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View Full Version : Konerko will talk about his free agency before thurs game


Rockabilly
09-29-2010, 03:30 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0928-bits-white-sox-red-sox-ch20100927,0,768802.story


I hope he has signed a new deal with the Sox.

ChiSoxGirl
09-29-2010, 08:29 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0928-bits-white-sox-red-sox-ch20100927,0,768802.story


I hope he has signed a new deal with the Sox.

Wouldn't that be the BEST news and a really nice way to end the season?! I know I'd like to hear that kind of announcement from him.

LITTLE NELL
09-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Any speculation up there on the talk shows what this is about?

dwitt76
09-29-2010, 11:28 AM
Any speculation up there on the talk shows what this is about?

I have not heard of anything. I listen to the score.

TheOldRoman
09-29-2010, 11:31 AM
I can't imagine he would announce he is leaving with four games left. Heck, I can't imagine he would announce it at all, even if he did decide that. He would just leave and buy an ad in the newspapers thanking the fans afterwards. I think he will either announce an extension or say he is testing the market but hopes to come back.

Chez
09-29-2010, 11:32 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0928-bits-white-sox-red-sox-ch20100927,0,768802.story


I hope he has signed a new deal with the Sox.

Me too, but if that were the case, wouldn't the team call a press conference to make that announcement rather than having Paulie "talk about it" before tonight's game?

DirtySox
09-29-2010, 11:34 AM
Probably going to say that he plans on testing the market, exploring his options, but would like to return to the White Sox etc.

soltrain21
09-29-2010, 11:37 AM
Probably going to say that he plans on testing the market, exploring his options, but would like to return to the White Sox etc.

In other words, nothing.

VMSNS
09-29-2010, 11:41 AM
Any speculation up there on the talk shows what this is about?

Cowley was on The Score this morning with Mully and Hanley. For what it's worth, he thinks the Sox will decide against resigning Paul next season and invest the money elsewhere.

Harry Potter
09-29-2010, 11:46 AM
Cowley was on The Score this morning with Mully and Hanley. For what it's worth, he thinks...

Not worth much

khan
09-29-2010, 11:46 AM
I'm not yet fully on-board with the idea of re-signing Konerko, for a variety of reasons. I can understand the reasons to do so, and I can understand the reasons NOT to do so. But, I will admit that he's been productive this season, though he probably will not be as productive going forward.


If/when KW announce that they can't re-sign Konerko, due to budgetary constraints, remember the obese contracts that the pitching staff have. Remember the over-investment in a part of the team that has really been rather mediocre this season, relative to their expectations.

TheOldRoman
09-29-2010, 11:54 AM
Cowley was on The Score this morning with Mully and Hanley. For what it's worth, he thinks the Sox will decide against resigning Paul next season and invest the money elsewhere.I guess that means Oney doesn't want Konerko back.

doublem23
09-29-2010, 11:59 AM
Cowley was on The Score this morning with Mully and Hanley. For what it's worth, he thinks the Sox will decide against resigning Paul next season and invest the money elsewhere.

I guess he's got a 50% chance of being right.

spawn
09-29-2010, 12:01 PM
I guess he's got a 50% chance of being right.

Or a 50% chance of being wrong. He'll, even a blind squirrel gets a nut. :redneck

hi im skot
09-29-2010, 12:16 PM
Probably going to say that he plans on testing the market, exploring his options, but would like to return to the White Sox etc.

In other words, nothing.

Spot on.

hi im skot
09-29-2010, 12:17 PM
I guess that means Oney doesn't want Konerko back.

Well played, sir.

Lip Man 1
09-29-2010, 12:22 PM
Joe wrote today in the Sun-Times what could be potentially good news if true. He wrote that he was told by a member of the organization that Kenny could have a higher payroll than expected for the 2011 season giving him more room to maneuver.

Lip

DirtySox
09-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Joe wrote today in the Sun-Times what could be potentially good news if true. He wrote that he was told by a member of the organization that Kenny could have a higher payroll than expected for the 2011 season giving him more room to maneuver.

Lip

And other places have reported that the Sox are considering going young. We are in store for an interesting offseason.

khan
09-29-2010, 12:39 PM
And other places have reported that the Sox are considering going young. We are in store for an interesting offseason.

Too bad they drafted poorly, and didn't bother to go overslot on bonueses on a few picks to strategically get better in the minor league system.

I also can't envision Ozzie being bothered to work with a team with a larger percentage of youngsters...

Noneck
09-29-2010, 12:48 PM
If word was that Paul was going to sign, it would come from the Sox. Paul probably just wants to get the hounds off his back and say he will look into all options. Or that after being there recently, he realized what a great organization the Angels are and would love to get an offer from them. Just kidding or maybe not.

DirtySox
09-29-2010, 12:49 PM
Too bad they drafted poorly, and didn't bother to go overslot on bonueses on a few picks to strategically get better in the minor league system.

I also can't envision Ozzie being bothered to work with a team with a larger percentage of youngsters...

If going young refers to Morel at 3B, with Sale and maybe Infante in the bullpen, I could be okay with that. (Though I'd rather Sale get stretched out.)

If it means Morel, Dayan, and Flowers all playing significant roles next year, things could get ugly.

I'm looking forward to the offseason chaos.

VMSNS
09-29-2010, 01:03 PM
Cowley also said that he expects 2011 to be the Sox "final push". If they aren't successful in 2011, then he expects the club to go young in 2012, which I can also assume the end of Ozzie, as well. Payroll increase next season is also a possibiliy.

Noneck
09-29-2010, 01:07 PM
Cowley also said that he expects 2011 to be the Sox "final push".

If this is true the only way it can be done correctly is by opening up the wallet. Otherwise the "final push" is just bs.

russ99
09-29-2010, 01:41 PM
I can accept the Sox not re-signing Paul, but another impact bat would need to be brought in to replace him.

For all Kenny's "not rebuilding" talk, replacing Konerko with Viciedo would be rebuilding.

In related news, it looks like Adam Dunn isn't going back to DC...

LoveYourSuit
09-29-2010, 01:42 PM
God Bless Paulie, but I am too on the small crowd of those who thinks we should turn the page.

Great career here, second to only the Big Hurt.

jshanahanjr
09-29-2010, 08:22 PM
Kenny better bring PK back, or just blow it up and suck for a couple years. I prefer they don't go the suck route.

JB98
09-29-2010, 08:54 PM
God Bless Paulie, but I am too on the small crowd of those who thinks we should turn the page.

Great career here, second to only the Big Hurt.

And replace him with who?

Dayan Viciedo is not an acceptable answer.

Nelfox02
09-29-2010, 08:56 PM
For all Kenny's "not rebuilding" talk, replacing Konerko with Viciedo would be rebuilding.

...


it would be an insult to all Sox fans IMO......a challenge to the D-Wise opening day center fielder/lead off man notion......

Daver
09-29-2010, 08:57 PM
And replace him with who?



:chopper


Put me in coach...

JB98
09-29-2010, 09:00 PM
:chopper


Put me in coach...

I'm confident Chopper's glove is better than Viciedo's.

russ99
09-29-2010, 09:04 PM
And replace him with who?

Dayan Viciedo is not an acceptable answer.

Again, I think it's certainly possible the Sox cut loose Paul (after offering arb and Paul refusing it, of course) and grab Dunn for a few more million than Paul would cost, granted that he wants a raise over this year's $12M.

We'd have the lefty power bat with the solid OBP, and he's only going to be 31 next season, and while Dunn doesn't want to DH, he'd be our first baseman for the next 4-5 years.

Then trade a starter (Buehrle, Jackson (impending FAs) or Floyd?) for a young RF with talent and promise and slot Quentin in at DH. Add Mitchell to the OF mix and Sale to the rotation once they're ready.

The only problem with that is we'd probably need to go with Morel at 3B and rebuild the non-Jenks pen on the cheap. Finding a different team for Teahen or Linebrink would help too, but I'm not holding my breath, and any deal with those two would surely involve the Sox eating salary.

Kenny made the bed we're in now, but that doesn't mean with some bold moves he can't unmake it.

Remember, sooner or later, Kenny always gets his man...

JB98
09-29-2010, 09:09 PM
Again, I think it's certainly possible the Sox cut loose Paul (after offering arb and Paul refusing it, of course) and grab Dunn for a few more million than Paul would cost, granted that he wants a raise over this year's $12M.

We'd have the lefty power bat with the solid OBP, and he's only going to be 31 next season, and while Dunn doesn't want to DH, he'd be our first baseman for the next 4-5 years.

Then trade a starter (Buehrle, Jackson, Floyd?) for a young RF with talent and promise and slot Quentin in at DH. Add Mitchell to the OF mix and Sale to the rotation once they're ready.

The only problem with that is we'd probably need to go with Morel at 3B and rebuild the non-Jenks pen on the cheap.

Remember, sooner or later, Kenny always gets his man...

I don't have a problem putting Morel at 3B next year. Bat him ninth, let him take his lumps offensively. He can handle it defensively.

Don't see the Sox signing Dunn. The Sox don't ever win the bidding wars for the big free agents. I wouldn't give Dunn a four- or five-year deal anyway. That's one somebody is going to regret three years from now, much the way the Sox regret the Linebrink contract.

I don't see Mitchell making the big leagues anytime soon either. That injury and losing a whole year is a huge setback.

russ99
09-29-2010, 09:14 PM
I don't have a problem putting Morel at 3B next year. Bat him ninth, let him take his lumps offensively. He can handle it defensively.

Don't see the Sox signing Dunn. The Sox don't ever win the bidding wars for the big free agents. I wouldn't give Dunn a four- or five-year deal anyway. That's one somebody is going to regret three years from now, much the way the Sox regret the Linebrink contract.

I don't see Mitchell making the big leagues anytime soon either. That injury and losing a whole year is a huge setback.

The Yankees already have a 1B, so maybe the bidding for Dunn won't be as insane as you think, especially since he's shot down being a DH at this point in his career.

In my scenario I could see Konerko going to the Red Sox - who need to re-sign Martinez and Beltre as well. Then Dunn could be coming here for $17-18M.

What other team willing to spend that much needs a 1B?

Sure, that's a bit of wishful thinking, but with Kenny, you never know...

JB98
09-29-2010, 09:19 PM
The Yankees already have a 1B, so maybe the bidding for Dunn won't be as insane as you think, especially since he's shot down being a DH at this point in his career.

In my scenario I could see Konerko going to the Red Sox - who need to re-sign Martinez and Beltre as well. Then Dunn could be coming here for $17-18M.

What other team willing to spend that much needs a 1B?

Sure, that's a bit of wishful thinking, but with Kenny, you never know...

:o:

I wouldn't give Dunn that kind of money, so I doubt JR and KW will either.

DickAllen72
09-29-2010, 09:27 PM
If Dunn was the Sox' starting first baseman, the Sox infielders would make a ton of throwing errors.

Dunn absolutely sucks defensively at any position he plays. He'd be good as a DH, but not at the price he probably thinks he's going to get.

TheVulture
09-29-2010, 09:51 PM
Another off-season coming up, another round of 'Kenny get yer Dunn'. I'm not going into it AGAIN, i'll just say I'm not crazy about a guy who gets a basehit roughly 18% of the time he comes to the plate as my primary run producer and leave it at that.

LoveYourSuit
09-29-2010, 09:53 PM
:o:

I wouldn't give Dunn that kind of money, so I doubt JR and KW will either.


Kenny wanted Dunn badly, Kenny gets his guy if JR signs the check.

Never say never. The Sox have a few guys very over paid on the roster right now (Peavy, Buehrle, Rios). Plenty evidence JR and Kenny are not afraid to sign the big pay check if need be.

JB98
09-29-2010, 10:03 PM
Of course, I'm one of the evil, bad Sox fans who thinks Konerko is a better player than Dunn. If the money is equal, I don't see why they don't just bring back Konerko. I'd only take Dunn if he were cheaper than Paulie, and I don't think he will be.

The Red Sox might throw gobs of cash at Dunn.

LoveYourSuit
09-29-2010, 10:07 PM
Of course, I'm one of the evil, bad Sox fans who thinks Konerko is a better player than Dunn. If the money is equal, I don't see why they don't just bring back Konerko. I'd only take Dunn if he were cheaper than Paulie, and I don't think he will be.

The Red Sox might throw gobs of cash at Dunn.


The LH factor to me is what swings my choice in favor of Dunn.

JB98
09-29-2010, 10:14 PM
The LH factor to me is what swings my choice in favor of Dunn.

Defense is what swings my choice in favor of Konerko.

I like it when people catch the ball. Dunn's career offensive numbers are actually a bit better than Konerko's in certain key categories.

But the difference in defensive abilities at first base is light years apart. I would hate to see Alexei's error total with Dunn playing first base.

SCCWS
09-29-2010, 10:15 PM
In my scenario I could see Konerko going to the Red Sox - who need to re-sign Martinez and Beltre as well. Then Dunn could be coming here for $17-18M.

What other team willing to spend that much needs a 1B?

Sure, that's a bit of wishful thinking, but with Kenny, you never know...

Russ: Red Sox have Youkilis signed long term at first base. Where do you see Paulie playing?

JB98
09-29-2010, 10:18 PM
Russ: Red Sox have Youkilis signed long term at first base. Where do you see Paulie playing?

They could move Youkilis to 3B and wave goodbye to Beltre.

But if they were going to do that, they could sign Dunn just as easily as the Sox could.

LoveYourSuit
09-29-2010, 10:50 PM
Defense is what swings my choice in favor of Konerko.

I like it when people catch the ball. Dunn's career offensive numbers are actually a bit better than Konerko's in certain key categories.

But the difference in defensive abilities at first base is light years apart. I would hate to see Alexei's error total with Dunn playing first base.


No question on the defense. But how much longer do you think Konerko can hold up with his back and playing 1B 150 times per year?

Give me the better bat, I guess.


I don't know, it just feels like every other year I am sitting here asking myself when the hell can we unload Konerko's contract, and then he has that odd year like this one in between and we fall for it once again.

Chez
09-29-2010, 11:12 PM
The Yankees already have a 1B, so maybe the bidding for Dunn won't be as insane as you think, especially since he's shot down being a DH at this point in his career.

In my scenario I could see Konerko going to the Red Sox - who need to re-sign Martinez and Beltre as well. Then Dunn could be coming here for $17-18M.

What other team willing to spend that much needs a 1B?

Sure, that's a bit of wishful thinking, but with Kenny, you never know...

The team on the north side? Seattle? Atlanta?

Tragg
09-29-2010, 11:15 PM
It would be nice to be able to keep Konerko AND get the athletic RF that we've needed for 3 years.

JB98
09-29-2010, 11:42 PM
No question on the defense. But how much longer do you think Konerko can hold up with his back and playing 1B 150 times per year?

Give me the better bat, I guess.


I don't know, it just feels like every other year I am sitting here asking myself when the hell can we unload Konerko's contract, and then he has that odd year like this one in between and we fall for it once again.

Fall for what?

Konerko has been playing here since 1999. We all know exactly what he is.

He and Rios are the Sox most productive players. They are paid accordingly.

LoveYourSuit
09-30-2010, 01:04 AM
Fall for what?

Konerko has been playing here since 1999. We all know exactly what he is.

He and Rios are the Sox most productive players. They are paid accordingly.

Fall for the expectation that he will duplicate his production from this year.

I don't like my chances by paying him $12 million + for the next 3 seasons when he is 35 next opening day. Not a good gamble IMO.

russ99
09-30-2010, 09:33 AM
Russ: Red Sox have Youkilis signed long term at first base. Where do you see Paulie playing?

When I went to Fenway this month, I saw this in the unofficial Red Sox program - that when Lowell retires, assuming they can't or don't want to sign Beltre, they'd move Youkilis back to 3B and go after Paulie.

The reasoning is that signing Konerko and re-signing Martinez would be better and cheaper than re-signing Beltre and going after Dunn, which would be more expensive and leave them without a MLB-quality catcher.

Not sure how much I take stock in that, but that notion that the Red Sox might go after Paul was discussed by a few of the Red Sox fans I talked with that day as well.

If Konerko isn't on their radar, I can see them going after Adrian Gonzalez over Dunn, as was rumored quite a bit the last year and a half.

SCCWS
09-30-2010, 09:42 AM
They could move Youkilis to 3B and wave goodbye to Beltre.

But if they were going to do that, they could sign Dunn just as easily as the Sox could.


They could but the waving goodbye makes no sense. The Red Sox will go all out to sign Beltre---- he had a career year there. He also had a very good defensive year as well. If Beltre still walks, then they make a decision to go after a 3rd or Ist baseman.

FWIW---Konerko is a native New Englander.

asindc
09-30-2010, 10:08 AM
When I went to Fenway this month, I saw this in the unofficial Red Sox program - that when Lowell retires, assuming they can't or don't want to sign Beltre, they'd move Youkilis back to 3B and go after Paulie.

The reasoning is that signing Konerko and re-signing Martinez would be better and cheaper than re-signing Beltre and going after Dunn, which would be more expensive and leave them without a MLB-quality catcher.

Not sure how much I take stock in that, but that notion that the Red Sox might go after Paul was discussed by a few of the Red Sox fans I talked with that day as well.

If Konerko isn't on their radar, I can see them going after Adrian Gonzalez over Dunn, as was rumored quite a bit the last year and a half.

Gonzalez will be more expensive than Dunn, even if you could acquire him without giving up prospects.

asindc
09-30-2010, 10:11 AM
They could but the waving goodbye makes no sense. The Red Sox will go all out to sign Beltre---- he had a career year there. He also had a very good defensive year as well. If Beltre still walks, then they make a decision to go after a 3rd or Ist baseman.

FWIW---Konerko is a native New Englander.

Talking to some Boston fans earlier this year, I was given the impression that the organizatiion wants to get off the keeping-up-with-the-Joneses(aka Yanks/Evil Empire) merry-go-round, which includes not playing Boras' game. Some team will probably pay Beltre more than he is worth, and the feeling is that Boston does not want to be that team.

Lundind1
09-30-2010, 11:32 AM
If going young refers to Morel at 3B, with Sale and maybe Infante in the bullpen, I could be okay with that. (Though I'd rather Sale get stretched out.)

If it means Morel, Dayan, and Flowers all playing significant roles next year, things could get ugly.

I'm looking forward to the offseason chaos.


Hope they lower ticket prices on an inferior product then.

Lundind1
09-30-2010, 11:37 AM
Again, I think it's certainly possible the Sox cut loose Paul (after offering arb and Paul refusing it, of course) and grab Dunn for a few more million than Paul would cost, granted that he wants a raise over this year's $12M.


Paulie is not arbitration eligible.

From the MLBPA:

"Q: When does a player become eligible for salary arbitration?
A: A player with three or more years of service, but less than six years, may file for salary arbitration. In addition, a player can be classified as a "Super Two" and be eligible for arbitration with less than three years of service. A player with at least two but less than three years of Major League service shall be eligible for salary arbitration if he has accumulated at least 86 days of service during the immediately preceding season and he ranks in the top 17 percent in total service in the class of Players who have at least two but less than three years of Major League service, however accumulated, but with at least 86 days of service accumulated during the immediately preceding season."

TheOldRoman
09-30-2010, 11:46 AM
Paulie is not arbitration eligible.

From the MLBPA:

"Q: When does a player become eligible for salary arbitration?
A: A player with three or more years of service, but less than six years, may file for salary arbitration. In addition, a player can be classified as a "Super Two" and be eligible for arbitration with less than three years of service. A player with at least two but less than three years of Major League service shall be eligible for salary arbitration if he has accumulated at least 86 days of service during the immediately preceding season and he ranks in the top 17 percent in total service in the class of Players who have at least two but less than three years of Major League service, however accumulated, but with at least 86 days of service accumulated during the immediately preceding season."That is a different thing. "Arbitration eligible" is described above, where players are still property of a team until their 6th year. A team can offer their free agents arbitration, and if the player accepts they can then work out a deal or go to the arbitrator. If the player rejects arbitration, the team losing the player gets draft picks, provided the player is rated a level A or B free agent.

Nellie_Fox
09-30-2010, 11:49 AM
Paulie is not arbitration eligible.

From the MLBPA:

"Q: When does a player become eligible for salary arbitration?
A: A player with three or more years of service, but less than six years, may file for salary arbitration. In addition, a player can be classified as a "Super Two" and be eligible for arbitration with less than three years of service. A player with at least two but less than three years of Major League service shall be eligible for salary arbitration if he has accumulated at least 86 days of service during the immediately preceding season and he ranks in the top 17 percent in total service in the class of Players who have at least two but less than three years of Major League service, however accumulated, but with at least 86 days of service accumulated during the immediately preceding season."You're confusing two different statuses. Arbitration eligible players as described above CANNOT declare themselves a free agent. They can either re-sign, be released, or go to arbitration.

Players beyond that can choose to go free agent, they can re-sign, or they can CHOOSE to accept arbitration if offered. If their team does not sign them or offer arbitration, they can just sign with anybody and their old team gets nothing. If their team offers arbitration and they refuse it, and they are declared a type A or B free agent, their old team gets compensated with draft picks should they leave.

Anyway, the Sox can offer Paulie arb, and he can accept it or turn it down. I hope I haven't been too confusing.

JB98
09-30-2010, 01:45 PM
Fall for the expectation that he will duplicate his production from this year.

I don't like my chances by paying him $12 million + for the next 3 seasons when he is 35 next opening day. Not a good gamble IMO.

I have no expectation that Konerko will duplicate his production from this year. I would still like to see the club sign him to a three-year deal.

He probably won't hit .310 with close to 40 HRs and 110 RBIs next season, but I'll bet he hits .280 with 25-30 HRs and 90-100 RBIs. I'll take that, along with the solid defense Konerko plays at 1B, over Adam Dunn.

Don't get me wrong, I would take Adam Dunn as a DH. It's too bad they don't have the funds to bring back Paulie AND sign Dunn.

My general feeling about Dunn is he can play for us if he wants to DH. If he insists on wanting to play the field, he can go elsewhere. He is ****ing brutal with the leather. His best position is clearly DH. Too bad we didn't have him on this year's club, because there was clearly a weakness at that spot.

asindc
09-30-2010, 02:21 PM
I have no expectation that Konerko will duplicate his production from this year. I would still like to see the club sign him to a three-year deal.

He probably won't hit .310 with close to 40 HRs and 110 RBIs next season, but I'll bet he hits .280 with 25-30 HRs and 90-100 RBIs. I'll take that, along with the solid defense Konerko plays at 1B, over Adam Dunn.

Don't get me wrong, I would take Adam Dunn as a DH. It's too bad they don't have the funds to bring back Paulie AND sign Dunn.

My general feeling about Dunn is he can play for us if he wants to DH. If he insists on wanting to play the field, he can go elsewhere. He is ****ing brutal with the leather. His best position is clearly DH. Too bad we didn't have him on this year's club, because there was clearly a weakness at that spot.

If Dunn was signed to be the primary 1B to replace Pauly, he would automatically become the worse defensive player on the team, bar none.

LoveYourSuit
09-30-2010, 02:26 PM
If Dunn was signed to be the primary 1B to replace Pauly, he would automatically become the worse defensive player on the team, bar none.


I would vote for Teahen, Viciedo, or Quentin ahead of him.

Speaking for Dunn at 1B only.


Those other 3 guys suck at wearing a glove, period.

asindc
09-30-2010, 02:37 PM
I would vote for Teahen, Viciedo, or Quentin ahead of him.

Speaking for Dunn at 1B only.


Those other 3 guys suck at wearing a glove, period.

Believe me, I would take a bet with you on it. Dunn plays 1B like the DH position was invented with him in mind. Teahen is in the Sox HOF for sucking at defense, no doubt, but given the choice I would run Teahen out there every day ahead of Dunn. I firmly believe David Ortiz plays a better 1B than Dunn does, even now.

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 05:14 PM
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MinnySoxFan
09-30-2010, 05:15 PM
this it is it...it's the sign!

Rockabilly
09-30-2010, 05:49 PM
Konerko said that the Sox need to make improvements on and off the field, if we are to catch the Twins.

Chez
09-30-2010, 05:58 PM
Konerko said that the Sox need to make improvements on and off the field, if we are to catch the Twins.

Hard to argue with that statement. I wonder what he meant by "off the field" improvements? That covers the waterfront -- from management to scouting to cleanliness of the washrooms at the Cell.

downstairs
09-30-2010, 06:00 PM
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"It could be that I get more to come back here and I still decide to go somewhere else." PK.
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Reads like a good bye to me. I'm sure players are going to tread nicely after the LeBron thing, saying they love the city before mentioning they're outta here.

WhiteSox5187
09-30-2010, 06:00 PM
I really really REALLY hope he stays here.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 06:01 PM
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cst_sox (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox) cst_sox

PK says he will be a White Sox for life even if he does play some place else in ' 11.
9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox/status/26014639450) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

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"It could be that I get more to come back here and I still decide to go somewhere else." PK.
6 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox/status/26014902614) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

Well, those two statements don't add up, Mr. Konerko. Sounds like he doesn't want to be here next year.

Edit - And the "improvements off the field" comment is pretty telling. I agree with him completely.

Rockabilly
09-30-2010, 06:04 PM
If Konerko leaves the Sox can use that money on a person like Jayson Werth or Carl Crawford then make a trade for a 1B.

WhiteSox5187
09-30-2010, 06:10 PM
If Konerko leaves the Sox can use that money on a person like Jayson Werth or Carl Crawford then make a trade for a 1B.

I suspect that the money that would have gone to Konerko has been spent on the likes of Edwin Jackson and Manny Ramirez. Maybe I'm wrong and I sure as hell hope I am.

Rockabilly
09-30-2010, 06:12 PM
I suspect that the money that would have gone to Konerko has been spent on the likes of Edwin Jackson and Manny Ramirez. Maybe I'm wrong and I sure as hell hope I am.

I believe I read somewhere that Sox payroll will be higher next season and they're going to go all out.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 06:14 PM
I suspect that the money that would have gone to Konerko has been spent on the likes of Edwin Jackson and Manny Ramirez. Maybe I'm wrong and I sure as hell hope I am.

Well, Manny wouldn't count because that is only this year. Jackson's salary will be somewhat offset by Jenks (assuming he isn't back). If this truly is the "last stand" and we are trying to do it without Konerko than we need two huge bats and one pretty damn good bat. You could sign one big bat and one pretty good bat (once again, assuming payroll is bumped up a tad) with the money we'd have. You'd have to get creative on the other one.

However, if payroll isn't going up and we are losing Konerko? Just blow it up.

TDog
09-30-2010, 06:48 PM
... But how much longer do you think Konerko can hold up with his back and playing 1B 150 times per year? ...

Strangely enough, at a White Sox game in 2002, I was talking with a friend (I hope he considers me a friend) close to the White Sox who told me that Konerko would be traded in the offseason because there was concern that with his hip problem he wouldn't last in baseball another five years.

I hope Konerko remains a member of the White Sox.

konerko 14
09-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Please white sox offer him a contract and Paulie please resign, this team wont be the same without you on it.

DickAllen72
09-30-2010, 07:00 PM
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cst_sox (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox) cst_sox

PK says he will be a White Sox for life even if he does play some place else in ' 11.
9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox/status/26014639450) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

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"It could be that I get more to come back here and I still decide to go somewhere else." PK.
6 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_sox/status/26014902614) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)
Those two statements combined say that he's not coming back. Hopefully he's just pulling an "Ozzie" but I think Paulie has too much class for that.

It's too bad he doesn't want to finish his career with the White Sox. Oh well...

VMSNS
09-30-2010, 07:04 PM
To me, it sounds like PK is sick of Ozzie and Kenny, and he probably thinks he won't get a significant pay increase from the Sox. I hope I'm reading too far into this, but it definitely sounds like his intent is to leave.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 07:05 PM
Well, lets shop Danks and get Fielder...

mjmcend
09-30-2010, 07:05 PM
Well, Manny wouldn't count because that is only this year. Jackson's salary will be somewhat offset by Jenks (assuming he isn't back). If this truly is the "last stand" and we are trying to do it without Konerko than we need two huge bats and one pretty damn good bat. You could sign one big bat and one pretty good bat (once again, assuming payroll is bumped up a tad) with the money we'd have. You'd have to get creative on the other one.

However, if payroll isn't going up and we are losing Konerko? Just blow it up.

Money is fungible. The $4 million spent on Manny this year would not have disappeared and would have been available for next year.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:06 PM
Money is fungible. The $4 million spent on Manny this year would not have disappeared and would have been available for next year.

Well yeah, but I don't consider him a factor for next year. I see him fitting into "this year's" budget.

mjmcend
09-30-2010, 07:08 PM
Well yeah, but I don't consider him a factor for next year. I see him fitting into "this year's" budget.

If that's true then it was incredibly stupid to hold that money in reserve until the last month before the playoffs. That money could have been spent before the year started to improve the team for the whole year. That money, plus Jackson's certainly could have gotten us Johnny Damon. My guess is that Kenny spent the allotted amount before the season started and then Jerry and Co. coughed up more dough when they realized the Sox were in contention. That money came out of their pockets and due to the lackluster performance on the field and in the stands, I doubt much of it was made back.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:09 PM
If that's true then it was incredibly stupid to hold that money in reserve until the last month of the playoffs. That money could have been spent before the year started to improve the team for the whole year. That money, plus Jackson's certainly could have gotten us Johnny Damon.

They've been doing that for a while. Hell, last year they took on Peavy's huge contract.

soxlady8
09-30-2010, 07:09 PM
His comments to me are kind of wishy washy.
Why don't these guys just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN?

I will be sad if Paulie isn't on the team next year ---
He is the face of the team to be honest !

mjmcend
09-30-2010, 07:12 PM
They've been doing that for a while. Hell, last year they took on Peavy's huge contract.

I looked at that move as more of a pseudo free agent signing for 2010 +. He was on the DL, when we traded for him and there was a question if he was even going to pitch again in 2009. It wasn't a move for 2009.

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 07:12 PM
Konerko said that the Sox need to make improvements on and off the field, if we are to catch the Twins.

He's quite right.

Doesn't sound that he is all that interested in returning.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:12 PM
His comments to me are kind of wishy washy.
Why don't these guys just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN?

I will be sad if Paulie isn't on the team next year ---
He is the face of the team to be honest !

I think he did say what he means. It's pretty clear he doesn't seem to want to play here next year (even taking less money to go somewhere else) but he will always be a member of the Sox.

mjmcend
09-30-2010, 07:14 PM
His comments to me are kind of wishy washy.
Why don't these guys just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN?


Because if he came out and said "I don't like the management, the Sox won't be any better next year, and they won't pay me enough" he would be rightfully vilified. He is being tactful and ambiguous while also thanking the fans. It's the correct way to handle a delicate situation unlike, say Lebron or our own manager.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:17 PM
So....What's Mo Vaughn up to next year?

soxlady8
09-30-2010, 07:17 PM
I guess the posters after me are all right ... I just don't want to see the writing on the wall. I don't think first base will be the same especially after Paulie's great season this year --

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:29 PM
This is just rampant speculation on my part - but I wonder if Paulie feels somewhat jaded they didn't bring back Thome? Everything I've heard makes it sound like they are the best of friends. I think his wife said they still hang out whenever they can.

Maybe Paulie was pushing for Thome to get resigned and it just didn't sit well with him, or something.

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 07:32 PM
Hopefully we resign him. If we do it means we made an honest to goodness commitment to winning. No more Mark Kotsay at DH, no more NL style offense, no more holes in the pen and being cheap, no more Ozzie distractions, but a real commitment to being a winning team. I am not saying fire Ozzie by that, but no more bull**** with his kids, and him running his mouth to the media, Ozzie should be put on a gag order next year. Kenny should have to really try to build a winner, not hope his typical 85 win teams get lucky and the division stumbles. Since 2006 the White Sox have waited for other teams to lose in order to win, 2011 better be focused on winning baseball.

I don't think anyone can blame him for wanting to win.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 07:34 PM
Hopefully we resign him. If we do it means we made an honest to goodness commitment to winning. No more Mark Kotsay at DH, no more NL style offense, no more holes in the pen and being cheap, no more Ozzie distractions, but a real commitment to being a winning team. I am not saying fire Ozzie by that, but no more bull**** with his kids, and him running his mouth to the media, Ozzie should be put on a gag order next year. Kenny should have to really try to build a winner, not hope his typical 85 win teams get lucky and the division stumbles. Since 2006 the White Sox have waited for other teams to lose in order to win, 2011 better be focused on winning baseball.

I don't think anyone can blame him for wanting to win.

Sounds like it really doesn't matter what we offer - he sounds gone. The whole "even if they offer more money I still might leave" makes me think he is gone no matter what.

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 07:42 PM
Sounds like it really doesn't matter what we offer - he sounds gone. The whole "even if they offer more money I still might leave" makes me think he is gone no matter what.

to me it says it isnt about the money, it is about the lack of really trying to win. Letting Ozzie play with this stupid nl lineup, Kenny going cheap with Kotsay and Andruw Jones, Ozzie and his crap with Thome and not needing home runs or a real DH, Kenny with letting the offense flounder and adding Manny at the last second and not getting an upgrade in July. This team was a joke this year.

Also sounds like he is tired of the Twins owning us in every way. They own ozzie, they own the bullpen, the SP. It has to end.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2010, 07:43 PM
Sounds to me like PK is sick of the same things as a lot of Sox fans, the strangeness and off the field antics of both Kenny and Ozzie and the fact that every off season for the past four years, Ozzie has talked about the "little things" and the "fundamentals."

Yet when the bell rings this club looks like it's in a coma, can't bunt, can't hit and run, can't steal bases with a high success rate, can't score guys from 3rd base with less than two outs.

I think Paulie is hoping for one more shot in the World Series and knows that unless something totally unexpected happens this off season (as in the Sox actually take a significant part in the free agent market) it's not going to happen in Chicago.

Classy guy, played very well for the Sox in his time but it sounds like that time is over.

Lip

KMcMahon817
09-30-2010, 07:47 PM
to me it says it isnt about the money, it is about the lack of really trying to win. Letting Ozzie play with this stupid nl lineup, Kenny going cheap with Kotsay and Andruw Jones, Ozzie and his crap with Thome and not needing home runs or a real DH, Kenny with letting the offense flounder and adding Manny at the last second and not getting an upgrade in July. This team was a joke this year.

Also sounds like he is tired of the Twins owning us in every way. They own ozzie, they own the bullpen, the SP. It has to end.


A team with win totals in the high to mid 80's is not a joke.

Andruw Jones had a fine year. Very similar to Thome's year in all facets besides BA and the ability to play a good outfield.

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 07:53 PM
Andruw Jones had a fine year. Very similar to Thome's year in all facets besides BA and the ability to play a good outfield.

.280/.412/.631 vs .226/.337/.485

Yea, no.


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CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
I have to admit that after Paulie's comments today, I suspect the #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/#search/%23WhiteSox) are not No. 1 on his free agency list. #GutPunch (http://twitter.com/#search/%23GutPunch)
__________________________



Here's hoping Paulie remains a Type A. He's been on the border all year.

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2010, 08:16 PM
So is Paulie headed to the Angels after all?

The question is: do the Sox offer arbitration and do they get draft pick compensation?

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 08:18 PM
The question is: do the Sox offer arbitration and do they get draft pick compensation?

Absolutely. He is currently a type A, but it's possible he ends up a B. He's been right on the border all year. No reason not to offer it to him, especially after his comments this evening.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 08:36 PM
.280/.412/.631 vs .226/.337/.485

Yea, no.

Overrated. Who cares about how you get there, all that matters in the actual production...

slavko
09-30-2010, 08:38 PM
His comments to me are kind of wishy washy.
Why don't these guys just SAY WHAT THEY MEAN?

I will be sad if Paulie isn't on the team next year ---
He is the face of the team to be honest !

He can't come right out and say "Management is not doing its job." He can't make a public statement with the season still being played saying "I'm out of here." Nor can he say "I'm staying if I get some reassurances about management" publicly without damaging his negotiating position.

So he went wishy-washy. I'd have said nothing.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 08:40 PM
Overrated. Who cares about how you get there, all that matters in the actual production...

What in the **** does that mean? You mean the actual production that Thome created that was better than Jones or....?

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 08:44 PM
Overrated. Who cares about how you get there, all that matters in the actual production...

Lol.

Okay. Jim has more hits, more doubles, more triples, more HRs, more RBI's and more walks than Andruw. All in less AB's as well. Shall we continue?

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 08:45 PM
What in the **** does that mean? You mean the actual production that Thome created that was better than Jones or....?Calm down...
I don't think posting average and OBP is the only way to describe a player's value....

Pablo_Honey
09-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Damn, looks like it's time to say goodbye to Paulie :(: He sure drove me nuts during his thumb injury years but he still put up decent numbers quietly. The Sox will miss his bat, glove and personality but ultimately the Sox should respect Paulie's wish. Anyways, on the flip side, it will make quite a few people happy to see another base-clogging, station-to-station, homerun-or-nothing player. Afterall, athleticism and versatility are everything, right?

Brian26
09-30-2010, 08:51 PM
Classy guy, played very well for the Sox in his time but it sounds like that time is over.

Lip

Classy guy on a lot of different levels, from his charitable projects to small things like signing autographs at Soxfest 45 minutes before he was scheduled to start on a Sunday morning. I've never had a hard time rooting for Konerko to do well with the Sox. If this is the end, he had a great run.

KenBerryGrab
09-30-2010, 08:58 PM
Not so bleak when you see the full context of his remarks instead of reading the tea leaves....

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/09/konerko-talks-free-agency-need-to-catch-twins.html

Pablo_Honey
09-30-2010, 08:58 PM
Calm down...
I don't think posting average and OBP is the only way to describe a player's value....
Here is the quote that started this:
Andruw Jones had a fine year. Very similar to Thome's year in all facets besides BA and the ability to play a good outfield.
I bolded the important part. Jones was FAR from being similar to Thome in any area. Thome has Jones beat in almost every single important offense category. Of course, each player provided value to his team in a different way so it's hard to compare their values but the fact remains that Jones was nowhere near Thome's level of offense production.

keloms
09-30-2010, 09:06 PM
PK may be leaning towards leaving or he may just be playing another negotiation tactic. If you recall, he also talked in a similar cryptic way just hours after the Sox won the World Series. That said, don't put any weight in any comments being made now by him as no matter what uniform he dons next season, this is all just to posture himself for a bigger deal.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 09:08 PM
Here is the quote that started this:

I bolded the important part. Jones was FAR from being similar to Thome in any area. Thome has Jones beat in almost every single important offense category. Of course, each player provided value to his team in a different way so it's hard to compare their values but the fact remains that Jones was nowhere near Thome's level of offense production.I'd take Thome over Jones any day, but a response that just includes a "no" and some AVG/OBP stats doesn't convince me like it does others.

Rockabilly
09-30-2010, 09:26 PM
Sox beat writers voted 3-1 that AJ won't be next season and 4-0 that Garcia and Jenks will be gone. If they are right and also Konerko leaves.

Who do you think the Sox will replace these guys with?

Rockabilly
09-30-2010, 09:31 PM
If Konerko, AJ, Jenks, Garcia, Manny, Jones, Putz, Omar, and Kotsay all leave the Sox via free agency.

KW will have a lot of work to do this off season to fill the many holes.

WhiteSox5187
09-30-2010, 09:52 PM
Sox beat writers voted 3-1 that AJ won't be next season and 4-0 that Garcia and Jenks will be gone. If they are right and also Konerko leaves.

Who do you think the Sox will replace these guys with?

I suspect that Kenny is going to go with Flowers behind the plate and Dayan at first and then we'll brace for a very long season in 2011.

It sounds like Paulie is sick of the Kenny and Ozzie circus, I suspect he is gone.

DirtySox
09-30-2010, 09:58 PM
I suspect that Kenny is going to go with Flowers behind the plate and Dayan at first and then we'll brace for a very long season in 2011.

It sounds like Paulie is sick of the Kenny and Ozzie circus, I suspect he is gone.

I sure hope not. Punting on next season with the money invested in the rotation would be indefensible. If a quasi-rebuilding period is to happen, I think it's after the 2011 season.

I do think that Paulie is weary of the drama as you said though.

Hitmen77
09-30-2010, 09:59 PM
Sounds like it really doesn't matter what we offer - he sounds gone. The whole "even if they offer more money I still might leave" makes me think he is gone no matter what.

To me, it sounds like he'll leave if it looks like the Sox aren't committed to improving the team. In other words, spending the money to sign him and then say they're out of money and start plugging in bench players at other positions.

Are we going to get a real hitter at RF or DH? Or are we just going to plug in Teahen as our RF for next year. I think that's what he's getting at. He might leave - even for less money - if the Sox aren't committed improving the team. Maybe it didn't sit well with him that the Sox picked Kotsay/Jones over Thome and handed Big Jim over to the Twins.

He might be tired of all the Ozzie nonsense too. OG and KW are fighting, Ozzie's Twitter flap, Ozzie mad that the Sox didn't draft his son high enough, blah, blah, blah. All these distractions don't show a team's management that is focused on winning.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 09:59 PM
"Strictly speaking from the talent and the guys, I believe it's a team that can fight and win,"

"Obviously it's a business, so they have to figure out payroll stuff and when they do that, then hopefully I'm in their conversation, as far as being brought back."

"That's the honest truth."

Yay, lets start looking at these three quotes and start making positive assumptions.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/09/konerko-talks-free-agency-need-to-catch-twins.html

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Really sounds like clubhouse turmoil. I know everyone wanted to throw Cabrera under the bus for having called the team's mentality that of losers, but Konerko is eluding to the same things talking about how you have to want to win and not wait for Minny to come to you. This has been a problem for the Sox since 2006, waiting for everyone else to lose.

soltrain21
09-30-2010, 10:08 PM
To me, it sounds like he'll leave if it looks like the Sox aren't committed to improving the team. In other words, spending the money to sign him and then say they're out of money and start plugging in bench players at other positions.

Are we going to get a real hitter at RF or DH? Or are we just going to plug in Teahen as our RF for next year. I think that's what he's getting at. He might leave - even for less money - if the Sox aren't committed improving the team. Maybe it didn't sit well with him that the Sox picked Kotsay/Jones over Thome and handed Big Jim over to the Twins.

He might be tired of all the Ozzie nonsense too. OG and KW are fighting, Ozzie's Twitter flap, Ozzie mad that the Sox didn't draft his son high enough, blah, blah, blah. All these distractions don't show a team's management that is focused on winning.

But how can he be tired of the Ozzie nonsense? It takes the pressure off the team!

WhiteSox5187
09-30-2010, 10:15 PM
But how can he be tired of the Ozzie nonsense? It takes the pressure off the team!

If it were just Ozzie that would be one thing, but Kenny adds as much chaos if not more than Ozzie.

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 10:20 PM
If it were just Ozzie that would be one thing, but Kenny adds as much chaos if not more than Ozzie.

Bull ****ing ****. When has Kenny told a public crowd he paid his kid 50 grand to stay away from the Sox? When has Kenny's son caused fighting amongst the team and ran his mouth online ripping Ozzie?

Kenny may have made plenty of bad moves, but he atleast carries himself as a professional.

Ozzie in the meanwhile continues to be the manager players in the MLB want to play for least (as voted on by the players for ESPN). Ozzie is the one constantly kissing the twins ass.

Tragg
09-30-2010, 10:23 PM
I suspect that Kenny is going to go with Flowers behind the plate and Dayan at first and then we'll brace for a very long season in 2011.

It sounds like Paulie is sick of the Kenny and Ozzie circus, I suspect he is gone.
If we do that, then those trades of young pitchers for veteran pitching become even more ridiculous than they already are.
Hudson and Richard are at the very least ML starting pitchers; Viciedo and Flowers haven't come close to proving they are ML starting players.
and heck, they won't even play Flowers in garbage time.

I'd resign Freddy cheap; he's a winner and he had a good year this year.
We're going to have to trade one of those high priced pitchers.

I'm also figuring that D'Aza is the most likely to be Guillen's next Kotsay/Wise/Erstad; the only salvation is that he waited until the last week to give him much playing time.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 10:24 PM
Bull ****ing ****. When has Kenny told a public crowd he paid his kid 50 grand to stay away from the Sox?
Could you explain that situation further?

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 10:31 PM
Could you explain that situation further?

When Ozzie's kid got drafted too late this year, Ozzie shot his mouth off in front of a bunch of people how he gave his kid 50 grand to go to niketown because he wouldn't be signing with the Sox. Then the douchey son of Ozzie that Anderson punched out started accusing the sox of sabotaging Oney's draft position.

VMSNS
09-30-2010, 10:37 PM
I suspect that Kenny is going to go with Flowers behind the plate and Dayan at first and then we'll brace for a very long season in 2011.

It sounds like Paulie is sick of the Kenny and Ozzie circus, I suspect he is gone.

The Sox are not going to rebuild next year. Not with a pitching staff of our caliber that has taken several seasons to build. No, if they rebuild, I'd imagine it'd be if the Sox have a disappointing 2011, in which case Kenny AND Ozzie would probably be shown the door.

WhiteSox5187
09-30-2010, 10:39 PM
When Ozzie's kid got drafted too late this year, Ozzie shot his mouth off in front of a bunch of people how he gave his kid 50 grand to go to niketown because he wouldn't be signing with the Sox. Then the douchey son of Ozzie that Anderson punched out started accusing the sox of sabotaging Oney's draft position.

That's bull****, Oney was bitching about where Ozzie's kid was drafted and Ozzie said "I'll send my kid to college, I'm upset cuz he's upset, but it's a business." Kenny was the one who went barging into Ozzie's office and wanted to pick a fight. Kenny was the guy who started the feud in 2008 in Tampa when Ozzie said "if Kenny needs to move some people, he will," and Kenny said "I built a good team. It's a bad idea to throw your boss under the bus," which Ozzie of course didn't do. But Kenny doesn't like to be questioned AT ALL. Olney is a punk, but he is not an employee. He is Jay Mariotti's protege but Kenny takes everything personal. All of Ozzie's quotes have been professional, he's said everything right to the press. People assume that his son is talking for him.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-30-2010, 10:46 PM
When Ozzie's kid got drafted too late this year, Ozzie shot his mouth off in front of a bunch of people how he gave his kid 50 grand to go to niketown because he wouldn't be signing with the Sox. Then the douchey son of Ozzie that Anderson punched out started accusing the sox of sabotaging Oney's draft position.Wasn't there something about further college schooling involved? I think there is more behind this than that.

EDIT: above post... yea

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 10:59 PM
That's bull****, Oney was bitching about where Ozzie's kid was drafted and Ozzie said "I'll send my kid to college, I'm upset cuz he's upset, but it's a business." Kenny was the one who went barging into Ozzie's office and wanted to pick a fight. Kenny was the guy who started the feud in 2008 in Tampa when Ozzie said "if Kenny needs to move some people, he will," and Kenny said "I built a good team. It's a bad idea to throw your boss under the bus," which Ozzie of course didn't do. But Kenny doesn't like to be questioned AT ALL. Olney is a punk, but he is not an employee. He is Jay Mariotti's protege but Kenny takes everything personal. All of Ozzie's quotes have been professional, he's said everything right to the press. People assume that his son is talking for him.

Ozzie's exact qoute is "I'll give my kid 50 grand just to go to college. Ive got 50 grand in my pocket to send my kid to Niketown or go buy something".

Obviously the 50 grand is a direct reference to the signing bonus. Unless you think Ozzie was just informing us all, that day out of coincidence, that he plans to send his son to college with 50 grand.

Either way, it is this unneeded drama that is clearly wearing on the team. I know we always ignore everything negative about the Sox, but players throughout the years are indicting a losers mentality in the locker room, players are sick of the drama, we continue to not make the playoffs,

Konerko has options, which is not good for the Sox. He can go to a team that is nearby his family, that has a better history of winning, that has a professional manager which he respects a lot and probably gives him the better chance at winning another title before his career ends. It really doesn't matter if it is Kenny or Ozzie driving players away, the fact is this does not happen year after year to quality ball clubs.

russ99
09-30-2010, 11:24 PM
LOL. Did you guys even read the article?

Oh yeah. He wants to leave because of Ozzie and Kenny.

Not one quote in that article would lead me to believe that he thinks that...

If he decides to go elsewhere, he was a great Sox player, and best wishes going forward. Truth be told, we need to get younger at the position anyway. I just hope we replace him with talent, not like we foolishly failed to do with Jim and Jermaine.

Personally, I'd love to see him retire here, but that seldom happens with modern Sox star players.

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 11:27 PM
LOL. Did you guys even read the article?

Oh yeah. He wants to leave because of Ozzie and Kenny.

Not one quote in that article would lead me to believe that he thinks that...

If he decides to go elsewhere, he was a great Sox player, and best wishes going forward. Truth be told, we need to get younger at the position anyway. I just hope we replace him with talent, not like we foolishly failed to do with Jim and Jermaine.

Personally, I'd love to see him retire here, but that seldom happens with modern Sox star players.

what changes off the field would you presume he is talking about? Moving the magic hat game to the 4th inning? Possibly changing the seats back to blue? Maybe he wants the cut off sleeve jerseys to return!

But good call, lets get younger at one of the 3 offensive positions that has been a plus this year. Screw his 40 homers and 110 RBI, He is slow, he clogs bases, he hits into double plays, clearly he is not the calibur of player we need!

russ99
09-30-2010, 11:28 PM
what changes off the field would you presume he is talking about? Moving the magic hat game to the 4th inning? Possibly changing the seats back to blue? Maybe he wants the cut off sleeve jerseys to return!

You're insinuating things from a Twitter. That comment is nowhere in the article.

Domeshot17
09-30-2010, 11:34 PM
You're insinuating things from a Twitter. That comment is nowhere in the article.

Read in the middle of the article..where he says the Sox have to do more then just add talent...

Brian26
09-30-2010, 11:39 PM
Konerko was intereviewed on the postgame show by Hawk. Basically said he hopes they can work something out. Hawk wants him back.

JB98
09-30-2010, 11:42 PM
Paul Konerko has perfected the art of talking a lot while saying absolutely nothing. That's a good way to survive as a player in a big market like Chicago. It works for him and I commend him for it.

I've read all the comments he made today, and I get nothing out of them. He didn't give any indication that he was going to stay, nor did he give any indication that he is going to go.

I do think some posters here are misinterpreting his remarks to further their own assorted agendas.

Milw
09-30-2010, 11:52 PM
Paul Konerko has perfected the art of talking a lot while saying absolutely nothing. That's a good way to survive as a player in a big market like Chicago. It works for him and I commend him for it.

I've read all the comments he made today, and I get nothing out of them. He didn't give any indication that he was going to stay, nor did he give any indication that he is going to go.

I do think some posters here are misinterpreting his remarks to further their own assorted agendas.
He didn't say anything, but I think that's the point. He could've said something like, "I hope to be back here," or something noncommittal that at least indicates an active desire. He went out of his way to not say that, and I think that was telling.

Then again, maybe we are reading into things that aren't there. We won't know for a few weeks. But I can't say that I was encouraged by anything I heard today...

fusillirob1983
10-01-2010, 12:16 AM
He really seemed to feel awkward during the postgame interview when Hawk asked him about coming back, and it seemed like he wanted to avoid the topic all together at that point.

Edit: Just to add, if anyone has DVR and can re-watch the postgame interview with Hawk, it seems very telling how uncomfortable he is with the topic. It may just be my interpretation, but he thanks the fans and says he hopes he can come back. However, his body language doesn't necessarily agree with his words. It seems like he doesn't truly believe what he says during that interview.

Just to clarify, I hope Konerko wants to come back to the Sox for a couple more years, but I understand his position on having greater expectations from his employer.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2010, 12:21 AM
He really seemed to feel awkward during the postgame interview when Hawk asked him about coming back, and it seemed like he wanted to avoid the topic all together at that point.

He probably did, he does not strike me as being a guy who enjoys the spotlight. He is much more focused on the team.

whtsox13
10-01-2010, 12:29 AM
If it were just Ozzie that would be one thing, but Kenny adds as much chaos if not more than Ozzie.

Kenny has been no angel this year.

PalehosePlanet
10-01-2010, 12:30 AM
Ozzie's exact qoute is "I'll give my kid 50 grand just to go to college. Ive got 50 grand in my pocket to send my kid to Niketown or go buy something".

Obviously the 50 grand is a direct reference to the signing bonus. Unless you think Ozzie was just informing us all, that day out of coincidence, that he plans to send his son to college with 50 grand.

Either way, it is this unneeded drama that is clearly wearing on the team. I know we always ignore everything negative about the Sox, but players throughout the years are indicting a losers mentality in the locker room, players are sick of the drama, we continue to not make the playoffs,

Konerko has options, which is not good for the Sox. He can go to a team that is nearby his family, that has a better history of winning, that has a professional manager which he respects a lot and probably gives him the better chance at winning another title before his career ends. It really doesn't matter if it is Kenny or Ozzie driving players away, the fact is this does not happen year after year to quality ball clubs.

What players exactly have KW and Ozzie driven away? I can't think of one player that we wanted to stay that chose to leave.

Nellie_Fox
10-01-2010, 12:44 AM
I love how many posters have taken Paulie's comments and assigned their own attitudes to them. "Of course, Paulie agrees totally with my assessment of the White Sox situation. You can read it between the lines, plain as day!"

GoSox2K3
10-01-2010, 01:09 AM
The most curious comment he made was the comment that the Sox might give him a better deal that anyone else and he might decide to go elsewhere. (see quote in article below).

I don't know who or what that's aimed at, but it sounds like he's talking about something. It's more than just Konerko saying nothing. That sounds like the opposite of a "hometown discount".

That might be "reading between the lines", but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/09/konerko-talks-free-agency-need-to-catch-twins.html

Milw
10-01-2010, 01:25 AM
The most curious comment he made was the comment that the Sox might give him a better deal that anyone else and he might decide to go elsewhere. (see quote in article below).

I don't know who or what that's aimed at, but it sounds like he's talking about something. It's more than just Konerko saying nothing. That sounds like the opposite of a "hometown discount".

That might be "reading between the lines", but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/09/konerko-talks-free-agency-need-to-catch-twins.html
I also found that to be kind of chilling. That just doesn't sound like a guy who wants to come back. It's simply not a statement he would make if the Sox were at the top of his wish list.

Nellie_Fox
10-01-2010, 01:27 AM
Or maybe he's just saying not to assume he'll go to the highest bidder, no matter who it is.

MisterB
10-01-2010, 02:10 AM
I know we always ignore everything negative about the Sox,

Either this line needs teal, or you might want to see a doctor. :?:

Hell, if there's not enough negative stuff about the Sox to talk about, we'll make stuff up.

I love how many posters have taken Paulie's comments and assigned their own attitudes to them. "Of course, Paulie agrees totally with my assessment of the White Sox situation. You can read it between the lines, plain as day!"

Apparently Paulie gave the famous "Rorschach Speech".

kufram
10-01-2010, 03:28 AM
I think Paul Konerko is as straight down the line as a man can get. I don't think there is any reading between the lines stuff with him... only what you want to read into it.

If there is a player that can get the 40th home run on the last week-end of the season it is PK... but he'll be trying to just get a hit for the team. I think he'll get the home run.

I want him back. I don't care about the numbers or about the worries about his age or the money it takes. He is the biggest asset the team has and has been for a long time.

It is obvious that it is only about winning to some people and I'm as competitive as anyone and want to win as much as anyone but there are bigger things in life and PK is ours. Do whatever it takes to keep him and I suspect that money is not his only top priority. Listen to him and do it.

Noneck
10-01-2010, 07:31 AM
Hes a smart guy and realizes you dont burn bridges. No one will find out what he really thinks until he is out of the game and maybe not even then.

Bob Roarman
10-01-2010, 08:22 AM
I want him back. I don't care about the numbers or about the worries about his age or the money it takes. He is the biggest asset the team has and has been for a long time.

It is obvious that it is only about winning to some people and I'm as competitive as anyone and want to win as much as anyone but there are bigger things in life and PK is ours. Do whatever it takes to keep him and I suspect that money is not his only top priority. Listen to him and do it.

That's the exact opposite type of view a GM should have. You've laid it out perfectly.

daveeym
10-01-2010, 08:44 AM
I think its pretty simple. Kenny can say they won't rebuild but he also always cries poor. If the sox go young or try stopgaps with retreads again Konerko will go elsewhere even if they offer him the most money.
But with the pitching staff there's the chance they'll go all in and then konerko would love to be back.
Heck kenny doesn't even know what he wants or will be able to do at this point so how could konerko even have a clue.
As a fan I think the biggest risk is the sox lowballing through the offseason and losing out on other free agents where konerko says I'm not waiting anymore on this vision to plan out and he signs elsewhere.

spawn
10-01-2010, 08:51 AM
Paul Konerko has perfected the art of talking a lot while saying absolutely nothing. That's a good way to survive as a player in a big market like Chicago. It works for him and I commend him for it.

I've read all the comments he made today, and I get nothing out of them. He didn't give any indication that he was going to stay, nor did he give any indication that he is going to go.

I do think some posters here are misinterpreting his remarks to further their own assorted agendas.

Once again JB, you've hit the nail on the head.

LITTLE NELL
10-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Hes a smart guy and realizes you dont burn bridges. No one will find out what he really thinks until he is out of the game and maybe not even then.

You are right, I've read his statements over and over and I can't figure out what he really wants to do.
I am surprised that JR has not stepped in on this. I thought maybe after the All-Star game they would have offered him an extension.
If Konerko walks it would be the most devestating thing player wise for me since the Sox traded Nellie Fox.

skobabe8
10-01-2010, 08:58 AM
I dont think hes back in '11.

LITTLE NELL
10-01-2010, 09:21 AM
What happens to the Sox PR wise if they offer him a low ball contract and he walks?
Would it be right up there with all the other gaffes in the JR regime?

Milw
10-01-2010, 09:52 AM
What happens to the Sox PR wise if they offer him a low ball contract and he walks?
Would it be right up there with all the other gaffes in the JR regime?
I think it would be a better scenario than offering him the best deal and he still walks. What would it say about the state of the franchise when your most beloved player--a cornerstone of the team for more than a decade--chooses of his own volition to go someplace else?

Barring some totally out-of-character rant against Sox fans or the organization, Konerko will always be my all-time favorite player... but if he turns down a legit offer to stay here, that would be really painful on a number of fronts.

palehosepub
10-01-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm sure that I am reading into his comments a bit but I get the sense that PK wants to explore "new horizons" and won't be back and he is preparing the fans a bit by his cryptic statements.

Anyway, my single greatest moment at a sporting event will always be game two of the world series where PK hits the granny on the first pitch from Qualls. The pure elation that I and my family shared in section 123 will be someting Ill never ever forget.

I am going to Sundays final game to those same seats in sec 123 and I hope all the fans give a long, loud, appreciative standing ovation at Paul's first at bat for all that he has given us.

JoeyCora28
10-01-2010, 10:24 AM
Anyway, my single greatest moment at a sporting event will always be game two of the world series where PK hits the granny on the first pitch from Qualls. The pure elation that I and my family shared in section 123 will be someting Ill never ever forget.

Echo that. I was in 118. Moment of a lifetime.

TheOldRoman
10-01-2010, 10:40 AM
I think its pretty simple. Kenny can say they won't rebuild but he also always cries poor. If the sox go young or try stopgaps with retreads again Konerko will go elsewhere even if they offer him the most money. But here is the thing about his comments. He wants to see the direction the team takes, and that is understandable. However, it will be kind of hard of the Sox to make all the "see, we are trying" moves before he signs somewhere. Top free agents generally come off the board quickly. Say the Sox sign a guy or two and make a trade by the midle of November, but Kenny is waiting for more dominos to fall and get a final piece or two come January. Paul isn't going to wait around to see the final product.

Really sounds like clubhouse turmoil. I know everyone wanted to throw Cabrera under the bus for having called the team's mentality that of losers, but Konerko is eluding to the same things talking about how you have to want to win and not wait for Minny to come to you. This has been a problem for the Sox since 2006, waiting for everyone else to lose.As I have made clear on here before, I think Konerko is the ringleader of that loser attitude. Cabrera is a douche, but he was right about that. Konerko didn't like Cabrera because he "rocked the boat" and didn't do things the way the old guard (Konerko, Dye, possibly Buehrle) wanted things done. Konerko has complained a few times near the trade deadline how they shouldn't add anybody because the team was good enough to win as is, and I think a part of that is that he didn't want a big personality thrown into the mix midseason who might not fit make waves. Well, waves needed to ****ing be made.

We saw the clique make outcasts of Cabrera and Swisher, and then last season shun Getz when he had the audacity to suggest the team was envigorated by a few young players. That isn't how he wanted things done. You shut your mouth, hang your head after every pop-up to show you are *just so dissapointed in yourself* during a slump, and accept starting the season ice cold and going into another slump in August. Konerko wanted things done his way, and he always got that until this year. His good friends Dye and Thome weren't brought back, and then the Sox added Manny a month ago. Although I want Konerko back (because he is still a good player), I won't shed a tear if he leaves, provided they get a competant replacement and we don't get Kotsay part deaux. We need the old guard gone from the clubhouse. Konerko is a big part of the negative clubhouse attitude and the team being frightened at the sight of the mighty Twins.

asindc
10-01-2010, 10:45 AM
But here is the thing about his comments. He wants to see the direction the team takes, and that is understandable. However, it will be kind of hard of the Sox to make all the "see, we are trying" moves before he signs somewhere. Top free agents generally come off the board quickly. Say the Sox sign a guy or two and make a trade by the midle of November, but Kenny is waiting for more dominos to fall and get a final piece or two come January. Paul isn't going to wait around to see the final product.

As I have made clear on here before, I think Konerko is the ringleader of that loser attitude. Cabrera is a douche, but he was right about that. Konerko didn't like Cabrera because he "rocked the boat" and didn't do things the way the old guard (Konerko, Dye, possibly Buehrle) wanted things done. Konerko has complained a few times near the trade deadline how they shouldn't add anybody because the team was good enough to win as is, and I think a part of that is that he didn't want a big personality thrown into the mix midseason who might not fit make waves. Well, waves needed to ****ing be made.

We saw the clique make outcasts of Cabrera and Swisher, and then last season shun Getz when he had the audacity to suggest the team was envigorated by a few young players. That isn't how he wanted things done. You shut your mouth, hang your head after every pop-up to show you are *just so dissapointed in yourself* during a slump, and accept starting the season ice cold and going into another slump in August. Konerko wanted things done his way, and he always got that until this year. His good friends Dye and Thome weren't brought back, and then the Sox added Manny a month ago. Although I want Konerko back (because he is still a good player), I won't shed a tear if he leaves, provided they get a competant replacement and we don't get Kotsay part deaux. We need the old guard gone from the clubhouse. Konerko is a big part of the negative clubhouse attitude and the team being frightened at the sight of the mighty Twins.

You beat me to the punch. This is what immediately came to mind when I read about his need to see "on the field" improvements. If he plays every year from here on out like a contract year, then fine. If he reverts back to the "I've-got-my-ring-and-my-big-contract-so-I'm-comfortable" Pauly after this mother of all contract years, I will call bull****. There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Getz said last year. In fact, it needed to be said.

Milw
10-01-2010, 11:21 AM
Although I want Konerko back (because he is still a good player), I won't shed a tear if he leaves, provided they get a competant replacement and we don't get Kotsay part deaux. We need the old guard gone from the clubhouse.
Your loyalty is inspiring.

SI1020
10-01-2010, 11:21 AM
Once again JB, you've hit the nail on the head. I also agree with JB's assessment of Konerko.

TheOldRoman
10-01-2010, 11:37 AM
Your loyalty is inspiring.Cool.

spawn
10-01-2010, 12:14 PM
You beat me to the punch. This is what immediately came to mind when I read about his need to see "on the field" improvements. If he plays every year from here on out like a contract year, then fine. If he reverts back to the "I've-got-my-ring-and-my-big-contract-so-I'm-comfortable" Pauly after this mother of all contract years, I will call bull****. There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Getz said last year. In fact, it needed to be said.

What did Getz say last year? I forgot.

spawn
10-01-2010, 12:16 PM
Your loyalty is inspiring.

Well, he may have a point. I'm not saying I agree with his stance, but he may be right.

asindc
10-01-2010, 12:18 PM
What did Getz say last year? I forgot.

Getz was quoted as basically saying that he and other young players added some energy to the team. Dye and Konerko took exception to the remarks, inferring that Getz meant the older guys were running out of steam. Dye in particular took exception.

kufram
10-01-2010, 12:23 PM
That's the exact opposite type of view a GM should have. You've laid it out perfectly.


I'm giving my opinion... not trying to second-guess the GM, or trying to pretend that I am a GM or know more than a GM.

jdm2662
10-01-2010, 12:32 PM
You beat me to the punch. This is what immediately came to mind when I read about his need to see "on the field" improvements. If he plays every year from here on out like a contract year, then fine. If he reverts back to the "I've-got-my-ring-and-my-big-contract-so-I'm-comfortable" Pauly after this mother of all contract years, I will call bull****. There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Getz said last year. In fact, it needed to be said.

I've gotten the same vibe myself over the years. I want him back because he's still a good player, but I won't be upset if he leaves either. That is, of course, they find an actual replacement for him.

Pablo_Honey
10-01-2010, 12:35 PM
That is, of course, they find an actual replacement for him.
Oh you know they will do that for sure!

khan
10-01-2010, 01:10 PM
The Sox are not going to rebuild next year. Not with a pitching staff of our caliber that has taken several seasons to build. No, if they rebuild, I'd imagine it'd be if the Sox have a disappointing 2011, in which case Kenny AND Ozzie would probably be shown the door.

I don't believe that the pitching staff is anywhere near as good as some are led to believe. When I see where the SOX pitching staff measures up to other pitching staffs in the league, I don't see excellence. I see mediocrity. I see wasted potential. I see grotesque overpayment.

We have to face the reality that the SOX pitching staff is average-at-best, despite what the lazy media and the uninformed would tell you.

Milw
10-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Well, he may have a point. I'm not saying I agree with his stance, but he may be right.
Right from a pure numbers perspective? Perhaps. Doesn't mean the sentiment (or lack thereof) isn't nauseating.

VMSNS
10-01-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't believe that the pitching staff is anywhere near as good as some are led to believe. When I see where the SOX pitching staff measures up to other pitching staffs in the league, I don't see excellence. I see mediocrity. I see wasted potential. I see grotesque overpayment.

We have to face the reality that the SOX pitching staff is average-at-best, despite what the lazy media and the uninformed would tell you.

That's true, this season the starting rotation hasn't been nearly as good as we had hoped. However, once/if they start pitching like we know they can (like they did in June and July) then they are going to be the most feared rotation in the league, especially now with Jackson at #5.

I guess what I'm saying is that the POTENTIAL is there. Danks and Floyd are very close to being #1 starters, they just need to turn that final corner, and they are still young. Peavy is already a proven #1 starter, but the issue with him is health. Jackson has explosive stuff, he just needs to harness his wild tendencies. And even though Buehrle is getting up there in age, he's still a solid innings-eater. The problem is consistency. Everyone on the staff is just too damn inconsistent. Once they learn that, there's no doubt that our pitching staff will have the most depth and talent that any other in the league.

khan
10-01-2010, 02:10 PM
That's true, this season the starting rotation hasn't been nearly as good as we had hoped. However, once/if they start pitching like we know they can (like they did in June and July) then they are going to be the most feared rotation in the league, especially now with Jackson at #5.

No offense, and I'm not picking on you. But why do people say things like this? Whether a team "fears" an opponent or not is immaterial. This isn't poker, where you can "bluff" sometimes to bridge a lack of performance.

Like it or not, the pitching staff [from starters to closer] has underperformed. And I don't like the idea of spending as much money as they are for a rotation that's really middle-of-the-road in the AL.

I guess what I'm saying is that the POTENTIAL is there. Danks and Floyd are very close to being #1 starters, they just need to turn that final corner, and they are still young. Peavy is already a proven #1 starter, but the issue with him is health. Jackson has explosive stuff, he just needs to harness his wild tendencies. And even though Buehrle is getting up there in age, he's still a solid innings-eater. The problem is consistency. Everyone on the staff is just too damn inconsistent. Once they learn that, there's no doubt that our pitching staff will have the most depth and talent that any other in the league.
Set all the catchwords aside for a moment. Go look at the actual performance of the pitchers. Go look at OUTCOME, not "potential," "talent," or any of the other superfluous bull**** that doesn't mean much when your team ERA is middle of the road.

The SOX have got a $50M starting rotation that got it's ASS KICKED by minnesota's ~$25M starting rotation. The SOX bullpen got their ASSES KICKED by a minnesota bullpen that had Jon ****ing Rauch pitching significant innings.

So let's cut the crap, and look at the team as it IS, not as we "HOPE" or "WISH" it would be.


To the point of the thread, I don't think that it is wise to lean on a pitching staff that's been over-rated, overpaid, and underperforming. That is, when it comes to deciding whether or not to re-sign Konerko.

Pablo_Honey
10-01-2010, 02:15 PM
We have to face the reality that the SOX pitching staff is average-at-best, despite what the lazy media and the uninformed would tell you.
I don't know about being average at best. They were frustratingly inconsistent this year but everyone save Buehrle and Freddy showed flashes of brilliance not so long ago (No offense to Burlymon, but his value was always his ability to eat up innings while minimzing damage). I don't think they will remain this bad for extended period of time. The biggest gripe with the rotation is the pricetag not their skillset, which is why some people are upset with letting someone like Hudson go.

fox23
10-01-2010, 02:23 PM
No offense, and I'm not picking on you. But why do people say things like this? Whether a team "fears" an opponent or not is immaterial. This isn't poker, where you can "bluff" sometimes to bridge a lack of performance.



Most people who have played competitive sports before would say otherwise.

Pablo_Honey
10-01-2010, 02:24 PM
To the point of the thread, I don't think that it is wise to lean on a pitching staff that's been over-rated, overpaid, and underperforming. That is, when it comes to deciding whether or not to re-sign Konerko.
I think the biggest point to remember is the bolded-word - overpaid. The rotation is getting way too much for us to ignore it and move on. We are stuck with paying these guys top bucks so we might as well try to make the most of it by going all-in regardless of whether or not the rotation is actually good. Paulie makes this team good at a reasonable price (unlike a certain lead glove firstbaseman who will demand big bucks along with field time). He's a fan favourite and a franchise star. I think it's a bad idea to give up on re-signing Paulie. At least try and then see if he stays.

WhiteSox5187
10-01-2010, 02:35 PM
I don't know about being average at best. They were frustratingly inconsistent this year but everyone save Buehrle and Freddy showed flashes of brilliance not so long ago (No offense to Burlymon, but his value was always his ability to eat up innings while minimzing damage). I don't think they will remain this bad for extended period of time. The biggest gripe with the rotation is the pricetag not their skillset, which is why some people are upset with letting someone like Hudson go.

I think putting up an ERA in the 3s with at least 10 wins every year also helps his value.

russ99
10-01-2010, 02:46 PM
Like it or not, the pitching staff [from starters to closer] has underperformed. And I don't like the idea of spending as much money as they are for a rotation that's really middle-of-the-road in the AL.

Set all the catchwords aside for a moment. Go look at the actual performance of the pitchers. Go look at OUTCOME, not "potential," "talent," or any of the other superfluous bull**** that doesn't mean much when your team ERA is middle of the road.

The SOX have got a $50M starting rotation that got it's ASS KICKED by minnesota's ~$25M starting rotation. The SOX bullpen got their ASSES KICKED by a minnesota bullpen that had Jon ****ing Rauch pitching significant innings.

So let's cut the crap, and look at the team as it IS, not as we "HOPE" or "WISH" it would be.

To the point of the thread, I don't think that it is wise to lean on a pitching staff that's been over-rated, overpaid, and underperforming. That is, when it comes to deciding whether or not to re-sign Konerko.

Then also cut the crap about how much better off we'd be without Peavy and Jackson and how Richard, Ely and Hudson are all Cy Young candidates and the idea that we could contend with kids filling 3 spots of the rotation. Been there, done that, doesn't work.

The staff we have in place for 2011 (given overall decent health) next year are all capable of winning 15 games. They've all done it in the past (OK - Edwin only won 14) and other than Buerhle are coming into or are in their prime years as pitchers.

Sure, that kind of rotation costs money, but I'd rather the Sox invest in that than other positions where performance of players brought in as FAs is more hit and miss.

doublem23
10-01-2010, 02:56 PM
The SOX have got a $50M starting rotation that got it's ASS KICKED by minnesota's ~$25M starting rotation. The SOX bullpen got their ASSES KICKED by a minnesota bullpen that had Jon ****ing Rauch pitching significant innings.

If by "get it's ASS KICKED" you mean, the Sox and Twins have nearly identical starters ERAs, and the Sox had more K/9 IP and a better BAA, then yes, we GOT OUR ASS KICKED

This season has been a dissapointment across the board, but if you really want to pretend like you don't see the enormous potential that the Sox rotation has, you're crazy. They are our #1 reason for being optimistic about 2011, every pitcher right now is capable of winning double digit games and throwing over 200 innings. Yeah, they stunk for parts of this year, but when the Sox were hot it was because they're pitching was living up to its billing. It's not a question of if these guys can do it, it's a question of if they can do it for a full season.

Bitch, piss, moan, do whatever you want, but come this March, there's going to be about 20-25 teams that would trade their staring 5 for our starting 5 in a heartbeat.

khan
10-01-2010, 02:58 PM
I don't know about being average at best. The biggest gripe with the rotation is the pricetag not their skillset, which is why some people are upset with letting someone like Hudson go.
Look at the team ERAs, WHIPs, or OBP against or any of the metrics that illustrate a team's pitching staff's effectiveness. The SOX are not among the top of the league in these areas. I agree that the pricetag makes the average outcomes for this staff frustrating.

Most people who have played competitive sports before would say otherwise.
No one "feared" Greg Maddux, but he was damn good at pitching. You can take all the guys that are "feared," I'll take the guys that are good. They're not mutually exclusive, I'll grant you.

But having a "feared" pitching staff is far secondary to one that get the damn job done.

I think the biggest point to remember is the bolded-word - overpaid. The rotation is getting way too much for us to ignore it and move on. We are stuck with paying these guys top bucks so we might as well try to make the most of it by going all-in regardless of whether or not the rotation is actually good. Paulie makes this team good at a reasonable price (unlike a certain lead glove firstbaseman who will demand big bucks along with field time). He's a fan favourite and a franchise star. I think it's a bad idea to give up on re-signing Paulie. At least try and then see if he stays.
Agreed with all of this.

I think putting up an ERA in the 3s with at least 10 wins every year also helps his value.
"Wins" aren't a good metric for a pitcher's effectiveness. They're a team stat, really. Also, Buehrle's age and innings pitched [plus his annual Favre Speech] suggests that ERAs in the 3s may be a thing of the past for him, unfortunately.

fox23
10-01-2010, 03:04 PM
No one "feared" Greg Maddux, but he was damn good at pitching. You can take all the guys that are "feared," I'll take the guys that are good. They're not mutually exclusive, I'll grant you.

But having a "feared" pitching staff is far secondary to one that get the damn job done.



I never said you had to be feared in order to be good. And of course being good is better than being feared. But to ignore the psychological component of the game is naive.

VMSNS
10-01-2010, 03:10 PM
No offense, and I'm not picking on you. But why do people say things like this? Whether a team "fears" an opponent or not is immaterial. This isn't poker, where you can "bluff" sometimes to bridge a lack of performance.

Like it or not, the pitching staff [from starters to closer] has underperformed. And I don't like the idea of spending as much money as they are for a rotation that's really middle-of-the-road in the AL.



Well just to clarify, my usage of the term "feared" was more a figure of speech than as a term meant to be taken literally. However, I do disagree about certain pitchers being feared more than others. If you think hitters feel the same pressure or fear facing guys like Mariano or Sabathia than they do a guy like Carlos Silva, then I think you're dead wrong.


Set all the catchwords aside for a moment. Go look at the actual performance of the pitchers. Go look at OUTCOME, not "potential," "talent," or any of the other superfluous bull**** that doesn't mean much when your team ERA is middle of the road.

The SOX have got a $50M starting rotation that got it's ASS KICKED by minnesota's ~$25M starting rotation. The SOX bullpen got their ASSES KICKED by a minnesota bullpen that had Jon ****ing Rauch pitching significant innings.

So let's cut the crap, and look at the team as it IS, not as we "HOPE" or "WISH" it would be.


Like I said before, I acknowledge the fact that the rotation hasn't been as dominant as they were projected. I agree that for all the hype and cash they're getting paid, they should be better. However, the point I was trying to make is that their poor play is more due to under performance than lack of talent. It's not like our staff is full of AAA garbage or overpaid talentless hacks. Every guy on our staff has the potential to be an "Ace" starter (with maybe the exception being Buehrle). The rotation is young and full of talent, and as a whole, they just need to turn that one corner before it all clicks. Like I've said, they've all shown flashes of brilliance throughout their time here. Once that brilliance becomes more consistent, the rotation is going to be dominant. Hopefully, it happens next year before they blow it all up in 2012.

That's the point I was trying to make.

khan
10-01-2010, 03:10 PM
Then also cut the crap about how much better off we'd be without Peavy and Jackson and how Richard, Ely and Hudson are all Cy Young candidates and the idea that we could contend with kids filling 3 spots of the rotation. Been there, done that, doesn't work.
I don't know where you're reading the imaginary posts that I supposedly wrote that said a DAMN thing about richard or ely. Hudson is kicking ass in his new destination, to tell you the truth...

The staff we have in place for 2011 (given overall decent health) next year are all capable of winning 15 games. They've all done it in the past (OK - Edwin only won 14) and other than Buerhle are coming into or are in their prime years as pitchers.
Again: "Wins" are a ****ty metric for pitchers. They tell you exactly jack and **** about a pitcher.

Sure, that kind of rotation costs money, but I'd rather the Sox invest in that than other positions where performance of players brought in as FAs is more hit and miss.

Thank you for parroting what I've been saying for weeks. Thank you for making my point.

Amazing that the twins, As, Mariners, and others get it done to a greater degree for FAR less money, right?



If by "get it's ASS KICKED" you mean, the Sox and Twins have nearly identical starters ERAs, and the Sox had more K/9 IP and a better BAA, then yes, we GOT OUR ASS KICKED
Yeah, and they were able to invest the difference in wages to improve other parts of their team. While the SOX lacked the money to make improvements, the twins were able to do so.

While our $50M rotation is watching the playoffs on TV [yet AGAIN], their ~$25M rotation will be, you know, PLAYING in the playoffs.

This season has been a dissapointment across the board, but if you really want to pretend like you don't see the enormous potential that the Sox rotation has, you're crazy.
And don't pretend that this media-driven hype about the pitching staff wasn't overblown in THIS and last season. I have equally as many doubts that the staff will be good enough, and about how good the rest of the team will be.

They are our #1 reason for being optimistic about 2011, every pitcher right now is capable of [B]winning double digit games and throwing over 200 innings.
Again: Wins are a ****ty measurement of a starting pitcher's effectiveness. ERA isn't great, but it tells you a lot more about a pitcher than "wins." WHIP, OBP against, hell even Quality starts are ALL better measurements of how a starting pitcher's effectiveness.

Yeah, they stunk for parts of this year, but when the Sox were hot it was because they're pitching was living up to its billing. It's not a question of if these guys can do it, it's a question of if they can do it for a full season.
Have they done so over the course of a full season? Have they lived up to their reputation in a few seasons? Has Cy Jackson had an above average ERA+ over his career or in a few seasons? Has Peavy had more than 150IP in awhile?

There are just as many questions here, IMO.


Bitch, piss, moan, do whatever you want, but come this March, there's going to be about 20-25 teams that would trade their staring 5 for our starting 5 in a heartbeat.
And there are plenty of teams that did BETTER with less money wasted on their staffs. Of course, there just might be 20-25 teams with better DHs than the SOX, too. Or 20-25 teams with better RFers than the SOX. Or 20-25 teams with better C/1B/3B than the SOX. Or 20-25 teams with better closers than the SOX.


It isn't "just" about the starting 5, after all...

kufram
10-01-2010, 03:21 PM
The duel between pitcher and batter is a bit like poker, actually, and IF a batter fears a pitcher of course the pitcher has a huge advantage. A pitcher/catcher/manager is trying to "bluff" the batter and get him guessing on what is coming. A mental edge wins the battle.

I doubt, however, that ANY major league hitter worth anything fears any pitcher.

What I do know is that when I listen to other managers, ex-player broadcasters, and commentators (yeah, I don't rate them much either) talk about playing the White Sox they seem to think we have a formidable pitching staff that just lacked consistency at times.

But then it's far easier to just say that everything is broken.

AZChiSoxFan
10-01-2010, 03:24 PM
But here is the thing about his comments. He wants to see the direction the team takes, and that is understandable. However, it will be kind of hard of the Sox to make all the "see, we are trying" moves before he signs somewhere. Top free agents generally come off the board quickly. Say the Sox sign a guy or two and make a trade by the midle of November, but Kenny is waiting for more dominos to fall and get a final piece or two come January. Paul isn't going to wait around to see the final product.

As I have made clear on here before, I think Konerko is the ringleader of that loser attitude. Cabrera is a douche, but he was right about that. Konerko didn't like Cabrera because he "rocked the boat" and didn't do things the way the old guard (Konerko, Dye, possibly Buehrle) wanted things done. Konerko has complained a few times near the trade deadline how they shouldn't add anybody because the team was good enough to win as is, and I think a part of that is that he didn't want a big personality thrown into the mix midseason who might not fit make waves. Well, waves needed to ****ing be made.

We saw the clique make outcasts of Cabrera and Swisher, and then last season shun Getz when he had the audacity to suggest the team was envigorated by a few young players. That isn't how he wanted things done. You shut your mouth, hang your head after every pop-up to show you are *just so dissapointed in yourself* during a slump, and accept starting the season ice cold and going into another slump in August. Konerko wanted things done his way, and he always got that until this year. His good friends Dye and Thome weren't brought back, and then the Sox added Manny a month ago. Although I want Konerko back (because he is still a good player), I won't shed a tear if he leaves, provided they get a competant replacement and we don't get Kotsay part deaux. We need the old guard gone from the clubhouse. Konerko is a big part of the negative clubhouse attitude and the team being frightened at the sight of the mighty Twins.

:rolleyes: Thanks for sharing Dr. Phil.

Nellie_Fox
10-01-2010, 03:25 PM
:rolleyes: Thanks for sharing Dr. Phil.Don't make it personal.

KenBerryGrab
10-01-2010, 03:33 PM
This almost casual discounting of Konerko's worth to the team is troubling. Sure, let him and his "defeatist" attitude walk. Where are you going to get the .290-370.-.485 to fill his shoes?

I'd be up for a juicy two-year deal with a mutual option, but he'll probably command 3 years at least. And that is a risk, indeed.

But don't pretend all will be rosy and grinderific if Paulie walks. His "problematic" presence has been a big reason the White Sox have been in the main relevant and contending for most of the last decade.

kufram
10-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Have they done so over the course of a full season? Have they lived up to their reputation in a few seasons? Has Cy Jackson had an above average ERA+ over his career or in a few seasons? Has Peavy had more than 150IP in awhile?

There are just as many questions here, IMO.

And there are plenty of teams that did BETTER with less money wasted on their staffs. Of course, there just might be 20-25 teams with better DHs than the SOX, too. Or 20-25 teams with better RFers than the SOX. Or 20-25 teams with better C/1B/3B than the SOX. Or 20-25 teams with better closers than the SOX.


It isn't "just" about the starting 5, after all...

I've been skimming your rants because they are just the same thing over and over (you know better than everyone here) but seriously... you can't think that 20-25 teams have better 1B than we do. PK is in the MVP discussion from a team that didn't make the playoffs. Maybe you made a mistake?

20-25 teams that would turn away TCQ's production even with the low average? How many games did his fielding cost us?

I think you'll look pretty silly when the pitching holds up well for the next 3-4 years. Of course they earn too much. Good pitchers do.

I think it was you that was ranting about "Grandpa Omar" when he was signed, wasn't it? .... Grandpa did ok.

khan
10-01-2010, 05:09 PM
I've been skimming your rants because they are just the same thing over and over (you know better than everyone here)
Thank you for coming to this realization. Actually, you will be thanking yourself.

but seriously... you can't think that 20-25 teams have better 1B than we do. PK is in the MVP discussion from a team that didn't make the playoffs. Maybe you made a mistake?
The other poster referenced the 20-25 teams in 2011 who will be somehow lusting after a $50M rotation that finished solidly in the middle of the pack in terms of ERA, WHIP, and other measures. [Even though other, better rotations cost much less to their teams.]

Therefore, I was referencing the possibility of the 2011 season beginning with a sub-standard 1B, should there not be a plan for this position. Thanks, in part, to poor budgetary management. [The thought of Viciedo being the starting 1B makes me ill.]

20-25 teams that would turn away TCQ's production even with the low average? How many games did his fielding cost us?
Firstly, he's basically a DH at this point. Both the eye test and every metric that attempts to measure a fielder's effectiveness points to him being a butcher in the OF. Which is a shame, because at an age where he should be useful both at the plate and in the field, he's basically an aging Jermaine Dye with the glove, only that Quentin is 28.

Secondly, his poor average/poor OBP, and his inability to adjust his approach (regardless of count, game situation, opposing pitcher, etc...) speaks ill of his abilities at the plate. Pitchers keep throwing him sliders in the dirt, and he keeps swinging for the fences. Once in awhile he gets lucky, but more frequently, he doesn't.

Thirdly, he's a china doll who gets injured with regularity. He has YET to play in 140 or more games in a season.

In sum, I'm not alone in stating that if Quentin were not back in 2011, it wouldn't be that big of a loss. By next season, 2008 will then be 3 years ago.

I think you'll look pretty silly when the pitching holds up well for the next 3-4 years. Of course they earn too much. Good pitchers do.
I'd like that, if that were the case.

But we've been waiting for the past few seasons for this over-hyped and over-paid pitching staff to live up to their expectations. Compared to several teams in the AL, [Minn, oakland, seattle, texas, and others] this team is more reputation than accomplishment.

I think it was you that was ranting about "Grandpa Omar" when he was signed, wasn't it? .... Grandpa did ok.
It might have been me, I honestly don't remember. On the other hand, Vizquel's performance, while a pleasant surprise, is not the rule for men his age.

[Call me crazy for preferring players younger than 43, right?]

TheOldRoman
10-01-2010, 05:16 PM
:rolleyes: Thanks for sharing Dr. Phil.I don't think I said anything inflamatory or attempted to get into his phyche. The team has had a losing attitude in the clubhouse for many years. When everything goes well, it goes great, and everyone is having a great time. When the team is doing poorly, it is a morgue atmosphere (as Cabrera noted), nobody has fun, and pretty much the entire team goes into an extended slump. Konerko is the captain and a clubhouse leader, so he should look in the mirror if he has questions about the team's attitude. Obviously there are questions about management and coaching, but nobody has had more influence on the clubouse culture than Konerko.

I think the issue is, Paul doesn't really want to be captain. He isn't a "ra-ra" type guy, more of a lead by example type. However, there are times when someone needs to step up and put a foot up someone's ass. Konerko isn't the guy to do that, but whenever anyone tried (after 2005, anyway), Konerko got uppity about it. Cabrera, Swisher, and Getz all didn't fit in with the atmosphere Konerko and Dye wanted in the clubhouse. That was published fact. I am not trying to blame the failures of the past five years on Paul, but he had as big a hand in the team's mindset about the Twins as anyone.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Roman has it described pretty well. No vocal leaders, no one to call out teammates privately or if necessary to the media for offering excuses, losing to garbage teams, being totally impotent against pitchers they've never seen before etc.

Ozzie may be part of the reason for this and no one is trying to usurp his authority but sometimes the greatest impact comes from a teammate not a manager or a coach.

Lip

Chez
10-01-2010, 07:02 PM
Lots of interesting theories and speculation being floated out on the make-up of the White Sox club house and psyche, the claimed absence and purported need for an ass-kicking leader and Konerko's purported failure to be the ass-kicker that the team purportedly needs etc. But it really is nothing more than speculation and conjecture since none of us have actually been part of the team.

Who was Sox ass-kicking leader in 2005? Carl Everett? Anyone? Who is the Yankees' current ass-kicking leader? Jeter? He doesn't seem (to me) to be the ass-kicking type. Maybe the whole concept of the need to have an ass-kicking leader in a baseball club house is little more than an overly ripe cliche?

KenBerryGrab
10-01-2010, 07:21 PM
Bringing back the ghost of Eddie Stanky will not lift the club past the Twins.

TheOldRoman
10-01-2010, 07:26 PM
Bringing back the ghost of Eddie Stanky will not lift the club past the Twins.Right... because the Twins are SOO much more talented. And yet, when you take out the games in which they played eachother, the Twins' record is 80-61 and the Sox' record is 81-60. And yes, the Twins got to play the National League, too. So, how can the Sox team, which is so inferior to the Twins, put up the same record (actually one game better) against other teams but go 5-13 against the Twins? There is something more than talent going into that equation.

DickAllen72
10-01-2010, 08:43 PM
Who was Sox ass-kicking leader in 2005? Carl Everett?
Yes.

SI1020
10-01-2010, 10:12 PM
:rolleyes: Thanks for sharing Dr. Phil. Eye rolls are so overrated and I think he made some good assessments about the dynamic in the clubhouse.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2010, 11:29 PM
Chez:

In 2005 the leaders were Everett and Rowand. And for what it's worth I've had members of the front office tell me the exact same thing, that the lack of real vocal leaders on this club was an issue in the past and continues to be so.

Not saying it was PK's fault and they never told me that either just that they feel this team needs some of those badly.

Again take it for what it's worth.

Lip

hawkjt
10-02-2010, 09:03 AM
But here is the thing about his comments. He wants to see the direction the team takes, and that is understandable. However, it will be kind of hard of the Sox to make all the "see, we are trying" moves before he signs somewhere. Top free agents generally come off the board quickly. Say the Sox sign a guy or two and make a trade by the midle of November, but Kenny is waiting for more dominos to fall and get a final piece or two come January. Paul isn't going to wait around to see the final product.

As I have made clear on here before, I think Konerko is the ringleader of that loser attitude. Cabrera is a douche, but he was right about that. Konerko didn't like Cabrera because he "rocked the boat" and didn't do things the way the old guard (Konerko, Dye, possibly Buehrle) wanted things done. Konerko has complained a few times near the trade deadline how they shouldn't add anybody because the team was good enough to win as is, and I think a part of that is that he didn't want a big personality thrown into the mix midseason who might not fit make waves. Well, waves needed to ****ing be made.

We saw the clique make outcasts of Cabrera and Swisher, and then last season shun Getz when he had the audacity to suggest the team was envigorated by a few young players. That isn't how he wanted things done. You shut your mouth, hang your head after every pop-up to show you are *just so dissapointed in yourself* during a slump, and accept starting the season ice cold and going into another slump in August. Konerko wanted things done his way, and he always got that until this year. His good friends Dye and Thome weren't brought back, and then the Sox added Manny a month ago. Although I want Konerko back (because he is still a good player), I won't shed a tear if he leaves, provided they get a competant replacement and we don't get Kotsay part deaux. We need the old guard gone from the clubhouse. Konerko is a big part of the negative clubhouse attitude and the team being frightened at the sight of the mighty Twins.


I simply disagree with most of this. This reminds me of how our last ''best player'' Frank Thomas got ripped for his leadership(or lack thereof). When the team does not win the division, why is it the best player's fault? PK has been a rock thru the last decade.
Who is the ideal leader in the clubhouse? Jeter? He is a lot like PK...no steroids,no screaming in the clubhouse, no pointing fingers at teammates or manager, always there for the media,face of the franchise....oh yea, btw,he can play on the field. And he had a lot of teammates who can play on the field.

I cannot believe that you cite Nick Swisher,Getz and Orlando Cabrera as somehow wronged by the King of the Clubhouse. Swisher and Cabrera clashed with Ozzie. And that is a positive? Yea, we should have kept Swisher and traded PK to NY.

PK is not going out at trading deadline and screaming that Kenny needs to dump the no-talent teammates around him like some dbs out there....hammer him for that?

I guess it is just the old saying, familiarity breeds contempt. Tired of falling short of the Twins so lets lop heads,starting with the best player. You would have really enjoyed this club this year without PK in the lineup,I am sure. The clubhouse atmosphere would be transformed merely by the absence of the King. On field, we would have been in last place but who cares about on-field nonsense, it is that losing mentality in the clubhouse that kept them behind the twins. Same crap we heard about Frank....hes the problem,not the solution. Not buying.

DickAllen72
10-02-2010, 11:46 AM
Chez:

In 2005 the leaders were Everett and Rowand. And for what it's worth I've had members of the front office tell me the exact same thing, that the lack of real vocal leaders on this club was an issue in the past and continues to be so.

Not saying it was PK's fault and they never told me that either just that they feel this team needs some of those badly.

Again take it for what it's worth.

Lip
I believe it. Some people, including Hawk, were saying after the Sox got rid of Rowand and Everett that they didn't need "leaders" in the clubhouse because Ozzie was their leader. Turns out Ozzie isn't all that effective as a vocal leader and he needed guys like Everett and Rowand around to keep the rest of the guys from getting into a funk as the grind of the season wears on.

Also, Everett always seemed to be fired up when the Sox would play the Twins. I know it's in vogue nowadays to discount the mental and emotional aspects of sports, especially in baseball, but those intangibles do have an effect on physical performance.

soxfanreggie
10-02-2010, 12:13 PM
Article from Jon Greenberg about retaining Konerko:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/columns/story?id=5635625

jdm2662
10-02-2010, 12:17 PM
I believe it. Some people, including Hawk, were saying after the Sox got rid of Rowand and Everett that they didn't need "leaders" in the clubhouse because Ozzie was their leader. Turns out Ozzie isn't all that effective as a vocal leader and he needed guys like Everett and Rowand around to keep the rest of the guys from getting into a funk as the grind of the season wears on.

Also, Everett always seemed to be fired up when the Sox would play the Twins. I know it's in vogue nowadays to discount the mental and emotional aspects of sports, especially in baseball, but those intangibles do have an effect on physical performance.

Everett, especially early in the season, had a lot of big hits against the Twins. There was at least three times I can remember him getting a first inning home run against them. He might've stunk down the stretch, but he did have a lot of key moments early on.

DickAllen72
10-02-2010, 02:05 PM
Everett, especially early in the season, had a lot of big hits against the Twins. There was at least three times I can remember him getting a first inning home run against them. He might've stunk down the stretch, but he did have a lot of key moments early on.
He had a couple of big triples down the stretch - in the final week or so of the season- that helped the Sox clinch the title.

Brian26
10-02-2010, 02:42 PM
He had a couple of big triples down the stretch - in the final week or so of the season- that helped the Sox clinch the title.

Both at Comerica on back-to-back days. Carl was a big part of that team. There's a story that's floated around that, down the stretch, Everett told AJ to turn off the Gators game on tv and get ready to play baseball, and that supposedly shook up the clubhouse a bit.

JB98
10-02-2010, 03:35 PM
I like Carl Everett. He always played hard for the Sox.

Konerko never has been and never will be an in-your-face leader. That's not who he is.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2010, 04:17 PM
I think the team needs to move on. I like PK, but he will never replicate this year. He's possibly going to be overpaid by as early as next year. He's been at or around league average his whole career. I also agree with Roman that the clubhouse culture needs to change. My biggest fear is losing his defense. He is great at picking balls in the dirt and Alexi doesn't have the most accurate arm.

I still heart Crazy Carl. He's the most underated player on that team. Him and pods carried us for the first month or so of the season. I also liked his toughness.

The Twins starters may have had a decent year, but outside of Liriano, they dont have the upside to win in the playoffs. Actually their entire team reminds more of us from the early 2000's a lot.

DirtySox
10-03-2010, 12:26 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/244888190/mug_normal.jpg
MDGonzales (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales) Mark Gonzales
KW wants PK back but weary of several FA factors
3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales/status/26280456834)



http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/244888190/mug_normal.jpg
MDGonzales (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales) Mark Gonzales
KW stresses need for LH run producer
5 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales/status/26280270846)

DirtySox
10-03-2010, 01:25 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
KW named Dayan as heir apparent if PK doesn't come back, and was very pleased the infield is a "defensive unit with offensive capability"
59 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285236490)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
Sounds like payroll projects down fr this yr but KW said Reinsdorf has learned to build in a Ken Williams "overbudget #" for a late addition
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285467009)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/925738614/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Konerko on coming back: "I really have no opinion. I don't know what to think. Kind of exciting, kind of scary at same time."
45 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/26285548532)

SoxSpeed22
10-03-2010, 01:58 PM
I think an infield of Viciedo-Beckham-Alexei and Morel has some good upside and will be able to play for a very long time, but like any other group of young players (except Alexei), they're going to have growing pains. I would rather not see Konerko leave, but if he leaves, he leaves.
As for the payroll for next season, letting AJ walk will take $6 million off the books, I'm not sure what will happen with Quentin and Jenks. I expect payroll to drop some, then go back up during the 2011 season.

sox1970
10-03-2010, 02:51 PM
If the Sox can land Adam Dunn, I'd be ok with parting with Paulie. We'll see what they can do.

soxfanreggie
10-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Thankfully the D-Backs aren't at the top of the NL West, so I don't think we'll see him out in AZ. The only team I'd be worried about right now is LA because of his relationship with Soscia.

Hopefully we can get something worked out to keep him here for what are likely to be the last 2 or 3 seasons of his career. If he does walk, we have $25 million in payroll coming off the books the sign a 1B/DH, catcher, and closer. If Jenks or AJ fill those roles, I can't see the Sox wanting to spend more on them than they are making this season. Maybe AJ signs a 2-year deal with some nice incentives to be our stop-gap until we get someone ready for late-2011 or to begin 2012.

If we can get AJ to sign for a couple million less, then that's a few million more to pool with PK's money to get Dunn. Dunn is likely looking at his last major contract at...4 or 5 years? That would put him about 35. If they're looking at someone internal for closer, then maybe they take part of Jenks money for another reliever (lefty if it's Thornton) and bank the savings for elsewhere.

Hitmen77
10-03-2010, 05:17 PM
I think an infield of Viciedo-Beckham-Alexei and Morel has some good upside and will be able to play for a very long time, but like any other group of young players (except Alexei), they're going to have growing pains. I would rather not see Konerko leave, but if he leaves, he leaves.
As for the payroll for next season, letting AJ walk will take $6 million off the books, I'm not sure what will happen with Quentin and Jenks. I expect payroll to drop some, then go back up during the 2011 season.

The thing is, C is the one position where we don't have an in-house replacement.

I'm not saying I like the in-house alternatives elsewhere, but the Sox could plug Viciedo at 1B and use Quentin/Teahen at RF/DH. For catcher, they need to get somebody. We can't get by with just Castro/Flowers/Lucy IMO.

DickAllen72
10-03-2010, 05:24 PM
If the Sox can land Adam Dunn, I'd be ok with parting with Paulie. We'll see what they can do.
Dunn is on record numerous times saying he doesn't want to be a DH.

SoxSpeed22
10-03-2010, 05:24 PM
The thing is, C is the one position where we don't have an in-house replacement.

I'm not saying I like the in-house alternatives elsewhere, but the Sox could plug Viciedo at 1B and use Quentin/Teahen at RF/DH. For catcher, they need to get somebody. We can't get by with just Castro/Flowers/Lucy IMO.Flowers has done nothing to earn it. I wouldn't be surprised if they traded for another guy. I don't know who they would get or who they would give up.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2010, 05:30 PM
The thing is, C is the one position where we don't have an in-house replacement.

I'm not saying I like the in-house alternatives elsewhere, but the Sox could plug Viciedo at 1B and use Quentin/Teahen at RF/DH. For catcher, they need to get somebody. We can't get by with just Castro/Flowers/Lucy IMO.

I know Flowers had a tough year, but its hard to imagine him being worse than AJ. The offensive production we'd lose could be offset by Beckham or Quentin meeting expectations. Really AJ was all sorts of bad this year.

DickAllen72
10-03-2010, 05:32 PM
I know Flowers had a tough year, but its hard to imagine him being worse than AJ. The offensive production we'd lose could be offset by Beckham or Quentin meeting expectations. Really AJ was all sorts of bad this year.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine how a guy who hit .220 in AAA with a ton of strikeouts against AAA pitching could do any worse than AJ who hit .270 in his worst year and finished up the year very strong.

TheOldRoman
10-03-2010, 05:36 PM
I simply disagree with most of this. This reminds me of how our last ''best player'' Frank Thomas got ripped for his leadership(or lack thereof). When the team does not win the division, why is it the best player's fault? PK has been a rock thru the last decade.
Who is the ideal leader in the clubhouse? Jeter? He is a lot like PK...no steroids,no screaming in the clubhouse, no pointing fingers at teammates or manager, always there for the media,face of the franchise....oh yea, btw,he can play on the field. And he had a lot of teammates who can play on the field.First off, I am not condemning Konerko for his lack of leadership. He is the captain, but as I said, he personality isn't that he will get in guys' faces. I have no problem with that, but he has controlled the entire tone of the clubhouse for the last several years, at least since 2006.

I don't know whether or not Jeter is a vocal leader in the clubhouse, but I haven't heard of the Yankees' clubhouse having a bad atmosphere. It is clear, based on the comments from players, that the Sox clubhouse does have one at times.

I cannot believe that you cite Nick Swisher,Getz and Orlando Cabrera as somehow wronged by the King of the Clubhouse. Swisher and Cabrera clashed with Ozzie. And that is a positive? Yea, we should have kept Swisher and traded PK to NY.I cited Cabrera and noted that he is a tool to begin with, but I don't see anything faulty about what he said. He had played with many franchises, and he said he never saw a team be so defeated before they ever took the field. He said the clubhouse was like a morgue the last several weeks of the season, as if the team was waiting to lose and knew they couldn't beat the Twins. I have said many times that I am glad we got rid of Swisher and Cabrera, but they did bring some things to light. As Rongey implied on the radio a few times, Konerko was against Swisher from the beginning. He gave a quote where Paul incredulously said at the beginning of the season (when everything was fine and good and Swisher was liked) "Nick is an interesting character" or something along those lines, and basically let it be known Swisher didn't fit in. We know Swisher is crazy (and a douche), but how come he hasn't had problems in the Yankees' clubhouse? Why hasn't he been run out of town in New York? And the point of Getz is a legitimate one. Getz said, "I think the young players bring a lot of life to the team," and he was, from all accounts, taken to task by the vets and made an outsider because of it.

PK is not going out at trading deadline and screaming that Kenny needs to dump the no-talent teammates around him like some dbs out there....hammer him for that?I wouldn't expect any player to come out and say, for example, "Kotsay blows, we need to trade for a real DH." However, it came out in 2006 that Kenny had a conversation with Konerko, Dye and Thome about what to do at the trading deadline, and Konerko was vehemently against adding any big players to the team because he liked how the team was. That isn't to say he is responsible for KW trading or not trading for certain players. Paul was also pretty vocal before this trade deadline about "these are the guys we broke camp with," and how he felt the team was more than good enough to win the division. It is speculation on my part, but I think Konerko was more worried about them not fitting in within the clubhouse than anything else.

I guess it is just the old saying, familiarity breeds contempt. Tired of falling short of the Twins so lets lop heads,starting with the best player. You would have really enjoyed this club this year without PK in the lineup,I am sure. The clubhouse atmosphere would be transformed merely by the absence of the King. On field, we would have been in last place but who cares about on-field nonsense, it is that losing mentality in the clubhouse that kept them behind the twins. Same crap we heard about Frank....hes the problem,not the solution. Not buying.As I said before, I would like Konerko back because he is still a good player. However, if he does leave I won't shed a tear, provided the Sox fill his spot with someone competent. I am not blaming him for not producing on the field or for the team's failures, but as he talked about the team's attitude about playing the Twins, I think he is a large part of that attitude. The clubhouse was the "good old boys" network over the last five years. It was fine that Konerko didn't want to be the vocal leader, but he disliked when anyone spoke up or did things differently. There was an overwhelming negative attitude in the clubhouse. Everyone is having a great time when the balls fly out in June, but whenever the team faced adversity, they shriveled up for the most part. Why did the entire team slump for a month at a time, twice per year? Why could the Sox never beat the Twins in the second half of the season? It is something mental within the clubhouse, as all players who came from other teams eventually fell into the mold. I agree with Konerko that the clubhouse attitude needs to change, I just find it a little hypocritical of him. And to further my point, I was also for the Sox letting go of Ozzie, as I think he is also a huge part of the clubhouse mentality and the mental roadblock the Sox place on the Twins.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2010, 05:39 PM
Yeah, it's hard to imagine how a guy who hit .220 in AAA with a ton of strikeouts against AAA pitching could do any worse than AJ who hit .270 in his worst year and finished up the year very strong.

The softest .270 imaginable from a guy who is a poor defender. Is that worth the 6 million. Also who cares about the k's? Its not like he has a lot of productive ab's.

DickAllen72
10-03-2010, 05:51 PM
The softest .270 imaginable from a guy who is a poor defender. Is that worth the 6 million. Also who cares about the k's? Its not like he has a lot of productive ab's.
If AJ is a "poor defender" what is Flowers???

Actually AJ is a pretty good defensive catcher. He handles the pitching staff extremely well and is pretty good at blocking pitches in the dirt. Granted he has an average to slightly below average arm at best, but that is compounded by the inability of the Sox pitchers over the years to hold runners and deliver quickly to the plate.

This was AJ's worst year offensively in the majors. Early on people here thought it was because of his age and that he was "done." AJ disproved that notion that he was "done" with his strong finish. Every player has a bad year or two in their careers. It's more lkely AJ's problem was his contract situation weighing heavily on his mind. Every player handles those things differently.

At any rate whether you like AJ or hate him, the fact is that Tyler Flowers has shown absolutely nothing this year that says he is ready to be the starting cather on a Major League team that wants to contend. Maybe he should show that he can handle AAA pitching before he is annointed as AJ's replacement. And as for your question, "Who cares about the strikeouts?", those were against inferior AAA pitching. Major league pitchers will eat him up.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2010, 06:11 PM
If AJ is a "poor defender" what is Flowers???

Actually AJ is a pretty good defensive catcher. He handles the pitching staff extremely well and is pretty good at blocking pitches in the dirt. Granted he has an average to slightly below average arm at best, but that is compounded by the inability of the Sox pitchers over the years to hold runners and deliver quickly to the plate.

This was AJ's worst year offensively in the majors. Early on people here thought it was because of his age and that he was "done." AJ disproved that notion that he was "done" with his strong finish. Every player has a bad year or two in their careers. It's more lkely AJ's problem was his contract situation weighing heavily on his mind. Every player handles those things differently.

At any rate whether you like AJ or hate him, the fact is that Tyler Flowers has shown absolutely nothing this year that says he is ready to be the starting cather on a Major League team that wants to contend. Maybe he should show that he can handle AAA pitching before he is annointed as AJ's replacement. And as for your question, "Who cares about the strikeouts?", those were against inferior AAA pitching. Major league pitchers will eat him up.

I'm not a fan of Flowers but Aj is very expendable. He's not a good defensive catcher and his bat no longer compensates for his shortcomings. Couple that with his age and I would be fine with saving payroll to go in a different direction. Any combination of Flowers/Castro/Cheap FA would be fine with me. We're talking about a 33 year old with a sub .700 ops and no arm who makes too much.

fox23
10-03-2010, 08:32 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
KW named Dayan as heir apparent if PK doesn't come back, and was very pleased the infield is a "defensive unit with offensive capability"
59 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285236490)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
Sounds like payroll projects down fr this yr but KW said Reinsdorf has learned to build in a Ken Williams "overbudget #" for a late addition
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285467009)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/925738614/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Konerko on coming back: "I really have no opinion. I don't know what to think. Kind of exciting, kind of scary at same time."
45 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/26285548532)

This is the bull**** that I hate about the current incarnation of the Sox. If you "have the money", why don't you fill your hole in the offseason instead of finding someone at the break?

Lip Man 1
10-03-2010, 09:08 PM
Because (and this is not a slap by the way) they do not believe in extending themselves until they are sure the fans are coming out and the team has performed reasonably well in the first half to justify adding payroll / players.

That's just the way it is with them.

Lip

soltrain21
10-03-2010, 09:16 PM
Just rebuild and trade some guys if you aren't planning on resigning Konerko and are gonna lower payroll.

And I'd prefer to not see KW in charge of the rebuilding.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-03-2010, 09:53 PM
And I'd prefer to not see KW in charge of the rebuilding.I don't think the Sox will ever rebuild under KW. This isn't the kind of market where rebuilding will help. This team needs to appear to have a chance for a decent season every year, or fans wont show up. It's the sad truth.

Tragg
10-03-2010, 09:55 PM
I'm okay with Flowers (if he can handle the position defensively) and Viciedo(if he can handle 1B defensively)....provided they bring in a stud right fielder. That will give Ozzie his DH who can play outfield (Quentin).

soltrain21
10-03-2010, 11:06 PM
I don't think the Sox will ever rebuild under KW. This isn't the kind of market where rebuilding will help. This team needs to appear to have a chance for a decent season every year, or fans wont show up. It's the sad truth.

Then spend the money better. Maybe KW isn't the person to do that, either.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2010, 12:16 AM
If the Sox can land Adam Dunn, I'd be ok with parting with Paulie.Be prepared for many of the brilliant defensive plays that Alexei made this year being "E-6" if you have Dunn at first.

I know Flowers had a tough year, but its hard to imagine him being worse than AJ.Hyperbole. He could EASILY be worse than AJ.

I'm not a fan of Flowers but Aj is very expendable. He's not a good defensive catcher...It's been pointed out that AJ is very good at calling pitches, and is above average at catching/blocking the ball. His only shortcoming is his arm. Your response to this was not to say how you think that's incorrect, just to repeat that "he's not good defensively." Simply saying it again doesn't make it more right than it was the first time.

TaylorStSox
10-04-2010, 10:58 AM
Be prepared for many of the brilliant defensive plays that Alexei made this year being "E-6" if you have Dunn at first.

Hyperbole. He could EASILY be worse than AJ.

It's been pointed out that AJ is very good at calling pitches, and is above average at catching/blocking the ball. His only shortcoming is his arm. Your response to this was not to say how you think that's incorrect, just to repeat that "he's not good defensively." Simply saying it again doesn't make it more right than it was the first time.

Flowers can put up a .690 ops. Thats more of an idictment of AJ than an endorsement of Flowers.
I avoided the defensive argument because its a subjective thing that we wont agree on. Pierzynski blocks balls in the dirt, but thats a job that any adequate catcher should do. Its not like we run a lot of guys that throw hard simkers and splitters. The handling of the staff is something thats coming from the dugout more than the catcher imo. I will concede that he frames pitches very well though.
I just dont think AJ has a lot of value considering his miles, a declining bat, his defense, which while I dont agree, I will call adequate at best. Its time to go in a new direction.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2010, 11:30 AM
The handling of the staff is something thats coming from the dugout more than the catcher imo. And that's not true. They've said AJ calls the pitches, not the dugout. Look how fast he puts them down when Buehrle is pitching. He's not waiting to get them from the dugout.

TaylorStSox
10-04-2010, 12:09 PM
And that's not true. They've said AJ calls the pitches, not the dugout. Look how fast he puts them down when Buehrle is pitching. He's not waiting to get them from the dugout.

Theres a lot more that goes into handling a staff than calling pitches. But again, I'll concede this point. Is it worth hanging onto a guy that will be 34 next year because he blocks balls in the dirt and calls pitches despite putting up .690 ops and making around 6 million?

Zisk77
10-04-2010, 12:31 PM
This is the bull**** that I hate about the current incarnation of the Sox. If you "have the money", why don't you fill your hole in the offseason instead of finding someone at the break?

Because sometimes they thought they filled a hole but it did not work out that way so they have to "refill it" Teahen at 3b and Peavey for # 1 starter for instance.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2010, 03:06 PM
Is it worth hanging onto a guy that will be 34 next year because he blocks balls in the dirt and calls pitches despite putting up .690 ops and making around 6 million?It is until they come up with a better alternative than "Flowers can't be any worse."

DickAllen72
10-04-2010, 05:34 PM
One more point about AJ is the man is a workhorse. He takes a beating back there but continues to start day in and day out. In fact, the only time AJ ever gave the Sox any "trouble" was when he thought his playing time was going to be curtailed too much by Toby Hall.

AJ may be at the point where he's going to have to start getting a few more days off than he's been used to, but it certainly is an asset to have a starting catcher who can be depended upon to go out there almost everyday.

I think AJ would be missed a lot more than some people who only look at OPS think. And remember, this was AJ's worst year ever. No reason to think he won't get back to his previous offensive production which is pretty good for a catcher. Also, he's a LH bat which is a plus for the Sox.

ghostface36
10-04-2010, 05:40 PM
so are we bringing back paulie or no?

DickAllen72
10-04-2010, 05:41 PM
so are we bringing back paulie or no?
Maybe.

Taliesinrk
10-04-2010, 06:32 PM
One more point about AJ is the man is a workhorse. He takes a beating back there but continues to start day in and day out. In fact, the only time AJ ever gave the Sox any "trouble" was when he thought his playing time was going to be curtailed too much by Toby Hall.

AJ may be at the point where he's going to have to start getting a few more days off than he's been used to, but it certainly is an asset to have a starting catcher who can be depended upon to go out there almost everyday.

I think AJ would be missed a lot more than some people who only look at OPS think. And remember, this was AJ's worst year ever. No reason to think he won't get back to his previous offensive production which is pretty good for a catcher. Also, he's a LH bat which is a plus for the Sox.

:thumbsup: