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View Full Version : Sox re-sign Vizquel


Sockinchisox
11-02-2010, 01:42 PM
1 year deal, 1.75 mil.

http://twitter.com/#!/InsideTheSox/status/29495411372

soltrain21
11-02-2010, 01:45 PM
I like it. Hopefully we don't have to plug him in as a starter almost everyday.

infohawk
11-02-2010, 01:47 PM
The Sun-Times Twitter feed said something about Cora being back, too. I'm looking for official word.

DirtySox
11-02-2010, 01:48 PM
I like Omar back, but I hope he isn't taking too many AB's away from Morel.

esbrechtel
11-02-2010, 01:56 PM
I like Omar being back as well!

Rockabilly
11-02-2010, 01:56 PM
great news!!!

Ranger
11-02-2010, 02:16 PM
I like Omar back, but I hope he isn't taking too many AB's away from Morel.

I would imagine he won't. At this point, it seems Morel has the job to lose going into spring training.

Boondock Saint
11-02-2010, 02:18 PM
Great way to start the offseason.

manders_01
11-02-2010, 02:41 PM
Just got the email. I like it! :thumbsup:

GlassSox
11-02-2010, 02:45 PM
I like it very much! :D:

WhiteSoxFTW
11-02-2010, 02:46 PM
I think it is a good move. Omar proved to be an invaluable asset in 2010. I am glad they re-signed him and also glad they re-signed Castro. Two good early off-season moves.

DirtySox
11-02-2010, 02:48 PM
I would imagine he won't. At this point, it seems Morel has the job to lose going into spring training.

That's my hope. Super utility IF is a fine spot for Omar.

BleacherBandit
11-02-2010, 02:49 PM
This isn't anything but good news. Omar still has some gas left in the tank.

Marqhead
11-02-2010, 02:51 PM
But will he continue to wear Aparicio's #?

:cool:

asindc
11-02-2010, 02:53 PM
Very good move. Hope he is our super utility IF/IF coach-mentor and not much more, meaning that I hope Morel locks down the 3B job.

tm1119
11-02-2010, 02:54 PM
I almost didn't want him back because I know Ozzie isn't going to be able to resist playing him way too much. He gave us good production last year and I like him as a bench player, but that's all he is and I hope Ozzie can realize that. Hopefully KW can get a good 3B and make the decision for Ozzie, because I know Omar is gonna get the pt over morel if it's up to Ozzie.

Cap
11-02-2010, 02:58 PM
I really like this, it gives the Sox more room if Morel doesn't work out. I really hope Morel gets the 3rd base job, but nothing would be wrong with Vizquel and Morel sharing some time. If Vizquel can give us another 2010, this will be a great, simple move. Anything over Teahen at 3rd! :praying:

MtGrnwdSoxFan
11-02-2010, 02:59 PM
Great to see! Abuelo Omar was fantastic last year, and I was worried a team desperate for IF help would shell out for him.

The fact that he re-signed this early instead of holding out for the biggest deal showed that he really likes it here.

Good start, Kenny, and welcome back, Abuelo Omar! :cheers:

ChiSoxGal85
11-02-2010, 03:13 PM
Love this move. Omar is a solid player and was a good influence on Alexei this season. I hate to think what would have happened if they didn't have him when Teahen got hurt. Nice to have him back!

FielderJones
11-02-2010, 03:16 PM
I almost didn't want him back because I know Ozzie isn't going to be able to resist playing him way too much. He gave us good production last year and I like him as a bench player, but that's all he is and I hope Ozzie can realize that. Hopefully KW can get a good 3B and make the decision for Ozzie, because I know Omar is gonna get the pt over morel if it's up to Ozzie.

:scratch:

How many at-bats did Omar get before Teahen got hurt? Ans: 50 ABs in Apr and May combined.

Ozzie is not going to play Omar too much unless one of Morel, Ramirez, and Beckham get injured or have a long streak of futility at the plate.

soxfanreggie
11-02-2010, 03:17 PM
I am glad to see this happen. I was hoping we would get to see him for one more season, as he seems to be a great tutor for our younger IFs. Hopefully they can transition this into a role in the organization as a roving instructor or coach.

I'm glad his HOF plaque would read: White Sox 2010-2011. I know there are arguments out there on whether or not he gets in, but if he does, I'm glad he'll have spent multiple years here.

Foulke You
11-02-2010, 03:18 PM
I almost didn't want him back because I know Ozzie isn't going to be able to resist playing him way too much. He gave us good production last year and I like him as a bench player, but that's all he is and I hope Ozzie can realize that. Hopefully KW can get a good 3B and make the decision for Ozzie, because I know Omar is gonna get the pt over morel if it's up to Ozzie.
Yeah, this is the only thing that concerns me too. I want Morel to play every day but my fear is that the first time Morel goes into a little funk, Ozzie will go back to playing Omar every day at 3B. We'll see though. It's always good to have extra veteran depth on the team, especially a guy who is a + defender. It's still a good move.

tm1119
11-02-2010, 03:25 PM
:scratch:

How many at-bats did Omar get before Teahen got hurt? Ans: 50 ABs in Apr and May combined.

Ozzie is not going to play Omar too much unless one of Morel, Ramirez, and Beckham get injured or have a long streak of futility at the plate.

And how many AB's is Teahen gonna get at 3b this year? Probably very few. That leaves a versatile vet and a rookie at 3b as this roster is currently constructed. And which of those players does Ozzie have a track record of playing? Of course it's still extremely early though.

WhiteSoxFTW
11-02-2010, 03:35 PM
I almost didn't want him back because I know Ozzie isn't going to be able to resist playing him way too much. He gave us good production last year and I like him as a bench player, but that's all he is and I hope Ozzie can realize that. Hopefully KW can get a good 3B and make the decision for Ozzie, because I know Omar is gonna get the pt over morel if it's up to Ozzie.

I think that is a little short-sided. I wouldn't say that is "all he is". Omar solidified the 3rd base position after Teahan got hurt, and the improved play from that position was one of the main ingredients to the Sox's two winning streaks.

BringHomeDaBacon
11-02-2010, 03:47 PM
I don't understand the excitement over the prospect of another season with either Teahen or Vizquel at third.

Gee, let's hope that a 44 year old player effectively can back up our stone handed starter that can't hit all that well anyway.

At least KW beat the rush to pay Omar $1.75 million next year.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
11-02-2010, 04:00 PM
I don't understand the excitement over the prospect of another season with either Teahen or Vizquel at third.

Gee, let's hope that a 44 year old player effectively can back up our stone handed starter that can't hit all that well anyway.

At least KW beat the rush to pay Omar $1.75 million next year.

Brent Morel says hi.

tm1119
11-02-2010, 04:23 PM
I think that is a little short-sided. I wouldn't say that is "all he is". Omar solidified the 3rd base position after Teahan got hurt, and the improved play from that position was one of the main ingredients to the Sox's two winning streaks.

Ok great, he was better than Teahen. Sorry, but that doesn't get you very far in the mlb. I appreciated what omar did for us last year, but omar is no where near a starting level mlb player at this point in his career. He posted a sub .700 ops last year. And his glove is solid, but not game changing any more to warrant playing him on any kind of regularity. Good bench guy to have, and I hope that's what he is this year.

thomas35forever
11-02-2010, 04:23 PM
Good move. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt this past season he can still bring it at his age. The Sox would have been stupid not to consider it.

BringHomeDaBacon
11-02-2010, 04:39 PM
Good move. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt this past season he can still bring it at his age. The Sox would have been stupid not to consider it.

Posting an OPS of .673 after three previous seasons of .660, .550 and .621 hardly proves he will be able to "bring it" at age 44.

ChiSoxGal85
11-02-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't understand the excitement over the prospect of another season with either Teahen or Vizquel at third.

Gee, let's hope that a 44 year old player effectively can back up our stone handed starter that can't hit all that well anyway.

At least KW beat the rush to pay Omar $1.75 million next year.
I don't think anyone is expecting those two to be full time at 3rd base. I believe Brent Morel is supposed to be the lead candidate for third.

Bobby Thigpen
11-02-2010, 04:50 PM
Posting an OPS of .673 after three previous seasons of .660, .550 and .621 hardly proves he will be able to "bring it" at age 44.
Many apologies.

We forgot that OPS is the only thing that matters in a ballplayer's make up.

soxlady8
11-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Great News to hear :)
I am glad we got Thornton , Castro and now Omie !!!

BringHomeDaBacon
11-02-2010, 05:02 PM
Great News to hear :)
I am glad we got Thornton , Castro and now Omie !!!

What? Ozzie has a fourth son?

soxlady8
11-02-2010, 05:09 PM
Omie is my nickname for him.
Like Bacon , Thortonator , Captain K , etc. etc.

chisoxfanatic
11-02-2010, 05:29 PM
Nice! Loved his defense!

TheCommander
11-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Omie is my nickname for him.
Like Bacon , Thortonator , Captain K , etc. etc.

Omie? Oh my!

TheCommander
11-02-2010, 05:32 PM
What? Ozzie has a fourth son?

:rolling:

WhiteSox5187
11-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Great move, he can still throw the leather at age 44, anything offensively is a bonus. But he's a great utility back up.

russ99
11-02-2010, 05:52 PM
Glad the Sox brought him back, but I don't like that a 43 year old got a $375K raise.

He's good insurance in case one of our middle infielders get hurt. But I'd also like to see the Sox tell Alexei that he better come to camp ready to play on Opening Day, or Omar will get some of his playing time in April and May.

Tragg
11-02-2010, 06:16 PM
as utility infielder,fine. It's a little pricey for someone who can't hit.

The simple fact is that is if he is a starter at 3B again this year, the Sox are in severe deficit at that position.

Boondock Saint
11-02-2010, 06:26 PM
Posting an OPS of .673 after three previous seasons of .660, .550 and .621 hardly proves he will be able to "bring it" at age 44.

Omar Vizquel's career OPS is .692. Does that make him a bad player? The point is that Omar Vizquel doesn't get signed anywhere for his bat. His glove work is outstanding, even at his age. Picking on his bat when he's one of the greatest defenders ever is misguided at best. Nobody's celebrating that his bat is back. People are celebrating that we won't have to deal with Josh Fields/Wilson Betemit/Mark Teahen and the like at 3rd base anymore, and have a great backup for the infield in case someone gets hurt or Morel isn't ready.

DrCrawdad
11-02-2010, 06:31 PM
Many apologies.

We forgot that OPS is the only thing that matters in a ballplayer's make up.

You have to wonder how much that previous poster actually watched Omar play last season. He was a pleasure to watch play the game. TCM was great at SS last season too, perhaps the Omar influence matter has been overstated but perhaps not.

That said, I want to see Moral win the position and have Omar limited as a result. I'm glad Omar will be a part of the Sox team in 2011.

tm1119
11-02-2010, 09:02 PM
Omar Vizquel's career OPS is .692. Does that make him a bad player? The point is that Omar Vizquel doesn't get signed anywhere for his bat. His glove work is outstanding, even at his age. Picking on his bat when he's one of the greatest defenders ever is misguided at best. Nobody's celebrating that his bat is back. People are celebrating that we won't have to deal with Josh Fields/Wilson Betemit/Mark Teahen and the like at 3rd base anymore, and have a great backup for the infield in case someone gets hurt or Morel isn't ready.

SS is a much more important position than 3B. He got away with being a sub par hitter for so long because he brought incredible defense to 1 of, if not the most, important positions on the field. He brings neither to the table at this point. He plays a much less important position and while hes still good, hes no longer a dominant force in the field taking away hits like he did in his prime.
I dont have a problem with Vizquel on the roster, I actually kind of like it, but implying that he should be even considered for any kind of serious playing time is a pretty bad idea. I will go as far to say that if he starts with any kind of regularity due to anything but injuries we will fail to make the playoffs again. This is the modern day American League, we are gonna have to slug to compete. Its just the nature of the game.

ChiSoxGirl
11-02-2010, 09:14 PM
This is great news. As far as I see it, this is a low-risk, high-reward signing. This year, we saw that Vizquel can definitely throw some leather (even at his age) and his bat still has some life to it, so why not?!

tstrike2000
11-02-2010, 09:38 PM
Good, even at his age, he could have two broken arms and still play better defense than Teahen. Great to have as a backup for the three infield positions while continuing to be a mentor to Morel and TCM.

Bobby Thigpen
11-02-2010, 09:38 PM
You have to wonder how much that previous poster actually watched Omar play last season. He was a pleasure to watch play the game. TCM was great at SS last season too, perhaps the Omar influence matter has been overstated but perhaps not.

That said, I want to see Moral win the position and have Omar limited as a result. I'm glad Omar will be a part of the Sox team in 2011.
Agreed.

I don't want Omar to be the starting 3B, but to fill in in case of injury or as a 4th infielder? This is a very, very good signing.

russ99
11-02-2010, 11:30 PM
Omar Vizquel's career OPS is .692. Does that make him a bad player? The point is that Omar Vizquel doesn't get signed anywhere for his bat. His glove work is outstanding, even at his age. Picking on his bat when he's one of the greatest defenders ever is misguided at best. Nobody's celebrating that his bat is back. People are celebrating that we won't have to deal with Josh Fields/Wilson Betemit/Mark Teahen and the like at 3rd base anymore, and have a great backup for the infield in case someone gets hurt or Morel isn't ready.

OPS is a useless stat to determine how good someone is when they hit 2 home runs last year.

Boondock Saint
11-02-2010, 11:34 PM
SS is a much more important position than 3B. He got away with being a sub par hitter for so long because he brought incredible defense to 1 of, if not the most, important positions on the field. He brings neither to the table at this point. He plays a much less important position and while hes still good, hes no longer a dominant force in the field taking away hits like he did in his prime.
I dont have a problem with Vizquel on the roster, I actually kind of like it, but implying that he should be even considered for any kind of serious playing time is a pretty bad idea. I will go as far to say that if he starts with any kind of regularity due to anything but injuries we will fail to make the playoffs again. This is the modern day American League, we are gonna have to slug to compete. Its just the nature of the game.

1) Who won the World Series again? I don't think it was the massive bats of the Rangers, Yankees, Twins or Reds.

2) The Blue Jays (1st), Red Sox (2nd), Brewers (5th) D-Backs (6th) Sox (7th) and Rockies (8th) all missed the postseason, despite being in the top 10 in HR's this season. Six of the top ten teams in extra base hits missed the playoffs, as well. Only four of the top ten teams in fielding percentage and errors missed the playoffs. If slugging to win is the nature of the game, then my ass is a banjo. Pitching and defense is how you go all the way, year after year.

TDog
11-03-2010, 12:15 AM
1) Who won the World Series again? I don't think it was the massive bats of the Rangers, Yankees, Twins or Reds.

...

And who won the World Series MVP? At crunch time in the end, the Giants had two experienced shortstops playing on the left side of the infield. It was part of the reason the Rangers proved the easiest opponent the Giants faced since the beat up on the Cubs in September.

I don't expect Vizquel to be a regular in 2011. And I quite like Morel's defense. But Vizquel's glove and baseball experience was good for the team in 2010. I expect the same in 2011, with less playing time.

BringHomeDaBacon
11-03-2010, 12:15 AM
1) Who won the World Series again? I don't think it was the massive bats of the Rangers, Yankees, Twins or Reds.

2) The Blue Jays (1st), Red Sox (2nd), Brewers (5th) D-Backs (6th) Sox (7th) and Rockies (8th) all missed the postseason, despite being in the top 10 in HR's this season. Six of the top ten teams in extra base hits missed the playoffs, as well. Only four of the top ten teams in fielding percentage and errors missed the playoffs. If slugging to win is the nature of the game, then my ass is a banjo. Pitching and defense is how you go all the way, year after year.

Funny how everyone, including the Sox, throw crap around about defense yet no one seemed interested in Juan Uribe after 2008, 2009 and again after 2010.

Boondock Saint
11-03-2010, 12:29 AM
Funny how everyone, including the Sox, throw crap around about defense yet no one seemed interested in Juan Uribe after 2008, 2009 and again after 2010.

The Sox were committed to giving Josh Fields a chance in 2009. That failed. The Sox (incorrectly) thought they had their 3B for 2010 in Mark Teahen. That failed. Next year, the Sox are committed to giving Brent Morel a chance. Juan Uribe doesn't want to warm the bench in Chicago when he can be a starter elsewhere.

Pitching and defense proved to be what mattered in the end yet again. The Giants were tied for first in fielding percentage, and were first in ERA this year. If people want to ignore that, that's fine. You know what they say about leading a horse to water...

BringHomeDaBacon
11-03-2010, 12:49 AM
The Sox were committed to giving Josh Fields a chance in 2009. That failed. The Sox (incorrectly) thought they had their 3B for 2010 in Mark Teahen. That failed. Next year, the Sox are committed to giving Brent Morel a chance. Juan Uribe doesn't want to warm the bench in Chicago when he can be a starter elsewhere.

Pitching and defense proved to be what mattered in the end yet again. The Giants were tied for first in fielding percentage, and were first in ERA this year. If people want to ignore that, that's fine. You know what they say about leading a horse to water...

I assume by people you mean the White Sox because they are the ones that ignored defense in opting to go with Fields and Teahen.

Boondock Saint
11-03-2010, 02:08 AM
I assume by people you mean the White Sox because they are the ones that ignored defense in opting to go with Fields and Teahen.

I was referring to many people, but yes, the Sox are included in that collective.

nccwsfan
11-03-2010, 07:45 AM
You have to wonder how much that previous poster actually watched Omar play last season. He was a pleasure to watch play the game. TCM was great at SS last season too, perhaps the Omar influence matter has been overstated but perhaps not.

That said, I want to see Morel win the position and have Omar limited as a result. I'm glad Omar will be a part of the Sox team in 2011.

Completely agree with this, and I think Vizquel's influence on A. Ramirez is not overstated. Having him around as a utility infielder/mentor to Ramirez and Morel is the ideal situation for this team. I was happy to see this signing and hope it's a precursor for things to come.

kufram
11-03-2010, 10:42 AM
Omar back is good news. He is a prime example for not preconceiving things too much. Pre-2010 we heard the same things. He's too old... well, he clearly wasn't. He can't hit.... you don't bring Omar to hit. Some people already know how many games they want him to play. How many games he will play will be determined by events that no one can predict. I refer you to Jake Peavy.

You get the best bunch of players together to do what your game plan calls for. After that it is out of your control and you hope people perform the way they should and that injuries or poor performances don't force you to do things outside of the plan. But you respond to situations as they occur. Omar responded exceedingly well. Perfect for Beckham, TCM, and Morel.

Oh, and pitching and defense is always better than slugging for 10-8 wins. White Sox fans should have learned that by now.

Moses_Scurry
11-03-2010, 11:48 AM
Is it even a sure thing that Morel will be with the big club at the beginning of the season? I could EASILY see Kenny stubbornly try to justify his Teahen contract by having him still be the starting 3B. I could also see him trading one of the two (who is more likely to bring a good return? Morel, of course!) either alone or as part of a package.

khan
11-03-2010, 12:09 PM
OPS is a useless stat to determine how good someone is when they hit 2 home runs last year.
Not this **** again.

Slugging % is a good metric for a hitter. HRs are better than triples, which are better than doubles, which are better than singles. Therefore, HRs are weighted more highly than triples, which are weighted more highly than doubles, which in turn are weighted more highly than singles. You may not like reality, but there it is.

Getting on base is virtually always better than NOT getting on base. Again, this is a reality that you may or may not like, but it IS reality.

OPS is therefore a good metric for a hitter's ability. Get over it, OK?

I don't expect Vizquel to be a regular in 2011. And I quite like Morel's defense. But Vizquel's glove and baseball experience was good for the team in 2010. I expect the same in 2011, with less playing time.

I think the reason that some posters are getting amped up about Vizquel being re-signed is that no one "expected" Kotsay to be a virtual regular @ DH in 2010, either.


For my part, I was STUNNED at what Abuelo Omar provided in 2010, to tell you the truth. Going forward, I don't mind him being a part of the 2011 SOX, provided that he isn't a regular starter, but rather used more sparingly than in 2010.

TDog
11-03-2010, 12:21 PM
Is it even a sure thing that Morel will be with the big club at the beginning of the season? I could EASILY see Kenny stubbornly try to justify his Teahen contract by having him still be the starting 3B. I could also see him trading one of the two (who is more likely to bring a good return? Morel, of course!) either alone or as part of a package.

You are right that it isn't a sure thing Morel will break camp with the White Sox in 2011. And if he does, he probably won't be expected to hit. That being said, Teahen probably has more trade value than Morel. Teahen would be expected to be a better hitter. Morel is a prospect with some September callup experience. People here complain about Teahen's contract, but it's not out outrageous and he is signed for two more seasons.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the White Sox traded Teahen. He really didn't fit in with the Sox in 2010 as management expected he would.

russ99
11-03-2010, 12:22 PM
Not this **** again.

Slugging % is a good metric for a hitter. HRs are better than triples, which are better than doubles, which are better than singles. Therefore, HRs are weighted more highly than triples, which are weighted more highly than doubles, which in turn are weighted more highly than singles. You may not like reality, but there it is.

OPS is ALSO a good metric for a hitter's ability. Get over it, OK?



No, it's not a good metric for a hitter:

Essentially, HRs = 4 points, 3B = 3 points 2B = 2 points and 1B = 1 points.

So someone like Omar who's a singles hitter has to hit 4 times more singles than a homerun hitter hits homers to have an equal OPS number.

What's worse is OPS is misleading since it's on-base percentage (which runs .3 to .4's for top performers) plus slugging (which runs .5 to .6 for top performers) - so slugging is weighted higher than on-base percentage when you combine them.

If you want to compare sluggers, OPS is fine. But to compare a home run hitter vs. a non-home run hitter or value players solely by OPS, it's patently an unfair comparison.

I prefer all 3 numbers AVG/OBP/SLG, as it tells the entire picture without elevating homerun hitters over everyone else.

khan
11-03-2010, 12:30 PM
No, it's not a good metric for a hitter:

Essentially, HRs = 4 points, 3B = 3 points 2B = 2 points and 1B = 1 points.

So someone like Omar who's a singles hitter has to hit 4 times more singles than a homerun hitter hits homers to have an equal OPS number.

What's worse is OPS is misleading since it's on-base percentage (which runs .3 to .4's for top performers) plus slugging (which runs .5 to .6 for top performers) - so slugging is weighted higher than on-base percentage when you combine them.

If you want to compare sluggers, OPS is fine. But to compare a home run hitter vs. a non-home run hitter, or value players solely by OPS, it's patently an unfair comparison.

I prefer all 3 numbers AVG/OBP/SLG, as it tells the entire picture without elevating home run hitters over everyone else.
For ****'s sake, russ.

The object of baseball is to win by scoring more runs and/or allowing fewer than the opponent. Do you disagree?

Hence, a HR is an automatic run. It SHOULD be weighted more highly than other types of hits, because it DIRECTLY accomplishes the objective of the game.

A triple is but 90 feet away from becoming a run, which is the objective of the game. A double is 180 feet away, and a single is 270 feet away. Therefore these are ALL weighted properly in relation to each other.


You may not like the arithmetic operation of adding OBP to slg %, but since ALL players are compared using the same arithmetic operation, it IS fair. It is therefore up to the observer to bear in mind the CONTEXT of a player's OPS. [When comparing sluggers to sluggers, leadoff men to leadoff men, and so forth.]


Honestly, if you can't understand all of this, you really don't understand the game.

russ99
11-03-2010, 01:15 PM
For ****'s sake, russ.

The object of baseball is to win by scoring more runs and/or allowing fewer than the opponent. Do you disagree?

Hence, a HR is an automatic run. It SHOULD be weighted more highly than other types of hits, because it DIRECTLY accomplishes the objective of the game.

A triple is but 90 feet away from becoming a run, which is the objective of the game. A double is 180 feet away, and a single is 270 feet away. Therefore these are ALL weighted properly in relation to each other.

You may not like the arithmetic operation of adding OBP to slg %, but since ALL players are compared using the same arithmetic operation, it IS fair. It is therefore up to the observer to bear in mind the CONTEXT of a player's OPS. [When comparing sluggers to sluggers, leadoff men to leadoff men, and so forth.]

Honestly, if you can't understand all of this, you really don't understand the game.

Totally understand, but I don't agree that power hitters are better than all other hitters, which is what OPS is often used to prop up.

Case in point: Quentin had a OPS of .821 last year and Rios had a OPS of .791. So by that reasoning, should someone assume Quentin is a better hitter or even a better player that Rios? I sure don't.

khan
11-03-2010, 01:31 PM
Totally understand, but I don't agree that power hitters are better than all other hitters, which is what OPS is often used to prop up.
Actually, you don't.

No one with a 3-digit IQ makes this argument. Anyone that has ANY understanding of the game compares players within context. [Bench players to bench players; sluggers to sluggers; leadoff men to leadoff men, and so on.]

Case in point: Quentin had a OPS of .821 last year and Rios had a OPS of .791. So by that reasoning, should someone assume Quentin is a better hitter or even a better player that Rios? I sure don't.
You're arguing the entirely wrong thing, and missing the point entirely. NO ONE stated "OPS dictates which player is better."

I stated, "OPS is a good metric for a hitter."


You're arguing that OPS isn't a good metric for a hitter because it isn't fair to non-sluggers. This is akin to stating "Measuring height isn't fair, because the average woman in the US is only 63 inches tall, while the average man is 69 inches tall." Or that "rate of return isn't fair when comparing investments, because domestic equities have returned better than domestic muni bond funds." Or that "reading comprehension tests aren't fair because most infants can't read."


See, you confuse context with an absolute:

Of course most men will be taller than most women, but a woman who is 67 inches tall is pretty tall. Most [good] equities funds will have a higher rate of return than most muni bond funds, but a return of ~5% is pretty good for a muni bond fund. Most 2 year olds can't read their own names, but an adult should be able to read at an 8th grade level or higher. Therefore, concepts such as "height," "rate of return," or "reading comprehension" ARE good metrics within their own realms.


In the same way, an OPS of .750 sucks for a ****ty DH like the one you supported all season long, but an OPS of .750 for a bench player might be pretty good [if that player does some other things well].


Remember: Context. If you can't use your grey matter to adjudicate that, then again, you don't understand the game.

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-03-2010, 01:50 PM
Is it necessary to question someone's intelligence because they disagree with you over interpreting stats. Seems a bit harsh.

DirtySox
11-03-2010, 01:52 PM
What's worse is OPS is misleading since it's on-base percentage (which runs .3 to .4's for top performers) plus slugging (which runs .5 to .6 for top performers) - so slugging is weighted higher than on-base percentage when you combine them.


You should start considering wOBA instead. (if you don't already)

tm1119
11-03-2010, 01:57 PM
Totally understand, but I don't agree that power hitters are better than all other hitters, which is what OPS is often used to prop up.

Case in point: Quentin had a OPS of .821 last year and Rios had a OPS of .791. So by that reasoning, should someone assume Quentin is a better hitter or even a better player that Rios? I sure don't.

Quentin had a higher obp and slg % while having only 1 less rbi and about(on my phone so hard to get exact #'s) 15 less runs all while having about 85 less PA's. OPS is an offensive metric and given those #'s, yes, Quentin was a slightly more productive offensive player when on the field. The only thing Rios managed to do better was hit singles more often that did not produce runs in anyway, only gave him a decent, yet empty average. So your argument still holds no weight.

russ99
11-03-2010, 02:06 PM
Actually, you don't.

No one with a 3-digit IQ makes this argument. Anyone that has ANY understanding of the game compares players within context. [Bench players to bench players; sluggers to sluggers; leadoff men to leadoff men, and so on.]


You're arguing the entirely wrong thing, and missing the point entirely. NO ONE stated "OPS dictates which player is better."

I stated, "OPS is a good metric for a hitter."


You're arguing that OPS isn't a good metric for a hitter because it isn't fair to non-sluggers. This is akin to stating "Measuring height isn't fair, because the average woman in the US is only 63 inches tall, while the average man is 69 inches tall." Or that "rate of return isn't fair when comparing investments, because domestic equities have returned better than domestic muni bond funds." Or that "reading comprehension tests aren't fair because most infants can't read."


See, you confuse context with an absolute:

Of course most men will be taller than most women, but a woman who is 67 inches tall is pretty tall. Most [good] equities funds will have a higher rate of return than most muni bond funds, but a return of ~5% is pretty good for a muni bond fund. Most 2 year olds can't read their own names, but an adult should be able to read at an 8th grade level or higher. Therefore, concepts such as "height," "rate of return," or "reading comprehension" ARE good metrics within their own realms.


In the same way, an OPS of .750 sucks for a ****ty DH like the one you supported all season long, but an OPS of .750 for a bench player might be pretty good [if that player does some other things well].


Remember: Context. If you can't use your grey matter to adjudicate that, then again, you don't understand the game.

The context I gave in my original post is that it's foolish to determine that Vizquel is a good hitter or not based on his OPS.

The inequality of comparing unlike players with OPS has been the only point of argument from the beginning. So context has been firmly in mind from the beginning, especially when the context is "who's better, Jones or Pierre".

And I refuse to believe Quentin is a better hitter than Rios. He may be a better "run producer", but not hitter.

khan
11-03-2010, 02:44 PM
The context I gave in my original post is that it's foolish to determine that Vizquel is a good hitter or not based on his OPS.
Actually, you made another silly statement about how OPS isn't a good metric because he only hit 2 HR, which is still pretty dumb.

There are many ways for Vizquel to increase his OPS. Vizquel is free to hit more doubles or triples to increase his Slg%. He's also free to not swing at letter-high fastballs to increase his OBP.

OPS therefore remains a good and valid metric for a hitter. Our expectations for the OPS for HIS type of player merely have to be different for a different type of player. And this is true for pretty much ANY stat in baseball.

The inequality of comparing unlike players with OPS has been the only point of argument from the beginning.
Actually, this is really short-sighted at best. Almost all stats aren't designed to compare unlike players. They're TOOLS designed to measure a player in one area of the game.

Based on your silly statement about "comparing unlike players," would Sabbathia's(sp?) lack of Saves or Holds make him a poor pitcher? Or Trevor Hoffman's lack of shutouts make HIM a poor pitcher?

For that matter, how about OUTSIDE the realm of MLB? How about Walter Payton's lack of QB sacks? Did that make him a ****ty football player? Or Kareem Abdul-Jabaar(sp?) and his lack of 3-pointers converted? Did that make HIM a ****ty basketball player?

Perhaps to someone with abject myopia, but to those who understand context, using the wrong metric to compare unlike players is akin to trying to drive a screw using a rubber mallet.

And I refuse to believe Quentin is a better hitter than Rios. He may be a better "run producer", but not hitter.
Who said anything about Quentin/Rios?

khan
11-03-2010, 02:55 PM
Is it necessary to question someone's intelligence because they disagree with you over interpreting stats. Seems a bit harsh.
I apologize. Russ merely comes here and makes silly/myopic statements every now and then. Of course I don't think he's stupid, but based on his statements, I think he might have a comprehension gap with respect to the game.


Here, he's confusing a metric on it's absolute terms, rather than on relative terms, while misunderstanding HOW to use a metric appropriately, by attempting to compare unlike players to each other. Apparently, he doesn't understand the concept of context.

khan
11-03-2010, 02:58 PM
You should start considering wOBA instead. (if you don't already)

Quentin had a higher obp and slg % while having only 1 less rbi and about(on my phone so hard to get exact #'s) 15 less runs all while having about 85 less PA's. OPS is an offensive metric and given those #'s, yes, Quentin was a slightly more productive offensive player when on the field. The only thing Rios managed to do better was hit singles more often that did not produce runs in anyway, only gave him a decent, yet empty average. So your argument still holds no weight.

Thanks to both of you. Well-stated.

Foulke You
11-03-2010, 03:10 PM
For my part, I was STUNNED at what Abuelo Omar provided in 2010, to tell you the truth. Going forward, I don't mind him being a part of the 2011 SOX, provided that he isn't a regular starter, but rather used more sparingly than in 2010.
Agreed. My hope is that we won't need him for 350ABs like we did in 2010. Providing everyone stays healthy, we likely shouldn't. There also is never a need for Omar to play against left handed pitchers since he was God awful batting right handed last year. (.207 avg) I just want him to play the original role we envisioned for him. A solid defensive backup infielder to give some rest here and there to Beckham, Alexei, and now Morel. He also has value as a pinch runner.

spawn
11-03-2010, 03:40 PM
Is it necessary to question someone's intelligence because they disagree with you over interpreting stats. Seems a bit harsh.

:welcome:

Lip Man 1
11-03-2010, 04:07 PM
"He's confusing a metric on it's absolute terms, rather than on relative terms, while misunderstanding HOW to use a metric appropriately, by attempting to compare unlike players to each other."

My brain hurts...

http://hauntingthunder.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mr-gumby.jpg

Lip

ChiSoxGal85
11-03-2010, 04:43 PM
My brain hurts...

http://hauntingthunder.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mr-gumby.jpg

Lip

...it will have to come out! :wink:

/hijack.

russ99
11-03-2010, 07:32 PM
I apologize. Russ merely comes here and makes silly/myopic statements every now and then. Of course I don't think he's stupid, but based on his statements, I think he might have a comprehension gap with respect to the game.


I'm no more myopic than anyone else on this board. And don't apologize for me like I'm a 6 year old.

I'm not the one using OPS to say one dissimilar player is better than another around here. Lots of others are doing that for me.

The point of the game is to win, home runs or not. Some people can't accept that.

kufram
11-04-2010, 05:29 AM
I think Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others have an awful lot to answer for. The obsession with home runs is at the top of the list. I like home runs as much as anybody but nobody is hitting 50 anymore, let alone 70. I'd always go for a guy that knows how to use his bat situationally, hit the other way for example, and that drives in 100 runs (I don't care what OPS he's got) than a slugger that has fat slugging stats but doesn't help in any other way.

Who was it that said about base hits "it ain't how many you hit, it's when you hit 'em". Might have been Casey Stengel. A single that drives in the winning run in a game is worth exactly as much as a home run that drives in the winning run. 1 game.

Rohan
11-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Welcome back Mr. HOF

tick53
11-06-2010, 08:58 AM
I'll bet the Minnesota Twins are worried now! C'mon everybody. I like Omar as much as the next guy but if he's starting, which he will, then it's a sad situation. Personally, I sick to death of White Sox reclamation projects and trying to squeeze some life out of players who are getting too old.

:hawk

"Let me tell you something Stone Pony.
The White Sox are not afraid to start
young players"

Hawk Harrelson. 2009 season.

DrCrawdad
11-06-2010, 09:03 AM
I'll bet the Minnesota Twins are worried now! C'mon everybody. I like Omar as much as the next guy but if he's starting, which he will, then it's a sad situation. Personally, I sick to death of White Sox reclamation projects and trying to squeeze some life out of players who are getting too old.

:hawk

"Let me tell you something Stone Pony.
The White Sox are not afraid to start
young players"

Hawk Harrelson. 2009 season.




I do not believe that Omar was signed either this year or last to be a starter. He's a utility infielder and as such he's good in that role, IMHO.

tick53
11-06-2010, 09:47 AM
I do not believe that Omar was signed either this year or last to be a starter. He's a utility infielder and as such he's good in that role, IMHO.

As a bench player, he's fine and a good guy to have around. Third base is a power position and we need that.