PDA

View Full Version : Dayan Viciedo...What do we do with him?


getonbckthr
12-09-2010, 06:38 PM
Between the signings of Dunn, Konerko and the developement of Morel where do we go with Viciedo now?

Lip Man 1
12-09-2010, 06:56 PM
Good question. My guess is that he's moved as part of a larger deal for some proven relief pitchers. But if the Sox hang on to him he'd provide a good bench bat.

Lip

soltrain21
12-09-2010, 07:00 PM
Good question. My guess is that he's moved as part of a larger deal for some proven relief pitchers. But if the Sox hang on to him he'd provide a good bench bat.

Lip

I could see him being moved with Floyd to "sweeten the pot."

DirtySox
12-09-2010, 07:12 PM
Throw him in a corner OF spot in AAA. If they don't think he's capable of even that, ship his ass out via trade.

asindc
12-09-2010, 07:34 PM
Throw him in a corner OF spot in AAA. If they don't think he's capable of even that, ship his ass out via trade.

This. With his raw talent, I think we will come to regret dealing him if we do so now.

voodoochile
12-09-2010, 07:37 PM
The kid has 900+ OPS potential. If he can play LF as well as "Teh Manny" he's a keeper.

SoxNation05
12-09-2010, 07:45 PM
Let him chill in the minors.

Noneck
12-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Get what you can for him now. There is no spot on the club for him for a couple of years. Nurturing him in the minors at 1.25m per year, with the possibility that he can be a big league player someday, doesn't make sense now.

aryzner
12-09-2010, 07:58 PM
I'm with the keep him in the minors and hope he can learn to play an OF spot crowd. Too much potential to just trade away so quickly.

EMachine10
12-09-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm another who would like to have him in AAA. I'm sure he could learn a corner OF position. Also, Morel tore his labrum last season. He's not indestructible. I'm not saying he's injury prone, but just keeping in mind that he did have an injury last year that he chose to play through.

Domeshot17
12-09-2010, 08:10 PM
Trade Teahen and give him Teahen's role. Let him get 300 real abs this year, the bulk vs. LHP. I think this kid would benefit more from seeing 250-300 abs vs mlb pitching then 400 vs minor league.

SoxSpeed22
12-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Keep him in the minors for another year. I think if we give up on him too early, it will bite us in the ass. He has power, but still needs polish.

Tragg
12-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Develop him.
Good gracious don't give him away for a middle reliever.

sox1970
12-09-2010, 08:22 PM
Trade Teahen and give him Teahen's role. Let him get 300 real abs this year, the bulk vs. LHP. I think this kid would benefit more from seeing 250-300 abs vs mlb pitching then 400 vs minor league.

Who's sitting? We got nine pretty good players now. Let's play them unless they're hurt.

Maybe you sit Morel against some righties, and play Vizquel once a week, but I hope Pierre, Rios, Quentin, Ramirez, Beckham, Konerko, and Dunn are all healthy enough to play over 150 games.

Viciedo is 22 next year. It won't hurt him to start the year in AAA and then if the opportunity is there, trade him for a need during the season.

DirtySox
12-09-2010, 08:29 PM
Viciedo is 22 next year. It won't hurt him to start the year in AAA and then if the opportunity is there, trade him for a need during the season.

Yes. He has plenty to work on down there. Defense at whatever position he ends up playing, plate discipline, and hitting right handed pitching. His splits are very drastic which no one ever mentions.

LoveYourSuit
12-09-2010, 08:32 PM
The kid has 900+ OPS potential. If he can play LF as well as "Teh Manny" he's a keeper.


Agree 100%.

Make him a corner OF.

KMcMahon817
12-09-2010, 08:52 PM
Trade Teahen and give him Teahen's role. Let him get 300 real abs this year, the bulk vs. LHP. I think this kid would benefit more from seeing 250-300 abs vs mlb pitching then 400 vs minor league.

I've never really thought of this, but that's not a terrible idea. I personally think Teahen would be most useful in a utility role, but I wouldn't mind if the SOX got rid of him to give Viciedo a roster spot.

He could pinch hit for Morel some late in the game, and then put Vizquel in at 3rd base. Get some other pinch hits here and there. I do like the idea, but as I am typing this, it just probably wouldn't work..just not enough at bats.

Keep him in minors for the start of the season, guys will get banged up.

Daver
12-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Send him to Birmingham and hope that he can hit AA pitching in a huge ballpark well enough to make him tradeable.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2010, 09:11 PM
What about Dayan's contract? Shouldn't that be up soon? Or do the four years only include ML service?

PalehosePlanet
12-09-2010, 10:52 PM
What about Dayan's contract? Shouldn't that be up soon? Or do the four years only include ML service?

We have him for six years; he's arb eligible after his four year contract is up.

I'm in agreement with the put him at a corner OF spot in AAA crew. He can take over LF for Pierre in 2012, or maybe even RF if Q is dealt next winter.

Dub25
12-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Between the signings of Dunn, Konerko and the developement of Morel where do we go with Viciedo now?

Well, I thought the Sox were not happy with his glove at 3rd and 1st was a possibility. That is why signing Paulie for 3 more years makes sense. It gives Dayan 3 seasons to get ready and he would still only be 23-24 years old.

He's a pup. I would hate to give up on him unless he could be part of something that lands a proven stud.

Dub25
12-09-2010, 11:26 PM
The kid has 900+ OPS potential. If he can play LF as well as "Teh Manny" he's a keeper.

Agreed. But like I posted, maybe he could play 1B.

Dub25
12-09-2010, 11:29 PM
We have him for six years; he's arb eligible after his four year contract is up.

I'm in agreement with the put him at a corner OF spot in AAA crew. He can take over LF for Pierre in 2012, or maybe even RF if Q is dealt next winter.

Somebody correct me if i'm wrong but he is arb eligible every year but the team can just simply renew his contract during the first 3 years.

thomas35forever
12-10-2010, 12:16 AM
Keep him somehow. Otherwise, Kenny would have wasted his time landing him.

NLaloosh
12-10-2010, 01:11 AM
Develop him.
Good gracious don't give him away for a middle reliever.

Exactly. He could be a monster with the bat. If he develops quickly the Sox can move someone and make room for him. And, what happens if Paulie or Dunn goes down this year or next? They'll wish they had him.

gobears1987
12-10-2010, 03:43 AM
If you can't trade him, send him to Charlotte and hope he learns how to use his glove and take a pitch. If he can do both of those, then we have a decent ball player on our hands.

doublem23
12-10-2010, 09:15 AM
Somebody correct me if i'm wrong but he is arb eligible every year but the team can just simply renew his contract during the first 3 years.

No he has a 4-year contract that's guaranteed through 2012, but when that's done he still has to finish out his arbitration years, just like any other undrafted FA signed by the Sox.

hawkjt
12-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Keep him,and develope him in the minors as a corner outfielder to replace Juan after this year.
And of course,when the inevitable injuries pop up,or the season goes sour, then he can come up during the season for more seasoning.

moochpuppy
12-10-2010, 10:02 AM
Get what you can for him now. There is no spot on the club for him for a couple of years. Nurturing him in the minors at 1.25m per year, with the possibility that he can be a big league player someday, doesn't make sense now.

Who are we? The Yankees?

CPditka
12-10-2010, 10:08 AM
Keep him, develop him, if nothing more than having a trade chip. His value is low right now.

Best case he plays his way onto our roster at corner IF/DH/corner OF.

Thome25
12-10-2010, 11:33 AM
trade him and CQ for some bullpen help....

SephClone89
12-10-2010, 11:35 AM
trade him and CQ for some bullpen help....

Why would you trade a contributing and offensively important position player, plus the organization's top offensive prospect, for the bullpen? Let's be real here.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2010, 11:49 AM
I would assume because he can bring something back for an area the Sox need to upgrade.

Lip

Thome25
12-10-2010, 11:52 AM
Why would you trade a contributing and offensively important position player, plus the organization's top offensive prospect, for the bullpen? Let's be real here.

Because let's face it....he's not important now, has nowhere to play, and the White Sox and we as fans have a tendency to overvalue our prospects.

He's a butcher defensively and is nothing but a DH-in-waiting.

asindc
12-10-2010, 12:29 PM
Because let's face it....he's not important now, has nowhere to play, and the White Sox and we as fans have a tendency to overvalue our prospects.

He's a butcher defensively and is nothing but a DH-in-waiting.

The bolded word in your post is the pertinent term here. "Now" is not the same as "going forward," which even KW must be mindful of. I generally applaud KW's 'try to win now and we'll figure out the rest later' approach, but even I get nervous at times about the dearth of developing talent in our farm system. Just because Dayan is terrible at defense now doesn't mean it always has to be. Besides, having depth is a good thing not to be taken lightly.

CPditka
12-10-2010, 12:39 PM
Im waiting for us trading him for the next Tony Pena or Mike McDougal.


Not saying I like it, but its probable.

Nelfox02
12-10-2010, 01:04 PM
Why would you trade a contributing and offensively important position player, plus the organization's top offensive prospect, for the bullpen? Let's be real here.


we better be beyond "tapped out" if we have to move Dayan, Floyd, Quentin or any combination of them for pen help......

yeah no one is arguing we need some bolstering for the relief corps....but honestly how much would it cost to add a couple of solid arms from the plethora that is out there on the market still?

Nelfox02
12-10-2010, 01:05 PM
Im waiting for us trading him for the next Tony Pena or Mike McDougal.


Not saying I like it, but its probable.




count me as :angry: if something like that goes down

getonbckthr
12-10-2010, 01:25 PM
If we're moving Viciedo for bullpen help it better be Carlos Marmol type bullpen help...

Tragg
12-11-2010, 01:59 PM
Im waiting for us trading him for the next Tony Pena or Mike McDougal.


Not saying I like it, but its probable.
Possible, yes, especially considering Williams' recent trades.

russ99
12-11-2010, 02:11 PM
I'm still thinking in-house for the pen, with maybe one cheap FA pickup in mid-January.

It's a proven fact that other than the top guys, relievers acquired in free agency don't give much of a boost over guys called up from the minors.

Big leaguers:
---------------
Either Sale or Santos closes. If Santos, Sale goes to AAA to start. If Sale, Santos helps set up and bumps Pena down a spot.

Thornton is the 8th inning setup man for both lefty and righty hitters.

If Santos closes, Pena is the secondary setup man from the right side if not, Pena is the RH middle reliever.

Call-ups/Signings:
----------
Gregory Infante did fairly well at 2 levels last year and had a good Sept. call-up.

Ryan Braun led AAA Charlotte with 18 saves, an ERA of 2.20.

Jeff Gray was recently signed from the Cubs minor league system. He didn't have a great year with the Cubs and Iowa, but has a good track record in the A's farm system. Some of his poor play this year was attributable to an injury he suffered in the spring.

In Sacramento in 2009 for the A's AAA team, Gray had 16 saves and a 1.34 ERA. He also pitched 24 games for the A's that year with a 3.76 ERA in 26 IP, which if we can get that from our 5th reliever, would be great. He also has a low HR/9 throughout his career.

Infante, Braun, Gray and the aforementioned expected late FA signing compete for 2 spots in the pen. Maybe even Santeliz or Carter could win a spot out of Spring Training.

Lucas Harrell or whoever we grab as insurance for Peavy's injury takes the long man/spot start role.

The one missing spot is LOOGY, but we're at 6 relievers and we don't have a lefthander in the system even close to ready. Maybe Kenny can bring one in with a minor trade.

Nobody from the big league roster gets traded, and we have a good but not stellar quality pen.

PalehosePlanet
12-11-2010, 02:21 PM
Because let's face it....he's not important now, has nowhere to play, and the White Sox and we as fans have a tendency to overvalue our prospects.

He's a butcher defensively and is nothing but a DH-in-waiting.

I think the exact opposite is true. We as fans generally tend to devalue our prospects and even our MLB roster players. The grass is always greener on the other side is the motto here.

Unless Dayan brings back a cost controlled closer, there is no way you trade him. Not for middle relief anyway.

BringHomeDaBacon
12-11-2010, 03:03 PM
I agree with those that have stated that bullpen arms are a crap shoot. I'm not interested in trading any position player (Quentin) or solid position player prospect (Viciedo) for relief help. It's simply not worth it. Maybe as soon as this year, the Brandon Allen for Tony Pena trade is going to look foolish.

DonnieDarko
12-11-2010, 05:39 PM
I say that in the minors he begins to play RF. Eventually, if he's good enough, we play him there.

Taliesinrk
12-11-2010, 06:51 PM
I can't believe some of the responses here. The Sox should trade a 21-year old who has shown signs of being an absolute monster. He's come here after defecting from Cuba (how long did it take Alexei to adjust?) and, while definitely has deficiencies, could be one of the most powerful hitters in the game. Why exactly would the Sox trade him when they have his rights for several more years, and when his value is possibly the lowest it's been since he's been signed? How will the Sox ever get any prospects if they give them all away?

palehozenychicty
12-11-2010, 07:07 PM
You keep him and have him learn how to play RF. We can't keep giving up players with potentially strong skills that are cheap.

KMcMahon817
12-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I'm still thinking in-house for the pen, with maybe one cheap FA pickup in mid-January.

It's a proven fact that other than the top guys, relievers acquired in free agency don't give much of a boost over guys called up from the minors.

Big leaguers:
---------------
Either Sale or Santos closes. If Santos, Sale goes to AAA to start. If Sale, Santos helps set up and bumps Pena down a spot.

Thornton is the 8th inning setup man for both lefty and righty hitters.

If Santos closes, Pena is the secondary setup man from the right side if not, Pena is the RH middle reliever.

Call-ups/Signings:
----------
Gregory Infante did fairly well at 2 levels last year and had a good Sept. call-up.

Ryan Braun led AAA Charlotte with 18 saves, an ERA of 2.20.

Jeff Gray was recently signed from the Cubs minor league system. He didn't have a great year with the Cubs and Iowa, but has a good track record in the A's farm system. Some of his poor play this year was attributable to an injury he suffered in the spring.

In Sacramento in 2009 for the A's AAA team, Gray had 16 saves and a 1.34 ERA. He also pitched 24 games for the A's that year with a 3.76 ERA in 26 IP, which if we can get that from our 5th reliever, would be great. He also has a low HR/9 throughout his career.

Infante, Braun, Gray and the aforementioned expected late FA signing compete for 2 spots in the pen. Maybe even Santeliz or Carter could win a spot out of Spring Training.

Lucas Harrell or whoever we grab as insurance for Peavy's injury takes the long man/spot start role.

The one missing spot is LOOGY, but we're at 6 relievers and we don't have a lefthander in the system even close to ready. Maybe Kenny can bring one in with a minor trade.

Nobody from the big league roster gets traded, and we have a good but not stellar quality pen.

I like your optimism, but I really don't think this bullpen would work. Santos should NOT close. Pena should be no where near the 8th inning in a close game.

I think giving one BP spot to Infante, Gray, Carter or Braun is fine. But KW really needs to bring in two decent guys via FA. That should cost no more than 4 million. I realize that the budget has been met, but I really think KW gets creative somehow. I just can't see more than 1 of the guys mentioned above making the team out of ST.

Lip Man 1
12-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Kenny hinted today in some stories that fan feedback and ticket sales could allow him to now become a player in the free agent relief pitcher market.

Lip

KMcMahon817
12-11-2010, 10:46 PM
Kenny hinted today in some stories that fan feedback and ticket sales could allow him to now become a player in the free agent relief pitcher market.

Lip

Good.

DonnieDarko
12-11-2010, 10:48 PM
Get me some Kerry Wood, Kenny!

Boondock Saint
12-11-2010, 10:53 PM
Get me some Kerry Wood, Kenny!

Get Kenny some ten million dollars, and he'll get you some Kerry Wood.

doublem23
12-12-2010, 09:49 AM
Because let's face it....he's not important now, has nowhere to play, and the White Sox and we as fans have a tendency to overvalue our prospects.

He's a butcher defensively and is nothing but a DH-in-waiting.

Too bad that we don't play in a league with a DH

getonbckthr
12-12-2010, 11:04 AM
Too bad that we don't play in a league with a DH
We do but this guy Adam Dunn is gonna be there...:D:

Tragg
12-12-2010, 07:15 PM
That we have Dunn doesn't mean that we should give talent away for another Tony Pena. Wasting assets.

dickallen15
12-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Viciedo has been working at 3b daily with Cora this offseason. It will be interesting to see if he improves enough where he actually could be an asset playing there without having to put up Pujols numbers at the plate to offset his defense.

guillensdisciple
12-13-2010, 12:32 AM
Viciedo has been working at 3b daily with Cora this offseason. It will be interesting to see if he improves enough where he actually could be an asset playing there without having to put up Pujols numbers at the plate to offset his defense.


Don't forget that Alexei did it with Cora, and while we did not see immediate improvement, he has finally blossomed this year. I think a little bit of help from Cora and Vizquel might do wonders for the big guy.

I hope we keep him for the sake of my signature :cool:

khan
12-13-2010, 12:31 PM
I'm still thinking in-house for the pen, with maybe one cheap FA pickup in mid-January.

It's a proven fact that other than the top guys, relievers acquired in free agency don't give much of a boost over guys called up from the minors.

While I agree that there will likely have to be a smoke-and-mirrors callup from in-house, I disagree that "It's a proven fact that other than the top guys, relievers acquired in free agency don't give much of a boost."

Dotel did pretty well, as did Putz for this team; If we took the time to review other clubs' rosters, I'm sure we'd uncover more FA relievers that helped their new teams. Everyone points to the Linebrink contract, but then KW has a tendency to try to show the world how much smarter he is than all the other guys in the room. [Thinking of the Teahen extension as another exhibit of this behavior by KW, as well as the Linebrink contract.]


If in fact your closer and top RH setup man are gone from last year's team, I'm of the mind that there have to be robust solutions brought in via FA. If Thornton is "promoted" to close, that means that the more-difficult- to-solve LH setup position needs to be addressed. [Unless you want to waste Sale's future in this role or as the closer.]

I don't believe that Santos is ready for higher-leveraged situations-yet. [See his 1.5 WHIP and his 2nd half decline in effectiveness.] I also don't believe that Pena is good enough to setup, either.

Hence, I'm thinking that FA options will have to be brought in to reinforce the end of the bullpen, with extant players [Pena, Santos, possibly Infante or Harrell] as part of the lower-leverage group.

asindc
12-13-2010, 12:52 PM
While I agree that there will likely have to be a smoke-and-mirrors callup from in-house, I disagree that "It's a proven fact that other than the top guys, relievers acquired in free agency don't give much of a boost."

Dotel did pretty well, as did Putz for this team; If we took the time to review other clubs' rosters, I'm sure we'd uncover more FA relievers that helped their new teams. Everyone points to the Linebrink contract, but then KW has a tendency to try to show the world how much smarter he is than all the other guys in the room. [Thinking of the Teahen extension as another exhibit of this behavior by KW, as well as the Linebrink contract.]


If in fact your closer and top RH setup man are gone from last year's team, I'm of the mind that there have to be robust solutions brought in via FA. If Thornton is "promoted" to close, that means that the more-difficult- to-solve LH setup position needs to be addressed. [Unless you want to waste Sale's future in this role or as the closer.]

I don't believe that Santos is ready for higher-leveraged situations-yet. [See his 1.5 WHIP and his 2nd half decline in effectiveness.] I also don't believe that Pena is good enough to setup, either.

Hence, I'm thinking that FA options will have to be brought in to reinforce the end of the bullpen, with extant players [Pena, Santos, possibly Infante or Harrell] as part of the lower-leverage group.

While I agree with your general premise here, the Teahen and Linebrink contracts are different animals. Regarding KW wanting to show off, the Teahen contract might be an example of that, but KW said from the beginning of the Linebrink (and Dotel) contracts that he knew he was overpaying and was upset that the market had driven the price for them to that point. The Linebrink and Dotel signings were exhibits #1 and #2 of KW wanting to rectify his 2007 bullpen mistakes.

doublem23
12-13-2010, 12:53 PM
We do but this guy Adam Dunn is gonna be there...:D:

I have confidence that if we stick with Dayan he can find a low-level defensive position to play purely based on his athleticism for the next 4 years and be ready to be the everyday DH by the time he hits the ripe old age of 26.

khan
12-13-2010, 01:01 PM
While I agree with your general premise here, the Teahen and Linebrink contracts are different animals. Regarding KW wanting to show off, the Teahen contract might be an example of that, but KW said from the beginning of the Linebrink (and Dotel) contracts that he knew he was overpaying and was upset that the market had driven the price for them to that point. The Linebrink and Dotel signings were exhibits #1 and #2 of KW wanting to rectify his 2007 bullpen mistakes.

Sure, I can accept that. I view the Teahen contract being KW showing off moreso than Linebrink.

At the same time, I'm reading that there are quite a few acceptable options for the 'pen available in FA this offseason. If this is the case, then there should be scant worry about another Linebrink contract this offseason.

In either case, I don't like the idea of the relatively-inexperienced Santos and his 1.5 WHIP being the choice for closer or primary RH setup man. Nor do I like the idea of Thornton being the closer, either. To me, this means that KW has to go shopping in FA for these positions.

DirtySox
01-15-2011, 09:13 PM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1213190022/IMG-20101217-00034_normal.jpg
Oneyguillen (http://twitter.com/#%21/Oneyguillen) Oney Guillen
Anyone asking about dayan. I think they r converting him into outfielder
6 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/Oneyguillen/status/26459583551635456)
Yes it's Oney, but hopefully he's correct. The only other place for him would be on the trading block

EMachine10
01-16-2011, 10:02 AM
Yes it's Oney, but hopefully he's correct. The only other place for him would be on the trading block
Right. Might as well see what happens.

russ99
01-16-2011, 10:43 AM
A lot depends on Morel. If he does OK with the bat, he's got the 3B job locked in.

If he's has a hard time at the plate, all options are open including Vizquel and Viciedo.

Long term, Pierre probably won't be back in 2012, so Viciedo could end up in LF next year, akin to what the Sox did to get Carlos Lee's bat in the lineup.

The only urgency the Sox would have with Viciedo, is that they're paying him much more than any other prospect.

tick53
01-16-2011, 10:53 AM
This. With his raw talent, I think we will come to regret dealing him if we do so now.

I absolutely agree. That guy can knock walls over with his power and with the signing money the Sox paid him, they should try to utilize that power. I would have much rather seen him in there getting some at bats instead of the Manny Ramirez fiasco that we endured last season. Where did that get us??? Play these young guys for God sake. Let's see what they have..

VMSNS
01-16-2011, 12:04 PM
Yes it's Oney, but hopefully he's correct. The only other place for him would be on the trading block

LF or RF would be a good fit for him, I think. He has a good arm.

DirtySox
01-16-2011, 12:10 PM
A lot depends on Morel. If he does OK with the bat, he's got the 3B job locked in.

If he's has a hard time at the plate, all options are open including Vizquel and Viciedo.

I'm not confident at all that Dayan's offensive output would outweigh his abysmal defensive issues at 3B. I really think it's a corner OF spot or nothing with the Sox.

soltrain21
01-16-2011, 12:21 PM
A lot depends on Morel. If he does OK with the bat, he's got the 3B job locked in.

If he's has a hard time at the plate, all options are open including Vizquel and Viciedo.

Long term, Pierre probably won't be back in 2012, so Viciedo could end up in LF next year, akin to what the Sox did to get Carlos Lee's bat in the lineup.

The only urgency the Sox would have with Viciedo, is that they're paying him much more than any other prospect.

We have the offensive firepower. I'd rather not sacrifice D at third.

Hitmen77
02-21-2011, 12:36 AM
Viciedo will be working with minor league coach Daryl Boston on his skills as an outfielder:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110220&content_id=16690370&notebook_id=16690574&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0221-white-sox-bits--20110220,0,1569223.story

khan
02-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Viciedo will be working with minor league coach Daryl Boston on his skills as an outfielder:
So, in other words, Viciedo will be learning how to become an underachiever from underachievement's Patron Saint?


Great, I guess. Here's hoping that Boston is a better instructor than he was a player.

doublem23
02-21-2011, 05:34 PM
So, in other words, Viciedo will be learning how to become an underachiever from underachievement's Patron Saint?


Great, I guess. Here's hoping that Boston is a better instructor than he was a player.

When has a player's performance on the field ever been an indicator of how he'll be as a manager?

DirtySox
02-21-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm pleased he supposedly lost weight. I will be elated if he is serviceable in a corner and takes a few more walks. He's one of the only interesting prospects to watch this spring training.

Brian26
02-21-2011, 06:01 PM
So, in other words, Viciedo will be learning how to become an underachiever from underachievement's Patron Saint?

No, he said Boston will be working with Viciedo on his skills as an outfielder. Boston was a very good defensive player. He underachieved with his bat.

Great, I guess. Here's hoping that Boston is a better instructor than he was a player.That goes unsaid with most coaches, doesn't it?

khan
02-21-2011, 06:45 PM
When has a player's performance on the field ever been an indicator of how he'll be as a manager?

Fair point. But, Boston won't be a manager, he'll be tasked with teaching Viciedo the finer points of being an OFer.

To me, Boston's underachieving as a player is MORE alarming than if he were a manager. A minor league instructor has to actually TEACH an individual kid how to play, not manage a group to achieve an end result. [IMO, these aren't entirely the same skillset.]

There's also the issue of Boston having been an instructor in one of the crappiest farm systems in terms of it's ability to teach.


All things being equal, since Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor, I won't look for Viciedo to end up with a high baseball IQ.

khan
02-21-2011, 06:49 PM
No, he said Boston will be working with Viciedo on his skills as an outfielder. Boston was a very good defensive player. He underachieved with his bat.
I just remember Boston always disappointing me as a kid. He'd be pumped up in the newspapers as this massive talent who was destined for the All Star game, but then he'd always underwhelm us every year.

That goes unsaid with most coaches, doesn't it?
Indeed. That said, if he had a good track record as a coach, or if this farm system had a better track record as a whole, I'd feel a lot better about this arrangement.

I guess I wouldn't mind a "Hoffa"-style purging of each and every "instructor" in the system, unless we have evidence that points toward their competency.

MARTINMVP
02-21-2011, 07:03 PM
I'm not comfortable with dealing away Viciedo. I agree with an earlier comment that you let him develop and get a better idea of what he can turn into, especially if he shows promise as an outfielder.

If anything, maybe after a few months or a year, you include him in a trade where his value would be a higher than it is now.

You also never know when you might need him in the event of an injury, or if CQ continues to suck it up and Ozzie has enough.

KMcMahon817
02-21-2011, 07:20 PM
Viciedo was signed to a 4 year $10 million deal. This is now the third year of that contract. He will then be arbitration eligible following the 2012 season, correct? Pretty sure that's the case, but just wanted some clarification as I know there are some nuances with international signings.

doublem23
02-21-2011, 07:20 PM
Fair point. But, Boston won't be a manager, he'll be tasked with teaching Viciedo the finer points of being an OFer.

To me, Boston's underachieving as a player is MORE alarming than if he were a manager. A minor league instructor has to actually TEACH an individual kid how to play, not manage a group to achieve an end result. [IMO, these aren't entirely the same skillset.]

There's also the issue of Boston having been an instructor in one of the crappiest farm systems in terms of it's ability to teach.


All things being equal, since Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor, I won't look for Viciedo to end up with a high baseball IQ.

Whatever, man, Ted Williams is widely regarded as the greatest hitter in baseball history and he is also widely regarded as one of the least effective hitting instructors, as well, so there is basically no proven correlation between playing ability and coaching ability. And of course, the flip to this is Dave Duncan, arguably the best pitching coach in baseball right now, wasn't even a pitcher in his playing days.

russ99
02-21-2011, 08:00 PM
Viciedo was signed to a 4 year $10 million deal. This is now the third year of that contract. He will then be arbitration eligible following the 2012 season, correct? Pretty sure that's the case, but just wanted some clarification as I know there are some nuances with international signings.

Viciedo's contract is a bit strange, akin to Ramirez's

As per Cot's:


09:$1M, 10:$1.25M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.5M
if Viciedo has enough service time to qualify for arbitration after 2011, he may void 2012 season (if voided, club may exercise option at $3.5M)

Since there's no way he can reach service time this year (Super 2 status usually hits after 2 years and 120+ days, i.e. the void/option can't push him to early FA) we have him signed until 2012, and then his arb years begin, the number of which depend on his service time after 2012.

Granted, if he's starting arb after 2012 at $2.5M his salary could jump quickly if he can perform up to expectations.

Also, Viceido changed agents from Jaime Torres to Boras. :(:

Dibbs
02-21-2011, 08:57 PM
According to Ozzie, he'd be a perfect DH in the AL if he could only field.

RowanDye
02-21-2011, 09:27 PM
So, in other words, Viciedo will be learning how to become an underachiever from underachievement's Patron Saint?


Great, I guess. Here's hoping that Boston is a better instructor than he was a player.

I'm aggregating all of your posts from this thread and printing them off as a daily reminder that things can always get more miserable. Stay classy :nuts:

Daver
02-21-2011, 10:00 PM
Fair point. But, Boston won't be a manager, he'll be tasked with teaching Viciedo the finer points of being an OFer.

To me, Boston's underachieving as a player is MORE alarming than if he were a manager. A minor league instructor has to actually TEACH an individual kid how to play, not manage a group to achieve an end result. [IMO, these aren't entirely the same skillset.]

There's also the issue of Boston having been an instructor in one of the crappiest farm systems in terms of it's ability to teach.


All things being equal, since Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor, I won't look for Viciedo to end up with a high baseball IQ.

You literally crack me up.

You have zero knowledge of who is on staff on the minor league level, and who the actual roving instructors ( not coaches ) are, and yet you can climb on your high horse and make sweeping statements condemning their ability to to do their jobs.

Crap like this is why I have the same respect for the orts from last nights dinner that I do for anything you post, at least with the orts there is something quantifiable, unlike your opinions that have a basis only in your own reality.

By any chance, do you wear clown shoes on a regular basis just because you think you should?

khan
02-22-2011, 12:27 PM
You literally crack me up.
Thank you.

Tip your waitresses. Try the veal. I'll be here all week!

You have zero knowledge of who is on staff on the minor league level, and who the actual roving instructors ( not coaches ) are, and yet you can climb on your high horse and make sweeping statements condemning their ability to to do their jobs.
OK, exactly who can you point to as an example of a player that has been well-schooled in the White Sox farm system?

What OFers have come up in recent years, and can point to the genius of Daryl Boston as the reason for them becoming solid MLB regulars? [I honestly can't think of any.]


Granted, much of the problem is likely in the scouting, even BEFORE one speaks to the development of the player in this system. But unlike our friends in the twin cities, we don't hear of other organizations pointing to the White Sox as being a model of teaching the youth how to play the right way.

khan
02-22-2011, 12:34 PM
Whatever, man, Ted Williams is widely regarded as the greatest hitter in baseball history and he is also widely regarded as one of the least effective hitting instructors, as well, so there is basically no proven correlation between playing ability and coaching ability. And of course, the flip to this is Dave Duncan, arguably the best pitching coach in baseball right now, wasn't even a pitcher in his playing days.

Oh, I agree with all of this.

My overarching view is that I'd be more confident in Boston's "coaching" ability if we'd seen any previous examples of him doing well in this role.

Granted, past performance is no guarantee of future results. But there is a dearth of examples of kids who learned the finer points from this farm system, and then went on to be solid MLB regulars. [Chris Young, perhaps? Who else?]

And we also aren't hearing how other organizations want to emulate the White Sox's farm system as a means to teach THEIR youngsters. After all, imitation is best form of flattery, in business, in sport, and in life.

So, as I posted earlier, here's hoping that Boston can teach Viciedo well, or at least better than Boston was as a player.

Nellie_Fox
02-22-2011, 12:38 PM
So, as I posted earlier, here's hoping that Boston can teach Viciedo well, or at least better than Boston was as a player.
He's supposed to be working on Viciedo's defense. Boston was a very good defensive outfielder. There's no way he can make Viciedo BETTER than he was. If he can make him anywhere near as good, it will be a small miracle.

KMcMahon817
02-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Viciedo's contract is a bit strange, akin to Ramirez's

As per Cot's:


09:$1M, 10:$1.25M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.5M
if Viciedo has enough service time to qualify for arbitration after 2011, he may void 2012 season (if voided, club may exercise option at $3.5M)
Since there's no way he can reach service time this year (Super 2 status usually hits after 2 years and 120+ days, i.e. the void/option can't push him to early FA) we have him signed until 2012, and then his arb years begin, the number of which depend on his service time after 2012.

Granted, if he's starting arb after 2012 at $2.5M his salary could jump quickly if he can perform up to expectations.

Also, Viceido changed agents from Jaime Torres to Boras. :(:

Thank you, Russ.

Daver
02-22-2011, 08:39 PM
Thank you.

Tip your waitresses. Try the veal. I'll be here all week!


OK, exactly who can you point to as an example of a player that has been well-schooled in the White Sox farm system?

What OFers have come up in recent years, and can point to the genius of Daryl Boston as the reason for them becoming solid MLB regulars? [I honestly can't think of any.]


Granted, much of the problem is likely in the scouting, even BEFORE one speaks to the development of the player in this system. But unlike our friends in the twin cities, we don't hear of other organizations pointing to the White Sox as being a model of teaching the youth how to play the right way.

Seriously?

You don't even know what the purpose of an instructor is?

And yet you feel you are qualified to comment on the quality of what they do?

You don't even have the simple understanding of what goes on below the big league level, but you sure are quick to point out what you, wrongly, think the problem is, and make comparisons based on another team that I have to believe you have no better knowledge of.

I always thought you to be somewhat intelligent, but I'll just chuckle and move along now.

TheVulture
02-22-2011, 08:48 PM
To me, Boston's underachieving as a player is MORE alarming than if he were a manager. A minor league instructor has to actually TEACH an individual kid how to play, not manage a group to achieve an end result.


All things being equal, since Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor, I won't look for Viciedo to end up with a high baseball IQ.

You should let KW know about this, because he should probably get rid of Don Cooper and his 5.27 career ERA, too. No way could he succeed as a pitching instructor with those kind of numbers.

khan
02-23-2011, 01:41 PM
You don't even know what the purpose of an instructor is?
My understanding is that they are in place to teach various aspects of the game. In Boston's case, I'd imagine that he's in place to teach OFers how to play a good defensive OF.

Given that we have very few examples of this occurring in this system, we can point to the poor outcomes as evidence of his sucktitude as an instructor.

And yet you feel you are qualified to comment on the quality of what they do?
Whether you feel I'm qualified or not, the outcomes have not been good. Do you disagree?

And as an aside, we as fans are always welcome to our opinions. You may disagree with mine, and that's OK. [It still doesn't change the outcomes of the exercise of the farm system.]

You don't even have the simple understanding of what goes on below the big league level, but you sure are quick to point out what you, wrongly, think the problem is, and make comparisons based on another team that I have to believe you have no better knowledge of.
Again, in any endeavor in sport or in life, the outcome matters as a metric for the process. [THINK: Did Johnny learn how to spell multi-syllabic words in his spelling class? Did Suzy learn how to do a triple axel in figure skating? Did Dayan learn how to use his throwing arm to maximum effect in the OF?]

As the outcomes [i.e. producing well-schooled, knowledgable players that make the most of their abilities] have been less than stellar up to this point, I'd state that Boston and others appear to have been ineffective.

I always thought you to be somewhat intelligent, but I'll just chuckle and move along now.
Thank you for your compliments.

khan
02-23-2011, 01:45 PM
You should let KW know about this, because he should probably get rid of Don Cooper and his 5.27 career ERA, too. No way could he succeed as a pitching instructor with those kind of numbers.
Here's a key difference between Cooper and Boston:

While I'm not strictly a "Coop'll fix 'em" type of guy, we CAN point to players that have been helped by their having worked with Cooper. [Thornton, Jenks, Floyd, etc...]

Who can we point to among OFers that potentially benefitted from their interaction with Boston? Where are the successes that Boston can claim in his decade in the farm system?

Again, I'd state that we as a fandom should feel better about Boston's processes as a coach if his outcomes had been better.

doublem23
02-23-2011, 01:59 PM
Here's a key difference between Cooper and Boston:

While I'm not strictly a "Coop'll fix 'em" type of guy, we CAN point to players that have been helped by their having worked with Cooper. [Thornton, Jenks, Floyd, etc...]

Who can we point to among OFers that potentially benefitted from their interaction with Boston? Where are the successes that Boston can claim in his decade in the farm system?

Again, I'd state that we as a fandom should feel better about Boston's processes as a coach if his outcomes had been better.

The flip to that is please find me the kind of players like Dayan that have failed under Boston's tutelage. Are you aware of any work history Daryl Boston has had with players similar to Dayan (young, raw, athletic) who he has had a negative effect on?

Look, just can't you just admit that your analysis of Boston's coaching abilities are skewed by your desire to just be pessimistic for the sake of being pessimistic. How do you know what kind of OF coach Daryl Boston is? How do you know what kind of coaching philosophy Dayan Viciedo best responds to? If Viciedo ultimately fails as an OF then we can look back and review the choice to have Boston teach him the position, but right now there doesn't seem to be any concrete evidence one way or the other to form any sort of strong opinion over this decision.

khan
02-23-2011, 02:05 PM
The flip to that is please find me the kind of players like Dayan that have failed under Boston's tutelage. Are you aware of any work history Daryl Boston has had with players similar to Dayan (young, raw, athletic) who he has had a negative effect on?
I don't know, did he help Joe Borchard, for example?

Look, just can't you just admit that your analysis of Boston's coaching abilities are skewed by your desire to just be pessimistic for the sake of being pessimistic. How do you know what kind of OF coach Daryl Boston is? How do you know what kind of coaching philosophy Dayan Viciedo best responds to? If Viciedo ultimately fails as an OF then we can look back and review the choice to have Boston teach him the position, but right now there doesn't seem to be any concrete evidence one way or the other to form any sort of strong opinion over this decision.
Incorrect.

I'm pointing out that Daryl Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor. I have stated that part of a lack of success in the farm system may have been a lack of scouting, drafting, and signing successes. But there are still few-to-no successes among OF prospects during Daryl Boston's tenure.

I state "probably sucks" as an instructor, because we have little-to-no evidence of his competency as an instructor. If there were a few OFers that benefitted from being in the White Sox system, then we as a fandom could be more confident in the outcomes with Viciedo.


You ARE correct in that none of us absolutely know whether or not Viciedo will respond to Boston's coaching. [Which is why I stated he "probably sucks."] Again, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

However, past performance in many aspects of human endeavor can yield clues as to the possibility of future success. We'll have to see, yes?

WhiteSox5187
02-23-2011, 02:05 PM
Whatever, man, Ted Williams is widely regarded as the greatest hitter in baseball history and he is also widely regarded as one of the least effective hitting instructors, as well, so there is basically no proven correlation between playing ability and coaching ability. And of course, the flip to this is Dave Duncan, arguably the best pitching coach in baseball right now, wasn't even a pitcher in his playing days.

Actually I think Ted Williams was held in high regard as a hitting coach, he was not viewed as favorably as a manager.

doublem23
02-23-2011, 02:13 PM
I don't know, did he help Joe Borchard, for example?

Incorrect.

I'm pointing out that Daryl Boston sucked as a player, and probably sucks as an instructor. I have stated that part of a lack of success in the farm system may have been a lack of scouting, drafting, and signing successes. But there are still few-to-no successes among OF prospects during Daryl Boston's tenure.

I state "probably sucks" as an instructor, because we have little-to-no evidence of his competency as an instructor. If there were a few OFers that benefitted from being in the White Sox system, then we as a fandom could be more confident in the outcomes with Viciedo.

You ARE correct in that none of us absolutely know whether or not Viciedo will respond to Boston's coaching. [Which is why I stated he "probably sucks."] Again, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

However, past performance in many aspects of human endeavor can yield clues as to the possibility of future success. We'll have to see, yes?

Did Boston work with Borchard? I have no idea, nor do I remember much of Borchard's limited time in the Majors, but he didn't stick because of his defense, he didn't stick because he couldn't hit a beach ball with a telephone pole.

Marqhead
02-23-2011, 02:16 PM
he didn't stick because he couldn't hit a beach ball with a telephone pole.

Where would one go to watch this "beach-tele-ball"?

doublem23
02-23-2011, 02:19 PM
Where would one go to watch this "beach-tele-ball"?

http://www.blogcdn.com/hd.engadget.com/media/2008/06/espn8-sm.jpg

Moses_Scurry
02-23-2011, 02:36 PM
If your looking strictly at outfield defense, it seems to me like the prospects coming up have been fine. Rowand and Brian Anderson are two examples. Rowand was adequate if overrated and Anderson was really good. Almost all of the outfield prospect "busts" that I can think of didn't make it because they couldn't hit. Jerry Owens and Borchard come to mind. Same for Anderson. I don't remember hearing the knock on any of these guys being bad defense.

Also, the list of OF prospects that the Sox have successfully developed in general isn't very impressive. Rowand is the only one, and even he is not a perennial all-star. You can't say the Boston sucks as an instructor if he isn't given anything to work with.

Almost all of the Sox big league outfielders in the Daryl Boston era have come from other teams.

Nellie_Fox
02-23-2011, 03:04 PM
http://www.blogcdn.com/hd.engadget.com/media/2008/06/espn8-sm.jpg:rolling:

voodoochile
02-23-2011, 03:42 PM
Did Boston work with Borchard? I have no idea, nor do I remember much of Borchard's limited time in the Majors, but he didn't stick because of his defense, he didn't stick because he couldn't hit a beach ball with a telephone pole.

It's interesting that the sole OF prospect who Khan listed as being possibly successful is Young who is also the only guy in the group who has been able to hit.

I would imagine most of Boston's time is spent working on defensive aspects of the game and actually from that perspective you can point to at least a few successes from the minor league system. One of them actually was incredibly successful defensively in the majors but couldn't hit for **** and to this day is still beloved by many fans for his incredible defensive prowess. In case you haven't figure out who I'm referring to, it's the OF turned pitching prospect Brian Anderson. There's also a guy playing well for the A's named Sweeney and then there's Jeremy Reed who actually stuck around as a defensive replacement with the M's for a few years and may even still be with them. There was also a guy who was going to be the next big thing whose name completely escapes me but he got injured one year and never made the bigs for any length of time but he was considered a major 5 tool talent (Brian?). Then there was Julio Ramirez and Jerry Owens (who never played organized baseball until he signed with the Sox and turned into a real solid defensive CF) and currently there's the younger Danks and of course there's the guy who stole the job from the aforementioned greatest defender in the history of Sox baseball Dwayne Wise.

All of these players are, were or at one point have been touted for their defensive abilities and if they failed to play in the majors it's been because they can't hit for ****.

So there's at least a partial list to rebut the idea that Boston can't help players learn to play defensive OF.

voodoochile
02-23-2011, 03:45 PM
If your looking strictly at outfield defense, it seems to me like the prospects coming up have been fine. Rowand and Brian Anderson are two examples. Rowand was adequate if overrated and Anderson was really good. Almost all of the outfield prospect "busts" that I can think of didn't make it because they couldn't hit. Jerry Owens and Borchard come to mind. Same for Anderson. I don't remember hearing the knock on any of these guys being bad defense.

Also, the list of OF prospects that the Sox have successfully developed in general isn't very impressive. Rowand is the only one, and even he is not a perennial all-star. You can't say the Boston sucks as an instructor if he isn't given anything to work with.

Almost all of the Sox big league outfielders in the Daryl Boston era have come from other teams.

Wow I got here after you and completely crapped the bed on Rowand. What an incredible example of an average corner OF who became a solid CF under Boston's supervision.

Daver
02-23-2011, 09:34 PM
My understanding is that they are in place to teach various aspects of the game. In Boston's case, I'd imagine that he's in place to teach OFers how to play a good defensive OF.

Given that we have very few examples of this occurring in this system, we can point to the poor outcomes as evidence of his sucktitude as an instructor.


Whether you feel I'm qualified or not, the outcomes have not been good. Do you disagree?

And as an aside, we as fans are always welcome to our opinions. You may disagree with mine, and that's OK. [It still doesn't change the outcomes of the exercise of the farm system.]


Again, in any endeavor in sport or in life, the outcome matters as a metric for the process. [THINK: Did Johnny learn how to spell multi-syllabic words in his spelling class? Did Suzy learn how to do a triple axel in figure skating? Did Dayan learn how to use his throwing arm to maximum effect in the OF?]

As the outcomes [i.e. producing well-schooled, knowledgable players that make the most of their abilities] have been less than stellar up to this point, I'd state that Boston and others appear to have been ineffective.


Thank you for your compliments.

You have to be quite obtuse to debate a subject that you have no knowledge of, and the only thing that would compound that would be to try and rationalize your ignorance by introducing sweeping parameters that call for consideration of the whole as opposed to the sum of it's parts.

This is why I avoid debating idiots, they merely drag you down to their level and then pummel you from experience.

Zisk77
02-23-2011, 11:09 PM
It's interesting that the sole OF prospect who Khan listed as being possibly successful is Young who is also the only guy in the group who has been able to hit.

I would imagine most of Boston's time is spent working on defensive aspects of the game and actually from that perspective you can point to at least a few successes from the minor league system. One of them actually was incredibly successful defensively in the majors but couldn't hit for **** and to this day is still beloved by many fans for his incredible defensive prowess. In case you haven't figure out who I'm referring to, it's the OF turned pitching prospect Brian Anderson. There's also a guy playing well for the A's named Sweeney and then there's Jeremy Reed who actually stuck around as a defensive replacement with the M's for a few years and may even still be with them. There was also a guy who was going to be the next big thing whose name completely escapes me but he got injured one year and never made the bigs for any length of time but he was considered a major 5 tool talent (Brian?). Then there was Julio Ramirez and Jerry Owens (who never played organized baseball until he signed with the Sox and turned into a real solid defensive CF) and currently there's the younger Danks and of course there's the guy who stole the job from the aforementioned greatest defender in the history of Sox baseball Dwayne Wise.

All of these players are, were or at one point have been touted for their defensive abilities and if they failed to play in the majors it's been because they can't hit for ****.

So there's at least a partial list to rebut the idea that Boston can't help players learn to play defensive OF.




Actually, I believe he his back with our organization if I remember correctly.

Brian26
02-23-2011, 11:14 PM
There's also a guy playing well for the A's named Sweeney

Yeah, he sucks defensively.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=4814769

russ99
02-23-2011, 11:27 PM
Actually, I believe he his back with our organization if I remember correctly.

As a minor league FA, Reed signed with the Brewers in the offseason

doublem23
02-24-2011, 07:22 AM
Actually, I believe he his back with our organization if I remember correctly.

He spent most of last year in Charlotte, I believe, but was released after the season.

TheVulture
02-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Lillibridge is a good example. Never played an inning of OF before reaching the Sox organization. Now plays a solid major league CF.

DirtySox
02-25-2011, 11:09 PM
Lillibridge is a good example. Never played an inning of OF before reaching the Sox organization. Now plays a solid major league CF.

Brent played CF in college.