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View Full Version : Who Are The White Sox Five Starting Pitchers?


soxinem1
12-20-2010, 10:26 AM
With Grienke now traded to MIL and Pavano due to sign with someone soon, the lack of available starters will probably give Freddie Garcia more lucrative options than one might have thought a few months ago.

Several teams have asked for his medical reports, while as both time and options dwindle, one would have to figure that Garcia could get a decent payday.

Thus , many of us thinking he would sign here on the cheap might be sadly mistaken.

With some rumors surrounding Edwin Jackson being shopped, along with Gavin Floyd and even Mark Buehrle, who will the starting five be, even if none of them get traded?

While Chris Sale looks to be the best #1 pick pitcher the team has made since Alex Fernandez, I kind of doubt his future is in a big league rotation, and jerking him around from role to role in his first full season is not the right thing for any pitcher. Especially one with not even a year of pro experience.

So who do you have?

Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Jackson
????

You can't depend on Peavy at all this year. I think you have to prepare for the season as if he is not part of the plan. If he is not ready to go, you leave him be as long as you have to, especially since he is an expensive piece of overhead if you rush him back and he gets hurt again.

So does this mean that KW might have to really work on signing Garcia again? Or take the gamble on Tony Pena to start, something he has always wanted to do anyway?

Thoughts?

DonnieDarko
12-20-2010, 10:34 AM
With Grienke now traded to MIL and Pavano due to sign with someone soon, the lack of available starters will probably give Freddie Garcia more lucrative options than one might have thought a few months ago.

Several teams have asked for his medical reports, while as both time and options dwindle, one would have to figure that Garcia could get a decent payday.

Thus , many of us thinking he would sign here on the cheap might be sadly mistaken.

With some rumors surrounding Edwin Jackson being shopped, along with Gavin Floyd and even Mark Buehrle, who will the starting five be, even if none of them get traded?

While Chris Sale looks to be the best #1 pick pitcher the team has made since Alex Fernandez, I kind of doubt his future is in a big league rotation, and jerking him around from role to role in his first full season is not the right thing for any pitcher. Especially one with not even a year of pro experience.

So who do you have?

Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Jackson
????

You can't depend on Peavy at all this year. I think you have to prepare for the season as if he is not part of the plan. If he is not ready to go, you leave him be as long as you have to, especially since he is an expensive piece of overhead if you rush him back and he gets hurt again.

So does this mean that KW might have to really work on signing Garcia again? Or take the gamble on Tony Pena to start, something he has always wanted to do anyway?

Thoughts?

I still say that Sale is the best option we have until Peavy comes back, and I would be willing to bet dimes to donuts that he's our fifth starter on opening day. However! I still think that we should make a pass at Garcia, just to see what his asking price is. If it's not too high and we can still afford to fill out the bullpen, then I say sign him and make him our fifth starter again, relegating Sale to the bullpen.

Lip Man 1
12-20-2010, 10:42 AM
"You can't depend on Peavy at all this year."

That's a little strong in my opinion. I think he'll pitch this year and from all indications at this point, sooner rather than later in it.

We'll see.

Lip

DonnieDarko
12-20-2010, 10:44 AM
Out of curiosity, what are these "indications" that you speak of?

Lip Man 1
12-20-2010, 11:08 AM
The published reports in the various newspapers that have stated he is ahead of schedule, beginning long toss already and that medically there is no reason based on his injury why he can't pitch again.

The uncertainty among fans seems to center around the fact that no pitcher has ever had this particular type injury before so there isn't a baseline to compare it to. That's far different from having an injury that structurally effects the arm however.

Throw in Peavy's personality and his strong desire to return and I simply am optimistic about all this.

Lip

Harry Potter
12-20-2010, 11:13 AM
With some rumors surrounding Edwin Jackson being shopped, along with Gavin Floyd and even Mark Buehrle, who will the starting five be, even if none of them get traded?

What about the possibility of them shopping Danks? As time passes, the chances of us signing him to a long term contract seem more remote :(:

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-20-2010, 11:19 AM
What about the possibility of them shopping Danks? As time passes, the chances of us signing him to a long term contract seem more remote :(:

Danks seems intent on exploring FA, so whoever might trade for him wouldn't be willing to give much unless Danks agrees to an extension with them.

KMcMahon817
12-20-2010, 11:20 AM
What makes you so sure Sale is destined for the bullpen, Soxinem? (Let me guess: his jerky windup? Meh) I disagree. I do think he would be valuable out of the bullpen this year, but with Buehrle and Jackson coming off the books after 2012, we need him in the rotation. But, maybe we can have both..

My guess is that he is our 5th starter until Peavy comes back. It is the cheapest option, and really, probably the best option. I think that the SOX make Sale a late inning BP arm/spot starter/long reliever once Peavy returns. By doing this, the SOX keep Sale relatively stretched out, and minimize the chance of Peavy reinjuring himself.

I love me some Sweaty Freddy, but he really walked the tight rope last season in most starts. If he is back I wouldnt be shocked, but as you stated, I am sure he will get better offers elsewhere.

soxinem1
12-20-2010, 01:44 PM
The published reports in the various newspapers that have stated he is ahead of schedule, beginning long toss already and that medically there is no reason based on his injury why he can't pitch again.

The uncertainty among fans seems to center around the fact that no pitcher has ever had this particular type injury before so there isn't a baseline to compare it to. That's far different from having an injury that structurally effects the arm however.

Throw in Peavy's personality and his strong desire to return and I simply am optimistic about all this.

Lip

Optimism and Peavy's gamesmanship aside, as you mentioned, this injury has no precedent, much like Richard Dotson's injury that required removal of a chest muscle. In Dot's case, though not directly arm related, his fastball pretty much disappeared after that.

I understand medical procedures have come a long way since then, however Dotson also had a more fluid delivery than Peavy, which is my worry.

And despite Peavy's tough guy personna, it will always be in the back of his mind, at least for the first 10-15 starts once he does return.

We shall see.

JB98
12-20-2010, 02:42 PM
What about the possibility of them shopping Danks? As time passes, the chances of us signing him to a long term contract seem more remote :(:

If KW trades Danks now, he might ruin all the goodwill he's built up with me so far this offseason. Danks is still under the Sox control for two more years and his contractual issues are a problem that can be solved at a later time. Right now, we're looking at trying to win a championship in 2011.

I don't think KW will trade John or any of our starters. The five we have are a pretty solid group, but we have no organizational depth at all.

To answer the question posed by the OP, we go Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Jackson and Sale to start the year. When Peavy returns, Sale moves to the back end of the bullpen. I think they are going to keep a watch on his innings this year anyway.

I'm opposed to trading starting pitching or even starting position players to fortify the bullpen. I think KW can still get another bullpen arm for a reasonable price in free agency before the offseason is over. Prices for some of these veteran guys tend to come down when spring training gets closer and they still don't have a contract.

konerko 14
12-20-2010, 03:30 PM
Why not resign Garcia for one more year just to be the fifth starter until Peavy comes back, then we'd have the same rotation as the second half of last year.

SoxNation05
12-20-2010, 03:39 PM
If not Freddy, Chris Young is free agent. If he ever is healthy he could be good. Maybe our training staff can help him. Probaby dreaming.

areilly
12-20-2010, 04:40 PM
The published reports in the various newspapers that have stated he is ahead of schedule, beginning long toss already and that medically there is no reason based on his injury why he can't pitch again.

Once upon a time, "on schedule" meant Opening Day.

Hitmen77
12-20-2010, 04:41 PM
The published reports in the various newspapers that have stated he is ahead of schedule, beginning long toss already and that medically there is no reason based on his injury why he can't pitch again.

The uncertainty among fans seems to center around the fact that no pitcher has ever had this particular type injury before so there isn't a baseline to compare it to. That's far different from having an injury that structurally effects the arm however.

Throw in Peavy's personality and his strong desire to return and I simply am optimistic about all this.

Lip

I wish I shared your optimism about Peavy.

It's not only uncertainty among fans. Since this type of injury is pretty much unprecedented for a pitcher, that's a huge uncertainty for KW and the Sox too. Even if he's healthy enough to pitch, how will this injury affect his velocity?

If he does come back sooner rather than later without diminished ability, that of course makes the Sox look pretty solid for 2011 with a good looking lineup, a solid 1-5 rotation and Thornton, Sale, Crain, and Santos already securing bullpen spots.

But, how should the Sox prepare for the possibility that Peavy won't be back soon (or will struggle upon return)? Do they look for a 5th starter this offseason? Or do they look for additional bullpen help with the idea that Sale might be a starter for most of 2011?

areilly
12-20-2010, 04:47 PM
It's not only uncertainty among fans. Since this type of injury is pretty much unprecedented for a pitcher, that's a huge uncertainty for KW and the Sox too. Even if he's healthy enough to pitch, how will this injury affect his velocity?

Exactly. It's one thing to say he'll pitch again; it's another, much bolder (and more presumptious) thing to assume that he'll pitch like the guy the Sox traded for.

Noneck
12-20-2010, 04:55 PM
I really have no problem keeping Peavys slot warm with Pena and hope for cold weather cancellations. I dont like the idea of Sale making some starts till Peavy comes back but will accept that, if he is then sent to AA to become the starter he should be in the future.

The main problem I see is no starter depth in the minors. Injuries happen and the Sox have no one to bring up and is major league ready if that happens.

Lip Man 1
12-20-2010, 05:01 PM
Hit:

As Noneck said Pena is with the Sox remember and can spot start if needed. I'd think if the Sox have any questions about Peaby as we get into February that they'd try to sign a starter on the cheap for insurance.

Whether they do or not is a strong indication of how Peavy is coming along in my opinion.

Lip

Daver
12-20-2010, 05:04 PM
I really have no problem keeping Peavys slot warm with Pena and hope for cold weather cancellations. I dont like the idea of Sale making some starts till Peavy comes back but will accept that, if he is then sent to AA to become the starter he should be in the future.

The main problem I see is no starter depth in the minors. Injuries happen and the Sox have no one to bring up and is major league ready if that happens.

The White Sox have a pretty good track record with keeping pitchers healthy.

Optimism on Peavy's return is all well and good, but even if he is cleared to throw off the mound at the beginning of spring training I doubt he will be ready to pitch off a mound come opening day.

delben91
12-20-2010, 05:05 PM
Whether they do or not is a strong indication of how Peavy is coming along in my opinion.

Lip

Maybe, but signing a couple "stringers" for AAA depth just in case could happen too. Not necessarily an indication of Peavy's progress or lack thereof.

Noneck
12-20-2010, 05:22 PM
The White Sox have a pretty good track record with keeping pitchers healthy.

Optimism on Peavy's return is all well and good, but even if he is cleared to throw off the mound at the beginning of spring training I doubt he will be ready to pitch off a mound come opening day.

Yes I know but it still would be nice to know someone could be brought up, if something happens.

I know Peavy wont be ready but is it possible that he will be ready by the beginning of May? Thats what I am basing my thoughts on. If not, they have to get someone to fill his slot.

slavko
12-20-2010, 05:24 PM
What does "this type of injury is unprecedented for a pitcher" say about Jake's delivery? If I were a gambling man, I'd bet you all a lemon cookie that he comes back and goes DL before the year is over.

I'd keep Sale stretched out. We may need him to start permanently.

soxinem1
12-20-2010, 05:26 PM
Some are still specualting about signing Garcia, however this is not 2009 going into 2010.

If teams are dumping $3-4 million a year for middle relievers, and with more than a few teams really needing an arm in their rotations, I would really be suprised, unless the medical reports are bad, that Garcia cannot get $4-5 million on a one year deal.

And that may be too much for KW to pay.

Honestly, I'd take a chance on Kevin Millwood if he wants to be 2010's Garcia.

At least the innings would be there. But even he might be able to get $4-5 million just for the innings he could provide.

KMcMahon817
12-20-2010, 06:07 PM
Some are still specualting about signing Garcia, however this is not 2009 going into 2010.

If teams are dumping $3-4 million a year for middle relievers, and with more than a few teams really needing an arm in their rotations, I would really be suprised, unless the medical reports are bad, that Garcia cannot get $4-5 million on a one year deal.

And that may be too much for KW to pay.

Honestly, I'd take a chance on Kevin Millwood if he wants to be 2010's Garcia.

At least the innings would be there. But even he might be able to get $4-5 million just for the innings he could provide.

Still curious what makes you so sure that Sale is destined for the bullpen...?

Daver
12-20-2010, 06:10 PM
Still curious what makes you so sure that Sale is destined for the bullpen...?

The statements made by the team saying they want him in the bullpen?

DumpJerry
12-20-2010, 06:17 PM
There are too many statements in this thread I disagree with for me to start to list. Anyway, most of them are statements I've responded to in the past, so there is no need to repeat myself. *couch* Chris Sale is the next Randy Johnson *cough*

However, with respect to Peavy, I never put any credibility into media reports that a player is "doing well" when rehabbing from a bad injury until I see the guy on the 25 man roster. Unlike the NFL, MLB teams are not required to give accurate health reports to the media and opposing teams. I am working on the assumption the next time we see Peavy in a Sox uniform will be April, 2012. If he comes back this season, I'll be happy. However, when thinking about this season, I will not include Peavy into my calculus of how the team will do until he is activated from the DL.

Lip Man 1
12-20-2010, 09:24 PM
Story on White Sox.com quoting Don Cooper on a throwing session Peavy had two weeks ago. Cooper is very impressed with what's going on. Peavy looks to be coming along extremely well.

Lip

HomeFish
12-20-2010, 11:17 PM
According to another thread on WSI, Sale will be a starter.

DumpJerry
12-21-2010, 07:02 AM
According to another thread on WSI, Sale will be a starter.
More relevant is the fact that last month the team annouced he will be a starter with Peavy out. Everyone seems to forget this in their rush to protect him from himself.

NLaloosh
12-21-2010, 07:23 AM
The Sox want to finish ahead of Minnesota this year? They better get themselves a solid 5th starter before the season starts.

Counting on a Peavy that hasn't started 30 games in a season since 2007 and has had several injuries since then including one that makes this comeback "unprecedented" is foolish.

Counting on Chris Sale with 20 professional career innings total is foolish.

The Sox depth after that is Lucas Harrel. I don't think there's a team in baseball with less minor league pitching depth than the White Sox. It's even possible that one of the other 4 workhorses on the staff could sustain an injury.

I think they need Freddy Garcia or the equivalent. It's not like there would be no room in the pen if by some unlikely circumstance Peavy is his Cy Young self by May.

You know the games in April count toward the team's final record.

Corlose 15
12-21-2010, 09:42 AM
Optimism and Peavy's gamesmanship aside, as you mentioned, this injury has no precedent, much like Richard Dotson's injury that required removal of a chest muscle. In Dot's case, though not directly arm related, his fastball pretty much disappeared after that.

I understand medical procedures have come a long way since then, however Dotson also had a more fluid delivery than Peavy, which is my worry.

And despite Peavy's tough guy personna, it will always be in the back of his mind, at least for the first 10-15 starts once he does return.

We shall see.

No offense but this is a pretty useless comparision. Not only are they different injuries but they occured 25 years apart. Orthopedic surgery is light years ahead of what they were when Dotson had his injury.

Furthermore, Peavy hasn't lost the muscle. It cleanly came off and was reattached successfully. He's been cleared medically to start throwing and has not issues in terms of healing. His major issue at this point seems to be building up the strength in his latissimus after it undergoing atrophy due to being immobilized for so long and trusting his arm again. What Cooper was excited about in that story was how free and easy Peavy was throwing and how Peavy finally felt "normal". Coop mentioned how he had delivery issues leading up to his injury and it wasn't a one time thing.

In pure speculation, I'd say that Peavy's ankle injury sub-consciously caused him to alter his mechanics which lead to arm problems. Based on the article, it seems like he's back to his old delivery.

soxfanreggie
12-21-2010, 09:48 AM
While I think we can come up with enough coverage to fill in a few spots (using someone like Harrel), I would like to explore options with Freddy. We have a great relationship with each other, and I hope he has seen the efforts we have made to help build a championship club.

Until we turn into the Yankees, we're going to have to try some things and hope they work (starting a rookie or hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a journeyman). We've had some success with that in the past, and if that happens with a few people along with our top guys having good success, we'll hopefully have a shot at another 2005.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2010, 11:44 AM
In the nespaper stories today on the Sox signing Crane, he said Kenny told him the Sox have Sale and Thornton for the back end of the bullpen.

That's a direct quote from Crane...take it for what that's worth.

Lip

KMcMahon817
12-21-2010, 12:10 PM
The statements made by the team saying they want him in the bullpen?

Ahh..they have also said that they want him as a starter in the long term... Wasn't asking you, anyway.

russ99
12-21-2010, 12:18 PM
In the nespaper stories today on the Sox signing Crane, he said Kenny told him the Sox have Sale and Thornton for the back end of the bullpen.

That's a direct quote from Crane...take it for what that's worth.

Lip

Doesn't seem like a big issue now. Don't the starters stretch out over the course of Spring Training?

So if Peavy hasn't come along as expected or has a setback by mid February, there's plenty of time to move Sale into the rotation.

Personally, I'd much prefer Sale in the pen. That way he can help the big-league club this year, and he's already shown he can get good major league hitters out. Does it really matter if he's an impact closer instead of a solid starter?

I could care less about saving face or comparing to other teams due to how good of a prospect he can be. Prospects don't win games, big leaguers do. And Sale is a big league reliever right now.

With frequent days off in the early schedule, we could go with 4 starters for the first 3 weeks of the season if Peavy isn't ready right away.

Domeshot17
12-21-2010, 01:19 PM
Doesn't seem like a big issue now. Don't the starters stretch out over the course of Spring Training?

So if Peavy hasn't come along as expected or has a setback by mid February, there's plenty of time to move Sale into the rotation.

Personally, I'd much prefer Sale in the pen. That way he can help the big-league club this year, and he's already shown he can get good major league hitters out. Does it really matter if he's an impact closer instead of a solid starter?

I could care less about saving face or comparing to other teams due to how good of a prospect he can be. Prospects don't win games, big leaguers do. And Sale is a big league reliever right now.

With frequent days off in the early schedule, we could go with 4 starters for the first 3 weeks of the season if Peavy isn't ready right away.

Thank god you don't run the team. You don't waste talent like Sale as a reliever. If you think there is no difference between a starter and reliever I really don't know how to answer that. Sale has more talent and potential then any pitcher not named Peavy on our team in a long time. We might have a true, flat out number 1 SP for the first time since Buehrle's early career.

DonnieDarko
12-21-2010, 01:31 PM
It's Crain, people. CRAIN, not Crane. :tongue:

KMcMahon817
12-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Doesn't seem like a big issue now. Don't the starters stretch out over the course of Spring Training?

So if Peavy hasn't come along as expected or has a setback by mid February, there's plenty of time to move Sale into the rotation.

Personally, I'd much prefer Sale in the pen. That way he can help the big-league club this year, and he's already shown he can get good major league hitters out. Does it really matter if he's an impact closer instead of a solid starter?

I could care less about saving face or comparing to other teams due to how good of a prospect he can be. Prospects don't win games, big leaguers do. And Sale is a big league reliever right now.

With frequent days off in the early schedule, we could go with 4 starters for the first 3 weeks of the season if Peavy isn't ready right away.

Yes. It matters quite a bit when Buehrle and Jackson are gone after 2011. It maters more when Danks, Floyd, and Peavy are likely gone after 2012 (Floyd and Peavy have expensive options). The SOX need Sale as a starter in the future. It would be very beneficial to his development as a starter if the SOX kept him relatively stretched out this season.

doublem23
12-21-2010, 02:10 PM
Thank god you don't run the team. You don't waste talent like Sale as a reliever. If you think there is no difference between a starter and reliever I really don't know how to answer that. Sale has more talent and potential then any pitcher not named Peavy on our team in a long time. We might have a true, flat out number 1 SP for the first time since Buehrle's early career.

Yes. It matters quite a bit when Buehrle and Jackson are gone after 2011. It maters more when Danks, Floyd, and Peavy are likely gone after 2012 (Floyd and Peavy have expensive options). The SOX need Sale as a starter in the future. It would be very beneficial to his development as a starter if the SOX kept him relatively stretched out this season.

You guys are ignoring that there were plenty of draft experts who wondered if Sale had the frame or mechanics to throw 200+ innings every year at the Major League level. Bottom line is Don Cooper and the Sox pitching coaching staff has done enough (IMO) during his tenure here that I trust his instincts and judgment when it comes these kind of decisions, what's best for the Sox is what's best for Sale (and vice versa), and there's a real chance that he's better as a lights out closer than an oft-injured starter.

KMcMahon817
12-21-2010, 06:31 PM
You guys are ignoring that there were plenty of draft experts who wondered if Sale had the frame or mechanics to throw 200+ innings every year at the Major League level. Bottom line is Don Cooper and the Sox pitching coaching staff has done enough (IMO) during his tenure here that I trust his instincts and judgment when it comes these kind of decisions, what's best for the Sox is what's best for Sale (and vice versa), and there's a real chance that he's better as a lights out closer than an oft-injured starter.

I agree with everything you said. I don't think Sale is this can't miss starting pitcher that is going to be a for sure staff ace. But, I do like what I see, and I think it would be rather stupid to never give him a shot at starting in the big leagues.

You add to that the fact that ALL of the SOX pitchers are under contract for 1 or 2 more years, and there is an obvious need for starting pitching in the near future. I think that the SOX HAVE to give Sale a shot at starting at some point. It doesn't have to be this year, but having him in the BP also worries me because I really do think he will thrive there, as he did this past season. There is no problem with being a lights out closer or reliever, but a cheap young starter is more valueable, in my opinion. I don't really want a Feliz or Papelbon story to happen, but again, just my take.

Domeshot17
12-21-2010, 09:19 PM
so explain to me how it works with Sale? He throws some good innings in the pen, so we pigeon hole him into being a reliever? The truth is, if the Sox had concerns on his durability, they should not have drafted him. You don't draft relievers in the top 15 in the draft. The ones who go early generally never work out (Hansen, Ryan Wagner). You don't put him in the pen because it would be 2 years removed from him being a starter, and now after 2 years in the pros you send him down to stretch his arm out?

Last year it made perfect sense. We needed a way to sign him cheaply (because that is what we do in the draft), so we offer him a quick shot then a chance to return to starting. He had thrown a lot of innings in college so we didn't want to hurt his arm.

Pitchers who get jerked around from the pen and the rotation rarely work out. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Phil Hughes and it took him some time to put it together.

No one is saying Sale is can't miss, but he has far too much potential as a starter to ignore it, and you don't ruin the best pitcher your system has probably ever had at a short sighted run at a world title when he doesn't make your team that close to the big dogs.

I am all for doing what it takes to try and luck out vs the AL East, but not at the cost of Sale. He could very well be our number 1 next year.

StillMissOzzie
12-22-2010, 02:02 PM
Whether the Sox make any effort to pursue Sweaty Freddie or not for the 2011 campaign, whether Peavy is ready at the beginning of the season or not, I think it would be in the Sox' best interests to stretch out Sale as a starter in spring training.
Even if Peavy is ready to go, I think that he will be treated with kid gloves for a while: no starts in chilly weather, maybe some extra time between starts, and probably a short, strict pitch count until he is up to speed. All of these would indicate the need for another starter or long reliever ready to step in. I think a young Chris Sale is much more suited for this role than a sunset years Freddy Garcia.

SMO
:gulp:

DonnieDarko
12-23-2010, 01:26 AM
So you think that the Sox will alternate in Sale and someone like...Pena on different days until Peavy come back? Then what, throw them both in the bullpen? If we're in a pennant race, sure, I don't see why not. But over the long run, I don't think that we treat Sale as only a reliever just yet.