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BainesHOF
10-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Thought I'd cap the season by issuing grades:

Paul Konerko (A+) - The captain's best, most consistent season.

Alexei Ramirez (A-) - Overcame a slow start to put together a strong year offensively and defensively.

Ramon Casto (A-) - Terrific offensively with 8 HRs in 115 ABs in a backup role, but his pitch calling was sometimes questionable.

Freddy Garcia (A-) - Tough to beat 12-6 from your fifth starter.

Chris Sale (A-) - Was terrific in limited, late-season action.

Alex Rios (B+) - A good season, but faded down the stretch.

Juan Pierre (B+) - Started slowly, but then became valuable with his 68 steals and surprisingly-decent defense.

Edwin Jackson (B+) - Pitched well when we were still in the race.

John Danks (B+) - Tough to argue with a 15-11 record and 3.72 ERA, but had some rough starts down the stretch when we needed him to stand tall.

Matt Thornton (B+) - Awesome in an All-Star first half, but then experienced some performance and health issues in the second half.

Omar Vizquel (B) - Still effective, especially with the glove, even at his age, and had an obvious influence on Ramirez.

Andruw Jones (B-) - Hit 19 homers with 48 RBI with his big swing in 278 ABs and played generally solid defense in his part-time role.

Mark Buehrle (C+) - Took the ball every start, but his 13-13 record was mediocre.

Gavin Floyd (C+) - The offensive let him down quite a bit so he should have wound up better with a better record than his 10-13 with a 4.08 ERA, but he struggled himself at times, too, especially early in the season.

Carlos Quentin (C+) - Decent stats, but unreliable for long stretches.

J.J. Putz (C+) - Pitched great for a long time before his injury setback, but only recorded 3 saves in 7 opportunites.

Tony Pena (C+) - Valuable in his versatile role.

Sergio Santos (C+) - Came out of nowhere to contribute. A fine first half was followed by some shaky outings in the second half.

Bobby Jenks (C) - Converted 27 saves in 31 chances, but blew some big games and virtually every appearance was an adventure. Weight has led to injuries.

Dayan Viciedo (C) - Shows promise with the bat but must become much more selective. Weak glove.

Scott Linebrink (C-) - Decent job in garbage situations.

Brent Lillibridge (C-) - Was a terror at the plate when recalled, but then returned to normal.

Gordon Beckham (D) - Terrible at the plate for much of the season and surprisingly shakey in the field with the exception of turning the double play.

A.J. Pierzynski (D) - Horrible offensively when it counted and hardly threw anybody out, but at least still called a great game.

Jake Peavy (D) - A disappointing 7-6 with a 4.63 ERA before his injury. Will he ever be effective again?

Mark Kotsay (F) - Poor numbers despite batting mostly against righties.

Mark Teahen (F) - Brutal defensively and weak offensively. This one falls on Kenny Williams.

Manny Ramirez (F) - 1 home run and 2 RBI in 69 ABs. Really?

LoveYourSuit
10-05-2010, 02:44 PM
Thought I'd cap the season by issuing grades:

Paul Konerko (A+) - The captain's best, most consistent season.

Alexei Ramirez (A-) - Overcame a slow start to put together a strong year offensively and defensively.

Ramon Casto (A-) - Terrific offensively with 8 HRs in 115 ABs in a backup role, but his pitch calling was sometimes questionable.

Freddy Garcia (A-) - Tough to beat 12-6 from your fifth starter.

Chris Sale (A-) - Was terrific in limited, late-season action.

Alex Rios (B+) - A good season, but faded down the stretch.

Juan Pierre (B+) - Started slowly, but then became valuable with his 68 steals and surprisingly-decent defense.

Edwin Jackson (B+) - Pitched well when we were still in the race.

John Danks (B+) - Tough to argue with a 15-11 record and 3.72 ERA, but had some rough starts down the stretch when we needed him to stand tall.

Matt Thornton (B+) - Awesome in an All-Star first half, but then experienced some performance and health issues in the second half.

Omar Vizquel (B) - Still effective, especially with the glove, even at his age, and had an obvious influence on Ramirez.

Andruw Jones (B-) - Hit 19 homers with 48 RBI with his big swing in 278 ABs and played generally solid defense in his part-time role.

Mark Buehrle (C+) - Took the ball every start, but his 13-13 record was mediocre.

Gavin Floyd (C+) - The offensive let him down quite a bit so he should have wound up better with a better record than his 10-13 with a 4.08 ERA, but he struggled himself at times, too, especially early in the season.

Carlos Quentin (C+) - Decent stats, but unreliable for long stretches.

J.J. Putz (C+) - Pitched great for a long time before his injury setback, but only recorded 3 saves in 7 opportunites.

Tony Pena (C+) - Valuable in his versatile role.

Sergio Santos (C+) - Came out of nowhere to contribute. A fine first half was followed by some shaky outings in the second half.

Bobby Jenks (C) - Converted 27 saves in 31 chances, but blew some big games and virtually every appearance was an adventure. Weight has led to injuries.

Dayan Viciedo (C) - Shows promise with the bat but must become much more selective. Weak glove.

Scott Linebrink (C-) - Decent job in garbage situations.

Brent Lillibridge (C-) - Was a terror at the plate when recalled, but then returned to normal.

Gordon Beckham (D) - Terrible at the plate for much of the season and surprisingly shakey in the field with the exception of turning the double play.

A.J. Pierzynski (D) - Horrible offensively when it counted and hardly threw anybody out, but at least still called a great game.

Jake Peavy (D) - A disappointing 7-6 with a 4.63 ERA before his injury. Will he ever be effective again?

Mark Kotsay (F) - Poor numbers despite batting mostly against righties.

Mark Teahen (F) - Brutal defensively and weak offensively. This one falls on Kenny Williams.

Manny Ramirez (F) - 1 home run and 2 RBI in 69 ABs. Really?



Get ready to be torched about Beckham. He's already acheived folk hero status I guess because of the hair or the stupid "Bacon" nickname.

Although I agree 100%. He and Peavy were my two biggest dissapointments this year. I honestly felt going into the year each would anchor each side of our game. I thought very highly of Gordon. But he showed me nothing special. Might be way too soon, hope he learned something out of this season and kicks ass next year.

russ99
10-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Thought I'd cap the season by issuing grades:

Paul Konerko (A+) - The captain's best, most consistent season.

Alexei Ramirez (A-) - Overcame a slow start to put together a strong year offensively and defensively.

Ramon Casto (A-) - Terrific offensively with 8 HRs in 115 ABs in a backup role, but his pitch calling was sometimes questionable.

Freddy Garcia (A-) - Tough to beat 12-6 from your fifth starter.

Chris Sale (A-) - Was terrific in limited, late-season action.

Alex Rios (B+) - A good season, but faded down the stretch.

Juan Pierre (B+) - Started slowly, but then became valuable with his 68 steals and surprisingly-decent defense.

Edwin Jackson (B+) - Pitched well when we were still in the race.

John Danks (B+) - Tough to argue with a 15-11 record and 3.72 ERA, but had some rough starts down the stretch when we needed him to stand tall.

Matt Thornton (B+) - Awesome in an All-Star first half, but then experienced some performance and health issues in the second half.

Omar Vizquel (B) - Still effective, especially with the glove, even at his age, and had an obvious influence on Ramirez.

Andruw Jones (B-) - Hit 19 homers with 48 RBI with his big swing in 278 ABs and played generally solid defense in his part-time role.

Mark Buehrle (C+) - Took the ball every start, but his 13-13 record was mediocre.

Gavin Floyd (C+) - The offensive let him down quite a bit so he should have wound up better with a better record than his 10-13 with a 4.08 ERA, but he struggled himself at times, too, especially early in the season.

Carlos Quentin (C+) - Decent stats, but unreliable for long stretches.

J.J. Putz (C+) - Pitched great for a long time before his injury setback, but only recorded 3 saves in 7 opportunites.

Tony Pena (C+) - Valuable in his versatile role.

Sergio Santos (C+) - Came out of nowhere to contribute. A fine first half was followed by some shaky outings in the second half.

Bobby Jenks (C) - Converted 27 saves in 31 chances, but blew some big games and virtually every appearance was an adventure. Weight has led to injuries.

Dayan Viciedo (C) - Shows promise with the bat but must become much more selective. Weak glove.

Scott Linebrink (C-) - Decent job in garbage situations.

Brent Lillibridge (C-) - Was a terror at the plate when recalled, but then returned to normal.

Gordon Beckham (D) - Terrible at the plate for much of the season and surprisingly shakey in the field with the exception of turning the double play.

A.J. Pierzynski (D) - Horrible offensively when it counted and hardly threw anybody out, but at least still called a great game.

Jake Peavy (D) - A disappointing 7-6 with a 4.63 ERA before his injury. Will he ever be effective again?

Mark Kotsay (F) - Poor numbers despite batting mostly against righties.

Mark Teahen (F) - Brutal defensively and weak offensively. This one falls on Kenny Williams.

Manny Ramirez (F) - 1 home run and 2 RBI in 69 ABs. Really?

Looks spot on, except for Jones (who I'd give a C-/D+), who disappeared in May and June leading to overuse of Kotsay.

Other less major changes I'd make:
A.J. (C-) called good games and warmed up offensively the 2nd half.
Quentin (C-) - look past the HRs and he had a really bad season
Jenks (D) - decent early, ineffective and on leave mid-season, hurt late
Teahen (D+) - poor defense, but his non-HR hitting numbers are decent compared to Jones and Quentin.

soltrain21
10-05-2010, 02:55 PM
Those are pretty good, but I'd give Quentin and Jenks both a D.

Chez
10-05-2010, 03:03 PM
Santos had some rough patches late, but his overall season is better than a C+ -- especially when Linebrink received a C-. I'd give Sergio a B+. And I think both A.J. and Beckham deserve C+'s

WhiteSox5187
10-05-2010, 03:05 PM
Those are pretty good, but I'd give Quentin and Jenks both a D.

I agree, I'd also give AJ a C. He calls a good game and is solid defensively, oh and he hit .300 in the second half. I'd also give Beckham a C+, he improved defensively over the course of the season and hit .310 in the second half with an .877 OPS. Considering he was hitting .205 around June to finish up with a .250 average is pretty impressive (he would have finished higher if not for an injury plagued September). The people who are critical of him I guess expect a .300 average with 30 HRs every year.

Hitmen77
10-05-2010, 03:31 PM
I agree, I'd also give AJ a C. He calls a good game and is solid defensively, oh and he hit .300 in the second half. I'd also give Beckham a C+, he improved defensively over the course of the season and hit .310 in the second half with an .877 OPS. Considering he was hitting .205 around June to finish up with a .250 average is pretty impressive (he would have finished higher if not for an injury plagued September). The people who are critical of him I guess expect a .300 average with 30 HRs every year.


....and apparently expect/demand that in a player's first full season too.

C+ sounds about right to me. Bumps in the road for a new player are common. He did improve in the 2nd half and definitely for 2011 we need him to be productive the entire year.

LITTLE NELL
10-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Can't argue with your grades except for Peavy, he was starting to
come around before his injury. I would give him a C or an incomplete.

LoveYourSuit
10-05-2010, 05:35 PM
I agree, I'd also give AJ a C. He calls a good game and is solid defensively, oh and he hit .300 in the second half. I'd also give Beckham a C+, he improved defensively over the course of the season and hit .310 in the second half with an .877 OPS. Considering he was hitting .205 around June to finish up with a .250 average is pretty impressive (he would have finished higher if not for an injury plagued September). The people who are critical of him I guess expect a .300 average with 30 HRs every year.


Well, I do believe the games in April and May count too.

Same goes for Alexei. He needs to get the memo. At least Beckham has only done it one season. Alexei appears to be a trend.

jdm2662
10-05-2010, 05:44 PM
Well, I do believe the games in April and May count too.

Same goes for Alexei. He needs to get the memo. At least Beckham has only done it one season. Alexei appears to be a trend.

Don't forget Pierre, too. He always starts slow.

If it weren't for Danks and Freddy along with Konerko and Rios, I don't even want to know what the first two months would've been like...

cards press box
10-05-2010, 06:51 PM
Get ready to be torched about Beckham.

The torching should not be a surprise, as the grade is about 2 grades too low. Juan Pierre got a B+ and rightly so because, as you point out, even though he started slowly, he improved offensively and played good defense. Does that exact same description fit Beckham? Beckham's offensive numbers in the second half were excellent and he played great defense at second base -- a new position for him and a key one on the diamond -- all year.

D is way too low. B or B- sounds more like it.

WhiteSox5187
10-05-2010, 06:59 PM
Well, I do believe the games in April and May count too.

Same goes for Alexei. He needs to get the memo. At least Beckham has only done it one season. Alexei appears to be a trend.

Alexei has started slow every year but always winds up hitting around .280 with 20 HRs and 80 RBIs, I'll take that kind of production. Beckham was in his first major league season and learning his third new position in two seasons. Not everyone is going to come out of the gate hitting .400

Daver
10-05-2010, 07:01 PM
The only grade to me that counts is a team grade, it is a simple pass/fail grade.

They failed.

1989
10-05-2010, 07:16 PM
the only grade to me that counts is a team grade, it is a simple pass/fail grade.

They failed.

+1

DumpJerry
10-05-2010, 07:19 PM
The only grade to me that counts is a team grade, it is a simple pass/fail grade.

They failed.
But...but.....they outdid the pythagorean thing (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2010.shtml) by two games! What else matters?

Domeshot17
10-05-2010, 08:03 PM
I agree with mosts the grades, this is an end result. Beckham had such a low F in the first half he pulled himself up to a D. He is a nice player, but I think this year was an indication he simply can't be a cornerstone, best hitter in the lineup type player. I heard Evan Longoria comparisons before the year, and some crazy post referred to him as Jeter like. I think he is going to end up a better version of Howie Kendrick. Good not great average, flashes of power but sub 15 homers, 25-30 doubles, high 700-low 800 OPS. Solid player but not one of the big 3 you count on in the lineup.

I also want to know when AJ started playing good D? I think his game calling was bad this year and I think that showed with the inconsistency of the SP. Also, did AJ throw out a runner this year? I know at times our staff gets lazy holding guys on, but AJ was really bad this year, of qualified catchers, he is bottom 4 or 5 in both CS percentage and catcher ERA

Brian26
10-05-2010, 08:22 PM
Santos had some rough patches late, but his overall season is better than a C+ -- especially when Linebrink received a C-. I'd give Sergio a B+.

The 2nd half Sergio was a completely different pitcher than the guy we saw in April and May. I thought he was our future closer at one point, and he came down to earth pretty hard. I think C+ is a good grade for him.

MetroPD
10-05-2010, 09:38 PM
Those are pretty good, but I'd give Quentin and Jenks both a D.
i agree with this.

FielderJones
10-05-2010, 10:23 PM
Also, did AJ throw out a runner this year?

Yes. He threw out 27 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pierza.01-field.shtml) of them. In fact 2010 was his best CS% as a member of the White Sox.

twinsuck
10-06-2010, 12:32 AM
Yes. He threw out 27 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pierza.01-field.shtml) of them. In fact 2010 was his best CS% as a member of the White Sox.

I was going to say I thought it seemed like he was throwing out more than usual compared to other years....

Bobby Thigpen
10-06-2010, 12:33 AM
Bobby Jenks (C)Weight has led to injuries.
I grow really tired of this line of thinking. Is he overweight? Yes. Does his weight help him? Probably not, but, it's not the sole reason he gets hurt. Saying it is is a lazy way out to explaining the problem. If weight leads to injuries, what's Peavy's problem?

IIRC, didn't he come in in the best shape he's been in in his career so far this spring?

ghostface36
10-06-2010, 02:06 AM
I think beckham has redemption season next year it seemed like they did alot with his swing as the pitchers had adjusted to beckhams tendencies

Sam Spade
10-06-2010, 02:20 AM
B+ for Jackson seems awfully high. Gordon should be a C. Your expectations were likely unrealistic.

SluggersAway
10-06-2010, 09:22 AM
The only grade to me that counts is a team grade, it is a simple pass/fail grade.

They failed.

Sounds like myopia, you may need eye surgery to broaden your perspective.

doublem23
10-06-2010, 09:25 AM
I agree with mosts the grades, this is an end result. Beckham had such a low F in the first half he pulled himself up to a D. He is a nice player, but I think this year was an indication he simply can't be a cornerstone, best hitter in the lineup type player. I heard Evan Longoria comparisons before the year, and some crazy post referred to him as Jeter like. I think he is going to end up a better version of Howie Kendrick. Good not great average, flashes of power but sub 15 homers, 25-30 doubles, high 700-low 800 OPS. Solid player but not one of the big 3 you count on in the lineup.


He's played in 1 full MLB season.

soxfanatlanta
10-06-2010, 09:29 AM
I grow really tired of this line of thinking. Is he overweight? Yes. Does his weight help him? Probably not, but, it's not the sole reason he gets hurt. Saying it is is a lazy way out to explaining the problem. If weight leads to injuries, what's Peavy's problem?


Where did the OP write Jenks was lazy?

Rdy2PlayBall
10-06-2010, 09:37 AM
He's played in 1 full MLB season.Internet scouts are a new breed. They can predict a players career after seeing only a few ABs.

AGAIN, I have to change a post to teal because people have absolutely no common sense. Cool.

LoveYourSuit
10-06-2010, 10:04 AM
Internet scouts are a new breed. They can predict a players career after seeing only a few ABs.


GMAB :rolleyes:


800+ ABs is only a few?

That's very close to two full seasons.

I will agree with the poster. What I have seen so far shows me nothing that he will turn into an elite player in this game or a cornerstone for this franchise. I think many thought of him this highly.

Howie Kendrick is a fair comparison at this point. But many like me wanted a guy closer to Kinsler.

Does he still have a chance, hell yes. Have to cut down on those strikeouts. Striking out 1/4 of the time you go up there is not going to get it done. Especially when you have very average power.

LoveYourSuit
10-06-2010, 10:08 AM
B+ for Jackson seems awfully high. Gordon should be a C. Your expectations were likely unrealistic.


Awfully high?

He went 4-2 with a 3.24 ERA in 11 starts.

With just a bit more run support and a bullpen who could close games, he easily should have won a few more starts.

77Ks in 72 IPs and only 18 BBs (something everyone was concerned about).


B+ is very fair.


I will argue that he was our best starting pitcher going down the stretch.

I'm excited to have this guy for another full season next year.

Goose
10-06-2010, 10:32 AM
The 2nd half Sergio was a completely different pitcher than the guy we saw in April and May. I thought he was our future closer at one point, and he came down to earth pretty hard. I think C+ is a good grade for him.

I think people are being a bit hard on Sergio. The guy is a converted SS-to-P, what, in 2009? I would expect the guy to have slowed down a bit, but he sure showed promise when fresh...give it some time to get used to the role, people. It's not like he's been doing this is whole career. B+/A- is what I would give him.

Huisj
10-06-2010, 11:15 AM
GMAB :rolleyes:


800+ ABs is only a few?

That's very close to two full seasons.

I will agree with the poster. What I have seen so far shows me nothing that he will turn into an elite player in this game or a cornerstone for this franchise. I think many thought of him this highly.

Howie Kendrick is a fair comparison at this point. But many like me wanted a guy closer to Kinsler.

Does he still have a chance, hell yes. Have to cut down on those strikeouts. Striking out 1/4 of the time you go up there is not going to get it done. Especially when you have very average power.

Beckham just turned 24 a few weeks ago, right when he went out for good with his hand injury. So all of his stats are through age 23. What had Kinsler done through age 23 in his career? He was in his second third month in the big leagues. For that entire first season in which he turned 24 less than half way through, he posted an .801 OPS with 14 homers and 55 RBI in 120 games playing in Texas. At age 22, Beckham put up an .808 OPS with 14 homers and 63 RBI in 103 games.

Lets see what Beckham can do at age 24 before saying he's clearly not Ian Kinsler. Also, Kinsler only hit .263 his second year in the league, he only hit .253 last year, and he only hit 9 homers this year. It's not like he's been the ultimate model of superstar consistency throughout his career.

Domeshot17
10-06-2010, 11:17 AM
He's played in 1 full MLB season.

I am not saying I think he is going to be an eternal bust or anything, but I just don't think the skillset is there to be ELITE. I was more predicting him to be a borderline all star player. I don't see how I was cutting him down there, more commenting that comparing to Longoria and Jeter or Utley this early was nuts.

Also, I know this wasn't YOUR POINT, but to others....How is about 800 ABs not enough to judge Gordon but 900 was enough to judge BA? If Gordon starts slow through may next year should we write him off? I know BA was never going to make it, not harping there, just funny how that works out. Becks has clearly shown far more promise.

Bobby Thigpen
10-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Where did the OP write Jenks was lazy?
He didn't. I was saying that saying Jenks' injuries were a result of him being fat was a lazy way to explain the injury.

LITTLE NELL
10-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Beckham just turned 24 a few weeks ago, right when he went out for good with his hand injury. So all of his stats are through age 23. What had Kinsler done through age 23 in his career? He was in his second third month in the big leagues. For that entire first season in which he turned 24 less than half way through, he posted an .801 OPS with 14 homers and 55 RBI in 120 games playing in Texas. At age 22, Beckham put up an .808 OPS with 14 homers and 63 RBI in 103 games.

Lets see what Beckham can do at age 24 before saying he's clearly not Ian Kinsler. Also, Kinsler only hit .263 his second year in the league, he only hit .253 last year, and he only hit 9 homers this year. It's not like he's been the ultimate model of superstar consistency throughout his career.

We all thought we had another Ryne Sandberg with Beckham and the expectations may have been too high.
It is too early to say he won't be another Ryno but I'll take a guy who gives us very good defense with 15 HRs and 70 RBIs.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-06-2010, 02:02 PM
GMAB :rolleyes:
800+ ABs is only a few?
In no way was my post meant to say Beckham has only had a few ABs. I was saying that it is all that is required for many people to think they've seen enough. So, SARCASTICALLY, I replied that all you need is a few ABs, so a year is definitely enough... not that complicated of a post IMO. After one outing by Hudson, he was "all hype for nothing". I'm sure many other players on the Sox got the "bust" treatment after their first 0-4, 2 strikeout debut. It happens all the time.

wilburaga
10-06-2010, 02:27 PM
J.J. Putz (C+) - Pitched great for a long time before his injury setback, but only recorded 3 saves in 7 opportunites.

Sergio Santos (C+) - Came out of nowhere to contribute. A fine first half was followed by some shaky outings in the second half.

I'd give both J.J. and Sergio solid Bs. After all, J.J. did set the franchise record for consecutive scoreless appearances (25).

TommyGavinFloyd
10-15-2010, 06:34 PM
Final grades on ESPN Chicago:

http://espn.go.com/chicago/polls?id=5684787

Tragg
10-16-2010, 09:29 AM
Final grades on ESPN Chicago:

http://espn.go.com/chicago/polls?id=5684787


I like how he gives Cooper a B for "working magic" on a pitcher that we paid our best prospect, plus 2 other pitchers plus an additional $8 million for.
Nice.

soltrain21
10-16-2010, 10:35 AM
I like how he gives Cooper a B for "working magic" on a pitcher that we paid our best prospect, plus 2 other pitchers plus an additional $8 million for.
Nice.

Or that AJ was about what we expected? Um, not quite.

Edit - Jeez. Doug was pretty generous with all the grades.

wassagstdu
10-16-2010, 10:39 AM
I think beckham has redemption season next year it seemed like they did alot with his swing as the pitchers had adjusted to beckhams tendencies

No, that is not what I saw. Beckham early in the season messed with his swing and put in a huge hitch, ostensibly to help him hit the off-speed pitch. It didn't work and ruined his first half. Later in the season he lost the hitch, shortened his swing, and briefly returned to something like his 2009 performance ... until his season was essentially ended by getting hit in the hand.

I do agree that we can expect redemption in 2011, and would look for an even better season than 2009 from Beckham.

SCCWS
10-16-2010, 11:58 AM
No, that is not what I saw. Beckham early in the season messed with his swing and put in a huge hitch, ostensibly to help him hit the off-speed pitch. It didn't work and ruined his first half. Later in the season he lost the hitch, shortened his swing, and briefly returned to something like his 2009 performance ... until his season was essentially ended by getting hit in the hand.

I do agree that we can expect redemption in 2011, and would look for an even better season than 2009 from Beckham.

We all hope Gordon will put up solid and consistent numbers in 2011. But he was basically a .250 hitter this season who struck out a lot for a middle infielder. The hope is the July/August Beckham is the 2011 player and not the April-June one. But in 2009 he was also a .250 hitter for June, August and Sept. He had an incredible July which boosted his average to .270.
Basically he had been a great July hitter both years and up and down the rest of each season.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 03:23 PM
Castro A+

I find it hilarious how Omar has brainwashed everyone into thinking that a .673 OPS from third base is not only acceptable but praiseworthy.

Boondock Saint
10-16-2010, 03:44 PM
Castro A+

I find it hilarious how Omar has brainwashed everyone into thinking that a .673 OPS from third base is not only acceptable but praiseworthy.

I think it's hilarious how quickly some people forget how nice it is to have a 3B who doesn't stop balls from getting past him with his face. Omar was one of the 5 most important members of our team last season.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 04:00 PM
I think it's hilarious how quickly some people forget how nice it is to have a 3B who doesn't stop balls from getting past him with his face. Omar was one of the 5 most important members of our team last season.

Those 30 RBIs and 36 runs scored were so pivotal. Where the team have been without them. Maybe next year we can bring back Mike Squires to throw some leather at first.

Boondock Saint
10-16-2010, 04:07 PM
Those 30 RBIs and 36 runs scored were so pivotal. Where the team have been without them. Maybe next year we can bring back Mike Squires to throw some leather at first.

How about all of those runs he saved by playing well above average defense? Mark Teahen didn't take back the starting 3B spot for a reason.

Daver
10-16-2010, 04:12 PM
Those 30 RBIs and 36 runs scored were so pivotal. Where the team have been without them. Maybe next year we can bring back Mike Squires to throw some leather at first.

Baseball is not an offensive sport.

The Dude
10-16-2010, 04:21 PM
Thought I'd cap the season by issuing grades:

Paul Konerko (A+) - The captain's best, most consistent season.

Alexei Ramirez (A-) - Overcame a slow start to put together a strong year offensively and defensively.

Ramon Casto (A-) - Terrific offensively with 8 HRs in 115 ABs in a backup role, but his pitch calling was sometimes questionable.

Freddy Garcia (A-) - Tough to beat 12-6 from your fifth starter.

Chris Sale (A-) - Was terrific in limited, late-season action.

Alex Rios (B+) - A good season, but faded down the stretch.

Juan Pierre (B+) - Started slowly, but then became valuable with his 68 steals and surprisingly-decent defense.

Edwin Jackson (B+) - Pitched well when we were still in the race.

John Danks (B+) - Tough to argue with a 15-11 record and 3.72 ERA, but had some rough starts down the stretch when we needed him to stand tall.

Matt Thornton (B+) - Awesome in an All-Star first half, but then experienced some performance and health issues in the second half.

Omar Vizquel (B) - Still effective, especially with the glove, even at his age, and had an obvious influence on Ramirez.

Andruw Jones (B-) - Hit 19 homers with 48 RBI with his big swing in 278 ABs and played generally solid defense in his part-time role.

Mark Buehrle (C+) - Took the ball every start, but his 13-13 record was mediocre.

Gavin Floyd (C+) - The offensive let him down quite a bit so he should have wound up better with a better record than his 10-13 with a 4.08 ERA, but he struggled himself at times, too, especially early in the season.

Carlos Quentin (C+) - Decent stats, but unreliable for long stretches.

J.J. Putz (C+) - Pitched great for a long time before his injury setback, but only recorded 3 saves in 7 opportunites.

Tony Pena (C+) - Valuable in his versatile role.

Sergio Santos (C+) - Came out of nowhere to contribute. A fine first half was followed by some shaky outings in the second half.

Bobby Jenks (C) - Converted 27 saves in 31 chances, but blew some big games and virtually every appearance was an adventure. Weight has led to injuries.

Dayan Viciedo (C) - Shows promise with the bat but must become much more selective. Weak glove.

Scott Linebrink (C-) - Decent job in garbage situations.

Brent Lillibridge (C-) - Was a terror at the plate when recalled, but then returned to normal.

Gordon Beckham (D) - Terrible at the plate for much of the season and surprisingly shakey in the field with the exception of turning the double play.

A.J. Pierzynski (D) - Horrible offensively when it counted and hardly threw anybody out, but at least still called a great game.

Jake Peavy (D) - A disappointing 7-6 with a 4.63 ERA before his injury. Will he ever be effective again?

Mark Kotsay (F) - Poor numbers despite batting mostly against righties.

Mark Teahen (F) - Brutal defensively and weak offensively. This one falls on Kenny Williams.

Manny Ramirez (F) - 1 home run and 2 RBI in 69 ABs. Really?

Agree except Linebrink always gets an F for FAIL, Beckham should get a C and AJ should get a C as well.

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 06:44 PM
Baseball is not an offensive sport.

Offense is still a vital part of baseball. There should be no room in a starting lineup for players who do not contribute offensively.

Omar's biggest addition to the team was helping the development of Ramirez. He is a fine backup, a nice story, but had we had a decent offensive and defensive player at 3rd, we would have been a better team. Omar was easily replacable. We aren't talking a Joe Crede who throws the leather AND can contribute 120-150 runs between RBI's and Runs Scored.

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 06:47 PM
How about all of those runs he saved by playing well above average defense? Mark Teahen didn't take back the starting 3B spot for a reason.

Well (1) Because of Ozzie and (2) Teahen suckksssss. Omar was still one of the least efficient 3rd basemen in baseball. 3rd base needs to be an equally offensive and defensive position, and Omar offensively was one of the worst starting 3b in the league. Morel should easssilllyyy replace him.

Daver
10-16-2010, 07:41 PM
Offense is still a vital part of baseball. There should be no room in a starting lineup for players who do not contribute offensively.


That approach works fine for fantasy baseball, but that is not what we are talking about here.

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 07:55 PM
That approach works fine for fantasy baseball, but that is not what we are talking about here.

A team full of all glove, no bat players will not make the playoffs, it is a fact. You can't IGNORE offense at all costs. You need guys who can handle the bat and field their positions. Joe Crede wasn't a better player than Chipper Jones. Omar Vizquel isn't even in the conversation with a guy like Chipper (Using Chipper as a plus hitter who was solid but nothing spectacular at 3rd).

You can't devalue offense for defense, you have to treat them both equally. It is why Augie Ojeda has never been a starter. The guy was maybe the best defensive infielder in baseball for a while, and it kept him on the bench, but he couldn't hit. Playing a player strictly for D outside a position up the middle is like leading off a guy only because he is fast.

KRS1
10-16-2010, 07:58 PM
That approach works fine for fantasy baseball, but that is not what we are talking about here.

The fact that only seven regulars who had OPS+ of less than 900 remain in the playoff lineups says otherwise, and four of those have less than 1000 career plate appearances. Like it or not, you simply cannot win enough games to make the playoffs without a good lineup these days.

DumpJerry
10-16-2010, 08:07 PM
Offense is still a vital part of baseball. There should be no room in a starting lineup for players who do not contribute offensively.
You're absolutely right. Look at this crap team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2005.shtml) that ended their season with no major players over .300. The only position player over .300 had 12 plate appearances.

Daver
10-16-2010, 08:07 PM
A team full of all glove, no bat players will not make the playoffs, it is a fact. You can't IGNORE offense at all costs. You need guys who can handle the bat and field their positions. Joe Crede wasn't a better player than Chipper Jones. Omar Vizquel isn't even in the conversation with a guy like Chipper (Using Chipper as a plus hitter who was solid but nothing spectacular at 3rd).

You can't devalue offense for defense, you have to treat them both equally. It is why Augie Ojeda has never been a starter. The guy was maybe the best defensive infielder in baseball for a while, and it kept him on the bench, but he couldn't hit. Playing a player strictly for D outside a position up the middle is like leading off a guy only because he is fast.

Baseball has always been, and will always be, a defensive sport, it is designed that way, at any given time you have nine defensive players on the field vs. four offensive players in the worst case scenario. In the last forty years or so offense has made strides from things like lowering the mound, and the expansion of the leagues that has lowered the talent level across the board, most notably with pitching, but the basic surmise of the game has not changed, and never will.

Ozzie Smith started every day for a lot of seasons, and never was much of an offensive player, Ozzie Guillen was not noted for offense either, picking one utility infielder and using him as an example does nothing to add to your debate, it merely makes it easier to pick apart.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 08:20 PM
Baseball has always been, and will always be, a defensive sport, it is designed that way, at any given time you have nine defensive players on the field vs. four offensive players in the worst case scenario. In the last forty years or so offense has made strides from things like lowering the mound, and the expansion of the leagues that has lowered the talent level across the board, most notably with pitching, but the basic surmise of the game has not changed, and never will.

Ozzie Smith started every day for a lot of seasons, and never was much of an offensive player, Ozzie Guillen was not noted for offense either, picking one utility infielder and using him as an example does nothing to add to your debate, it merely makes it easier to pick apart.

And they were both shortstops. Omar at third in 2010 on the other hand is absolute bottom of the barrel offensively.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 08:22 PM
You're absolutely right. Look at this crap team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2005.shtml) that ended their season with no major players over .300. The only position player over .300 had 12 plate appearances.

Because everything is either proved or disproved by the 2005 White Sox. Regardless, there is isn't a single regular with an OPS as low as Omar's so your point is hardly proven.

Daver
10-16-2010, 08:22 PM
And they were both shortstops. Omar at third in 2010 on the other hand is absolute bottom of the barrel offensively.

Your offensive production does not dictate what position you play, to even think that it should is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard of.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Your offensive production does not dictate what position you play, to even think that it should is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard of.

You've never noticed that the players who hit the most HRs and drive in the most runs play 1B, 3B, LF and RF?

DumpJerry
10-16-2010, 08:35 PM
Because everything is either proved or disproved by the 2005 White Sox.
Well, this team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2010.shtml)made the playoffs this year with one guy over .300.
These guys (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2009.shtml) won a World Series with three over .300, but one of those three had only nine plate appearances, so it's really only two guys.
These slackers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2008.shtml) had only one guy with more than five plate appearances hit over .300 (.301). Yeah, they won a World Series, by the way.

None of these teams are named "White Sox."

Daver
10-16-2010, 08:35 PM
You've never noticed that the players who hit the most HRs and drive in the most runs play 1B, 3B, LF and RF?

But can they field their position as well?


The offense first approach brought you the 2010 White Sox with Teahen playing third base, how did that work out for them?

BringHomeDaBacon
10-16-2010, 08:42 PM
But can they field their position as well?


The offense first approach brought you the 2010 White Sox with Teahen playing third base, how did that work out for them?

Teahen sucks both offensively and defensively so I hardly consider his addition an "offense first" approach. Sure, I would prefer Omar over Teahen as well but that doesn't mean anything. I wouldn't label Omar's performance as "A+" like the writer of the linked article simply because he's not as bad as Teahen.

DirtySox
10-16-2010, 08:52 PM
Well, this team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2010.shtml)made the playoffs this year with one guy over .300.
These guys (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2009.shtml) won a World Series with three over .300, but one of those three had only nine plate appearances, so it's really only two guys.
These slackers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2008.shtml) had only one guy with more than five plate appearances hit over .300 (.301). Yeah, they won a World Series, by the way.

None of these teams are named "White Sox."


Batting average is an awesome offensive metric.

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 09:38 PM
But can they field their position as well?


The offense first approach brought you the 2010 White Sox with Teahen playing third base, how did that work out for them?

You can call the 2010 White Sox many things, offense first is not one of them. The team completely ignored offense and it cost them.

Furthermore, How did the career of Doug Mankiewictz work out? Or JT Snow? Both were tremendous defensive 1b, Doug may have been one of the best to ever play the field. However, anyone who would take either over a Ryan Howard is foolish.

Manny Ramirez was a vital part of the Red Sox runs despite being a terrible OF.

Also, with your point, Ozzie Smith was a tremendous defensive player at a defense first position. That said, he only once finished in the top 10 in MVP voting. The year he finished in the top 10 he was 2nd, 1987, by far his best OFFENSIVE season.

Ozzie Guillen would probably struggle to find a starting job in modern baseball. I would agree, 20 years ago, Baseball was not an offensively equal position. But in today's game, a good bat will have a long career, despite the glove. The glove without the bat won't last 5 years. The truth is, Players are so far more advanced in today's game you MUST have both to be anybody.

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Well, this team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2010.shtml)made the playoffs this year with one guy over .300.
These guys (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2009.shtml) won a World Series with three over .300, but one of those three had only nine plate appearances, so it's really only two guys.
These slackers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2008.shtml) had only one guy with more than five plate appearances hit over .300 (.301). Yeah, they won a World Series, by the way.

None of these teams are named "White Sox."

Team 1 had, by my count 5 20 home run hitters. NEXT

Team 2 had 7 of their 9 hitters plate 20 homers. NEXT

Team 3 had 1 player in their starting lineup with an OPS under .700.....at a defense first position in Catcher....6 of their regulars had an OPS over .785...

Thanks for playing

mcsoxfan
10-16-2010, 09:47 PM
The only grade to me that counts is a team grade, it is a simple pass/fail grade.

They failed.


Thank you very much.
There are 4 teams fighting for the right to play in the 2010 World Series.
None of them is the Chicago American League Ball Club.
Unfortunately, most of these Sox fans are satisfied being very good every 10 years and exceptionally good every 100 years.
If they weren't, we'd be under new ownership by now.

Daver
10-16-2010, 09:48 PM
You can call the 2010 White Sox many things, offense first is not one of them. The team completely ignored offense and it cost them.

Furthermore, How did the career of Doug Mankiewictz work out? Or JT Snow? Both were tremendous defensive 1b, Doug may have been one of the best to ever play the field. However, anyone who would take either over a Ryan Howard is foolish.

Manny Ramirez was a vital part of the Red Sox runs despite being a terrible OF.

Also, with your point, Ozzie Smith was a tremendous defensive player at a defense first position. That said, he only once finished in the top 10 in MVP voting. The year he finished in the top 10 he was 2nd, 1987, by far his best OFFENSIVE season.

Ozzie Guillen would probably struggle to find a starting job in modern baseball. I would agree, 20 years ago, Baseball was not an offensively equal position. But in today's game, a good bat will have a long career, despite the glove. The glove without the bat won't last 5 years. The truth is, Players are so far more advanced in today's game you MUST have both to be anybody.

The game hasn't changed, the perception has, and perception is reality for all intents and purposes, and your perception is based on the last twenty years of watching poor defensive teams get beat by teams with more balance.

The Yankees have been a well balanced team for two decades, how have they done?

Domeshot17
10-16-2010, 09:58 PM
The game hasn't changed, the perception has, and perception is reality for all intents and purposes, and your perception is based on the last twenty years of watching poor defensive teams get beat by teams with more balance.

The Yankees have been a well balanced team for two decades, how have they done?


I mean I do agree with balance, I am not advocating for Teahen or Josh Fields over Omar, simply a player who can both field and hit.

I would argue the game, or atleast the player, has evolved. Players are more in shape, both by advancement and by steroids. You have more players who can do it all these days, being both powerful and fast. Players are better at earlier ages etc.

Daver
10-16-2010, 10:14 PM
I mean I do agree with balance, I am not advocating for Teahen or Josh Fields over Omar, simply a player who can both field and hit.

I would argue the game, or atleast the player, has evolved. Players are more in shape, both by advancement and by steroids. You have more players who can do it all these days, being both powerful and fast. Players are better at earlier ages etc.

Not really,steroids were used as a tool to help players overcome injuries and increase their workout regimen, but it did nothing to improve them as actual ballplayers on both sides of the ball, steroids helped pitchers far more than they did position players, which is why most of the players caught were pitchers.

What you have now is an acceptance of mediocrity in the field in return for offensive production, it is a fantasy baseball mindset, but in the long run teams like the Yankees will continue to win because they address both sides of the game with defense first.

There is a reason the best SS in MLB plays third base for the Yankees, even though he is the best SS on that team.

DumpJerry
10-16-2010, 11:42 PM
Team 1 had, by my count 5 20 home run hitters. NEXT

Team 2 had 7 of their 9 hitters plate 20 homers. NEXT

Team 3 had 1 player in their starting lineup with an OPS under .700.....at a defense first position in Catcher....6 of their regulars had an OPS over .785...

Thanks for playing
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000HZqEAALy04w/s
Yeah guys, don't stop believing in offense being what wins.

kufram
10-17-2010, 04:37 AM
The game hasn't changed, the perception has, and perception is reality for all intents and purposes, and your perception is based on the last twenty years of watching poor defensive teams get beat by teams with more balance.

The Yankees have been a well balanced team for two decades, how have they done?


I was waiting for the word "balance". Fantasy baseball does seem to be what some people substitute for baseball. A team needs great defense to win in the post season. It only needs enough offense to win in the playoffs. I'm counting pitching as a defensive position. Of course, give me all-around players at each position and I'll take it every time.

BringHomeDaBacon
10-17-2010, 09:26 AM
A team that has 1/3 of its lineup consisting of one-dimensional players (Pierre, Vizquel) and zero-dimensional players (kotsay) can't claim to have balance.

Tragg
10-17-2010, 10:17 AM
Baseball is not an offensive sport.

That may be; but you still won't win with Omar's offensive production at third, unless it's compensated for elsewhere. You need someone at least adequate offensively.
With Teahen we had someone just adequate offensively but who couldn't catch anything.

A. Cavatica
10-17-2010, 07:12 PM
A team that has 1/3 of its lineup consisting of one-dimensional players (Pierre, Vizquel) and zero-dimensional players (kotsay) can't claim to have balance.

It can if two of the other players have five dimensions, and one has six.

Clearly we need Brian Anderson back.

Daver
10-17-2010, 07:37 PM
That may be; but you still won't win with Omar's offensive production at third, unless it's compensated for elsewhere. You need someone at least adequate offensively.
With Teahen we had someone just adequate offensively but who couldn't catch anything.

Omar was not signed to play third, the Sox tried to improve offensively at third by bringing in Teahen as an improvement over Fields at the plate, and it backfired and forced Omar to third.

What baffles me is that a team that values offense over defense would ignore the only true offensive position in all of baseball, but what the hell do I know.

Gavin
10-17-2010, 10:11 PM
I don't know why threads like this get derailed by people opining about what baseball "is" and "isn't".

russ99
10-17-2010, 10:44 PM
Ironic that so many here want defense over offense, but yet still can't stand the Sox being a National League-style team.

Here's the reason the Yankees are so balanced, they can afford to pay for the few players who are consistently good both offensively and defensively.

The rest of the teams have to pick their spots and hope it comes together. Thankfully, the Sox are have those players where it really counts at SS and CF.

Daver
10-17-2010, 10:49 PM
Ironic that so many here want defense over offense, but yet still can't stand the Sox being a National League-style team.

Here's the reason the Yankees are so balanced, they can afford to pay for the few players who are consistently good both offensively and defensively.

The rest of the teams have to pick their spots and hope it comes together. Thankfully, the Sox are have those players where it really counts at SS and CF.

The Twins have same balance at a fraction of the payroll.

Tragg
10-18-2010, 12:10 AM
By the end of the year, the TWins' payroll may have been higher than the Sox.

russ99
10-18-2010, 10:19 AM
The Twins have same balance at a fraction of the payroll.

And we all know why the Twins have that balance, because the entire farm and player development system is set up that way.

Will be interesting to see if they go away from that, and acquire established players, now that they have higher revenue with the new park.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2010, 12:03 PM
I know that according to published reports the Twins started the season with a 95 million dollar payroll. Don't know how much that went up when they got Capps and Fuentes.

Lip

khan
10-18-2010, 12:10 PM
By the end of the year, the TWins' payroll may have been higher than the Sox.

I doubt this is true. The SOX stupidly added Edwin Jackson and Manny Ramirez to their expensive, but not-really-contending-for-a-WS payroll. What did the Twins add to their payroll?

Nellie_Fox
10-18-2010, 02:53 PM
I know that according to published reports the Twins started the season with a 95 million dollar payroll. Don't know how much that went up when they got Capps and Fuentes.

LipFuentes was a prorated portion of $9,000,000. Capps was prorated from $3.5 million, but they got 500,000 with him.

Harry Chappas
10-20-2010, 05:58 PM
I think everyone can agree that you can't really afford to have a no-glove/hitter or no-hitter/glove at 3rd. It would be nice to strike a balance. In the context of what the Sox had available to them, I'd say Omar is worthy of an "A". If you applied the same grading curve to the entire AL, then he would merit a "C" or worse. Such was the sorry state of the 2010 Sox.

EndemicSox
10-25-2010, 04:35 PM
I think everyone can agree that you can't really afford to have a no-glove/hitter or no-hitter/glove at 3rd. It would be nice to strike a balance. In the context of what the Sox had available to them, I'd say Omar is worthy of an "A". If you applied the same grading curve to the entire AL, then he would merit a "C" or worse. Such was the sorry state of the 2010 Sox.

Agreed, no team wants 2010 Omar V as their starting 3B, he did fine given he is Omar V, and he deserves some credit for having a good season, again, for a 40 year old former CI, but compared to the average 3B? He stinks...and being Brooks Robinson with the glove isn't going to make up for his lack of a bat.

In a perfect world, every position would be filled with a player who could hit for, at the very least, league average across the board, and field at the same level. But there is some give and take on every team that doesn't have $200 million to spend...but you can't give away as many outs as OV did, especially at a position that most expect to provide some run production. He is a fine backup, but he has no place starting in MLB...