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View Full Version : Coop happy with Peavy's progress


vinny
12-20-2010, 08:17 PM
Link. (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101220&content_id=16350410&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws&partnerId=rss_cws)

Also, Sale planned as a starter this spring.

Frater Perdurabo
12-20-2010, 08:44 PM
That story also encouraged me. The 2010-2011 Sox offseason goes as good as any of us had any reason to expect.

Nelfox02
12-20-2010, 09:06 PM
encouraging, definitely very curious to see how the peavy story unfolds....at this point I am trying to take the approach that anything we get from him is bonus this year but the hope/expectation that we get good contributions from him in 2011 keep creeping in

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-20-2010, 11:00 PM
Good to hear. If Sale is gonna start, I hope the Sox can go out and get another solid BP addition.

hawkjt
12-21-2010, 08:12 AM
Sounds to me like Coop would prefer not switching Sale from starter to bullpen and would like to pick up an insurance starter instead,which is what I would like to see. Sox need a closer,and Sale is my pick.

Great news on Jake,tho. Really love to hear that Coop thinks he could be better than he ever has been with the Sox if this comes all the way back.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 08:19 AM
I'm glad to see them start stretching Sale out as a starter, it's in his best long-term interest and ours as a team, but man... That bullpen is looking thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin right now. Luckly it's December 21 and not March 21.

Corlose 15
12-21-2010, 09:03 AM
The best way things can turn out for the Sox of course is for Peavy to be ready on Opening Day. I don't know if that's possible but if he needs only a little bit of extended Spring Training to keep building up strength then I'd just prefer they skip the 5th spot when possible and have Pena spot start when needed.

Sale's future may be in the rotation but he best serves the 2011 White Sox in the bullpen.

johnnyg83
12-21-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm glad to see them start stretching Sale out as a starter, it's in his best long-term interest and ours as a team, but man... That bullpen is looking thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin right now. Luckly it's December 21 and not March 21.

We definitely need a couple more arms in the pen. I'll settle for one established and either one reclamation or youngster.

Randar68
12-21-2010, 12:43 PM
I'm glad to see them start stretching Sale out as a starter, it's in his best long-term interest and ours as a team, but man... That bullpen is looking thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin right now. Luckly it's December 21 and not March 21.

Given Sale's build and mechanics, I am not convinced it's in his best long term interest to be a starter nor in the team's short-term interest given the bullpen issues.

But only time will tell.

voodoochile
12-21-2010, 01:14 PM
I'm betting that right now they are counting on Santos being the closer. With Thornton expected to be the main LH setup man Sale's role would be as loogy. He's WAY more valuable as a starter than as a loogy.

Domeshot17
12-21-2010, 01:16 PM
Sale's future is 100% in the rotation. You don't piss away talent like this in the bullpen. Imagine if the Giants stuck Lincecum in the bullpen. We need to pick a path for this kid and keep him on it, don't pull a Joba with him.

Corlose 15
12-21-2010, 01:32 PM
Sale's future is 100% in the rotation. You don't piss away talent like this in the bullpen. Imagine if the Giants stuck Lincecum in the bullpen. We need to pick a path for this kid and keep him on it, don't pull a Joba with him.

With Peavy in the rotation is Sale one of the 5 best starters on the team? If not he should either be starting in AAA or pitching out of the bullpen. Given the team's depth in the bullpen it's a complete waste to have him starting in AAA. His future may be in the rotation but he serves the 2011 White Sox best at the back of the bullpen making life a living hell for Mauer, Morneau, Martinez, Kubel, Span, Avila, Boesch etc.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 01:50 PM
Sale's future is 100% in the rotation. You don't piss away talent like this in the bullpen. Imagine if the Giants stuck Lincecum in the bullpen. We need to pick a path for this kid and keep him on it, don't pull a Joba with him.

For a guy who'se probably never seen him start, you seem pretty convinced of that opinion.

I'd prefer we do whatever is best for Chris's future and not pigeonhole him into a role because "dat's wut your sposed ta do wit 1st rounders"

voodoochile
12-21-2010, 02:19 PM
For a guy who'se probably never seen him start, you seem pretty convinced of that opinion.

I'd prefer we do whatever is best for Chris's future and not pigeonhole him into a role because "dat's wut your sposed ta do wit 1st rounders"

Right but you generally start a guy with that much talent in the rotation and if he bombs out then try him in the bullpen.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 02:30 PM
Right but you generally start a guy with that much talent in the rotation and if he bombs out then try him in the bullpen.

No, the only reason people are getting all riled up about it is because Sale was a 1st round pick and "1st round picks are supposed to be starters." It's silly logic. 1st round picks are supposed to be contributing members of their teams. Sale might not have the talent to be a starter because he simply might not have the body to go out there every 5 days and throw 7 innings and that's OK, because he can be an effective left-handed reliever. It was no coincidence that the Sox season started tanking as soon as Jenks, Thornton, and Putz all started wearing down. The bullpen is also extremely important.

Ultimately, I have confidence in the Sox coaching staff to know what they have in Sale and know what to do best for his and our long-term prospects, and if that means stretching him out to start, that's great. If that means trying to protect his electric arm in the bullpen, that's great, too.

I don't know what the answer to the Sale riddle is. I don't know enough about pitcher's mechanics and technique to unequivocally state that he should be X and making him Y would be stupid. All I know is he has an electric left arm and I want him in whatever role allows him to pitch the most effective innings for the Sox. If he can handle the load of 35 starts, 200 innings, great he's a starter. If not, I'd prefer him make 70 or so 1 inning appearances and either close out games or get the game from our starters to Santos.

voodoochile
12-21-2010, 02:40 PM
Ultimately, I have confidence in the Sox coaching staff to know what they have in Sale and know what to do best for his and our long-term prospects, and if that means stretching him out to start, that's great. If that means trying to protect his electric arm in the bullpen, that's great, too.

I don't know what the answer to the Sale riddle is. I don't know enough about pitcher's mechanics and technique to unequivocally state that he should be X and making him Y would be stupid. All I know is he has an electric left arm and I want him in whatever role allows him to pitch the most effective innings for the Sox. If he can handle the load of 35 starts, 200 innings, great he's a starter. If not, I'd prefer him make 70 or so 1 inning appearances and either close out games or get the game from our starters to Santos.

Right and I agree with all these points. I just think if he can be a starter he should be. You always put as much talent in the rotation as you can and if the Sox think he can be a starter than they will get way more use out of him as the 5th guy in the rotation than they will with Freddie in the rotation and Sale in the BP.

MisterB
12-21-2010, 02:53 PM
Right but you generally start a guy with that much talent in the rotation and if he bombs out then try him in the bullpen.

The Sox have concerns about his durability right now, and want to see if he can fill out some before giving him a 180+ inning workload (he's listed as 6'5", 170 lbs currently).

One year pitching out of the pen isn't automatically going to ruin him.

Daver
12-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Right and I agree with all these points. I just think if he can be a starter he should be. You always put as much talent in the rotation as you can and if the Sox think he can be a starter than they will get way more use out of him as the 5th guy in the rotation than they will with Freddie in the rotation and Sale in the BP.

At this point Kirk may not have seen enough to make that decision for certain, and I doubt he is going to try and drastically change his mechanics, they tried that with Honel and it failed miserably.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 03:06 PM
At this point Kirk may not have seen enough to make that decision for certain, and I doubt he is going to try and drastically change his mechanics, they tried that with Honel and it failed miserably.

Its also possible Kris Honel was just one of those 99 out of 100 minor leaguers that are as worthless as a bag of ****, AMIRIGHT?

delben91
12-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Its also possible Kris Honel was just one of those 99 out of 100 minor leaguers that are as worthless as a bag of ****, AMIRIGHT?

:clap:

Daver
12-21-2010, 04:05 PM
Its also possible Kris Honel was just one of those 99 out of 100 minor leaguers that are as worthless as a bag of ****, AMIRIGHT?

That may very well be, the White Sox have been known to waste high round picks fairly consistently, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Domeshot17
12-21-2010, 09:23 PM
No, the only reason people are getting all riled up about it is because Sale was a 1st round pick and "1st round picks are supposed to be starters." It's silly logic. 1st round picks are supposed to be contributing members of their teams. Sale might not have the talent to be a starter because he simply might not have the body to go out there every 5 days and throw 7 innings and that's OK, because he can be an effective left-handed reliever. It was no coincidence that the Sox season started tanking as soon as Jenks, Thornton, and Putz all started wearing down. The bullpen is also extremely important.

Ultimately, I have confidence in the Sox coaching staff to know what they have in Sale and know what to do best for his and our long-term prospects, and if that means stretching him out to start, that's great. If that means trying to protect his electric arm in the bullpen, that's great, too.

I don't know what the answer to the Sale riddle is. I don't know enough about pitcher's mechanics and technique to unequivocally state that he should be X and making him Y would be stupid. All I know is he has an electric left arm and I want him in whatever role allows him to pitch the most effective innings for the Sox. If he can handle the load of 35 starts, 200 innings, great he's a starter. If not, I'd prefer him make 70 or so 1 inning appearances and either close out games or get the game from our starters to Santos.

Until Sale gives us a reason to be concerned over his health or durability, you start him, its that simple. It isn't about where he was drafted, its about how good he can be. Even with a 100% Peavy, the Sox don't have the top heavy pitching to go toe to toe with the big boys of the AL. The Rays are only getting better with the young stud SPs they have. The Red Sox are DEEP, and in a 5 or 7 game series, we don't match up well. Sale completely changes the game. It is simply much easier to find an effective closer then a number 1 SP. 1 costs 6-8 mil on the open market, 1 costs 20. Everything about Sale, from his talent to the economics of the game says we have to try him as an SP.

Daver
12-21-2010, 09:43 PM
Until Sale gives us a reason to be concerned over his health or durability, you start him, its that simple.

So when his mechanics put him out of the game you chalk it up as "oh well"?


You obviously have a towering wisdom that is above reproach.

Domeshot17
12-21-2010, 10:08 PM
So when his mechanics put him out of the game you chalk it up as "oh well"?


You obviously have a towering wisdom that is above reproach.

Mechanics, while highly important, are not the end all be all. Mark Prior had "perfect" mechanics and couldn't stay on the mound. Lincecum has terrible mechanics and is the best pitcher in the NL, probably baseball. Sale has proven to be durable so far through his college years.

That is my big concern. IF you don't stretch him out and start preparing his body for the workload of an SP, on that frame, it won't easily be gotten back. However, if you start stretching him out, the kids got a shot to be special.

It makes no sense at all to take the most talented pitcher on our team and say he has to be a middle reliever or a set up guy because we are a little scared something could possibly go wrong. John Danks is far more valuable than Matt Thornton, and Sale has the potential to blow Danks away in terms of talent.

Daver
12-21-2010, 10:15 PM
Mechanics, while highly important, are not the end all be all. Mark Prior had "perfect" mechanics and couldn't stay on the mound. Lincecum has terrible mechanics and is the best pitcher in the NL, probably baseball. Sale has proven to be durable so far through his college years.

That is my big concern. IF you don't stretch him out and start preparing his body for the workload of an SP, on that frame, it won't easily be gotten back. However, if you start stretching him out, the kids got a shot to be special.

It makes no sense at all to take the most talented pitcher on our team and say he has to be a middle reliever or a set up guy because we are a little scared something could possibly go wrong. John Danks is far more valuable than Matt Thornton, and Sale has the potential to blow Danks away in terms of talent.

Lincecum has terrible mechanics but throws from his legs, Sale has terrible mechanics and throws from his shoulder. Kirk has every reason to question whether he should be trying to throw 200 innings a year.

Corlose 15
12-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Until Sale gives us a reason to be concerned over his health or durability, you start him, its that simple. It isn't about where he was drafted, its about how good he can be. Even with a 100% Peavy, the Sox don't have the top heavy pitching to go toe to toe with the big boys of the AL. The Rays are only getting better with the young stud SPs they have. The Red Sox are DEEP, and in a 5 or 7 game series, we don't match up well. Sale completely changes the game. It is simply much easier to find an effective closer then a number 1 SP. 1 costs 6-8 mil on the open market, 1 costs 20. Everything about Sale, from his talent to the economics of the game says we have to try him as an SP.

How could you possibly say that Sale starting is the determining factor in whether or not the Sox could beat Boston in the playoffs (If either of them gets there). You have no idea how Sale would pan out as a starting pitcher.

Exactly how vaunted is Boston's starting rotation? Outside of Lester and Buccholz. Lackey was mediocre, Beckett was bad and hurt, Matsuzaka is mediocre, and Wakefield wasn't very good either.

As for Tampa Bay, if you think the Sox bullpen is thin Tampa Bay's is even worse. They've already lost Benoit, and Wheeler and are likely to lose both Soriano and Balfour.

Domeshot17
12-22-2010, 12:09 PM
How could you possibly say that Sale starting is the determining factor in whether or not the Sox could beat Boston in the playoffs (If either of them gets there). You have no idea how Sale would pan out as a starting pitcher.

Exactly how vaunted is Boston's starting rotation? Outside of Lester and Buccholz. Lackey was mediocre, Beckett was bad and hurt, Matsuzaka is mediocre, and Wakefield wasn't very good either.

As for Tampa Bay, if you think the Sox bullpen is thin Tampa Bay's is even worse. They've already lost Benoit, and Wheeler and are likely to lose both Soriano and Balfour.

I don't think Sale would anchor the rotation this year, my point was most of the contenders have DEEP rotations, and in a series where you only use 3 or 4 SP, we don't fare well 1-2 in almost any case. Unless Peavy is really at 100%, we have no one who is going to go toe to toe with these guys.

Tampa's pen may be thin right now, but they have so much pitching in the minor leagues, they will end up alright. Their Rotation by seasons end could be the best in baseball.

Red Barchetta
12-22-2010, 12:14 PM
Nothing will change in 2011 unless the SOX get the Twins out of their heads. The SOX had a better record than the Twins last year, except against the Twins.

Each year/offseason we're all anxious to dismiss the Twins as rebuilding and every season they are right there competing (only to get swept in the playoffs). :rolleyes:

As to Peavy, if we have him back by All-Star break in full form, that will be a plus to the season. If the SOX don't re-sign Sweaty Freddie, Sale is our best option as the 5th starter.

doublem23
12-22-2010, 12:23 PM
Until Sale gives us a reason to be concerned over his health or durability, you start him, its that simple. It isn't about where he was drafted, its about how good he can be. Even with a 100% Peavy, the Sox don't have the top heavy pitching to go toe to toe with the big boys of the AL. The Rays are only getting better with the young stud SPs they have. The Red Sox are DEEP, and in a 5 or 7 game series, we don't match up well. Sale completely changes the game. It is simply much easier to find an effective closer then a number 1 SP. 1 costs 6-8 mil on the open market, 1 costs 20. Everything about Sale, from his talent to the economics of the game says we have to try him as an SP.

The Red Sox SP staff sucks. That is all.

I agree with you that Sale should be starting, if he can handle the load, but you are simply ignoring the very real concerns that a lot of people have about his ability to pitch the innings required to be a top of the line SP. I personally am not saying he can or can't one way or the other, I just know there are baseball people out there with a lot more knowledge and wisdom than I have who have concerns about Sale. If he can do it, he is a top-of-the-line starter, but there is just no reason to force him into that role because that's what guys like that are supposed to do. Guys with his talent are supposed to be perform in the roles that maximize their value to their team, and any way you cut it, a lights out LH reliever is more important than an oft-injured LH starter.

Domeshot17
12-22-2010, 12:50 PM
The Red Sox SP staff sucks. That is all.

I agree with you that Sale should be starting, if he can handle the load, but you are simply ignoring the very real concerns that a lot of people have about his ability to pitch the innings required to be a top of the line SP. I personally am not saying he can or can't one way or the other, I just know there are baseball people out there with a lot more knowledge and wisdom than I have who have concerns about Sale. If he can do it, he is a top-of-the-line starter, but there is just no reason to force him into that role because that's what guys like that are supposed to do. Guys with his talent are supposed to be perform in the roles that maximize their value to their team, and any way you cut it, a lights out LH reliever is more important than an oft-injured LH starter.

I actually 100% agree with you, just must be stating my opinion wrong. What I was saying was until we deem that he cannot start because of his delivery or mechanics or body type, we have to prepare him as an SP. If the staff determines he can't do it, then by all means, you make him a closer. My fear was more the Neftali Feliz situation, where now you have this elite elite SP prospect who you don't want to start because they were a dominant closer.

Foulke You
12-22-2010, 03:16 PM
The Sox have concerns about his durability right now, and want to see if he can fill out some before giving him a 180+ inning workload (he's listed as 6'5", 170 lbs currently).

One year pitching out of the pen isn't automatically going to ruin him.
I agree. Derek Lowe pitched a couple years in the back end of the Red Sox bullpen before becoming a solid starting pitcher. There is no harm in starting Sale on a similar path. Also, I would really like Sale to learn another pitch or two before having him start. He seemed like primarily a 2 pitch pitcher last year which is fine for a bullpen guy but a starter needs a little more of an arsenal.

Domeshot17
12-22-2010, 03:30 PM
I agree. Derek Lowe pitched a couple years in the back end of the Red Sox bullpen before becoming a solid starting pitcher. There is no harm in starting Sale on a similar path. Also, I would really like Sale to learn another pitch or two before having him start. He seemed like primarily a 2 pitch pitcher last year which is fine for a bullpen guy but a starter needs a little more of an arsenal.

He has a plus change up but he doesn't showcase it much out of the pen.

NSFWSoxFan
12-24-2010, 10:36 PM
All this talk about Sale as fill-in starter if Peavy isn't ready. What's happened with Freddy Garcia? Wouldn't he be perfect for this role if he's healthy?