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Fenway
11-30-2010, 06:27 PM
Well, the time has come. Every off season about this time, the HOF ballot comes out and provides us with mucho opportunities to bloviate (which is what we do, y'know) and keep us busy through this part of the Hot Stove League as we make our way to Spring Training, about 10 weeks hence.I do not see any slam dunks on this list, which leads me to believe that this will be a year when another player enters the HOF wing that enshrines not the legendary, but the 'really really good' players. By that I mean there are no players who deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Cobb, Williams and Mays.

Roberto Alomar, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Lenny Harris, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Barry Larkin, Al Leiter, Edgar Martinez, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Raul Mondesi, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Kirk Rueter, Benito Santiago, Lee Smith, B.J. Surhoff, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker

Let the games begin.

A. Cavatica
11-30-2010, 06:58 PM
Roberto Alomar, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Lenny Harris, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Barry Larkin, Al Leiter, Edgar Martinez, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Raul Mondesi, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Kirk Rueter, Benito Santiago, Lee Smith, B.J. Surhoff, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker

Let the games begin.

Bagwell's numbers are not that far from Frank's. He'll get in. And Alomar, though maybe not on the first ballot.

Strong cases can be made for many of the others, but that could be it for this year.

DumpJerry
11-30-2010, 07:06 PM
Roberto Alomar, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Lenny Harris, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Barry Larkin, Al Leiter, Edgar Martinez, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Raul Mondesi, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Kirk Rueter, Benito Santiago, Lee Smith, B.J. Surhoff, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker

Let the games begin.
Best chances=Edgar Martinez, MGriff, Mattingly, and Jack Morris.
Close to best chances=Dave Parker Blyleven (who is become Santo-like in his pursuit of the HoF).

McGwire and Palmeiro-----dream on.

doublem23
11-30-2010, 08:23 PM
Blyleven's in this year, as I believe it is his last year on the ballot, and he had something like 74% last year.

Alomar should be in, too. He's only arguably the greatest 2B in history, the fact that he didn't get in on the 1st ballot is a joke. OH NO, HE LOST HIS COOL THAT ONE TIME. Didn't know the HOF was nothing but a bunch of gentlemen and scholars.

asindc
11-30-2010, 08:30 PM
It is also a joke that Tim Raines does not get more consideration.

sox1970
11-30-2010, 08:36 PM
This list is the toughest I've seen, and we have the steroid era to thank for it. There are too many guys on that list that have failed tests, or don't pass my eye test.

I'd put Blyleven in. Alomar and Larkin will get in too. Jack Morris should, but won't. He's ramping up though. He's another Jim Rice. He always belonged, but the writers hold grudges and are making him wait until the end of his eligibility.

Daver
11-30-2010, 09:06 PM
Harold baines will be one of the few players with over 1500 RBI's not to make the HoF.

stevemcstud
11-30-2010, 09:20 PM
Best chances=Edgar Martinez, MGriff, Mattingly, and Jack Morris.
Close to best chances=Dave Parker Blyleven (who is become Santo-like in his pursuit of the HoF).

McGwire and Palmeiro-----dream on.

Mattingly?

The dude has less than 225 HR and 1,100 RBI, and he was a 1B. He had some great seasons but not a HOF player. If he is in Konerko is a lock.

MeteorsSox4367
11-30-2010, 09:25 PM
Bobby Higginson? Is this the same Bobby Higginson whom I believe was released by Detroit? Him?

And Lenny Harris? Is there a special portion of the HOF dedicated to pinch-hitters and reserve infielders?

I'd love to see Baines and Murphy, but I'm not sure they'll get there.

sox1970
11-30-2010, 09:25 PM
Harold Baines will be one of the few players with over 1500 RBI's not to make the HoF.

It is pretty crazy how far up the all-time hits and RBI list he is, but you can make a strong argument that he doesn't belong.

He didn't have an MVP season...he never even had a top-5 MVP season.
He only led the league in one offensive category (slugging) once.
He wasn't a lifetime .300 hitter.
He didn't get to 3000 hits.
He didn't hit 400 homers.

If Baines gets in, it really opens up a lot of guys that probably should too--Dave Parker and Steve Garvey come to mind. It's a tough call.

russ99
11-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Jeff Bagwell and Edgar Martinez are going to be a good indicator on how good Frank's chances are for first ballot.

Bagwell (born on the same day as Frank) has fairly similar numbers and an MVP award, while playing in the pitcher-friendly Astrodome for more than half his career.

Edgar should also have the numbers, but his chances could be hurt by all the time he played DH.

Daver
11-30-2010, 09:58 PM
It is pretty crazy how far up the all-time hits and RBI list he is, but you can make a strong argument that he doesn't belong.


I'm not really making the argument that he does.

Harold, like many that are already in the HoF, belongs in the Hall of Good and helped by longevity.

The baseball HoF has been a joke for many years, I hope it doesn't get compounded in a few years by not putting Frank Thomas in on the first ballot.

Fenway
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
Just saw this on a Red Sox board

I don't even care about the Hall of Fame anymore. It has become the "Hall of the Pretty Good" and not really the HOF. To me the HOF should be the elite of the very elite. It should be a very exclusive club. When we start talking Ron Santo and the like it is time say it really isn't the HOF. We put people in there because they had solid careers and not necessarily those that are super stars.

Brian26
11-30-2010, 11:12 PM
Harold baines will be one of the few players with over 1500 RBI's not to make the HoF.

McGriff is an interesting story too. Over 1500 rbi, and seven HRs short of 500.

Oblong
12-01-2010, 09:00 AM
Blyleven and Alomar will get in this year.

TDog
12-01-2010, 02:49 PM
Blyleven will get in this year. Harold Baines is more worthy of the Hall of Fame (although comparing the two is unfair because, essentially, one only played offense and one only played defense. But Tommy John is more worthy of the Hall of Fame than Blyleven. I wouldn't vote for Blyleven if I had a vote, but I've heard writers who said a few years ago they wouldn't vote for Blyleven say they will on this ballot.

Bagwell might get in. I don't think it's an indication of Frank Thomas' chance to get in on the first ballot (which I don't believe he will) because Bagwell didn't spend almost half his career as a designated hitter as Thomas did. If Baines had been an average outfielder the National League (his knee prevented him from moving laterally, which physically prevented him from playing defense after he worked to turn himself into an excellent right fielder), he might be in the Hall of Fame. Certainly he would get more serious consideration. If he had spent his entire career with the White Sox, even as a DH, he probably would be getting more respect.

The Hall of Fame isn't about numbers, of course. It's about something less tangible.

gobears1987
12-01-2010, 03:01 PM
The Hall of Fame seems to be turning into the "Hall of Very Good." It's a damn shame. my rule on the hall is that if you have to stop and think about a player, he shouldn't be in. By that example, Jim Rice sure shouldn't be in, and Baines shouldn't either. That's why the argument that Rice is in so Baines should be doesn't fly with me. Neither should be in so adding another doesn't correct a wrong; it just further dilutes the hall.

My example on not having to think about a player would be someone like Griffey. You don't even have to pause before you say yes. Ditto for guys like Ichiro (who will obviously make it 1st ballot when the time comes). I have to stop and think about guys likeBaines so the answer for me is no on that.

salty99
12-01-2010, 03:07 PM
The Hall of Fame seems to be turning into the "Hall of Very Good." .

That's already happened.

downstairs
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Just saw this on a Red Sox board

I don't even care about the Hall of Fame anymore. It has become the "Hall of the Pretty Good" and not really the HOF. To me the HOF should be the elite of the very elite. It should be a very exclusive club. When we start talking Ron Santo and the like it is time say it really isn't the HOF. We put people in there because they had solid careers and not necessarily those that are super stars.

Hear, hear! 100% agreed, and indeed I also pay very little attention to the HoF anymore.

When I think of the HoF, I think of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams, etc. Legends.

We already have all-time leaderboards, MVP, all-star, and all sorts of other accolades to give the "very good" players. And that's all they deserve: stats, awards, stories for us to discuss and praise.

I always thought they should have two levels: a hall-of-fame with the legends... then some other place in the building where very good players get a poster, some text/stats, a photo, whatever. No problem with honoring Garvey, Rice, etc. in the HoF building without calling them a HoF'er.

wilburaga
12-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Blyleven and Alomar will get in this year.

That would be my prediction, too. Bagwell will probably miss becuase of the first ballot sticklers. I don't think anyone else has much of a chance.

downstairs
12-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Bert Blyleven has under 300 wins, and he's not that far above .500. No Cy Youngs. Was an all star all of two times. He played for mediocre teams more often than not, always in small markets.

All he has is his 3700 strikeouts- which is a lot. But I don't think its fair for him to get in on pretty much that cumulative stat alone.

Alomar, yes. Bagwell eventually but not this year. And I'd say "no" on everyone else.

Although I hate the 'roiders I do believe some of them belong. What happened happened, and by not voting them in, everyone is putting their head in the sand.

Nellie_Fox
12-01-2010, 04:22 PM
Although I hate the 'roiders I do believe some of them belong. What happened happened, and by not voting them in, everyone is putting their head in the sand.I disagree. I think the exact opposite is true. Voting FOR them is putting your head in the sand.

downstairs
12-01-2010, 05:27 PM
I disagree. I think the exact opposite is true. Voting FOR them is putting your head in the sand.

I think of it this way... if you can assume their numbers without 'roids would have been in anyway- vote them in.

Otherwise (as with Pete Rose), its like we're denying they exist. The HoF deserves to have them in, warts and all.

That's what I meant by "head in the sand".

TDog
12-01-2010, 06:20 PM
I think of it this way... if you can assume their numbers without 'roids would have been in anyway- vote them in.

Otherwise (as with Pete Rose), its like we're denying they exist. The HoF deserves to have them in, warts and all.

That's what I meant by "head in the sand".

The Hall of Fame isn't about numbers, and it certainly isn't about hypothetical numbers. "Assuming" numbers without 'roids (George Brett had to deal with hemorrhoids during his playing career -- one can only imagine how well he would have hit without them, but that that isn't the 'roids you're talking about) is ignoring the fact that they believed they needed 'roids.

Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame because he disgraced the game, his numbers notwithstanding. The performance enhancers disgraced the game, their actual or hypothetical numbers notwithstanding.

Daver
12-01-2010, 06:35 PM
I think of it this way... if you can assume their numbers without 'roids would have been in anyway- vote them in.

Otherwise (as with Pete Rose), its like we're denying they exist. The HoF deserves to have them in, warts and all.

That's what I meant by "head in the sand".

No one is denying Pete exists, he exists as someone that broke the cardinal rule of MLB, a rule that is mounted in every locker room in every stadium. He is a shining example of the consequences of one's own actions, the PED users will serve as shining examples of that just as well as Pete does, perhaps better since there are more of them.

The baseball HOF is not about numbers, if it was Don Drysdale would be on the outside looking in just like Billy Pierce is, as their numbers are very similar.

PalehosePlanet
12-01-2010, 07:02 PM
The Hall of Fame isn't about numbers, and it certainly isn't about hypothetical numbers. "Assuming" numbers without 'roids (George Brett had to deal with hemorrhoids during his playing career -- one can only imagine how well he would have hit without them, but that that isn't the 'roids you're talking about) is ignoring the fact that they believed they needed 'roids.

Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame because he disgraced the game, his numbers notwithstanding. The performance enhancers disgraced the game, their actual or hypothetical numbers notwithstanding.

100% in agreement.

Nightmare scenario: What happens if a player is elected to the HOF then afterward it is revealed with absolute proof that he was indeed a 'roider? Does he get his privlidges revoked and is kicked out of the HOF? Does he stay and thus open the door/argument for other 'roiders with gaudy numbers to get in? (E.G. This player is in so why not Palemeiro, he has better numbers, etc...)

LongLiveFisk
12-01-2010, 09:50 PM
I'd love to see Baines and Murphy, but I'm not sure they'll get there.

Me too. As long as it's lately been the "Hall of the Pretty Good", you'd think guys like these would have a definite shot. Someone mentioned having two tiers. I totally would love to see that but then there would still be some players people would argue over. It'll never be a perfect science.

soxinem1
12-01-2010, 11:18 PM
It is pretty crazy how far up the all-time hits and RBI list he is, but you can make a strong argument that he doesn't belong.

He didn't have an MVP season...he never even had a top-5 MVP season.
He only led the league in one offensive category (slugging) once.
He wasn't a lifetime .300 hitter.
He didn't get to 3000 hits.
He didn't hit 400 homers.

If Baines gets in, it really opens up a lot of guys that probably should too--Dave Parker and Steve Garvey come to mind. It's a tough call.

I agreed with that until Jim Rice was shoved in the HOF. After him, you might as well put Dale Murphy in as well as the others you mentioned.

gobears1987
12-02-2010, 04:31 AM
Best chances=Edgar Martinez, MGriff, Mattingly, and Jack Morris.
Close to best chances=Dave Parker Blyleven (who is become Santo-like in his pursuit of the HoF).

McGwire and Palmeiro-----dream on.

If McGriff gets in, then he has to be inducted with this cap.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WtEZG5bHlUA/RsQDzFoJ8JI/AAAAAAAAAbI/m0Ne3Aa2U0I/s400/fred.jpg

gobears1987
12-02-2010, 04:33 AM
This list is the toughest I've seen, and we have the steroid era to thank for it. There are too many guys on that list that have failed tests, or don't pass my eye test.

I'd put Blyleven in. Alomar and Larkin will get in too. Jack Morris should, but won't. He's ramping up though. He's another Jim Rice. He always belonged, but the writers hold grudges and are making him wait until the end of his eligibility.

Are you saying Jim Rice belongs? He's in the wrong hall. He has no business in Cooperstown and belongs in the Hall of Pretty Good.

Bob Roarman
12-03-2010, 07:53 AM
When some of you guys say "performance enhancers" are you including amphetamines too, and if so, how hard a line are you taking with that. I'm assuming not too hard at all, since just about everyone in the Hall of Fame has most likely used those. I'm not comparing these with steroids and/or HGH, but just curious as to how people are taking those PEDs into account as well.

g0g0
12-03-2010, 09:06 AM
I'm going with Harold Baines and Mark Grace as I do every year. But now that Santo has passed, I wonder if that will affect the veteran's committee any? I would never want him in on a 'pity' vote, but these types of things do sometimes make a difference on someone who's on the fence.

ChiWavDave
12-03-2010, 11:27 AM
Im probably biased. But I think the hall of fame should absolutely include someone who

Won 2 MVP
7x All Star
5x Gold Glove Winner
Led the league multiple times in HR and RBI's
Led the league over a 10 year period in HR and RBI
Was a 30/30 guy
Has the 11th longest games played streak in baseball history.

Not to mention was 100% steroid free and led a life that truly could be a role model for fans of all ages.

the roider age, and too many bad years at the end of his career (he'd be a lock if he went the Kirby Puckett route) has ruined his chances and for that I am most sad.

Dave

Fenway
12-22-2010, 08:28 AM
Normally I tend to ignore Dan Shaughnessy but he DOES have a vote and he explains it this morning

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2010/12/22/with_his_decisions_on_baseball_hall_of_fame_weight _is_lifted/?page=full

He voted for Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar, and Jack Morris