game average for Dunn (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dunnad01.shtml)

.250 Avg 40 HR 98 RBI .381 OBP .521 SLG 111 BB 183 K

You fail to mention Dunn's 158 game average per season compared to Martinez's.

kittle42
12-21-2010, 10:59 AM
You fail to mention Dunn's 158 game average per season compared to Martinez's.

Exactly. 162-game stats aren't as significant when you factor in that Martinez won't play more than 125 or so.

pythons007
12-21-2010, 11:08 AM
RBIs are not the hitters fault. Dunn had 38 homers last year and 36 doubles! Played in Washington which isn't a hitter friendly park, he could have easily hit mid 40 homers last year. Dunn is consistant, and has played on some really bad teams in his career. I'd like to see what he can do with this lineup.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 11:39 AM
RBIs are not the hitters fault. Dunn had 38 homers last year and 36 doubles! Played in Washington which isn't a hitter friendly park, he could have easily hit mid 40 homers last year. Dunn is consistant, and has played on some really bad teams in his career. I'd like to see what he can do with this lineup.

Bingo. Look at the guys who were protecting Dunn in the lineup last year. Why on Earth would you ever pitch to the guy with a runner on base? It'd be ludicrous.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2010, 12:53 PM
Laloosh:

It's hard to make a statement like this since Martinez may not have wanted to play with the Sox. (There is speculation both ways on if the Sox made him an offer, if he did and turned it down...what can you do?)

Lip

TheVulture
12-21-2010, 01:08 PM
I predict in the near future, batters will be announced as followed:

"Now walking for the Chicago White Sox, Jordan Danks."

Even Hawk will get in on the act: "Greatest walker I've ever seen? Carl Yastzremski. When he came to the plate with the game on the line, you almost knew he was going to draw four balls."

Baseball America: "Ichiro, not much of a walker, but he did manage over 200 hits last year. That kind of hitting comes close to taking the sting out of his poor walking. Factor in his defense, he's not as bad as the numbers look."

kittle42
12-21-2010, 01:47 PM
I predict in the near future, batters will be announced as followed:

"Now walking for the Chicago White Sox, Jordan Danks."

Even Hawk will get in on the act: "Greatest walker I've ever seen? Carl Yastzremski. When he came to the plate with the game on the line, you almost knew he was going to draw four balls."

Baseball America: "Ichiro, not much of a walker, but he did manage over 200 hits last year. That kind of hitting comes close to taking the sting out of his poor walking. Factor in his defense, he's not as bad as the numbers look."

They should just remove the walk from baseball entirely and force these guys to hit!

WhiteSox5187
12-21-2010, 02:19 PM
I think Vlad is going to come back to earth this year (though I hope not because for some reason I like him) and AJ is a better over all catcher than Martinez (simply because Martinez really sucks at playing catcher), so I'll go with AJ and Dunn.

sullythered
12-21-2010, 04:01 PM
It appears that Victor Martinez and Vladimir Guerrero will sign contracts, in total, that will pay them almost exactly what the White Sox are paying Adam Dunn and A.J.

That made me wonder how it would be for the Sox to sign the other two instead? I'm not saying that this could have actually happened. I don't know.

Victor Martinez is exactly 2 years younger than A.J. I know his defense is not good but as Don Cooper has said "A.J. is an offensive catcher".

Last year, A.J. threw oout 25% of runners while Martinez threw out 21% catching 110 games for the Red Sox. Their career numbers are similar. And, if the Sox had signed V.M. they could always play Castro a little more there which A.J. doesn't like.

Offensively, Martinez is truly a great hitter. The switch hitter batted .300 again last year and is a real run producer. Also, he has struck out only 482 times in his entire career! That's a touch more than 2 seasons for Dunn.

As far as Vlad goes he is done defensively just like Dunn. However, he is still a tremendous hitter batting .300 again and driving in 115 runs. Both of these guys are great clutch hitters and have always been big run producers - probably because they are so good at making contact while still having a lot of power.

Dunn is not a run prodiucer. Hitting 40 homers and barely driving in 100 is weak. In 2009 Martinez drove in 109 and Guerrero's 115 last year exceed Dunn's best year ever. Last year Dunn's OBP dropped to .365 and his strikeouts rose to 199. Plus, both of these guys have always gotten it done in the A.L. where Dunn has yet to play or play as a DH.

So, would you rather the Sox paid these two guys to have 2 great hitters on the team or Dunn and A.J. and have none?

:?:

Well, per 162 games, he averages more RBI and runs scored than our other best run producer, Paul Konerko.

SOXSINCE'70
12-21-2010, 08:10 PM
I'll take Dunn and A.J.:cool:

I grew to have much more respect for them when it was revealed that they both deferred part of their salaries so the Sox could resign Konerko.
To paraphrase KW at the time, "they put their money where their mouth is".:gulp:I also think Dunn will be the LH bat this offense has been looking for since Thome left.So,yeah,i'll take Dunn and A.J.

pythons007
12-22-2010, 01:08 PM
They should just remove the walk from baseball entirely and force these guys to hit!

The ramifications of doing something like this would be catastrophic.
1. Pitchers wouldn't be forced to throw strikes at any point.
2. You'd see all pitchers just trying to hit the black on the corners. You'd see a lot less pitched "grooved".
3. At bats would take forever for those hitters that have any kind of concept of a strikezone.
4. Games would be 7 hours long.
5. Starting pitchers would be done after 5 innings.
6. You would competely change the game.
7. Scores would be drastically reduced as well as all the glamerous offensive stats.

trilobite_hives
12-22-2010, 02:17 PM
If you think Adam Dunn is not a good hitter, you don't understand baseball.

kittle42
12-22-2010, 02:21 PM
The ramifications of doing something like this would be catastrophic.
1. Pitchers wouldn't be forced to throw strikes at any point.
2. You'd see all pitchers just trying to hit the black on the corners. You'd see a lot less pitched "grooved".
3. At bats would take forever for those hitters that have any kind of concept of a strikezone.
4. Games would be 7 hours long.
5. Starting pitchers would be done after 5 innings.
6. You would competely change the game.
7. Scores would be drastically reduced as well as all the glamerous offensive stats.

This is all irrelevant, as it would still accomplish the single-most-needed thing in baseball - the end of the overglorification of the walk!

pythons007
12-22-2010, 02:28 PM
This is all irrelevant, as it would still accomplish the single-most-needed thing in baseball - the end of the overglorification of the walk!

So you'd just give full control over the game to the pitcher? You can guarentee that a hitter would never hit .300 again. Homeruns would be extinct like the dinosaurs. You get rid of the walk and small ball becomes the only way to play offensive baseball. You give no advantage to the hitter it goes completely to the pitcher. You'll end up seeing scores of 1-0, 2-1 as the norm, basically making baseball, soccer!

skobabe8
12-22-2010, 02:44 PM
So you'd just give full control over the game to the pitcher? You can guarentee that a hitter would never hit .300 again. Homeruns would be extinct like the dinosaurs. You get rid of the walk and small ball becomes the only way to play offensive baseball. You give no advantage to the hitter it goes completely to the pitcher. You'll end up seeing scores of 1-0, 2-1 as the norm, basically making baseball, soccer!

I'm pretty sure kittle forgot to use teal. :cool:

spawn
12-22-2010, 02:50 PM
I'm pretty sure kittle forgot to use teal. :cool:

I don't think he forgot to. I think he probably didn't think it was needed. I'm amazed anyone took his posts seriously.

doublem23
12-22-2010, 03:23 PM
This is all irrelevant, as it would still accomplish the single-most-needed thing in baseball - the end of the overglorification of the walk!

Can we get rid of strikeouts, too? Then all the old-timers wouldn't have to worry about things like K rate or phrases like "missing bats" and we could just focus on hitting the ball.

kittle42
12-22-2010, 03:36 PM
Can we get rid of strikeouts, too? Then all the old-timers wouldn't have to worry about things like K rate or phrases like "missing bats" and we could just focus on hitting the ball.

Agreed.

[Waiting for pythons007 to respond to this post as if it is serious...]

pythons007
12-22-2010, 03:46 PM
Sorry Kittle, but there are quite a few people on here that are serious even if the statement is completely ludicrious. I'm sorry, i can't tell by the way you type your words that your are being sarcastic. That's why we use the color teal on here.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I'm so glad you handled it so discreately.

kittle42
12-22-2010, 03:50 PM
Sorry Kittle, but there are quite a few people on here that are serious even if the statement is completely ludicrious. I'm sorry, i can't tell by the way you type your words that your are being sarcastic. That's why we use the color teal on here.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I'm so glad you handled it so discreately.

I am nothing if not "discreat."

skobabe8
12-22-2010, 03:52 PM
Sorry Kittle, but there are quite a few people on here that are serious even if the statement is completely ludicrious. I'm sorry, i can't tell by the way you type your words that your are being sarcastic. That's why we use the color teal on here.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I'm so glad you handled it so discreately.

:duel:

pythons007
12-22-2010, 04:01 PM
I am nothing if not "discreat."

Wow, I didn't know this forum was a place to get words spell checked. Now that I know, I'll come back here with others as well.

kittle42
12-22-2010, 04:13 PM
Wow, I didn't know this forum was a place to get words spell checked. Now that I know, I'll come back here with others as well.

Wow, I guess you really don't know me at all! :D:

pythons007
12-22-2010, 04:19 PM
Wow, I guess you really don't know me at all! :D:

Well if I ever go back to school or write a book, I'll make sure to send you a copy to proof read.

spawn
12-22-2010, 04:31 PM
You guys done now? Can we get back to the topic at hand?

kittle42
12-22-2010, 04:37 PM
You guys done now? Can we get back to the topic at hand?

Back to the lecture at hand...

spawn
12-22-2010, 04:39 PM
Back to the lecture at hand...

Perfection is perfected so I'ma let 'em understand...

Nellie_Fox
12-23-2010, 01:27 AM
Wow, I didn't know this forum was a place to get words spell checked. Now that I know, I'll come back here with others as well.
Firefox has spell-check built in.

DirtySox
12-23-2010, 01:41 AM
Can we get rid of strikeouts, too? Then all the old-timers wouldn't have to worry about things like K rate or phrases like "missing bats" and we could just focus on hitting the ball.

That thread was fantastic.