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View Full Version : If Konerko DOESN'T Re-Sign. . .


JermaineDye05
12-04-2010, 10:01 PM
Who do you want for first base?

DumpJerry
12-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Frank Thomas. We would need some power on the right side.

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 10:08 PM
LaRoche or D-Lee.

spawn
12-04-2010, 10:09 PM
LaRoche or D-Lee.
What he said.

Rockabilly
12-04-2010, 10:10 PM
LaRoche

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 10:10 PM
And if Kenny really is going all in, I'd take a Prince at 1B.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2010, 10:12 PM
LaRoche or D-Lee.

That sounds good to me!

DumpJerry
12-04-2010, 10:12 PM
And if Kenny really is going all in, I'd take a Prince at 1B.
No. His current contract and agent make him unattractive.

JermaineDye05
12-04-2010, 10:13 PM
And if Kenny really is going all in, I'd take a Prince at 1B.

Kenny supposedly asked about him before he signed Dunn

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101203&content_id=16248272&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Sounds like the Brewers wanted pitchers and the Sox weren't willing to give up, at least that's what I read into it.

spawn
12-04-2010, 10:15 PM
No. His current contract and agent make him unattractive.
Again...what he said.

VMSNS
12-04-2010, 10:16 PM
LaRoche
Pena
Lee

In that order.

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 10:18 PM
Kenny supposedly asked about him before he signed Dunn

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101203&content_id=16248272&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Sounds like the Brewers wanted pitchers and the Sox weren't willing to give up, at least that's what I read into it.

I don't think they really match up well. I assume Milwaukee wants touted pitching prospects as opposed to players that are already making millions. And the White Sox farm system has a stealing pile of nothing in that regard.

TDog
12-04-2010, 10:19 PM
If Konerko doesn't re-sign, Dunn will probably end up playing first base.

guillen4life13
12-04-2010, 10:20 PM
Adam Dunn.

Sign Thome for a year as a stopgap to DH and hopefully Viciedo develops a bit further into the guy for the job at 1B, allowing Dunn to DH at the end of the year and next year. Defense suffers a bit, but Thome isn't a bad guy to bring back as a DH. He was still productive last year and would come cheap, so the Sox can address some other needs. You have two left handed power hitters in the lineup.

The everyday lineup 1-9.

LF Pierre
SS Ramirez
1B Dunn
CF Rios
DH Thome
RF Quentin
2B Beckham
C Pierzynski
3B Morel

You would also have a bunch of money left over to help address the bullpen.

DumpJerry
12-04-2010, 10:26 PM
Adam Dunn.

Sign Thome for a year as a stopgap to DH and hopefully Viciedo develops a bit further into the guy for the job at 1B, allowing Dunn to DH at the end of the year and next year. Defense suffers a bit, but Thome isn't a bad guy to bring back as a DH. He was still productive last year and would come cheap, so the Sox can address some other needs. You have two left handed power hitters in the lineup.

The everyday lineup 1-9.

LF Pierre
SS Ramirez
1B Dunn
CF Rios
DH Thome
RF Quentin
2B Beckham
C Pierzynski
3B Morel

You would also have a bunch of money left over to help address the bullpen.
No. Dunn is Thome minus 9 years. Thome did not play much in the first half of last season. It took a Morneau concussion to get him regular playing time. After full time duty in July and August, his back started bothering him in September and he had to sit out a few games. He may be a great guy and all, but he is not a full-season player any more.

stevemcstud
12-04-2010, 10:32 PM
No. Dunn is Thome minus 9 years. Thome did not play much in the first half of last season. It took a Morneau concussion to get him regular playing time. After full time duty in July and August, his back started bothering him in September and he had to sit out a few games. He may be a great guy and all, but he is not a full-season player any more.

Thome only played in 108 games and still knocked in 25 HR. If he does that for us and we have Teahen occasionally fill in for him at DH and we end up with 35 HR from our DH spot I would have no problem with that.

MARTINMVP
12-04-2010, 10:33 PM
I heard "Rock" on the Score tonight suggest that the Sox should move Flowers to 1B. I'll admit, first time I ever heard anyone suggest that. Not sure I agree with it.

DirtySox
12-04-2010, 10:37 PM
I heard "Rock" on the Score tonight suggest that the Sox should move Flowers to 1B. I'll admit, first time I ever heard anyone suggest that. Not sure I agree with it.

Flowers has to show he can hit in AAA before anyone considers him for 1B.

soltrain21
12-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Derrick Lee.

DumpJerry
12-04-2010, 10:42 PM
Thome only played in 108 games and still knocked in 25 HR. If he does that for us and we have Teahen occasionally fill in for him at DH and we end up with 35 HR from our DH spot I would have no problem with that.
Thome's durability is suspect. If you sign him now, you will regret it in June or whenever he goes on a repeated 15 day DL and the FA you could have signed today is no longer available.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested a right handed hitter to complement Dunn-Jermaine Dye. Remember him? Before people start to jump on this half-hearted suggestion, let me say he makes as much sense as Thome.

soltrain21
12-04-2010, 10:43 PM
Thome's durability is suspect. If you sign him now, you will regret it in June or whenever he goes on a repeated 15 day DL and the FA you could have signed today is no longer available.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested a right handed hitter to complement Dunn-Jermaine Dye. Remember him? Before people start to jump on this half-hearted suggestion, let me say he makes as much sense as Thome.

I really want Brian Duabach back.

asindc
12-04-2010, 10:55 PM
Thome's durability is suspect. If you sign him now, you will regret it in June or whenever he goes on a repeated 15 day DL and the FA you could have signed today is no longer available.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested a right handed hitter to complement Dunn-Jermaine Dye. Remember him? Before people start to jump on this half-hearted suggestion, let me say he makes as much sense as Thome.

Very much true. I'd bet the money in my pocket that Minny's brass reacted to Thome's performance last year with, "Damn, didn't know he had that much left! Let's take it and not double down on that ($1.5 million) bet."

Rockabilly
12-04-2010, 11:26 PM
Actually I would play Viciedo at 1B and use Konerko money on Beltre

14konerko
12-04-2010, 11:36 PM
Jermaine Dye!

JermaineDye05
12-04-2010, 11:38 PM
Jermaine Dye!

I've never understood why so many people wanted to put JD at first. He played 1 game there in 2005.

Zisk77
12-04-2010, 11:55 PM
I've never understood why so many people wanted to put JD at first. He played 1 game there in 2005.

He also played 1 game at ss, lets move Alexie to 1b!:redneck

Lip Man 1
12-05-2010, 12:18 AM
Adam LaRoche.

Lip

russ99
12-05-2010, 10:09 AM
I heard "Rock" on the Score tonight suggest that the Sox should move Flowers to 1B. I'll admit, first time I ever heard anyone suggest that. Not sure I agree with it.

That's been out there for a while. The assumption I've heard was that Flowers' skills as catcher wouldn't be good enough at the big league level, so he'd need to move to 1B or DH to get his bat in the lineup.

Flowers needs to have to have a heck of a first half in Charlotte before anyone pencils him into a big-league roster spot.

As for Paul, if he doesn't come back (IMO it's sounding like Paul may be 60-40 against) then I'd prefer Dunn at 1B, Quentin at DH where he has a less chance of injury, and go after a decent right-handed RBI guy at RF.

Werth is probably looking for too much to fit the bill, but there has to be some decent options out there, even without trading big league talent for a guy like Rasmus. If Kenny's serious about keep Carlos in the outfield, I'd prefer Pena for 1B or Guerrero at DH.

balke
12-05-2010, 11:05 AM
If Konerko doesn't re-sign, Dunn will probably end up playing first base.

Haha and the Sox will be beyond terrible.

Sox had defense and power at 1B last year. Putting Viciedo or Dunn there makes the Sox significantly worse. Dunn should've only been purchased with the understanding that he's an OFer who plays 1B on Sunday and DH on occasion. If Dunn is at 1B - I'm ready for a rebuild.

balke
12-05-2010, 11:10 AM
I've never understood why so many people wanted to put JD at first. He played 1 game there in 2005.

I think because he had the size/athleticism/bat. Plus I think he played 1B before he was a pro IRCC. Couldn't be worse with the glove at 1B than Dunn.

A. Cavatica
12-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Actually I would play Viciedo at 1B and use Konerko money on Beltre

Yes. Viciedo at 1B, the Konerko money elsewhere (not necessarily Beltre).

TDog
12-05-2010, 12:01 PM
Haha and the Sox will be beyond terrible.

Sox had defense and power at 1B last year. Putting Viciedo or Dunn there makes the Sox significantly worse. Dunn should've only been purchased with the understanding that he's an OFer who plays 1B on Sunday and DH on occasion. If Dunn is at 1B - I'm ready for a rebuild.

Right now the Sox are pursuing a first baseman in looking to re-sign Konerko, with whom they already have a relationsip. If they don't sign Konerko, I don't know that they will sign a first baseman even if they want to. A contract requires a meeting of the mind between two parties. Planning to sign a first baseman does not mean the White Sox will sign a first baseman. Going into the 2008 season, the Sox were looking for a centerfielder. They couldn't sign Hunter. They couldn't sign Rowand. They ended up trading for Swisher.

The White Sox just signed a first baseman. Fans assume they will sign another. But if they don't sign Konerko, they still have the first baseman they just signed as well as Teahen, who apparently is being displaced at third. Then there is Viciedo. Either Viciedo or Teahen could play first, or they could rotate at DH if the Sox don't sign Konerko. Another possibility is that the White Sox could trade for a first baseman who isn't a free agent.

If the Sox don't sign Konerko (and it won't be because they are cheap) I don't see them signing another first baseman, but addressing other concerns. And fans will complain they are cheap as they end up with less offense and defense at first than they had last year.

Signing Dunn doesn't make the White Sox better. Signing Dunn and Konerko, however, would.

balke
12-05-2010, 12:10 PM
Signing Dunn doesn't make the White Sox better. Signing Dunn and Konerko, however, would.

Yeah I agree. I just don't want Dunn as an everyday 1Bman. He needs to just realize he's a natural born DH. He'll still make money - he's a huge LH bat that can play 1B or the outfield on occasion.

I wouldn't be too opposed to Viciedo at 1B - but I don't think his defense would be that much better than Dunn's. I'm not sold on Viciedo as a hitter either at this point - but if Viciedo/Dunn at 1B means a good 3Bman on the team I'd be happier I guess. Still have to see how this offseason plays out.

I'd like to see a full season of Dunn/Konerko or Dlee or Pena at 1B. Basically I just want a solid glove at 1B and Dunn at DH.

asindc
12-05-2010, 12:14 PM
Right now the Sox are pursuing a first baseman in looking to re-sign Konerko, with whom they already have a relationsip. If they don't sign Konerko, I don't know that they will sign a first baseman even if they want to. A contract requires a meeting of the mind between two parties. Planning to sign a first baseman does not mean the White Sox will sign a first baseman. Going into the 2008 season, the Sox were looking for a centerfielder. They couldn't sign Hunter. They couldn't sign Rowand. They ended up trading for Swisher.

The White Sox just signed a first baseman. Fans assume they will sign another. But if they don't sign Konerko, they still have the first baseman they just signed as well as Teahen, who apparently is being displaced at third. Then there is Viciedo. Either Viciedo or Teahen could play first, or they could rotate at DH if the Sox don't sign Konerko. Another possibility is that the White Sox could trade for a first baseman who isn't a free agent.

If the Sox don't sign Konerko (and it won't be because they are cheap) I don't see them signing another first baseman, but addressing other concerns. And fans will complain they are cheap as they end up with less offense and defense at first than they had last year.

Signing Dunn doesn't make the White Sox better. Signing Dunn and Konerko, however, would.

After reading your post, I couldn't help but notice that it would be no less true if the Sox had already signed Konerko instead of Dunn, and you had written this:



Right now the Sox are pursuing a DH/first baseman in looking to sign Dunn, with whom they don't have a relationship. If they don't sign Dunn , I don't know that they will sign a first baseman even if they want to. A contract requires a meeting of the mind between two parties. Planning to sign a DH/first baseman does not mean the White Sox will sign a DH/first baseman. Going into the 2008 season, the Sox were looking for a centerfielder. They couldn't sign Hunter. They couldn't sign Rowand. They ended up trading for Swisher.

The White Sox just signed a first baseman. Fans assume they will sign another. But if they don't sign Dunn, they still have the first baseman they just signed as well as Teahen, who apparently is being displaced at third. Then there is Viciedo. Either Viciedo or Teahen could play first, or they could rotate at DH if the Sox don't sign Dunn. Another possibility is that the White Sox could trade for a first baseman who isn't a free agent.

If the Sox don't sign Dunn (and it won't be because they are cheap) I don't see them signing another first baseman, but addressing other concerns. And fans will complain they are cheap as they end up with the same offense and defense at first as they had last year.

Signing Konerko doesn't make the White Sox better. Signing Konerko and Dunn, however, would.



I understand that you are not impressed with Dunn (especially for the money), but I would think you could understand why most of us are pleased that KW has accomplished half of what you say would make the White Sox better.

TDog
12-05-2010, 01:26 PM
After reading your post, I couldn't help but notice that it would be no less true if the Sox had already signed Konerko instead of Dunn, ...

I understand that you are not impressed with Dunn (especially for the money), but I would think you could understand why most of us are pleased that KW has accomplished half of what you say would make the White Sox better.


If the Sox had re-signed Konerko, they would be where they were last year. It wouldn't be an improvement. The same applies to just signing Dunn. If the Sox end up going with Dunn, Teahen or Viciedo at first next season, and that is a very real possibility despite Williams intentions, fans won't be excited at all.

If signing Dunn leads to the White Sox re-signing Konerko, I will be excited. That could be a very strong lineup, especially if Quentin comes back strong following Dunn in the order. But the fact that many people here expect him to be a solid No. 3 hitter for an improved offense while hitting in the .260s and striking out more than 190 times (assuming he doesn't have trouble adjusting to the American League and DHing and his numbers fall off), shows that people are expecting too much from him.

Nellie_Fox
12-05-2010, 11:47 PM
Yes. Viciedo at 1B,Expect Borchardian numbers.

asindc
12-05-2010, 11:54 PM
If the Sox had re-signed Konerko, they would be where they were last year. It wouldn't be an improvement. The same applies to just signing Dunn. If the Sox end up going with Dunn, Teahen or Viciedo at first next season, and that is a very real possibility despite Williams intentions, fans won't be excited at all.

If signing Dunn leads to the White Sox re-signing Konerko, I will be excited. That could be a very strong lineup, especially if Quentin comes back strong following Dunn in the order. But the fact that many people here expect him to be a solid No. 3 hitter for an improved offense while hitting in the .260s and striking out more than 190 times (assuming he doesn't have trouble adjusting to the American League and DHing and his numbers fall off), shows that people are expecting too much from him.

I think most people here expect Dunn to bat cleanup or #5.

Foulke You
12-06-2010, 12:49 AM
Expect Borchardian numbers.
Too small a sample size right now. However, I could certainly see Viciedo going the Borchard route if he doesn't learn how to be more selective at the plate. From what I remember, Borchard never seemed to be able to catch up to an MLB fastball very well. Viciedo can hit the fastball, he just gets himself out all the time swinging at...well...everything! If the Sox could teach Dayan a shred of patience, he could be another Carlos Lee. I also haven't seen enough of him at 1B to know if he'd be another Adam Dunn on defense. For me, Viciedo is too big a question mark to be a starter if you plan on contending in 2011.

Foulke You
12-06-2010, 01:06 AM
Adam LaRoche.

Lip

LaRoche's glove and bat are good but don't you think he might make us too left handed heavy? If we start AJ, LaRoche, Dunn, and Pierre, I think it could make us vulnerable to tough left handers like Liriano. It would also mean that all three of our rostered 1B (Dunn, LaRoche, and Teahen) would be left handed. Throw in a Vizquel start here and there (who is worthless batting right handed) and our lineup becomes even more vulnerable to left handers.

Derrick Lee.
Derrek Lee seems to be the best fit to me. Lee's overall career numbers are similar to Paulie's, he would fill in some right handed pop, plays a very good 1B, good doubles hitter, good clubhouse guy, and would likely cost less years and salary than Konerko. Paulie is my first choice, but Lee would be a solid replacement.

Lee's career #s:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5775/career;_ylt=Avy2BvczmfYH4bg7iRnaIauFCLcF

trilobite_hives
12-06-2010, 08:42 AM
Actually I would play Viciedo at 1B and use Konerko money on Beltre

I think I like this idea best. Let's just keep our fingers crossed, because the only idea I like better would be to re-sign Paul.

khan
12-06-2010, 10:31 AM
Eh, I'm not all that concerned with finding a guy to play the easiest defensive position on the field.

I'm more concerned about finding a heart of the order RH hitter to replace Konerko's role on that side of the ledger.

At the same time, I'd like to have an actual RF that can move his feet, catch the ball, make all of the throws, oh yeah: And not get injured at the drop of the hat, while providing a >.850 or so OPS.

Finding the formerly-missing LH bat was the bigger issue, IMO, as there are a lot fewer of them out there. Finding a suitable RH bat should prove easier, IMO. Since 1st is the easiest position to play defensively, while I'd rather have a good glove there, I wouldn't mind finding a decent RF instead.

slavko
12-06-2010, 10:35 AM
Viciedo playing 1B against lefties frees up Konerko's $$$ for our other holes. If you think he's no good, trade him now to fill holes, before everybody else agrees with you. It sounds like most of you have given up on him.

russ99
12-06-2010, 10:36 AM
Eh, I'm not all that concerned with finding a guy to play the easiest defensive position on the field.

I'm more concerned about finding a heart of the order RH hitter to replace Konerko's role on that side of the ledger.

At the same time, I'd like to have an actual RF that can move his feet, catch the ball, make all of the throws, oh yeah: And not get injured at the drop of the hat, while providing a >.850 or so OPS.

Finding the formerly-missing LH bat was the bigger issue, IMO, as there are a lot fewer of them out there. Finding a suitable RH bat should prove easier, IMO. Since 1st is the easiest position to play defensively, while I'd rather have a good glove there, I wouldn't mind finding a decent RF instead.

Good post, and I agree, RF needs to be addressed at some point.

Those who think good defense at 1B is essential should understand that there's not much difference between Konerko and Dunn.

Dunn has more range, Konerko is better with throws in the dirt. If we get Paul back, he's probably at 1B for another year or two but Dunn's still going to play there, get used to it.

doublem23
12-06-2010, 11:03 AM
Viciedo playing 1B against lefties frees up Konerko's $$$ for our other holes. If you think he's no good, trade him now to fill holes, before everybody else agrees with you. It sounds like most of you have given up on him.

It is entirely possible to believe that Viciedo may not be ready to play in the Majors that much in 2011, but he may be a good player down the line. Just because you don't want him playing everyday right now doesn't mean you're ready to give up on him.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2010, 11:06 AM
It is entirely possible to believe that Viciedo may not be ready to play in the Majors that much in 2011, but he may be a good player down the line. Just because you don't want him playing everyday right now doesn't mean you're ready to give up on him.Exactly. I haven't "given up on him." I just don't think he's yet shown a thing that indicates he's ready to be a contributor on a major-league roster.

Why does the internet always seem to devolve into "all or nothing" arguments? Either you want Viciedo playing now or you've given up on him? There's a HUGE area between those two concepts.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2010, 11:19 AM
Foulke:

If memory serves the Sox are already behind the eight ball with guys like Liriano anyway so getting another lefty in the lineup probably doesn't change things one way or another.

If they don't sign PK, in my opinion he's the best option out there and that should be all that matters.

Lip

spawn
12-06-2010, 11:21 AM
Exactly. I haven't "given up on him." I just don't think he's yet shown a thing that indicates he's ready to be a contributor on a major-league roster.

Why does the internet always seem to devolve into "all or nothing" arguments? Either you want Viciedo playing now or you've given up on him? There's a HUGE area between those two concepts.

Well said. Regarding Viciedo, I also don't think he's ready to be in the everyday lineup just yet.

gobears1987
12-06-2010, 11:35 AM
Well said. Regarding Viciedo, I also don't think he's ready to be in the everyday lineup just yet.

Unless we're filling out Charlotte's line-up. He can (and should) be taking the field there every day. He needs to work on his glove and his ability to take a pitch. He's still young and at an age where his game is clearly developing. He's 21 and most prospects don't break the majors until 23 or 24 IIRC.

TheVulture
12-06-2010, 09:56 PM
No. Dunn is Thome minus 9 years. .

Dunn is nowhere near the hitter Jim Thome was nine years ago, let's not kid ourselves.

trilobite_hives
12-07-2010, 08:31 AM
Dunn is nowhere near the hitter Jim Thome was nine years ago, let's not kid ourselves.

14 OPS+ points separate the two over their careers. Dunn is getting ready to spend 4 years hitting in a bandbox at, coincidentally, the same age Thome had his monster years. I'm not saying Dunn is Thome in his prime, but he's really not that far off either.

LoveYourSuit
12-07-2010, 08:56 AM
Dunn is nowhere near the hitter Jim Thome was nine years ago, let's not kid ourselves.


Closer than you think.

nug0hs
12-07-2010, 09:34 AM
If Konerko doesn't re-sign, Dunn will probably end up playing first base.

This is the answer. Not a very good one, but I'd consider it the highest possibility.

Boondock Saint
12-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Closer than you think.

Not quite. Dunn is impressive, but Thome was pretty incredible back then. Hard to argue against a .302 BA, 52 HR's, 118 RBI, 122 BB, and an OPS over 1.000.

LoveYourSuit
12-07-2010, 10:48 AM
Not quite. Dunn is impressive, but Thome was pretty incredible back then. Hard to argue against a .302 BA, 52 HR's, 118 RBI, 122 BB, and an OPS over 1.000.


Not accusing Thome of anything, but that era sure had some inflated stats across the entire league.

I think Dunn's power numbers in this current era (although that much lower) is as impressive as what Thome did back during the juiced ball/bodies era.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2010, 10:51 AM
Not accusing Thome of anything, but that era sure had some inflated stats across the entire league.

I think Dunn's power numbers in this current era (although that much lower) is as impressive as what Thome did back during the juiced ball/bodies era.Either you ARE accusing Thome of juicing, or you're saying that his numbers were inflated by others using. Sort of like a "contact high?"

DonnieDarko
12-07-2010, 11:15 AM
With how prevalent PEDs were (and probably still are), it is only fair to assume that inflated power numbers like that leads one to believe that PEDs were involved in their success. Call it paranoia, call it accusing without evidence, whatever. But that's the truth as far as I see it.

Baseball brought this upon itself, and has no one to blame but itself for it. Hey, I like Thome too. I hope that he didn't do PEDs. But it sure as hell wouldn't surprise me if it's revealed that he in fact did PEDs during those monster years of his.

trilobite_hives
12-07-2010, 11:15 AM
Not quite. Dunn is impressive, but Thome was pretty incredible back then. Hard to argue against a .302 BA, 52 HR's, 118 RBI, 122 BB, and an OPS over 1.000.

Other than the BA, I don't see why Dunn wouldn't be able to put up numbers like that during his stay in Chicago.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2010, 11:17 AM
With how prevalent PEDs were (and probably still are), it is only fair to assume that inflated power numbers like that leads one to believe that PEDs were involved in their success. Call it paranoia, call it accusing without evidence, whatever. But that's the truth as far as I see it.

Baseball brought this upon itself, and has no one to blame but itself for it.That may well be, but what I was addressing was saying "I'm not accusing Thome of anything" and then making a statement that either accuses him of something, or else makes no sense.

DonnieDarko
12-07-2010, 11:18 AM
That may well be, but what I was addressing was saying "I'm not accusing Thome of anything" and then making a statement that either accuses him of something, or else makes no sense.

Ah. My bad, then. Guess that I misread the posts. >_>

LoveYourSuit
12-07-2010, 01:10 PM
That may well be, but what I was addressing was saying "I'm not accusing Thome of anything" and then making a statement that either accuses him of something, or else makes no sense.


I did not accuse Thome of anything. I did however accuse the era in which he was great at.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2010, 01:12 PM
I did not accuse Thome of anything. I did however accuse the era in which he was great at.If you're not accusing him of anything, then the era in which he played has absolutely nothing to do with the numbers he put up. So, why did you raise the issue? Other guys doing steroids would not make Thome hit more home runs. In fact, it would work against him, because he'd be batting against pitchers who were on PED.

fram40
12-07-2010, 01:37 PM
If you're not accusing him of anything, then the era in which he played has absolutely nothing to do with the numbers he put up. So, why did you raise the issue? Other guys doing steroids would not make Thome hit more home runs. In fact, it would work against him, because he'd be batting against pitchers who were on PED.

Why does Thome get a pass on this issue? Why is he not tainted by association as so many others seemingly have been accused?

Consider - he played with two proven cheaters in Cleveland - Albert Belle (corked bat) and Manny (failed drug test).

I don't know if Thome is guilty or not. (I doubt it. In fact, I'd be shocked if he used) But I don't know about so many others who have been tainted by association. Just wondering why.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Why does Thome get a pass on this issue? Why is he not tainted by association as so many others seemingly have been accused?

Consider - he played with two proven cheaters in Cleveland - Albert Belle (corked bat) and Manny (failed drug test).

I don't know if Thome is guilty or not. (I doubt it. In fact, I'd be shocked if he used) But I don't know about so many others who have been tainted by association. Just wondering why.I didn't say he does. All I was saying is, don't say "I'm not accusing him of anything, but..." and then make a statement that cannot be taken any other way other than an accusation if it is to make sense.

fram40
12-07-2010, 02:27 PM
I didn't say he does. All I was saying is, don't say "I'm not accusing him of anything, but..." and then make a statement that cannot be taken any other way other than an accusation if it is to make sense.

(thread hijack) I have never seen anyone accuse Thome of steroids. No where. I am asking the question why? Why is Thome given a pass on the whole PED issue, given his teammates over the years.

I said earlier I would be shocked if Thome had used. But I would be equally shocked to find out that those Indian teams of the mid/late '90s were not awash in PEDs. So if I assume the team was guilty, why do I assume one individual is not? I assume the Indians were cheating throughout the '90s and Thome awas a huge part of that team

It seems as if everyone agrees with me - at least as far as Thome's integrity is concerned. I have never seen anyone ever accuse him - not even of being associated with cheating. Nor do I believe he was.

TDog
12-07-2010, 02:33 PM
I didn't say he does. All I was saying is, don't say "I'm not accusing him of anything, but..." and then make a statement that cannot be taken any other way other than an accusation if it is to make sense.

Actually, if you are saying a players' numbers are not as impressive because he played in an era where performance enhancing drugs were prevalent, you are accusing his numbers of being inflated by performing enhancing drugs. If you believe he was clean, you would consider his numbers more impressive because he was facing pitchers who were cheating and keeping up statisitcally wth hitters who were cheating.

It isn't as if the pitchers were tired out by the cheaters when Jim Thome or Frank Thomas came to bat.

cards press box
12-07-2010, 02:35 PM
This is the answer. Not a very good one, but I'd consider it the highest possibility.

If PK signs elsewhere, I think that the Sox will sign one of the free agent 1B out there, such as Carlos Pena, Adam LaRoche or Derek Lee. Both Pena and LaRoche are left handed hitters and would bring some balance to the Sox lineup. Pena is also a terrific fielder. Having said all that, D. Lee is a great fielder, too, and, if healthy, could have a fine season.

The Sox would then take the difference in what it cost to sign Pena, LaRoche or D. Lee and what it would have cost to sign PK and apply the savings toward acquiring relief pitchers.

JermaineDye05
12-07-2010, 06:46 PM
Thanks for stealing my thread, Scott Merkin.

Twitter question of the night: If Paul Konerko does not return to the White Sox, who do you want at first base for the team? half a minute ago (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/12306895947702273) via web
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/934235221/Maria2_bigger.jpg (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin)
scottmerkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin)
Scott Merkin

Gammons Peter
12-07-2010, 07:09 PM
how much does Adrian Beltre want?

DirtySox
12-07-2010, 07:11 PM
how much does adrian beltre want?

5/90

Gammons Peter
12-07-2010, 07:17 PM
holy #$%@ ...really?

DirtySox
12-07-2010, 07:23 PM
holy #$%@ ...really?

Yes. His agent is using Torii Hunter's deal as a comparable.

JermaineDye05
12-07-2010, 07:24 PM
holy #$%@ ...really?

He also wants to stay in Boston, but that ain't happening.

chisoxlove
12-07-2010, 07:33 PM
Derrek Lee seems to be the best fit to me. Lee's overall career numbers are similar to Paulie's, he would fill in some right handed pop, plays a very good 1B, good doubles hitter, good clubhouse guy, and would likely cost less years and salary than Konerko. Paulie is my first choice, but Lee would be a solid replacement.



I agree completely...Great defense, solid OBP, and occasional power.

Plus, he got surgery this offseason, and I think that he'll have a bounceback year.

What type of contract do you thinkhe'll command?

Foulke You
12-07-2010, 11:29 PM
I agree completely...Great defense, solid OBP, and occasional power.

Plus, he got surgery this offseason, and I think that he'll have a bounceback year.

What type of contract do you thinkhe'll command?
I haven't heard any numbers thrown out in regards to Derrek Lee. I'm sure the Orioles will have some interest in Lee assuming they don't sign Paulie. The A's and Rockies have rumored to be in the market for power hitting 1B as well since both teams made a play for Berkman. I agree with you that Lee certainly could have a bounce back year. I think Lee's 2010 mediocre campaign will lower his price a bit but my opinion is that he will likely command at least $7-$9 million per year for 2 or 3 years. Another thing to consider is that Lee might take less money to come back to Chicago where I believe he and his family still live and own a house. Lee expressed regret and initially balked at leaving his family last year when the Cubs tried to trade him to the Angels.

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2010, 08:30 AM
In the back of my mind here is something about PK not wanting to come back, the vibes would have been better at seasons end but his statements were vague and for some reason I think he wants to go elsewhere. At 35 years old I say go and we can go with Lee for 2 years and groom Viciedo to take over then. To tell you the truth PK is pissing me off what with AJ and Dunn making money concessions to bring PK back and meanwhile his agent and him are playing hardball.

Boondock Saint
12-08-2010, 08:41 AM
In the back of my mind here is something about PK not wanting to come back, the vibes would have been better at seasons end but his statements were vague and for some reason I think he wants to go elsewhere. At 35 years old I say go and we can go with Lee for 2 years and groom Viciedo to take over then. To tell you the truth PK is pissing me off what with AJ and Dunn making money concessions to bring PK back and meanwhile his agent and him are playing hardball.

Konerko didn't ask them to do that. If he had, I would feel differently.

doublem23
12-08-2010, 09:21 AM
Konerko didn't ask them to do that. If he had, I would feel differently.

Yeah, I would bet the Sox would have tried to defer money on those deals anyway, even if PK had already jumped ship to Arizona or Texas or whatever. If the final payroll of this team is going to be in the $110 M range, then we're still in rough shape with payroll flexibility. It was just a good move by KW no matter what. If we use that extra cash to sign Paulie, all the better.

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2010, 09:24 AM
Konerko didn't ask them to do that. If he had, I would feel differently.

I know he didn't but it has to carry some weight that guys are willing to make concessions to keep you with the team.

BringHomeDaBacon
12-08-2010, 09:33 AM
I know he didn't but it has to carry some weight that guys are willing to make concessions to keep you with the team.

This kind of thinking is nonsense. This is likely the last big contract of his career, he would be foolish to bother with such ancillary concerns.

Elgin Sox Fan
12-08-2010, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2659671#post2659671)
In the back of my mind here is something about PK not wanting to come back, the vibes would have been better at seasons end but his statements were vague and for some reason I think he wants to go elsewhere. At 35 years old I say go and we can go with Lee for 2 years and groom Viciedo to take over then. To tell you the truth PK is pissing me off what with AJ and Dunn making money concessions to bring PK back and meanwhile his agent and him are playing hardball.

I agree with Little Nell. How millions are enough? There is not a Sox fan out there that doesn't want PK back. Even my wife who can't stand baseball knows who "Paulie" is and better still what he means to this team! I have man love for him but if he walks away for a few dollars that won't sit well with most. I understand the being closer to the family stuff to a degree but c'mon how many players get their name chanted by thousands of fans almost every time they come to bat. That has to be an awesome feeling deep inside. Even away games you hear it.

If they are just playing the negotiation game and both sides are REALLY trying to come together, then OK, that's business and forget the rant but if not....C'MON PAULIE SIGN NOW!

DumpJerry
12-08-2010, 09:55 AM
Not many reasons to keep discussing this topic, is there?