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LITTLE NELL
10-03-2010, 09:10 AM
In my 6 decades of beng a die hard Sox fan we sure have not had many 5 tool players.
Richie Allen comes to mind but he only spent 3 years on the southside.
I'm going to go with Minnie Minoso as the best 5 tool player we have had but if Alex Rios has about 4 or 5 more years like 2010 he could be the new #1.
Magglio Ordonez would be a close second to Minnie.
Baines was close but he was no speed demon.
Have I overlooked anyone else?

PS My best 5 tool players of all time; Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente.

Chez
10-03-2010, 09:36 AM
Perhaps Chet Lemon? Not much of a base-stealer, but he had good speed.

SI1020
10-03-2010, 10:37 AM
Five tool players are a rare breed. If I had to name all of them I've seen in 5+ decades of following baseball it would be a very short list. The Sox almost never had a true power hitter for much of their history. I mean for years Gus Zernial had the single season HR record with 29.

Brian26
10-03-2010, 11:02 AM
Thinking out of the box a little bit, the closest two guys in the 90s may have been Ray Durham and Tim Raines.

Taliesinrk
10-03-2010, 11:08 AM
Brian Anderson

LITTLE NELL
10-03-2010, 11:28 AM
Brian Anderson

How could I possibly forget to leave him off my list.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2010, 03:39 PM
I would classify Rios as a 5-tool player.

LITTLE NELL
10-03-2010, 04:20 PM
I would classify Rios as a 5-tool player.

I had him down as a possible #1 in Sox history in the original thread.

WhiteSox5187
10-03-2010, 04:20 PM
Perhaps Chet Lemon? Not much of a base-stealer, but he had good speed.

Wasn't he a butcher in the field?

How about Alexei?

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2010, 04:26 PM
Brian Anderson

If he had hit better, he could have been.

He had natural doubles power that could have developed into 25-home run power, but just didn't make enough contact. He has no one to blame but himself.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2010, 04:33 PM
How about Alexei?

If the season started May 1 and ended August 31 he might be.

I think a player needs to hit 20+ homers and steal 20+ bases in a season.

Alexei falls just short. Not struggling in April and September would help him reach the 20-homer level. But he needs to improve his base stealing technique to avoid getting thrown out so much. (In both 2008 and 2010 he's stolen 13 bases but been thrown out 9 times. He had 14 steals and 5 CS in 2009.)

A. Cavatica
10-03-2010, 05:07 PM
Jim Thome and a set of screwdrivers?

Rikirk
10-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Greg Luzinski?

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2010, 12:37 AM
Baines was close but he was no speed demon.Baines was very fast before his knees went south on him. He wasn't a good base stealer, but that's a different skill. He covered a lot of ground in the outfield when he was young. He was a five-tool player.

cards press box
10-04-2010, 09:53 AM
In my 6 decades of beng a die hard Sox fan we sure have not had many 5 tool players.
Richie Allen comes to mind but he only spent 3 years on the southside.
I'm going to go with Minnie Minoso as the best 5 tool player we have had but if Alex Rios has about 4 or 5 more years like 2010 he could be the new #1.
Magglio Ordonez would be a close second to Minnie.
Baines was close but he was no speed demon.
Have I overlooked anyone else?

PS My best 5 tool players of all time; Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente.

Tommie Agee?

Noneck
10-04-2010, 10:00 AM
Wasn't he a butcher in the field?



No, Not at all. He was a above average centerfielder.

Procol Harum
10-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Harold was pretty close to being a 5-tool guy, I'd say, but his arm and base-stealing skeelsz were not of world-beating caliber--maybe a combined 4.3 tool player

Chet Lemon was what I would call a 5-tool player, but at the lower-end of that spectrum in terms of the total package as a ballplayer.

I frankly don't think Dick Allen had the glove to qualify--he was a fairly decent 1st baseman, but he had been bounced off 3rd base by the Phillies a few years earlier because he was pretty much a butcher at that position. And, because he played at 1st in his years w/ the Sox, we never got much insight into his arm (although on the face of it one would suppose that his having played 3rd earlier in his career would suggest he must've been blessed with a pretty good arm).

Never having seen Minnie play in his prime and just going from the record, I would have to say he might be the only legit, full-scale 5-tool guy the Sox have ever had in uniform (barring of course the possibility that in the dead-ball era guys like Joe Jackson and Eddie Collins might've had power strokes under different conditions).

Zisk77
10-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Wasn't he a butcher in the field?

How about Alexei?

No Chet was good but he one handed everything. Ralph Garr was the butcher but he could rake & run.

Noneck
10-04-2010, 12:40 PM
No Chet was good but he one handed everything.

His unorthodox style of catching with 1 hand , drove Piersall crazier but after awhile even Jimmy realized it worked for Lemon.

Madvora
10-04-2010, 01:02 PM
Wasn't Ivan Calderon kind of built like one of these guys? I seem to remember him having a canon. Am I wrong?
Obviously he didn't put up all of the required offensive numbers, but I think he was a pretty good athlete (which is different.)

doublem23
10-04-2010, 01:35 PM
Tommie Agee?

Agee is probably the best "5-Tool Player" ever to play with the Sox, but of course, they dealt him after 1 season.

This goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, and I'm basing it all on stats, but the only other option I can think of is Shoeless Joe.

Red Barchetta
10-04-2010, 02:05 PM
Mike Cameron if he would have stuck around a little longer. I think we got a guy named "Konerko" for him and he worked out pretty well.

I think Ricky Henderson may have been one of the best I've seen.

JermaineDye05
10-04-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't know, BA always seemed like a tool to me.

TDog
10-04-2010, 02:15 PM
No, Not at all. He was a above average centerfielder.

Chester was a very good centerfielder. He actually had more than 500 putouts in less than 150 games in center, one season. It was a big centerfield, and he caught up with a lot of fly balls and line drives.

Buddy Bradford was a five-tool player. That's what the scouts said. That's what people said watching him in the minors. He hit a ball over the roof in Old Comiskey shortly after he came up with the Sox, but, as it turned out, he rarely took his tools out of the box, promting a 1970 headline in The Sporting News: "Do-it-all Bradford doing nothing."

LITTLE NELL
10-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Chester was a very good centerfielder. He actually had more than 500 putouts in less than 150 games in center, one season. It was a big centerfield, and he caught up with a lot of fly balls and line drives.

Buddy Bradford was a five-tool player. That's what the scouts said. That's what people said watching him in the minors. He hit a ball over the roof in Old Comiskey shortly after he came up with the Sox, but, as it turned out, he rarely took his tools out of the box, promting a 1970 headline in The Sporting News: "Do-it-all Bradford doing nothing."

Daryl Boston was another who had the potential.
Still made one of the greatest catches I ever saw.

LITTLE NELL
10-04-2010, 05:34 PM
Agee is probably the best "5-Tool Player" ever to play with the Sox, but of course, they dealt him after 1 season.

This goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, and I'm basing it all on stats, but the only other option I can think of is Shoeless Joe.

Actually Agee had 2 full seasons with the Sox, 66 and 67.
We traded him to the Mets for Tommy Davis.

ode to veeck
10-04-2010, 06:38 PM
Wasn't he a butcher in the field?

How about Alexei?

I remember Chet climbing the cinderblocks in CF to snag flay balls when the bullpens were on in foul territory and it was 440 to a tall wall in dead center. There was more ground in that CF with its extremely deep power alleys and Chet covered it pretty darn well. As a baserunner he would often leap and slide head 1st on close plays, even at 1st base

ode to veeck
10-04-2010, 06:40 PM
Actually Agee had 2 full seasons with the Sox, 66 and 67.
We traded him to the Mets for Tommy Davis.

... where Agee later scored the go ahead run on the Cubs in Sept 69' that took the Mets into 1st place (they never looked back on their way to the "Joy in Mudville" championship).

SI1020
10-04-2010, 08:45 PM
Actually Agee had 2 full seasons with the Sox, 66 and 67.
We traded him to the Mets for Tommy Davis. Ed Short giveth and Ed Short taketh away. He made a block buster trade that rejuvenated the Sox for the 63, 64 and 65 seasons. Then he goes and trades Don Buford and Tommie Agee after the 67 season.

... where Agee later scored the go ahead run on the Cubs in Sept 69' that took the Mets into 1st place (they never looked back on their way to the "Joy in Mudville" championship).

Watching Tommie Agee, Al Weis and J.C. Martin make contributions to the Mets championship season was a little bit of consolation to Sox fans that year.

A. Cavatica
10-04-2010, 09:18 PM
Harold was pretty close to being a 5-tool guy, I'd say, but his arm and base-stealing skeelsz were not of world-beating caliber--maybe a combined 4.3 tool player

Harold had a fine arm. And you don't have to steal bases to qualify for the "running" tool. Yes, he was a five tool player.

TDog
10-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Harold was pretty close to being a 5-tool guy, I'd say, but his arm and base-stealing skeelsz were not of world-beating caliber--maybe a combined 4.3 tool player ...

Harold Baines had a great arm from right field. He had 10 outfield assists in the strike-shortened 1981 season. (He played 81 games in the outfield and DHed once). After he threw out some runners trying to go from first to third on singles early in the season, he was rarely challenged. Unfortunately, he had to deal with a number of knee surgeries (which continued this summer), affecting his speed and preventing him from playing defense.

Procol Harum
10-05-2010, 10:11 AM
Harold had a fine arm. And you don't have to steal bases to qualify for the "running" tool. Yes, he was a five tool player.

Harold Baines had a great arm from right field. He had 10 outfield assists in the strike-shortened 1981 season. (He played 81 games in the outfield and DHed once). After he threw out some runners trying to go from first to third on singles early in the season, he was rarely challenged. Unfortunately, he had to deal with a number of knee surgeries (which continued this summer), affecting his speed and preventing him from playing defense.

Tomatoes/tuhmahtoes--I'd say Baines had a "good" arm and "good" speed when he was healthy. He certainly wasn't a real base-stealer even when healthy, and his basepath speed while good, wasn't breath-taking--either from home to first or rounding the bags. And when it comes to discussions of great outfield arms of the last 40-50 years--Harold doesn't seem to pop up in those discussions. That means something, and it isn't just because no one respects the White Sox.

But he was a great player--no shame in being great in 3 areas and "only" good in another two areas. I'd certainly have him on my team!

TDog
10-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Tomatoes/tuhmahtoes--I'd say Baines had a "good" arm and "good" speed when he was healthy. He certainly wasn't a real base-stealer even when healthy, and his basepath speed while good, wasn't breath-taking--either from home to first or rounding the bags. And when it comes to discussions of great outfield arms of the last 40-50 years--Harold doesn't seem to pop up in those discussions. That means something, and it isn't just because no one respects the White Sox.

But he was a great player--no shame in being great in 3 areas and "only" good in another two areas. I'd certainly have him on my team!

The reason Baines doesn't pop up in the discussions of great arms is that his defensive career was shortened by knee problems. In 1981, he was considered to have one of the top arms in baseball. His assists came mostly on unassisted throws to third and home while most outfield assists involve a relay.

Zisk77
10-05-2010, 07:51 PM
His unorthodox style of catching with 1 hand , drove Piersall crazier but after awhile even Jimmy realized it worked for Lemon.

Drove my grandfather nuts too (he was an ex-big leaguer). He had a suggestion on what Chet could use his other hand for, but it would violate some of WSI's conduct rules. :redface: