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View Full Version : Rios to bat clean up ( if Konerko is signed)


Rockabilly
12-06-2010, 02:15 PM
Ozzie said today that he wants Dunn to bat in the 1st inn as well as to bat Rios inbetween Dunn and PK.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2010, 02:17 PM
Ozzie said today that he wants Dunn to bat in the 1st inn as well as to bat Rios inbetween Dunn and PK.

Ehhh. I doubt that works over the course of the season. I like it speed-wise, but I don't think that's the best way to format our line-up.

Lillian
12-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Ozzie said today that he wants Dunn to bat in the 1st inn as well as to bat Rios inbetween Dunn and PK.

That makes no sense to me, whatsoever.
You want someone on base when Dunn comes to bat.
If Rios bats anywhere in the top 5 spots in the order, clean up should be the least likely option.
Dunn's left handed bat should separate the two right handed bats in the 3rd and 5th spot.

soltrain21
12-06-2010, 02:21 PM
Dunn leads off, rios bats 7th. Paulie 9th.

Based on the statement you posted by Ozzie

JermaineDye05
12-06-2010, 02:22 PM
If Konerko signs, Ozzie is thinking about batting Dunn 3rd, Konerko 4th, and Rios 5th. 4 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/11861998560092160) via txt (http://twitter.com/devices)
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1170850498/DSCN1905_bigger.JPG (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien)
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien)

That's the exact opposite of how the lineup should be.

Rios should bat third.

hoosiersoxfan
12-06-2010, 02:22 PM
Fine with me if either Alexie or Beckham can put together consistent seasons in the two hole and Juan can wreak havoc on the base paths again

Rockabilly
12-06-2010, 02:24 PM
https://twitter.com/InsideTheSox

Lillian
12-06-2010, 02:27 PM
I can't believe that Ozzie seriously believes that.
The whole idea is to have a left handed bat to break up all of the right handed hitters. If Dunn bats third, he would be following Pierre and Vizquel, or Ramirez.
You would then have all of the rest of the right handed hitters batting consecutively.

Jpgr91
12-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Didn't he do something like this with Rowand after the 04 season? I remember him being asked a few times at Sox fest during a seminar, he eventually got all ticked off and said in a very angry voice "You know what, I make the damn line up". IIRC, he reversed course on Rowand. I hope he does the same with Dunn.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2010, 02:29 PM
I can't believe that Ozzie seriously believes that.
The whole idea is to have a left handed bat to break up all of the right handed hitters. If Dunn bats third, he would be following Pierre and Vizquel, or Ramirez.
You would then have all of the rest of the right handed hitters batting consecutively.

Yeh. It really doesn't make sense. His comment was probably taken out of context. Not only does the LH/RH not make sense, batting Rios 4th would just be silly.

DumpJerry
12-06-2010, 02:31 PM
https://twitter.com/InsideTheSox
So, Dunn wants to know if anyone has hit the Miller Lite sign yet.:smile:

spawn
12-06-2010, 02:35 PM
So, Dunn wants to know if anyone has hit the Miller Lite sign yet.:smile:

He also wishes he was Jayson Werth's agent...or his wife. :redneck

TDog
12-06-2010, 02:46 PM
I can't believe that Ozzie seriously believes that.
The whole idea is to have a left handed bat to break up all of the right handed hitters. If Dunn bats third, he would be following Pierre and Vizquel, or Ramirez.
You would then have all of the rest of the right handed hitters batting consecutively.

Guillen played for managers who batted Thomas third, and Thomas hit an astounding number of first-inning home runs. I can understand how Guilen might believe that.

But right now, everything is an abstraction, not unlike planning to hit Swisher lead off (not grasping the dynamics of Swisher's impressive on-base percentage). Furthermore, it's hypothetical, considering Konerko hasn't signed.

Swisher didn't end up leading off the entire season. Even if Dunn hits third in April, he won't necessarily settle in there.

Rockabilly
12-06-2010, 02:47 PM
My ideal lineup would be

1 Pierre LF
2 Alexei SS
3 Dunn DH
4 Konerko 1B
5 Quentin RF
6 AJ C
7 Rios CF
8 Beckham 2B
9 Vizquel 3B

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2010, 02:53 PM
My ideal lineup would be

1 Pierre LF
2 Alexei SS
3 Dunn DH
4 Konerko 1B
5 Quentin RF
6 AJ C
7 Rios CF
8 Beckham 2B
9 Vizquel 3BI don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.

sox1970
12-06-2010, 02:55 PM
I don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.

Agreed. Rios should bat 3rd. Dunn 4th. Konerko 5th.

And I don't want Alexei batting 2nd in April, because he sucks in April. Hopefully Beckham gets another shot, and makes the most of it.

DumpJerry
12-06-2010, 02:56 PM
He also wishes he was Jayson Werth's agent...or his wife. :redneck
That was Ozzie's life goal, not Dunn's.

Rockabilly
12-06-2010, 03:01 PM
I don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.

I would like to see the Sox score several runs in the 1st inning thats why I put Dunn hitting 3rd. With the strong rotation it will hold many of those leads

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2010, 03:05 PM
This is it:

Pierre LF
Beckham 2B
Rios CF
Dunn DH
PK 1B
TCQ RF
AJ C
Alexei SS
Morel 3B

I can flip flop Beckham and Alexei, but I'm counting on Beckham to come back big this season and I like the thought of some punch at the bottom of the order with Alexei.

doublem23
12-06-2010, 03:06 PM
This is it:

Pierre LF
Beckham 2B
Rios CF
Dunn DH
PK 1B
TCQ RF
AJ C
Alexei SS
Morel 3B

I can flip flop Beckham and Alexei, but I'm counting on Beckham to come back big this season and I like the thought of some punch at the bottom of the order with Alexei.

If Beckham gets his head screwed on straight, that's the ideal line, IMO.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2010, 03:08 PM
If Beckham gets his head screwed on straight, that's the ideal line, IMO.

That has the potential to be quite a potent lineup. Why can't it be April?

Rockabilly
12-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Ozzie will be on the MLB Network in a few mins

russ99
12-06-2010, 03:19 PM
I don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.

Did you look at Dunn's career on-base percentage? He'll probably be leading our team. He's like a younger Thome who was just fine as our #3 hitter.

I'd prefer Rios after Quentin, since Rios is a better overall hitter while Carlos is a better RBI guy.

So:

1) Pierre
2) Beckham/Ramirez/Vizquel (twice a week)
3) Dunn
4) Konerko
5) Quentin
6) Rios
7) A.J.
8) Ramirez/Beckham
9) Morel/Ramirez

Moses_Scurry
12-06-2010, 03:21 PM
This is it:

Pierre LF
Beckham 2B
Rios CF
Dunn DH
PK 1B
TCQ RF
AJ C
Alexei SS
Morel 3B

I can flip flop Beckham and Alexei, but I'm counting on Beckham to come back big this season and I like the thought of some punch at the bottom of the order with Alexei.

This would be my lineup as well. If Beckham struggles early, switch him with Alexei.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2010, 03:22 PM
Did you look at Dunn's career on-base percentage? He'll probably be leading our team. He's like a younger Thome who was just fine as our #3 hitter. I still disagree. The job of a #3 isn't drawing walks. It's driving the ball with consistency. I didn't particularly care for Thome as a 3.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2010, 03:37 PM
My ideal lineup would be

1 Pierre LF
2 Alexei SS
3 Dunn DH
4 Konerko 1B
5 Quentin RF
6 AJ C
7 Rios CF
8 Beckham 2B
9 Vizquel 3B

I think Alexei is too impatient to be a good number two hitter, I would give Beckham a chance to be the number two hitter and if he struggles again, then I'd juggle the order. I'd also have Rios as a number three because he has good pop and enough speed to where if he gets on with two outs he could be enough of a speed threat to have either Paulie or Dunn get a lot of fastballs. But that's just me. The lineup will change a lot between now and the start of the season and will probably change more as the season progresses.

DickAllen72
12-06-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.
I've always seen it the same way. You want your big HR slugger batting cleanup but you want your high average high OBP guy who also has some power batting third. I like the three hole hitter to be able to run the bases well too.

The 2008 version of Carlos Quentin would be your ideal number three hole hitter with Dunn cleanup and Paulie fifth. Or you could switch Paulie fourth and Dunnfifth and that would work too.

BringHomeDaBacon
12-06-2010, 05:08 PM
As long as Vizquel hits no higher than ninth at any point in the season I'll be okay with the lineup.

lukeman89
12-06-2010, 05:54 PM
1 Pierre LF
2 Bacon 2B
3 Paulie 1B
4 Teahen DH
5 Rios CF
6 AJ C
7 Quentin RF
8 Ramirez SS
9 Vizquel 3B

Dunn = supersub

soxinem1
12-06-2010, 06:30 PM
Ehhh. I doubt that works over the course of the season. I like it speed-wise, but I don't think that's the best way to format our line-up.

Rios did about as well at #3 as could have been expected, but I doubt if cleanup works.

That being said, I never thought Magglio would be a suitable cleanup hitter, and he was one of the best in team history.

Even so, 25-30 SB and 90 RBI from your cleanup hitter is nice.

asindc
12-06-2010, 06:41 PM
Rios did about as well at #3 as could have been expected, but I doubt if cleanup works.

That being said, I never thought Magglio would be a suitable cleanup hitter, and he was one of the best in team history.

Even so, 25-30 SB and 90 RBI from your cleanup hitter is nice.

I'd rather have his speed, SBs, and better contact as a hitter at #3 than #4, especially since (if Konerko signs) there will be three guys on the team who are better suited to bat cleanup.

Frater Perdurabo
12-06-2010, 08:28 PM
This is asinine. Assuming Paulie re-signs, I want:

Pierre
Alexei
Rios (speed will give Dunn more fastballs)
Dunn (high OBP for Paulie to have RBI chances)
Paulie (2010 numbers proved he doesn't need Dunn's protection)
Quentin (good average with RISP)
AJ
Beckham
Morel

Lyle Mouton
12-06-2010, 08:38 PM
This is asinine. Assuming Paulie re-signs, I want:

Pierre
Alexei
Rios (speed will give Dunn more fastballs)
Dunn (high OBP for Paulie to have RBI chances)
Paulie (2010 numbers proved he doesn't need Dunn's protection)
Quentin (good average with RISP)
AJ
Beckham
Morel
Not satisfied with Rios up that high, only because he was pretty blah last season outside of May.

DonnieDarko
12-06-2010, 09:09 PM
Not satisfied with Rios up that high, only because he was pretty blah last season outside of May.

lolwut? Maybe you're thinking of September and October, where he was admittedly not very good. Looking at his splits, those were his only bad months of the year.

TheVulture
12-06-2010, 10:29 PM
I don't think you have a career .250 hitter batting third, but that's just me. I've always seen that spot as being for your best pure hitter who has some pop, not your best power guy.

I don't know - it makes sense to me. If you're going to have a low average batter who walks a ton in the middle of the lineup, have the high average guys(relatively speaking of course) bat behind him to drive in all the runners LOB. Dunn is going to walk or strikeout close to 40% of the time. You need some guys who can hit behind him because if you have a runner on 2b odds are he's still going to be there after Dunn has batted. There's a fairly good chance Dunn will be on 1st, too, so having your best two hitters backing him up in the lineup seems like a good idea to me.

Plus you don't need speed in front of Dunn and Konerko. You need it for the bottom of the lineup where you probably will need to scrap for the runs a little more. Rios at the 5 spot would be perfect because he would be cleaning up the top of the lineup and setting up the lower half.

mcsoxfan
12-07-2010, 12:21 AM
I can't believe that Ozzie seriously believes that.
The whole idea is to have a left handed bat to break up all of the right handed hitters. If Dunn bats third, he would be following Pierre and Vizquel, or Ramirez.
You would then have all of the rest of the right handed hitters batting consecutively.

The signing of Dunn was a de facto rejection of Ozzieball. So, leave it to Ozzie to try to circumvent the clearest path to success. Any idiot knows you sandwich Dunn between Rios and Konerko, but alas Ozzie is not your typical idiot.

doublem23
12-07-2010, 12:24 AM
The signing of Dunn was a de facto rejection of Ozzieball. So, leave it to Ozzie to try to circumvent the clearest path to success. Any idiot knows you sandwich Dunn between Rios and Konerko, but alas Ozzie is not your typical idiot.

Yes, but what I'm dying to know is how does this move make Jerry Reinsdorf cheap???

mcsoxfan
12-07-2010, 12:29 AM
Guillen played for managers who batted Thomas third, and Thomas hit an astounding number of first-inning home runs. I can understand how Guilen might believe that.

But right now, everything is an abstraction, not unlike planning to hit Swisher lead off (not grasping the dynamics of Swisher's impressive on-base percentage). Furthermore, it's hypothetical, considering Konerko hasn't signed.

Swisher didn't end up leading off the entire season. Even if Dunn hits third in April, he won't necessarily settle in there.

Dunn is not Frank in any way shape or form.
There are only 3 other MLB in history to put up the total offensive numbers as Frank. He was born to bat third.

SOXSINCE'70
12-07-2010, 08:19 AM
If Konerko signs, Ozzie is thinking about batting Dunn 3rd, Konerko 4th, and Rios 5th. 4 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/11861998560092160) via txt (http://twitter.com/devices)
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1170850498/DSCN1905_bigger.JPG (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien)
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien)

That's the exact opposite of how the lineup should be.

Rios should bat third.

That was my thinking,too.

Rios bats third,Dunn fourth,Konerko (god willing) bats fifth

asindc
12-07-2010, 08:27 AM
The signing of Dunn was a de facto rejection of Ozzieball. So, leave it to Ozzie to try to circumvent the clearest path to success. Any idiot knows you sandwich Dunn between Rios and Konerko, but alas Ozzie is not your typical idiot.

Yes, but what I'm dying to know is how does this move make Jerry Reinsdorf cheap???

I'm dying to know how having Dunn on the team prevents Ozzie from managing the team the way he wants, given that Pierre, Beckham, Alexei, Rios, and TCQ still play for the Sox.

dickallen15
12-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Alex Rios was awful the second half of the year. He doesn't get on base enough to bat third. Dunn/Konerko vs. RHP, Konerko/Dunn vs. LHP. That's how 3/4 should be handled.

His OPS was .686 the second half. That's lower than AJP's season total. I don't know why anyone wants him batting 3rd or 4th.

Lyle Mouton
12-07-2010, 08:41 AM
lolwut? Maybe you're thinking of September and October, where he was admittedly not very good. Looking at his splits, those were his only bad months of the year.
Four months with an OPS below .800. Woof.

asindc
12-07-2010, 08:44 AM
Alex Rios was awful the second half of the year. He doesn't get on base enough to bat third. Dunn/Konerko vs. RHP, Konerko/Dunn vs. LHP. That's how 3/4 should be handled.

His OPS was .686 the second half. That's lower than AJP's season total. I don't know why anyone wants him batting 3rd or 4th.

Because of his speed and ability to make contact, and more importantly, with Konerko, there will be at least three other guys in the lineup who are better run producers. I prefer to have the speed in front of the run producers instead behind them in the lineup.

Lillian
12-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Alex Rios was awful the second half of the year. He doesn't get on base enough to bat third. Dunn/Konerko vs. RHP, Konerko/Dunn vs. LHP. That's how 3/4 should be handled.

His OPS was .686 the second half. That's lower than AJP's season total. I don't know why anyone wants him batting 3rd or 4th.

Thank you for posting that.
Isn't it curious how forgiving everyone is of Rios' slump, yet so quick to dismiss Quentin as totally useless?
Carlos is still the better suited number three hitter. Perhaps hitting in front of Dunn and Konerko, would help him to regain his slugging prowess.

dickallen15
12-07-2010, 09:25 AM
Because of his speed and ability to make contact, and more importantly, with Konerko, there will be at least three other guys in the lineup who are better run producers. I prefer to have the speed in front of the run producers instead behind them in the lineup.

So he's fast running back to the dugout. You need guys that get on base in that position. Speed means nothing when he isn't getting on base or hitting much. Ability to make contact? He'a a 100 a year strikeout guy. There is nothing wrong with Konerko batting with Dunn on first base after he walked or a couple of guys on. Or there is nothing wrong with Dunn batting with Konerko on first base. It could easily be 2 runs. Rios wasn't even very successful running the second half. The dude either wore out or went back to being what he probably is. I know if I were KW and other GMs had the opinion of Alex Rios many posters do, Alex would be an ex White Sox quickly. Get out of that contract and get back something for him. Half the 2010 season he played as bad as he played in Toronto for Toronto to give him up for nothing.

asindc
12-07-2010, 09:57 AM
So he's fast running back to the dugout. You need guys that get on base in that position. Speed means nothing when he isn't getting on base or hitting much. Ability to make contact? He'a a 100 a year strikeout guy. There is nothing wrong with Konerko batting with Dunn on first base after he walked or a couple of guys on. Or there is nothing wrong with Dunn batting with Konerko on first base. It could easily be 2 runs. Rios wasn't even very successful running the second half. The dude either wore out or went back to being what he probably is. I know if I were KW and other GMs had the opinion of Alex Rios many posters do, Alex would be an ex White Sox quickly. Get out of that contract and get back something for him. Half the 2010 season he played as bad as he played in Toronto for Toronto to give him up for nothing.

Ok, I get it. You don't like Rios' game and you prefer that the deal could be undone. We disagree on how to construct the lineup as well. But that doesn't mean that the team would not be better off with Rios batting in front of guys who are better run producers than he is. Now, if you think Rios will be more like the 2nd half of 2010 player than a player closer to his career norms, than I see your point. But that is where we disagree.

Rios is not quite as good as the 1st half of 2010, but he is not as bad the 2nd half of 2010. As long as he gives us career norms, I'd bat him 3rd in front of Dunn and then Konerko, because Rios will score from first more often than they will, and from second on short singles. If you think TCQ will get close to 2008 again, I can see batting him 3rd because he also has a better ability to score from 1st and 2nd in more situations than Dunn and Konerko, though not quite as good as Rios.

In your scenario, Rios would bat behind Dunn, Konerko, and possibly TCQ. In your proposed lineup, Rios would strand the 3 in front of him more often than TCQ would (especially if Rios performs as badly as you think he will), with the added disadvantage of burying Rios' speed in the middle of the lineup. I just can't see how the maximize's the Sox' ability to score runs.

dickallen15
12-07-2010, 10:13 AM
Ok, I get it. You don't like Rios' game and you prefer that the deal could be undone. We disagree on how to construct the lineup as well. But that doesn't mean that the team would not be better off with Rios batting in front of guys who are better run producers than he is. Now, if you think Rios will be more like the 2nd half of 2010 player than a player closer to his career norms, than I see your point. But that is where we disagree.

Rios is not quite as good as the 1st half of 2010, but he is not as bad the 2nd half of 2010. As long as he gives us career norms, I'd bat him 3rd in front of Dunn and then Konerko, because Rios will score from first more often than they will, and from second on short singles. If you think TCQ will get close to 2008 again, I can see batting him 3rd because he also has a better ability to score from 1st and 2nd in more situations than Dunn and Konerko, though not quite as good as Rios.

In your scenario, Rios would bat behind Dunn, Konerko, and possibly TCQ. In your proposed lineup, Rios would strand the 3 in front of him more often than TCQ would (especially if Rios performs as badly as you think he will), with the added disadvantage of burying Rios' speed in the middle of the lineup. I just can't see how the maximize's the Sox' ability to score runs.
Alex Rios makes more outs per plate appearance than Konerko, Dunn and even Quentin. I prefer the guys who make less outs and produce more runs bat more than the guys who make less outs and produce less runs even though they may run faster. The Sox put Pierre in the leadoff spot. That's already one spot where they give up some OBP for speed. You don't need to do that 2 of the first 4 or 5 spots.

DonnieDarko
12-07-2010, 10:26 AM
Four months with an OPS below .800. Woof.

Because OPS is the be-all, end all stat, right?

Looking at his stats, he didn't start to hit the wall until around August, and then dropped off the table in September and those three or four games in October.

dickallen15
12-07-2010, 10:39 AM
Because OPS is the be-all, end all stat, right?

Looking at his stats, he didn't start to hit the wall until around August, and then dropped off the table in September and those three or four games in October.

OPS is pretty significant for a 3 or 4 hitter. He had a decent batting average in July, but his OBP was down and his OPS only .735. The fact is this guy who was brutal with the Sox in 2009 has had 1 good half in more than a season with the Sox. I don't understand how he has been annointed the #3 hitter. Bat him down in the line up. If he hits like he hit the first half he can always be moved up.

Carlos Quentin is slammed around here, yet he slugs higher than him and gets on base more than him. He doesn't steal bases and defensively he's challenged, but people want to get rid of Quentin and the possible $5 million he will make and think Rios' $12 million a year is almost a bargain. It really makes no sense.

doublem23
12-07-2010, 10:57 AM
OPS is pretty significant for a 3 or 4 hitter. He had a decent batting average in July, but his OBP was down and his OPS only .735. The fact is this guy who was brutal with the Sox in 2009 has had 1 good half in more than a season with the Sox. I don't understand how he has been annointed the #3 hitter. Bat him down in the line up. If he hits like he hit the first half he can always be moved up.

Carlos Quentin is slammed around here, yet he slugs higher than him and gets on base more than him. He doesn't steal bases and defensively he's challenged, but people want to get rid of Quentin and the possible $5 million he will make and think Rios' $12 million a year is almost a bargain. It really makes no sense.

Quentin's also completely unreliable and his streakiness is aggravating. Yeah his end of year numbers are all right, but man, when he disappears, he disappears.

Bottom line is both Rios and Quentin are very capable and talented baseball players who aggravatingly cannot tap their full potential because they take mental vacations from time to time. Not everyone can bat low in the lineup until they figure out their ****.

Red Barchetta
12-07-2010, 11:03 AM
My ideal lineup would be

1 Pierre LF
2 Alexei SS
3 Dunn DH
4 Konerko 1B
5 Quentin RF
6 AJ C
7 Rios CF
8 Beckham 2B
9 Vizquel 3B


I would move Rios up to the 3-spot and then move everyone down a slot. I don't get the "Dunn must bat in the first inning" objective unless Ozzie is looking at some kind of statistic showing Dunn's power numbers during the first inning over the course of his career.

asindc
12-07-2010, 11:06 AM
Alex Rios makes more outs per plate appearance than Konerko, Dunn and even Quentin. I prefer the guys who make less outs and produce more runs bat more than the guys who make less outs and produce less runs even though they may run faster. The Sox put Pierre in the leadoff spot. That's already one spot where they give up some OBP for speed. You don't need to do that 2 of the first 4 or 5 spots.

The logical extension of your argument is that you build a lineup starting with your highest OPS guy at leadoff and then go 2nd through 9th in order of OPS. With that kind of lineup, the higher OPS guys would score less often than having the speed guys in front of them would, simply because they lesser OPS guys would not knock them in as often as the speed guys would be knocked by the higher OPS guys behind them. I prefer having guys on in front of the run producers, even if they don't get on as often as the run producers.

A good example of what I'm talking about can be found from this past season. Compared to the Sox, another team had a lower slugging %, lower BA, lower OPS, fewer hits, fewer HRs, and about the same OBP (.333 vs. the Sox' .332), yet scored 50 more runs than the Sox. I think it's because that team batted B.J. Upton and Carl Crawford in front of their best OPS guy, rather than behind him.

dickallen15
12-07-2010, 02:57 PM
The logical extension of your argument is that you build a lineup starting with your highest OPS guy at leadoff and then go 2nd through 9th in order of OPS. With that kind of lineup, the higher OPS guys would score less often than having the speed guys in front of them would, simply because they lesser OPS guys would not knock them in as often as the speed guys would be knocked by the higher OPS guys behind them. I prefer having guys on in front of the run producers, even if they don't get on as often as the run producers.

A good example of what I'm talking about can be found from this past season. Compared to the Sox, another team had a lower slugging %, lower BA, lower OPS, fewer hits, fewer HRs, and about the same OBP (.333 vs. the Sox' .332), yet scored 50 more runs than the Sox. I think it's because that team batted B.J. Upton and Carl Crawford in front of their best OPS guy, rather than behind him.

The Sox have no one that can even compare to Crawford. The idea you threw around about my position would be a perfect line up in Little League. Obviously not in professional baseball. However, letting Alex Rios make outs and perhaps causing Paul Konerko ABs, or ABs with runners on isn't going to help the team unless Rios plays like he played the first half of the season. Name a guy in baseball history who batted clean up because he was fast. Having Dunn/Konerko or Konerko/Dunn increases the chances of them batting with runners on base. Considering they are guys capable of putting up near 40 home runs, that's pretty good. If Rios is worthy of batting clean up, why not 5th or 6th and let the guys who get on base a better percentage of the time get on base? Big Papi and Manny weren't broken up for a speedster in between.

asindc
12-07-2010, 05:34 PM
The Sox have no one that can even compare to Crawford. The idea you threw around about my position would be a perfect line up in Little League. Obviously not in professional baseball. However, letting Alex Rios make outs and perhaps causing Paul Konerko ABs, or ABs with runners on isn't going to help the team unless Rios plays like he played the first half of the season. Name a guy in baseball history who batted clean up because he was fast. Having Dunn/Konerko or Konerko/Dunn increases the chances of them batting with runners on base. Considering they are guys capable of putting up near 40 home runs, that's pretty good. If Rios is worthy of batting clean up, why not 5th or 6th and let the guys who get on base a better percentage of the time get on base? Big Papi and Manny weren't broken up for a speedster in between.

1) Having Rios perform to career norms will help the team even if he does not duplicate his 1st half 2010 performance.

2) I have not in this thread, or at any other time during my lifetime, advocated that someone bat cleanup because he is fast. You seem to have confused my posts with someone else's.

3) I don't consider Rios worthy of batting cleanup, and have made that point several times in this thread. In fact, earlier in this thread I said, "I'd rather have his [Rios] speed, SBs, and better contact as a hitter at #3 than #4, especially since (if Konerko signs) there will be three guys on the team who are better suited to bat cleanup." For the record, I want to see this lineup:

Pierre
Beckham
Rios
Dunn
Konerko
TCQ
AJ
Alexei
Morel

4) You are right, Ortiz and Manny were not broken up, including in 2004 when Orlando Cabrera batted directly in front of them, which is consistent with what I have been stating in this thread. Again, it seems you have confused my posts with someone else's.

BringHomeDaBacon
12-07-2010, 07:27 PM
OPS is pretty significant for a 3 or 4 hitter. He had a decent batting average in July, but his OBP was down and his OPS only .735. The fact is this guy who was brutal with the Sox in 2009 has had 1 good half in more than a season with the Sox. I don't understand how he has been annointed the #3 hitter. Bat him down in the line up. If he hits like he hit the first half he can always be moved up.

Carlos Quentin is slammed around here, yet he slugs higher than him and gets on base more than him. He doesn't steal bases and defensively he's challenged, but people want to get rid of Quentin and the possible $5 million he will make and think Rios' $12 million a year is almost a bargain. It really makes no sense.

I agree with this assessment. Rios has been lousy for two send halves in a row and people around here speak of him like he's Willie Mays. His career .777 OPS, .281 AVG and only 17 HRs/162 games should tell you that he's not a #3 hitter at all. He's a nice player and a great defender but not someone to build your offense around. #2 or #6 would be most appropriate for his level of offensive production which, by the way, is on par with that of Alexei Ramirez (career .751 OPS, .283 AVG, 20 HR/162 games)

Additionally, even though he stole 34 bases last year he was only successful 70.8% of the time which is just about the break even point.