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JermaineDye05
09-17-2010, 08:50 PM
I posted this in What's the Score since it involves FA speculation.

1B/DH- Adam Dunn or Prince Fielder
3B- Ryan Zimmerman
C- I really don't know. Just someone that can throw out a baserunner and at least swing an average bat.

SP- I think we're set, but I'd like to see extensions for Danks and Jackson.
RP- I'd like to see Putz back.

#1 on my list, I want that damn trophy back on the South Side.

This of course assumes that the Sox do not have some remarkable comeback at the same time the Twins fall off a cliff.

DirtySox
09-17-2010, 09:31 PM
An at least replacement level DH.

LoveYourSuit
09-17-2010, 09:36 PM
Beltre, Dunn, Closer.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2010, 09:45 PM
As a wish list, I'll ignore the Sox self-imposed payroll constraints.

Bring back the whole team intact, with the following changes: Dump Manny, Kotsay and Garcia. Sign Carl Crawford (RF). DH Quentin. 3B Morel.

Lineup: Pierre LF, Alexei SS, Crawford RF, Rios CF, PK 1B, TCQ DH, AJ C, Bacon 2B, Morel 3B

Bench: Castro (C), Jones (OF), Teahen (1B, DH, PH), Vizquel (IF)

Rotation: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Jackson

Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Putz, Sale, Santos, Linebrink, Pena

Apart from catcher, that might be the best defense in the AL. The only shortcoming is the corner OF arms, but that OF can go get the ball. Making Quentin the primary DH will keep him healthier and more productive.

This also might be the fastest team in the AL. Pierre, Alexei, Crawford, Rios and Bacon all will have double digit steals, with Pierre, Alexei and Crawford all locks for 30+. Morel might even steal 10. Jones and Vizquel can run well, too. That much speed throughout the roster would put a lot of pressure on opposing pitchers. That lineup also should hit for a very good average and a lot of extra base hits.

This also might be the best rotation and bullpen in the AL.

JermaineDye05
09-17-2010, 10:04 PM
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Putz, Sale, Santos, Linebrink, Pena



I think the Sox plan on starting him in the minors next season. I'm definitely for that. His arm is electric.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2010, 10:11 PM
I think the Sox plan on starting him in the minors next season. I'm definitely for that. His arm is electric.

Oh, I know. But since we're dealing in wish lists, I decided to ignore reality.

There are two reasons why I would like him to pitch in the bullpen in 2011. First, I think that Sale could learn just as much pitching one more full year in the Sox MLB bullpen as he could doing a full year starting in Birmingham or Charlotte. Second, I think he'd be a better addition to the 2011 bullpen than any potential free agent reliever, at a fraction of the cost.

Tragg
09-17-2010, 10:20 PM
A quality right-fielder.
A new manager or GM or both

JermaineDye05
09-17-2010, 10:39 PM
A quality right-fielder.
A new manager or GM or both

I think Kenny and Ozzie are both good. However, if the rumors are true that they don't necessarily get along, I think it would be best for one of them to go. I'd prefer to stick with Kenny given his track record.

nccwsfan
09-17-2010, 11:12 PM
I think the Sox plan on starting him in the minors next season. I'm definitely for that. His arm is electric.

If they're planning on him being in the starting rotation sometime in 11' he could potentially go to Charlotte. If they intend to use him in the bullpen you can etch his name in the Opening Day lineup.

1989
09-18-2010, 12:19 AM
As a wish list, I'll ignore the Sox self-imposed payroll constraints.

Bring back the whole team intact, with the following changes: Dump Manny, Kotsay and Garcia. Sign Carl Crawford (RF). DH Quentin. 3B Morel.

Lineup: Pierre LF, Alexei SS, Crawford RF, Rios CF, PK 1B, TCQ DH, AJ C, Bacon 2B, Morel 3B

Bench: Castro (C), Jones (OF), Teahen (1B, DH, PH), Vizquel (IF)

Rotation: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Jackson

Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Putz, Sale, Santos, Linebrink, Pena

Apart from catcher, that might be the best defense in the AL. The only shortcoming is the corner OF arms, but that OF can go get the ball. Making Quentin the primary DH will keep him healthier and more productive.

This also might be the fastest team in the AL. Pierre, Alexei, Crawford, Rios and Bacon all will have double digit steals, with Pierre, Alexei and Crawford all locks for 30+. Morel might even steal 10. Jones and Vizquel can run well, too. That much speed throughout the roster would put a lot of pressure on opposing pitchers. That lineup also should hit for a very good average and a lot of extra base hits.

This also might be the best rotation and bullpen in the AL.

Rios should be batting second in that lineup. Otherwise, that's a solid lineup. Outside of Konerko, no one on the team performed above expectations and I wouldn't be surprised if the pitching and offense picked it up next year because of that.

DumpJerry
09-18-2010, 12:39 AM
Hire this guy to make some offers to other teams for Teahen and Linebrink:
http://blogs.pioneerlocal.com/reeltime/godfather2.jpg

doublem23
09-18-2010, 01:33 AM
If we could just get rid of Teahen, I would be pretty happy.

LITTLE NELL
09-18-2010, 06:13 AM
My wish list is that 40,000 people showed up every game and we had $$$ to spend like the Yankees.

nccwsfan
09-18-2010, 11:54 AM
If we could just get rid of Teahen, I would be pretty happy.

They could feasibly trade him and Linebrink, but it would be a swapping of bad contracts. Having a very expensive bench player for another year wouldn't be the end of the world; I'd rather part with Linebrink and take our chances on another reliever.

Nelfox02
09-18-2010, 05:07 PM
My wish list is that 40,000 people showed up every game and we had $$$ to spend like the Yankees.


I cant even imagine this. Being a fan of an organization the expected to win every year, and when the failed to do it DID SOMETHING to address what failed. Having star/super star players in their PRIME YEARS......developing quality talent from your farm to complment the HIGH QUALITY free agents that you acquire on a REGULAR basis. To be a team that is feared in the divison and in big games, not a team that is AFRAID to play a chief division rival or in big games?

It would just be unreal to have a legit expectation to be in the post season every year

Domeshot17
09-18-2010, 05:17 PM
I cant even imagine this. Being a fan of an organization the expected to win every year, and when the failed to do it DID SOMETHING to address what failed. Having star/super star players in their PRIME YEARS......developing quality talent from your farm to complment the HIGH QUALITY free agents that you acquire on a REGULAR basis. To be a team that is feared in the divison and in big games, not a team that is AFRAID to play a chief division rival or in big games?

It would just be unreal to have a legit expectation to be in the post season every year

Pretty much how I feel. If the Sox could be the Yankees, or hell, even the Red Sox, it would be awesome.

We actually have people on this board defending the fact that is perfectly cool and okay that we have only made the playoffs once in 5 years. Could you imagine if the Yankees had missed 4 out of 5 post seasons in a row?

The Yankees commitment to winning is what Kenny Williams tries and tells us the Sox commitment to winning is. Truth be told, Kenny would probably be a better GM on the Yankees because he would have to defend the winning talk.

Nelfox02
09-18-2010, 05:29 PM
Yankees talk brings up an interesting idea----are the Sox content to be a baseball team in "the middle"? Does this organization have the commitment to move forward? To me we are a team that is defined by mediocrity-----mediocre attendance, mediorce overall talent typically, mediocre performance typically......

For years I used to think that if Sox ever reached the promised land, a lot would change for the better......at first it did----money was spent, the Sox went into the off season of 2005 and did a good job IMO to acquire pieces to improve a title winner......the fans responded, there was buzz around the team and then.......well we all know how it went. A good 2006 squad was not good enough and slowly but surely the sox have regressed each year back to the middle.

I just dont feel like we are going anywhere----we are not committed to young talent, we are not committed to aggressively marketing the team/product/ball park experience to attact attendance or interest, we are not committed to getting star talent, and despite the bull**** posturing we hear from KW I say we are not committed to winning

Why? we play in market that is not new york, but can easily support a juggernaut team. The Cubs will always be a huge deal in this town, and will always appeal to the tourists and party people that want to go out there and party and sun bathe.......but if the sox could WIN consistently I think the worm would turn quickly in our favor. People love winners, people want to be associated with winners, people will pay to go out and watch winners

whitesox4eva
09-18-2010, 06:17 PM
Wish list for next year. I'm not gonna do the bullpen because I don't know who exactly I want.

Starting lineup: Pierre LF, TCM SS, Rios CF, Konerko 1B, Crawford RF, V-Mart C, TCQ DH, Beckham 2B, Morel 3B

Bench: Castro (C), Jones (OF, DH), Vizquel (3B, SS, 2B), Adam LaRoche (1B, DH)

Starting Rotation:

Peavy
Buehrle
Danks
Jackson
Floyd

A. Cavatica
09-18-2010, 07:12 PM
Blow it all up. No more good money after bad.

DickAllen72
09-18-2010, 07:37 PM
Just for the record, Carl Crawford is not a RFer.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Nelfox:

I have never thought, especially after meeting and getting to know some of the front office guys, that the Sox don't care or don't want to win but they want to do it under their terms.

That means they won't go in the red even for a year or two if it means upgrading talent significantly, they won't deal with certain agents unless they have to, they want a certain type player in the clubhouse (i.e. a non vocal, non confrontational type...quiet leaders), they are very willing to take chances on guys especially if they are willing to play at less than market value.

Not saying they are right or wrong, they have a system, believe in that system and will not change until ownership changes.

That's just the way it is.

Lip

russ99
09-18-2010, 07:53 PM
2010 Wishlist:

1) Jenks and Pena cut loose the day after the World Series

2) Hardball negotiations with Quentin, Danks, AJ and Konerko. If they all expect huge raises, all are gone and we bring in Dunn and another lesser mid-order hitter, spend the rest on a closer.

3) Management assessing roster in January and spending to fix holes then and not wait until the deadline.

4) Ozzie and Kenny to bury the hatchet and work towards next year's team's success.

5) Fanbase dropping riduculous post 2005 expectations and realize not even the Yankees make the playoffs every year, and they spend almost twice as much as the Sox do.

Zisk77
09-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Blow it all up. No more good money after bad.

We have arguably the best 5 starters we've ever had in recent memory. A young lion in Sale and some good bp pieces. We are strong up the middle both defensively and offensively (Rios, Alexie, Beckham). And you want to blow it up?:scratch: That is truly sad.

I say Resign Paulie and maybe A.J. and sign any of the following:

V. Mart Dh, part time Catcher, some 1b or

Adam Dunn DH

or

Carl Crawford (would then have to trade Pierre or TCQ to DH Rios to RF CC to CF)

Or

Jason Werth... TCQ DH

Also, would like Cuddyer at 3b if twinks don't pick up option (prolly will). Downs LHP Tor for pen. Maybe Olivo at C. Bucks available too.

I'd say no to Beltre as he won't be worth the huge salary he is likely to get.

Good bye to:

Putz (offer him arb though as he'll leave to be a closer.
Jenks (maybe in package with Teahen for some prospects) maybe risk arbbing him.
Linebrink (no chance, but try...Teahen and Linbrink for Aramis Ramirez)
Maybe Pena if money is too tight
Ramon Castro $$ reasons not performance
Andruw Jones
Mark Kotsay

Nelfox02
09-19-2010, 12:45 AM
Nelfox:

I have never thought, especially after meeting and getting to know some of the front office guys, that the Sox don't care or don't want to win but they want to do it under their terms.

That means they won't go in the red even for a year or two if it means upgrading talent significantly, they won't deal with certain agents unless they have to, they want a certain type player in the clubhouse (i.e. a non vocal, non confrontational type...quiet leaders), they are very willing to take chances on guys especially if they are willing to play at less than market value.

Not saying they are right or wrong, they have a system, believe in that system and will not change until ownership changes.

That's just the way it is.

Lip


I made peace with the fact that the sox organization under JR will never take the steps needed to make this team an elite franchise (in all sports, mot just baseball) a long time ago....that doesnt mean that I am not frustrated by it tho.

What concerns me is that we now have a team in our divison that is building a history of dominating us. That team has a new ballpark that is drawing fans, building revenue, etc. That team already has established it knows how to draft, develop, coach, and manage its resources to make it a contender year in and year out. Obviously the sheer size of the Minn market will somewhat limit the ceiling of the Twins revenues, but a nice new outdoor stadium that will draw well with good baseball taking place there can finally give the Twins money to acquire solid FA targets to complement the seemingly endless amount of talent they grow.....

The sox current patterns you point out (leaders that are soft spoken and contribute to happy care free club houses, not willing to take a hit if it means improving the overall talent of the club significantly, taking chances on declining/damaged goods FA players b/c their price is right, not dealing with power agents etc) are not good enough now........and I think if the Twins become what I expect, the Sox wont have a chance in hell against them other than the occasional fluke year......

Even in 2005, that team was not built in the off season to win a title, no Sox fan I ever talked to even remotely saw that season coming going into opening day......the half ass approach this organization takes just wont cut it anymore

If the Twins go on and dominate us for the next few years attendance will continue to decline, along with TV ratings, ad rev, everything. Do the front office people you know realize that if things go this way that they will be leaving a lot of money on the table? Do they understand that in order to grow, you need to invest in your product offering? sometimes that investment hurts your profitablitly at the outset (even driving it into the red) but pays off in dividends down the line?

A. Cavatica
09-19-2010, 06:46 AM
I made peace with the fact that the sox organization under JR will never take the steps needed to make this team an elite franchise (in all sports, mot just baseball) a long time ago....that doesnt mean that I am not frustrated by it tho.

I completely agree! When was the last time the White Sox won the championship of major league soccer?

Tragg
09-19-2010, 10:13 AM
We have arguably the best 5 starters we've ever had in recent memory.

Do we?
Peavy lives on the disabled list.
None are really #1s

It's a good staff, but considering the amount of money invested, it could be better.

asindc
09-19-2010, 10:20 AM
Nelfox:

I have never thought, especially after meeting and getting to know some of the front office guys, that the Sox don't care or don't want to win but they want to do it under their terms.

That means they won't go in the red even for a year or two if it means upgrading talent significantly, they won't deal with certain agents unless they have to, they want a certain type player in the clubhouse (i.e. a non vocal, non confrontational type...quiet leaders), they are very willing to take chances on guys especially if they are willing to play at less than market value.

Not saying they are right or wrong, they have a system, believe in that system and will not change until ownership changes.

That's just the way it is.

Lip

Lip,

If your assessment is correct, then those clamoring to have KW fired will probably be disappointed with his replacement. I have often said and will continue to say that until ownership allows KW to spend like NYY and Boston do, it is unrealistic to expect the Sox to simply spend their way out of their mistakes.

asindc
09-19-2010, 10:26 AM
Do we?
Peavy lives on the disabled list.
None are really #1s

It's a good staff, but considering the amount of money invested, it could be better.

You mean as good as the NYY's rotation?

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 10:27 AM
Lip,

If your assessment is correct, then those clamoring to have KW fired will probably be disappointed with his replacement. I have often said and will continue to say that until ownership allows KW to spend like NYY and Boston do, it is unrealistic to expect the Sox to simply spend their way out of their mistakes.
Or until they can draft/acquire talent like the Reds, Rockies, Padres, Rangers, Twins, Braves, etc.

It's not a matter of burning money.

Zisk77
09-19-2010, 10:29 AM
Do we?
Peavy lives on the disabled list.
None are really #1s

It's a good staff, but considering the amount of money invested, it could be better.

Yes, on paper anyway.
Even without a true # 1 this would be the best staff in recent memory.
There isn't 4's or 5's just 2's and 3's
Who was our last # 1....McDowell?

Would you blow it up?

asindc
09-19-2010, 10:42 AM
Or until they can draft/acquire talent like the Reds, Rockies, Padres, Rangers, Twins, Braves, etc.

It's not a matter of burning money.

CG,

I think you remember enough of my posts expressing dissatisfaction with our scouting and farm system to know that I don't believe signing and trading for established vets is the only way to go. With that said, I don't get the impression from many on this board who are highly critical of management that they would be patient enough to wait for turnaround built through the farm system like the Reds, Padres, Rangers and, to a lesser extent, the Rockies have done.

It is a matter of spending money smartly, but the only time the Sox have built contending teams through their farm system is during the Schueler years in the late 80s and early 90s. As typical of such plans, it took years before that process produced the kind of results we wanted. The Twins put a lot of money into scouting and developing their own players, which is a huge factor in their consistent success. It will be interesting to see if their increased revenue this year induces them to play more aggressively in the FA market, something many of their fans have been highly critical of their FO for not doing in the past.

Craig Grebeck
09-19-2010, 11:16 AM
CG,

I think you remember enough of my posts expressing dissatisfaction with our scouting and farm system to know that I don't believe signing and trading for established vets is the only way to go. With that said, I don't get the impression from many on this board who are highly critical of management that they would be patient enough to wait for turnaround built through the farm system like the Reds, Padres, Rangers and, to a lesser extent, the Rockies have done.

It is a matter of spending money smartly, but the only time the Sox have built contending teams through their farm system is during the Schueler years in the late 80s and early 90s. As typical of such plans, it took years before that process produced the kind of results we wanted. The Twins put a lot of money into scouting and developing their own players, which is a huge factor in their consistent success. It will be interesting to see if their increased revenue this year induces them to play more aggressively in the FA market, something many of their fans have been highly critical of their FO for not doing in the past.
I know your thoughts in general, asindc. Very thoughtful and well-stated post. I'll get back to this.

And for the record, I hope they stay away from most free agents. At least the high-profile ones. Not a fan of Dunn at all on the open market.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2010, 01:30 AM
...until ownership allows KW to spend like NYY and Boston do, it is unrealistic to expect the Sox to simply spend their way out of their mistakes.I can't believe anybody would say this.

NOBODY spends like the Yankees. Nobody. Because they can't. Only the Yankees have that kind of revenue. Even Boston isn't close to the payroll of the Yankees.

If we expect the White Sox to ever spend even remotely like the Yankees, we're living in a dream world.

AlexRios51
09-22-2010, 01:08 AM
C V-mart
1B Loney/Konerko
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez
3B Morel
DH Konerko/Loney
LF Pierre
CF Rios
RF Crawford

Craig Grebeck
09-22-2010, 08:16 AM
Why do people like James Loney?

asindc
09-22-2010, 10:39 AM
Why do people like James Loney?

That's a good question.

VMSNS
09-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Why do people like James Loney?

He's bats lefty!

SI1020
09-22-2010, 01:46 PM
It is a matter of spending money smartly, but the only time the Sox have built contending teams through their farm system is during the Schueler years in the late 80s and early 90s. As typical of such plans, it took years before that process produced the kind of results we wanted. Larry Himes was the GM from 1987-90 when the Sox drafted Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas and Alex Fernandez in succession. All 4 were contributing by late in the 1990 season. Ron Schueler replaced Himes in 1991 and never came close to duplicating the draft successes of Himes.

FielderJones
09-22-2010, 02:11 PM
5) Fanbase dropping riduculous post 2005 expectations and realize not even the Yankees make the playoffs every year, and they spend almost twice as much as the Sox do.

In the wild-card era, the Yankees have missed the postseason exactly once. So you are technically correct.

NLaloosh
09-22-2010, 02:29 PM
A farm system.

International scouting and signings.

Rockabilly
09-22-2010, 02:33 PM
I want to see either the Sox start over with prospects and get rid of everyone(except Beckham, Alexei, Danks, Rios and Sale) or sign several star young players that will be with us for the next 5 years.

khan
09-22-2010, 02:44 PM
A quality right-fielder.
A new manager or GM or both
I'll add onto this:

I wish for the front office to actually either form a search committe, or to bother to interview for the now vacant-for-2-seasons position that Wilder held with respect to the Latin American operations.

Remember the Wilder fiasco? We know, KW's sheeple won't, but KW still hasn't bothered to fix it. Not having an international presence significantly hinders this organization's ability to compete, IMO.

My wish list is that 40,000 people showed up every game and we had $$$ to spend like the Yankees.
Well, put out a better product, and perhaps your wish will be granted.

Hoping that SOX fans will suddenly become like moronic scrubs fans despite a middling product is a bit naive, IMO.


We have arguably the best 5 starters we've ever had in recent memory.
1. The 2005 rotation would kick the crap out of this rotation, IMO.

2. This rotation is:
"Over-Rated!"
[clap-clap-clapclap-clap]
"Over-Rated!"
[clap-clap-clapclap-clap]
"Over-rated!"
[clap-clap-clapclap-clap]
"Over-rated,"
[clap-clap-clapclap-clap]

For my part, the $50M rotation probably needs to lose a piece, with the dollars invested elsewhere in the team. [1B, 3B, C, RF, DH, Closer, RH setup, etc...]


Lastly, I'd like the SOX to strategically go over-slot for draftees next season. Not to simply blow cash, by any means. But, where a 1st round talent can be had in the 3rd or 4th round [due to a college committment, for example] to SEIZE the opportunity to significantly upgrade the talent in the system.

russ99
09-22-2010, 03:15 PM
I wish people stop using the words "sheeple" and "apologist" around here.

It's disrespectful and implies their opinion doesn't matter.

khan
09-22-2010, 03:54 PM
I wish people stop using the words "sheeple" and "apologist" around here.

It's disrespectful and implies their opinion doesn't matter.

I'll go even further:

I also wish that some posters wouldn't make up imaginary reasons to excuse Ozzie for [once again] acting like a clown. I wish people around here wouldn't fall all over themselves to stick up for Ozzie [or KW], even when he's clearly in the wrong.


You know, like reacting to a story that was written in the Trib, and in the USA Today, and trying to assign blame to Joe Cowley, who works for the Sun Times. Or trying to blame Joe Cowley for something Ozzie directly said on The Score.

SoxSpeed22
09-22-2010, 04:09 PM
Improved domestic and international scouting.
Manager and general manager not being at each others throats.
Unified clubhouse.

russ99
09-22-2010, 04:17 PM
I'll go even further:

I also wish that some posters wouldn't make up imaginary reasons to excuse Ozzie for [once again] acting like a clown. I wish people around here wouldn't fall all over themselves to stick up for Ozzie [or KW], even when he's clearly in the wrong.
.

Some people just can't separate Ozzie the manager and the image of Ozzie that has been overblown in the press.

IMO the sorriest excuse in the world to fire a manager is because he's "not quiet".

Who cares? All I'm interested in is how well he can manage a team, and while there have been differing opinions on this, unequivocably nobody can say his seven years as Sox manager weren't successful, even discounting 2005 for some reason.

khan
09-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Some people just can't separate Ozzie the manager and the image of Ozzie that has been overblown in the press.

IMO the sorriest excuse in the world to fire a manager is because he's "not quiet".
Yeah, I blame Joe Cowley for ALL of this!

He's stirring up the dirt!


Who cares? All I'm interested in is how well he can manage a team, and while there have been differing opinions on this, unequivocably nobody can say his seven years as Sox manager weren't successful, even discounting 2005 for some reason.
Yeah, let's use a season from five years ago to justify what happens today.

Screw that, let's actually use the mistakes of yesteryear to justify incompetence and poor judgement of TODAY's team. Let's compare a team that behaved like a small market team in the 70s to TODAY's big market-behaving SOX. Let's cherry-pick seasons, teams, even the ****ty GMs and managers from years ago.

Because I saw them back then. Even though the 2010 SOX don't compete against the 1985 version of the SOX or the 1979 version of the SOX.

soltrain21
09-22-2010, 05:33 PM
Some people just can't separate Ozzie the manager and the image of Ozzie that has been overblown in the press.

IMO the sorriest excuse in the world to fire a manager is because he's "not quiet".

Who cares? All I'm interested in is how well he can manage a team, and while there have been differing opinions on this, unequivocably nobody can say his seven years as Sox manager weren't successful, even discounting 2005 for some reason.

I'm really curious - what do you think has been overblown by the media that he says?

russ99
09-22-2010, 05:58 PM
Yeah, I blame Joe Cowley for ALL of this!

He's stirring up the dirt!

Yeah, let's use a season from five years ago to justify what happens today.

Screw that, let's actually use the mistakes of yesteryear to justify incompetence and poor judgement of TODAY's team. Let's compare a team that behaved like a small market team in the 70s to TODAY's big market-behaving SOX. Let's cherry-pick seasons, teams, even the ****ty GMs and managers from years ago.

Because I saw them back then. Even though the 2010 SOX don't compete against the 1985 version of the SOX or the 1979 version of the SOX.

That's not the point at all. You assume the management of this team is "incompetent" and has "poor judgement". History doesn't side with that argument.

Teams have up and down seasons, and despite the hatred and finger pointing around around here, this is an up one. Sure playoffs are nice, but to expect that every year is unreasonable, and that alone doesn't imply a good season.

You're misinterpreting my comment anyway. I said throw away 2005, and Ozzie's still been a good, successful manager. I'm not basing my judgement on one season 5 years ago.

So sorry that he supposedly stepped on Brian Anderson's and Jim Thome's toes to make you and so others so hateful.

russ99
09-22-2010, 05:59 PM
I'm really curious - what do you think has been overblown by the media that he says?

Everything. His entire public persona. If you think that's what Ozzie is really like all the time, you're delusional.

SOXSINCE'70
09-22-2010, 06:10 PM
My 2011 wish list:

Win 1 more game than the Royals, Tiggers, Tribe and of course,
beat the ****in' Twinkies AT ALL COSTS!!

Kenny, Rick, Make it happen.

AlexRios51
09-22-2010, 07:37 PM
Why do people like James Loney?
He's young, a lefty, good bat, not alot of power but he drives in alot of runs(9hr's and 81rbi's).

Brian26
09-22-2010, 08:42 PM
Who cares? All I'm interested in is how well he can manage a team, and while there have been differing opinions on this, unequivocably nobody can say his seven years as Sox manager weren't successful, even discounting 2005 for some reason.

The Sox won the World Series, so 2005 was absolutely successful.

The five seasons following that, 2006-2010, saw a record increase in spending by the Sox along with some big-name, prolific on-field acquisitions. Considering the talent that was amassed and the types of salaries that were paid, having only one playoff game victory in the past five years is nothing but an unmitigated underachievement.

That doesn't fall on Kenny. It falls on the coaching staff and the manager.

russ99
09-22-2010, 08:54 PM
The Sox won the World Series, so 2005 was absolutely successful.

The five seasons following that, 2006-2010, saw a record increase in spending by the Sox along with some big-name, prolific on-field acquisitions. Considering the talent that was amassed and the types of salaries that were paid, having only one playoff game victory in the past five years is nothing but an unmitigated underachievement.

That doesn't fall on Kenny. It falls on the coaching staff and the manager.

How do you figure? I guess the 83 wins in 2004, the 90 wins in 2006, the 89 wins in 2008 and the 79 wins (so far) this year don't count for anything.

This is exactly what I mean by unrealistic expectations. No team is measured solely by postseason wins, except for the Yankees. And I can't think of anything the Sox have done or payroll expenditures approved to assume we've moved up to that level.

And oh yeah, this GM and coaching staff has 12 of those, more than any other Sox management team in their history.

soltrain21
09-22-2010, 09:45 PM
How do you figure? I guess the 83 wins in 2004, the 90 wins in 2006, the 89 wins in 2008 and the 79 wins (so far) this year don't count for anything.

This is exactly what I mean by unrealistic expectations. No team is measured solely by postseason wins, except for the Yankees. And I can't think of anything the Sox have done or payroll expenditures approved to assume we've moved up to that level.

And oh yeah, this GM and coaching staff has 12 of those, more than any other Sox management team in their history.

We are the largest market team in our division and spend over 100 million dollars on payroll. I'm measuring by division titles. I don't consider a good season 83 wins.

asindc
09-22-2010, 09:47 PM
Larry Himes was the GM from 1987-90 when the Sox drafted Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas and Alex Fernandez in succession. All 4 were contributing by late in the 1990 season. Ron Schueler replaced Himes in 1991 and never came close to duplicating the draft successes of Himes.

I sit corrected. I always thought of Schueler being the GM who drafted Thomas, Ventura, et. al.

Frater Perdurabo
09-22-2010, 10:57 PM
I expect the Sox to win the AL Central at least once every three years. Period. Anything less is unacceptable.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2010, 04:46 AM
He's young, a lefty, good bat, not alot of power but he drives in alot of runs(9hr's and 81rbi's).
He is not good. At all.

cleanwsox
09-23-2010, 09:56 AM
My wish list include dumping Jenks and getting Rafael Soriano to be our new closer.

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Just for the record, Carl Crawford is not a RFer.

And TCQ is?

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2010, 10:56 AM
That's not the point at all. You assume the management of this team is "incompetent" and has "poor judgement". History doesn't side with that argument.

Teams have up and down seasons, and despite the hatred and finger pointing around around here, this is an up one. Sure playoffs are nice, but to expect that every year is unreasonable, and that alone doesn't imply a good season.

You're misinterpreting my comment anyway. I said throw away 2005, and Ozzie's still been a good, successful manager. I'm not basing my judgement on one season 5 years ago.

So sorry that he supposedly stepped on Brian Anderson's and Jim Thome's toes to make you and so others so hateful.

How is this season an up one? The Sox choked when it most counted.

Take away 2005 and there's not much to talk about. 1 division title and that's it. How can you celebrate such mediocre results? The Sox spend too much money and are in too big of a market to be ok with those kind of results.

russ99
09-23-2010, 11:03 AM
How is this season an up one? The Sox choked when it most counted.

Take away 2005 and there's not much to talk about. 1 division title and that's it. How can you celebrate such mediocre results? The Sox spend too much money and are in too big of a market to be ok with those kind of results.

It's an up year, because we contended for the division well into September. 2007 and 2009 were down ones, that's mediocre.

Being a big market and how high your payroll is has little to do with winning titles. If it were, the Cubs would win every year. Sure, it helps, but the players have to perform.

It's like a crutch (along with discounting 2005) to justify the overblown expectations of winning the division every year or every other year which even good teams don't do.

Look at the Red Sox, Angels and Cardinals this year, are their fans thinking this way?

Moses_Scurry
09-23-2010, 11:05 AM
A quality, slugging outfielder who can play RF and put Quentin to DH (or trade)

A couple bullpen guys who don't have Linebrink contracts

Keep AJ and PK

I'd love a 3B upgrade, but I don't see them getting one because of Teahen's contract. Therefore, I hope they re-sign Omar.

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2010, 11:37 AM
It's an up year, because we contended for the division well into September. 2007 and 2009 were down ones, that's mediocre.

Being a big market and how high your payroll is has little to do with winning titles. If it were, the Cubs would win every year. Sure, it helps, but the players have to perform.

It's like a crutch (along with discounting 2005) to justify the overblown expectations of winning the division every year or every other year which even good teams don't do.

Look at the Red Sox, Angels and Cardinals this year, are their fans thinking this way?

Winning the division only once since 2005 to me is a HUGE failure. No we can't win it every year but once every five years is not good enough.

Spending money does not equal winning, but when you play in a big market and spend a ton of money and still fail that only shines a brighter light on your failure. Your example of the Cubs only makes my argument stronger. The players do have to perform but management/coaching plays a big part in that.

doublem23
09-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Since 2005, the Sox have a 410-401 record. 9 games above .500, with 10 games left this season that they don't seem to be at all interested in winning.

OK, I'll concede it's a stretch to say the last 5 seasons have been "bad," but it's just as big a stretch to say they've been good, too.

Ozzie or Kenny. It's probably time for one to go.

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2010, 11:57 AM
Since 2005, the Sox have a 410-401 record. 9 games above .500, with 10 games left this season that they don't seem to be at all interested in winning.

OK, I'll concede it's a stretch to say the last 5 seasons have been "bad," but it's just as big a stretch to say they've been good, too.

Ozzie or Kenny. It's probably time for one to go.

Thanks for that stat.
I agree it is time for a change. Enough with mediocre results.

khan
09-23-2010, 12:41 PM
I'd add to the avalanche of responses to russ99's assertions here, but I see that many others have already covered that.

Perhaps some here simply need to raise their expecations of the biggest market team in the division. Or perhaps they need to let go of the past, and live in the present. Or perhaps they're the type that throw a huge party, give their kids every luxury, and a $200 weekly allowance when they bring back Cs and Ds on their report cards when their kids have A/B intellect and ability.


In either case, the results have not been up to what KW and Ozzie THEMSELVES would set for the club in most seasons since 2005. As such, my wish list is set so that this club can win the NEXT winnable division, AL, and WS.

Zisk77
09-23-2010, 12:42 PM
And TCQ is?

Yes and no. Both TCQ and Crawford are suspect defenders. Crawford gets bad jumps but has make-up speed and is better at fielding than TCQ. The difference here, and its a big one, is TCQ has a rf arm and Crawford doesn't. People don't abuse the sox going 1st to 3b on single to RF with TCQ (just on hits to LF with Juan :o:). But they would if Crawford was playing RF.

If we acquired Crawford he has to play LF or C and he can't hold Rios' jock in CF. But Rios could play RF.

fox23
09-23-2010, 02:24 PM
How do you figure? I guess the 83 wins in 2004, the 90 wins in 2006, the 89 wins in 2008 and the 79 wins (so far) this year don't count for anything.

This is exactly what I mean by unrealistic expectations. No team is measured solely by postseason wins, except for the Yankees. And I can't think of anything the Sox have done or payroll expenditures approved to assume we've moved up to that level.

And oh yeah, this GM and coaching staff has 12 of those, more than any other Sox management team in their history.

If I was living in KC and paying $7 to go to a game, I'd be thrilled with those results. Living in Chicago and paying upwards of $60 to go to a game, I expect a few more trips to the playoffs than the average team.

SI1020
09-23-2010, 04:11 PM
Since 2005, the Sox have a 410-401 record. 9 games above .500, with 10 games left this season that they don't seem to be at all interested in winning.

OK, I'll concede it's a stretch to say the last 5 seasons have been "bad," but it's just as big a stretch to say they've been good, too.

Ozzie or Kenny. It's probably time for one to go. I did it over and over and I come up with 410-391.

06 90-72
07 72-90
08 89-74
09 79-83
10 80-72

Totals 410-391

After winning it all in 05 the Sox were 56-29 on July 6, 2006. We have 4+ seasons of very mediocre baseball on the south side. Sorry for being picky. In the kind of work I do even minor errors can be disastrous, and yes sometimes I do make them.

cards press box
09-23-2010, 04:31 PM
Look at the Red Sox, Angels and Cardinals this year, are their fans thinking this way?

On a side note, I remember thinking in April that the White Sox, Angels and Red Sox all got off to unusually bad starts. I couldn't imagine all three teams missing the playoffs but that is exactly what is going to happen.

It goes to show how important it is to start fast out of the gate.

russ99
09-23-2010, 04:33 PM
I did it over and over and I come up with 410-391.

06 90-72
07 72-90
08 89-74
09 79-83
10 80-72

Totals 410-391

After winning it all in 05 the Sox were 56-29 on July 6, 2006. We have 4+ seasons of very mediocre baseball on the south side. Sorry for being picky. In the kind of work I do even minor errors can be disastrous, and yes sometimes I do make them.

Sure, if you add in the disaster of 2007, any total numbers look bad.

My point being 90 wins in 06, 89 wins in 08, and somewhere around 86 (hopefully) this year isn't mediocre.

Maybe we should check those numbers vs. other non-Yankee/Red Sox teams, to get a good comparison.

doublem23
09-23-2010, 04:47 PM
Sure, if you add in the disaster of 2007, any total numbers look bad.

My point being 90 wins in 06, 89 wins in 08, and somewhere around 86 (hopefully) this year isn't mediocre.

Maybe we should check those numbers vs. other non-Yankee/Red Sox teams, to get a good comparison.

What bull****. 2007 happened. If Ozzie detractors aren't allowed to use it, then Ozzie supporters shouldn't be allowed to use 2005, either.

khan
09-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Sure, if you add in the disaster of 2007, any total numbers look bad.
Yes, let's cherry-pick numbers to advance a faulty argument.

My point being 90 wins in 06, 89 wins in 08, and somewhere around 86 (hopefully) this year isn't mediocre.
...with all of 1 postseason berth... Yay mediocrity!

Maybe we should check those numbers vs. other non-Yankee/Red Sox teams, to get a good comparison.

Here, let's try a team that has UNDERspent the SOX for years. [Since you're trying to qualify and justify the mediocrity of the SOX over the past 5 years by using the "non-Yankee/Red Sox" bit.]

Minnesota Twins
2006: 96 - 66
2007: 79 - 83
2008: 88 - 75
2009: 87 - 76
2010: Perhaps 95 - 67, if they go 5-5 in their last 10 games.

Total: 445 - 367.

That's right, a WHOPPING 78 games above .500 since 2005. An average of 89 wins a season. 2 Division wins in that time. [perhaps 3 if their stupid 3rd base coach didn't send a slow runner in the Blackout Game]

(And unlike others, I'm not cherry-picking and excluding their craptacular 2007.)


Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention: They've spent less than our SOX in each and every one of those seasons, while kicking the SOX in the teeth in 4 out of 5 of those seasons. If we use your 86 win number for the SOX's 2010 season [which may or may not come to pass], the SOX still come out to average a mediocre 83.2 wins per season in 2006 - 2010.

russ99
09-23-2010, 05:51 PM
What bull****. 2007 happened. If Ozzie detractors aren't allowed to use it, then Ozzie supporters shouldn't be allowed to use 2005, either.

But I thought 2005 doesn't count...

My whole point is the relative success of the team in the "good years" isn't mediocre. Where did I ever consider 2007 one of those?

russ99
09-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Yes, let's cherry-pick numbers to advance a faulty argument.

...with all of 1 postseason berth... Yay mediocrity!

Here, let's try a team that has UNDERspent the SOX for years. [Since you're trying to qualify and justify the mediocrity of the SOX over the past 5 years by using the "non-Yankee/Red Sox" bit.]

Minnesota Twins
2006: 96 - 66
2007: 79 - 83
2008: 88 - 75
2009: 87 - 76
2010: Perhaps 95 - 67, if they go 5-5 in their last 10 games.

Total: 445 - 367.

That's right, a WHOPPING 78 games above .500 since 2005. An average of 89 wins a season. 2 Division wins in that time. [perhaps 3 if their stupid 3rd base coach didn't send a slow runner in the Blackout Game]

(And unlike others, I'm not cherry-picking and excluding their craptacular 2007.)


Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention: They've spent less than our SOX in each and every one of those seasons, while kicking the SOX in the teeth in 4 out of 5 of those seasons. If we use your 86 win number for the SOX's 2010 season [which may or may not come to pass], the SOX still come out to average a mediocre 83.2 wins per season in 2006 - 2010.

Interesting. Yes, we all know the Twins have our number the last few years. But that's simple, they have more overall talent than we do, despite less payroll.

So do you consider the years the Twins won 88 and 87 wins mediocrity too?

Brian26
09-23-2010, 08:27 PM
My point being 90 wins in 06, 89 wins in 08, and somewhere around 86 (hopefully) this year isn't mediocre.

Considering the division we play in and the record payroll that has been shelled out by Jerry since '06, yes, those win totals are mediocre.

DumpJerry
09-23-2010, 10:36 PM
Sure, if you add in the disaster of 2007, any total numbers look bad.

My point being 90 wins in 06, 89 wins in 08, and somewhere around 86 (hopefully) this year isn't mediocre.

Maybe we should check those numbers vs. other non-Yankee/Red Sox teams, to get a good comparison.
Having become a fan in 1971, anything more than 75 wins in a season is considered healing from past wounds/trauma.

GoSox2K3
09-24-2010, 12:52 PM
I wish people stop using the words "sheeple" and "apologist" around here.

It's disrespectful and implies their opinion doesn't matter.

:violin::whiner:

Opinions matter, but when they constantly twist and turn in any attempt to keep any blame away from Ozzie, the credibility of those posters drops to near zero.

AlexRios51
09-24-2010, 01:58 PM
He is not good. At all.

He's better than almost half of our lineup and good enough for what they'd ask for in return.

khan
09-24-2010, 02:01 PM
Interesting. Yes, we all know the Twins have our number the last few years. But that's simple, they have more overall talent than we do, despite less payroll.
They are also MUCH better-coached than the SOX. [With the stupid decision in the Blackout game being a notable exception.] They also have a MUCH better front office than the SOX.

So do you consider the years the Twins won 88 and 87 wins mediocrity too?
Ah yes:

The treasured tradition of cherry-picking data to make a weak and uninformed opinion apear even remotely reasonable.

Here's the thing about your weak, cherry-picked argument though, russ:

When the twins won 87 games in 2009, they WON THE DIVISION, while the high-payroll SOX were [once again] watching from home. [By virtue of the craptacular 79-83 record they gave us.]

When the twins won 88 games in 2008, they TIED the sox for the regular season ALC crown. In fact, the twins beat the team led by "oh-my-god-I'm-ozzie-so-I'll-genuflect-before-the-twins-and-gardenhire" in head to head competition. And as I've already stated, absent a ridiculously stupid decision by their 3rd base coach, AND the heroics of some ****ty DH who OBVIOUSLY sucked more than Kotsay, the twins might have won their THIRD division since 2005.


Once again, we eagerly await your contortions, spin, ignoring clear facts, and outright faulty arguments to somehow puff up mediocrity by the Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams-led SOX in recent years.

Nellie_Fox
09-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Opinions matter, but when they constantly twist and turn in any attempt to keep any blame away from Ozzie, the credibility of those posters drops to near zero.Just as it does with the posters who twist and turn everything to be Ozzie's fault.

GoSox2K3
09-25-2010, 11:19 AM
Just as it does with the posters who twist and turn everything to be Ozzie's fault.

Agreed. But what does that have to do with this discussion?:dunno: Those equally-wrong other posters aren't here in this thread changing the topic from our 2011 wish list to a "stop arguing with me" debate, are they?

Craig Grebeck
09-25-2010, 11:34 AM
He's better than almost half of our lineup and good enough for what they'd ask for in return.
James Loney, three-year splits:

.280/.342/.410

Yowza. A first-baseman, who is sure to receive much more money than he deserves because of an arbitration system that values garbage like RsBI and batting average. Again, where do I sign?

KMcMahon817
09-26-2010, 12:07 AM
James Loney, three-year splits:

.280/.342/.410

Yowza. A first-baseman, who is sure to receive much more money than he deserves because of an arbitration system that values garbage like RsBI and batting average. Again, where do I sign?

Yeah, BA and RBI's don't matter. Dear lord. :rolleyes:

Yowza is right.