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DirtySox
11-29-2010, 04:51 PM
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jonmorosi (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi) Jon Morosi
Source confirms: Torrealba's deal with #Rangers (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Rangers) is $6.25M over two years. #Dallas (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Dallas) #Texas (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Texas) #MLB (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23MLB)
2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi/status/9377961941671936)



Another possible AJ suitor off the board.

TDog
11-29-2010, 05:02 PM
Another possible AJ suitor off the board.

The White Sox signed both Carlton Fisk and Jim Essian as free agent catchers in the same offseason.

DirtySox
11-29-2010, 05:03 PM
the white sox signed both carlton fisk and jim essian as free agent catchers in the same offseason.

k.

DirtySox
11-29-2010, 05:04 PM
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SI_JonHeyman (http://twitter.com/#%21/SI_JonHeyman) Jon Heyman
#chisox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23chisox) would happily take aj pierzynski back. they didnt offer arbitration because they prefer to cut his $6.75-mil salary
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/SI_JonHeyman/status/9381427187552256)

I'd like AJ back at no more than a year with an option. Hopefully at half as much money.

Steelrod
11-29-2010, 05:10 PM
The White Sox signed both Carlton Fisk and Jim Essian as free agent catchers in the same offseason.
One by each ownership group, 31 years ago.

Noneck
11-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Thats a lot on money for a guy that has only caught 100 games once in a 10 year career. AJ's stock may be higher than expected.

soltrain21
11-29-2010, 05:46 PM
One by each ownership group, 31 years ago.

But it's so relevant!

TDog
11-29-2010, 05:55 PM
One by each ownership group, 31 years ago.

Veeck had financial help from the owner who planned to move the Sox to Denver but never gained control of the team, certainly, and the Reinsdorf group signed the best available catcher when they got their opportunity.

The reason the observation is relevant is that teams need two catchers. It is not uncommon for teams to sign free agent catchers to play a backup role. Signing one catcher does not preclude the Rangers from signing another.

Zisk77
11-29-2010, 07:51 PM
Veeck had financial help from the owner who planned to move the Sox to Denver but never gained control of the team, certainly, and the Reinsdorf group signed the best available catcher when they got their opportunity.

The reason the observation is relevant is that teams need two catchers. It is not uncommon for teams to sign free agent catchers to play a backup role. Signing one catcher does not preclude the Rangers from signing another.

It probably does just that as Texas has financial problems.

TDog
11-29-2010, 10:13 PM
It probably does just that as Texas has financial problems.

If Pierzynski is as worthless as I've read he is at WSI, the point is moot because the Rangers weren't going to sign him anyway.

DirtySox
11-29-2010, 10:57 PM
If Pierzynski is as worthless as I've read he is at WSI, the point is moot because the Rangers weren't going to sign him anyway.

He clearly isn't worthless, but he is supremely replaceable. The pedestal some at WSI put him on is hilarious.

Hitmen77
11-30-2010, 08:02 AM
He clearly isn't worthless, but he is supremely replaceable. The pedestal some at WSI put him on is hilarious.

I don't have a problem with the Sox going with someone other than AJ next year. But, this is where I have a concern right now. Is he replaceable? If the Sox don't re-sign him then what other viable options are available for a starting C?

This is an honest question. I'm not suggesting I know one way or another that he's easily replaceable, but every time I ask this question on WSI I really don't get a response as to who the Sox would acquire to replace AJ.

Veeck had financial help from the owner who planned to move the Sox to Denver but never gained control of the team, certainly, and the Reinsdorf group signed the best available catcher when they got their opportunity.


Debartolo was planning to move the Sox to Denver?

russ99
11-30-2010, 08:33 AM
I don't have a problem with the Sox going with someone other than AJ next year. But, this is where I have a concern right now. Is he replaceable? If the Sox don't re-sign him then what other viable options are available for a starting C?

This is an honest question. I'm not suggesting I know one way or another that he's easily replaceable, but every time I ask this question on WSI I really don't get a response as to who the Sox would acquire to replace AJ.



I found a rumor on our usual site that the Sox want to bring back A.J., but at less than his $6.25M salary, which is likely why they declined arbitration.

The only other decent FA catcher that's out there is Olivo, and he has question marks too. On the trade market, good catchers are hard to acquire.

I think the Sox could be waiting on non-tender day since Russell Martin could be let go by the Dodgers, and if so he's at the top of the catcher list due to his youth and his solid seasons a few years ago.

If not, then it would come down to waiting out A.J. and/or Olivo to see which one takes the expected pay cut first.

Hopefully they don't cheap out with Flowers. If he's handed the job, it could be a really rough year.

asindc
11-30-2010, 08:40 AM
I found a rumor on our usual site that the Sox want to bring back A.J., but at less than his $6.25M salary, which is likely why they declined arbitration.

The only other decent FA catcher that's out there is Olivo, and he has question marks too. On the trade market, good catchers are hard to acquire.

I think the Sox could be waiting on non-tender day since Russell Martin could be let go by the Dodgers, and if so he's at the top of the catcher list due to his youth and his solid seasons a few years ago.

If not, then it would come down to waiting out A.J. and/or Olivo to see which one takes the expected pay cut first.

Hopefully they don't cheap out with Flowers. If he's handed the job, it could be a really rough year.

All of which means, to follow up on Hitmen's question, that AJ is not as "easily replaceable" as some have suggested here.

doublem23
11-30-2010, 08:52 AM
All of which means, to follow up on Hitmen's question, that AJ is not as "easily replaceable" as some have suggested here.

Yeah, where could we possibly find a double threat like Pierzynski, who can't hit or play defense?

asindc
11-30-2010, 08:58 AM
Yeah, where could we possibly find a double threat like Pierzynski, who can't hit or play defense?

Alright then, list the FA catchers whose track records suggest that they would provide the Sox with at least as much production as AJ. With each catcher you list, provide a reasonable speculative amount at which you think the player could be signed.

doublem23
11-30-2010, 09:20 AM
Alright then, list the FA catchers whose track records suggest that they would provide the Sox with at least as much production as AJ. With each catcher you list, provide a reasonable speculative amount at which you think the player could be signed.

Considering how bad AJ was last year, you could probably get equal production from a Castro/Lucy tandom, except without all the grindy helmet slamming.

You guys realize out of the 97 players in the AL last year who got 400+ PA, there were only like 20 less productive players than AJ (.688 OPS), right? And the vast majority of them were speedster IF and Juan Pierre, plus one other catcher, Kurt Suzuki, who plays in the least hitter-friendly park in baseball. Now, you could excuse this because AJ is a C and C is primarily a defensive position, but he's also well known as one as a mediocre defensive player, as well. Given the predicament we're in with our catching, if we're spending more than $5 M on the entire position, not just AJ, we're getting gipped, especially considering how many other problems there are on this roster.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2010, 11:14 AM
T-Dog:

Essian was signed (along with Ron LeFlore and a third free agent who's name escapes me right now, I think it was outfielder Jerry Turner) with money given to Veeck from Eddie DeBartolo who expected to get the team since he was the guy Veeck sold the club to.

The money was loaned to Veeck before the A.L. debated and eventually refused to allow the sale to go through. It was three million dollars if I remember correctly.

Lip

asindc
11-30-2010, 11:17 AM
Considering how bad AJ was last year, you could probably get equal production from a Castro/Lucy tandom, except without all the grindy helmet slamming.

You guys realize out of the 97 players in the AL last year who got 400+ PA, there were only like 20 less productive players than AJ (.688 OPS), right? And the vast majority of them were speedster IF and Juan Pierre, plus one other catcher, Kurt Suzuki, who plays in the least hitter-friendly park in baseball. Now, you could excuse this because AJ is a C and C is primarily a defensive position, but he's also well known as one as a mediocre defensive player, as well. Given the predicament we're in with our catching, if we're spending more than $5 M on the entire position, not just AJ, we're getting gipped, especially considering how many other problems there are on this roster.

The question (for me, at least) isn't how good AJ is, but how "easily replaceable" he is at or near his current salary.

KMcMahon817
11-30-2010, 12:49 PM
I found a rumor on our usual site that the Sox want to bring back A.J., but at less than his $6.25M salary, which is likely why they declined arbitration.

The only other decent FA catcher that's out there is Olivo, and he has question marks too. On the trade market, good catchers are hard to acquire.

I think the Sox could be waiting on non-tender day since Russell Martin could be let go by the Dodgers, and if so he's at the top of the catcher list due to his youth and his solid seasons a few years ago.

If not, then it would come down to waiting out A.J. and/or Olivo to see which one takes the expected pay cut first.

Hopefully they don't cheap out with Flowers. If he's handed the job, it could be a really rough year.

I would be all for Russell Martin. I would also be all for Ryan Doumit, whose named has been mentioned on here in the last few weeks as well.

Honestly, I don't dislike AJ. But at the same time, I really wouldn't be upset to see the SOX go elsewhere. The two mentioned above are probably the most available of the catchers I would actually be okay with starting 6 days a week for the SOX.

TDog
11-30-2010, 01:57 PM
...
Debartolo was planning to move the Sox to Denver?

I apologize for the hijack.

He's been dead for about 15 years, so any source on the matter is essentially heresay, but that is what I've always heard. That was what was believed by many in the West at the time.

While trying to buy the White Sox, he agreed to pay a financial penalty if he moved the team because at the time it was widely believed, based on comments he had made, that he wanted to move a team to Denver. Of course, the league would have to approve any such move. The only reason to include such a provision would relate to public relations in the community because it was so strongly believed he wanted to move the team. Baseball wouldn't demand such a thing to prevent him from moving a team when baseball had the power to prevent him from moving.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2010, 02:38 PM
With respect I've never heard of or been told in any interviews with those around the team at that time that DeBartolo was planning to move the club to Denver. In fact as a way to appease the other A.L. owners DeBartolo actually agreed to move some of his business offices to Chicago and to be in the city at least 20% of the year.

One of the "excuses" the league was sending out is that they were concerned that he would be an absentee owner.

Lip

SI1020
11-30-2010, 03:42 PM
We're getting our wires crossed here. Veeck entertained the idea of selling to oil man Marvin Davis, who expressed an interest in moving the team to Denver. This was before he settled on Edward J DeBartolo Sr. Of course that sale was never to be, the behind the scenes machinations of Bowie Kuhn left DeBartolo out, giving the Reinsdorf group a golden opportunity.

TDog
11-30-2010, 05:17 PM
We're getting our wires crossed here. Veeck entertained the idea of selling to oil man Marvin Davis, who expressed an interest in moving the team to Denver. This was before he settled on Edward J DeBartolo Sr. Of course that sale was never to be, the behind the scenes machinations of Bowie Kuhn left DeBartolo out, giving the Reinsdorf group a golden opportunity.

I'm not getting my wires crossed. DeBartolo's interest in the White Sox was widely believed to be moving it to another market, and Denver was considered the hottest market without a major league team at the time.

SI1020
11-30-2010, 08:50 PM
I'm not getting my wires crossed. DeBartolo's interest in the White Sox was widely believed to be moving it to another market, and Denver was considered the hottest market without a major league team at the time. Sorry if you are offended, but I remember it differently. The Marvin Davis angle is correct, you can google it if you like. There were rumors about DeBartolo moving the team, but they were not so much front and center by the time Veeck agreed to sell the team to him. I don't believe that he would have moved the team. In fact, I wish he would have had the opportunity to complete his purchase. I wish I had the time and the opportunity and go back and look at the newspaper microfilms. I still have a source that can probably confirm or refute my memories. Maybe I will pursue that.

TDog
11-30-2010, 09:21 PM
Sorry if you are offended, but I remember it differently. The Marvin Davis angle is correct, you can google it if you like. There were rumors about DeBartolo moving the team, but they were not so much front and center by the time Veeck agreed to sell the team to him. I don't believe that he would have moved the team. In fact, I wish he would have had the opportunity to complete his purchase. I wish I had the time and the opportunity and go back and look at the newspaper microfilms. I still have a source that can probably confirm or refute my memories. Maybe I will pursue that.

The Davis angle is independent of DeBartolo and really has nothing to do with my point, except that it shows that when Veeck was selling the White Sox for the second time, he didn't care about keeping the team in Chicago.

I understand there are many White Sox fans who wish DeBartolo had purchased the team. Some believe he would have invested more money into the team than the Reinsdorf group did -- although he helped Veeck sign Jim Essian when Carlton Fisk was available for a higher price. (Steelrod's implication that Fisk would not have been signed as a second free-agent catcher had not the Reinsdorf ownership taken over the team, that an owner wouldn't sign two free-agent catchers in an off-season is probably spot on.)

There are White Sox fans who hate the Reinsdorf group for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons are petty, but I won't generalize.

DeBartolo answered charges that he wanted to buy the White Sox to move the team by agreeing to pay a financial penalty if he moved the team. (That is how prominent the issue was.) Do White Sox fans believe he would have spent freely on the White Sox and be dissuaded to move the team because he would face a financial penalty?

I respect the current White Sox ownership group. I don't agree with all of the things management has done, but as the most recent sale of the White Sox was being sorted out, I was very happy DeBartolo didn't get his hands on the team.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2010, 10:13 PM
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened considering he was not opposed to spending a ton of money to win.

Example: He bought the 49'ers for his son to play with...and we see what happened there in the 80's didn't we?

Had DeBartolo bought the White Sox, according to everything I've read and been personally told, he wasn't going anywhere.

Either way it's a moot point.

Lip

TDog
11-30-2010, 10:40 PM
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened considering he was not opposed to spending a ton of money to win.

Example: He bought the 49'ers for his son to play with...and we see what happened there in the 80's didn't we?

Had DeBartolo bought the White Sox, according to everything I've read and been personally told, he wasn't going anywhere.

Either way it's a moot point.

Lip

You're right. It is a moot point. There is no way of knowing if the people who were certain he planned to move the team were wrong. There is no way of knowing if baseball would have been successful in breaking the union after the players went on strike the way the NFL did to the benefit of DeBartolo's son. There is no way of knowing what team other than the White Sox Carlton Fisk would have ended up with.

But I'm happy that I don't live in the alternate universe where DeBartolo got his hand on the White Sox.