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View Full Version : If Konerko DOES Re-sign. . .


JermaineDye05
12-04-2010, 11:28 PM
do you consider the Sox the favorites to win the Central next season?

VMSNS
12-04-2010, 11:34 PM
It's still too early to tell.

With Miggy and Martinez, plus the possibility of Werth, the Tigers are going to have some thunder in their lineup, but their pitching is still a little suspect. And even though a lot of their team could be gone because of free agency, you can always count on the Twins to make things interesting.

I think how well the Sox do next year depends on how consistent our rotation his, how Sale fits into all of this, and what the bullpen does.

Rockabilly
12-04-2010, 11:37 PM
We still need a 3B, a lot of bullpen help and RF

MarkZ35
12-04-2010, 11:39 PM
Its going to be a solid top 3. Detroit is going to win a lot of highscoring games especially if they get Werth. Of course the Twins will be the Twins with a horseshoe up their asses. The Sox look to be the most balanced team so I think it will be a toss up regardless of the rest of the signings still to come. As it stands right now I gotta go with the Sox but if the Tigers do sign Werth and a solid SP I think they are slight favorites in my opinion. But as they say you gotta play the games.

ZombieRob
12-04-2010, 11:43 PM
No. IMO the Twins are still better than the Sox in every aspect. That and they are in the Sox' players heads. The Twins bullpen could and should be dominating this season.

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 11:47 PM
We still need a 3B and RF

I think you are going to be disappointed. Kenny sounds committed to Morel/Omar and Quentin.

cards press box
12-04-2010, 11:50 PM
do you consider the Sox the favorites to win the Central next season?

Yes.

ZombieRob
12-04-2010, 11:53 PM
Not doubting you, but what do you base that on?

Rockabilly
12-04-2010, 11:53 PM
I think you are going to be disappointed. Kenny sounds committed to Morel/Omar and Quentin.

I wouldn't mind seeing Morel/Omar at 3rd but want a new RF.

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 11:55 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Morel/Omar at 3rd but want a new RF.

As would I, but I'm not expecting it.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2010, 12:17 AM
Still far to early to say anything.

The Sox still have to rebuild a bullpen for one thing while the Twins may or may not cut payroll (depending on who you read) and seemingly half of their team are free agents.

Lip

Boondock Saint
12-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Still far to early to say anything.

The Sox still have to rebuild a bullpen for one thing while the Twins may or may not cut payroll (depending on who you read) and seemingly half of their team are free agents.

Lip

Exactly. If they do put some quality arms in the pen, including a good closer, I don't see any reason why the Sox can't run away with the division.

cards press box
12-05-2010, 12:49 AM
Not doubting you, but what do you base that on?

I have a few reasons:

1. The Sox still have top flight starting pitching. Let's assume that the Sox bring back Freddy Garcia. Even if Jake Peavy isn't ready in April, then the Sox would still have a rotation of Buerhle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson/Garcia with Chris Sale waiting in the wings. Toward the end of last year, Sale reminded me of a young Randy Johnson.

If Peavy comes back to full health, the Sox will have perhaps seven capable starters. This depth can only be a plus.

2. Strength up the middle. The Sox will have Alex Rios in CF, Alexei Ramirez at SS, Gordon Beckham at 2B and A.J. Pierzynski at C. Alex is the Sox' best CF since Mike Cameron and A.J. calls a terrific game. Ramirez and Beckham are developing into championship quality defenders at SS and 2B.

3. Defense. Brent Morel is an excellent defender at 3B. With Ramirez/Beckham and Konerko, that is excellent infield defense. AJ calls a superb game and handles the pitching staff well. The Sox have two outfielders, Pierre and Rios, who cover a lot of ground. Quentin is adequate in RF. Overall, this is a very good defense.

4. Bounce back seasons from Beckham and Quentin. Both players struggled last season but rallied toward the end of the season. People forget that Quentin ended up with 26 homers. With the addition of Adam Dunn and hopefully with the retention of Paul Konerko, the pressure should be off Beckham and Quentin. I see them having nice seasons.

5. Strength in the middle of the lineup. Rios, Dunn, Konerko and Quentin will, in some combination, hit 3rd through 6th. That is a lot of power and run production. If Juan Pierre can have a season similar to his 2010 campaign and if Beckham rounds into form and bats 2nd, the Sox offense could be very potent.

6. The Bullpen. I know that there a lot of question marks after Matt Thornton and Sergio Santos but the Sox have options to fill some slots, both internally and externally. I expect that KW will build a good bullpen.

7. The Bench. Ramon Castro is a good hitter and a good back-up catcher. Omar Vizquel gives experience, versatility and excellent defense at all of the infield positions. Brent Lillibridge brings flexibility and a good pinch runner for the late innings. If he is not dealt, Mark Teahan brings some flexibility as an infielder/outfielder and, in my view, is a better player than we saw last year. If the Sox carry 12 pitchers, that is the likely Sox bench. I also expect Andruw Jones to move on to another club. If the Sox deal Teahan, however, I could see them keeping Jones as a reserve at the right price.

Adding all this up, the Sox have the fewest weaknesses among the contenders in the AL Central. Consequently, if the Sox re-sign Paul Konerko, I like their chances to go back to the playoffs.

QCIASOXFAN
12-05-2010, 12:55 AM
Exactly. If they do put some quality arms in the pen, including a good closer, I don't see any reason why the Sox can't run away with the division.
I don't think anybody is going to run away with the division, but if they rebuild the bullpen strong I would say they are favorites.

HomeFish
12-05-2010, 12:57 AM
No, but you knew that.

KMcMahon817
12-05-2010, 01:51 AM
We still need a 3B, a lot of bullpen help and RF

Offensively, there may have been three better RF in baseball last season. And that was a down year. Carlos is no asset in the field, but I just don't get all the hate. Sure he's been injured his fair share, but TCQ will be a very big piece of the SOX lineup if they plan on playing to their full potential. There is no way any GM could get fair value for him at this point in time.

sullythered
12-05-2010, 02:31 AM
No. IMO the Twins are still better than the Sox in every aspect. That and they are in the Sox' players heads. The Twins bullpen could and should be dominating this season.

Every aspect? Their starting pitching is not better than the Sox. Not at all.

JermaineDye05
12-05-2010, 03:42 AM
Every aspect? Their starting pitching is not better than the Sox. Not at all.

Neither is their shortstop. That includes both defensively and offensively. It helps that the Sox have the best all around shortstop in the league though.

Lillian
12-05-2010, 04:01 AM
We still need a 3B, a lot of bullpen help and RF

Is there any reasonable chance that Dallas McPherson could be healthy enough to play a decent 3B, and contribute on offense?

asindc
12-05-2010, 08:06 AM
No. IMO the Twins are still better than the Sox in every aspect. That and they are in the Sox' players heads. The Twins bullpen could and should be dominating this season.

I'm copying a post I wrote in another thread:



Far better? Seriously? Are you taking into account that there are several guys that played for Minny last year that are FAs "as of right now?" According to Cot's (* means that there is an option):

Jim Thome MIN
Orlando Hudson MIN
J.J. Hardy MIN (Arb 3)
Nick Punto MIN * (club option)
Michael Cuddyer MIN * (club option)
Jason Kubel MIN * (club option)
Carl Pavano MIN
Jesse Crain MIN
Randy Flores MIN
Brian Fuentes MIN
Matt Guerrier MIN
Ron Mahay MIN
Jon Rauch MIN
Brian Duensing MIN

Note that the list includes both starting middle IFs, 2/3 of the starting OF, their best SP from last year, and almost their entire bullpen. So you might want to "see what the [Twinkees] do with [their] bullpen [among other things] before declaring them "far better than the Sox as of right now."



To update: Apparently the Twinkees have exercised the options on Kubel and Cuddyer while declining on Punto. They still have less of a bullpen than we do at this point, and not one starter better than our 4th starter.

It seems that the Twinkees are in the heads of some Sox fans.

dickallen15
12-05-2010, 08:15 AM
Is there any reasonable chance that Dallas McPherson could be healthy enough to play a decent 3B, and contribute on offense?
About the same as Lloyd Christmas, one in a million.

lths06
12-05-2010, 09:11 AM
I have a few reasons:

1. The Sox still have top flight starting pitching. Let's assume that the Sox bring back Freddy Garcia. Even if Jake Peavy isn't ready in April, then the Sox would still have a rotation of Buerhle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson/Garcia with Chris Sale waiting in the wings. Toward the end of last year, Sale reminded me of a young Randy Johnson.

If Peavy comes back to full health, the Sox will have perhaps seven capable starters. This depth can only be a plus.

2. Strength up the middle. The Sox will have Alex Rios in CF, Alexei Ramirez at SS, Gordon Beckham at 2B and A.J. Pierzynski at C. Alex is the Sox' best CF since CF and A.J. calls a terrific game. Ramirez and Beckham are developing into championship quality defenders at SS and 2B.

3. Defense. Brent Morel is an excellent defender at 3B. With Ramirez/Beckham and Konerko, that is excellent infield defense. AJ calls a superb game and handles the pitching staff well. The Sox have two outfielders, Pierre and Rios, who cover a lot of ground. Quentin is adequate in RF. Overall, this is a very good defense.

4. Bounce back seasons from Beckham and Quentin. Both players struggled last season but rallied toward the end of the season. People forget that Quentin ended up with 26 homers. With the addition of Adam Dunn and hopefully with the retention of Paul Konerko, the pressure should be off Beckham and Quentin. I see them having nice seasons.

5. Strength in the middle of the lineup. Rios, Dunn, Konerko and Quentin will, in some combination, hit 3rd through 6th. That is a lot of power and run production. If Juan Pierre can have a season similar to his 2010 campaign and if Beckham rounds into form and bats 2nd, the Sox offense could be very potent.

6. The Bullpen. I know that there a lot of question marks after Matt Thornton and Sergio Santos but the Sox have options to fill some slots, both internally and externally. I expect that KW will build a good bullpen.

7. The Bench. Ramon Castro is a good hitter and a good back-up catcher. Omar Vizquel gives experience, versatility and excellent defense at all of the infield positions. Brent Lillibridge brings flexibility and a good pinch runner for the late innings. If he is not dealt, Mark Teahan brings some flexibility as an infielder/outfielder and, in my view, is a better player than we saw last year. If the Sox carry 12 pitchers, that is the likely Sox bench. I also expect Andruw Jones to move on to another club. If the Sox deal Teahan, however, I could see them keeping Jones as a reserve at the right price.

Adding all this up, the Sox have the fewest weaknesses among the contenders in the AL Central. Consequently, if the Sox re-sign Paul Konerko, I like their chances to go back to the playoffs.

This post alone gets me excited for the season and gives me great hope :) Thanks!

Red Barchetta
12-05-2010, 09:43 AM
No. IMO the Twins are still better than the Sox in every aspect. That and they are in the Sox' players heads. The Twins bullpen could and should be dominating this season.

That's the key. The SOX had a better record than the Twins last season, except when they played the Twins. That was the deciding factor in winning the division.

The entire organization, including the broadcasting team, needs to put a big chip on their shoulder and stop sucking up to almighty Twins organization.

I was really hoping with the Twins moving out of the dome that their mystique would go away. It seems as though it just got worse this past season as the SOX no longer had the dome to blame for their inability to beat the Twins.

Lyle Mouton
12-05-2010, 09:57 AM
Yes. By a lot.

soxlady8
12-05-2010, 01:35 PM
Cards Press Box -- wow -- wonderful post ---
I have so much optimism right now !!!

Ranger
12-05-2010, 04:06 PM
We still need a 3B, a lot of bullpen help and RF

I don't think they need a 3B and RF. They have those already, though they may not be ideal. The Sox can still win with Morel and Quentin.

The bullpen, on the other hand, is now a source of concern with Jenks gone and Putz probably gone.

No. IMO the Twins are still better than the Sox in every aspect. That and they are in the Sox' players heads. The Twins bullpen could and should be dominating this season.

Twins bullpen dominating? I don't see that. Nathan will be back, but he may not be the same after surgery (don't forget he's not a young player anymore), and they may not have Capps, Guerrier, and Crain.

The Twins, also, do not have the same starting pitching the Sox do. Two things: 1) The Twins had pretty good starting pitching year last year, but I wouldn't count on that again (if they have the same group). I think more often than not, the Sox staff outperforms the names on the Twins staff. And 2) They may not even have Pavano next year, and even if they do, I'd be surprised if he does again what he did last year. Pavano's 2010 was more of an anomaly than anything else.

JermaineDye05
12-05-2010, 04:13 PM
The Twins, also, do not have the same starting pitching the Sox do. Two things: 1) The Twins had pretty good starting pitching year last year, but I wouldn't count on that again (if they have the same group). I think more often than not, the Sox staff outperforms the names on the Twins staff. And 2) They may not even have Pavano next year, and even if they do, I'd be surprised if he does again what he did last year. Pavano's 2010 was more of an anomaly than anything else.

Yeah, the Twins rotation got a big lift last year from a remarkable season by Pavano.

Liriano is good, Slowey is alright, and Duensing did show promise last year, but after that, I don't know. If they don't re-sign Pavano or another capable starter, they won't be able to hide Nick Blackburn anymore.

Their rotation if the season started tomorrow:

Liriano
Slowey
Duensing
Baker
Blackburn

Yeah, I'll take Peavy, Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Jackson, over that 10 times out of 10. Even with the injury concerns surrounding Jake, I still take our rotation. Then again, I do have a soft spot and an uber man crush on Jake.

Also, remember that we have Sale waiting in the wings. Something tells me he's gonna get here quickly.

Ranger
12-05-2010, 04:32 PM
Yeah, the Twins rotation got a big lift last year from a remarkable season by Pavano.

Liriano is good, Slowey is alright, and Duensing did show promise last year, but after that, I don't know. If they don't re-sign Pavano or another capable starter, they won't be able to hide Nick Blackburn anymore.

Their rotation if the season started tomorrow:

Liriano
Slowey
Duensing
Baker
Blackburn

Yeah, I'll take Peavy, Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Jackson, over that 10 times out of 10. Even with the injury concerns surrounding Jake, I still take our rotation. Then again, I do have a soft spot and an uber man crush on Jake.

Also, remember that we have Sale waiting in the wings. Something tells me he's gonna get here quickly.

To be fair, we have to remember that Peavy may not return right away and we don't know how effective he'll be when he does return. That has to be considered. But even without him, I'd take the Sox first 4 over the Twins first 4. After Liriano, there isn't anyone over there that does anything for me.

Domeshot17
12-05-2010, 04:42 PM
To be fair, we have to remember that Peavy may not return right away and we don't know how effective he'll be when he does return. That has to be considered. But even without him, I'd take the Sox first 4 over the Twins first 4. After Liriano, there isn't anyone over there that does anything for me.

All things considered, I think the Sox have the better rotation, The Twins have the better O (although this is if Morneau comes back healthy) but our offense isn't far behind at all if PK comes back. Both bullpens have a lot of questions, but the Twins right now I think have an edge, and they tend to play better D/better fundamentals.

As usual, this season could come down to how well the teams play against each other. What can the Sox do to get the Twins out of their heads? The Twins usually own us in head to head play and mentally they have a bid edge over us. We need to change that this year.

JermaineDye05
12-05-2010, 04:44 PM
To be fair, we have to remember that Peavy may not return right away and we don't know how effective he'll be when he does return. That has to be considered. But even without him, I'd take the Sox first 4 over the Twins first 4. After Liriano, there isn't anyone over there that does anything for me.

With the Sox, I'm also most looking forward to Danks as I have big expectations for him. He's improved every season, and now with the possibility of a pretty formidable offense (assuming Konerko re-signs), I think a lot of those hard luck losses he's had over the years will turn into wins.

Domeshot17
12-05-2010, 05:06 PM
With the Sox, I'm also most looking forward to Danks as I have big expectations for him. He's improved every season, and now with the possibility of a pretty formidable offense (assuming Konerko re-signs), I think a lot of those hard luck losses he's had over the years will turn into wins.

I think Danks has the potential, but he has to step up too. Hard luck losses are one thing, but he had some games we needed to win down the stretch where he battled his control and gave runs up. He has to grab command of his pitches and limit the bad games to truly step up as the number 1 of the staff. We need him to as well, he is really the only potential number 1 in our rotation outside of Peavy.

dwitt76
12-05-2010, 05:18 PM
White sox need to play better against our own division, Obviously against Minnesota we were a disaster, But also against KC, Clev and Det weren't too much better.

thomas35forever
12-05-2010, 05:45 PM
The Twins are the best in the division until proven otherwise. I don't care if we have the Yankees lineup. We need to get rid of that loser mentality when we play that team from Minnesota.

JermaineDye05
12-05-2010, 06:04 PM
We need to get rid of that loser mentality when we play that team from Minnesota.

I don't think it's a loser mentality that the players have.

The loser mentality is more on us.

The players, coaches, and broadcasters seem more adept at kissing the Twinkies' asses.

cards press box
12-05-2010, 07:01 PM
Cards Press Box -- wow -- wonderful post ---
I have so much optimism right now !!!

I am glad to hear it. I, too, am optimistic and can't wait for opening day!

Lip Man 1
12-05-2010, 07:59 PM
JD:

The White Sox lost five games this season to the Twins where they had the lead in the 7th inning or later...make of that what you will but to me it shows that mentally all is not right with the club.

It appears they have the mind-set "how can we blow this game now?" as opposed to "let's close this out and nail these SOB's..."

Lip

khan
12-06-2010, 12:08 PM
Their starting pitching is not better than the Sox. Not at all.

They still have less of a bullpen than we do at this point, and not one starter better than our 4th starter.

I'm not going to take the SOX's/the media's overrating of this pitching rotation at face value. Look at the numbers from last season. The SOX rotation underachieved, while the twins overachieved. The twins enjoyed better performances from their SPs, whether we like it or not.

Until the SOX SPs can PROVE that they're better than the Twins, I'm gonna have to say that they're not better.

Until Jackson can duplicate the anomaly of his August, I'm not convinced he's better than any of the twins' SPs. [Honestly, look at the stats, look at his history, and judge for yourself.]

Until Buehrle can find a cure for aging, I'm not convinced he's better [RIGHT NOW] than the twins SPs that outperformed him. [Hell, even Freddy Garcia's WHIP and K/9IP were better than Buerhle's this past season...]

Until Peavy can prove that he's not a china doll and can finish a season in a SOX uniform with more than 200 IP [which he hasn't done since 2007], we can no longer automatically assume that he's an "ace."

I'd take Danks over any of the twins' SPs, but color me less-than-certain about Garcia, and disappointed in Floyd's downward trend in production.


Again, I will no longer take at face value this idea that the SOX rotation is better than the twins' rotation, just because the media and the SOX tell us so. The results did not support this assumption, whether we like it or not.


The Twins, also, do not have the same starting pitching the Sox do. Two things: 1) The Twins had pretty good starting pitching year last year, but I wouldn't count on that again (if they have the same group). I think more often than not, the Sox staff outperforms the names on the Twins staff.
Ranger, I'd love it if the SOX will have a better pitching staff than the twins. I'm curious as to why you think that the SOX pitching staff will outperform the twins?


And 2) They may not even have Pavano next year, and even if they do, I'd be surprised if he does again what he did last year. Pavano's 2010 was more of an anomaly than anything else.
If Pavano's 2010 was an anomaly, what was Edwin Jackson's 2010? [Looking at the splits, it was two measly months that were outstanding for Jackson, surrounded by piles of crap in 2010.]


If anything, I'm hopeful that the starting rotation's performance will match the hype. But, I don't take it as a given. They'll have to prove it before I'll buy in.

Ranger
12-06-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm not going to take the SOX's/the media's overrating of this pitching rotation at face value. Look at the numbers from last season. The SOX rotation underachieved, while the twins overachieved. The twins enjoyed better performances from their SPs, whether we like it or not.

Until the SOX SPs can PROVE that they're better than the Twins, I'm gonna have to say that they're not better.

Until Jackson can duplicate the anomaly of his August, I'm not convinced he's better than any of the twins' SPs. [Honestly, look at the stats, look at his history, and judge for yourself.]

Until Buehrle can find a cure for aging, I'm not convinced he's better [RIGHT NOW] than the twins SPs that outperformed him. [Hell, even Freddy Garcia's WHIP and K/9IP were better than Buerhle's this past season...]

Until Peavy can prove that he's not a china doll and can finish a season in a SOX uniform with more than 200 IP [which he hasn't done since 2007], we can no longer automatically assume that he's an "ace."

I'd take Danks over any of the twins' SPs, but color me less-than-certain about Garcia, and disappointed in Floyd's downward trend in production.


Again, I will no longer take at face value this idea that the SOX rotation is better than the twins' rotation, just because the media and the SOX tell us so. The results did not support this assumption, whether we like it or not.



Ranger, I'd love it if the SOX will have a better pitching staff than the twins. I'm curious as to why you think that the SOX pitching staff will outperform the twins?



If Pavano's 2010 was an anomaly, what was Edwin Jackson's 2010? [Looking at the splits, it was two measly months that were outstanding for Jackson, surrounded by piles of crap in 2010.]


If anything, I'm hopeful that the starting rotation's performance will match the hype. But, I don't take it as a given. They'll have to prove it before I'll buy in.

Because Edwin Jackson is 27 and has been a full-time starter for only 4 years. Carl Pavano will be 35 when the season starts and has been mostly unimpressive over his career. One starter is younger and still growing, the other has been in the big leagues since 1998. The track record for the older pitcher suggests he's more likely to NOT pitch like that again.

It isn't out of the question that, in a given season, one staff will have a better year than the other...even though that staff my not truly be as good.

You said it yourself above: the Sox underachieved, while the Twins overachieved this past year. I think you're right and that's exactly what I'm saying. I wouldn't count on that again. I mean, if you were assembling a team and would rather have Slowey/Baker/Blackburn,Duensing over Buehrle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson, by all means, have fun. Beyond Liriano, I'm not more confident in anyone they have over anyone the Sox have.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2010, 03:06 PM
According to some players around the league (including the Sox) Pavano was 'doctoring' the baseball last year which if true helps account for his turnaround. It may be harder to get away with that again this time around.

Lip

TheVulture
12-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Until Jackson can duplicate the anomaly of his August, I'm not convinced he's better than any of the twins' SPs. [Honestly, look at the stats, look at his history, and judge for yourself.]



I'm looking at Jackson's stuff and the fact no one but NO ONE has a better track record of identifying talented starting pitchers that haven't quite lived up to their potential than KW and whoever it is KW listens to on this subject. And then of course you have the Cooper effect.

Daver
12-06-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm looking at Jackson's stuff and the fact no one but NO ONE has a better track record of identifying talented starting pitchers that haven't quite lived up to their potential than KW and whoever it is KW listens to on this subject.

Kirk Champion and Don Cooper are involved in anything pitching related, for good reason.

khan
12-07-2010, 11:18 AM
Because Edwin Jackson is 27 and has been a full-time starter for only 4 years. Carl Pavano will be 35 when the season starts and has been mostly unimpressive over his career. One starter is younger and still growing, the other has been in the big leagues since 1998. The track record for the older pitcher suggests he's more likely to NOT pitch like that again.

You said it yourself above: the Sox underachieved, while the Twins overachieved this past year. I think you're right and that's exactly what I'm saying. I wouldn't count on that again. I mean, if you were assembling a team and would rather have Slowey/Baker/Blackburn,Duensing over Buehrle/Danks/Floyd/Jackson, by all means, have fun. Beyond Liriano, I'm not more confident in anyone they have over anyone the Sox have.
Ranger, I'm not stating that I'd rather have one staff over the other. I'm stating that all the things you said about Pavano, while true, are ALSO true about Jackson:

He's been mostly unimpressive, he's been inconsistent, and he had his lucky/contract drive in 2009 and unbelievable June and August of 2010. Other than that, Edwin Jackson has not been very good over the course of his career. As we know, pretty much any ballplayer that makes it to the bigs can have his career year [As Jackson did in 2009, or Loaiza did in 2003] or a lucky month or two [As Jackson did in June/August last season or Lillibridge did in parts of June and July].

Honestly, I wouldn't really want either Pavano or Jackson on the team. More importantly, I think it's incomplete analysis to suggest that ONLY Pavano had an anomaly in 2010 without saying the exact same thing about Jackson.

It's also very true that despite the overblown hype about the SOX's starting rotation, the twins' staff outperformed the SOX's. This is true, whether we like it or not. Because of this deficit in performance, I don't think that we as fans should stupidly listen to the BS the media and the SOX feed us about them.

I'm looking at Jackson's stuff and the fact no one but NO ONE has a better track record of identifying talented starting pitchers that haven't quite lived up to their potential than KW and whoever it is KW listens to on this subject. And then of course you have the Cooper effect.
Yeah, just like Mike Macdougal, David Aardsma, Jon Rauch, Ryan Bukvich, and others. Their "stuff" enabled them to rise above their craptacular performance histories, while KW, et. al have had impeccable track records at finding these gems.

We can say that at least Macdougal, Aardsma, Rauch, and Bukvich were at bargain-basement prices, though.

Boondock Saint
12-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Yeah, just like Mike Macdougal, David Aardsma, Jon Rauch, Ryan Bukvich, and others. Their "stuff" enabled them to rise above their craptacular performance histories, while KW, et. al have had impeccable track records at finding these gems.

We can say that at least Macdougal, Aardsma, Rauch, and Bukvich were at bargain-basement prices, though.

Relief pitching is a totally different world from starting pitching. Building a bullpen is the biggest crapshoot in sports. Bullpens collapse/guys flame out at a moments notice.

soltrain21
12-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Can Khan's Edwin Jackson rants get the same treatment as Brian Anderson rants?

khan
12-07-2010, 11:41 AM
Can Khan's Edwin Jackson rants get the same treatment as Brian Anderson rants?

Exactly how is that a "rant?"

I asked Ranger a question, and pointed out that he was [IMO] incomplete in terming Pavano's 2010 an anomaly, while not stating the same about Jackson.

BringHomeDaBacon
12-07-2010, 11:45 AM
You can't compare last year's numbers of the Sox staff with those of the Twins without factoring in the ballparks. We're talking about a top AL hitter's park in one case and a top AL pitcher's park in the other. Other than Liriano, I doubt that any of the Twins' hurlers would be able to hold there own while pitching in the Cell on a consistent basis. While I agree that the Sox staff is not as dominant as the club would have you believe, it is more than adequate to win the division with a consistent offense and reliable defense behind it.

khan
12-07-2010, 11:45 AM
Relief pitching is a totally different world from starting pitching. Building a bullpen is the biggest crapshoot in sports. Bullpens collapse/guys flame out at a moments notice.

Agreed. And Aardsma has enjoyed some success since his days here.

But the Vulture stated, ..." and the fact no one but NO ONE has a better track record of identifying talented starting pitchers that haven't quite lived up to their potential than KW and whoever it is KW listens to on this subject..."

I'm not sold on the idea that KW's better at finding talented underperformers than other GMs. For the all of the Thorntons and the Loaizas of the world, KW also unleashed the likes of Bukvich and Todd Ritchie and Bartolo Colon on this team, too.

Every GM hits and misses. I think that we hold KW to a higher degree of esteem because we're more familiar with his "hits" than other GMs.

Boondock Saint
12-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Agreed. And Aardsma has enjoyed some success since his days here.

But the Vulture stated, ..." and the fact no one but NO ONE has a better track record of identifying talented starting pitchers that haven't quite lived up to their potential than KW and whoever it is KW listens to on this subject..."

I'm not sold on the idea that KW's better at finding talented underperformers than other GMs. For the all of the Thorntons and the Loaizas of the world, KW also unleashed the likes of Bukvich and Todd Ritchie and Bartolo Colon on this team, too.

Every GM hits and misses. I think that we hold KW to a higher degree of esteem because we're more familiar with his "hits" than other GMs.

...and you proceeded to bring up a bevy of failed relief pitchers, which has nothing to do with what he said.

khan
12-07-2010, 11:58 AM
...and you proceeded to bring up a bevy of failed relief pitchers, which has nothing to do with what he said.

I also stated the following [cut and pasted from the exact post that you quoted]:

"...Todd Ritchie and Bartolo Colon on this team, too..."

Todd Ritchie was in fact a starting pitcher on the 2002 White Sox, who was acquired by KW, and who, despite being talented, proceeded to suck at baseball.

Bartolo Colon was also a starting pitcher on the 2009 White Sox. He too was acquired by KW. He also proceeded to suck at baseball in 2009.

Boondock Saint
12-07-2010, 12:01 PM
I also stated the following [cut and pasted from the exact post that you quoted]:

"...Todd Ritchie and Bartolo Colon on this team, too..."

Todd Ritchie was in fact a starting pitcher on the 2002 White Sox, who was acquired by KW, and who, despite being talented, proceeded to suck at baseball.

Bartolo Colon was also a starting pitcher on the 2009 White Sox. He too was acquired by KW. He also proceeded to suck at baseball in 2009.

You also didn't mention either of them in your original post. But this hijack has gone on long enough, and I'll step aside from here.

spawn
12-08-2010, 10:16 AM
He's back! Thread closed.