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View Full Version : What's needed to catch the Twins next year?


Harry Chappas
10-05-2010, 09:15 AM
If PK were to leave and we manage to replace him with someone on the order of Adam Dunn, wouldn't this be sort of a lateral move? In a year when PK hit 39 HR, over .300, and with 100+ RBI, we still finished a distant second. And if we trade away Floyd for someone else, aren't we robbing Peter to pay Paul (maybe literally)?

Short of Williams acquiring several big pieces, I'm not sure a lineup that could feature Morel, Viciedo, a fragile TCQ, and sweaty Freddy (if Peavy doesn't work) is going to put us over the top.

Color me skeptical. I'm usually an eternal optimist but I'm not at all confident that we can put the pieces in place to make a serious run at the Twins - especially when Morneau comes back.

slavko
10-05-2010, 09:32 AM
The problem is that the Twins have a long term plan. We have "putting the pieces in place." Been that way since they were beating us with a $20M budget.

Dibbs
10-05-2010, 09:45 AM
The problem is that the Twins have a long term plan. We have "putting the pieces in place." Been that way since they were beating us with a $20M budget.

Yep. Trading Hudson for Jackson proves this.

salty99
10-05-2010, 09:50 AM
A real farm system.

dwitt76
10-05-2010, 09:55 AM
140 Million dollar payroll which is not realistic for our sox.

soltrain21
10-05-2010, 10:14 AM
A real farm system.

Yep. That whole "focus on the minor league system, too" lasted about six months.

Red Barchetta
10-05-2010, 10:42 AM
A real farm system.

I agree. We need to get back to the Larry Himes-era approach where we are producing talent like Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Magglio Ordonez, etc. Not all are going to go onto HOF careers like Thomas, however we enjoyed a nice stretch where the minor leagues were producing starting players. Beuhrle, Sale, Alexi and Beckham are good, but we need more consistency.

guillensdisciple
10-05-2010, 10:56 AM
Balls

kittle42
10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
Balls

The elimination of everything grinder-ish and Chicago Tough.

This isn't football or hockey.

soxinem1
10-05-2010, 11:17 AM
Balls


YES!!!

You can add all the players you want.

But this team needs only one thing to go up against MIN:

SOME BALLS!!!!!

russ99
10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
1. A closer who doesn't take months off mentally or physically, and doing so throws the rest of the bullpen out of their roles and into disarray.
And yes, it was a shame that Bobby had family issues this year, but the same thing happened last season too.

2. Hitters who can go opposite field with men in scoring position or otherwise talior their approach for the situation.
No more of this hacking or swinging for the fences garbage. It's not brain surgery, get the pitcher into a bad count and look for your pitch.

dickallen15
10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
An attitude adjustment. Instead of praising everything Minnesota, how about some hatred? How about thinking you can beat them. Most of the time the Sox lose to the Twins they lose before one pitch is thrown.

LoveYourSuit
10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
140 Million dollar payroll which is not realistic for our sox.


The Sox are in that ugly crossroad you don't want to find yourself in as a team. So much money commitment that you can't blow it up. To go along with not being able to go all out at pump another $50 million to try to solve all the issues.


Kenny will have to earn his pay this offseason like no other. He's going to have to pull some 2005 magic here and mix and match. Some will be pissed when he trades or doesn't re-sign a popular veteran or two, but he will have to roll the dice to make this work.

Chez
10-05-2010, 02:21 PM
An attitude adjustment. Instead of praising everything Minnesota, how about some hatred? How about thinking you can beat them. Most of the time the Sox lose to the Twins they lose before one pitch is thrown.

So, for example, if Omar Vizquel is taught to hate everything about Danny Valencia, that would somehow improve the likelihood that the Sox will catch the Twins? How would you suggest the Sox coaches teach hatred? Do we bring in a special Nastiness Coach? Does Gordon Beckham -- who seems like a nice enough guy -- get sent back to Charlotte to work on his surliness? These are grown men. I don't think your suggestion is the answer.

SoxSpeed22
10-05-2010, 02:33 PM
So, for example, if Omar Vizquel is taught to hate everything about Danny Valencia, that would somehow improve the likelihood that the Sox will catch the Twins? How would you suggest the Sox coaches teach hatred? Do we bring in a special Nastiness Coach? Does Gordon Beckham -- who seems like a nice enough guy -- get sent back to Charlotte to work on his surliness? These are grown men. I don't think your suggestion is the answer.Ozzie and Hawk think that the Twins are the greatest thing to exist on Earth. All of a sudden, that gets back to the team, thinking that these guys are so great, we're not going to beat them. When that happens, you start looking for ways to lose. (see self-fulfilling prophecy)
You're right, they are grown men, so there's no reason they should be as afraid of another group of grown men as they are of the Twins.

Chez
10-05-2010, 02:48 PM
Ozzie and Hawk think that the Twins are the greatest thing to exist on Earth. All of a sudden, that gets back to the team, thinking that these guys are so great, we're not going to beat them. When that happens, you start looking for ways to lose. (see self-fulfilling prophecy)
You're right, they are grown men, so there's no reason they should be as afraid of another group of grown men as they are of the Twins.

And I honestly don't believe that the players care what Hawk says about the Twins on the broadcasts or what Ozzie says to the media. It doesn't effect their play at all (in my opinion).

Nellie_Fox
10-05-2010, 02:49 PM
So, for example, if Omar Vizquel is taught to hate everything about Danny Valencia, that would somehow improve the likelihood that the Sox will catch the Twins? How would you suggest the Sox coaches teach hatred? Do we bring in a special Nastiness Coach? Does Gordon Beckham -- who seems like a nice enough guy -- get sent back to Charlotte to work on his surliness? These are grown men. I don't think your suggestion is the answer.Bring in Dick Butkus as "hatred coach."

Ozzie and Hawk think that the Twins are the greatest thing to exist on Earth. All of a sudden, that gets back to the team, thinking that these guys are so great, we're not going to beat them. When that happens, you start looking for ways to lose. (see self-fulfilling prophecy)
You're right, they are grown men, so there's no reason they should be as afraid of another group of grown men as they are of the Twins.How "afraid" are they?

Sometimes, stuff just happens.

Nellie_Fox
10-05-2010, 02:52 PM
And I honestly don't believe that the players care what Hawk says about the Twins on the broadcasts or what Ozzie says to the media. It doesn't effect their play at all (in my opinion).And I agree. I think people are WAY over analyzing.

khan
10-05-2010, 02:55 PM
The problem is that the Twins have a long term plan. We have "putting the pieces in place." Been that way since they were beating us with a $20M budget.
I can agree with this view. No offense to KW, but he's a former football player, a former big leaguer, and a scout. In other words, he's not a business management-type trained to see the "bigger picture."

As a result, KW seems to be blind to ANYTHING other than THIS season, when a GM really needs to see MORE than "THIS season." He seems to only value a player's relative abilities vs. another, without considering OTHER matters of importance.

Here's hoping KW gets kicked upstairs soon, and someone who can generally manage this business like a business can take over. OR, for KW to significantly change his ways, should he remain as GM.


An attitude adjustment. Instead of praising everything Minnesota, how about some hatred? How about thinking you can beat them. Most of the time the Sox lose to the Twins they lose before one pitch is thrown.
While I disagree with the wording, it IS telling that Ozzie does fall over himself to publicly praise the twins at every chance. One wonders what he says to the team in the privacy of the clubhouse.

I tend to discount "immeasurables/intangibles," but there is something to be said about being defeated even before taking the field. [There is also something to be said about "finding a way, or making a way" to win.]

SoxSpeed22
10-05-2010, 03:02 PM
And I honestly don't believe that the players care what Hawk says about the Twins on the broadcasts or what Ozzie says to the media. It doesn't effect their play at all (in my opinion).We'll just have to agree to disagree, since I think it does.

Daver
10-05-2010, 03:04 PM
Better balance.

SoxSpeed22
10-05-2010, 03:45 PM
How "afraid" are they?

Sometimes, stuff just happens.True, but there is a point where things like blowing a lead in the late innings or letting them keep hitting our batters stops becoming a series of coincidences and starts becoming a habit.

Chez
10-05-2010, 03:56 PM
True, but there is a point where things like blowing a lead in the late innings or letting them keep hitting our batters stops becoming a series of coincidences and starts becoming a habit.

I agree with you about the need to retaliate for the Delmon Young incident and the multiple HBP. But I don't think Matt Thornton was thinking about Hawk's opinion of the Twins right before he threw that 0-2 pitch to Thome!

JermaineDye05
10-05-2010, 04:00 PM
A better record against division foes, especially the Twins.

russ99
10-05-2010, 04:02 PM
I can agree with this view. No offense to KW, but he's a former football player, a former big leaguer, and a scout. In other words, he's not a business management-type trained to see the "bigger picture."

As a result, KW seems to be blind to ANYTHING other than THIS season, when a GM really needs to see MORE than "THIS season." He seems to only value a player's relative abilities vs. another, without considering OTHER matters of importance.

Here's hoping KW gets kicked upstairs soon, and someone who can generally manage this business like a business can take over. OR, for KW to significantly change his ways, should he remain as GM.

I agree that Kenny does get too involved in the day-to-day details that he shouldn't, and sometimes loses sight of the big picture.

He's better than he used to be, but we'll see if he's any different next year in resisting the temptation to wheel and deal with Sale and Mitchell.

But, I'd much rather a GM that focuses on the now and goes for it and more often than not fails in a blaze of glory, than an upper-management type on a 3/5/7 year plan that never gets there, like we used to have here.

TDog
10-05-2010, 04:10 PM
If Morneau's career is in serious question, the Twins could sign Konerko as they go after former White Sox players the way the White Sox go after former Indians players, despite former White Sox players not being tough enough.

dickallen15
10-05-2010, 04:13 PM
I agree that Kenny does get too involved in the day-to-day details that he shouldn't, and sometimes loses sight of the big picture.

He's better than he used to be, but we'll see if he's any different next year in resisting the temptation to wheel and deal with Sale and Mitchell.

But, I'd much rather a GM that focuses on the now and goes for it and more often than not fails in a blaze of glory, than an upper-management type on a 3/5/7 year plan that never gets there, like we used to have here.

What plan that never gets there are you talking about? The Sox rebuilt when JR got the team, then with the 86,87,88,89 drafts. That team definitely "got there" and then rebuilt on the fly with the 1997 White Flag trade. They won the division in 2000.

The thought that KW and Ozzie have made White Sox baseball relevant and it wouldn't be without at least one of them, a Cowley contention, is ridiculous. If you are going to rebuild, the AL Central provides you ample opportunity to get into contention pretty quickly.

PaleHoser
10-05-2010, 04:52 PM
What's Wrong:

The Twins show up hungry, confident and prepared to win every day. We show up hoping to win, morphing into spectators as the game goes on.

What Needs to Change:

We need to show up prepared to play nine innings of aggressive, solid, relentless baseball. They must be taught to dread playing us more than death and taxes.

VMSNS
10-05-2010, 05:02 PM
We need to play better against teams within our division, as well as against garbage teams like Baltimore.

We also need to have a competitive, winning attitude. No more "hoping to win".

Finally, we need more consistancy out of our starting rotation, a dependable hitter/hitters in the DH position, and 3B/RF that can actually play defense.

ewokpelts
10-05-2010, 05:18 PM
new manager. one who dosent slobber praise for the twins might help.

TomBradley72
10-05-2010, 05:30 PM
A right fielder
A closer
Another arm or two for the bullpen
A catcher
Re-sign Konerko

Hitmen77
10-06-2010, 10:29 AM
How about if the Sox finally get serious about filling the holes in our roster? ....and I mean with people who can play the position, can be a passable major league player, are legitimate prospects, etc.

The last time I think we had this was 2006. I know that doesn't guarantee success (it didn't in 2006), but it's better than starting off the season already hamstrung in some way.

This year, we used bench players for the prime offensive position in the lineup with Kotsay in the heart of the batting order (and at the same time we helped the Twins by letting them get Thome). We also went into the season with the idea that Teahen was an acceptable defender at 3rd.

Last year, we counted on Bartolo Colon and Jose Contreras to be 2/5 of our starting rotation and Josh Fields was going to "shock us" with his good defense. In 2008, Swisher was going to be our CF. 2007 was Grinderstad time and an abysmal bullpen. I just hope that for 2011 the Sox finally avoid filling key positions in a totally half-assed way.

I realize that part of the plan will involve plugging in an unproven rookie at 3B (Morel), but perhaps that gets back to what others have said about the Sox lousy farm system. For years, our home grown replacements were the likes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields and Lance Broadway. Until that improves, we're going to face gaping holes in our roster because we don't have the payroll to fill all the positions with veterans.

asindc
10-06-2010, 10:35 AM
How about if the Sox finally get serious about filling the holes in our roster? ....and I mean with people who can play the position, can be a passable major league player, are legitimate prospects, etc.

The last time I think we had this was 2006. I know that doesn't guarantee success (it didn't in 2006), but it's better than starting off the season already hamstrung in some way.

This year, we used bench players for the prime offensive position in the lineup with Kotsay in the heart of the batting order (and at the same time we helped the Twins by letting them get Thome). We also went into the season with the idea that Teahen was an acceptable defender at 3rd.

Last year, we counted on Bartolo Colon and Jose Contreras to be 2/5 of our starting rotation and Josh Fields was going to "shock us" with his good defense. In 2008, Swisher was going to be our CF. 2007 was Grinderstad time and an abysmal bullpen. I just hope that for 2011 the Sox finally avoid filling key positions in a totally half-assed way.

I realize that part of the plan will involve plugging in an unproven rookie at 3B (Morel), but perhaps that gets back to what others have said about the Sox lousy farm system. For years, our home grown replacements were the likes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields and Lance Broadway. Until that improves, we're going to face gaping holes in our roster because we don't have the payroll to fill all the positions with veterans.

It is already improving with Beckham, Santos, and Sale. I agree, though, KW really needs to show consistent improvement of the farm system.

khan
10-06-2010, 02:18 PM
But, I'd much rather a GM that focuses on the now and goes for it and more often than not fails in a blaze of glory, than an upper-management type on a 3/5/7 year plan that never gets there, like we used to have here.
1. Russ, the world isn't so "binary."

It isn't "I'd rather have KW/OG, even though they've failed in most seasons than any of the predecessors." It isn't "go for it" or "build from within." It isn't just "veterans" vs. "prospects." It's ALL of it. The twins have kicked the SOX asses by having a long-term plan, and NOW, the ability to selectively go into free agency.


2. PLENTY of teams [just look at the contenders year after year] "go for it" AND build from within. Look at your buddy Ozzie's Lords and Masters, the minnesota twins: They do both. As do the red sawx. As do many other organizations.


3. Again, a friendly suggestion to you: Raise your standards. I don't want a management team that "fails more often than not." I prefer proactivity over reactivity in management. I prefer a LOW profile, over the egotistical style of KW. I prefer winning over losing.

I prefer having a PLAN that leads to success more often than not, by being PROACTIVE. [a la the twins]

I prefer NOT to go on "wishes," "hopes," and "focuses on the now and goes for it and more often than not fails in a blaze of glory," in a reactive way. [a la KW]

asindc
10-06-2010, 02:46 PM
1. Russ, the world isn't so "binary."

It isn't "I'd rather have KW/OG, even though they've failed in most seasons than any of the predecessors." It isn't "go for it" or "build from within." It isn't just "veterans" vs. "prospects." It's ALL of it. The twins have kicked the SOX asses by having a long-term plan, and NOW, the ability to selectively go into free agency.


2. PLENTY of teams [just look at the contenders year after year] "go for it" AND build from within. Look at your buddy Ozzie's Lords and Masters, the minnesota twins: They do both. As do the red sawx. As do many other organizations.


3. Again, a friendly suggestion to you: Raise your standards. I don't want a management team that "fails more often than not." I prefer proactivity over reactivity in management. I prefer a LOW profile, over the egotistical style of KW. I prefer winning over losing.

I prefer having a PLAN that leads to success more often than not, by being PROACTIVE. [a la the twins]

I prefer NOT to go on "wishes," "hopes," and "focuses on the now and goes for it and more often than not fails in a blaze of glory," in a reactive way. [a la KW]

I agree with your first point, though I disagree that "many" teams do both over the long term, and I definitely disagree that the Twinkees have done both over the long term. In fact, I think their lack of success in the playoffs over the past decade is definitely linked to their long range philosophy of building from within and not overpaying to either acquire or retain top-tier FAs. Consequently, they usually come up short talent-wise when the playoffs begin. (In fact, your Twinkees fans counterparts who have consistently bashed Ryan/Smith cite this as the chief complaint.) They have ventured more aggressively into free agency this past offseason than in the past, but it was not part of their long term strategy. It might be now, but we will have to see if they continue that aggressiveness.

Boston is the prime example of an organization that has simultaneously built successfully from within while being aggressive players in FA over the long term. Philly took awhile to get there, but they eventually became more aggressive in FA to add to their long-term player development. Atlanta to a lesser extent. NYY is a curious case, in that they have done the reverse of Philly. Tampa, Texas, Cincy, and SF have built mostly from within while rarely (if ever) going after top tier FAs.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-06-2010, 02:47 PM
resign PK and AJ
3B
DH

health

khan
10-06-2010, 02:58 PM
I agree with your first point, though I disagree that "many" teams do both over the long term, and I definitely disagree that the Twinkees have done both over the long term. In fact, I think their lack of success in the playoffs over the past decade is definitely linked to their long range philosophy of building from within and not overpaying to either acquire or retain top-tier FAs. Consequently, they usually come up short talent-wise when the playoffs begin. (In fact, your Twinkees fans counterparts who have consistently bashed Ryan/Smith cite this as the chief complaint.) They have ventured more aggressively into free agency this past offseason than in the past, but it was not part of their long term strategy. It might be now, but we will have to see if they continue that aggressiveness.
That was my point:

They have had the "long-term plan" with their exceptional scouting, drafting, and development systems in place for YEARS, which was enough by itself to kick KW's ass year after year.

NOW, with Target Field, they have closed much of the gap between the SOX and their organization. As a result, they will be better-positioned to selectively go into FA to close gaps.


Contrast that with KW's shotgun approach of "hoping" that Kotsay would be good enough, and then "wishing" that some other stupid GM would give up a player to fix what should have been fixed in the offseason. Or KW's REACTIVE moves to sign has-beens to close gaps elsewhere in the team, as in Jones.

Don't get me wrong, KW's reactivity can work, IF you have the yankees' checkbook. If not, then you're always running from one crisis to the next as a GM, without ongoing success in your team.

Boston is the prime example of an organization that has simultaneously built successfully from within while being aggressive players in FA over the long term. Philly took awhile to get there, but they eventually became more aggressive in FA to add to their long-term player development. Atlanta to a lesser extent. NYY is a curious case, in that they have done the reverse of Philly. Tampa, Texas, Cincy, and SF have built mostly from within while rarely (if ever) going after top tier FAs.
Agreed. But to try to go aggressively after expensive veterans year after year, and trading away anything of value among the youth is foolishness. It isn't a "plan." It isn't proactive. It leads to failure more often than not.

Harry Chappas
10-06-2010, 04:47 PM
How about if the Sox finally get serious about filling the holes in our roster? ....and I mean with people who can play the position, can be a passable major league player, are legitimate prospects, etc.

The last time I think we had this was 2006. I know that doesn't guarantee success (it didn't in 2006), but it's better than starting off the season already hamstrung in some way.

This year, we used bench players for the prime offensive position in the lineup with Kotsay in the heart of the batting order (and at the same time we helped the Twins by letting them get Thome). We also went into the season with the idea that Teahen was an acceptable defender at 3rd.

Last year, we counted on Bartolo Colon and Jose Contreras to be 2/5 of our starting rotation and Josh Fields was going to "shock us" with his good defense. In 2008, Swisher was going to be our CF. 2007 was Grinderstad time and an abysmal bullpen. I just hope that for 2011 the Sox finally avoid filling key positions in a totally half-assed way.

I realize that part of the plan will involve plugging in an unproven rookie at 3B (Morel), but perhaps that gets back to what others have said about the Sox lousy farm system. For years, our home grown replacements were the likes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields and Lance Broadway. Until that improves, we're going to face gaping holes in our roster because we don't have the payroll to fill all the positions with veterans.

Great response. I hadn't really thought about it, but you're absolutely right - we have made a habit of entering the season with a patchwork team that usually features a bunch of reclamation projects, past-their-prime vets, etc. It'd be nice to feature a team that is just "solid" top to bottom. I'm not talking about all stars necessarily - just above average hitters/fielders.

I don't think the Sox finished behind the Twins because they lack "balls" or are afraid of them. I think they finished behind them because they aren't as good at baseball. It's pretty simple really.

Luke
10-06-2010, 04:55 PM
I don't think the Sox finished behind the Twins because they lack "balls" or are afraid of them. I think they finished behind them because they aren't as good at baseball. It's pretty simple really.

I agree completely. The Sox were right in the middle of the pack in almost every offensive category. Score more runs.

kittle42
10-06-2010, 06:31 PM
I don't think the Sox finished behind the Twins because they lack "balls" or are afraid of them. I think they finished behind them because they aren't as good at baseball. It's pretty simple really.

No way! They're afraid! CHICAGO TOUGH. Throw at all of them! End Mauer's career! Arrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh!

tstrike2000
10-06-2010, 07:30 PM
Defense, not going into prolonged slumps, situational hitting, sticking up for your team, and not kissing the rear ends of the Twins organization.

Daver
10-06-2010, 07:35 PM
Defense, not going into prolonged slumps, situational hitting, sticking up for your team, and not kissing the rear ends of the Twins organization.

Exactly, better balance.

But I will give credit where it is due, and the Twins have earned it, and have done so for well over a decade, Terry Ryan built what Billy Beane has been trying to achieve for a long time.

DumpJerry
10-06-2010, 11:36 PM
What is needed to catch the Twins next year?

Before each game, even in April, convince them that they are actually playing the Yankees in the ALDS. Seems to work every time.

LoveYourSuit
10-06-2010, 11:40 PM
Exactly, better balance.

But I will give credit where it is due, and the Twins have earned it, and have done so for well over a decade, Terry Ryan built what Billy Beane has been trying to achieve for a long time.

I know you keep saying balance and I agree.

I don't know how the Sox can go this route with so many $$$ already invested on that pitching staff.

Unelss the farm begins to produce that balance, we are going to be stuck over-paying in trades and the FA route.


Also you have a coaching staff the refuses to teach "playing smart baseball." This team continues to be as about the dumbest team you can find in MLB. The run-down play is a perfect example of how badly coached we are. And our two head men on the bench were former middle infielders. That's even more scarry to me.

1989
10-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Rent out Yankees uniforms for when we play them

guillensdisciple
10-07-2010, 02:07 AM
There seriously is no player formula that will beat the Twins. This team just has to play the Twins like an enemy, not like a best friend that they need to take it easy on. We choke to them quiet easily and that is our weakness. Man up.

mcsoxfan
10-07-2010, 11:10 PM
YES!!!

You can add all the players you want.

But this team needs only one thing to go up against MIN:

SOME BALLS!!!!!


Gamers win...grinders just look good losing

LITTLE NELL
10-08-2010, 06:21 AM
Based on the first 2 games of the division series, wear Yankee unis.

Hitmen77
10-08-2010, 09:15 AM
It is already improving with Beckham, Santos, and Sale. I agree, though, KW really needs to show consistent improvement of the farm system.

We'll see if that can continue. The 2008 draft gave us Beckham, Hudson (traded for Jackson), and Morel (promising). I think some of our top '09 picks were slowed down by injuries.

But the business-as-usual farm system results over the last decade or so can't continue if we want to finish ahead of Minnesota and/or Detroit.

Great response. I hadn't really thought about it, but you're absolutely right - we have made a habit of entering the season with a patchwork team that usually features a bunch of reclamation projects, past-their-prime vets, etc. It'd be nice to feature a team that is just "solid" top to bottom. I'm not talking about all stars necessarily - just above average hitters/fielders.

I don't think the Sox finished behind the Twins because they lack "balls" or are afraid of them. I think they finished behind them because they aren't as good at baseball. It's pretty simple really.

One thing that really bothers me is that KW and OG have been saying for 5 years now that the Sox have to get better at fundamentals, having a more balanced team, etc......and it hasn't happened. At some point, those are just empty words from Sox management and someone is just failing to get this done.

Irishsox1
10-08-2010, 10:02 AM
I would start with the bullpen. A closer with an era under 4.00 would be nice. Or just sign someone from the 1999 Cleveland Indians team.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2010, 10:25 AM
In this week's Sox Mailbag, at the Tribune web site, Mark Gonzales answers a question on the Sox beating the Twins with a pretty strong statement, using the term "Twins man-love" among other things.

In short he says, the Sox need to look in the mirror to answer the question of why they can't beat them.

I inferred from his comments that the talk about Minnesota being in the Sox collective heads has some real merit.

Lip

dickallen15
10-09-2010, 03:02 AM
Instead of wearing the alternate blacks, JR should pop for some Yankee uniforms when the Sox play Minnesota next year. They will have no problems with them then.

JimmyJoe
10-09-2010, 01:34 PM
Balls


...and bats.

DumpJerry
10-09-2010, 08:20 PM
Just make sure the media hype before every Twins game is "this is playoff atmosphere."

WSox597
10-09-2010, 08:43 PM
Based on the first 2 games of the division series, wear Yankee unis.

Hah, you beat me to the punch. I have game 3 on, and it's more of the same. The Twins look like the Sox do playing the Twins. LOL

Three and out, again.

MARTINMVP
10-10-2010, 02:41 PM
The Sox rely too much on these temporary, filling in the holes types of moves. While I don't expect that to be eliminated completely, I would rather see more long-term development rather than switching bandaids every so often in trying to stop a leaking foundation crack. It won't stick nor will it stop the leak.

DumpJerry
10-10-2010, 02:56 PM
The Sox rely too much on these temporary, filling in the holes types of moves. While I don't expect that to be eliminated completely, I would rather see more long-term development rather than switching bandaids every so often in trying to stop a leaking foundation crack. It won't stick nor will it stop the leak.
You just described about 25 of the 30 MLB teams. Maybe 28 since only the Twins and Rays are the only teams I can think of who don't take this approach.

Easier said than done.

Rikirk
10-10-2010, 05:43 PM
Finally someone else who considers the Twins "The Enemy".
Points to you Guillensdiciple.
Get them out of the brain, say these guys can be beaten and then DO IT!
The Yankmes seem to know what to do.
Im waiting for the day when we stop being the Twins b****.

Just do it.



Oh and regarding the Twins 2010 playoff appearance...
Ace Ventura has a word for it,..what is it now...oh yeah...

Loo-hoo...hoo-seers!

dwitt76
10-11-2010, 07:26 AM
Not sure if this has been said, but just play them in October. You will win everyime. :D:

Red Barchetta
10-11-2010, 08:42 AM
Create special alternate jerseys that have "NY" stitched on them and wear them everytime we play the Twins. :cool:

The SOX players, management, announcers, etc., need to stop bowing down to the "Mighty Twins" and their great manager every season. Develop a damn chip on your shoulder and show some backbone. The Yankees can't wait to play them! I can't understand why we continue to lose to a team that is so damn flat every October.

SI1020
10-11-2010, 08:56 AM
Create special alternate jerseys that have "NY" stitched on them and wear them everytime we play the Twins. :cool:

The SOX players, management, announcers, etc., need to stop bowing down to the "Mighty Twins" and their great manager every season. Develop a damn chip on your shoulder and show some backbone. The Yankees can't wait to play them! I can't understand why we continue to lose to a team that is so damn flat every October. Maybe it's because the Twins are good enough to dominate in the not so hot ALC, but fold like an accordion when faced with real top of the line opposition.

Nellie_Fox
10-11-2010, 10:22 AM
Create special alternate jerseys that have "NY" stitched on them and wear them every time we play the Twins.
How many people are going to make this same post in this thread?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
10-11-2010, 10:25 AM
I don't think the Sox finished behind the Twins because they lack "balls" or are afraid of them. I think they finished behind them because they aren't as good at baseball. It's pretty simple really.

Throw out the H2H games between the Sox and the Twins, and the Sox went 83-61, while the Twins go 81-63.

I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins, but for whatever reason, the Sox just can't find it in their hearts to beat the Twins senseless. The Twins have no qualms about going out there and punching the Sox in the face...so why can't the Sox do it back? They have to look in the mirror and find out.

Seriously, how bad is it that we let these *******s walk all over us in the season, only to watch them get chewed up and spit out in the postseason in 3 short games, time after time after time?

They win 3 more games against the Twins (just go 8-10 against them) and they force a Game 163. Play .500 against them, and it's the Sox vs. Yankees in the ALDS.

So, it's not a matter of the Sox not being as good as them...it's a matter that the Twins are in the Sox' heads.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-11-2010, 10:35 AM
They win 3 more games against the Twins (just go 8-10 against them) and they force a Game 163. Play .500 against them, and it's the Sox vs. Yankees in the ALDS.

So, it's not a matter of the Sox not being as good as them...it's a matter that the Twins are in the Sox' heads.
1) Bobby Jenks massive blown save
2) Thornton blown save
3) what am I missing?

Either way, the Sox had leads in the 7th inning in 5 of the games they lost. The bullpen is the reason the Sox lost the division. I don't even know if it's fair to say they are in the Sox heads... the bullpen just wasn't good enough. Maybe the bullpen needs some therapy.

Luke
10-11-2010, 01:15 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

Finding players that hate the Twins more doesn't solve these problems.

soltrain21
10-11-2010, 01:18 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

Finding players that hate the Twins more doesn't solve these problems.

Thank you! I hate this Chicago Tuff stuff.

Nellie_Fox
10-11-2010, 02:08 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.Yes, but to be fair you need to mention that the Sox stole 92 more bases than the Twins did. The Sox were successful 68% of the time (160 out of 234,) the Twins 71% of the time (68 out of 96.) Not that big of a difference in success rate, and you'd expect the more aggressive running team to get caught more.

KMcMahon817
10-11-2010, 02:09 PM
Throw out the H2H games between the Sox and the Twins, and the Sox went 83-61, while the Twins go 81-63.

I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins, but for whatever reason, the Sox just can't find it in their hearts to beat the Twins senseless. The Twins have no qualms about going out there and punching the Sox in the face...so why can't the Sox do it back? They have to look in the mirror and find out.

Seriously, how bad is it that we let these *******s walk all over us in the season, only to watch them get chewed up and spit out in the postseason in 3 short games, time after time after time?

They win 3 more games against the Twins (just go 8-10 against them) and they force a Game 163. Play .500 against them, and it's the Sox vs. Yankees in the ALDS.

So, it's not a matter of the Sox not being as good as them...it's a matter that the Twins are in the Sox' heads.

This is a really interesting perspective that I wish more people had. It's not like were all that far off.

MisterB
10-11-2010, 02:15 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

They also stole 92 less bases than the Sox.


EDIT: I guess Nellie beat me to it...

Tragg
10-11-2010, 02:18 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

Finding players that hate the Twins more doesn't solve these problems.
Of course it does. Who needs players who can hit and drive the ball?
IT's the intangibles, and soft factors that this team lacks.
Because the most important thing for the Sox is keeping a happy and "respectful" clubhouse.

Luke
10-11-2010, 02:34 PM
Yes, but to be fair you need to mention that the Sox stole 102 more bases than the Twins did. The Sox were successful 68% of the time (160 out of 234,) the Twins 71% of the time (68 out of 96.) Not that big of a difference in success rate, and you'd expect the more aggressive running team to get caught more.

Yeah, percentage-wise it's not a huge difference really. The Sox were 24th in all of baseball in success rate and the Twins weren't too much better. To be honest, that probably doesn't make or break anything with regard to catching the Twins.

Where it starts to hurt though is in comparison to the rest of the league. The Sox stole 160 bases (second in all of baseball) and had the worst success rate of any of the top ten teams in steals. They were thrown out 23 times more than the next closest team.

I don't think they have to stop being an aggressive team by any means, maybe just slightly more selective.

Red Barchetta
10-11-2010, 02:56 PM
Throw out the H2H games between the Sox and the Twins, and the Sox went 83-61, while the Twins go 81-63.

I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins, but for whatever reason, the Sox just can't find it in their hearts to beat the Twins senseless. The Twins have no qualms about going out there and punching the Sox in the face...so why can't the Sox do it back? They have to look in the mirror and find out.

Seriously, how bad is it that we let these *******s walk all over us in the season, only to watch them get chewed up and spit out in the postseason in 3 short games, time after time after time?

They win 3 more games against the Twins (just go 8-10 against them) and they force a Game 163. Play .500 against them, and it's the Sox vs. Yankees in the ALDS.

So, it's not a matter of the Sox not being as good as them...it's a matter that the Twins are in the Sox' heads.

Great perspective! That's why I get sick when I hear Hawk, Ozzie, players, etc. brown nose the Twins organization and their "great manager". They are not that great of a team. They are just in our heads the same way the Yankees are in their heads. :angry:

Noneck
10-11-2010, 03:05 PM
I keep reading that the yanks are in the twins head, is it possible that the yanks are just a lot better team than the twins?

rdivaldi
10-11-2010, 04:57 PM
I keep reading that the yanks are in the twins head, is it possible that the yanks are just a lot better team than the twins?

Haha, that's an understatement. Way too many White Sox fans and prominent figures in the Chicago media (ahem, Phil Rogers) need to get over their Twins worship.

DumpJerry
10-11-2010, 05:18 PM
I keep reading that the yanks are in the twins head, is it possible that the yanks are just a lot better team than the twins?
With a bullpen consisting of:
Javy Vazquez
Damaso Marte
Sergio Mitre
Boone Logan
Kerry Wood
Royce Ring
Chad Gaudin
there is no way the Yankees can be as poor as a Chicago team when playing the Twins. No way.

rdivaldi
10-11-2010, 05:19 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

Check each teams home/away splits and you'll see why this is not a fair comparison.

DumpJerry
10-11-2010, 05:33 PM
The Twins had fewer errors, a lower team ERA, scored more runs, and got caught stealing 47 times less than the Sox.

Finding players that hate the Twins more doesn't solve these problems.
Ahhh.....love the use of stats to settle all baseball disputes.
White Sox in 2010: 160 stolen bases, caught stealing 74 times (31.6% caught)
Twins in 2010: 68 stolen bases, caught stealing 28 times (29.1% caught stealing).
The caught stealing stats are most likely within the standard deviation.
Why didn't you also write that the Twins stole almost 100 fewer bases than the Sox?
http://loveforlife.com.au/files/strawman2.jpg

rdivaldi
10-11-2010, 05:41 PM
Why didn't you also write that the Twins stole almost 100 fewer bases than the Sox?

Because everything the Twins do is correct, they can do no wrong. Did you know what 100% of the Twins roster came from their magic farm system? The farm system where the instructors sprinkle "Twinkie dust" on the players and turn them all into perennial all-stars. Just ask Phil Rogers, he'll tell you.

Luke
10-12-2010, 10:00 AM
Ahhh.....love the use of stats to settle all baseball disputes.
White Sox in 2010: 160 stolen bases, caught stealing 74 times (31.6% caught)
Twins in 2010: 68 stolen bases, caught stealing 28 times (29.1% caught stealing).
The caught stealing stats are most likely within the standard deviation.
Why didn't you also write that the Twins stole almost 100 fewer bases than the Sox?
http://loveforlife.com.au/files/strawman2.jpg

I understand that the success rate is fairly close, but for a team that stole a lot the Sox were among the worst in baseball. They got thrown out stealing more than any other team...by quite a bit. They were actually more than 3 standard deviations away from the average times CS. The Twins were within one.

If you want to ignore CS stealing, fine. I suppose any stat can be debated if you don't want to believe its reliability or its accuracy or just feel it's not germane to the argument.

I can't believe though that we're all having such a hard time accepting that the Twins are a better team. This last off season they signed an all star shortstop, a four time gold glove winner at 2B, and DH who has 85 million career HR.

The Twins were just a better team this year. No amount of anger or grindiness is going to fix that, nor is Hawk refusing to kiss the Twins ass, or plunking Joe Mauer. Sox just need better players.

Nellie_Fox
10-12-2010, 10:21 AM
I understand that the success rate is fairly close, but for a team that stole a lot the Sox were among the worst in baseball. They got thrown out stealing more than any other team...by quite a bit. They were actually more than 3 standard deviations away from the average times CS. The Twins were within one. But that's not what you should be comparing. You should be comparing the percentage of caught stealing, not the number. Of course the number would be skewed in favor of teams that rarely attempt steals.

I'm not going to do the math, because I don't care, but I'm reasonably certain they would not be three standard deviations away from the mean of percentage.

Luke
10-12-2010, 11:08 AM
But that's not what you should be comparing. You should be comparing the percentage of caught stealing, not the number. Of course the number would be skewed in favor of teams that rarely attempt steals.

I'm not going to do the math, because I don't care, but I'm reasonably certain they would not be three standard deviations away from the mean of percentage.

I'm almost certain they're not. On a percentage basis it was fairly close, although the Twins still were slightly better. I don't want to get into the risk-reward argument of stolen bases. I honestly don't the answer to it, and maybe all the runners thrown out are mitigated by turning walks into doubles; I honestly don't know.

My point isn't that you can identify this single facet of the game (stolen bases for example) and pin that as the reason the Twins won the division. It is however illustrative of a team that did many things better than the Sox.

khan
10-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Throw out the H2H games between the Sox and the Twins, and the Sox went 83-61, while the Twins go 81-63.

I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins, but for whatever reason, the Sox just can't find it in their hearts to beat the Twins senseless.
No offense, but I HATE this view.

It was this silly view that made KW think to himself, "Edwin Jackson is the lynchpin that will magically make this team WS-worthy, even though the DH sucks ass, the RF can't catch a cold or hit consistently, there's no real LH threat in the lineup, the bullpen faltered [yet again] in the second half, and there is an abject lack of depth in the organization."

The SOX were nowhere near as good as the twins, and the twins PROVED it by beating the crap out of the SOX all season long. Like it or not, the SOX were incomplete as a team, IN ADDITION TO being beaten mentally by the twins.

I hate the idea that ..."I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins," because this is likely to encourage KW to [ONCE AGAIN] put together a flawed, incomplete team as he did THIS year. After all, it was "merely" the mental aspect that beat the SOX right?

And KW is already talking about re-signing AJ to be the LH bat we've lacked. In other words, to [essentially] bring back the same team that were the first losers in the division. Who knows? Maybe sheeple and ozzpologists can contort reality again, as KW/OG re-sign Kotsay, for 2011 too...

The Twins have no qualms about going out there and punching the Sox in the face...so why can't the Sox do it back? They have to look in the mirror and find out.
I can agree to this in part, but I don't believe that the mental aspect ALONE can explain why the SOX got their asses kicked [AGAIN] by the twins.

After all, it isn't like this is the first time the twins won the division this decade. If it WERE the first time, I might give more credence to the idea of it "just" being the mental aspect that beat the SOX.

Since this has happened before, I believe that the twins were better coached, were better balanced, had better depth, and had fewer holes than the SOX. In sum, they won the division, because they DESERVED to win the division, because they were BETTER.



I can't believe though that we're all having such a hard time accepting that the Twins are a better team. This last off season they signed an all star shortstop, a four time gold glove winner at 2B, and DH who has 85 million career HR.

The Twins were just a better team this year. No amount of anger or grindiness is going to fix that, nor is Hawk refusing to kiss the Twins ass, or plunking Joe Mauer. Sox just need better players.
Agreed. This is why they play the games. The twins kicked the SOX asses [AGAIN], and PROVED that they were the better team.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2010, 09:51 AM
No offense, but I HATE this view.

It was this silly view that made KW think to himself, "Edwin Jackson is the lynchpin that will magically make this team WS-worthy, even though the DH sucks ass, the RF can't catch a cold or hit consistently, there's no real LH threat in the lineup, the bullpen faltered [yet again] in the second half, and there is an abject lack of depth in the organization."

The SOX were nowhere near as good as the twins, and the twins PROVED it by beating the crap out of the SOX all season long. Like it or not, the SOX were incomplete as a team, IN ADDITION TO being beaten mentally by the twins.

I hate the idea that ..."I think they were as good, if not a bit better than the Twins," because this is likely to encourage KW to [ONCE AGAIN] put together a flawed, incomplete team as he did THIS year. After all, it was "merely" the mental aspect that beat the SOX right?

And KW is already talking about re-signing AJ to be the LH bat we've lacked. In other words, to [essentially] bring back the same team that were the first losers in the division. Who knows? Maybe sheeple and ozzpologists can contort reality again, as KW/OG re-sign Kotsay, for 2011 too...


I can agree to this in part, but I don't believe that the mental aspect ALONE can explain why the SOX got their asses kicked [AGAIN] by the twins.

After all, it isn't like this is the first time the twins won the division this decade. If it WERE the first time, I might give more credence to the idea of it "just" being the mental aspect that beat the SOX.

Since this has happened before, I believe that the twins were better coached, were better balanced, had better depth, and had fewer holes than the SOX. In sum, they won the division, because they DESERVED to win the division, because they were BETTER.




Agreed. This is why they play the games. The twins kicked the SOX asses [AGAIN], and PROVED that they were the better team.

Thank you. As much as I want to believe the Sox are the better team - they're not. Which is why I posted my question to begin with. I was hoping to see examples of realistic acquisitions that might close the talent gap. I wasn't expecting 5 pages of "Chicago tough" and Phil Rogers bashing.

I doubt Hawk, Ozzie, and the media fawning over the Twins has any impact on the outcome of the games.

kittle42
10-13-2010, 01:30 PM
Anyone who thinks "The Sox need balls" is the answer to this question should be kicked in the balls.

In a Chicago tough manner, of course.

asindc
10-13-2010, 01:39 PM
Thank you. As much as I want to believe the Sox are the better team - they're not. Which is why I posted my question to begin with. I was hoping to see examples of realistic acquisitions that might close the talent gap. I wasn't expecting 5 pages of "Chicago tough" and Phil Rogers bashing.

I doubt Hawk, Ozzie, and the media fawning over the Twins has any impact on the outcome of the games.

I don't think it's a talent gap as much as it is a performance gap. Unless you think Duensing, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey are as talented as Peavy, Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle.

russ99
10-13-2010, 01:59 PM
I don't think it's a talent gap as much as it is a performance gap. Unless you think Duensing, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey are as talented as Peavy, Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle.

That's the problem. Against the Twins Danks, Floyd and Buerhle didn't pitch like Danks, Floyd and Buerhle.

The only mental issue here is during those head-to-head games after the pitchers choked and gave up decent leads, I wonder if the Sox felt they didn't have enough offense to come back or enough pitching to hold a lead.

This idea that the Sox are somehow afraid of any competitor is ludicrous.

Man Soo Lee
10-13-2010, 03:01 PM
I don't think it's a talent gap as much as it is a performance gap. Unless you think Duensing, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey are as talented as Peavy, Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle.

Why leave Liriano and Pavano out of the comparison?

More than a talent or performance gap, there was a price gap. As a group, the Sox starters were paid 2.5 times what the Twins starters made for similar performance.

asindc
10-13-2010, 03:07 PM
Why leave Liriano and Pavano out of the comparison?

More than a talent or performance gap, there was a price gap. As a group, the Sox starters were paid 2.5 times what the Twins starters made for similar performance.

No reason other than Liriano is on par with our top-four talent-wise (if you want to say he is more talented, no argument here) and Pavano always had the potential to show that talent, unlike the four Minny starters I did mention. The point is that their entire starting rotation pitched either at their max level or beyond it. Ours did not, but it was not because they are not talented enough to do it. Regardless of who gets paid what, the Sox starters under-performed relative to their collective talent, while Minny's starters over-performed for the most part.

khan
10-13-2010, 03:23 PM
What can one say about something as superfluous as "talent" on the two pitching staffs. [Just ask a "talented" guy with a lot of "stuff" like Mike MacDougal.]

"Reputation" doesn't win championships. "Talent" doesn't win championships.

Only performance wins championships. Look at the performance of the two pitching staffs over the past two years. Then, look at which team won the division championship in the past two years.


I think we as a fandom should re-evaluate this supposedly-indomitable pitching staff. Set aside your affinity for your favorites, and actually look at what they did, NOT who they are. You just might be surprised, especially considering what some of the guys are getting paid.

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2010, 03:36 PM
More than a talent or performance gap, there was a price gap. As a group, the Sox starters were paid 2.5 times what the Twins starters made for similar performance.
How does that explain the difference in the head to head records? They don't assign scores on a run-per-dollar basis.

Man Soo Lee
10-13-2010, 04:06 PM
How does that explain the difference in the head to head records? They don't assign scores on a run-per-dollar basis.

Because the $22+ million "extra" the Sox paid for similar performance from their starters wasn't available to spend on other needs.

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2010, 04:09 PM
Because the $22+ million "extra" the Sox paid for similar performance from their starters wasn't available to spend on other needs.So then it's back to the talent gap.

SI1020
10-13-2010, 11:37 PM
What can one say about something as superfluous as "talent" on the two pitching staffs. [Just ask a "talented" guy with a lot of "stuff" like Mike MacDougal.]

"Reputation" doesn't win championships. "Talent" doesn't win championships.

Only performance wins championships. Look at the performance of the two pitching staffs over the past two years. Then, look at which team won the division championship in the past two years.


I think we as a fandom should re-evaluate this supposedly-indomitable pitching staff. Set aside your affinity for your favorites, and actually look at what they did, NOT who they are. You just might be surprised, especially considering what some of the guys are getting paid. I agree. Perhaps they are not who we thought they are.

russ99
10-15-2010, 10:03 AM
I agree. Perhaps they are not who we thought they are.

Sorry, but I don't think this is the case, unless you think we have Halladay and Lincecum here.

Look at their career numbers. They're right around average for all except Danks who was better, Freddy with his comeback and Jackson who's off the charts especially in K/9 and K/BB with the Sox.

The Sox starters' poor performance in late August and early September can be directly attributed to the bullpen collapse which forced Ozzie to use them much longer than usual.

Look at the pitch counts for these guys during that period (especially Floyd), they're substantially higher and all in a situation where we were trying to play catchup with the Twins during their streak, going all out with few days off, in a traditionally dead-arm period of the season.

It's a case of going to the well too often in pressure situations, and not many big league starters can maintain performance in those circumstances. My only real disappointment was in Buehrle, as he's the veteran of the staff and couldn't get it together.

Going short by skipping starts for Garcia didn't help either, and besides, a healthy Peavy would have made a significant difference.

khan
10-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Sorry, but I don't think this is the case, unless you think we have Halladay and Lincecum here.

I still think that white SOX fandom AND the stupid, lazy, uninformed media are over-rating this overpaid rotation.

Look at their career numbers. They're right around average for all except Danks who was better, Freddy with his comeback and Jackson who's off the charts especially in K/9 and K/BB with the Sox.

I thought I'd do just that, to see if I am mistaken:

Buehrle
2008: 218.2 IP; 240H; 52BB; 1.335WHIP; 140K; 5.762 K/9IP
2009: 213.1 IP; 222H; 45BB; 1.252WHIP; 105K; 4.430 K/9IP
2010: 210.1 IP; 246H; 49BB; 1.403WHIP; 99K; 4.236 K/9IP

Note that Buerhle's IP and K/9IP are trending downward, while his WHIP is trending upwards as he ages.

Danks
2008: 195.0 IP; 182H; 57BB; 1.226WHIP; 159K; 7.338 K/9IP
2009: 200.1 IP; 184H; 73BB; 1.283WHIP; 149K; 6.694 K/9IP
2010: 213.0 IP; 189H; 70BB; 1.216WHIP; 162K; 6.845 K/9IP

Danks' IP is trending up, while his WHIP has remained excellent. His K/9IP is trending downward.


Floyd
2008: 206.1 IP; 190H; 70BB; 1.260WHIP; 145K; 6.325 K/9IP
2009: 193.0 IP; 178H; 59BB; 1.228WHIP; 163K; 7.601 K/9IP
2010: 187.1 IP; 199H; 58BB; 1.372WHIP; 151K; 7.255 K/9IP

It looks to me like Floyd is becoming less durable, while his WHIP is trending upwards. Perhaps he's running his pitch count up too high?


For these SPs, there are clear downward trends in the aging Mark Buehrle and the now-contracturally secure Gavin Floyd. Only John Danks is consistent or improving on his performance over the past 3 years.

russ99
10-15-2010, 11:25 AM
I still think that white SOX fandom AND the stupid, lazy, uninformed media are over-rating this overpaid rotation.


I thought I'd do just that, to see if I am mistaken:

Buehrle
2008: 218.2 IP; 240H; 52BB; 1.335WHIP; 140K; 5.762 K/9IP
2009: 213.1 IP; 222H; 45BB; 1.252WHIP; 105K; 4.430 K/9IP
2010: 210.1 IP; 246H; 49BB; 1.403WHIP; 99K; 4.236 K/9IP

Note that Buerhle's IP and K/9IP are trending downward, while his WHIP is trending upwards as he ages.

Danks
2008: 195.0 IP; 182H; 57BB; 1.226WHIP; 159K; 7.338 K/9IP
2009: 200.1 IP; 184H; 73BB; 1.283WHIP; 149K; 6.694 K/9IP
2010: 213.0 IP; 189H; 70BB; 1.216WHIP; 162K; 6.845 K/9IP

Danks' IP is trending up, while his WHIP has remained excellent. His K/9IP is trending downward.


Floyd
2008: 206.1 IP; 190H; 70BB; 1.260WHIP; 145K; 6.325 K/9IP
2009: 193.0 IP; 178H; 59BB; 1.228WHIP; 163K; 7.601 K/9IP
2010: 187.1 IP; 199H; 58BB; 1.372WHIP; 151K; 7.255 K/9IP

It looks to me like Floyd is becoming less durable, while his WHIP is trending upwards. Perhaps he's running his pitch count up too high?


For these SPs, there are clear downward trends in the aging Mark Buehrle and the now-contracturally secure Gavin Floyd. Only John Danks is consistent or improving on his performance over the past 3 years.

Good stuff.

It would be interesting to see a first half/second half split for Floyd on this year's numbers, because he looked great the first half.

Seems that the numbers trending downward for this year and his injury aren't coincidental.

khan
10-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Here are a few rather scary lines:

[Recall Buerhle's line from above]

Garcia
2010: 157.0 IP; 171H; 45BB; 1.376WHIP; 89K; 5.102 K/9IP

In EVERY category except for IP, the $1M bargain basement guy pitched better than the supposed $14M ace.


Peavy
2008: 173.1 IP; 146H; 28BB; 1.004WHIP; 166K; 8.619 K/9IP
2009: 101.2 IP; 80H; 34BB; 1.121WHIP; 110K; 9.737 K/9IP
2010: 107.0 IP; 98H; 34BB; 1.234WHIP; 93K; 7.822 K/9IP

Pretty much this is Ace-type stuff, except for the declination in IP. But we already knew that.


Jackson
2008: 183.1 IP; 199H; 77BB; 1.505WHIP; 108K; 5.302 K/9IP
2009: 214.0 IP; 200H; 77BB; 1.294WHIP; 161K; 6.771 K/9IP
2010: 209.1 IP; 214H; 78BB; 1.395WHIP; 181K; 7.782 K/9IP

I don't know what to make of this guy, when looking at the numbers. Perhaps he was in a contract drive in 2009, leading to his abnormally-good year? At the same time, he pitched like **** in the little-boy NL, then his numbers with the SOX were nothing short of miraculous.


Overall, I'd say that Garcia was a STEAL at the price point, and Danks is clearly the best SP in the team. I'd like to see both back, with Danks on a multi-year deal, and Garcia on an incentive-laden deal for 2011.

At the same time, the expensive veterans Buehrle and Peavy are looking less durable, while I have no clue as to what to make out of Jackson and Floyd.


Perhaps the decreased IP production of Buehrle, Peavy, and Floyd is the reason why the bullpen craps it's pants every year in the 2nd half? It didn't help that Pena hadn't been a long man out of the 'pen until this year. In any case, the numbers indicate that rotation is WAY overpaid and over-rated, IMO.

khan
10-15-2010, 11:48 AM
Good stuff.

It would be interesting to see a first half/second half split for Floyd on this year's numbers, because he looked great the first half.

Seems that the numbers trending downward for this year and his injury aren't coincidental.

The numbers suggest that you're correct:

Floyd 1st half: 111.1 IP; 111H; 33BB; 1.293WHIP; 90K; 7.276 K/9IP
Floyd 2nd half: 76.0 IP; 88H; 25BB; 1.487WHIP; 61K; 7.224 K/9IP


Maybe he should pitch to contact more? I don't know, but he doesn't look like an ace, rather, more of a #3-type guy. Having said that, he'll have to up his IP production a bit, IMO.

oldgrouch
10-20-2010, 01:43 PM
1. A closer who doesn't take months off mentally or physically, and doing so throws the rest of the bullpen out of their roles and into disarray.
And yes, it was a shame that Bobby had family issues this year, but the same thing happened last season too.

2. Hitters who can go opposite field with men in scoring position or otherwise talior their approach for the situation.
No more of this hacking or swinging for the fences garbage. It's not brain surgery, get the pitcher into a bad count and look for your pitch.

Isn't this what we are paying Greg Walker to straighten out?:?::?:

Nellie_Fox
10-20-2010, 03:30 PM
Isn't this what we are paying Greg Walker to straighten out?:?::?:Your signature is on the paycheck, is it?

kittle42
10-20-2010, 03:42 PM
Your signature is on the paycheck, is it?

Mine is. He's still calling me to complain it bounced.

russ99
10-20-2010, 03:48 PM
Isn't this what we are paying Greg Walker to straighten out?:?::?:

I'll bash the guy as much as anyone, but Greg Walker isn't a miracle worker.

Someone with bad habits/mental issues like Quentin isn't going to miraculously turn into Ted Williams overnight even with the best hitting coach.

IMO, we need better overall talent. Add one or two guys who are quality hitters into this lineup, and that could make a large difference.

Harry Chappas
10-20-2010, 04:37 PM
I'll bash the guy as much as anyone, but Greg Walker isn't a miracle worker.

Someone with bad habits/mental issues like Quentin isn't going to miraculously turn into Ted Williams overnight even with the best hitting coach.

IMO, we need better overall talent. Add one or two guys who are quality hitters into this lineup, and that could make a large difference.

I think Quentin is fine if you don't count on him as your top RBI producer/hitter. He's too erratic. I think part of the Sox failings in 2010 had to do with counting on him and a 2nd year player in Gordon to play too big a role in the offense. Hopefully, we'll pick up a few FAs that can take some of the pressure off. Who these guys are - and how we pay for them - remains to be seen.

But if we enter next year with essentially the same lineup with only the addition of Morel and the subtraction of Konerko, it's going to get ugly. Hell, even if we find Konerko's equal but add no one else, it's going to be a long year. The talent (or performance) gap is too great in the division much less the league.

BNLSox
10-22-2010, 11:06 AM
I think we just need playoff bunting hanging allover the stadium. That is clearly the Twins' kryptonite.

palehozenychicty
10-24-2010, 07:49 AM
Better players on both sides.

Zakath
10-24-2010, 08:31 AM
As was mentioned in the Yankees-Twins ALDS thread, the Twins are a good fundamental baseball team but lack the talent of a team like the Yankees. They can beat bad teams on a regular basis (KC, Cleveland) as well as good teams that are inconsistent (Sox, Detroit), but they can't beat more talented teams who play good fundamental baseball as well (Yankees, Red Sox).

We have more talent than they do. We just don't always play like we do. We go on long-winning streaks, then struggle against Cleveland, Baltimore, and KC (who we were a combined 22-21 against, while the Twins were 30-14 against those three). For those doing the math, that's a 7 1/2 game swing vs. those three, and we lost the division by 6 games.

The answer is not to go out and buy more talent. Take the core of the players we have (there may be a piece or two missing, like 3B) and get them back to fundamentals. Throw strikes. Hit your spots. Read your scouting reports on opposing hitters (IOW, jam Mauer on every damn pitch). Avoid baserunning errors. Don't charge balls you can't get to, which turns singles into triples. Don't overthrow cutoff men. Etc. etc. ad infinitum.

And stop treating the Twins like they're invincible. As the Yankees have proven, they're far from it.

Lip Man 1
10-24-2010, 10:45 AM
Zakath:

Not saying you're wrong but in fact Ozzie Guillen has talked about many of the same things you have brought up for the past four off seasons. The Sox have turned over the roster and brought in new people yet every season we seem to see the same things regarding the lack of fundamentals.

The question is why?

Are the players the Sox get or develop simply "baseball dumb?" or is the current coaching staff not able to teach these things in a way the players can understand? Remember Ozzie talks (and Mark Gonzales has written) about all the time the Sox spend on fundamentals in spring training.

I don't know the answer but until someone in the organization can figure it out it's going to be hard to do what you suggest...unfortunately.

Lip