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DumpJerry
09-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Something about this kid reminds me of Joe Crede when he was a September callup. Crede made it difficult to consider him for another full season at Charlotte. Morel has been flashing some serious leather and his bat, in limited appearances, has looked pretty good.

If Morel is the real deal, then hopefully Kenny can find someone who will take Teahen off our hands and Morel can be the regular Third Bagger with Omar giving him a break.

Huisj
09-19-2010, 12:30 AM
Something about this kid reminds me of Joe Crede when he was a September callup. Crede made it difficult to consider him for another full season at Charlotte. Morel has been flashing some serious leather and his bat, in limited appearances, has looked pretty good.

If Morel is the real deal, then hopefully Kenny can find someone who will take Teahen off our hands and Morel can be the regular Third Bagger with Omar giving him a break.

I kind of think if he plays steady defense at third and can hit .260 with some doubles, he needs to play. Unless they've got some other big plans of bringing in someone established from outside, he seems like the best option. Good defense on that corner is a big deal.

WhiteSox5187
09-19-2010, 12:43 AM
I kind of think if he plays steady defense at third and can hit .260 with some doubles, he needs to play. Unless they've got some other big plans of bringing in someone established from outside, he seems like the best option. Good defense on that corner is a big deal.

I'd honestly settle for something in the .240s with solid defense, and he reminds me a bit of Crede too.

BadBobbyJenks
09-19-2010, 12:46 AM
His glove is real, that should be good enough.

I lol'ed when Ozzie danced around questions of whether or not he will play regularly down the stretch. "Well let's see how he swings the bat" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

cards press box
09-19-2010, 01:03 AM
If Morel is the real deal, then hopefully Kenny can find someone who will take Teahen off our hands and Morel can be the regular Third Bagger with Omar giving him a break.

People often throw out possible Sox-Cub trades, many of which make no sense to me. So, with some trepidation, I'm going to throw one out -- a change of scenery/my bad contract for your bad contract kind of deal:

Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink for Kouske Fukodome.

The financial obligations for both sides of this deal are pretty close. Teahen would give the Cubs options at 3B, 1B and RF and give them an out if they decide not to move Tyler Colvin to 1B. Linebrink is bad but is a veteran and perhaps with a change of scenery, he could help the Cubs pen.

Fukodome has been OK this year (in 395 plate appearances, he has 7 HR, 59 RBI, a .273 BA and a .380 OBP) but nowhere near what the Cubs thought he was going to be (see Matsui, Hideki). Fukodome is basically Mark Teahen with better outfield defense and better OBP. He has been a disappointment on the North Side and, unless he is dealt, he will take away at bats that should go to Colvin. Fukodome makes sense on the Sox for a year, as he could bat second in the lineup in place of Vizquel who would only spell Morel occasionally. What's more, Fukodome is a good right fielder and would give the Sox the option to explore dealing Carlos Quentin.

If San Diego, for example, decides that they cannot re-sign Adrian Gonzalez, would a Quentin for Gonzalez deal make sense for San Diego. In other words, would they give up the better and more established player for the local kid who has upside and who is more affordable than Gonzalez.

doublem23
09-19-2010, 01:12 AM
His glove is real, that should be good enough.

I lol'ed when Ozzie danced around questions of whether or not he will play regularly down the stretch. "Well let's see how he swings the bat" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

We've already got enough defense in this lineup at the DH, we need someone at 3rd who can hit, damn it!

WhiteSox5187
09-19-2010, 02:47 AM
People often throw out possible Sox-Cub trades, many of which make no sense to me. So, with some trepidation, I'm going to throw one out -- a change of scenery/my bad contract for your bad contract kind of deal:

Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink for Kouske Fukodome.

The financial obligations for both sides of this deal are pretty close. Teahen would give the Cubs options at 3B, 1B and RF and give them an out if they decide not to move Tyler Colvin to 1B. Linebrink is bad but is a veteran and perhaps with a change of scenery, he could help the Cubs pen.

Fukodome has been OK this year (in 395 plate appearances, he has 7 HR, 59 RBI, a .273 BA and a .380 OBP) but nowhere near what the Cubs thought he was going to be (see Matsui, Hideki). Fukodome is basically Mark Teahen with better outfield defense and better OBP. He has been a disappointment on the North Side and, unless he is dealt, he will take away at bats that should go to Colvin. Fukodome makes sense on the Sox for a year, as he could bat second in the lineup in place of Vizquel who would only spell Morel occasionally. What's more, Fukodome is a good right fielder and would give the Sox the option to explore dealing Carlos Quentin.

If San Diego, for example, decides that they cannot re-sign Adrian Gonzalez, would a Quentin for Gonzalez deal make sense for San Diego. In other words, would they give up the better and more established player for the local kid who has upside and who is more affordable than Gonzalez.

There is no way that San Diego does Gonzalez for Quentin. I'm not sure what Quentin's trade value is, but I would imagine it is fairly small.

soxfanreggie
09-19-2010, 06:09 AM
Part of what we need at 3rd depends on what we do with PK and what we do at DH. If we keep PK and then sign a DH who can hit, Morel could be a great option at 3rd. He might still be no matter what we do at those positions. No matter what happens, it's exciting to have someone like Brent in the fold for the future.

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 09:43 AM
If San Diego, for example, decides that they cannot re-sign Adrian Gonzalez, would a Quentin for Gonzalez deal make sense for San Diego. In other words, would they give up the better and more established player for the local kid who has upside and who is more affordable than Gonzalez.
:?:

LITTLE NELL
09-19-2010, 09:44 AM
I think Morel is our new guy at 3B.
Eventually he will probably hit close to .300 with 20 HRs and 80 RBIs and give us great D.

soltrain21
09-19-2010, 09:45 AM
People often throw out possible Sox-Cub trades, many of which make no sense to me. So, with some trepidation, I'm going to throw one out -- a change of scenery/my bad contract for your bad contract kind of deal:

Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink for Kouske Fukodome.

The financial obligations for both sides of this deal are pretty close. Teahen would give the Cubs options at 3B, 1B and RF and give them an out if they decide not to move Tyler Colvin to 1B. Linebrink is bad but is a veteran and perhaps with a change of scenery, he could help the Cubs pen.

Fukodome has been OK this year (in 395 plate appearances, he has 7 HR, 59 RBI, a .273 BA and a .380 OBP) but nowhere near what the Cubs thought he was going to be (see Matsui, Hideki). Fukodome is basically Mark Teahen with better outfield defense and better OBP. He has been a disappointment on the North Side and, unless he is dealt, he will take away at bats that should go to Colvin. Fukodome makes sense on the Sox for a year, as he could bat second in the lineup in place of Vizquel who would only spell Morel occasionally. What's more, Fukodome is a good right fielder and would give the Sox the option to explore dealing Carlos Quentin.

If San Diego, for example, decides that they cannot re-sign Adrian Gonzalez, would a Quentin for Gonzalez deal make sense for San Diego. In other words, would they give up the better and more established player for the local kid who has upside and who is more affordable than Gonzalez.

...Wut?

You can tell offseason is almost upon us! Time to talk about how we can get anybody for Quentin and Harrell!

Tragg
09-19-2010, 10:15 AM
...Wut?

You can tell offseason is almost upon us! Time to talk about how we can get anybody for Quentin and Harrell!

We traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.
Some times, people are actually willing to take less talent to cut salary: like us.

SCCWS
09-19-2010, 10:26 AM
I think Morel is our new guy at 3B.
Eventually he will probably hit close to .300 with 20 HRs and 80 RBIs and give us great D.

You are right he is a "new guy". Unless he gets moving on steroids though, the 20 HRS may be tough. If you combined his college and minor league totals he wouldn't have 20 hrs. He is Chris Getz power w a better glove.

cards press box
09-19-2010, 12:05 PM
We traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.
Some times, people are actually willing to take less talent to cut salary: like us.

Exactly right. In fact, I was actually thinking of the finanical aspect of the Carlos Lee deal to Milwaukee when I threw out the Carlos Quentin for Adrian Gonzalez proposal. Can San Diego afford to re-sign Gonzalez, particularly if they miss the playoffs altogether? Looking at the standings in the NL this morning, both SF and Colorado could pass SD and Atlanta is the favorite to win the wild card. I'm sure that SD doesn't want to trade Gonzalez but they may feel that have no choice. Given the economics, the more affordable Carlos Quentin might be the most cost effective return they can get for one year of Gonzalez prior to free agency.

:?:

See above.

DirtySox
09-19-2010, 12:08 PM
You are right he is a "new guy". Unless he gets moving on steroids though, the 20 HRS may be tough. If you combined his college and minor league totals he wouldn't have 20 hrs. He is Chris Getz power w a better glove.

Morel has more power than Getz. I think a decent number of doubles and 10 - 15 HR is very attainable for him.

kjhanson
09-19-2010, 12:32 PM
You are right he is a "new guy". Unless he gets moving on steroids though, the 20 HRS may be tough. If you combined his college and minor league totals he wouldn't have 20 hrs. He is Chris Getz power w a better glove.

Your evaluation ignorance continues to bleed among the brightest. Not only did he have 16 HRs last year (in 481 ABs), he had a total of 50 XBHs. This year in 490 minor league at-bats he had 52 XBHs.

There are dozens of examples of players who hit a lot of doubles in the minors and eventually turn those into home runs at the major league level. Since Adrian Gonzalez is frequently brought up on these forums, have a look:

In six league seasons (getting his first cup of coffee at 23 like Morel) he (Adrian) had one HR every 36 ABs. Brent was one every 38. Gonzalez had one double every 17 ABs though. Brent is one every 16. Morel also had a higher SLG% than Adrian did.

I don't expect Brent to slug 40 HRs like Adrian Gonzalez, but it's not out of this world that he can hit 25 HRs/season. If he doesn't and only hits 15, I'll take 35 or 40 doubles, no problem.

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 02:00 PM
Exactly right. In fact, I was actually thinking of the finanical aspect of the Carlos Lee deal to Milwaukee when I threw out the Carlos Quentin for Adrian Gonzalez proposal. Can San Diego afford to re-sign Gonzalez, particularly if they miss the playoffs altogether? Looking at the standings in the NL this morning, both SF and Colorado could pass SD and Atlanta is the favorite to win the wild card. I'm sure that SD doesn't want to trade Gonzalez but they may feel that have no choice. Given the economics, the more affordable Carlos Quentin might be the most cost effective return they can get for one year of Gonzalez prior to free agency.



See above.
If they put Adrian Gonzalez on the market, Carlos Quentin would be the worst offer they receive.

SCCWS
09-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Your evaluation ignorance continues to bleed among the brightest. Not only did he have 16 HRs last year (in 481 ABs), he had a total of 50 XBHs. This year in 490 minor league at-bats he had 52 XBHs.

There are dozens of examples of players who hit a lot of doubles in the minors and eventually turn those into home runs at the major league level. Since Adrian Gonzalez is frequently brought up on these forums, have a look:

In six league seasons (getting his first cup of coffee at 23 like Morel) he (Adrian) had one HR every 36 ABs. Brent was one every 38. Gonzalez had one double every 17 ABs though. Brent is one every 16. Morel also had a higher SLG% than Adrian did.

I don't expect Brent to slug 40 HRs like Adrian Gonzalez, but it's not out of this world that he can hit 25 HRs/season. If he doesn't and only hits 15, I'll take 35 or 40 doubles, no problem.

The poster said Morel will be good for 20 HRS in majors. Morel will be a solid hitter hopefully, maybe .275 at this level. But to expect 20 HRS????Why would you compare him to a guy like AG who played in a different minor league park? Moel hit 8--as you posted 1 in 38 in Charlotte. Getz hit 11 at Charlotte 1 in 40. Danny Richar( hopefully you remember the pop in his bat) hit 1 in 33 the same year as Getz. Maybe the wind was blowing in this year on Morel.

LITTLE NELL
09-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Scouting report on Morel:

http://futuresox.com/frontpage/2009/08/05/brent-morel/

Says he will hit for average power, so is 20 HRs average power?

KMcMahon817
09-19-2010, 05:38 PM
Morel has impressed me in his limited playing time so far. I wouldn't be against him getting the nod at 3B next year, but if you do that, you must sign a big bat FA to play RF. We can't start another season with 2 holes in the lineup.

Hitmen77
09-19-2010, 05:50 PM
We simply do not have enough payroll available to fill all of the holes in our lineup with pricey veterans. The Sox need to be able to plug in someone like Morel in their lineup to be able to have enough money left over to fill the other holes in our roster. I at age 44, I don't know if we can count on Vizquel have another good year left in him. Maybe the plan could be to bring him back as a backup to Morel at 3B in case Brent falters.

If Morel can be even modestly successful, I'd be happy with an IF of Morel, Ramirez, Beckham, and a returning Konerko.

Morel has impressed me in his limited playing time so far. I wouldn't be against him getting the nod at 3B next year, but if you do that, you must sign a big bat FA to play RF. We can't start another season with 2 holes in the lineup.

Agreed. But the Sox have a lot of question marks this offseason. Our 1B and C are free agents. Quentin is up for arbitration again but seems to be unable to repeat the magic of 2008 - plus if he does come back, it's time to move him to DH because of the lousy defense and frequent injuries.

SCCWS
09-19-2010, 05:56 PM
Scouting report on Morel:

http://futuresox.com/frontpage/2009/08/05/brent-morel/

Says he will hit for average power, so is 20 HRs average power?

Not sure but they compare him to Joe Randa who averaged 10 hr and hit .280 per year over his career. Again, 2nd base stats especially in AL.

Daver
09-19-2010, 05:59 PM
Not sure but they compare him to Joe Randa who averaged 10 hr and hit .280 per year over his career. Again, 2nd base stats especially in AL.

This discussion is not about fantasy baseball, so applying fantasy logic doesn't really serve much of a purpose.

VMSNS
09-19-2010, 06:24 PM
If Morel's bat anywhere near decent, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be the starting 3B next season. It's time this team starts using more in-house options and improves their farm system. We're better off spending any money we have a a RF that can actually play defense, as well as another decent stick to add to the DH rotation (if they still plan on a DH rotation again).

Haven't seen Brent play much yet because I haven't had the time to watch the games lately, but he turned a very nice double-play the other night and he seems to have a good arm. Hopefully, his defense is as good as advertised.

LITTLE NELL
09-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Not sure but they compare him to Joe Randa who averaged 10 hr and hit .280 per year over his career. Again, 2nd base stats especially in AL.

Report said he should hit with more power than Randa.

Tragg
09-19-2010, 06:35 PM
Not sure but they compare him to Joe Randa
Then we have ourselves and exceedingly average ballplayer. Hopefully, he's better than that.

kjhanson
09-19-2010, 07:27 PM
The poster said Morel will be good for 20 HRS in majors. Morel will be a solid hitter hopefully, maybe .275 at this level. But to expect 20 HRS????Why would you compare him to a guy like AG who played in a different minor league park? Moel hit 8--as you posted 1 in 38 in Charlotte. Getz hit 11 at Charlotte 1 in 40. Danny Richar( hopefully you remember the pop in his bat) hit 1 in 33 the same year as Getz. Maybe the wind was blowing in this year on Morel.

OK, and he hit 16 in 481 at-bats at Winston Salem. Minor league players play in multiple ballparks. What's your convoluted point this time?

And once again you completely disregard doubles as a predictor of major league power or even as a measure of power.

By the way, Richar hit 6 HRs in 187 at-bats for us. Annualized, that's exactly 20 HRs for a season.

cards press box
09-19-2010, 07:51 PM
If they put Adrian Gonzalez on the market, Carlos Quentin would be the worst offer they receive.

That may or may not be right. I really have no idea. I'll say this: when the Twins traded Johan Santana a few years ago for financial reasons, they got Carlos Gomez and some pitchers that didn't pan out. I don't care how uneven a year Carlos Quentin has had in 2010. I would take him over Carlos Gomez in a millisecond.

So, what makes you think the haul for Adrian Gonzalez entering his free agent year would be any more than what the Twins got for Santana entering his free agent year?

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 08:14 PM
That may or may not be right. I really have no idea. I'll say this: when the Twins traded Johan Santana a few years ago for financial reasons, they got Carlos Gomez and some pitchers that didn't pan out. I don't care how uneven a year Carlos Quentin has had in 2010. I would take him over Carlos Gomez in a millisecond.

So, what makes you think the haul for Adrian Gonzalez entering his free agent year would be any more than what the Twins got for Santana entering his free agent year?
The fact that Carlos Gomez was a hot prospect, the pitchers that didn't pan out were considered potential mid-rotation starters, and most of them had no major league service time.

Carlos Quentin, on the other hand, will hit free agency sooner than any of them, and he is a china doll. Staying healthy is a skill Carlos does not have.

Also, you cannot feasibly say that since X was a bad move, Y could happen. Jed Hoyer is, generally speaking, a pretty smart guy. He understands that Carlos Quentin is a risky, risky guy who is not worth his franchise player.

KMcMahon817
09-19-2010, 08:16 PM
Agreed. But the Sox have a lot of question marks this offseason. Our 1B and C are free agents. Quentin is up for arbitration again but seems to be unable to repeat the magic of 2008 - plus if he does come back, it's time to move him to DH because of the lousy defense and frequent injuries.

Right. I am also assuming that the SOX will bring Konerko and AJ back. There are simply no better options at catcher in the FA pool besides maybe John Buck. But he has been very meh for most of his career.

I think a high profile right fielder is a necessity. Move Quentin to DH if he is still around.

Milw
09-19-2010, 08:44 PM
We traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.
Some times, people are actually willing to take less talent to cut salary: like us.
Not sure if you remember what happened in 2005, but we don't go to the playoffs that season with Carlos Lee as our left fielder. That trade may or may not have been financially motivated, but even if it was, we got the better end of it.

SCCWS
09-19-2010, 08:55 PM
OK, and he hit 16 in 481 at-bats at Winston Salem. Minor league players play in multiple ballparks. What's your convoluted point this time?

And once again you completely disregard doubles as a predictor of major league power or even as a measure of power.

By the way, Richar hit 6 HRs in 187 at-bats for us. Annualized, that's exactly 20 HRs for a season.

I will try again and explain it so hopefully you will understand. Projecting that Morel will hit 20 HRS next year is very unrealistic. It is like the numerous posters who going into this season projected Beckham hitting 25-30 HRs this season. Projecting a ML player like Konerko, Rios, TCQ etc hitting HRS based on their history is legit. Projecting young players with limited ML plate appearance is a crap shoot.

The offense needs to be improved next year. Projecting Morel as a guy who will add 20 HR to the lineup is a stretch.

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 08:56 PM
I will try again and explain it so hopefully you will understand. Projecting that Morel will hit 20 HRS next year is very unrealistic. It is like the numerous posters who going into this season projected Beckham hitting 25-30 HRs this season. Projecting a ML player like Konerko, Rios, TCQ etc hitting HRS based on their history is legit. Projecting young players with limited ML plate appearance is a crap shoot.

The offense needs to be improved next year. Projecting Morel as a guy who will add 20 HR to the lineup is a stretch.
Improve it via the DH. Improve 3B via the organization. Simple simple.

Daver
09-19-2010, 09:13 PM
I will try again and explain it so hopefully you will understand. Projecting that Morel will hit 20 HRS next year is very unrealistic. It is like the numerous posters who going into this season projected Beckham hitting 25-30 HRs this season. Projecting a ML player like Konerko, Rios, TCQ etc hitting HRS based on their history is legit. Projecting young players with limited ML plate appearance is a crap shoot.

The offense needs to be improved next year. Projecting Morel as a guy who will add 20 HR to the lineup is a stretch.

Projecting anything is pure foolishness, if it worked Miss Cleo would be on retainer for every MLB team.

Tragg
09-19-2010, 10:30 PM
Not sure if you remember what happened in 2005, but we don't go to the playoffs that season with Carlos Lee as our left fielder. That trade may or may not have been financially motivated, but even if it was, we got the better end of it.
I get that. I didn't say it was a bad trade. I said we took less in talent, which we did.
What the trade did was free up money so that we would sign Iguchi and AJ.

cards press box
09-20-2010, 02:13 AM
The fact that Carlos Gomez was a hot prospect, the pitchers that didn't pan out were considered potential mid-rotation starters, and most of them had no major league service time.

Carlos Quentin, on the other hand, will hit free agency sooner than any of them, and he is a china doll. Staying healthy is a skill Carlos does not have.

Also, you cannot feasibly say that since X was a bad move, Y could happen. Jed Hoyer is, generally speaking, a pretty smart guy. He understands that Carlos Quentin is a risky, risky guy who is not worth his franchise player.

I don't think that Quentin has been on the DL this year and, what's more, his injury in 2008 was pure fluke and he's not the first guy to battle through planters fasciitis. The chronic injury label is, I think, a bum rap.

Having said that, I have no idea what San Diego would realistically hope to get if they decide to deal Adrian Gonzalez the year prior to free agency. I know this: if the Padres want to stay anywhere near contention in 2011, they have to do better than deal Gonzalez for a package of a possible leadoff man (Gomez) and some possible mid-rotation starters down the line. In other words, they would need someone to give them offensive punch now. That could be Quentin or someone else via trade or free agency, like Jayson Werth. Given the Padres' tight budget, I don't expect it to be a free agent.

One more thing: I have absolutely no problem with the Sox holding onto Quentin. In fact, if I were KW, I don't know ifI would trade Quentin for a guy who could walk after one year. Look at the case for Quentin: he just turned 28 and is three years away from free agency. He was awfully close to being the AL MVP just two seasons ago. He is still a work in progress and, for that reason, you seem to think he is a total bust. I won't make such a rush to judgment.

I think that Quentin has some good power years ahead of him and if I were Jed Hoyer, I would certainly be interested in Quentin, given the fact that: (a) he is still a 25 HR 90 RBI man, even in a year when he hit. 236, (b) he is three years away from free agency and (c) he is from San Diego and might generate interest from local fans. From San Diego's point of view, I think the exchange makes a lot more sense economically and baseball wise than you do. From the Sox' point of view, I don't make the deal unless I have a realistic contingent plan in the event that Gonzalez walks after 2011.

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2010, 08:34 AM
I don't think that Quentin has been on the DL this year and, what's more, his injury in 2008 was pure fluke and he's not the first guy to battle through planters fasciitis. The chronic injury label is, I think, a bum rap.

Having said that, I have no idea what San Diego would realistically hope to get if they decide to deal Adrian Gonzalez the year prior to free agency. I know this: if the Padres want to stay anywhere near contention in 2011, they have to do better than deal Gonzalez for a package of a possible leadoff man (Gomez) and some possible mid-rotation starters down the line. In other words, they would need someone to give them offensive punch now. That could be Quentin or someone else via trade or free agency, like Jayson Werth. Given the Padres' tight budget, I don't expect it to be a free agent.

One more thing: I have absolutely no problem with the Sox holding onto Quentin. In fact, if I were KW, I don't know ifI would trade Quentin for a guy who could walk after one year. Look at the case for Quentin: he just turned 28 and is three years away from free agency. He was awfully close to being the AL MVP just two seasons ago. He is still a work in progress and, for that reason, you seem to think he is a total bust. I won't make such a rush to judgment.

I think that Quentin has some good power years ahead of him and if I were Jed Hoyer, I would certainly be interested in Quentin, given the fact that: (a) he is still a 25 HR 90 RBI man, even in a year when he hit. 236, (b) he is three years away from free agency and (c) he is from San Diego and might generate interest from local fans. From San Diego's point of view, I think the exchange makes a lot more sense economically and baseball wise than you do. From the Sox' point of view, I don't make the deal unless I have a realistic contingent plan in the event that Gonzalez walks after 2011.
1. San Diego would probably rather hold onto the all-world hitter and let him walk after 2011 and collect draft picks. I think they would rather have two picks in the top fifty than get a guy like Quentin.
2. I don't think Carlos is a bust. A fraction of guys succeed at the major league level, and a smaller sliver succeed in the way he did in 2008. The problem is: he can't stay healthy or play defense. How the hell would that work out in the NL?
3. You are overrating the effect of "hometown" guys. I doubt the fine folks of San Diego are going to head to the game because Carlos is from the area. You could argue that Gonzalez would generate more interest, as he's the best Mexican-American player in the game, and San Diego has a significant Mexican-American population. That is a far more convincing argument.
4. You seriously would not make that deal?
5. Stop bringing up Carlos Gomez. He is completely irrelevant.
6. And those HR/RBI stats you cite would go down the ****ter playing in Petco.

Listen -- I don't think there's a chance in hell that anyone in baseball would even propose this. Not a chance in hell.

cards press box
09-20-2010, 09:15 AM
1. San Diego would probably rather hold onto the all-world hitter and let him walk after 2011 and collect draft picks. I think they would rather have two picks in the top fifty than get a guy like Quentin.

Holding onto Gonzalez for 2011, letting him walk and taking the draft picks is one way to go and, if SD wants to compete next year, it makes a lot more sense than dealing him for players who are several years away. My point is that Quentin would help, albeit not as much as Gonzalez, in 2011-2013 and would fit better into SD's budget.

I don't think Carlos is a bust. A fraction of guys succeed at the major league level, and a smaller sliver succeed in the way he did in 2008. The problem is: he can't stay healthy or play defense. How the hell would that work out in the NL?

I don't agree with the injury rap; he has stayed healthy this year. As for his defense, he has been better in RF than LF and he has a good arm. He is, however, probably the most average defender at his position that the Sox have.

Here is the larger point: Carlos is only 28 and we're just not that far away from 2008. He has shown flashes of brilliance but was just inconsistent this year. It's hard to know when a player will put everything together. Carlos did it in 2008; Delmon Young did it this year. I still suspect that Quentin's best years may lie ahead.

You seriously would not make that deal?


I probably would but I'm not sure. The Sox would have a great infield: Morel, A. Ramirez, Beckham and Gonzalez but would have to bring in somebody to play RF (I would hope that they wouldn't just run Teahen out there) and would need some plan long term regarding Gonzalez. If they re-sign Paul Konerko, too, they would have a DH and someone to play 1B if they didn't keep Gonzalez.

I don't think there's a chance in hell that anyone in baseball would even propose this. Not a chance in hell.

That's your opinion. I disagree. Economic concerns make this potential move more viable than you think.

tstrike2000
09-20-2010, 11:16 AM
If Morel is the real deal, then hopefully Kenny can find someone who will take Teahen off our hands and Morel can be the regular Third Bagger with Omar giving him a break.

:praying:

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2010, 02:33 PM
Holding onto Gonzalez for 2011, letting him walk and taking the draft picks is one way to go and, if SD wants to compete next year, it makes a lot more sense than dealing him for players who are several years away. My point is that Quentin would help, albeit not as much as Gonzalez, in 2011-2013 and would fit better into SD's budget.

If your argument for Gonzalez for Quentin is one based in economics, it's better than one based in personnel. Still, it stinks.

I don't agree with the injury rap; he has stayed healthy this year. As for his defense, he has been better in RF than LF and he has a good arm. He is, however, probably the most average defender at his position that the Sox have.
Jermaine Dye out there, he is not. However, he is not average as a right fielder. As far his injury history, agree to disagree. It didn't begin in 2008, and it didn't end with PF.

Here is the larger point: Carlos is only 28 and we're just not that far away from 2008. He has shown flashes of brilliance but was just inconsistent this year. It's hard to know when a player will put everything together. Carlos did it in 2008; Delmon Young did it this year. I still suspect that Quentin's best years may lie ahead.
He was not inconsistent. He was consistently bad for four months, and strung together a good streak. Even in that streak, it was largely slugging-driven, something that was not present in any other month -- save perhaps April.

That's your opinion. I disagree. Economic concerns make this potential move more viable than you think.
What makes you think there isn't a more economically feasible offer coming from, say, the Red Sox? You really don't think they could put together a better package (and by better, I mean 10000x better) than one that consists of Carlos Quentin?

russ99
09-20-2010, 02:44 PM
Remember, we had a guy a few years ago that was supposed to anchor 3B for years to come and hit lots of homers, and that's Josh Fields.

If Morel wins the job out of spring training and shows he can hit big league pitching, then I'll back him at 3B all the way.

Until then, I can't pencil him into anything except another year in Charlotte.

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2010, 02:50 PM
Remember, we had a guy a few years ago that was supposed to anchor 3B for years to come and hit lots of homers, and that's Josh Fields.

If Morel wins the job out of spring training and shows he can hit big league pitching, then I'll back him at 3B all the way.

Until then, I can't pencil him into anything except another year in Charlotte.
Good organizations have patience. Good organizations know that spring training at-bats will tell you absolutely nothing. Good organizations know that there is a learning curve in the first few hundred at-bats for most all major leaguers. Good organizations will make a concerted effort to surround a young player (who may struggle) with a suitable offense, so he doesn't become the scape-goat for a team's offensive struggles -- adding to an array of pressures and anxieties. (Especially when that player is one whose greatest asset is his glove.) Good organizations will not even consider Josh Fields' development when thinking about what to do with Brent Morel; that would be stupid.

The organization you pine for is one I want nothing to do with.

hawkjt
09-20-2010, 02:52 PM
I like Morel at 3rd next year. Defense wins.

Next years lineup:

Pierre- lf
Alexei- SS
Rios- CF
PK- 1b
Quentin/Teahen-DH
AJ- C
Newly acquired right fielder
Beckham-2b
Morel-3b

Keep Omar,Lillibridge for utility.
Keep Andruw for 4th outfielder.
Keep Castro for backup catcher.

Ok, that is 14 guys,one too many...so either Lillibridge,Andruw or Omar must go.

Find a new arm for the bullpen,and keep the rotation intact,and the Sox will contend.

CWSpalehoseCWS
09-20-2010, 03:16 PM
I really want Morel to be the starter at 3B next year. He can field and that's all I really care about after watching the Viciedo experiment and Teahen butcher things in the field.

WhiteSox5187
09-20-2010, 03:48 PM
Remember, we had a guy a few years ago that was supposed to anchor 3B for years to come and hit lots of homers, and that's Josh Fields.

If Morel wins the job out of spring training and shows he can hit big league pitching, then I'll back him at 3B all the way.

Until then, I can't pencil him into anything except another year in Charlotte.

Josh Fields was never a third baseman as far as I'm concerned, he was a home run hitter who happened to stand near third base when on defense in my book.

cards press box
09-20-2010, 07:09 PM
If your argument for Gonzalez for Quentin is one based in economics, it's better than one based in personnel. Still, it stinks.

What makes you think there isn't a more economically feasible offer coming from, say, the Red Sox? You really don't think they could put together a better package (and by better, I mean 10000x better) than one that consists of Carlos Quentin?

Of course it is based on economics. Neither San Diego nor any other team would actively look to trade an Adrian Gonzalez mid-career if not for economic duress. You think the argument stinks, fine, it's a free country. Do the Red Sox have the right prospects to make a deal for Gonzalez? I have no idea but I know that they didn't last winter.

I am amused by the constant assumption that prospects (unknown and often identified) are so much more valuable than players like Quentin who are already in the big leagues. There is, I think, a human tendency to always think that the grass on the other side is always greener. In reality, however, it ususally isn't.

If the Padres trade Gonzalez, we'll see if they do better than Carlos Quentin. You obviously don't think so but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

gobears1987
09-20-2010, 08:08 PM
I'd honestly settle for something in the .240s with solid defense, and he reminds me a bit of Crede too.
Crede hit .239 in 2004 and most of us were pretty happy with him tanks to his defense. Well that and the fact he was clutch. His offensive breakout in 2006 was just gravy. Too bad his back went out the next season and forced us to use Josh Fields. :puking:

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2010, 08:33 PM
Of course it is based on economics. Neither San Diego nor any other team would actively look to trade an Adrian Gonzalez mid-career if not for economic duress. You think the argument stinks, fine, it's a free country. Do the Red Sox have the right prospects to make a deal for Gonzalez? I have no idea but I know that they didn't last winter.

I am amused by the constant assumption that prospects (unknown and often identified) are so much more valuable than players like Quentin who are already in the big leagues. There is, I think, a human tendency to always think that the grass on the other side is always greener. In reality, however, it ususally isn't.

If the Padres trade Gonzalez, we'll see if they do better than Carlos Quentin. You obviously don't think so but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Tell you what, if your thought process is so plausible, then e-mail a Padres beat writer and see what his take on a move like this would be.

KMcMahon817
09-20-2010, 08:56 PM
Tell you what, if your thought process is so plausible, then e-mail a Padres beat writer and see what his take on a move like this would be.

All he is saying is that a lot of moves are made due to financial restrictions. The whole reason the Pads would trade AGon is because the won't be able to afford him after next season.

Who knows if the Pads will get a better deal than Quentin. One would think so, but who knows. The idea of finances having a big effect on a trade is not a new concept.

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2010, 09:43 PM
All he is saying is that a lot of moves are made due to financial restrictions. The whole reason the Pads would trade AGon is because the won't be able to afford him after next season.

Who knows if the Pads will get a better deal than Quentin. One would think so, but who knows. The idea of finances having a big effect on a trade is not a new concept.
No, he is saying that Quentin for Gonzalez is a reasonable proposition.

I'm well aware of baseball and economics. I'm not aware of any general manager who would consider dealing Gonzalez for such a menial package.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2010, 09:48 PM
I think the main point is that unless you are prepared to spend like the Yankees, and just fill every position through free agency, and are willing to eat bad contracts, then you have to develop some of your own players.

The Sox have invested a lot of their resources in their starting rotation, and Rios is expensive. Many people want Paulie re-signed, and he won't come cheaply.

Therefore, the Sox have to get cheap production somewhere. Brent Morel's excellent third base defense will come very cheaply next year. And what is saved by having Morel and thus not having to sign a veteran free agent 3B may allow the Sox to re-sign Konerko and/or a replacement-level 1B/DH.

I think 1B, RF and DH are bigger issues than 3B for next year. Therefore, unless the Sox are willing to boost their payroll to the $130+ million level, I want Morel starting at 3B next year.

Daver
09-20-2010, 09:57 PM
I think the main point is that unless you are prepared to spend like the Yankees, and just fill every position through free agency, and are willing to eat bad contracts, then you have to develop some of your own players.

The Sox have invested a lot of their resources in their starting rotation, and Rios is expensive. Many people want Paulie re-signed, and he won't come cheaply.

Therefore, the Sox have to get cheap production somewhere. Brent Morel's excellent third base defense will come very cheaply next year. And what is saved by having Morel and thus not having to sign a veteran free agent 3B may allow the Sox to re-sign Konerko and/or a replacement-level 1B/DH.

I think 1B, RF and DH are bigger issues than 3B for next year. Therefore, unless the Sox are willing to boost their payroll to the $130+ million level, I want Morel starting at 3B next year.

The Sox have a veteran under contract that can play third base.

TDog
09-20-2010, 10:00 PM
I really like Brent Morel. I had heard great things about his glove, and he hasn't disappointed me defensively. I also like his approach at the plate. He appears to be farther along than I thought he was.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2010, 10:03 PM
The Sox have a veteran under contract that can play third base.

If you are referring to Vizquel, I agree he should be kept as the utility infielder for 2011.

If you are referring to Beckham, who would play second base?

Surely you're not referring to Teahen, who plays third with his glove on his head.

In all seriousness, what do you think about Morel's defense? What about his hitting?

russ99
09-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Good organizations have patience. Good organizations know that spring training at-bats will tell you absolutely nothing. Good organizations know that there is a learning curve in the first few hundred at-bats for most all major leaguers. Good organizations will make a concerted effort to surround a young player (who may struggle) with a suitable offense, so he doesn't become the scape-goat for a team's offensive struggles -- adding to an array of pressures and anxieties. (Especially when that player is one whose greatest asset is his glove.) Good organizations will not even consider Josh Fields' development when thinking about what to do with Brent Morel; that would be stupid.

The organization you pine for is one I want nothing to do with.

Bad organizations rush guys to the majors. Bad organizations assume unproven rookies can step in right away. Bad organizations are swayed by a few September HRs into thinking they have a player they don't have or have yet. That goes double for Arizona Fall League HR's.

For all the clamoring for a good minor league system around here, what good could come out of assuming this guy can handle 500 plate appearances at the big league level next year?

That's the same approach that ruined Borchard and Anderson and innumerable other minor league players around the majors.

IMO if he earns a spot, he's ready. Until then, he's not, regardless of overall organizational need at the position, his plus glove, and if a majority of the fanbase hates Mark Teahen.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2010, 10:25 PM
Bad organizations rush guys to the majors. Bad organizations assume unproven rookies can step in right away. Bad organizations are swayed by a few September HRs into thinking they have a player they don't have or have yet. That goes double for Arizona Fall League HR's.

For all the clamoring for a good minor league system around here, what good could come out of assuming this guy can handle 500 plate appearances at the big league level next year?

That's the same approach that ruined Borchard and Anderson and innumerable other minor league players around the majors.

IMO if he earns a spot, he's ready. Until then, he's not, regardless of overall organizational need at the position, his plus glove, and if a majority of the fanbase hates Mark Teahen.

No one is calling for Morel to be given the starting 3B job regardless of performance.

However, the plan going into spring training should be that 3B is Morel's job to win. And if Morel can't hit, then you send him back to Charlotte and go with Vizquel.

Teahen's terrible defense automatically disqualifies him from the starting 3B job IMHO.

slavko
09-20-2010, 11:28 PM
Josh Fields was never a third baseman as far as I'm concerned, he was a home run hitter who happened to stand near third base when on defense in my book.

It was clear he would never be an acceptable MLB 3B. Teahen ditto, although I don't dislike him. He'll be easier to move than you think.

SCCWS
09-20-2010, 11:54 PM
No one is calling for Morel to be given the starting 3B job regardless of performance.

However, the plan going into spring training should be that 3B is Morel's job to win. And if Morel can't hit, then you send him back to Charlotte and go with Vizquel.

Teahen's terrible defense automatically disqualifies him from the starting 3B job IMHO.

I agree w your premise. What would qualify for Morel "to hit" in your opinion? If he can put up Teahen like numbers .250 w 10 homers and 50 RBI's. would that be good enough? Or if he was to put up those numbers, would we be better w Omar's glove and his .280--30 RBI and ability to fill #2 spot in order but no power.

WhiteSox5187
09-21-2010, 12:03 AM
Crede hit .239 in 2004 and most of us were pretty happy with him tanks to his defense. Well that and the fact he was clutch. His offensive breakout in 2006 was just gravy. Too bad his back went out the next season and forced us to use Josh Fields. :puking:

I wasn't posting on the board back then, but I recall the talk on talk radio was that Crede was going to be traded going all the way up until the deadline in '05. He had a fairly good second half as I remember. But maybe that home run against Cleveland distorts my memory.

Nelfox02
09-21-2010, 12:47 AM
I agree w your premise. What would qualify for Morel "to hit" in your opinion? If he can put up Teahen like numbers .250 w 10 homers and 50 RBI's. would that be good enough? Or if he was to put up those numbers, would we be better w Omar's glove and his .280--30 RBI and ability to fill #2 spot in order but no power.

for 2011? cant answer that until I know who my 1B and DH are....

hawkjt
09-21-2010, 02:19 AM
I wasn't posting on the board back then, but I recall the talk on talk radio was that Crede was going to be traded going all the way up until the deadline in '05. He had a fairly good second half as I remember. But maybe that home run against Cleveland distorts my memory.

We had many a battle over Crede back in 2004-05...I was a Joe defender, but he had tons of critics. He never really got consistent til he came back from the finger injury in late August,2005, and then had the greatest last 50 games including playoffs of any third baseman in modern sox history.
Then he became golden to fans. But he was hammered until then.

I pray Morel can become Crede-lite.

cards press box
09-21-2010, 03:23 AM
No, he is saying that Quentin for Gonzalez is a reasonable proposition.

Wrong, totally wrong. I'm the first to admit that San Diego would never consider making such a deal if economics were not an issue. But economics are, of course, a critical issue to asset management.

What I am saying is this: under SD's current financial circumstances -- namely, if San Diego decides they cannot afford Gonzalez and want to get something for him before he walks as a free agent -- the Padres might decide that three years of Carlos Quentin at the salary he is likely to command is the best return they can get for one guaranteed year of Adrian Gonzalez. Geez, is this argument that hard to understand?

Craig Grebeck
09-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Wrong, totally wrong. I'm the first to admit that San Diego would never consider making such a deal if economics were not an issue. But economics are, of course, a critical issue to asset management.

What I am saying is this: under SD's current financial circumstances -- namely, if San Diego decides they cannot afford Gonzalez and want to get something for him before he walks as a free agent -- the Padres might decide that three years of Carlos Quentin at the salary he is likely to command is the best return they can get for one guaranteed year of Adrian Gonzalez. Geez, is this argument that hard to understand?
Given the mind-boggling incongruity between the two, and your inability to recognize that Quentin at $5m a year in 2011 is not palatable for many teams, yes.

palehozenychicty
09-21-2010, 09:20 AM
We had many a battle over Crede back in 2004-05...I was a Joe defender, but he had tons of critics. He never really got consistent til he came back from the finger injury in late August,2005, and then had the greatest last 50 games including playoffs of any third baseman in modern sox history.
Then he became golden to fans. But he was hammered until then.

I pray Morel can become Crede-lite.

I think he can be better. Crede only had a flash of consistent hitting, and it carried the team to a title. Morel hits for doubles, and hopefully that will not be stripped at the Cell.

Harry Chappas
09-21-2010, 10:33 AM
Bad organizations rush guys to the majors. Bad organizations assume unproven rookies can step in right away. Bad organizations are swayed by a few September HRs into thinking they have a player they don't have or have yet. That goes double for Arizona Fall League HR's.

For all the clamoring for a good minor league system around here, what good could come out of assuming this guy can handle 500 plate appearances at the big league level next year?

That's the same approach that ruined Borchard and Anderson and innumerable other minor league players around the majors.

IMO if he earns a spot, he's ready. Until then, he's not, regardless of overall organizational need at the position, his plus glove, and if a majority of the fanbase hates Mark Teahen.

Nonsense. A lack of talent "ruined" Borchard and Anderson. It has nothing to do with being "rushed."

Hating Teahen has nothing at all to do with my desire to see Morel in the lineup. It's the "plus glove" that you referred to which I think is absolutely critical for our success next year. Teahen is an average hitter and with a well-below average glove.

doublem23
09-21-2010, 11:04 AM
Hating Teahen has nothing at all to do with my desire to see Morel in the lineup. It's the "plus glove" that you referred to which I think is absolutely critical for our success next year. Teahen is an average hitter and with a well-below average glove.

I would like to make sure it's on record that I do, in fact, hate Mark Teahen.

khan
09-21-2010, 02:52 PM
Affordable players, [preferably young] that are average to above-average, give a MLB team the financial flexibility to solve problems in the roster.

Guys like Alexei, Beckham, [hopefully] Morel, even Garcia, Putz, and [lamentably] Dan Hudson are crucial to this very real need. Particularly for a club like our SOX who have a ****ty minor league system.

All of these guys are performing above their contract levels.

Conversely, there are quite a few boat anchor contracts, where the player's performance does not parallel the amount of money they command. [Thinking of Linebrink, Jenks, Jackson, Buehrle, Peavey, AJ, Teahen, Quentin, and even Rios.]

These contracts lead to teams getting worse at baseball as they age. NOTE: I'm not saying that all of these players with boat anchor contracts aren't contributing and don't have a place in a MLB roster. I'm saying that their performance is not in-line with their contracts.


I for one have been a big fan of Morel for a few seasons, and I hope that he can perform to an adequate level. [So as to counterbalance some of the dumb money KW's thrown around in recent years.]

I don't know about some of the irrationally-exhuberant numbers some are hoping for Morel to produce; Everything I've read about Morel is that he's a Joe Randa-type, with an average bat but a remarkable glove.

DirtySox
09-24-2010, 10:44 PM
A nice Fangraphs piece on Morel:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-need-morel-at-3b/

slavko
09-25-2010, 12:58 AM
We have to hope Morel is an average hitter like Teahen is an average hitter. We could plug him in to 3B for a long time. But he isn't, at least yet.

Right now Morel is a hitter like Teahen is a 3B.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 01:45 PM
We have to hope Morel is an average hitter like Teahen is an average hitter. We could plug him in to 3B for a long time. But he isn't, at least yet.

Right now Morel is a hitter like Teahen is a 3B.

I am honestly willing to live with the lack of offense coming from third base and Morel if it means solid defense.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:19 PM
We have to hope Morel is an average hitter like Teahen is an average hitter. We could plug him in to 3B for a long time. But he isn't, at least yet.

Right now Morel is a hitter like Teahen is a 3B.
This makes no sense.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:24 PM
I am honestly willing to live with the lack of offense coming from third base and Morel if it means solid defense.


For that, then give me Vizquel for one more season.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:25 PM
For that, then give me Vizquel for one more season.
This makes even less sense.

"Not enough offense? Give me worse defense!"

Tragg
09-25-2010, 02:26 PM
This makes no sense.
It makes sense. Whether one agrees or not, is questionable.


He says that the upside for Morel is that he become an average hitter, like TEahen is;

But right now, Morel doesn't hit like Teahen hits; he hits like Teahen plays 3B, which is below average.

I'd still like to know who scouted him. It can't be Bell, unless the Sox work on 3 year old scouting reports when making trades. On second thought...

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:29 PM
It makes sense. Whether one agrees or not, is questionable.


He says that the upside for Morel is that he become an average hitter, like TEahen is;

But right now, Morel doesn't hit like Teahen hits; he hits like Teahen plays 3B, which is below average.

I'd still like to know who scouted him. It can't be Bell, unless the Sox work on 3 year old scouting reports when making trades. On second thought...
It doesn't make sense to judge Morel based on the limited number of at-bats he's received against very, very, very good starting pitchers. No sense whatsoever.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:30 PM
This makes even less sense.

"Not enough offense? Give me worse defense!"


How much worse is Vizquel's defense?

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:31 PM
How much worse is Vizquel's defense?
It's worse. Not a ton worse, but worse. What is Vizquel's offensive upside? What he did this season. What is Morel's upside? Higher.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:33 PM
It's worse. Not a ton worse, but worse. What is Vizquel's offensive upside? What he did this season. What is Morel's upside? Higher.


The last thing you need is to plug this kid in there and hit .220 - .230 and the fans riding his ass. Because that is what will happen.

Sam Spade
09-25-2010, 02:37 PM
I'm not sure why people are so down on his hitting. He has shown he might be able to hit for average, and be a strong doubles hitter, looking at his minor league numbers. He actually has more power than Teahen had during his minor league career. He might develop even more power at the major league level. A lot of players do. I'm extremely optimistic about him holding down third for a while. I hope kenny doesn't deal him away like so many other recent prospects.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:39 PM
The last thing you need is to plug this kid in there and hit .220 - .230 and the fans riding his ass. Because that is what will happen.
I'm glad your prescience allows you to make such airtight statements. You have no idea what Brent Morel will do offensively.

The least this organization can do is give him an opportunity to succeed at the major league level. One way of accomplishing this: upgrading offensively whenever/wherever possible. Let him take the keys to 3B.

Daver
09-25-2010, 02:42 PM
The last thing you need is to plug this kid in there and hit .220 - .230 and the fans riding his ass. Because that is what will happen.

Robin Ventura had sixty some MLB at bats before getting his first hit, he turned out to be all right.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:52 PM
Robin Ventura had sixty some MLB at bats before getting his first hit, he turned out to be all right.


When Robin broke in, the Sox were not expected to win. No pressure.

I think we can agree that the Sox will be expected to contend next season again, based on the starting staff they will be throwing out there again.

If we only had to hide one bat next season, I would saly let's go for it. But the line up next season looks like we might be looking to hide a few bats if some of these guys do not perform better than they did this season.

sox1970
09-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Robin Ventura had sixty some MLB at bats before getting his first hit, he turned out to be all right.

Ventura got a hit in his first game.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:53 PM
When Robin broke in, the Sox were not expected to win. No pressure.

I think we can agree that the Sox will be expected to contend next season again, based on the starting staff they will be throwing out there again.

If we only had to hide one bat next season, I would saly let's go for it. But the line up next season looks like we might be looking to hide a few bats if some of these guys do not perform better than they did this season.
So you'd rather have Vizquel out there, who is old as dirt, plays worse defense and doesn't have a good bat? So confusing.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm glad your prescience allows you to make such airtight statements. You have no idea what Brent Morel will do offensively.

The least this organization can do is give him an opportunity to succeed at the major league level. One way of accomplishing this: upgrading offensively whenever/wherever possible. Let him take the keys to 3B.


You are reading it wrong.

The fans riding his ass is what is guaranteed to happen if he struggles.

Our fanbase is extremely ruthless as we alredy know.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 02:56 PM
You are reading it wrong.

The fans riding his ass is what is guaranteed to happen if he struggles.

Our fanbase is extremely ruthless as we alredy know.
Okay. So...don't have young players?

Chez
09-25-2010, 02:56 PM
Robin Ventura had sixty some MLB at bats before getting his first hit, he turned out to be all right.

He had an 0 for 41 "streak" during his second year/first full year.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 02:57 PM
So you'd rather have Vizquel out there, who is old as dirt, plays worse defense and doesn't have a good bat? So confusing.


Am I missing where Omar Vizquel all of a sudden became a butcher at 3B:scratch:

At the very least, Omar hitting ninth and hitting .265 to .270 I can live with to go along with playing smart baseball (something lacking every year on this team).

Daver
09-25-2010, 03:00 PM
When Robin broke in, the Sox were not expected to win. No pressure.

I think we can agree that the Sox will be expected to contend next season again, based on the starting staff they will be throwing out there again.


I didn't expect them to compete this season, and won't make that prediction not knowing what the roster will be for next year.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Okay. So...don't have young players?


How many more young ones do you want?

This team is expected to win next season, you know?

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:01 PM
This makes even less sense.

"Not enough offense? Give me worse defense!"

Vizquel is probably a little bit better of a defender if only because he has played for so long and would know exactly where to position himself, but to count on him to provide much of anything at age 44 is a very bad idea. Barring an injury to Morel, he is the man for third.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:02 PM
I didn't expect them to compete this season, and won't make that prediction not knowing what the roster will be for next year.

Do you EVER expect them to compete?

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 03:02 PM
Am I missing where Omar Vizquel all of a sudden became a butcher at 3B:scratch:

At the very least, Omar hitting ninth and hitting .265 to .270 I can live with to go along with playing smart baseball (something lacking every year on this team).
1. He's not a butcher; he's just not as good as Morel.
2. His last 1070 PA before 2010: .246/.301/.308. Yowza. Expecting him to hit .265-.270 as a 44 year old would be, well, incredibly optimistic.

How many more young ones do you want?

This team is expected to win next season, you know?
It's more than Morel's the best option if we want to win in 2010. The fact that he's a young, pre-arbitration player is gravy.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:02 PM
I didn't expect them to compete this season, and won't make that prediction not knowing what the roster will be for next year.


I think with all that is invested in that starting rotation, the front office has to go all out and build a contender next season. Time is running out.


If not, they should blow this thing up. They should have never traded for Jackson nor Peavy.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 03:03 PM
Vizquel is probably a little bit better of a defender if only because he has played for so long and would know exactly where to position himself, but to count on him to provide much of anything at age 44 is a very bad idea. Barring an injury to Morel, he is the man for third.
Vizquel's craftiness can only go so far. He's not a bad defender, and it's no slight to say he doesn't have Morel's arm/range.

Sam Spade
09-25-2010, 03:04 PM
How many more young ones do you want?

This team is expected to win next season, you know?

Who cares if he is young? He has the potential to be the best option at 3rd base. Our budget is limited so that money used in free agency would be better spent somewhere else. We have gaping holes at first, catcher, DH. Are you suggesting we just play teahen at third? What are you suggesting? Anything but Morel?

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:07 PM
Vizquel's craftiness can only go so far. He's not a bad defender, and it's no slight to say he doesn't have Morel's arm/range.

Were Vizquel not 43 years old, I would feel ok with his defense at third for next year, but his age makes that too big of a risk. As you have said, Morel is the guy with far more upside if only because Vizquel is about at the end of the line. I would love for him to be back next year.

Daver
09-25-2010, 03:08 PM
I think with all that is invested in that starting rotation, the front office has to go all out and build a contender next season. Time is running out.


If not, they should blow this thing up. They should have never traded for Jackson nor Peavy.

What is the starting rotation next year?

You don't know, Peavy is still a question mark.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:09 PM
Who cares if he is young? He has the potential to be the best option at 3rd base. Our budget is limited so that money used in free agency would be better spent somewhere else. We have gaping holes at first, catcher, DH. Are you suggesting we just play teahen at third? What are you suggesting? Anything but Morel?


I am saying you plug in Vizquel and ride him until his legs fall off.

I don't think Vizquel will break your budget here.

If Morel hits well in AAA and Vizquel struggles, then you bring him up and hand him the job.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 03:10 PM
I am saying you plug in Vizquel and ride him until his legs fall off.

I don't think Vizquel will break your budget here.

If Morel hits well in AAA and Vizquel struggles, then you bring him up and hand him the job.
Morel just hit .320/.348/.503 in AAA. He has a major league glove. Putting him at third and Vizquel on the bench gives you versatility and depth. Putting Morel in AAA gives you nothing.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:10 PM
I am saying you plug in Vizquel and ride him until his legs fall off.

I don't think Vizquel will break your budget here.

If Morel hits well in AAA and Vizquel struggles, then you bring him up and hand him the job.

But Morel DID hit well in AAA and counting on consistent production from a guy who is 44 years old is just stupid and akin to not doing your homework and hoping for a snow day in October.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:12 PM
What is the starting rotation next year?

You don't know, Peavy is still a question mark.


Even with Peavy being a questions mark:

Danks
Floyd
Buehrle
Jackson
Sale?

That is a pretty good rotation to compete with.

Swap a healthy Peavy for Sale, you have a top 3 rotation in the game.

Sam Spade
09-25-2010, 03:13 PM
I am saying you plug in Vizquel and ride him until his legs fall off.

I don't think Vizquel will break your budget here.

If Morel hits well in AAA and Vizquel struggles, then you bring him up and hand him the job.
That sounds reasonable to me, but I would go the other way -have Morel start and Vizquel be the safety net. I think vizquel had kind of a fluke this year. I just don't think that its smart to expect someone that old to consistently produce.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:14 PM
Even with Peavy being a questions mark:

Danks
Floyd
Buehrle
Jackson
Sale?

That is a pretty good rotation to compete with.

Swap a healthy Peavy for Sale, you have a top 3 rotation in the game.

Sale is not ready for a starting role in the major leagues. I have no doubt he can be an effective reliever here in the majors, but he has never started a game in professional baseball, if he's going to start he is going to have to go to the minors and learn down there and be stretched out.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:14 PM
But Morel DID hit well in AAA and counting on consistent production from a guy who is 44 years old is just stupid and akin to not doing your homework and hoping for a snow day in October.


Does Vizquel play like a 44 year old?

Dear God, you and Grebeck are acting as if this guy is going out there on a walker.

Just by visual observation, the guy still has another season in him.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 03:16 PM
Does Vizquel play like a 44 year old?

Dear God, you and Grebeck are acting as if this guy is going out there on a walker.

Just by visual observation, the guy still has another season in him.
Again, last 1070 PA before 2010: .246/.301/.308. His legs already fell off three years ago, the White Sox glued them back on. Expecting the glue to hold in 2011 is foolish.

Sam Spade
09-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Sale is not ready for a starting role in the major leagues. I have no doubt he can be an effective reliever here in the majors, but he has never started a game in professional baseball, if he's going to start he is going to have to go to the minors and learn down there and be stretched out.
He can stretch out in spring training. I think he already has the stuff, and there would be growing pains, but what he needs to learn is mostly learned at the major league level.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Does Vizquel play like a 44 year old?

Dear God, you and Grebeck are acting as if this guy is going out there on a walker.

Just by visual observation, the guy still has another season in him.

No, but time will eventually catch up to him and it is going to catch up to him VERY soon. There are not many productive 44 year olds in the big leagues for a reason.

Sam Spade
09-25-2010, 03:18 PM
No, but time will eventually catch up to him and it is going to catch up to him VERY soon. There are not many productive 44 year olds in the big leagues for a reason.
Ageism.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 03:20 PM
Sale is not ready for a starting role in the major leagues. I have no doubt he can be an effective reliever here in the majors, but he has never started a game in professional baseball, if he's going to start he is going to have to go to the minors and learn down there and be stretched out.

As a 5th starter and being skipped when an off day is there, I think he is more than ready.

How much did TB pamper Price after making his debut as a reliever? He was in the rotation the following year. And he too had less than a year in the minors to get ready.

Daver
09-25-2010, 03:20 PM
He can stretch out in spring training.

I doubt it, the White Sox don't condition pitchers to be able to pull that off.

kufram
09-25-2010, 03:21 PM
I can think of no one better to have around for another year than Omar. To have Morel playing third, Alexei at SS and Beckham at 2b, with Omar subbing for them all, and helping them (the way he has helped Alexei this year) could be worth a lot for a long time.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:27 PM
As a 5th starter and being skipped when an off day is there, I think he is more than ready.

How much did TB pamper Price after making his debut as a reliever? He was in the rotation the following year. And he too had less than a year in the minors to get ready.

By the time Price came up he had started 27 games in the minors with 144 innings pitched, he also started 2009 in the minors. Conversely, Chris Sale has started zero games in professional baseball and has pitched 28 innings in professional baseball. You don't want a third baseman with over 300 games and 1200 ABs in the minors to start next year because of growing pains, but you want a kid who has never started a game and thrown a total of 28 innings in professional baseball to be the number five starter if Peavy can't pitch?

Tragg
09-25-2010, 03:29 PM
Even with Peavy being a questions mark:

Danks
Floyd
Buehrle
Jackson
Sale?

That is a pretty good rotation to compete with.

Swap a healthy Peavy for Sale, you have a top 3 rotation in the game.

I'd try Freddy or maybe even Pena (give him a start next week!). We need a RF...and we'll have to trade someone to get one.
And it isn't Teahen Kenny and Oz.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 03:30 PM
I can think of no one better to have around for another year than Omar. To have Morel playing third, Alexei at SS and Beckham at 2b, with Omar subbing for them all, and helping them (the way he has helped Alexei this year) could be worth a lot for a long time.

I agree with this, I would love Omar to come back because I think he is a great teacher and I think there is still a bit left in the tank, but to count on him to provide this kind of production and to play in 102 games at age 44 is foolish.

kufram
09-25-2010, 04:53 PM
I agree with this, I would love Omar to come back because I think he is a great teacher and I think there is still a bit left in the tank, but to count on him to provide this kind of production and to play in 102 games at age 44 is foolish.


He stepped up and solved a big problem for us this year and some were saying he was too old when they signed him. Of course his future is limited as far as playing goes but Alexei improved immensely this year and I think it was because of Omar. Signing him for a year gives you more than a backup infielder that knows how to play. It gives you a future manager as an infield coach for the young guys.

SCCWS
09-25-2010, 07:27 PM
I think a resurgence by Beckham could really take the pressure next year off Morel. If Morel is plugged into 3rd and at the end of May both he and Beckham are struggling offensively, then there will be pressure on the offense. But if Morel can be put in the 9th spot to get some abs. under his belt and Beckham is able to move up in the order and produce, the pressure on Morel will be less.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 08:17 PM
By the time Price came up he had started 27 games in the minors with 144 innings pitched, he also started 2009 in the minors. Conversely, Chris Sale has started zero games in professional baseball and has pitched 28 innings in professional baseball. You don't want a third baseman with over 300 games and 1200 ABs in the minors to start next year because of growing pains, but you want a kid who has never started a game and thrown a total of 28 innings in professional baseball to be the number five starter if Peavy can't pitch?


Question to you:

Who is closer to being a star at this level, Morel or Sale?

Daver
09-25-2010, 08:19 PM
Question to you:

Who is closer to being a star at this level, Morel or Sale?

Neither.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 08:25 PM
Neither.

I disagree. I think Sale looks to be our best pitching prospect since Alex Fernandez.

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 08:25 PM
I disagree. I think Sale looks to be our best pitching prospect since Alex Fernandez.
So don't hurry him.

DirtySox
09-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Question to you:

Who is closer to being a star at this level, Morel or Sale?

So the organization that has a track record of failing to develop its own prospects should continue to throw its best prospects (Sale) into the fire?

I'd prefer Sale go through some of his growing pains in the minors, where he is not accruing service time.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 08:47 PM
So the organization that has a track record of failing to develop its own prospects should continue to throw its best prospects (Sale) into the fire?

I'd prefer Sale go through some of his growing pains in the minors, where he is not accruing service time.


The FA clock has already started with him.

With all the holes on this team right now, the Sox cannot take the luxury to keep him down there long, especially if Peavy can't go in April.

WhiteSox5187
09-25-2010, 09:04 PM
Question to you:

Who is closer to being a star at this level, Morel or Sale?

I'd say Brent Morel is much closer to being a starting third baseman at the major league level than Sale is to being a major league starter. There is a major difference between being a starter and reliever.

Daver
09-25-2010, 09:06 PM
The FA clock has already started with him.



No it hasn't, he is signed to a minor league contract.

LoveYourSuit
09-25-2010, 10:16 PM
No it hasn't, he is signed to a minor league contract.


Isn't he on the 40 man roster this year, doesn't that count as service time for this year?

mcsoxfan
09-25-2010, 10:48 PM
There is no way that San Diego does Gonzalez for Quentin. I'm not sure what Quentin's trade value is, but I would imagine it is fairly small.

I would fire the GM who would trade Gonzalez for Quentin.
You poor folks have been bamboolezed by Reinsdorf for so long you have no idea was competency is.

LongLiveFisk
09-25-2010, 10:54 PM
And he just swiped his first base. :cool: :D:

stevemcstud
09-26-2010, 12:32 AM
Isn't he on the 40 man roster this year, doesn't that count as service time for this year?

Service time only gets counted when you are actually called up in the Bigs.

Technically Chris Sale's free agent clock has started but can be stopped at any time by sending him back down to AAA.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-26-2010, 11:40 AM
I see this guy has been making web gems pretty much EVERY GAME. That is awesome! What about his hitting? His striking out a lot, and isn't hitting for that good of average... what do the scouts project his average to be? It's really good in AAA, but that could mean many different things.

He reminds me so much of Crede, especially, if he could bat somewhere around .260 and play defense as well as he has... I would be VERY HAPPY.

Daver
09-26-2010, 12:27 PM
Isn't he on the 40 man roster this year, doesn't that count as service time for this year?

Service time is accrued when you are on the 25 man roster, not the 40, which is why teams wait till the Sept. roster expansion to call players up.

DirtySox
09-26-2010, 12:37 PM
I see this guy has been making web gems pretty much EVERY GAME. That is awesome! What about his hitting? His striking out a lot, and isn't hitting for that good of average... what do the scouts project his average to be? It's really good in AAA, but that could mean many different things.

He reminds me so much of Crede, especially, if he could bat somewhere around .260 and play defense as well as he has... I would be VERY HAPPY.

Sample size is still rather small, and as with many young players he is still adjusting. I'd recommend you read the fangraphs article (if you haven't) that I posted a bit back (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-need-morel-at-3b/).

Expect decent average, decent power, not a great OBP, but great defense.

DumpJerry
09-26-2010, 12:40 PM
I see this guy has been making web gems pretty much EVERY GAME. That is awesome! What about his hitting? His striking out a lot, and isn't hitting for that good of average... what do the scouts project his average to be? It's really good in AAA, but that could mean many different things.

He reminds me so much of Crede, especially, if he could bat somewhere around .260 and play defense as well as he has... I would be VERY HAPPY.
I'm not worried about his hitting. It took Robin Ventura a little bit of time to find his stroke. This kid is showing good potential at the Dish.

SoxSpeed22
09-26-2010, 08:10 PM
As long as Brent can catch the ball the way he has been, he can be a starter at the Major League level, as long as he's hitting 8th or 9th. That way he can improve his pitch recognition and batting with less pressure to hit home runs.
Now I will wait for the obligatory 'we said the same about Brian Anderson' posts. The biggest difference here is that Morel will work harder. Also, he's at least shown potential with his bat.

Huisj
09-26-2010, 08:29 PM
Service time is accrued when you are on the 25 man roster, not the 40, which is why teams wait till the Sept. roster expansion to call players up.

In Sale's case though, he was brought up at the beginning of August, so at that point, he had to be on the 25 man roster. I'm not sure what happens after September 1 when the roster is expanded--was he moved off the 25 man roster when Thornton or Putz came off the DL? And does that mean he accumulated just a month of service time for August but it not currently accumulating more this month?

Frater Perdurabo
09-26-2010, 09:12 PM
As long as Brent can catch the ball the way he has been, he can be a starter at the Major League level, as long as he's hitting 8th or 9th. That way he can improve his pitch recognition and batting with less pressure to hit home runs.
Now I will wait for the obligatory 'we said the same about Brian Anderson' posts. The biggest difference here is that Morel will work harder. Also, he's at least shown potential with his bat.

I just hope that if Morel wins the 3B job, that whoever is managing the Sox in 2011 (I hope it is Ozzie) will actually let him keep playing third, and not bench him in Game 2 (and every third game thereafter) just so Mark Teahen flash his lead glove and shotgun arm at the hot corner.

Pablo_Honey
09-26-2010, 09:37 PM
Isn't he on the 40 man roster this year, doesn't that count as service time for this year?
I think you're confusing service time with options, which is used for every year a player is on 40-man but not on 25-man. As for service time, it starts the moment the player joins the MLB team so yeah, Sale's FA clock already kicked in (Smart move by Sale's agent).

Service time is accrued when you are on the 25 man roster, not the 40, which is why teams wait till the Sept. roster expansion to call players up.
Actually, I believe the rules have changed regarding September call-up and service time. Now, September call-ups get service time like regular players. I tried looking for info on this, but no luck so far. Nevertheless, I'm 99.9% sure about this.

I see this guy has been making web gems pretty much EVERY GAME. That is awesome! What about his hitting? His striking out a lot, and isn't hitting for that good of average... what do the scouts project his average to be? It's really good in AAA, but that could mean many different things.
His bat was never a strong part of his game which is why he was considered an overdraft by many. Anyways, he shouldn't strike as much as he is doing now, but he will strike out a fair share whilst putting up a batting average around .260 to .280. His power leaves a lot to be desired for a corner infielder but he seems to have decent gap power. Overall, a guy who is solid all across the board but none spectacular.

In Sale's case though, he was brought up at the beginning of August, so at that point, he had to be on the 25 man roster. I'm not sure what happens after September 1 when the roster is expanded--was he moved off the 25 man roster when Thornton or Putz came off the DL? And does that mean he accumulated just a month of service time for August but it not currently accumulating more this month?
Sale should have accumulated service time for both August and September. I doubt there could be loopholes like that to exploit and even if there were, it wouldn't matter because September call-ups now get service time IIRC.

Daver
09-26-2010, 10:31 PM
If a player is not on the twenty five man roster he does not accrue MLB service time, it's in the CBA, the forty man roster exists to allow teams to keep players from FA, not to help them achieve it. It is what the arbitrators allowed back in the seventies when they did away with the reserve clause, and the owners to this day are fighting to do away with arbitration, even though they insisted on it when FA was born.

The rule 5 draft was also created at this time( I won't call it the rule V draft because it isn't) to allow players that had not made the 40 man roster after a certain amount of time from being drafted could be moved to another team without penalty to the player.

Before Curt Flood there was no such thing as a 40 man roster, the rest of the CBA changes were the results of MLB either blatantly breaking the law or being incredibly obtuse.

Pablo_Honey
09-26-2010, 11:11 PM
If a player is not on the twenty five man roster he does not accrue MLB service time, it's in the CBA, the forty man roster exists to allow teams to keep players from FA, not to help them achieve it.
Took me forever to find at least this tidbit of info from a respectable source regarding September call-ups and service time: (Click on the comment section and read Jeff Euston's comment, which should be the 6th comment from top)
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10988#commentMessage

So yes, I think September call-ups do count towards service time. Unless BP got this factual information completely wrong.

Danryan
09-27-2010, 12:43 AM
Yes, there are similarities to Crede, the obvious one is that in their batting stances they both exaggerate their weight on the left leg.

Tragg
09-27-2010, 02:24 PM
I just hope that if Morel wins the 3B job, that whoever is managing the Sox in 2011 (I hope it is Ozzie) will actually let him keep playing third, and not bench him in Game 2 (and every third game thereafter) just so Mark Teahen flash his lead glove and shotgun arm at the hot corner.

Your lead glove and shotgun arm won't be available; he's our RF for next year.

ChiSoxGal85
09-27-2010, 02:41 PM
Your lead glove and shotgun arm won't be available; he's our RF for next year.
Oh. No. Please, no.

DirtySox
10-02-2010, 12:08 AM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
No matter the ninth-inning K; @OzzieGuillen (http://twitter.com/OzzieGuillen) continues to rave about Brent Morel, saying pregame, "He's going to be at third base for good."

1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26144840807)

doublem23
10-02-2010, 12:14 AM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
No matter the ninth-inning K; @OzzieGuillen (http://twitter.com/OzzieGuillen) continues to rave about Brent Morel, saying pregame, "He's going to be at third base for good."

1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26144840807)

Nice. I hope that means Teahen will be taking a long walk off a short pier.

slavko
10-02-2010, 12:19 AM
Yes, there are similarities to Crede, the obvious one is that in their batting stances they both exaggerate their weight on the left leg.

Both have a similar halo at WSI. Why else the comparison to Ventura above who also started slowly, overlooking that Ventura was a supergreat hitter in college and Morel may never hit.

kjhanson
10-02-2010, 02:04 AM
Yes, there are similarities to Crede, the obvious one is that in their batting stances they both exaggerate their weight on the left leg.

Fantastic. And completely "exaggerated". This from the guy who asked what is "Wrong With Konerko" back in late April.

hawkjt
10-02-2010, 09:20 AM
Both have a similar halo at WSI. Why else the comparison to Ventura above who also started slowly, overlooking that Ventura was a supergreat hitter in college and Morel may never hit.


Yea, Crede was a favorite whipping boy on here for several years,but those of us who kept the faith had the last laugh. Silly us, hoping that Morel can be the answer at third. Crede hit great in the minors,but again,I guess that is not at the ''college'' level,which is way better....right.

It would be great if Morel had come up and hit .400 the last month,but he did not ,so he sucks,right?
Fans always hammer Kenny for not having patience with young players,while the truth is, it is the fans who bail on guys way too early.

DonnieDarko
10-02-2010, 10:56 AM
So next year we're going to have a 3B that can field great, but can't hit worth much of a lick?

Sounds fun! :(:

DirtySox
10-02-2010, 11:38 AM
So next year we're going to have a 3B that can field great, but can't hit worth much of a lick?

Sounds fun! :(:

Why won't he hit?

Pablo_Honey
10-02-2010, 12:07 PM
So next year we're going to have a 3B that can field great, but can't hit worth much of a lick?

Sounds fun! :(:
I think you are mixing up Teahen with Morel. It's not that Morel can't hit, it's just that he won't hit as well as, say, Ventura or Crede (from 2005 postseason to 2006). Teahen can't hit worth much of a lick. On the other hand, Morel has some contact skills and some gap power which might turn into homerun power at the Cell. A common comparison is Joe Randa.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 12:28 PM
I want stout glovework at the hot corner, and thus I'm willing to give Morel 1,000 ABs (roughly two full seasons) to learn to hit MLB pitching at an acceptable level.

Good defense is extremely important at SS, 2B, CF and 3B. It's also important at C, but the Sox have gotten by OK with AJ's mediocre catching because he handles the pitchers well.

3B is not a "bat first" position, and the Sox have the luxury of having decent hitters at CF, 2B and SS to be able to carry a "defense first" 3B, especially since Morel has shown the potential to hit acceptably in the majors.

I will be extremely pissed if Ozzie handles 3B in 2011 like he did CF in 2006.

Just like I didn't want the defensively-challenged Mackowiak anywhere near CF, I don't want the defensively-challenged Teahen anywhere near 3B.

slavko
10-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Yea, Crede was a favorite whipping boy on here for several years,but those of us who kept the faith had the last laugh. Silly us, hoping that Morel can be the answer at third. Crede hit great in the minors,but again,I guess that is not at the ''college'' level,which is way better....right.

It would be great if Morel had come up and hit .400 the last month,but he did not ,so he sucks,right?
Fans always hammer Kenny for not having patience with young players,while the truth is, it is the fans who bail on guys way too early.

I'm not saying Morel sucks at hitting, only that there is no evidence that he doesn't. Say, remember those endless threads about Crede's long swing? I was ambivalent on that one. Ventura's body of work prior to getting here was much superior to Crede's. IIRC, Ventura's problems were the result of acclimating to the Charlie Lau style. He never did live up to his college form, career wise.

Tragg
10-02-2010, 12:57 PM
I want stout glovework at the hot corner, and thus I'm willing to give Morel 1,000 ABs (roughly two full seasons) to learn to hit MLB pitching at an acceptable level.

Good defense is extremely important at SS, 2B, CF and 3B. It's also important at C, but the Sox have gotten by OK with AJ's mediocre catching because he handles the pitchers well.

3B is not a "bat first" position, and the Sox have the luxury of having decent hitters at CF, 2B and SS to be able to carry a "defense first" 3B, especially since Morel has shown the potential to hit acceptably in the majors.

I will be extremely pissed if Ozzie handles 3B in 2011 like he did CF in 2006.

Just like I didn't want the defensively-challenged Mackowiak anywhere near CF, I don't want the defensively-challenged Teahen anywhere near 3B.What usually happens is that Ozzie will replace Morel with someone who hits no better, but who fields far worse.

But because the player is a veteran, has a good attitude, and because Guillen is zero eye for talent, Ozzie will think it's in improvement and will stick by the lousy veteran all season.

Hopefully he'll let Morel alone, assuming he handles it defensively.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Hasn't Ozzie been raving how good Morel is? It's not like Ozzie is out to get us Sox fans. If Morel shows a good plate presence and plays good D this spring training... he's going to be the stater. I don't even think it's a question. The only way I can think can stop him from starting in 2011 is if the Sox get a real 3B, or he doesn't play well in spring training. That doesn't stop him from being a quick call-up either.

He has shown he can play GREAT, maybe gold glove worthy D at he major league level, he just has to bring the average up. He was actually very good this year in the minors at hitting, so he has talent, he just has to show it to Ozzie.

batting .292 the last 7 days btw! :bandance:

palehosepub
10-02-2010, 03:11 PM
Hasn't Ozzie been raving how good Morel is? It's not like Ozzie is out to get us Sox fans. If Morel shows a good plate presence and plays good D this spring training... he's going to be the stater. I don't even think it's a question. The only way I can think can stop him from starting in 2011 is if the Sox get a real 3B, or he doesn't play well in spring training. That doesn't stop him from being a quick call-up either.

He has shown he can play GREAT, maybe gold glove worthy D at he major league level, he just has to bring the average up. He was actually very good this year in the minors at hitting, so he has talent, he just has to show it to Ozzie.

batting .292 the last 7 days btw! :bandance:

I get the same impression -Ozzie has been on the pregame radio show saying how much he loves his defense and he has started Morel something like 15 straight games at 3B. I think its Morels job to lose in 2011

Pablo_Honey
10-02-2010, 03:39 PM
I think its Morels job to lose in 2011
...unless Morel goes through nasty growing pain, at which point it's TEAHEN TIME! Next year's third base situation has all the potential to unfold just like the 2006 centerfield debacle.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 04:17 PM
...unless Morel goes through nasty growing pain, at which point it's TEAHEN TIME! Next year's third base situation has all the potential to unfold just like the 2006 centerfield debacle.

Especially if Ozzie wants to give the veteran left-handed batter, Teahen, the advantage of hitting against RHP.

I sure hope Morel can hit LHP better than BA could. I also hope Morel doesn't get into a fight with Ozzie's kid.

EDIT: Oh, look at this! He's hitting .400 v. LHP (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=30601). He's the PERFECT platoon partner for Teahen in 2011! :angry:

soltrain21
10-02-2010, 05:15 PM
I will not enjoy next season if 3rd base has any sort of platoon situation involving Mark Teahen.

russ99
10-02-2010, 05:28 PM
I will be extremely pissed if Ozzie handles 3B in 2011 like he did CF in 2006.

Just like I didn't want the defensively-challenged Mackowiak anywhere near CF, I don't want the defensively-challenged Teahen anywhere near 3B.

How does this even remotely apply?

Erstad was hurt, Anderson sucked. At the time, did you want Raines to suit up and play CF?

Of all the bad raps Ozzie gets, the one that irks me most is that he's not supposed to use all 25 men on his team.

Because you deem that someone sucks, doesn't mean that he's not on the big-league roster, and shouldn't be used by the manager.

Not even Bobby Cox, Torre, La Russa, and other great managers have the same 8-9 guys play everyday and never starts/plays all the guys on his bench. Furthermore, every big league team, even the Yankees and Red Sox have some players on the bench who aren't up to snuff talent-wise.

Daver
10-02-2010, 05:39 PM
How does this even remotely apply?

Erstad was hurt, Anderson sucked. At the time, did you want Raines to suit up and play CF?



Anderson didn't suck, he was easily the best CFer the White Sox sent out there in over a decade.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 05:46 PM
How does this even remotely apply?

Erstad was hurt, Anderson sucked. At the time, did you want Raines to suit up and play CF?

Of all the bad raps Ozzie gets, the one that irks me most is that he's not supposed to use all 25 men on his team.

Because you deem that someone sucks, doesn't mean that he's not on the big-league roster, and shouldn't be used by the manager.

Not even Bobby Cox, Torre, La Russa, and other great managers have the same 8-9 guys play everyday and never starts/plays all the guys on his bench. Furthermore, every big league team, even the Yankees and Red Sox have some players on the bench who aren't up to snuff talent-wise.

Facts are stubborn things. Erstad was not on the team in 2006.

Most big league managers don't make players field positions they can't play. Even the woeful Pirates didn't play Mackowiak in CF in any one season as much as Ozzie did in 2006. But Ozzie had Mackowiak play CF in 63 games in 2006. Even Mackowiak, to his credit, admitted he should not be playing CF.

Ozzie again proved his ineptitude when he used Mark Kotsay - a bad hitter - at DH more than any other Sox player in 2010.

white sox bill
10-02-2010, 06:20 PM
Anderson didn't suck, he was easily the best CFer the White Sox sent out there in over a decade.
:rowandHey what about me??

WhiteSox5187
10-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Anderson didn't suck, he was easily the best CFer the White Sox sent out there in over a decade.

That says a lot about our CFs as Anderson is now a pitcher.

Rockabilly
10-02-2010, 07:24 PM
Anderson didn't suck, he was easily the best CFer the White Sox sent out there in over a decade.

Rios and Rowand are better than Anderson.

Daver
10-02-2010, 07:25 PM
That says a lot about our CFs as Anderson is now a pitcher.

He was a relief pitcher in HS as well.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 07:41 PM
Rios and Rowand are better than Anderson.

Definitely with the bat but not with the glove.

EDIT: But this thread is about Morel, not Anderson.

Daver
10-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Rios and Rowand are better than Anderson.

Only from an offensive standpoint, but baseball is not an offensive sport.

KRS1
10-02-2010, 08:21 PM
He was a relief pitcher in HS as well.

He came out of the pen for UofA, too.

nodiggity59
10-02-2010, 09:24 PM
Only from an offensive standpoint, but baseball is not an offensive sport.

Brian Anderson could not claim a starting OF position on the Kansas City Royals. That's right. The Kansas City Royals. And this was after he had spent several years in the league.

What more do you people need to know before you admit Ozzie was not wrong on BA? That BA's failures had nothing to do with "inconsistent playing time" and had everything to do with his own lack of talent?

BA sucks as a position player. Hopefully for him, he can become a good pitcher.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 09:29 PM
Why is this turning into a BA thread? Haven't we had enough of those?

I only said that Ozzie better not bench Morel just so Teahen can get regular ABs against RHP.

EDIT: Of course, if Ozzie did bench Morel just to give Teahen ABs against RHP, the Ozzpologists would defend him.

If Ozzie killed a kitten, the Ozzpologists would say the kitten had it coming.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-02-2010, 09:34 PM
EDIT: Of course, if Ozzie did bench Morel just to give Teahen ABs against RHP, the Ozzpologists would defend him.

If Ozzie killed a kitten, the Ozzpologists would say the kitten had it coming.Likewise for the people who would bash Ozzie for saving a kitten from a tree. Get over yourself. :rolleyes:

JB98
10-02-2010, 09:35 PM
Why is this turning into a BA thread? Haven't we had enough of those?

I only said that Ozzie better not bench Morel just so Teahen can get regular ABs against RHP.

EDIT: Of course, if Ozzie did bench Morel just to give Teahen ABs against RHP, the Ozzpologists would defend him.

If Ozzie killed a kitten, the Ozzpologists would say the kitten had it coming.

Morel has started 16 consecutive games at 3B. Doesn't seem like Ozzie is real concerned about getting Teahen ABs against RHP.

slavko
10-02-2010, 09:49 PM
No argument is as good as an old argument. Who needs politics?

Rios and Rowand are better hitters but not as good fielders as Brian. Cameron, who fits in the referenced decade, was a better fielder than Brian. Mike is not ancient enough to forget, c'mon folks.

Fear it:Ozzie was quoted as telling Teahen not to rule out playing third base next year. I don't mind his bat and his plate discipline, though. So come the first weakness in Morel's bat......here we go again.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 09:50 PM
Morel has started 16 consecutive games at 3B. Doesn't seem like Ozzie is real concerned about getting Teahen ABs against RHP.

Yes, Ozzie is doing a good job letting Morel play. He deserves kudos for that.

I'll give Ozzie credit when he earns it and I'll rip him when he does something stupid, like play Teahen at third in 2011.

Pablo_Honey
10-02-2010, 09:57 PM
Only from an offensive standpoint, but baseball is not an offensive sport.
A sport where the objective is to score more than the other team is anything but defensive. Of course, defense matters too - leaning heavily towards one side isn't a good idea - but baseball today is tailored to favour offense over defense.

Morel has started 16 consecutive games at 3B. Doesn't seem like Ozzie is real concerned about getting Teahen ABs against RHP.
Well, Ozzie is pressured to let the kids play because the postseason hunt is over and all. Next year, Ozzie might start giving Teahen more time as a starter if Morel struggles to hit. I don't mean to senselessly bash Ozzie but I just got a bad feeling about this.

JB98
10-02-2010, 09:59 PM
Yes, Ozzie is doing a good job letting Morel play. He deserves kudos for that.

I'll give Ozzie credit when he earns it and I'll rip him when he does something stupid, like play Teahen at third in 2011.

I don't think that's going to happen. I think 3B might be Morel's to lose going into next year. And you'll probably see Vizquel at 3B in 2011 before you'll see Teahen. Even a blind man can see that Teahen is a butcher with the leather.

I believe Ozzie gets an unfair rap for his supposed poor treatment of young players. He stuck by Beckham when he was struggling. In fact, he showed more patience with Gordon than I would have. Now, Morel has earned the opportunity, and he's getting one.

We have had way too many Brian Anderson discussions on this board, but the fact of the matter is the people who liked/loved Anderson are the same people who continue to slam Ozzie for his handling of young players. The FOBA have never forgiven Ozzie and never will. I accept that as part of the culture here at WSI.

JB98
10-02-2010, 10:00 PM
A sport where the objective is to score more than the other team is anything but defensive. Of course, defense matters too - leaning heavily towards one side isn't a good idea - but baseball today is tailored to favour offense over defense.


Well, Ozzie is pressured to let the kids play because the postseason hunt is over and all. Next year, Ozzie might start giving Teahen more time as a starter if Morel struggles to hit. I don't mean to senselessly bash Ozzie but I just got a bad feeling about this.

Pressured by who? Tragg?

Daver
10-02-2010, 10:16 PM
A sport where the objective is to score more than the other team is anything but defensive. Of course, defense matters too - leaning heavily towards one side isn't a good idea - but baseball today is tailored to favour offense over defense.


The objective is to keep the other team from scoring, it always has been, even after the idiocy of lowering the mound. Baseball is only an offensive sport when viewed from a numbers only perspective, I blame fantasy baseball for creating this belief. Like anything else, for most people perception is reality.

Frater Perdurabo
10-02-2010, 10:25 PM
I don't think that's going to happen. I think 3B might be Morel's to lose going into next year. And you'll probably see Vizquel at 3B in 2011 before you'll see Teahen. Even a blind man can see that Teahen is a butcher with the leather.

I believe Ozzie gets an unfair rap for his supposed poor treatment of young players. He stuck by Beckham when he was struggling. In fact, he showed more patience with Gordon than I would have. Now, Morel has earned the opportunity, and he's getting one.

We have had way too many Brian Anderson discussions on this board, but the fact of the matter is the people who liked/loved Anderson are the same people who continue to slam Ozzie for his handling of young players. The FOBA have never forgiven Ozzie and never will. I accept that as part of the culture here at WSI.

JB, I don't think Ozzie should be fired. I've said all along that he "earned" the 2011 season by winning the division in 2008.

I wasn't PO'd at Ozzie because he somehow "screwed" BA, but rather that I think the decision to play Mack over BA in 2006 in 2006 cost the Sox some wins.

It's the same thing with Morel. I don't "love" Morel as a player. I just want Ozzie to put his best fielding team on the field, especially at the premium defensive positions. I think third base is a premium defensive position, especially on a team with several ground ball pitchers and a pitching coach who teaches/preaches the "pitch to contact" philosophy. And I think if Ozzie tries to limit Morel's starts at third base next year so that he can play Teahen at third, that such a decision will actually hurt the team and cost them wins.

I'm a fan of the laundry, not the players themselves. I want the laundry to win, so I want the manager to start the players that give the Sox the best chance to win. And I think defense is an extremely important component in winning baseball.

Brian26
10-02-2010, 10:35 PM
A sport where the objective is to score more than the other team is anything but defensive.

Poor argument. The objective is just as easily stated as keeping the other team from scoring as much as you...through pitching and defense.

FielderJones
10-02-2010, 10:48 PM
Teahen's not going to be playing much third next season (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101002&content_id=15345806&notebook_id=15346386&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws).

Pablo_Honey
10-02-2010, 11:48 PM
Pressured by who? Tragg?
Well that was just a slip on my part. Stupid wording on my part. I should've said he's more enticed into playing the youngsters regardless of results. Pressure was just a really ****ing **** choice of wording.

The objective is to keep the other team from scoring, it always has been, even after the idiocy of lowering the mound. Baseball is only an offensive sport when viewed from a numbers only perspective, I blame fantasy baseball for creating this belief. Like anything else, for most people perception is reality.
This is turning into the "chicken-egg" debate. Yes, you have to stop other guys from scoring on you, but you also have to score to win. So, yes, it was downright ****ing stupid for me to say the game's offensive but I really don't see how you can flat out say this sports is defensive. It's a balance of both, the offense having the slight edge these days. Would anyone really want a team of 9 Brian Andersons?

Poor argument. The objective is just as easily stated as keeping the other team from scoring as much as you...through pitching and defense.
Yup. Just another one of my many mistakes that always needs to be pointed and corrected because I'm just ****ing not right in the head. Anyway, yes, you are right. The game's about limiting runs as well as scoring. I shouldn't have used that argument about the game being about scoring runs, although I did mention that you need defense too.

DirtySox
10-03-2010, 01:23 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
KW on Morel: "He's ready to play here. He hit .320 at Charlotte, what's he have still to learn down there?"
19 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285125133)

russ99
10-03-2010, 02:17 PM
Good deal. Pencil Morel in at 3B next year, which frees up cash for other holes. There may be some growing pains, but if the glovework keeps up, that would be fine, as long as we're not burying other lesser players in the 7-8-9 spot.

Hopefully this doesn't mean Teahen will be in RF next year... Is there a possibility he could be non-tendered, or does his extension preclude that?

Tragg
10-03-2010, 03:32 PM
I don't think that's going to happen. I think 3B might be Morel's to lose going into next year. And you'll probably see Vizquel at 3B in 2011 before you'll see Teahen. Even a blind man can see that Teahen is a butcher with the leather.

I believe Ozzie gets an unfair rap for his supposed poor treatment of young players. He stuck by Beckham when he was struggling. In fact, he showed more patience with Gordon than I would have. Now, Morel has earned the opportunity, and he's getting one.

We have had way too many Brian Anderson discussions on this board, but the fact of the matter is the people who liked/loved Anderson are the same people who continue to slam Ozzie for his handling of young players. The FOBA have never forgiven Ozzie and never will. I accept that as part of the culture here at WSI.
I had no particular love of Anderson. He's just the best example of Guillen's handling of young players because 3 times Guillen put inferior veterans ahead of him- Mack and Erstand and Wise (none were in his league defensively; and while they some may have been a bit better offensively, not compellingly so). And then the stark contrast the way he handled Wise when he started the season 1/30 (or thereabouts) at leadoff v Anderson's slow start in the NINE hole 3 years before, just make Anderson Exhibits A-E in discussing Guillen's evaluation and use of personnel.
My fear of Teahen is RF. I agree that he's unlikely to see much action at 3B.
The only position players i see not returning are Lillibridge (really has done nothing to keep himself around; although I guess he's no worse than most utility players), Kotsay obviously, Jones, and Pauli if they don't sign him.

GoSox2K3
10-03-2010, 05:08 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1056900746/BrettComiskeys_-_Copy_normal.jpg
CSNChi_Beatnik (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik) Brett Ballantini
KW on Morel: "He's ready to play here. He hit .320 at Charlotte, what's he have still to learn down there?"
19 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik/status/26285125133)

KW might be right, but this is also the same GM that said that Anderson was ready to play CF, Josh Fields was ready to play 3B, and that Teahen would be our 3B for 2010.

I'm not saying Morel is just like those other guys (i'm excited about his potential), but I don't put too much stock when KW says somebody is "ready to play for us".

doublem23
10-04-2010, 01:23 AM
Only from an offensive standpoint, but baseball is not an offensive sport.

A sport where the objective is to score more than the other team is anything but defensive. Of course, defense matters too - leaning heavily towards one side isn't a good idea - but baseball today is tailored to favour offense over defense.

I hate this ****ing stupid argument, anyone who tries to boil baseball down to simple absolutes just is out of their mind. Of course good teams allow other teams to score fewer runs, but that also logically means they score more runs, too.

Just for ****s and giggles, the 4 teams going to the AL playoffs this year finished 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th in R/G.

Good teams hit, pitch, and play defense.