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View Full Version : Big Hurt = Sox' greatest player EVER


Bisco Stu
06-29-2002, 03:22 PM
Maybe one day all this "trade Frank" nonsense will stop.

Nellie_Fox
06-30-2002, 03:09 AM
At the very least, Frank has earned the right to have a season to return to form after such a significant injury.

RKMeibalane
06-30-2002, 03:43 AM
I'm sure bc2k will show up at some point and complain that Frank's homerun wasn't hit far enough. Good grief!

DVG
06-30-2002, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
Maybe one day all this "trade Frank" nonsense will stop.


Amen.


:ass

DDDAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Dey gatta trade Thomas! He's da worstest
guy on da team!!! An' I oughta know, 'cause I'm a Sahx fan!!!
And da bestest talk radio guy on television!!!

SSSKISHHHH!! AROOOO!!! AROOOOO!!!!!
(sound of windows shattering, dogs howling in pain.)

gogosox
06-30-2002, 12:22 PM
Frank may be the Sox best offensive player of all time, but his fielding and poor attitude have cost the sox many games, and maybe a few division titles. His glove is awful at best, and his poor performance in the playoff's has lead me to believe he can not be counted on when it counts.

What a great topic for my first post.

RedPinStripes
06-30-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by gogosox
Frank may be the Sox best offensive player of all time, but his fielding and poor attitude have cost the sox many games, and maybe a few division titles. His glove is awful at best, and his poor performance in the playoff's has lead me to believe he can not be counted on when it counts.

What a great topic for my first post.

You're only speaking the truth dude!.

Welcome to WSI! :gulp:

doublem23
06-30-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by gogosox
his poor performance in the playoff's has lead me to believe he can not be counted on when it counts.

He's played in 2 play-off series in his career. One time, he hit .353. The 2nd time he went 0-for-9 (like most of the rest of the offense).

Sheesh, if that's enough reason to trade someone, we should dump Ordonez and Konerko, too (who have a combined .100 (2/20) average in the post-season; Maggs 2-11, Paul 0-9).

MarkEdward
06-30-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by gogosox
Frank may be the Sox best offensive player of all time, but his fielding and poor attitude have cost the sox many games, and maybe a few division titles. His glove is awful at best, and his poor performance in the playoff's has lead me to believe he can not be counted on when it counts.

What a great topic for my first post.


Career .991 fielding percentage is awful? Career 8.67 range factor (league average: 8.28) is awful? Career .846 OPS in the playoffs is pretty good, even though 26 at bats is an awfully small sample size. He had a .353 average in the 1993 ALCS, for pete's sake. I don't call that a "poor performance." His "poor attitude" hasn't cost the Sox a game, lest a division title. If anything, he's helped our younger players develop their swings. Frank Thomas hasn't been great since 1997, but even his 98-00 stats are amazing for a supposedly declining player.

FarWestChicago
06-30-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by gogosox
Frank may be the Sox best offensive player of all time, but his fielding and poor attitude have cost the sox many games, and maybe a few division titles. His glove is awful at best, and his poor performance in the playoff's has lead me to believe he can not be counted on when it counts.

What a great topic for my first post. :whoflungpoo

kevingrt
06-30-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward



Career .991 fielding percentage is awful? Career 8.67 range factor (league average: 8.28) is awful? Career .846 OPS in the playoffs is pretty good, even though 26 at bats is an awfully small sample size. He had a .353 average in the 1993 ALCS, for pete's sake. I don't call that a "poor performance." His "poor attitude" hasn't cost the Sox a game, lest a division title. If anything, he's helped our younger players develop their swings. Frank Thomas hasn't been great since 1997, but even his 98-00 stats are amazing for a supposedly declining player.

Where'd you find those in-depth stats? They're Great!

RKMeibalane
06-30-2002, 01:52 PM
You can find numbers like those at ESPN or CNNSI.

MarkEdward
06-30-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt


Where'd you find those in-depth stats? They're Great!


Baseball-reference.com. It's an awesome reference tool, and just a great place to be if you're killing time on the net.

bc2k
07-01-2002, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward



Career .991 fielding percentage is awful? Career 8.67 range factor (league average: 8.28) is awful? Career .846 OPS in the playoffs is pretty good, even though 26 at bats is an awfully small sample size. He had a .353 average in the 1993 ALCS, for pete's sake. I don't call that a "poor performance." His "poor attitude" hasn't cost the Sox a game, lest a division title. If anything, he's helped our younger players develop their swings. Frank Thomas hasn't been great since 1997, but even his 98-00 stats are amazing for a supposedly declining player.

Whatever the stats say of Thomas' past don't hold true in 2002. The book is out on Thomas. Teams know to bunt at him. The problem is they don't sacrifice bunt, they bunt for hits. Besides, he is nowhere near the fielder Konerko is. Also, how the hell to you tear a tricep diving for a baseball? That is pure unathleticism. Or maybe that is what happens when 340 pounds land on one arm.

What advice could Frank be giving to younger players? He would be the Nardi of hitting coaches. "Ok kid try this; stand as far away from the plate as possible so you can make up for your slow bat speed and can hit the inside pitch. If the pitcher goes center away just tip your hat to him and don't swing because we stand too far away to hit that. Also, buckle your knees at every curveball. Only swing with your arms, forget what they told you about weight transfer. If you follow my tips, you'll be sure to match my intimidating .250 average."

I don't hate Thomas, I hate his performance. Say what you want about his career stats, what kind of player is he today? You guys are thinking of this year and his great years in the past while I'm thinking of this year's performance and his skills through 2006. Assuming Thomas never returns to '97 form, how can the Sox win with him taking 10 million of the budget per year through 2006?

cornball
07-01-2002, 07:01 AM
He is one of the greatest Sox players of all time no dispute....2MVPs and in the running a few other times...

I think people are down on Frank currently due to the limited budget of the team and the great percentage he takes from that budget. He performance is below the norm for Frank. If he had "Big Hurt" time numbers there would be no discussion of this.

34 Inch Stick
07-01-2002, 09:49 AM
I believe he was second in MVP voting in 2000 to Giambi (he was robbed of his third MVP that year). Don't you think it is possible that this year is the aberration and that after a full recovery he will return to 2000 form. By the way in relation to the mortal world, Frank's numbers this year are more than acceptable for a DH.

MarkEdward
07-01-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
What advice could Frank be giving to younger players? He would be the Nardi of hitting coaches. "Ok kid try this; stand as far away from the plate as possible so you can make up for your slow bat speed and can hit the inside pitch. If the pitcher goes center away just tip your hat to him and don't swing because we stand too far away to hit that. Also, buckle your knees at every curveball. Only swing with your arms, forget what they told you about weight transfer. If you follow my tips, you'll be sure to match my intimidating .250 average."


What advice could Frank give to the kids? How about how to draw a walk, since he led the league in base on balls 4 times. How about extra-base hits; he's led the league twice there. He's sixth career in OPS, what *can't* Frank teach the kids? I'm ranting a little here, but only once has he struck out more than 100 times in a season. And for all of this production, Frank's only had two seasons where he's been top 5 in salary.

Clarkdog
07-01-2002, 12:10 PM
My take on Frank:

He's a numbers guy. Always has been. He has never been much of a leader, nor has he wanted to be. He would prefer to let his performance do the talking. That said, Frank's new "attitude" has nothing to do with his current struggles, he is still trying to settle in after being out for the majority of the 2001 season. He is still trying to find his batter's eye, which could explain the buckling on breaking balls and the fact that his walks are down relative to his K's. His bat is slower than in 2000, but at 34, he is too young not to be able to comeback to prior form. Edgar Martinez is 39, you would think that Thomas could have another productive 5 years.

Frank wants to be in the Hall of Fame, outside of a championship, that is what he covets, and he knows better than anyone that if he doesn't put up the numbers in the latter part of his career, he may not get in when he's eligible on the writer's ballot. That leaves it to the veteran's committee and I don't think he feels that he should toil the way Ron Santo has.

As far as trading him, even if you wanted to, you couldn't, because no one wants that contract. If Reinsdorf decided to exercise the "diminshed skills" clause, he still has to pay Thomas his $10MM, he just deferrs the payment. Thomas would never exercise his free agency under that clause because no one would pay him $10MM today on the market beacuse there are so many ?'s about his ability in the future.

Be patient, I think Frank is going to be the player he always was. He just needs some time.

guillen4life13
07-01-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
My take on Frank:

He's a numbers guy. Always has been. He has never been much of a leader, nor has he wanted to be. He would prefer to let his performance do the talking. That said, Frank's new "attitude" has nothing to do with his current struggles, he is still trying to settle in after being out for the majority of the 2001 season. He is still trying to find his batter's eye, which could explain the buckling on breaking balls and the fact that his walks are down relative to his K's. His bat is slower than in 2000, but at 34, he is too young not to be able to comeback to prior form. Edgar Martinez is 39, you would think that Thomas could have another productive 5 years.

Frank wants to be in the Hall of Fame, outside of a championship, that is what he covets, and he knows better than anyone that if he doesn't put up the numbers in the latter part of his career, he may not get in when he's eligible on the writer's ballot. That leaves it to the veteran's committee and I don't think he feels that he should toil the way Ron Santo has.

As far as trading him, even if you wanted to, you couldn't, because no one wants that contract. If Reinsdorf decided to exercise the "diminshed skills" clause, he still has to pay Thomas his $10MM, he just deferrs the payment. Thomas would never exercise his free agency under that clause because no one would pay him $10MM today on the market beacuse there are so many ?'s about his ability in the future.

Be patient, I think Frank is going to be the player he always was. He just needs some time.


look. the man has been one of the most productive hitters of the '90's... including his 98-99 years. I think that if Jose Canseco can even be CONSIDERED for the hall of fame... then Frank Thomas should be going in there with the greatest of ease.

As for hitting... his style is so much different from almost any hitter out there. He stands away from the plate, and his swing is very unorthodox (a good swing for thomas will have him already in a run, or will have both of his legs bent, unless he hits a high inside pitch). He doesn't have the normal front leg straight, back leg bent follow through. and also he goes from high to low with his swing, creating a ton of back spin. there aren't too many guys out there who do that (Jim Thome is one of the only guys i can thing of). Only certain hitting coaches can help him with his swing.

as for teaching the younger players how to swing... i don't think that frank should be doing that because of his swinging style. his style is what has worked for him for the last 11 years. it probably won't work for many other players. Frank would probably be a good teacher when it comes to baseball etiquette, and so on (he's been at the top of the hill for the past 11 years... there's a lot he could teach kids about the game itself).

Frank will be back... and i don't have many doubts about that. As for fielding: his fielding did not stop the Sox from winning a world series. the strike did (and so did the Toronto Blue Jays). frank was leading that team all the way. give him another chance in 2003 (if he doesn't at least hit .285 this year, with a solid 30-35 HR's this year). Next year I think he will be back to his .330, 45, 140 self.

if he isn't able to get there (or close)... then we will have a very good reason to continue this discussion. as of now... this one seems pointless. Frank Thomas has been the franchise player for this team... and I feel that he should stay. it's not like we've got pay-rod here. this is frank with a $10 million salary.

Cheryl
07-01-2002, 02:47 PM
"Do not be remembering the most natural man ever to wear spiked shoes.
The canniest fielder and the longest hitter,
Who squatted on his heels
In a uniform muddied at the knees,
Till the bleacher shadows grew long behind him.
Who went along with Chick and Buck and Happy
Because they treated him so friendly-like,
Hardly like Yankees at all.
With Williams because Lefty was from the South too.
And with Risberg because the Swede was such a hard guy.
Who made an X for his name and couldn't argue with
Comiskey's sleepers.
But who could pick a line drive out of the air ten feet outside the foul line
And rifle anything home from anywhere in the park.
For Shoeless Joe is gone, long gone,
A long yellow grass-blade between his teeth
And the bleacher shadows behind him."

Bisco Stu
07-01-2002, 03:59 PM
Sorry, but Shoeless Joe is a TRAITOR. Worthless to me. Sure, Frank whined about money, but that never affected the integrity of his play on the field. Frank is INTENSE, every at-bat, even if he does pop up too much these days.

As far as the money? He's still on pace to drive in 100, that, plus his place in Sox history makes him worth the money.

DVG
07-01-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
Sorry, but Shoeless Joe is a TRAITOR. Worthless to me.


THANK YOU!!!! I'm happy to see that I'm not alone in feeling
that way. Shoeless maybe belongs in the Gambling and Fixing
Hall of Fame, but definitely not the baseball HOF.

Cheryl
07-01-2002, 04:38 PM
I'm not even going to argue with you guys about this. I just felt like reciting some poetry to you. Think of it as your little bit of culture for the day.

DVG
07-01-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
I'm not even going to argue with you guys about this. I just felt like reciting some poetry to you. Think of it as your little bit of culture for the day.


"Get thee to a nunnery."

That enough culture for you, Cherie my dear?

doublem23
07-01-2002, 05:47 PM
Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall of Fame. No questions asked.

guillen4life13
07-01-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall of Fame. No questions asked.

agreed

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2002, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Or maybe that is what happens when 340 pounds land on one arm.Well bc2k, there you go again. If you want to have any credibility, then have some accuracy in your attacks. Frank's a big man, but nowhere near 340. Exaggerating to make a point simply renders your point invalid.

voodoochile
07-02-2002, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Well bc2k, there you go again. If you want to have any credibility, then have some accuracy in your attacks. Frank's a big man, but nowhere near 340. Exaggerating to make a point simply renders your point invalid.

Good point, Nellie. I have always seen Frank listed around 270. He isn't any bigger this year than in years past, certainly not carrying any extra flab than before. What's with the constant exagerations about Frank's weight? It seems to be getting worse too... 320... no, 330... no...um...340... How soon will B2ck have Frank listed at over 400 pounds? Season end?

You claim you don't hate Frank, b2ck. Why don't you prove it and discuss his plusses and minuses without all the needless exageration. It certainly makes you look biased and it adds exactly nothing to the argument...

raul12
07-02-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
Sorry, but Shoeless Joe is a TRAITOR. Worthless to me. Sure, Frank whined about money, but that never affected the integrity of his play on the field. Frank is INTENSE, every at-bat, even if he does pop up too much these days.

As far as the money? He's still on pace to drive in 100, that, plus his place in Sox history makes him worth the money.

oh for goodness sakes--like YOU'VE never ever done something you regretted later on. he made ONE mistake. but you'll never let it go--you'd much rather have something to whine and complain about rather than admit that he was one of the greatest white sox players ever to put on a uniform.

Cheryl
07-02-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by DVG



"Get thee to a nunnery."

That enough culture for you, Cherie my dear?

Nobody ever calls me Cherie. Just so you know.

mheini31
07-02-2002, 08:51 PM
I love how everyone has jumped on the Bandwagon that's driving Frank Thomas out of town. Now, what I don't understand is this: There is no arguing his stats from '91-'97, but in '98 he still had 29 homers and 109 RBI's and in '99 he batted .305. Now here's my point, granted not great season's by Frank Thomas standards, but since then he's had an MVP type (.328, 43, 143) season, and a season lost to injury. Now this year, take his stats without Batting average and line them up against most All-Stars and you'll have comprable numbers.

We shouldn't complain about a guy who in a "bad" year, when he's the "worst player on the team" is still on pace for 31 homers and 109 RBI's. I just don't get it.

Daver
07-02-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by mheini31
I love how everyone has jumped on the Bandwagon that's driving Frank Thomas out of town. Now, what I don't understand is this: There is no arguing his stats from '91-'97, but in '98 he still had 29 homers and 109 RBI's and in '99 he batted .305. Now here's my point, granted not great season's by Frank Thomas standards, but since then he's had an MVP type (.328, 43, 143) season, and a season lost to injury. Now this year, take his stats without Batting average and line them up against most All-Stars and you'll have comprable numbers.

We shouldn't complain about a guy who in a "bad" year, when he's the "worst player on the team" is still on pace for 31 homers and 109 RBI's. I just don't get it.

I don't get it either,and welcome aboard. :redneck