PDA

View Full Version : Garland?


delben91
08-06-2001, 08:40 AM
Hey all, I couldn't get near a tv yesterday and thus missed the game. From seeing the box score, seems like I was better off. I was wondering how Garland looked. Seemed to have a decent outing, 4 runs, 3 earned in 7 innings. And better yet, 99 pitches in those 7 innings, so that would tend to indicate he was around the plate. Tell me if I'm wrong though. Thanks.

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2001, 08:45 AM
I turned the game on in and we were down 3-0. Someone here said that Valentin booted a ball that would have made Vaughn's homer a 2 run shot. Also I think it was in the 7th when Liefer booted a ball as well. The Rays had 1st and 2nd and a perfect double play ball was hit to Liefer but he misplayed it and the Rays had bases loaded wit nobody out. Then the next batter rolled into a double play which let the run score. So I think Jon pitched pretty good but I didn't see the first few innings.

steelsox
08-06-2001, 10:59 AM
Garland looked like a below average pitcher again. Gave up too many hits. 10 in 7 I think. Way too many for the hype that's pushed about him. But this year is over and what the heck, bring him back for another below average year next year. Where was all the hype about Beurle. How does a scout know. Obviously the Sox scouts don't. How many years should this kid get anyway. Yesterday it could have been much worse in the runs column and usually is when he starts....

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by steelsox
Garland looked like a below average pitcher again. Gave up too many hits. 10 in 7 I think. Way too many for the hype that's pushed about him. But this year is over and what the heck, bring him back for another below average year next year.


dude do you know anything about baseball? Jon Garland is 22 years old and has fantastic stuff. Hes going to be a great pitcher in the major leagues for a long long time. 22 year old pitchers dont dominate out there. Hes in a learning process and its going to take another couple years. Learn something, anything, about baseball before you shoot your mouth off and doubt what a major league scout knows. OBVIOUSLY youre a pissed off cub fan who isnt happy you gave away jon.....

OfficerKarkovice
08-06-2001, 11:25 AM
Ohhh Bmr...throwing out the troll acusation on the dude's first post! Thats what we like to see...:)

Randar68
08-06-2001, 11:27 AM
dude do you know anything about baseball? Jon Garland is 22 years old and has fantastic stuff. Hes going to be a great pitcher in the major leagues for a long long time. 22 year old pitchers dont dominate out there. Hes in a learning process and its going to take another couple years. Learn something, anything, about baseball before you shoot your mouth off and doubt what a major league scout knows. OBVIOUSLY youre a pissed off cub fan who isnt happy you gave away jon.....

Well, BMR, now i remember why we always had huge arguements...LOL!!!

Anyways, he has a right to his opinion. Garland did look very rough out there again, too many "get-me-over" pitches, that's for sure.

As usual, the defense fell asleep, and as I have said all along, I don't care how badly you need Liefer's bat in there, you DO NOT SACRIFICE 3B for him......1st or LF, that's it, he's a hack.

Garland and Kip haven't had the best defensive help. Garland is a pure ground ball pitcher, and it's obvious that his repetoire does not fit Kip and Buehrle's, so he has a tough time. He needs the benefit of a veteran slider-pitcher to teach him when and how to throw it and throw it for strikes, because that seems to be his biggest problem. Spotting his fastball is a bit of a problem too, but for a 21 year-old, he is going to get many more chances to prove himself. He still doesn't appear comfortable on the mound when he is starting....

Just my observations, but he's 1 year younger than Buehrle, and look what he's doing..........needs to mature between the ears....

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 11:39 AM
You only have a right to your opinion when its based on knowledge. To expect a 22 year old pitcher to dominate, shows zero knowledge.

FarWestChicago
08-06-2001, 12:22 PM
Ohhh Bmr...throwing out the troll acusation on the dude's first post! Thats what we like to see...

Well, that's guys message was ridiculous. Garland gave up 2 earned runs. Granted, I could have hit that thing he threw to Vaughn, but Garland does not suck.

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2001, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Granted, I could have hit that thing he threw to Vaughn, but Garland does not suck.

:valet
Think you could hit me?

Jjav829
08-06-2001, 12:30 PM
:harold

I could probably hit you.

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2001, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
:harold

I could probably hit you.

Harold please quit.

Jjav829
08-06-2001, 12:38 PM
Harold please quit.

I've given up my thinking of Harold retiring. Probably because hes not playing anymore, but also because I was tired of screaming at him, or at him on the TV about how much I hate him and want him to retire.

OfficerKarkovice
08-06-2001, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Well, that's guys message was ridiculous. Garland gave up 2 earned runr. Granted, I could have hit that thing he threw to Vaughn, but Garland does not suck.

I agree completely...when you look at the top pitchers in the majors who are they...Clemens, Johnson, Pedro, Schilling, etc. They are all in the late stages of their careers. We just need to be patient as hard as it may be. Jon, IMO, is going to be a very good pitcher in the majors eventually.

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Well, that's guys message was ridiculous. Garland gave up 2 earned runr. Granted, I could have hit that thing he threw to Vaughn, but Garland does not suck.

what did i miss? LOL

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Ohhh Bmr...throwing out the troll acusation on the dude's first post! Thats what we like to see...:)


seems pretty obvious to me!:)

FarWestChicago
08-06-2001, 01:07 PM
seems pretty obvious to me!

Actually, I know that guy. He's a member of the Ken Blanks-Dima School of Sox Fandom. :)

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 01:14 PM
even worse then......a FAKE sox fan .

delben91
08-06-2001, 01:22 PM
Oh man, I'd forgotten all about Blanksie. It's a shame he's not around anymore :P

steelsox
08-06-2001, 01:40 PM
In 5 yrs I'll remember you shooting your mouth off. If I was a Cub fan I'd be glad to see Garland on the Sox. As of yet he has done nothing at the Major league level. Sorry, I want to win NOW, not if 5 years when he decides to stop grooving pitches and starts mixing it up. And as far as baseball knowledge, I'll go toe to toe with you on the diamond any day.....

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 01:44 PM
OOOOO... someone is smarter than someone else... and we will prove it here today...

Okay, SteelSox, prove that garland sucks... It is impossible to prove a negative ("Gartland does not suck") so the burden lies on you...

We will await your proof...

Joel Perez
08-06-2001, 01:51 PM
Saw the game on WGN yesterday....

Pretty decent outing. The only mistake that I saw yesterday was his last pitch to Greg Vaughn in the first inning, a "get-me-over" offspeed pitch that Greg tagged for a line-drive home run.

Otherwise, the defense was helter-skelter: 4 Double plays (YEAH!!!) but Liefer's boot in the 7th gave way to Garland's fourth run allowed. Can't fault Jon for that.

It wasn't great, but wasn't bad either. Not bad for his 2nd start from the pen. Can't wait to see more.

steelsox
08-06-2001, 02:01 PM
Voodoochile,,, never said he sucked, he just hasn't been that good.. Look up Pedro Martinez stats, now he is and always has been good. So how many more year. Pedro was good his second with a team much worse in LA than the Sox.. You got you opinion and I got mine.. In the end we'll see who's right. If the Sox hold on to him I hope your right.... Martinez has had 1 year with an ERA above 3.51 and that was 3.7...

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 02:18 PM
okay, so since Garland doesn't have stats as good as Pedro has had, he will never be a good pitcher? Come on... that's plain ridiculous...

By that standard, 95% of the pitchers in the league are no good...

Garland has already shown he can pitch on this level, albeit so far he has shown more success out of the pen, but his performance yesterday (7IP, 3ER) was not a bad perfomance. Yes, he gave up too many hits, but he showed the ability to pitch over his mistakes. If he can locate his pitchers better, he should be fine. You have to remember, that for all of his hype, he is only 21 and is just completing his second partial year at the major league level. His ERA is below 4 and his last two starts he has pitched well enough to win, even if he hasn't. Give the kid some time... He has less than 6 months of realtime experience on this level. For you to make blanket statements about his ability and future possibilities, shows a distinct lack of knowledge about the history of the game and what it takes a young pitcher to go from good prospect to solid major league starter...

Of course the question for you is which would you prefer? To be right, or to have JG turn into a good starter?

KingXerxes
08-06-2001, 02:40 PM
Can Garland blossom into a great pitcher? Possible although not probable IMHO. My guess is that he will evolve into a solid starter (ala Mike Morgan) who will hover around .500 most of his career. I may be wrong (I hope so), but I just don't see Garland with the kind of stuff you need to dominate. Martinez, Clemens, Johnson, Schilling and the like all had totally dominating stuff from day one but (especially in Johnson's case) they needed to mature. Jon Garland is not going to add two feet to the break on his curve ball, nor is he going to add 10 mph on his fastball by maturing. I do not buy Hawk Harrelson's proclaimation that Garland - right now - has the stuff to dominate - that is billowing drivel. The only great pitchers to come along in the past 50 years who didn't have a dominating out-pitch were/are Greg Maddux (freakish control and change of speeds) and Tom Seaver (four unbelievably solid pitches - he never hung anything) - and I don't think Garland is one of those. Does he suck? No, but I don't see him ever being GREAT either.

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 02:43 PM
If he added 10MPH to his fastball, he would be throwing 105 MPH... Yeah, he would probably be great then... How do you figure 95 MPH isn't enough to get it done?

KingXerxes
08-06-2001, 03:04 PM
I may be very very wrong here, but I don't think Jon Garland consistently throws at 95 mph. That's in Kerry Wood/Roger Clemens territory, and (although I usually ignore that radar gun #) I don't think he throws that hard. He has something like 35 strike-outs in about 65 innings this year, and those numbers do not underly somebody who throws that hard.

danman31
08-06-2001, 03:06 PM
Garland will be fine. We are over analyzing a 22 year old pitcher. He has shown improvement from last year and I expect him to improve from this year next year.

Paulwny
08-06-2001, 03:07 PM
Scouts bring their own radar guns to games because the stadium gun is hyped.

doublem23
08-06-2001, 03:25 PM
You people are insane. Jon Garland is only 22!!!!

And who said he hasn't done anything at the MLB level? He's been pretty good this year, even if it has been out of the bullpen, a la Mark Buehrle last season.

Coming into the season (which he started in Charlotte), Garland had a WHOPPING 89 days of MLB service. If you expect a Cy Young winner after 89 days, you will be sorely dissapointed. I know the Burly-mon only had 76, but Buehrle looks like something special. I'm not saying Garland's not special, I'm only saying that Jon will be a good MLB pitcher. Mark Buehrle, Kip Wells, and Jon Garland have made leaps and bounds from last season. These three guys will be the anchor of our rotation, but you have to give him some time.

In 5 years (barring severe injuries), this is what I hope our staff looks like:

Mark Buehrle
Jon Rauch
Jon Garland
Kip Wells
Kris Honel (I think the Sox will try and convert Wright into a closer, despite my current objection)

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 06:20 PM
lol idiots are born every day

Daver
08-06-2001, 06:29 PM
Honel wiill be better than Wright in two or three years anyway,regardless of whether he is made a closer or not.

As for Garland,he made a big step towards becoming a good MLB pitcher yesterday IMO,simply by going out there without having his best stuff and still giving the team 6 innings of fairly solid pitching.I am not saying he will be the next Pedro,but he will be a good MLB pitcher if he can keep maturing at the pace he is now.
But then again what the hell do I know.

steelsox
08-06-2001, 08:35 PM
So in other words. BMR. If you don't like Jon Garland then your not welcome in here. Maybe that should be a headliner. "If you don't like Garland, then get the he!! out."

Bmr, So far you have added nothing to the conversation but just a few smarta$$e comments. The kind that come out of an undisciplined, cocky teenager type. Shame on your parents. For the sake of the Sox I hope he is fabulous. Although, I haven't seen a thing to prove that he will be anything more than mediocre. Hawk can say what he wants, but remember who thought George Bell was a better talent than Sammy Sosa.... and who traded Harold Baines in his prime.

danman31
08-06-2001, 09:02 PM
Ok let's cut down on the disses. I hate to be like a teacher, but this is getting old fast. This site is good because of people's opinion and their love for the Sox. Let's keep it that way.

doublem23
08-06-2001, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by steelsox
but remember who thought George Bell was a better talent than Sammy Sosa

Steroids have a funny way of adding "talent" don't they?

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2001, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by steelsox
Hawk can say what he wants, but remember who thought George Bell was a better talent than Sammy Sosa.... and who traded Harold Baines in his prime.

We didn't trade a Sammy Sosa type player for Garland we traded Matt Karchner. So either way it's a win/win proposition.

Mathew
08-06-2001, 10:09 PM
Matt Karchner our old useless Knuckleball throwing closer... uhhh ya we win that one! 22yrs old is young. But I don't like having the patience to bear with young mistakes and the learning curve. It means you are bad now and I hate being bad anytime. But I think Garland is not too bad right now and that bodes well for the youngest player in the league last year. Any Cub fan like that guy remember Greg Maddux? Giving up 10 hits means pish all if they aren't home runs or hit hard. Remember you can still get hit after throwing a good pitch. I won't say Garland will be the next one, but I will say it is ridiculous to call any 3r 7in game a sign of a terrible pitcher?

doublem23
08-06-2001, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Mathew
Giving up 10 hits means pish all if they aren't home runs or hit hard. Remember you can still get hit after throwing a good pitch.

That's a real good point, Mathew.

voodoochile
08-06-2001, 10:21 PM
Giving up 10 hits means pish all if they aren't home runs or hit hard. Remember you can still get hit after throwing a good pitch.

Yes and no...

For one game or even two or three you can get away with it. But, in general if you give up hits in bunches (1.5/inning) it will eventually come back to bite you in the ass...

I am not a Garland basher. I am very impressed with the strides he seems to be making and I hope he can continue to improve his mental and physical ability and turn into a good pitcher for the Sox. I'm not conerned that he gave up that many hits yesterday, because at least he is throwing strikes. But, if he continues to give up that many hits, odds are he will struggle in the majors...

Bmr31
08-06-2001, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by steelsox
So in other words. BMR. If you don't like Jon Garland then your not welcome in here.

When did i say you arent welcome in here? Your comments were ignorant. WHen your comments are ignorant and negative, im going to respond. Get used to it.

Mathew
08-06-2001, 11:54 PM
I was called an idiot here, hasn't deterred me yet! :)

Bmr31
08-07-2001, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
I was called an idiot here, hasn't deterred me yet! :)

Matthew, who called you an idiot??

Mathew
08-07-2001, 12:08 AM
I can't remember specifically, but it was in regards to Sammy Sosa. I said something about us not regreting his loss when I said we should, (at least for Jorge Bell?) It was on the old board, I didn't mind. If they could have reasoned why Bell was better I would have admitted my wrong. It's funny we had a very similar thread not long ago on the new board. Not called an idiot this time but still have the same opinion.

Bmr31
08-07-2001, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
I was called an idiot here, hasn't deterred me yet! :)


Yeah well thats because only the idiots are offended by being called an idiot.... :)