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View Full Version : *Official* 9/15 "This is how the season ends, not with a bang but with a whimper"


WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 11:21 PM
If it didn't end last night, it ended now.

delben91
09-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Glad I didn't watch that. At what point do we start seeing regular doses of Morel, Viciedo, etc?

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Good thread title. This week has been pretty sickening.

LongLiveFisk
09-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Glad I missed it tonight too.

And I think it's 9/15 but who cares....

KRS1
09-15-2010, 11:25 PM
This team is gutless.

soxlady8
09-15-2010, 11:26 PM
great title !

I have been sitting here at the computer making up tests for my middle schoolers and I heard some fireworks outside. I turned it off in the bottom of the 8th. With those fireworks, I had a small glimmer of hope -- OMG they pulled it off !! NOPE -- just a Wednesday night fireworks show over there at the CEll (was it for Mexican Independence ?).

They just are a way better team ... that is the reality.
It is a reality that I just don't like.

Tragg
09-15-2010, 11:28 PM
Isn't it about time to start playing Morel, Viciedo and Flowers on a regular basis?

kittle42
09-15-2010, 11:28 PM
This team is gutless.

"Gutless" and other such "Chicago tough" phrases and thinking is what got this team where it is today.

Of all major sports, I find baseball the hardest for a team to be "gutless" at, anyway.

It's meaningless.

delben91
09-15-2010, 11:28 PM
This team is gutless.

That's the one thing I won't accuse this Sox team of. Not talented enough? Sure. Underperforming? Sure. But after years of seeing teams that just seemed to fold up tent the minute they fell behind, I can say this team surely isn't gutless.

1989
09-15-2010, 11:28 PM
The twins were 6-10 with RISP whereas the Sox were 2-13. That's the game right there in a nutshell. The key to beating these guys is scoring when there are men in scoring position, it's that simple.

SoxSpeed22
09-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Yes. It's 9/15. Wouldn't have watched it, even if I could. If they want to keep pulling their pants down and bending over for the Twins, that won't be my problem for the rest of the season.
I'm all up for the young guys too. I would rather see a brawl and take them with us, beats the hell out of what's been going on lately.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Isn't it about time to start playing Morel, Viciedo and Flowers on a regular basis?

I think it is certainly time for Morel to get some consistent playing time. I think Flowers would just confirm he's a lousy catcher and Viciedo at first might only drive up Konerko's value.

doublem23
09-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Oh boy I'm sure excited I paid to sit through 2 more of these funeral marches in person!!!

palehozenychicty
09-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Play the young guys now. **** Teahen and Kotsay, etc.

KRS1
09-15-2010, 11:30 PM
That's the one thing I won't accuse this Sox team of. Not talented enough? Sure. Underperforming? Sure. But after years of seeing teams that just seemed to fold up tent the minute they fell behind, I can say this team surely isn't gutless.

Can't come through in the clutch, falling apart in the clutch. They lack "nails" in their performance more than they lack actual talent.

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:33 PM
Oh boy I'm sure excited I paid to sit through 2 more of these funeral marches in person!!!

Yeah. I know I should be happy since I get to see them a few more times, etc. etc. But I'm really not. I'm just going for the churros.

Tragg
09-15-2010, 11:36 PM
I think it is certainly time for Morel to get some consistent playing time. I think Flowers would just confirm he's a lousy catcher and Viciedo at first might only drive up Konerko's value.

Well you get to hit against some soft pitchers this time of year, so I'd chance it and try to up Flowers and Viciedo's value by playing them.

But we'll probably see a regular diet of Kotsay and Teahen.

skutir
09-15-2010, 11:37 PM
Just FYI, it's the 15th and "Whimper" has an H in it.

Viva Medias B's
09-15-2010, 11:39 PM
I've been to 15-20 games so far this year as part of my split season ticket plan, and this was the first game I attened all year in which the Sox lost. This includes games in April and May when we were losing a lot. There were games on my ticket plan the Sox lost, but those were games when someone else used my tickets because I could not go.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 11:39 PM
Just FYI, it's the 15th and "Whimper" has an H in it.

Dammit.

chisoxfanatic
09-15-2010, 11:40 PM
Oh boy I'm sure excited I paid to sit through 2 more of these funeral marches in person!!!
I don't envy you...My next sporting event will be the Blackhawks' home opener (hopefully)...It's quite a bite if you did pay money for any of the last 11 home games of the season.

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:40 PM
Dammit.

And you're an English major, too!!

(So am I and I didn't notice, haha)

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 11:41 PM
And you're an English major, too!!

(So am I and I didn't notice, haha)

Spelling never has been and never will be one of my strong points. Nor will date recognition. I didn't recognize it was my birthday this year until I got a call from my mom.

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:42 PM
Spelling never has been and never will be one of my strong points. Nor will date recognition. I didn't recognize it was my birthday this year until I got a call from my mom.

It's in your username, no? Lulz.

Anyway, this game. I think we've gotten the losing out of our system. I really think we can win tomorrow and salvage what's left of our dignity.

Floyd got out of jams early on, but I guess it couldn't last.

southsideirish71
09-15-2010, 11:43 PM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

chisoxfanatic
09-15-2010, 11:44 PM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.
What's the point now? It's not like we have any games left with playoff implications for either party.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 11:44 PM
It's in your username, no? Lulz.

Anyway, this game. I think we've gotten the losing out of our system. I really think we can win tomorrow and salvage what's left of our dignity.

Floyd got out of jams early on, but I guess it couldn't last.

It is, but I didn't log on until late that day and for some reason my birthday doesn't show up on the thing.

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:44 PM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

That's a shame, I'd like to see the kids play during some of the final games. It's always fun watching a pitcher make his debut.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-15-2010, 11:46 PM
This was the last game?

JB98
09-15-2010, 11:50 PM
That's a shame, I'd like to see the kids play during some of the final games. It's always fun watching a pitcher make his debut.

The Sox don't have any young pitchers to throw, though.

They should be playing Morel at 3B the rest of the year. The organization needs a long-term answer at that position. Need to start finding out whether Morel is that guy.

GoGoCrede
09-15-2010, 11:55 PM
This was the last game?

What?

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 11:58 PM
The twins were 6-10 with RISP whereas the Sox were 2-13. That's the game right there in a nutshell. The key to beating these guys is scoring when there are men in scoring position, it's that simple.

That's been the story of the season, outside the hot streak.

It would be funny to see the Twins spot the Sox bases loaded in every inning tomorrow.

Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

I figured that's what Guillen would say and probably do. I think putting Morel at 3rd probably gives the team a better chance at winning.

happydude
09-16-2010, 12:01 AM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

It won't be a surprise if it plays out that way. Ozzie realizes he's going to be harshly criticized in the offseason for the Thome situation, minimally; he's been extremely defensive about it whenever the subject's been broached. He may feel as if he can save a little face if the team can get to the 90 win mark; it will allow him to argue that, in most years, we would have won the division with that many wins and thereby somewhat validate his performance this season. Playing kids may be inconsistent with that scenario.

tdwiek
09-16-2010, 12:14 AM
I saw that the score was 9-3 again and I thought maybe mlb.com didn't refresh from Tuesday. It's like Groundhog day, but even Bill Murray would be a better sight right now than Ozzie....

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:18 AM
This team is gutless.

I've been saying that for a decade when they play the Twins in August and September. The Twins are better but not much. They will win the division again and do what they do best. Get smoked by an AL East team.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:18 AM
What?The title of the thread makes it sure sound like it was...

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:20 AM
The twins were 6-10 with RISP whereas the Sox were 2-13. That's the game right there in a nutshell. The key to beating these guys is scoring when there are men in scoring position, it's that simple.

Or last night. The difference between the 2 teams is the Sox can't score with bases loaded in the bottom of the 6th and the next half inning the Twins get them loaded and take advantage.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:20 AM
Play the young guys now. **** Teahen and Kotsay, etc.
I have not seen either of them in awhile now.

GoGoCrede
09-16-2010, 12:21 AM
The title of the thread makes it sure sound like it was...

Surely you knew what he meant by the season being over, no?

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:24 AM
The Sox don't have any young pitchers to throw, though.

They should be playing Morel at 3B the rest of the year. The organization needs a long-term answer at that position. Need to start finding out whether Morel is that guy.

What? I thought the long term answer was Teahan? No?

Thanks, Kenny, for jumping the gun on another KC reject.

Tragg
09-16-2010, 12:25 AM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

That's the way he's operated his entire tenure. Myers pitched while Gio sat. Just another example of what a poor developer of talent Ozzie Guillen is.
And Williams is ratifying this behavior.
It's ridiculous.

VMSNS
09-16-2010, 12:27 AM
Didn't watch the game, and I'm glad I couldn't. The Sox just can't get that clutch hit. Our pitchers are always vulnerable to "that one big inning" and mentally fold after they get roughed up a little bit. The team collapses in pressure situations. It's unfortunate because I think, for the most part, the talent is there. They are just under-performing and seem like they lack any kind of killer instinct. In my experience with competitive sports and activities, this is, most of the time, a coaching issue.

Morel needs to play 3B everyday. There really is no excuse to not have him out there, and I think Ozzie is a fool if he chooses to play Vizquel or Teahen regularly over Morel.

Andy T Clown
09-16-2010, 12:31 AM
Let the "tragic number" countdown begin. I don't think it will take much to make this a great team, should be an interesting off season. I hope Paulie and AJ are back.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:32 AM
Surely you knew what he meant by the season being over, no?Sounds like he was trying to say the Sox have given up, and probably will vote the Sox will win 3-5 in that "So, How Do They Play Out the String? " thread.

captain54
09-16-2010, 12:34 AM
thank God there have been no posts so far about how lucky Sox fans are to be watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and how there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us , blah blah blah

The White Sox have been totally and completed embarrassed this year by the Minnesota Twins...I don't find that very gratifying....

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:35 AM
Didn't watch the game, and I'm glad I couldn't. The Sox just can't get that clutch hit. Our pitchers are always vulnerable to "that one big inning" and mentally fold after they get roughed up a little bit. The team collapses in pressure situations. It's unfortunate because I think, for the most part, the talent is there. They are just under-performing and seem like they lack any kind of killer instinct. In my experience with competitive sports and activities, this is, most of the time, a coaching issue.

Morel needs to play 3B everyday. There really is no excuse to not have him out there, and I think Ozzie is a fool if he chooses to play Vizquel or Teahen regularly over Morel.

And this is just not this year, it has been going on for too many years.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:37 AM
Sox fans are watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us. Just look at the Cubs. I'm sure they would be dying to have a chance at 90 wins. There is a lot more to look forward to for this team considering they could have finished way under .500. The future looks a lot less bleak when you have a winning season with signs of progress. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:38 AM
Sox fans are watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us. Just look at the Cubs. I'm sure they would be dying to have a chance at 90 wins. There is a lot more to look forward to for this team considering they could have finished way under .500. The future looks a lot less bleak when you have a winning season with signs of progress. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I agree with you. I said too some buddies that it could've been worse. We could've been Cub fans this year. And with a little tweeking, this team can be playing October ball next year. If KW can only rid of the contract he gave Teahan...

slavko
09-16-2010, 12:40 AM
Sox fans are watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us. Just look at the Cubs. I'm sure they would be dying to have a chance at 90 wins. There is a lot more to look forward to for this team considering they could have finished way under .500. The future looks a lot less bleak when you have a winning season with signs of progress. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Those guys presently wailing on us have a winninger season with more signs of progress, a useful farm system and a new-found revenue stream.

Nellie_Fox
09-16-2010, 12:44 AM
Those guys presently wailing on us have a winninger season...They have a WHAT???

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:46 AM
Those guys presently wailing on us have a winninger season with more signs of progress, a useful farm system and a new-found revenue stream.If the Sox can resign their players of importance, and get a DH, and 3B... then the Sox will be contending for the division, and wild card, and will roll through the playoffs. If KW spends extra money next year, with this core of a team, the Sox can be GREAT. Losing Peavy, bullpen players and Freddy's injuries didn't help the end of our season... The pitching is set if we could just get one more bullpen arm. (which could be Sale).

The Twins could be in third place next year, YOU NEVER KNOW, this is baseball. All I know is the Sox have a few decent players that started poorly. If Beckham, Peavy, Floyd, Alexei, and Pierre can get rolling to start next season, the Sox could be looking at 95 wins.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:46 AM
They have a WHAT???

Thinking the same thing and who is he talking about??? :scratch::scratch::scratch:

captain54
09-16-2010, 12:47 AM
Sox fans are watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us. Just look at the Cubs. I'm sure they would be dying to have a chance at 90 wins. There is a lot more to look forward to for this team considering they could have finished way under .500. The future looks a lot less bleak when you have a winning season with signs of progress. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Other than the two month run and the brief run around the time the Sox picked up Manny, this season has been torture..too many bullpen implosions, a miserable start, coughing up first place in August and ending up now 8 games back, missed offensive opportunities by the bountiful, inconsistent starting pitching, no late inning comebacks and Mark Teahan

I wouldn't cash in those 90 wins yet if I were you....

What signs of progress do you see that is gonna make 2011 dramatically different than 2010?

Frankfan4life
09-16-2010, 12:47 AM
What is everyone complaining about? I actually had fun tonight. The weather was great, the crowd was great and the fireworks were great. I eventually just accepted that the game stunk and just started enjoying the atmosphere.

Around the seventh inning, me and my friend were hoping that the Sox wouldn't get beat worse than they did yesterday and then we were hoping that they would match yesterday's score. At least the Sox did not let us down.

russ99
09-16-2010, 12:50 AM
It won't be a surprise if it plays out that way. Ozzie realizes he's going to be harshly criticized in the offseason for the Thome situation, minimally; he's been extremely defensive about it whenever the subject's been broached. He may feel as if he can save a little face if the team can get to the 90 win mark; it will allow him to argue that, in most years, we would have won the division with that many wins and thereby somewhat validate his performance this season. Playing kids may be inconsistent with that scenario.

How has Ozzie been defensive about Thome? Telling everyone to blame him about it isn't being defensive, that's broaching the subject head on.

And what's the difference between 87 wins and 90 wins. It's still the mark of a good team. No "saving face" is needed here. Those who can't recognize that are out to push an agenda.

I'd love to see Morel in starting tomorrow, but not to play the kids or throw in the towel, it's cause Omar looked 42 today.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:54 AM
What signs of progress do you see that is gonna make 2011 dramatically different than 2010?-Rios didn't have a 2009
-Beckham erupted out of his slump
-PK wasn't on a career decline
-Pierre ended the season GREAT, with likely over 60SBs w/ decent batting average
-Jackson looked very solid in all but one of his starts
-Sale
-Santos
-Alexei's defense
-Peavy will be back, regardless of his injury, he knows how to pitch
-Viciedo, with help, could be a viable bat after the all-star break
-Quentin still can drive in runs, if he gained any consistency, he could carry the team by himself

There is a lot to look forward to. A good DH and a 3B could easily propel this team to a playoff birth. The terrible start to this season is what is stopping us from going this year. Just imagine is they got Beltre... I think I could almost live with Jonsay.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:55 AM
Other than the two month run and the brief run around the time the Sox picked up Manny, this season has been torture..too many bullpen implosions, a miserable start, coughing up first place in August and ending up now 8 games back, missed offensive opportunities by the bountiful, inconsistent starting pitching, no late inning comebacks and Mark Teahan

I wouldn't cash in those 90 wins yet if I were you....

What signs of progress do you see that is gonna make 2011 dramatically different than 2010?

Chris Sale, Beckham adjusting to his first long slump to become a better hitter, Rios having a nice season, Sergio Santis, Coop figuring out Edwin Jackson and possibly Oz and KW knowing that they need more pop from 3rd... Beltre?... and some more pop from the outfield. At least that is what I hope for from the 2011 team.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:56 AM
-Rios didn't have a 2009
-Beckham erupted out of his slump
-PK wasn't on a career decline
-Pierre ended the season GREAT, with likely over 60SBs w/ decent batting average
-Jackson looked very solid in all but one of his starts
-Sale
-Santos
-Alexei's defense
-Peavy will be back, regardless of his injury, he knows how to pitch
-Viciedo, with help, could be a viable bat after the all-star break
-Quentin still can drive in runs, if he gained any consistency, he could carry the team by himself

There is a lot to look forward to. A good DH and a 3B could easily propel this team to a playoff birth. The terrible start to this season is what is stopping us from going this year.


Wow, we are on the same page except PK is not a lock.

captain54
09-16-2010, 12:56 AM
And what's the difference between 87 wins and 90 wins. It's still the mark of a good team..

Its the mark of a team that has yet again enabled their primary division foe to take first place...its getting very old

Dub25
09-16-2010, 12:57 AM
What is everyone complaining about? I actually had fun tonight. The weather was great, the crowd was great and the fireworks were great. I eventually just accepted that the game stunk and just started enjoying the atmosphere.

Around the seventh inning, me and my friend were hoping that the Sox wouldn't get beat worse than they did yesterday and then we were hoping that they would match yesterday's score. At least the Sox did not let us down.

Check out my post. I'm thinking the same thing as the baseball season ends.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-16-2010, 12:59 AM
Wow, we are on the same page except PK is not a lock.Yea, but that whole post was focused on if we bring everyone back. If we lost PK, it would take more than just a 3B and DH. 85RBIs out of Konerko and his defense would be well worth resigning him, even if he goes on some sort of decline.

captain54
09-16-2010, 01:00 AM
-Rios didn't have a 2009
-Beckham erupted out of his slump
-PK wasn't on a career decline
-Pierre ended the season GREAT, with likely over 60SBs w/ decent batting average
-Jackson looked very solid in all but one of his starts
-Sale
-Santos
-Alexei's defense
-Peavy will be back, regardless of his injury, he knows how to pitch
-Viciedo, with help, could be a viable bat after the all-star break
-Quentin still can drive in runs, if he gained any consistency, he could carry the team by himself

There is a lot to look forward to. A good DH and a 3B could easily propel this team to a playoff birth. The terrible start to this season is what is stopping us from going this year. Just imagine is they got Beltre... I think I could almost live with Jonsay.


I'm with you on Beckham, Rios, Jackson, Sale and Ramirez...other than that, you'd have to be realistic and there's an awful lot of work to do..no guarantees on Quentin, Konerko, Peavy, Viciedo, Pierre and Santo...

Dub25
09-16-2010, 01:02 AM
Yea, but that whole post was focused on if we bring everyone back. If we lost PK, it would take more than just a 3B and DH. 85RBIs out of Konerko and his defense would be well worth resigning him, even if he goes on some sort of decline.

I agree. PK should be brought back for something like a 2yr deal with a club option on the 3rd. His D is still solid, the only thing I worry about is one of those long slumps that he has seemed to avoided this year.

Dub25
09-16-2010, 01:02 AM
I'm with you on Beckham, Rios, Jackson, Sale and Ramirez...other than that, you'd have to be realistic and there's an awful lot of work to do..no guarantees on Quentin, Konerko, Peavy, Viciedo, Pierre and Santo...

I dont think the work is as bad as we think it is.

kittle42
09-16-2010, 01:12 AM
Well according to Mark Gonzales of the Trib, Ozzie isn't going to play the kids. He wants to win as many games as possible. He may play a kid here or there, but nothing more than that.

Hide your kids, hide your wives. Hide your kids, hide your wives. And hide your husbands, cuz Ozzie's being a doof.

kittle42
09-16-2010, 01:13 AM
This was the last game?

Actually, yesterday was.

kittle42
09-16-2010, 01:14 AM
thank God there have been no posts so far about how lucky Sox fans are to be watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and how there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us , blah blah blah

The White Sox have been totally and completed embarrassed this year by the Minnesota Twins...I don't find that very gratifying....

But, but, but....meaningful September games!

GoGoCrede
09-16-2010, 01:15 AM
Actually, yesterday was.

You could make a case for last weekend, too. :whiner:

hi im skot
09-16-2010, 01:31 AM
Hide your kids, hide your wives. Hide your kids, hide your wives. And hide your husbands, cuz Ozzie's being a doof.

potw

1989
09-16-2010, 01:35 AM
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you" - Woody Hayes

hi im skot
09-16-2010, 01:50 AM
Here Lies the 2010 White Sox (http://www.southsidesox.com/2010/9/14/1689737/here-lies-the-2010-white-sox)


April 5th, 2010 - September 14th, 2010

The Chicago White Sox (Palehose, Good Guys) passed on September 14th at U.S. Cellular Field with 29,223 of their fans and, of course, the Minnesota Twins at their bedside.


They are survived by their architects, Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen, and were preceded in death by the Designated Hitter and Logic.

CubsfansareDRUNK
09-16-2010, 01:56 AM
Now we're just bleeding out :angry:

GoGoCrede
09-16-2010, 02:00 AM
Here Lies the 2010 White Sox (http://www.southsidesox.com/2010/9/14/1689737/here-lies-the-2010-white-sox)

:rolling:

TheCommander
09-16-2010, 02:11 AM
White Sox Baseball-The Kids Can Play!

:ozzie
"Not under my ****ing watch!"

happydude
09-16-2010, 02:49 AM
How has Ozzie been defensive about Thome? Telling everyone to blame him about it isn't being defensive, that's broaching the subject head on.

And what's the difference between 87 wins and 90 wins. It's still the mark of a good team. No "saving face" is needed here. Those who can't recognize that are out to push an agenda.

I'd love to see Morel in starting tomorrow, but not to play the kids or throw in the towel, it's cause Omar looked 42 today.

Yes, he said "blame me". He then followed that comment by telling his critics to **** off, pointing out that the Sox finished 3rd in every year Thome was here except 1, and by, once again, mentioning how he had only one year left on his contract. In my view, that type of response is appropriately characterized as defensive. There was certainly no need for the not-so-subtle dig at Thome.

What's the difference between 87 and 90 wins? By analogy, what's the difference between 18 wins from a starting pitcher and 20? Between 2,994 hits and 3,000? The difference is that numbers are benchmarks and a 90 win season sounds and looks a lot better than an 87 win season. Now that the season's a lost cause in terms of making the playoffs, individuals will look to meet individual goals and the manager will look to meet the only quantifiable goal left for him.

FWIW, I have no "agenda" to push, certainly not the one you imply; in fact, I am a silent Guillen supporter and have no wish to participate in the running tit for tat between Guillen backers and their oppononents. That being said, his "blame me's" are often, I feel, disingenuous. As are his comments about not caring what people think. He's clearly a very thin skinned man who longs to be recognized as a top shelf manager and threatens to take his ball and go home whenever his self image is threatened by criticism. My guess is there are few who care more about what others think than Ozzie.

SI1020
09-16-2010, 08:13 AM
That's the way he's operated his entire tenure. Myers pitched while Gio sat. Just another example of what a poor developer of talent Ozzie Guillen is.
And Williams is ratifying this behavior.
It's ridiculous. Don't you know that no changes are necessary and if you think otherwise something is wrong with you?

chisoxfanatic
09-16-2010, 08:50 AM
The White Sox have been totally and completed embarrassed this year by the Minnesota Twins...I don't find that very gratifying....
The Sox have embarrassed themselves.

asindc
09-16-2010, 09:36 AM
Other than the two month run and the brief run around the time the Sox picked up Manny, this season has been torture..too many bullpen implosions, a miserable start, coughing up first place in August and ending up now 8 games back, missed offensive opportunities by the bountiful, inconsistent starting pitching, no late inning comebacks and Mark Teahan

I wouldn't cash in those 90 wins yet if I were you....

What signs of progress do you see that is gonna make 2011 dramatically different than 2010?

Ok, I'll bite. The same signs of progress from 2009 to 2010, Teahen and Kotsay notwithstanding. What signs of progress you ask? They should be obvious by now, but in case they are not:

Rios > Wise/Anderson
Pierre > Podsednik
2010 Alexei > 2009 Alexei
Omar > Fields
2010 Quentin > 2009 Quentin
Freddy > Colon
Peavy > Contreras
Putz > MacDougal
Jones > Betemit

I think you will agree that this season is dramatically different from last season.

asindc
09-16-2010, 09:37 AM
thank God there have been no posts so far about how lucky Sox fans are to be watching somewhat meaningful games in September, and how there are a lot of other teams that would trade places with us , blah blah blah

The White Sox have been totally and completed embarrassed this year by the Minnesota Twins...I don't find that very gratifying....

No Sox fan does.

hawkjt
09-16-2010, 10:31 AM
You know that ''baseball rythmn'' that Hawk always talks about? The Twins have had it the whole second half...ouch.
You watch these games,and you could swear that the twins just are pooping golden nuggets these days...all the infield dribbler hits,backed up by solid hits that drive them in.
Mauer has two types of contact now...the just off center contact that ends up in a wobbly liner that drops in ,or solid contact that goes to the wall or over it...I guess that is just good hitting,but he seems to shank more hits than most guy's total hits.

Deju vu,no doubt. Gavin and Danks came out fine, kept it clean,while the Sox load up the bases early, blow opportunities,and then in the 5th the twins start getting guys on base,and both Gavin and Danks fold their tents. I am not blaming them anymore than the Sox hitters who have left their clutchness at home this week. Sox just needed one big blow each nite with the sacks packed and they could win both games,but nada.

That said, this Cowley-inspired talk of getting rid of Carlos Quentin needs to stop. We have seen how this team does when they go for banjo hitters and let the power hitters leave,it does not work...Soxpark demands homers,and Carlos brings power. I would bet he bounces back and hits .275 with 30 and 100 next year...do not move him,Kenny.
Cowley does not like Carlos,cus he gives them no copy,and so of course now Cowley turns on him and makes him seem like Hannibal Lector or something....screw you ,Joe.

ChiSoxGal85
09-16-2010, 10:52 AM
You know that ''baseball rythmn'' that Hawk always talks about? The Twins have had it the whole second half...ouch.
You watch these games,and you could swear that the twins just are pooping golden nuggets these days...all the infield dribbler hits,backed up by solid hits that drive them in.

I have seen this in the Twins as well. The hits have been falling in for them and they're getting the breaks they need...looks an awful lot like the Sox's 2005 season. Call it rhythm, call it Lady Luck on their side, call it their stars are aligned...call it whatever you want. To me it's an intangible part of baseball that can make or break a season. And no, I'm not calling the Twins to win the WS (ugh!). It's just an observation.

Last night's game was as ugly as the other night with identical results. Floyd a little shaky, the bullpen couldn't hold 'em off, and the Sox displayed a deplorable lack of hitting with RISP. I would love to see those supposed stats that showed the Sox leading in scoring with RISP. I have a hard time believing it. :(:

areilly
09-16-2010, 11:18 AM
Ok, I'll bite. The same signs of progress from 2009 to 2010, Teahen and Kotsay notwithstanding. What signs of progress you ask? They should be obvious by now, but in case they are not:

Rios > Wise/Anderson
Pierre > Podsednik
2010 Alexei > 2009 Alexei
Omar > Fields
2010 Quentin > 2009 Quentin
Freddy > Colon
Peavy > Contreras
Putz > MacDougal
Jones > Betemit

I think you will agree that this season is dramatically different from last season.

Many of those are blips, rather than true progress. Freddy may not be back. Quentin being better this year than last isn't saying much. Pierre has been better in the field than Pods, but worse at the plate. Peavy's career could very well be over. Replacing Betemit with Jones was the equivalent of emptying a garbage can onto a pile of dog crap. Etc., etc., etc.

Now, this isn't to say the 2010 Sox weren't miles ahead of the 2009 version, but most of it became window dressing rather than strengthening the foundation.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Many of those are blips, rather than true progress. Freddy may not be back. Quentin being better this year than last isn't saying much. Pierre has been better in the field than Pods, but worse at the plate. Peavy's career could very well be over. Replacing Betemit with Jones was the equivalent of emptying a garbage can onto a pile of dog crap. Etc., etc., etc.

Now, this isn't to say the 2010 Sox weren't miles ahead of the 2009 version, but most of it became window dressing rather than strengthening the foundation.That is ridiculous speculation. Peavy is healed and will start throwing in early January. He is expected to be ready in time for spring training. Although this particular surgery hadn't been performed on a pitcher before, they expect no adverse side effects. Furthermore, the lat isn't stressed in his normal delivery. He can avoid testing it by not throwing from the side, which he normally doesn't do. This isn't like a shoulder surgery. There is a possibility he isn't the same pitcher, but everyone involved has said there is no reason to believe that at this point. Never once has anyone said he won't be able to pitch again.

SI1020
09-16-2010, 12:24 PM
That is ridiculous speculation. Peavy is healed and will start throwing in early January. He is expected to be ready in time for spring training. Although this particular surgery hadn't been performed on a pitcher before, they expect no adverse side effects. Furthermore, the lat isn't stressed in his normal delivery. He can avoid testing it by not throwing from the side, which he normally doesn't do. This isn't like a shoulder surgery. There is a possibility he isn't the same pitcher, but everyone involved has said there is no reason to believe that at this point. Never once has anyone said he won't be able to pitch again. It was called ridiculous speculation when some of us suggested that Peavy was hurting before he actually tore his latissimus dorsi. It's quite possible, given the rarity and the severity of the injury that Peavy will never be the same pitcher again. I would not be counting on him for much of anything next year. If things work out, and maybe they will, great. I just wouldn't bet on it.

ChiSoxGirl
09-16-2010, 12:33 PM
Here Lies the 2010 White Sox (http://www.southsidesox.com/2010/9/14/1689737/here-lies-the-2010-white-sox)

I don't know why, because it's sad and unfortunate, but I laughed out loud at this.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2010, 12:41 PM
It was called ridiculous speculation when some of us suggested that Peavy was hurting before he actually tore his latissimus dorsi. It's quite possible, given the rarity and the severity of the injury that Peavy will never be the same pitcher again. I would not be counting on him for much of anything next year. If things work out, and maybe they will, great. I just wouldn't bet on it.Broken clock, blind squirrel, etc. I am not saying Peavy is going to come back and pitch as well as ever, though I believe he will from what I have read from the team and an orthopaedic surgeon I spoke with. People were playing doctor in both cases, but the people panicking "Oh no! His elbow is hurt and he is going to need Tommy John" because he nearly missed a start (there was nothing wrong with his elbow, by the way) don't really have ground to stand on in speculating on this injury. He might never pitch again? Sure, I guess he could get hit by a bus or something, but from all indications there is no reason to believe he won't pitch again or even won't be as effective.

harwar
09-16-2010, 12:42 PM
It was called ridiculous speculation when some of us suggested that Peavy was hurting before he actually tore his latissimus dorsi. It's quite possible, given the rarity and the severity of the injury that Peavy will never be the same pitcher again. I would not be counting on him for much of anything next year. If things work out, and maybe they will, great. I just wouldn't bet on it.

I was thinking this also .. Peavy is entering unknown waters with this type of surgery, as it's the first of it's kind for a pitcher .. i think that the White Sox planned on tweaking Jake's motion when he got here and that's exactly what they did, with bad results as he got lit-up .. when he returned to his former pitching motion he was dominating once again .. then the injury .. i'd be surprised if Jake Peavy is anything more than a serviceable starter from now on ..

Smokey Burg
09-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Chisoxgirl, that was funny. Thanks

wilburaga
09-16-2010, 12:50 PM
Sometimes, when you're beaten you've got to suck it up and say it - 'Well played, Mauer'.

asindc
09-16-2010, 01:03 PM
It was called ridiculous speculation when some of us suggested that Peavy was hurting before he actually tore his latissimus dorsi. It's quite possible, given the rarity and the severity of the injury that Peavy will never be the same pitcher again. I would not be counting on him for much of anything next year. If things work out, and maybe they will, great. I just wouldn't bet on it.

No it wasn't. Nobody said that. In fact, the consensus on WSI was that he must be hurt, otherwise why would he be pitching that badly?

Dan H
09-16-2010, 01:03 PM
The Sox have embarrassed themselves.

I agree with this totally. There is no excuse for getting beaten at your home ball park in one rout after another. I have been a Sox fan for longer than I want to admit, and this is the biggest disappointment I have experienced. Maybe they should have skipped the 30-game hot streak and played crappy all year. It would have saved us some grief.

asindc
09-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Many of those are blips, rather than true progress. Freddy may not be back. Quentin being better this year than last isn't saying much. Pierre has been better in the field than Pods, but worse at the plate. Peavy's career could very well be over. Replacing Betemit with Jones was the equivalent of emptying a garbage can onto a pile of dog crap. Etc., etc., etc.

Now, this isn't to say the 2010 Sox weren't miles ahead of the 2009 version, but most of it became window dressing rather than strengthening the foundation.

My post was only in response to the notion that there was nothing to believe that 2011 will be an improvement over 2010, when several moves were made to improve 2010 over 2009. As for long-range foundational work, that is a related, but separate, question (and a valid one at that).

Jollyroger2
09-16-2010, 01:15 PM
I agree with this totally. There is no excuse for getting beaten at your home ball park in one rout after another. I have been a Sox fan for longer than I want to admit, and this is the biggest disappointment I have experienced. Maybe they should have skipped the 30-game hot streak and played crappy all year. It would have saved us some grief.

It's not just this series. I've been saying this all year and the Sox without fail continue to prove me right. They had one decent stretch of games where they looked competent. And that was against mainly subpar opposition.

Aside from that stretch, what have they done that's remotely impressive? Nothing. They've not just been beaten like dog by their main rival either. They've failed to show up in countless games against inferior competition. They've showed either a gutless lack of desire, or mental breakdowns/lackadaisacal attitude. Undisciplined hitting. Failure to hit with men in scoring position. Bad baserunning. Careless play in the field leading to errors. Pitching that falls apart, with either poor starts or blown leads & saves.

The management's in the same boat too, with having done nothing at the deadline to work on some of the areas that desperately needed attention. Seems as if management thinks failure and disgrace are acceptable.

These last two games are simply a small example of repeated poor play time and time again. It's like they haven't even been trying. Yes, they are very embarrassing.

RCWHITESOX
09-16-2010, 01:21 PM
It's not just this series. I've been saying this all year and the Sox without fail continue to prove me right. They had one decent stretch of games where they looked competent. And that was against mainly subpar opposition.

Aside from that stretch, what have they done that's remotely impressive? Nothing. They've not just been beaten like dog by their main rival either. They've failed to show up in countless games against inferior competition. They've showed either a gutless lack of desire, or mental breakdowns/lackadaisacal attitude. Undisciplined hitting. Failure to hit with men in scoring position. Bad baserunning. Careless play in the field leading to errors. Pitching that falls apart, with either poor starts or blown leads & saves.

The management's in the same boat too, with having done nothing at the deadline to work on some of the areas that desperately needed attention. Seems as if management thinks failure and disgrace are acceptable.

These last two games are simply a small example of repeated poor play time and time again. It's like they haven't even been trying. Yes, they are very embarrassing.

You hit all the nails on the head. As Roy Oribsons song says Its Over its over its OVER!!!

SI1020
09-16-2010, 01:53 PM
Broken clock, blind squirrel, etc. I am not saying Peavy is going to come back and pitch as well as ever, though I believe he will from what I have read from the team and an orthopaedic surgeon I spoke with. People were playing doctor in both cases, but the people panicking "Oh no! His elbow is hurt and he is going to need Tommy John" because he nearly missed a start (there was nothing wrong with his elbow, by the way) don't really have ground to stand on in speculating on this injury. He might never pitch again? Sure, I guess he could get hit by a bus or something, but from all indications there is no reason to believe he won't pitch again or even won't be as effective. Really? Peavy suffered an injury that is both serious and unusual. There is no track record to go on. I find your both your dismissive attitude towards those who saw this coming and your self assurance that Jake is destined for another Cy Young amusing.

I was thinking this also .. Peavy is entering unknown waters with this type of surgery, as it's the first of it's kind for a pitcher .. i think that the White Sox planned on tweaking Jake's motion when he got here and that's exactly what they did, with bad results as he got lit-up .. when he returned to his former pitching motion he was dominating once again .. then the injury .. i'd be surprised if Jake Peavy is anything more than a serviceable starter from now on .. This is no broken clock or blind squirrel, but a reasonable viewpoint. Of course we all hope Jake is dominant again. I just hope Sox management doesn't assume that he will be.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2010, 02:18 PM
Really? Peavy suffered an injury that is both serious and unusual. There is no track record to go on. I find your both your dismissive attitude towards those who saw this coming and your self assurance that Jake is destined for another Cy Young amusing.

This is no broken clock or blind squirrel, but a reasonable viewpoint. Of course we all hope Jake is dominant again. I just hope Sox management doesn't assume that he will be.You saw nothing coming. As soon as news came out that "Peavy might be skipped a start" lots of posters pulled out their "Horrible trade! Damaged Goods! Kenny got fleeced!" signs from last year. People knew nothing, had no medical information or training, yet decided there was a huge underlying problem which management was so secretive about. Yes, management knew he had an issue, so they told their pitcher under contract for another 2 years and $33 million to go out their and risk further injury instead of skipping him one start. This isn't the Cubs' medical staff. Peavy was injured, but it had nothing to do with the elbow tightness he had in June.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2010, 02:22 PM
I was thinking this also .. Peavy is entering unknown waters with this type of surgery, as it's the first of it's kind for a pitcher .. i think that the White Sox planned on tweaking Jake's motion when he got here and that's exactly what they did, with bad results as he got lit-up .. when he returned to his former pitching motion he was dominating once again .. then the injury .. i'd be surprised if Jake Peavy is anything more than a serviceable starter from now on ..Yes, they tweaked his motion and he didn't do well. However, his old delivery had nothing to do with the injury. From what I have read on another board, a doctor claimed Peavy only stressed the lat muscle when he dropped down from the side, which he almost never does. Not only should it not hinder him if it fully heals, but it shouldn't be something on which he will always risk reinjury.

No it wasn't. Nobody said that. In fact, the consensus on WSI was that he must be hurt, otherwise why would he be pitching that badly?See above. Cooper acknowledged they changed his delivery and it didn't work, so they told Jake to go back to his old delivery, at which time he started dominating again.

downstairs
09-16-2010, 02:25 PM
I can see the Sox getting to 90 wins. It won't win the division, that's over now. But I chalk it up to one of those hard luck years the Sox seem to have every now and then. 2006, 1990, 1977, and I'm sure there are others. We played well, on balanace, this season. You can't fault anyone for a .545 record at any point.

captain54
09-16-2010, 02:35 PM
I think you will agree that this season is dramatically different from last season.

face reality, man....the only difference between 2009 and 2010 is that the Sox beat up on the weak sisters in NL in 2010....without that differential, the 2009 and 2010 record would be identical....plus, we still can't beat the Twins.

kittle42
09-16-2010, 02:41 PM
face reality, man....the only difference between 2009 and 2010 is that the Sox beat up on the weak sisters in NL in 2010....without that differential, the 2009 and 2010 record would be identical....plus, we still can't beat the Twins.

Excellent point! Basically the same suckitude.

captain54
09-16-2010, 02:53 PM
Excellent point! Basically the same suckitude.

and, I'd like to also add that we still can't beat the Twins, despite their not having their baggy-dome advantage in 2010.

1989
09-16-2010, 03:33 PM
and, I'd like to also add that we still can't beat the Twins, despite their not having their baggy-dome advantage in 2010.

No one is going to beat the twins if they continue get the fluke years they did out of Duensing, Pavano, and Valencia.

soltrain21
09-16-2010, 03:55 PM
No one is going to beat the twins if they continue get the fluke years they did out of Duensing, Pavano, and Valencia.

Pavano has proven to be good before. And how the hell can you say Valencia is a fluke? He was a rookie. And maybe Duensing turned a corner. We've seen it before.

asindc
09-16-2010, 03:57 PM
face reality, man....the only difference between 2009 and 2010 is that the Sox beat up on the weak sisters in NL in 2010....without that differential, the 2009 and 2010 record would be identical....plus, we still can't beat the Twins.

That's like saying the only difference between the 2008 Sox and the 2010 Sox is that the Twinkees are on pace to win a lot more games this year than they did in 2008. The wins count. By the way, the Sox post-AS break record was identical to Boston's going into yesterday's play, one game worse than Texas', 1 1/2 games worse than NYY's, and 3 1/2 games worse than TB's. All of which means that the reality you would have me face ignores that this year's team is better than last year's, and IF (noticed how big I made it) the Twinkees had only matched TB's post-AS break record, then the Sox would be no worse than two games behind at this point. But since IF's don't count, I'll stick with the improvement over last year, with a winning season all but assured and 90 wins within the realm of possibility.

Do I want and demand more? Damn skippy I do! Do I think Ozzie and KW made mistakes this year and last offseason? Yes, I do. You originally asked what signs of progress would made a Sox fan think 2011 will be better than 2010. I was merely pointing to several signs of progress, while not even mentioning the overall better record, which not only includes beating up on the NL, but includes sweeps of Atlanta and Boston in Boston. Am I pissed that it doesn't include at least one series win over the Twinkees, let alone a sweep? You better believe it! Which leads me to...

and, I'd like to also add that we still can't beat the Twins, despite their not having their baggy-dome advantage in 2010.

That is a real problem that must be solved. Totally, completely, utterly unacceptable.

FielderJones
09-16-2010, 04:20 PM
That is a real problem that must be solved. Totally, completely, utterly unacceptable.

If Morneau's career is over, you could start by walking Mauer every time. Not trying to get him to chase bad pitches. Put up four fingers and walk him. Every time. Let one of those lesser players try to beat you, not the player you know is going to beat you.

hi im skot
09-16-2010, 04:22 PM
If Morneau's career is over, you could start by walking Mauer every time. Not trying to get him to chase bad pitches. Put up four fingers and walk him. Every time. Let one of those lesser players try to beat you, not the player you know is going to beat you.

Without doing the research, I feel like the Sox have actually handled Mauer pretty well throughout his career.

FielderJones
09-16-2010, 04:24 PM
Without doing the research, I feel like the Sox have actually handled Mauer pretty well throughout his career.

Hawk said he was batting .322 lifetime against the Sox. Seems like it's .750.

Patrick134
09-16-2010, 05:16 PM
Pavano has proven to be good before. And how the hell can you say Valencia is a fluke? He was a rookie. And maybe Duensing turned a corner. We've seen it before.


The Twins have guys come on, have great years, and then stink. Lew Ford comes to mind right away, but there have been others.

slavko
09-16-2010, 06:15 PM
No it wasn't. Nobody said that. In fact, the consensus on WSI was that he must be hurt, otherwise why would he be pitching that badly?

Because coaching was trying to change his violent motion to one less destructive? And when he abandoned the new motion his pitching improved until he blew out his lat. But that's only my opinion.

kittle42
09-16-2010, 07:36 PM
No one is going to beat the twins if they continue get the fluke years they did out of Duensing, Pavano, and Valencia.

There is no evidence - outside of Pavano, and even that is arguable as he has been good in the past - that any of them is a fluke.

I am so tired of hearing this crap. Is it so hard to give their players credit?

kittle42
09-16-2010, 07:37 PM
The Twins have guys come on, have great years, and then stink. Lew Ford comes to mind right away, but there have been others.

Hasn't every team at some point? Cotts and Politte come to mind...

soltrain21
09-16-2010, 07:41 PM
Hasn't every team at some point? Cotts and Politte come to mind...

You know, like us and TCQ.

DirtySox
09-16-2010, 08:14 PM
I am so tired of hearing this crap. Is it so hard to give their players credit?

Around here yes. Just check out the embarrassing content of the AL central thread.

Pablo_Honey
09-16-2010, 08:44 PM
I am so tired of hearing this crap. Is it so hard to give their players credit?
I agree. As much as it frustrates me to say this, but the Twins are a better team. There's no question about it. While we did get a bit unlucky with our entire team hitting a massive slump in the first two months, the Twins have also had their share of bad luck with Nathan and Morneau going down, both of which they recovered from by having depth. They've played good baseball for most of the season and we haven't. A fluke does not last a whole season. If anything, our mid-season tear should be considered a fluke.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2010, 08:44 PM
You know, like us and TCQ.Bull****. Carlos put it together because he was healthy for a full year. He has had superstar potential his entire career. He hasn't done it since then because of injuries last year and poor mechanics/coaching this season. The year Carlos has had is the fault of the Sox. Whenever the Sox get rid of him I guarantee he will once again put up MVP type numbers.

Around here yes. Just check out the embarrassing content of the AL central thread.:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.

DirtySox
09-16-2010, 08:59 PM
:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.

Lol. Okay. You got me man. Brb I have some fellating and White Sox hating to do.

Craig Grebeck
09-16-2010, 09:03 PM
Bull****. Carlos put it together because he was healthy for a full year. He has had superstar potential his entire career. He hasn't done it since then because of injuries last year and poor mechanics/coaching this season. The year Carlos has had is the fault of the Sox. Whenever the Sox get rid of him I guarantee he will once again put up MVP type numbers.
Heh. I'll take that bet. And I was calling for Quentin's 2008 in February and March. He's not the same player.


:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.Oh, give me a break. Hawk doesn't know his ass from his ankles baseball-wise, and loves guys like Carlos Gomez. Those of us who have a brain understand that it's a well-run organization. It's not hard to see why they're doing well this year. (Hint: it isn't a "fluke year" from Danny Valencia, either.)

kittle42
09-16-2010, 09:23 PM
:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.

The usual WSI argument...just toss a degrading label on anyone who disagrees with you. Nice job!

Pablo_Honey
09-16-2010, 09:35 PM
The year Carlos has had is the fault of the Sox. Whenever the Sox get rid of him I guarantee he will once again put up MVP type numbers.
McAeQiLmEYU

:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.
What is this I don't even

captain54
09-16-2010, 09:42 PM
All of which means that the reality you would have me face ignores that this year's team is better than last year's,.

In your delirious happiness as to how great this year has been as opposed to last year, your math skills came undone a bit

the White Sox were 13-2 against the NL this year..10 of those wins were against Pittsburgh, Washington and the Cubs...

the Sox now (2010) have 79 wins with 16 to go....I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and are going to say they are going to win 9 more games...which will give them 88 wins for 2010

Let's say you only subtract, from this years total, 7 wins, from the 10 against the weak NL sisters...that equates to 81 wins for 2010...

so 81 wins for 2010...their total without the benefit of playing the Cubs, Washington and Pittsburgh....as opposed to 79 wins for 2009...

yeah, dramatic difference.

spawn
09-16-2010, 10:00 PM
In your delirious happiness as to how great this year has been as opposed to last year, your math skills came undone a bit

the White Sox were 13-2 against the NL this year..10 of those wins were against Pittsburgh, Washington and the Cubs...

the Sox now (2010) have 79 wins with 16 to go....I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and are going to say they are going to win 9 more games...which will give them 88 wins for 2010

Let's say you only subtract, from this years total, 7 wins, from the 10 against the weak NL sisters...that equates to 81 wins for 2010...

so 81 wins for 2010...their total without the benefit of playing the Cubs, Washington and Pittsburgh....as opposed to 79 wins for 2009...

yeah, dramatic difference.
As much as you would like to, you can't subtract wins, no matter how bad the team is that has been beaten. That's just ridiculous. I know you don't like the management that is in place, but this is just an assinine way of trying to defend your position.:rolleyes:

jdm2662
09-16-2010, 10:16 PM
Hasn't every team at some point? Cotts and Politte come to mind...

What's funny when writers pointed out the career years of Pollite and Cotts, half of this board got pissy about it. The White Sox have had their share of players having career years, just like every one else.

asindc
09-16-2010, 10:19 PM
In your delirious happiness as to how great this year has been as opposed to last year, your math skills came undone a bit

the White Sox were 13-2 against the NL this year..10 of those wins were against Pittsburgh, Washington and the Cubs...

the Sox now (2010) have 79 wins with 16 to go....I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and are going to say they are going to win 9 more games...which will give them 88 wins for 2010

Let's say you only subtract, from this years total, 7 wins, from the 10 against the weak NL sisters...that equates to 81 wins for 2010...

so 81 wins for 2010...their total without the benefit of playing the Cubs, Washington and Pittsburgh....as opposed to 79 wins for 2009...

yeah, dramatic difference.

Since you seem to have difficultly comprehending the point of my responses to your question regarding what would give a Sox fan any reason to believe there will be improvements in 2011 over 2010, I'll just take it that either you are choosing to ignore my responses or, well...

Anyway, why are you subtracting wins from the 2010 Sox but not from last year's team? I'm well aware of the NL record of this year's team. Last year's record against the NL was 10-5. The opponents were the Cubs (.516), Cincy (.481), LAD (.586), MIL (.494), and PIT (.385) for an aggregate winning percentage of .491. This year, the Sox' whopping 2-game improvement over the NL was accomplished against these teams: ATL (.565), Cubs (.445), FLA (.503), PIT (.331), and WAS (.425) for an aggregate winning percentage of .454 so far.

Since for some reason you didn't bother to subtract the NL wins from the 2009 total (not dramatic enough for you, perhaps?), I'll do it for you. 10 wins subtracted from 79 is 69. Compare 69 wins out of 146 games in 2009 to 67 wins out of 130 games in 2010 so far. With 16 fewer games played so far the Sox are two games from equaling their 2009 total. Though I don't know why you are discounting the league where Daniel Hudson and Clayton Richard have pitched so well.

captain54
09-16-2010, 10:27 PM
Since for some reason you didn't bother to subtract the NL wins from the 2009 total (not dramatic enough for you, perhaps?) .

because there's no logical reason to subtract wins from the 2009 Interleague play total, because the 2010 schedule was ridiculously easier than the 2009 schedule....that's kind of obvious and not that hard to figure out.

captain54
09-16-2010, 10:31 PM
As much as you would like to, you can't subtract wins, no matter how bad the team is that has been beaten. That's just ridiculous. I know you don't like the management that is in place, but this is just an assinine way of trying to defend your position.:rolleyes:

okay...right...the White Sox didn't benefit from an easy interleague schedule in 2010.....whatever you say, chief

asindc
09-16-2010, 10:31 PM
because there's no logical reason to subtract wins from the 2009 Interleague play total, because the 2010 schedule was ridiculously easier than the 2010 schedule....that's kind of obvious and not that hard to figure out.

As reflected in the two fewer wins the Sox won against the NL last year versus this year, despite the NL being the rigorous proving ground for former Sox pitchers like Hudson, Richard, and Ely.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 12:51 AM
Oh will some of you guys shut the **** up and read the board's motto?

If you want to be all cool and pretend to be unbiased, whatever, nobody gives a flying ****. Don't take it so god damn personally when you run across Sox fans who, you know, like the Sox.

There's nothing wrong with being biased, petty, and unobjective. It's sports, for ****'s sake.

kittle42
09-17-2010, 12:58 AM
Oh will some of you guys shut the **** up and read the board's motto?

If you want to be all cool and pretend to be unbiased, whatever, nobody gives a flying ****. Don't take it so god damn personally when you run across Sox fans who, you know, like the Sox.

There's nothing wrong with being biased, petty, and unobjective. It's sports, for ****'s sake.

I love the Sox. I also enjoy facts and logic.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 01:01 AM
I love the Sox. I also enjoy facts and logic.

Here's a fact: **** the Twins

captain54
09-17-2010, 01:19 AM
Oh will some of you guys shut the **** up and read the board's motto?

If you want to be all cool and pretend to be unbiased, whatever, nobody gives a flying ****. Don't take it so god damn personally when you run across Sox fans who, you know, like the Sox.

There's nothing wrong with being biased, petty, and unobjective. It's sports, for ****'s sake.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that if you criticize management or question whether the team is moving in the right direction..or make disparaging comments about the general performance, that means you have a general disdain for the team and don't qualify as a fan.

this debate have been going on for a long as this board has been around, and on other boards, way before this board even existed..

for chrissake, the Brooklyn Dodger fans coined the nickname "Bums" for their team when they sucked...and these fans lived and died for their team...

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 01:24 AM
I agree. As much as it frustrates me to say this, but the Twins are a better team. There's no question about it. While we did get a bit unlucky with our entire team hitting a massive slump in the first two months, the Twins have also had their share of bad luck with Nathan and Morneau going down, both of which they recovered from by having depth. They've played good baseball for most of the season and we haven't. A fluke does not last a whole season. If anything, our mid-season tear should be considered a fluke.

I agree with that. The Twins are better, much better. Did they get some lucky breaks? Sure, but as the guy that Sox fans (allegedly) here love to bash - THE Hawk - said tonight, "Good teams get lucky breaks." The Twins are a damn good team. I respect the Twins organization. They do a damn good job. They don't require lucky breaks to be good but they sure as hades take advantage of them. Good for them. They'll need their talent and a few lucky breaks to get by the AL East.


Bull****. Carlos put it together because he was healthy for a full year. He has had superstar potential his entire career. He hasn't done it since then because of injuries last year and poor mechanics/coaching this season. The year Carlos has had is the fault of the Sox. Whenever the Sox get rid of him I guarantee he will once again put up MVP type numbers.

:rolleyes: Oh, heavens! We wouldn't want to embarrass you and your high baseball standard. We can't only hope to be as smart, stat-minded and myopic as you one day. It's funny that the stat people, whom mostly seem to hate Hawk (and pretty much everything White Sox) are out-fellating Hawk about the Twins. I guess there is at least one thing you and Hawk agree about.

The usual WSI argument...just toss a degrading label on anyone who disagrees with you. Nice job!

Yeah, apparently now it's cool here to call Hawk "a douchbag" while in the same post blowing Santo...kisses. Then make sure to wrap yourself in the protective covering of the "I'm just an objective Sox fan" to insulate yourself from criticism.

:dtroll: is what that is.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-17-2010, 01:24 AM
here's a fact: **** the twins

potw.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 01:25 AM
If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that if you criticize management or question whether the team is moving in the right direction..or make disparaging comments about the general performance, that means you have a general disdain for the team and don't qualify as a fan.

this debate have been going on for a long as this board has been around, and on other boards, way before this board even existed..

for chrissake, the Brooklyn Dodger fans coined the nickname "Bums" for their team when they sucked...and these fans lived and died for their team...

Absolutely not, but this is baseball, it's supposed to be sorta fun. There are some guys who live to drain even the slightest bit of fandom out of every discussion. Like they're offended if they run across a Sox fan on a Sox board.

Jesus, as I said, if you want to pretend to be the cool, unbiased guy that doesn't let loyalty cloud his judgment, go ahead. But don't take it so to heart when people have the audacity to not share your POV.

doublem23
09-17-2010, 01:27 AM
Yeah, apparently now it's cool here to call Hawk "a douchbag" while in the same post blowing Santo...kisses. Then make sure to wrap yourself in the protective covering of the "I'm just an objective Sox fan" to insulate yourself from criticism.

:dtroll: is what that is.

OK, the point I was trying to make? This is the exact opposite on the spectrum.

captain54
09-17-2010, 01:47 AM
Absolutely not, but this is baseball, it's supposed to be sorta fun.

Jesus, as I said, if you want to pretend to be the cool, unbiased guy that doesn't let loyalty cloud his judgment, go ahead. But don't take it so to heart when people have the audacity to not share your POV.

Everyone's definition of fun is different..it's all relative...

If the attitude " hey gang, even though we just our ass handed to us by the Twins, we're still a great team, and even though we blew the division in the first and last couple of months, this has been an unbelievable season and we're going to be even better year...I'm not really sure why and how we will be...but we will be"....

if this is someone's idea of fun....have at it...go for it

other sayings I read often that I believe are meant to rally the troops and show how much you are a Sox fan, but would not qualify as my idea of "fun"

"meh, go get-em tomorrow"
"you win 64 and you lose 64..this is one of the 64 we lose"'
"it's still early, lot of season left"
"this team is underachieving right now, they'll snap out of it"
"Jenks is still one of the premier closers in the league, he'll be fine"
"Carlos Quentin is just in a funk, he'll snap out of it"

asindc
09-17-2010, 08:37 AM
If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that if you criticize management or question whether the team is moving in the right direction..or make disparaging comments about the general performance, that means you have a general disdain for the team and don't qualify as a fan.

this debate have been going on for a long as this board has been around, and on other boards, way before this board even existed..

for chrissake, the Brooklyn Dodger fans coined the nickname "Bums" for their team when they sucked...and these fans lived and died for their team...

You read him incorrectly.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 08:59 AM
Here's a fact: **** the Twins
Of course. **** the Twins. But I don't think it's anti-Sox to say they're really, really, really good and the White Sox should feel no shame winning 85-88 games with the roster they glued together.

Now, management should feel differently.

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Yeah, apparently now it's cool here to call Hawk "a douchbag" while in the same post blowing Santo...kisses. Then make sure to wrap yourself in the protective covering of the "I'm just an objective Sox fan" to insulate yourself from criticism.

:dtroll: is what that is.
Yes, I blew Santo kisses. I said he was genuine, and that I didn't like him. If he read that, man he'd blush.

Jollyroger2
09-17-2010, 09:19 AM
There isn't much point in over-analyzing anything. The facts as I said the other day more than speak for themselves. The Sox have been mediocre at best all season, and rolled over and died when it came to their chief opposition for the division crown. The team is/was talented enough to compete for a while, but they didn't. Pure and simple. And management was satisfied enough with mediocrity and did nothing.

Very frustrating season, but I won't lose any sleep over it. If the Sox don't give a spit, neither do I.

kittle42
09-17-2010, 11:41 AM
Yeah, apparently now it's cool here to call Hawk "a douchbag" while in the same post blowing Santo...kisses. Then make sure to wrap yourself in the protective covering of the "I'm just an objective Sox fan" to insulate yourself from criticism.

:dtroll: is what that is.

What idiot did that?

Besides, Crawdad - this has been a good season for you - the Cubs are terrible! :D:

TheOldRoman
09-17-2010, 12:20 PM
Of course. **** the Twins. But I don't think it's anti-Sox to say they're really, really, really good and the White Sox should feel no shame winning 85-88 games with the roster they glued together.

Now, management should feel differently.Let me ask you this? How can a team who is winning close to 90 games lose 13 of 18 against another team? Are there any other first place teams who have that record against a second or even third place team? Would you consider that normal? How can the Twins win the season series (mostly handily) almost every year when the teams have been so evenly matched this past decade? There are intangibles you refuse to acknowledge, such as momentum, intimidation, the Sox being frightened of playing in the Metrodome in the past, which all go into the game. Since you don't accept those, you have to overrate the Twins to account for their record and what they have done against the Sox.

Against other teams, the Twins are 75-53 and the Sox are 74-54. You can't take away from what the Twins have done, but what does that tell you? If the Twins are SUCH a great team, why are they not pounding other teams the way they pound the Sox? Why is such a "poorly constructed" Sox team neck and neck with the Twins in those games? These are very even teams. The difference in the season has been that the Sox continually mess themselves at the mere sight of the Twins. If the Sox had gone .500 against the Twins they would be one game out right now. I am not seeing this dominant Twins team. I am seeing another Twins team ready to do its best impression of a John Shoop offense - three and out.

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 12:32 PM
What idiot did that?

Besides, Crawdad - this has been a good season for you - the Cubs are terrible! :D:

"Or they could be (brace for it), objective White Sox fans!

"Listen, Santo's a yokel. I have no ill will towards him, and the guy seems like the genuine article. Hawk, on the other hand, is a blathering douchebag. This doesn't make me a Cub fan, it makes me a human being with opinions." - "Craig Grebeck" - 8/26/2010

Idiot? Not sure about that but without a doubt a...

:dtroll:

doublem23
09-17-2010, 12:35 PM
Idiot? Not sure about that but without a doubt a...

:dtroll:

Disliking Hawk doesn't make one a troll.

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 12:45 PM
Disliking Hawk doesn't make one a troll.

Absolutely right. I don't have any trouble with someone not caring for Hawk as a broadcaster, Sox fan or non-Sox fan. But why would any Sox fan call Hawk "a douchebag?" That's unacceptable in my view. Dislike Hawk as broadcaster all you want but Hawk's "a douchebag" and 'Santo is the real thing?'

I wonder how a comparable comment would fly on a Twins board, say someone claiming to be a Twins fan saying that Bert Blylevin is a douchebag but that Hawk is the real deal? Or if on Cubs discussion group a self-purported "objective" Cubs fan called Santo "a douchebag" whilst saying the slightest thing positive about Hawk.

BTW the person in question here also has said that Ozzie and AJ are douchebags too. Gotta love that objectivity.

kittle42
09-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Idiot? Not sure about that but without a doubt a...

:dtroll:

I'd disagree with your characterization of his Santo comment, but though Hawk has been unbearable at times this year, I would not call him a douchebag.

kittle42
09-17-2010, 12:47 PM
BTW the person in question here also has said that Ozzie and AJ are douchebags too. Gotta love that objectivity.

Many of us love Ozzie, but he is kind of a douchebag.

jdm2662
09-17-2010, 12:47 PM
Let me ask you this? How can a team who is winning close to 90 games lose 13 of 18 against another team? Are there any other first place teams who have that record against a second or even third place team? Would you consider that normal? How can the Twins win the season series (mostly handily) almost every year when the teams have been so evenly matched this past decade? There are intangibles you refuse to acknowledge, such as momentum, intimidation, the Sox being frightened of playing in the Metrodome in the past, which all go into the game. Since you don't accept those, you have to overrate the Twins to account for their record and what they have done against the Sox.

Against other teams, the Twins are 75-53 and the Sox are 74-54. You can't take away from what the Twins have done, but what does that tell you? If the Twins are SUCH a great team, why are they not pounding other teams the way they pound the Sox? Why is such a "poorly constructed" Sox team neck and neck with the Twins in those games? These are very even teams. The difference in the season has been that the Sox continually mess themselves at the mere sight of the Twins. If the Sox had gone .500 against the Twins they would be one game out right now. I am not seeing this dominant Twins team. I am seeing another Twins team ready to do its best impression of a John Shoop offense - three and out.

The 2005 Indians won 93 games, yet they went 5-14 against the Sox. Hell, the 72 win Sox beat the 88 win Tigers 11 times in 2007 and the 96 win DET team went 7-12 against the Sox in 2006. It's not the first or last team a certain team owns another one. Let's also not forget when DET was fighting for their division lives last season, they went 2-4 against the Sox in late Sept.

What is a trend that needs to stop is the Sox have simply fallen to the Twins one too many times in the second half of seasons. Go back to previous seasons. The Sox played the Twins three series at home in 2008, with the last one in early June. The Sox pounded them going 7-2. Even last year when the Sox only went 6-12 against the Twins. The Sox took two of three in the first two series in the first half. The late Sept series at home? They got swept. They also swept the Twins in a series in early 2006 before going 1-5 in the second half. Hell, even in 2005 when they 7-3 in the last ten games, they still got swept in a August series at home. And, we don''t need to remind everyone about 2003. The Sox went 9-10 against the Twins, but lost the last five. 2004? They went 6-1 in the first seven games in the dome before taking a nose dive both at home and the dome.

Another fact remains that the Twins flat out dominated the division this year. The Sox have not. The Sox lost too many games against the Royals, Indians, and Tigers as well. We can look at the Twins dominance all we want. If the Sox take care of the rest of the division as the Twins have, they wouldn't be that far out of first, either.

captain54
09-17-2010, 01:05 PM
Let me ask you this? How can a team who is winning close to 90 games lose 13 of 18 against another team? Are there any other first place teams who have that record against a second or even third place team? Would you consider that normal? How can the Twins win the season series (mostly handily) almost every year when the teams have been so evenly matched this past decade? There are intangibles you refuse to acknowledge, such as momentum, intimidation, the Sox being frightened of playing in the Metrodome in the past, which all go into the game. Since you don't accept those, you have to overrate the Twins to account for their record and what they have done against the Sox.

Against other teams, the Twins are 75-53 and the Sox are 74-54. You can't take away from what the Twins have done, but what does that tell you? If the Twins are SUCH a great team, why are they not pounding other teams the way they pound the Sox? Why is such a "poorly constructed" Sox team neck and neck with the Twins in those games? These are very even teams. The difference in the season has been that the Sox continually mess themselves at the mere sight of the Twins. If the Sox had gone .500 against the Twins they would be one game out right now. I am not seeing this dominant Twins team. I am seeing another Twins team ready to do its best impression of a John Shoop offense - three and out.

As a Sox fan, these are the kind of posts I love....objective, fair, intelligent and analytical.....no hint of "the Sox are great, #### the Twins"

And as a Sox fan, these are the kind of posts that give me hope...hope that somewhere, the powers that be of the WS are thinking the same thoughts and are, as we speak, trying to fix this for 2011.

Enough is enough...the White Sox should be built next year to crush the Twins...that is how the great generals in history prepared for battle...they knew they opposition as well, if not better than their own forces..they knew that the best offensive strategy is to analyze and pick apart the oppostions strengths and weaknesses, and formulate your attack based on that....

asindc
09-17-2010, 01:41 PM
As a Sox fan, these are the kind of posts I love....objective, fair, intelligent and analytical.....no hint of "the Sox are great, #### the Twins"

And as a Sox fan, these are the kind of posts that give me hope...hope that somewhere, the powers that be of the WS are thinking the same thoughts and are, as we speak, trying to fix this for 2011.

Enough is enough...the White Sox should be built next year to crush the Twins...that is how the great generals in history prepared for battle...they knew they opposition as well, if not better than their own forces..they knew that the best offensive strategy is to analyze and pick apart the oppostions strengths and weaknesses, and formulate your attack based on that....

I'm all for that. Enough of the Twinkees dominance. We are overdue to punk those bitches!

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 02:06 PM
Absolutely right. I don't have any trouble with someone not caring for Hawk as a broadcaster, Sox fan or non-Sox fan. But why would any Sox fan call Hawk "a douchebag?" That's unacceptable in my view. Dislike Hawk as broadcaster all you want but Hawk's "a douchebag" and 'Santo is the real thing?'

I wonder how a comparable comment would fly on a Twins board, say someone claiming to be a Twins fan saying that Bert Blylevin is a douchebag but that Hawk is the real deal? Or if on Cubs discussion group a self-purported "objective" Cubs fan called Santo "a douchebag" whilst saying the slightest thing positive about Hawk.

BTW the person in question here also has said that Ozzie and AJ are douchebags too. Gotta love that objectivity.
I probably could have been harsher towards Ozzie. Of course, I never would have used the word he used to characterize Jay Mariotti, because I'm not a jackass.

So, yeah, I think douchebag was probably going light on a guy that would be such a raving lunatic in the media.

Does Ozzie do some things I like? Yeah, he does. He handles the staff well and I like the way he defends his players on the field. Off the field, he can piss up a rope.

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 02:07 PM
Here's something else about the beanballs...

The Twins are positioning themselves for the post-season. Imagine how they'd respond if in retaliation for the Konerko beanball the Sox threw one near the head of Joe Mauer. Imagine if a retaliatory pitch injured Mauer, knocked him out of the post-season.

You'd think that scenario would cause the Twins to be extra careful NOT to bean a division rival, one with nothing to lose at this point of the season. I mean if the Sox had injured Mauer in response, it's not like a fine or suspension is going to hurt the Sox season.

But no, the Twins have such arrogant swagger that they don't even fear their guy getting hurt in a retaliation and crushing their post-season.

The Twins initiating a beanball race had the potential to be devastating to them. But no, they know that they have nothing to fear from the Sox. The best the Sox could muster was an 83mph plunking and not even on the Twins best hitter, Mauer. Take that White Sox. Sox response? Sorry, I hope that didn't hurt.

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 02:19 PM
Here's something else about the beanballs...

The Twins are positioning themselves for the post-season. Imagine how they'd respond if in retaliation for the Konerko beanball the Sox threw one near the head of Joe Mauer. Imagine if a retaliatory pitch injured Mauer, knocked him out of the post-season.

You'd think that scenario would cause the Twins to be extra careful NOT to bean a division rival, one with nothing to lose at this point of the season. I mean if the Sox had injured Mauer in response, it's not like a fine or suspension is going to hurt the Sox season.

But no, the Twins have such arrogant swagger that they don't even fear their guy getting hurt in a retaliation and crushing their post-season.

The Twins initiating a beanball race had the potential to be devastating to them. But no, they know that they have nothing to fear from the Sox. The best the Sox could muster was an 83mph plunking and not even on the Twins best hitter, Mauer. Take that White Sox.

I must be missing the "arrogant swagger" that the Twins have. I see a team that goes out, and gets the job done in a variety of ways.

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 02:27 PM
I must be missing the "arrogant swagger" that the Twins have. I see a team that goes out, and gets the job done in a variety of ways.

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/forest-for-the-trees.jpg

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 02:34 PM
http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/forest-for-the-trees.jpg

Okay.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2010, 02:44 PM
I probably could have been harsher towards Ozzie. Of course, I never would have used the word he used to characterize Jay Mariotti, because I'm not a jackass.

So, yeah, I think douchebag was probably going light on a guy that would be such a raving lunatic in the media. You really see a huge difference?

DirtySox
09-17-2010, 02:47 PM
You really see a huge difference?

I do. One is much more offensive to me at least. :shrug:

Calling someone a D-bag is akin to call him a prick or an ass. I don't have much issue with the term. To each their own though.

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 02:48 PM
You really see a huge difference?

I see a huge difference. The one Ozzie used has a long history of human rights and hate crimes surrounding it.

Douchebag? Not so much...

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 03:49 PM
You really see a huge difference?
You are right in that both are juvenile and unsophisticated. I can't argue that calling someone a "douchebag" is intelligent or respectful. The other word, of course, correlates here as well.

But then...yeah. Then, there's no difference beyond that. "Douchebag" is stupid but harmless. The other is quite harmful, and much more stupid.

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 04:08 PM
You really see a huge difference?

Craig Grebeck's "Objective" Sox fan rulebook:

* Derogatory terms directed at the Sox, Sox broadcasters and Sox fans? Acceptable.

* Derogatory terms directed at the Twins or Cubs, Twins or Cubs broadcasters and Twins or Cubs fans? Unacceptable.

DirtySox
09-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Craig Grebeck's "Objective" Sox fan rulebook:

* Derogatory terms directed at the Sox, Sox broadcasters and Sox fans? Acceptable.

* Derogatory terms directed at the Twins or Cubs, Twins or Cubs broadcasters and Twins or Cubs fans? Unacceptable.

I think someone has a crush on CG. :giverose:

Craig Grebeck
09-17-2010, 04:29 PM
I cannot believe people are indirectly defending the use of the word "******."

DrCrawdad
09-17-2010, 04:36 PM
I cannot believe people are indirectly defending the use of the word "******."

Clever misdirection. The discussion was about your calling Hawk "a douchebag." You introduced this red herring about Ozzie's use of a derogatory term.

I'm done.

soltrain21
09-17-2010, 05:18 PM
I think someone has a crush on CG. :giverose:

It's so cute.

Gavin
09-17-2010, 05:20 PM
So if there's no difference between ****** and douchebag, can we use both on this board?

SoxandtheCityTee
09-17-2010, 05:31 PM
People can use whatever language the rules and mods allow. For the record, though, douchebag is indeed offensive to some folks. I'm not going to go into its origins. I swear quite a bit IRL, but I don't use this one, ever.

DickAllen72
09-17-2010, 05:40 PM
Here's something else about the beanballs...

The Twins are positioning themselves for the post-season. Imagine how they'd respond if in retaliation for the Konerko beanball the Sox threw one near the head of Joe Mauer. Imagine if a retaliatory pitch injured Mauer, knocked him out of the post-season.

You'd think that scenario would cause the Twins to be extra careful NOT to bean a division rival, one with nothing to lose at this point of the season. I mean if the Sox had injured Mauer in response, it's not like a fine or suspension is going to hurt the Sox season.

But no, the Twins have such arrogant swagger that they don't even fear their guy getting hurt in a retaliation and crushing their post-season.

The Twins initiating a beanball race had the potential to be devastating to them. But no, they know that they have nothing to fear from the Sox. The best the Sox could muster was an 83mph plunking and not even on the Twins best hitter, Mauer. Take that White Sox. Sox response? Sorry, I hope that didn't hurt.
Excellent point.