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SCCWS
09-17-2010, 07:28 AM
"When I'm told to do something I try to go out there and do it to the best of my ability," Buehrle said. "Obviously you got to protect your guys"


Obviously his performance this season is one reason this team has faded. But a veteran pitcher should not have to be "told" to retaliate to protect hitters, especially your best player. I understand a player could be fined by admitting he went after an opponent. It would be better to say nothing than to say he was "told" to do it. This guy is not a team leader.

The White Sox need to change their mentality. How many times have the Twins hit White Sox batters in big games? Last series it was TCQ.

Maybe the Red Sox will still have an interest in Buehrle, but obviously they will not offer the type of package they did last time.

hi im skot
09-17-2010, 07:54 AM
Chicago Tough!

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 07:56 AM
Maybe Buehrle thinks -- as many reasonable people agree -- that the best way to retaliate is to win. But, hey, just throwing it out there.

AND CHICAGO TOUGH.

asindc
09-17-2010, 08:04 AM
Maybe Buehrle thinks -- as many reasonable people agree -- that the best way to retaliate is to win. But, hey, just throwing it out there.

AND CHICAGO TOUGH.

It is. If the Sox were 13-5 against the Twinkees this year instead of the other way around, then their juvenile antics would look even sillier.

About Buehrle: When he signed his latest contract, I thought that there was a good chance that we were overpaying him, but for a lot of not-purely baseball reasons, I understood the move. To a lesser extent, I thought the same about Pauly's contract. Since fan sentiment was a major factor in both moves, I think it would be disingenous of most Sox fans to complain about Buehrle or Pauly not playing to the full value of his contract.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 08:29 AM
It is. If the Sox were 13-5 against the Twinkees this year instead of the other way around, then their juvenile antics would look even sillier.

About Buehrle: When he signed his latest contract, I thought that there was a good chance that we were overpaying him, but for a lot reason not-purely baseball reasons, I understood the move. To a lesser extent, I thought the same about Pauly's contract. Since fan sentiment was a major factor in both moves, I think it would disingenous of most Sox fans to complain about Buehrle or Pauly not playing to the full value of his contract.
I was at the game in 2007 when they announced Buehrle returning. The Sox were dead -- if I remember correctly they had just won -- but when Gene Honda made the announcement over the PA, and Buehrle came out, I teared up. It was incredible. I'll never complain about Mark not fulfilling his contract. He's still a reliable, above-average pitcher.

Though, on the subject of Mark, I'd like to see the White Sox shut him down. Get him on his offseason program sooner -- more rest for his arm.

asindc
09-17-2010, 08:35 AM
I was at the game in 2007 when they announced Buehrle returning. The Sox were dead -- if I remember correctly they had just won -- but when Gene Honda made the announcement over the PA, and Buehrle came out, I teared up. It was incredible. I'll never complain about Mark not fulfilling his contract. He's still a reliable, above-average pitcher.

Though, on the subject of Mark, I'd like to see the White Sox shut him down. Get him on his offseason program sooner -- more rest for his arm.

Agreed. Whatever he is doing in the offseason the past four years is not working for his stamina.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 08:37 AM
Agreed. Whatever he is doing in the offseason the past four years is not working for his stamina.
Also, regarding Konerko, I'm less willing to give him a contract like Buehrle's because the payroll situation is so much worse. Rios and Peavy will eat a lot lot lot of money for the next few years.

Plus he's older, of course.

PorkChopExpress
09-17-2010, 08:45 AM
Agreed. Whatever he is doing in the offseason the past four years is not working for his stamina.

You mean getting older?

psyclonis
09-17-2010, 08:52 AM
Why wasnt there a team brawl?

Being 8 games back and playing a team that constantly disrespects you;
If I was on the bench and I saw my captain get hit in the face in the 1st inning I would have rushed the mound from the dugout...

I guess when you make more $ than 99% of the world, you have little reason to get upset or angry...

asindc
09-17-2010, 08:54 AM
You mean getting older?

He is only 31, and his 2nd half fades began in 2006 when he was 27. I understood 2006 to some extent because of the extended 2005 season, but to consistently fade like this while in his prime can't be contributed primarily to ageing, IMO.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 08:58 AM
Why wasnt there a team brawl?

Being 8 games back and playing a team that constantly disrespects you;
If I was on the bench and I saw my captain get hit in the face in the 1st inning I would have rushed the mound from the dugout...

I guess when you make more $ than 99% of the world, you have little reason to get upset or angry...
what in the

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 09:01 AM
Why wasnt there a team brawl?

Being 8 games back and playing a team that constantly disrespects you;
If I was on the bench and I saw my captain get hit in the face in the 1st inning I would have rushed the mound from the dugout...

I guess when you make more $ than 99% of the world, you have little reason to get upset or angry...

This isn't a sports movie.

Noneck
09-17-2010, 09:08 AM
He is only 31, and his 2nd half fades began in 2006 when he was 27. I understood 2006 to some extent because of the extended 2005 season, but to consistently fade like this while in his prime can't be contributed primarily to ageing, IMO.

I looked at this years stats and there is not that much difference between the 1st and 2nd halfs. He is just a .500 innings eater.

jdm2662
09-17-2010, 09:15 AM
I looked at this years stats and there is not that much difference between the 1st and 2nd halfs. He is just a .500 innings eater.

Yep, he was very meh this year. Not horrible, but not great, either.

happydude
09-17-2010, 09:21 AM
Why wasnt there a team brawl?

Being 8 games back and playing a team that constantly disrespects you;
If I was on the bench and I saw my captain get hit in the face in the 1st inning I would have rushed the mound from the dugout...

I guess when you make more $ than 99% of the world, you have little reason to get upset or angry...

We don't appear to have the type of personalities on our roster that respond in that fashion to provocation; I'm not calling them soft, that's just the way it is.

This is another form of a discussion we've had off and on over the last few months: is retaliation necessary and, if so, what form should it take?

I respect the viewpoints of others but my position is that, at times, retaliation is appropriate. It doesn't need to be done with the intention of showing who's tough and who isn't; the ego is not required here at all. It is possible to be peaceful and humble and still make a physical stand in the situation where others are taking unwarranted physical liberties with your person; hitting someone with a baseball or steamrolling your catcher unnecessarily qualify, in my view.

For those who believe the best retaliation is simply to win, point taken. However, it is possible to both win AND retaliate.

sox1970
09-17-2010, 09:23 AM
I looked at this years stats and there is not that much difference between the 1st and 2nd halfs. He is just a .500 innings eater.

Buehrle is Buehrle. The Sox are 18-12 (.600) when he starts.

19 quality starts. If he gets 3 more starts, he'll have around 210 innings.

He's a very valuable pitcher, but he's never been an ace #1 starter. He never will be. But he is very good, and at the end of the season, the numbers are there.

Red Barchetta
09-17-2010, 09:34 AM
I don't care who the pitcher is, however if your MVP/Captain/Team leader gets hit in the face by a trailing fastball, the first batter in the next inning gets hit. Brush backs are part of the game, however a fastball to the face is not. :angry:

I also wish Mauer would have been leading of the top half of the inning as well.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2010, 09:47 AM
SCCWS:

Very good point and one of the issues this team has had for at least the past few years.

They are passive and I continue to say mentally weak in some areas particularly when it involves the Twins.

Not saying it's a conscious thing, probably isn't but they need some personalities in that clubhouse who won't need to be told when it's time to take care of their own, who'll get in a teammates face if needed or won't stand for subpar performances against garbage teams over and over again.

Of all the areas the Sox need to fill this off season, I hope the area of character / heart / intensity is one of the first ones filled.

Lip

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 10:01 AM
We don't appear to have the type of personalities on our roster that respond in that fashion to provocation; I'm not calling them soft, that's just the way it is.

This is another form of a discussion we've had off and on over the last few months: is retaliation necessary and, if so, what form should it take?

I respect the viewpoints of others but my position is that, at times, retaliation is appropriate. It doesn't need to be done with the intention of showing who's tough and who isn't; the ego is not required here at all. It is possible to be peaceful and humble and still make a physical stand in the situation where others are taking unwarranted physical liberties with your person; hitting someone with a baseball or steamrolling your catcher unnecessarily qualify, in my view.

For those who believe the best retaliation is simply to win, point taken. However, it is possible to both win AND retaliate.

:bandance:

That's exactly the point. Thank you.

I don't care who the pitcher is, however if your MVP/Captain/Team leader gets hit in the face by a trailing fastball, the first batter in the next inning gets hit. Brush backs are part of the game, however a fastball to the face is not. :angry:

I also wish Mauer would have been leading of the top half of the inning as well.

How about both? If Buehrle hits only one Twin, save it for Mauer. Even after hitting the lead-off hitter, I wish that later the Sox made Mauer dust his backside off.

The Twins are the better team. Fine. And they won the games, the most important beating. But they didn't stop there. I think too that it started with their attitude of "we're going to knock the (feces) out of the Sox every chance we get" and the Sox sitting back and taking it, meekly.

I don't ever want the Sox to be a dirty, cheap shot team but I don't want them to either be meek, submissive weaklings. At some point you have to stand up to a bully.

PorkChopExpress
09-17-2010, 10:16 AM
I don't ever want the Sox to be a dirty, cheap shot team but I don't want them to either be meek, submissive weaklings. At some point you have to stand up to a bully.

Makes me think of a good Kenny Rogers song - "I promised you, Dad, not to do the things you've done. I've walked away from trouble when I can. Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek, and Papa, I sure hope you understand. Sometimes you've got to fight when you're a man."

Dan H
09-17-2010, 10:16 AM
Usually I don't believe in the retaliation thing, but there are exeptions. Konerko did answer by hitting the next pitch he saw deep into the seats. But, whether this beaning was intentional or not, that pitch was reckless. Somebody on the Twins, probably one of their better hitters, should have been hit or at least brushed back. I don't want head hunting, but I don't see how the White Sox could be that passive when their best player got in the face. And didn't Konerko homer off of Pavano in Minnesota back in July?

The Sox need to make big changes in the off season. It is time to trade Buehrle. He is a player who can bring something in return. I love what he has done for the club, but the Sox need to go in a different direction. The team should explore what he would bring in return.

beasly213
09-17-2010, 10:20 AM
Usually I don't believe in the retaliation thing, but there are exeptions. Konerko did answer by hitting the next pitch he saw deep into the seats. But, whether this beaning was intentional or not, that pitch was reckless. Somebody on the Twins, probably one of their better hitters, should have been hit or at least brushed back. I don't want head hunting, but I don't see how the White Sox could be that passive when their best player got in the face. And didn't Konerko homer off of Pavano in Minnesota back in July?

The Sox need to make big changes in the off season. It is time to trade Buehrle. He is a player who can bring something in return. I love what he has done for the club, but the Sox need to go in a different direction. The team should explore what he would bring in return.


Doesn't Buehrle have a no trade clause that has kicked in?

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 10:22 AM
Doesn't Buehrle have a no trade clause that has kicked in?

To the Cardinals for Colby Rasmus.

Noneck
09-17-2010, 10:24 AM
It is time to trade Buehrle. He is a player who can bring something in return. I love what he has done for the club, but the Sox need to go in a different direction. The team should explore what he would bring in return.

At 14M next year, his return may be a negative return. And he does have a full no trade clause.

Dan H
09-17-2010, 10:26 AM
Doesn't Buehrle have a no trade clause that has kicked in?

He probably does, but things can be worked out.

I didn't see the whole game and wasn't aware that Buehrle hit Cuddyer in the next inning. I guess people are disappointed that he had to be told to do this?

Otherwise, I have been a little disappointed in Buehrle's overall performance this year. And I think this team has some serious issues, and he is one of them. As I wrote, the option of trading him should be at least explored. I wouldn't give him away as he still provides a great deal of stability to the rotation. But this has been a disappionting season, and big changes need to be made and that may include Buehrle.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 10:40 AM
You mean getting older?

On top of that, Buehrle has mentioned that he's not into off-season conditioning as much as the coaching staff would like.

MetroPD
09-17-2010, 10:40 AM
:bandance:

That's exactly the point. Thank you.



How about both? If Buehrle hits only one Twin, save it for Mauer. Even after hitting the lead-off hitter, I wish that later the Sox made Mauer dust his backside off.

The Twins are the better team. Fine. And they won the games, the most important beating. But they didn't stop there. I think too that it started with their attitude of "we're going to knock the (feces) out of the Sox every chance we get" and the Sox sitting back and taking it, meekly.

I don't ever want the Sox to be a dirty, cheap shot team but I don't want them to either be meek, submissive weaklings. At some point you have to stand up to a bully.
excellent post, this is what reasonable people who understand a highly competitive sport with type a personalities are the norm. There is a psychological effect in the games, we witnessed it all this year versus the Twins.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 10:40 AM
At 14M next year, his return may be a negative return. And he does have a full no trade clause.

And on top of that, if he gets traded, his contract automatically extends another year for like $16.5 M.

Ain't gonna happen.

Noneck
09-17-2010, 11:06 AM
And on top of that, if he gets traded, his contract automatically extends another year for like $16.5 M.

Ain't gonna happen.

Excellent point which I forgot.

khan
09-17-2010, 11:18 AM
Though, on the subject of Mark, I'd like to see the White Sox shut him down. Get him on his offseason program sooner -- more rest for his arm.

Agreed. There is nothing to gain by exposing Buehlre to more wear and tear. The 2010 season is lost.

Let's see if Torres and/or Harrell have ANYTHING to offer. The stupid $8.5M to Jackson and the loss of Dan Hudson may mean that one or BOTH will have to be in the team.

Rikirk
09-17-2010, 11:21 AM
Buehrle is aging and his arm is slowing down a bit, yeah he aint what he used to be...but I like the guy.
I really hope he finishes his career here.
He aint that bad.

balke
09-17-2010, 11:35 AM
This issue has gotten blown up pretty big about hitting players... its not as bad as it used to be with Manuel.

The Sox had to play it smart while in the chase - and now they are out of it officially. Detroit might have forgotten they still have to play the Sox again. I'm pretty sure there will be some fines coming for Ozzie soon.

I'm of the opinion it seems like a bigger deal cause Quentin likes to get hit so he's on base. I would've rather see the team win than gotten a starter suspended - especially with Garcia and the bullpen in bad shape.

Now the Sox have a lot of pitchers who throw upper 90's with nothing left to play for. If Sox fans really are concerned about plunkings - I'm guessing it starts tonight.

Second note: Buehrle is not the problem. The Twins are the problem. They won more than the Sox lost IMO. /tips cap and moves on.

veeter
09-17-2010, 11:41 AM
Maybe Buehrle thinks -- as many reasonable people agree -- that the best way to retaliate is to win. But, hey, just throwing it out there.

AND CHICAGO TOUGH.I agree. The next play after hitting Cuddyer, Alexei misplays Delmon Young's grounder. Only the Sox. I don't advocate fighting either, BUT the 2000 brawl with Detroit felt right. The Sox had had enough, and the bad blood boiled over. The Sox really gelled after that. They showed they were a team. This version looks like a bunch of union brothers having a game of nine man. However, Minnesota didn't get the union memo, and have unmercifully ****ed with the Sox, to the tune of a 13-5 record. The Sox right now, make me sick.

hawkjt
09-17-2010, 11:42 AM
I am not disapointed in MB, just wish he had said ''no comment'' and left it at that. It seems like he is trying to dodge any possible blame for something that he knows he had to do. Even the Twins knew he had to do it. When he went up and in on Thome later, then walking Thome, when the inning was over, Thome circled third on a caught fly ball and went right by MB on the way to the Twins dugout , MB slapped him on the butt with his glove...no hard feelings.

This is not a testosterone kind of deal really, it is just business, and the Sox let it fester for too long. Should have hit someone on the Twins and other teams a few more times earlier in the season, no big deal.

veeter
09-17-2010, 11:46 AM
I am not disapointed in MB, just wish he had said ''no comment'' and left it at that. It seems like he is trying to dodge any possible blame for something that he knows he had to do. Even the Twins knew he had to do it. When he went up and in on Thome later, then walking Thome, when the inning was over, Thome circled third on a caught fly ball and went right by MB on the way to the Twins dugout , MB slapped him on the butt with his glove...no hard feelings.

This is not a testosterone kind of deal really, it is just business, and the Sox let it fester for too long. Should have hit someone on the Twins and other teams a few more times earlier in the season, no big deal.The pitch to Thome was a breaking ball. To which Thome actually looked out at Mark for. I couldn't believe it. This whole season as been Minny can hit the Sox, but the Sox better not do anything in return. And the Sox didn't.

DickAllen72
09-17-2010, 04:33 PM
"When I'm told to do something I try to go out there and do it to the best of my ability," Buehrle said. "Obviously you got to protect your guys"


He should have either said nothing, or said, "It slipped", or said, "I didn't mean to hit Cuddeyer just as Pavano didn't mean to hit Konerko." But you never admit you did it on purpose. The Sox under Ozzie still haven't learned how to handle this type of thing.

DickAllen72
09-17-2010, 04:33 PM
The pitch to Thome was a breaking ball. To which Thome actually looked out at Mark for. I couldn't believe it. This whole season as been Minny can hit the Sox, but the Sox better not do anything in return. And the Sox didn't.
Sad but true.

DickAllen72
09-17-2010, 04:53 PM
Maybe Buehrle thinks -- as many reasonable people agree -- that the best way to retaliate is to win. But, hey, just throwing it out there.


(Heavy sigh)

Oh please, stop with the tired old cliche already. You don't win games to retaliate against dirty plays you win games for the sake of winning games. That's the objective of playing baseball--win the game.

You don't try less hard to win the game because the other team is playing a good clean game against you and keeping all the rules. You don't decide to try to win the game only after a guy on the opposing team punches you in the face or beans some of your hitters.

I know using the tired cliche may make you seem like you are above it all but it's just naive. The best way to stop another team from continually throwing at your hitters is to throw back at some of theirs. The best way to stop a guy from punching your catcher is to either hit him the next time he's up, or start bowling over their middle infielders every chance you get.

happydude
09-17-2010, 05:30 PM
(Heavy sigh)

Oh please, stop with the tired old cliche already. You don't win games to retaliate against dirty plays you win games for the sake of winning games. That's the objective of playing baseball--win the game.

You don't try less hard to win the game because the other team is playing a good clean game against you and keeping all the rules. You don't decide to try to win the game only after a guy on the opposing team punches you in the face or beans some of your hitters.

I know using the tired cliche may make you seem like you are above it all but it's just naive. The best way to stop another team from continually throwing at your hitters is to throw back at some of theirs. The best way to stop a guy from punching your catcher is to either hit him the next time he's up, or start bowling over their middle infielders every chance you get.

I agree with this sentiment. I certainly understand the desire to keep the peace even in the face of provocation; in a better world, we would always be able to approach life in this fashion. Unfortunately, we are all at various stages of development when it comes to human interaction and some to whom you turn the other cheek will simply elect to strike you in that one, too.

In short, sometimes you just gotta put your foot up someone's ass. The fewer times the better, of course; but, still, it should not be avoided at all costs.

MetroPD
09-18-2010, 06:17 PM
We needed this guy up there

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jim-parque-hgh.jpg

SI1020
09-18-2010, 06:25 PM
We needed this guy up there

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jim-parque-hgh.jpg I like his attitude even better.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quodrys.shtml