PDA

View Full Version : Stat Worthiness Discussion (Moved from Mark Buehrle GG Thread)


JermaineDye05
11-08-2010, 07:15 PM
It will be beyond a travesty if Jeter wins the SS gold glove. Hopefully Alexei wins it. He had a lot of errors, but he got to far more balls than most short stops. His UZR was 10.8 as opposed to Jeter's -4.7

Daver
11-08-2010, 08:16 PM
His UZR was 10.8 as opposed to Jeter's -4.7

Your what hurts?

KRS1
11-08-2010, 08:25 PM
Your what hurts?

You're what doesn't?

chisoxfanatic
11-08-2010, 08:40 PM
It will be beyond a travesty if Jeter wins the SS gold glove. Hopefully Alexei wins it. He had a lot of errors, but he got to far more balls than most short stops. His UZR was 10.8 as opposed to Jeter's -4.7
What the hell is UZR?

voodoochile
11-08-2010, 08:43 PM
What the hell is UZR?

It's Ultimate Zone Rating it's the latest hot stat for discussing defense. It's been around a few years.

JermaineDye05
11-08-2010, 08:43 PM
What the hell is UZR?

Ultimate Zone Rating


(http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-fangraphs-uzr-primer/)

DirtySox
11-08-2010, 08:44 PM
What the hell is UZR?

A commonly used defensive metric.

Google is your friend.

Daver
11-08-2010, 08:55 PM
What parameters are used to break down instinct, coordination, quickness, and reflex into a quantifiable number?

Once that is answered I will have more questions.

DumpJerry
11-08-2010, 11:04 PM
This thread is rapidly becoming one of the most humorous in the history of not only WSI, but Internet threads overall.

Until I read this thread about two minutes ago, I had never heard of "UZR."

Those of you who think it is a relevant and salient stat to enjoy the kid's sport known as baseball, I suggest when you're at a Sox game next summer, turn to a stranger sitting near you and say "So, this Beckham kid, do you think his UZR justifies Ozzie using him 90% of the time?" Go ahead, try it.

doublem23
11-08-2010, 11:15 PM
What parameters are used to break down instinct, coordination, quickness, and reflex into a quantifiable number?

Once that is answered I will have more questions.

You can have all the instincts, reflexes, bla bla bla bla bla in the world, but if you're not getting to balls, what's it worth?

I don't like defensive metrics much, but I'm at least open to UZR, as it basically measures how much more or less often you get to a ball against the average fielder (if I'm interpreting it correctly)

WhiteSox5187
11-08-2010, 11:42 PM
You can have all the instincts, reflexes, bla bla bla bla bla in the world, but if you're not getting to balls, what's it worth?

I don't like defensive metrics much, but I'm at least open to UZR, as it basically measures how much more or less often you get to a ball against the average fielder (if I'm interpreting it correctly)

But how do you figure that out? That's what I don't get, but having watched Jeter and Alexei play, it's quite clear that Alexei has more range. And even then, a guy might have more range but another guy (like but not necessarily Jeter) might not have as much range but might know EXACTLY how to position himself against a hitter, Luis Apparicio used to be able to do that...or so my dad says.

Daver
11-08-2010, 11:45 PM
You can have all the instincts, reflexes, bla bla bla bla bla in the world, but if you're not getting to balls, what's it worth?

I don't like defensive metrics much, but I'm at least open to UZR, as it basically measures how much more or less often you get to a ball against the average fielder (if I'm interpreting it correctly)

You trust a measuring stat you don't understand?

WhiteSox5187
11-08-2010, 11:49 PM
You trust a measuring stat you don't understand?

I can't speak for Doub, but if I were limited to trusting things I understand, I don't think I would be able to trust anything.

Lyle Mouton
11-08-2010, 11:52 PM
This thread is rapidly becoming one of the most humorous in the history of not only WSI, but Internet threads overall.

Until I read this thread about two minutes ago, I had never heard of "UZR."

Those of you who think it is a relevant and salient stat to enjoy the kid's sport known as baseball, I suggest when you're at a Sox game next summer, turn to a stranger sitting near you and say "So, this Beckham kid, do you think his UZR justifies Ozzie using him 90% of the time?" Go ahead, try it.
Possibly the dumbest measuring stick for a statistic's worth. Well done.

Huisj
11-09-2010, 12:04 AM
But how do you figure that out? That's what I don't get, but having watched Jeter and Alexei play, it's quite clear that Alexei has more range. And even then, a guy might have more range but another guy (like but not necessarily Jeter) might not have as much range but might know EXACTLY how to position himself against a hitter, Luis Apparicio used to be able to do that...or so my dad says.

If a player knew how to position himself for a hitter, then they would get to more balls, and thus it would show up in the stats, would it not? If one could position himself in a way to make up for limited range, they would get to the same number of balls as one who didn't know as much but could move and get to things, right?

Huisj
11-09-2010, 12:11 AM
I can't speak for Doub, but if I were limited to trusting things I understand, I don't think I would be able to trust anything.

I'll second that. I'm an engineer, and the more I learn, the more I realize I don't understand fully and never will be able to. But I still have to trust that it works in order to do the things I need to do. Otherwise everybody everywhere would have to constantly remake the same discoveries over and over.

As for UZR, this is a somewhat interesting article about it. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-UZR?urn=mlb-212311) I think one of the more interesting things is that they mention how this and other fielding metrics are often based on things people track from actually watching video of each play to determine where a play was made. In a sense, that's an attempt to combine the worlds of scouting and stats together to get a deeper understanding, and those are two worlds that seem to (or at least pretend to) hate each other almost irrationally at times. They're both valuable, and if used together, aren't they even more valuable?

TDog
11-09-2010, 12:44 AM
A commonly used defensive metric.

...

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a commonly used defense metric.

russ99
11-09-2010, 01:12 AM
It will be beyond a travesty if Jeter wins the SS gold glove. Hopefully Alexei wins it. He had a lot of errors, but he got to far more balls than most short stops. His UZR was 10.8 as opposed to Jeter's -4.7

The gold glove award for position players has a long history of being a sham.

It should more accurately be defined as best defensive big name player who's also a good hitter.

JermaineDye05
11-09-2010, 01:33 AM
The gold glove award for position players has a long history of being a sham.

It should more accurately be defined as best defensive big name player who's also a good hitter.

That would make it even more of a sham if Jeter won.

Nellie_Fox
11-09-2010, 01:42 AM
That would make it even more of a sham if Jeter won.No regular rules apply when it comes to Jeter. Remember, you can just refer to "the captain," and everybody knows who you're talking about.

SI1020
11-09-2010, 11:38 AM
A commonly used defensive metric.

Google is your friend. Unnecessary rip. I still don't fully understand how UZR works, and I do my best to keep up with all things baseball. I will say that as I understand it, UZR works better for infielders than it does for outfielders. I do find that when examining dWar for fielders that I've considered outstanding it roughly coorelates in a positive way to my opinions.

voodoochile
11-09-2010, 11:50 AM
Unnecessary rip. I still don't fully understand how UZR works, and I do my best to keep up with all things baseball. I will say that as I understand it, UZR works better for infielders than it does for outfielders. I do find that when examining dWar for fielders that I've considered outstanding it roughly coorelates in a positive way to my opinions.

I don't use defensive metrics other than to try to see if the stats match what I am seeing with my own eyes. When I saw Alexei making huge leaps defensively early in the season I went and checked his UZR and was happy to see him leading the league and not by a small margin.

I have no idea how it works, but if I'm going to have a discussion with people who value stats as the best evaluation tool I need to speak their language. :D:

dickallen15
11-09-2010, 11:51 AM
I heard Buck Showalter mention he never voted for Greg Maddux, a guw with a ton of GGs, for the GG because he was so awful at holding runners on. I thought it was an excellent point. When Maddux was in his prime, it didn't matter taking second was almost a given. Later, it hurt his ERA. Its another feather in Buerhle's cap the way he cuts down the running game and picks guys off.

DumpJerry
11-09-2010, 04:42 PM
I heard Buck Showalter mention he never voted for Greg Maddux, a guw with a ton of GGs, for the GG because he was so awful at holding runners on. I thought it was an excellent point. When Maddux was in his prime, it didn't matter taking second was almost a given. Later, it hurt his ERA. Its another feather in Buerhle's cap the way he cuts down the running game and picks guys off.
Joe West is working on that issue as we speak.

doublem23
11-09-2010, 05:03 PM
You trust a measuring stat you don't understand?

No, as I noted, I'm cautious with UZR, I don't trust it as a be-all, end-all of defensive stats (which, I don't believe exists), but in the extremely limited pantheon of defensive metrics, UZR might be the best.

Again, I understand if you want to talk about how heart, and hustle, and instincts, and quickness cannot be measured numerically, and I'll concede that point, but the ultimately, defense is measured on your ability to get to balls and make outs. Guys who get to balls in the field and make outs more often are better defensively than guys who don't. That's really it.

Bobby Thigpen
11-09-2010, 05:28 PM
I don't like defensive metrics much, but I'm at least open to UZR, as it basically measures how much more or less often you get to a ball against the average fielder (if I'm interpreting it correctly)
That kinda gives the impression you don't know what it means.

MisterB
11-09-2010, 06:35 PM
No regular rules apply when it comes to Jeter. Remember, you can just refer to "the captain," and everybody knows who you're talking about.

http://www.awesomeoff.com/images/entries2/mainview/captainmorgan.jpg?

But seriously: UZR might be the best defensive stat available, but considering how poor previous defensive metrics have been that's not necessarily saying much.

doublem23
11-09-2010, 06:38 PM
That kinda gives the impression you don't know what it means.

I guess I worded that poorly. Like I said A) I don't think UZR is the end-all stat in which you can just rank every player defensively 1-whatever and be done with it and B) I don't really like any defensive metric that much; while hitting and pitching ultimately occur in a 1 v. 1 vaccuum, defense, of course, does not. So it's a little bit trickier assigning individual values to what is a lot more team-oriented. So no, I haven't taken a lot of time to really get to know UZR as well as a lot of offensive stats, which I place a lot more value on. From the little bit I've read on UZR and the little bit I've watched how it ranks players defensively, I can say that I trust it more than any other defensive stat, but that's like saying if given the choice to eat at say, Applebee's, Chili's, or TGI Friday's, I guess I'd rather eat at Chili's, but really, I don't like any of the options that much. It's just the best of some terrible, terrible choices.

DumpJerry
11-09-2010, 06:54 PM
Forget the stats. Just sit back, strap it down and enjoy the game!

WhiteSox5187
11-09-2010, 06:55 PM
No, as I noted, I'm cautious with UZR, I don't trust it as a be-all, end-all of defensive stats (which, I don't believe exists), but in the extremely limited pantheon of defensive metrics, UZR might be the best.

Again, I understand if you want to talk about how heart, and hustle, and instincts, and quickness cannot be measured numerically, and I'll concede that point, but the ultimately, defense is measured on your ability to get to balls and make outs. Guys who get to balls in the field and make outs more often are better defensively than guys who don't. That's really it.

This might be somewhat unrelated, but I wonder how often stats clash with what a scout sees.

DumpJerry
11-09-2010, 06:57 PM
This might be somewhat unrelated, but I wonder how often stats clash with what a scout sees.
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/steve-jobs-3g-iphone1.jpg
There's a stat for that.

Lip Man 1
11-09-2010, 07:01 PM
Good recap and examines the question of Jeter's selection:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5784846

Lip

doublem23
11-09-2010, 07:53 PM
Forget the stats. Just sit back, strap it down and enjoy the game!

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Actually, the more I learn and read on stats, the more I enjoy the game.