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thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:11 PM
Yeah.

4gv52Y2rhac

doublem23
09-14-2010, 11:11 PM
KuZ5Xbt8-00

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:11 PM
Shame on this team. Shame on them.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:11 PM
Well, it'll be easy to seat-hop during the final few homes games, I guess. Also, tickets might be cheaper.

Oh hell, this does suck.

konerko 14
09-14-2010, 11:11 PM
:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:12 PM
That will do it.

Can we get Hudson and our 9 mil back.

Next year salary for salary we could be talking Hudson and Victor Martinez or Jackson and AJ.......hmmmmmmm

Chisox353014
09-14-2010, 11:12 PM
Go Yankees, Rays and/or Rangers, I guess.

**kills self**

DirtySox
09-14-2010, 11:12 PM
Let Morel play out the year, kthx.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:13 PM
And also, I can save up the money that was in my playoff savings account for other stuff, I guess.

Rats.

Tragg
09-14-2010, 11:13 PM
It's time for Guillen to go.
His ego has consumed his ability to manage this team. Bunting with the heart of the order - intentionally making outs to take the Sox out of a big inning - is just beyond belief.
Guillen's ego is playing for 1 run.....the Twins stroke for 9.

He can't evaluate talent for ****, preferring personalities over ability, which he can't see anyway. Young players need not apply.

It's time for a change.

KnightSox
09-14-2010, 11:13 PM
It was a good ride the last two and a half months.

chisoxfanatic
09-14-2010, 11:13 PM
tkJNyQfAprY

Rockabilly
09-14-2010, 11:13 PM
I will become a Rays fan for the rest of this season...

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
Someone please tell me we're not stuck with Manny past this year.

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
Let Morel play out the year, kthx.
With Ozzie making the lineups??? Fat chance!

But yes, Morel and Viciedo should play just about every game for the rest of this season.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
Also, we need a manager who doesn't have minnesota in his head. I have a friend who is a middle higher up with the Braves, just finished talking to him. His exact words "Its pretty well known Gardenhire just owns Ozzie. How can you expect to beat a team when your manager doesn't know how."

JB98
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
I'm not that upset.

I had my tirade when Thome hit that HR off Thornton a month ago. My playoff hopes ended that night. Ever since then, I've just been trying to enjoy baseball.

I'll enjoy the final 18 games and move on to hockey season.

Go Sox. Let's win as many as we can these last couple weeks.

Soxman219
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
Now that the season is over, who and what do we need for next year that will bring us back to the playoffs?

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
I will become a Rays fan for the rest of this season...

That won't be hard for me. I love how the Rays play baseball, all those no-hitters aside.

SoxSpeed22
09-14-2010, 11:14 PM
At the end of it all, we were just an above-average team that overachieved in June and July after a terrible April and May.
Go Rays

Rockabilly
09-14-2010, 11:15 PM
this season will be a success if the Sox can win 90 games

all*star quentin
09-14-2010, 11:15 PM
Very disappointing.

Rockin Robin
09-14-2010, 11:15 PM
I'm going to have nightmares about Alexei bunting with 2 men on and no outs all winter. Thanks, Ozzieball!

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:16 PM
Someone please tell me we're not stuck with Manny past this year.
I don't see him coming back.

I hope they bring back Paulie and AJ though. I wouldn't mind bringing almost everyone back except Teahen and Kotsay.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:16 PM
It's time for Guillen to go.
His ego has consumed his ability to manage this team. Bunting with the heart of the order - intentionally making outs to take the Sox out of a big inning - is just beyond belief.
Guillen's ego is playing for 1 run.....the Twins stroke for 9.

He can't evaluate talent for ****, preferring personalities over ability, which he can't see anyway. Young players need not apply.

It's time for a change.

I'm starting to think that Ozzie has to go, but for God's sake, Alexei was 1 for 8 against the guy, if he hit into a double play everyone would be calling for Ozzie's head cuz he didn't bunt.

And this whole talent evaluation, you know who is supposed to do that? That would be Kenny, HE is the guy who thought Teahen could play third, he is JUST as much responsible for bringing in Kotsay at DH (remember at the time Ozzie said "I don't know if I can get Thome at bats everyday," and THEN Kenny passed on Thome and passed on the blame to Ozzie). If Ozzie goes, Kenny HAS to go. My faith in Ozzie is waivering, but my faith in Kenny is completely lost. I'm sick of getting aging veterans and hoping they can have one more good year.

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:16 PM
I'm going to have nightmares about Alexei bunting with 2 men on and no outs all winter. Thanks, Ozzieball!
Having one of your best and currently hottest hitters bunt is bad strategy. But that's Ozzieball.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
I don't see him coming back.

I hope they bring back Paulie and AJ though. I wouldn't mind bringing almost everyone back except Teahen and Kotsay.

Same here. But I think we're stuck with Teahen.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
I don't see him coming back.

I hope they bring back Paulie and AJ though. I wouldn't mind bringing almost everyone back except Teahen and Kotsay.

No more AJ please. Your C either needs to hit, or be stellar behind the plate. He is no longer either. Also, I think his hissy fits on the field are getting a bit tiresome.

Rockabilly
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
We will have some major changes this off season

tstrike2000
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
When do pitchers and catchers report?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
Go Rockies!

Thanks for a great run, Sox. You tried, but it just wasn't in the cards this year. Minnesota, at least TRY to win a damn game in the playoffs this year, will ya?!

Bring back Paulie.

RIP 2010 White Sox.

russ99
09-14-2010, 11:17 PM
It's time for Guillen to go.
His ego has consumed his ability to manage this team. Bunting with the heart of the order - intentionally making outs to take the Sox out of a big inning - is just beyond belief.
Guillen's ego is playing for 1 run.....the Twins stroke for 9.

He can't evaluate talent for ****, preferring personalities over ability, which he can't see anyway. Young players need not apply.

It's time for a change.

Your blind hatred for Ozzie knows no bounds.

What about all the runs "Mr. RISP" Manny Ramirez left on base? Is that Ozzie's fault too?

We acquired him for one reason, and he failed miserably at it the most important game of the year.

SI1020
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
It's time for Guillen to go.
His ego has consumed his ability to manage this team. Bunting with the heart of the order - intentionally making outs to take the Sox out of a big inning - is just beyond belief.
Guillen's ego is playing for 1 run.....the Twins stroke for 9.

He can't evaluate talent for ****, preferring personalities over ability, which he can't see anyway. Young players need not apply.

It's time for a change. Pounding the table in agreement.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
I'm glad I'll be really busy with school/work/internship, it always makes me focus a bit less on baseball.

And of course, glad there's a place like this to commiserate.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Also, we need a manager who doesn't have minnesota in his head. I have a friend who is a middle higher up with the Braves, just finished talking to him. His exact words "Its pretty well known Gardenhire just owns Ozzie. How can you expect to beat a team when your manager doesn't know how."

This actually might be the best case against Ozzie, the sort of bravado he had in '05 is gone now.

esbrechtel
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
If they got Dunn would that had put them over? I still say no...:whiner:

tstrike2000
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Go Rockies!

Thanks for a great run, Sox. You tried, but it just wasn't in the cards this year. Minnesota, at least TRY to win a damn game in the playoffs this year, will ya?!

Bring back Paulie.

RIP 2010 White Sox.

Go Tampa Bay!

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:18 PM
The late runs were window dressing. When Danks went from 0-2 on Young leading off the 7th, to 2 pitches later where he hit him and wild pitched him to 2nd, that was ballgame.

Soxman219
09-14-2010, 11:19 PM
I think someone needs to tell this organization to stop being afraid of the Twins every year! We'll never make the playoffs if we can't beat Twins! Something must be done!

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:19 PM
Your blind hatred for Ozzie knows no bounds.

What about all the runs "Mr. RISP" Manny Ramirez left on base? Is that Ozzie's fault too?

We acquired him for one reason, and he failed miserably at it the most important game of the year.

What about the other 10 ass kickings the twins handed us. How can you deny the twins own us?

DrCrawdad
09-14-2010, 11:19 PM
Surprisingly I'm not even that upset. Of course I didn't watch the game.

Let Morel play out the year, kthx.

Indeed. Play Morel. Play Viciedo.

RadioheadRocks
09-14-2010, 11:19 PM
Minnesota, at least TRY to win a damn game in the playoffs this year, will ya?!


Screw that!

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:19 PM
No more AJ please. Your C either needs to hit, or be stellar behind the plate. He is no longer either. Also, I think his hissy fits on the field are getting a bit tiresome.
In that case, we need to get a catcher via free agency. Flowers is not ready. In fact, I'm starting to think he may be nothing more than a minor-league journeyman.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:20 PM
I think someone needs to tell this organization to stop being afraid of the Twins every year! We'll never make the playoffs if we can't beat Twins! Something must be done!

Not to mention the rest of the AL Central.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Your blind hatred for Ozzie knows no bounds.

What about all the runs "Mr. RISP" Manny Ramirez left on base? Is that Ozzie's fault too?

We acquired him for one reason, and he failed miserably at it the most important game of the year.

Shh! It's all Ozzie's fault! It's his fault his players can't hit with runners on! It's his fault that Kenny thought Teahen could play third base and when Ozzie said he wanted a more flexible DH Kenny got him Kotsay and Jones. It's ALL Ozzie's fault.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:20 PM
I don't see him coming back.

I hope they bring back Paulie and AJ though. I wouldn't mind bringing almost everyone back except Teahen and Kotsay.

Thank God. Someone in the game thread remarked about not having money to sign Paulie because of Manny and thought ***???

I pretty much agree although I'm not too sure about Bobby. Not sure if it's injuries or he's lost it. He's been so up and down this year.

Soxman219
09-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Not to mention the rest of the AL Central.

That too!

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:21 PM
That too!

Eh, it's like Murder on the Orient Express. Multiple killers of the 2010 White Sox (should I have put a spoiler alert on that? Lol).

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:21 PM
If they got Dunn would that had put them over? I still say no...:whiner:

No, the bullpen implosion in August is what did us in.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:22 PM
In that case, we need to get a catcher via free agency. Flowers is not ready. In fact, I'm starting to think he may be nothing more than a minor-league journeyman.

I don't disagree. We need a catcher and a left handed hitter. At this point, I would trade Buehrle to free up money for Victor Martinez. I could feel fine with Peavy Danks Floyd Edwin and Sale. Perfectly Fine.

Quentin08
09-14-2010, 11:22 PM
Wow, one of the most depressing Sox games I can ever remember.. and I've been following the Sox since '93.. :whiner:

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:22 PM
The late runs were window dressing. When Danks went from 0-2 on Young leading off the 7th, to 2 pitches later where he hit him and wild pitched him to 2nd, that was ballgame.
Yep. After that wild pitch I just knew he was going to lose this game.

And that high changeup to Young for the HR was just stupid. That pitch should have been a fastball right under his chin not a slow pitch over the plate.

samurai_sox
09-14-2010, 11:22 PM
112 people with no lives watching this thread.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:23 PM
Wow, one of the most depressing Sox games I can ever remember.. and I've been following the Sox since '93.. :whiner:

It gives Saturday's game a run for its money.

AlexRios51
09-14-2010, 11:23 PM
It's time for Guillen to go.
His ego has consumed his ability to manage this team. Bunting with the heart of the order - intentionally making outs to take the Sox out of a big inning - is just beyond belief.
Guillen's ego is playing for 1 run.....the Twins stroke for 9.

He can't evaluate talent for ****, preferring personalities over ability, which he can't see anyway. Young players need not apply.

It's time for a change.
Make that Guillen, Jenks, A.J., Teahen, Quentin, Kotsay, Manny and Linebrink.
Only one thing left to say 5 months until catchers and pitchers report to spring training :bandance:. This time put a winning ****ing team on the field KW.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:23 PM
I don't disagree. We need a catcher and a left handed hitter. At this point, I would trade Buehrle to free up money for Victor Martinez. I could feel fine with Peavy Danks Floyd Edwin and Sale. Perfectly Fine.
Sale needs to pitch a full season as a starter in the minors before we can even consider putting him in our rotation.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:24 PM
Thank God. Someone in the game thread remarked about not having money to sign Paulie because of Manny and thought ***???

I pretty much agree although I'm not too sure about Bobby. Not sure if it's injuries or he's lost it. He's been so up and down this year.

Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

russ99
09-14-2010, 11:24 PM
What about the other 10 ass kickings the twins handed us. How can you deny the twins own us?

No, I can't. But they're just the better team, the one team in the majors who's played .700+ baseball since the all-star break. It's not some deep seeded ineptitude by our manager.

But if it makes you feel better to point fingers, go with it.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-14-2010, 11:24 PM
No, the bullpen implosion in August is what did us in.

I think the fact that the White Sox thought the season began on June 9th was the main cause of this disaster.

Think about it...we even play a couple games under .500 in that span, we're still in the thick of the race.

Actually, don't think about it....it'll only piss you off more.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:25 PM
No, I can't. But they're just the better team, the one team in the majors who's played .700+ baseball since the all-star break. It's not some deep seeded ineptitude by our manager.

But if it makes you feel better to point fingers, go with it.


Plus they did it without Morneau. If we had lost Paulie for 2 weeks, we'd be 15 games out.

JB98
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
No, I can't. But they're just the better team, the one team in the majors who's played .700+ baseball since the all-star break. It's not some deep seeded ineptitude by our manager.

But if it makes you feel better to point fingers, go with it.

Yeah, they are 40-16 since the All-Star break.

They just kicked our asses. And everyone else's asses, too. :shrug:

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
Ah, well. 2 out of 3 would be nice.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

****!!!

soltrain21
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

If that's the case then blow it up completely.

Tragg
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
Yea, bring everyone back.
Dump Morel and Flowers for 32 year old middle relievers.
Maybe we can send Sale for a tired pitcher on his last year of his contract
Get this team back to 86 wins.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:27 PM
No, I can't. But they're just the better team, the one team in the majors who's played .700+ baseball since the all-star break. It's not some deep seeded ineptitude by our manager.

But if it makes you feel better to point fingers, go with it.

This has been a trend for years. Gardenhire OWNS Ozzie. Did you hear Ozzie's post game? He doesn't even know how far out we are.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:27 PM
If that's the case then blow it up completely.
And watch five more years of bad baseball? Hell no.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:27 PM
Make that Guillen, Jenks, A.J., Teahen, Quentin, Kotsay, Manny and Linebrink.
Only one thing left to say 5 months until catchers and pitchers report to spring training :bandance:. This time put a winning ****ing team on the field KW.

Here is what I want to know, why does Ozzie get the blame for everything and Kenny comes away scot-free? Kenny was the guy who thought Teahen could play third, that Brian Anderson would be a .270 hitter (and this was in 2009), that Wilson Betemit was a legit replacement for Juan Uribe, that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon could hold up the back end of the rotation last year, the list goes on and on.

Quentin08
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
6 1/2 months till opening day. I have a feeling attendance is gonna be ugly next season..

samurai_sox
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
If that's the case then blow it up completely.

Yup, if we don't have the money to improve the team then cut payroll.

2011 = The Kids Can Play 2.0??

I'm starting to want that....

Nelfox02
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
man, Twins ****ing own us, ****ing own us

and the scary thing is people---they only stand to get better. new park, tons of money coming in, as always they have solid looking young players.......they will always be hampered by the size of the market they play in yes....but is there any doubt the Twins roster will likely be better (on paper at least) than this year?

how do the sox respond to this? do they look at what i am assuming is a down year for rev, crawl into shell and lower payroll? send out a solid rotation to front a team full of ? and "what if's"???

they cant possibly think the "lightening in a bottle" approach can consistently work in this division anymore, can they????

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
6 1/2 months till opening day. I have a feeling attendance is gonna be ugly next season..

I don't think so. Opening Day was pretty crowded this year, even after 2009. It was a lot of fun.

AlexRios51
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
Ah, well. 2 out of 3 would be nice.
It would be nice but theres no point now.
If that's the case then blow it up completely.
Yes, I'd die for a team like the rockies(offense wise that is).

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:29 PM
This has been a trend for years. Gardenhire OWNS Ozzie. Did you hear Ozzie's post game? He doesn't even know how far out we are.

I didn't hear it, but I doubt Ozzie really doesn't know how far out we are. He might say he doesn't, but he does. He also knows the season is over but he is not going to come out and say it.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
I'm glad I'll be really busy with school/work/internship, it always makes me focus a bit less on baseball.

My internship involves watching this crap, so I'm not quite free from that grasp.

soltrain21
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
And watch five more years of bad baseball? Hell no.

We are bad next year without konerko and no money.

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
Yea, bring everyone back.
Dump Morel and Flowers for 32 year old middle relievers.
Maybe we can send Sale for a tired pitcher on his last year of his contract
Get this team back to 86 wins.
Morel should take Teahen's place on the roster. Viciedo should take Kotsay's spot.

Dump Flowers while you still can get more than a broken maple bat for him.

rookie
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
I think someone needs to tell this organization to stop being afraid of the Twins every year! We'll never make the playoffs if we can't beat Twins! Something must be done!

That's basically what Bill Melton said. It's all mental. Other teams get the Twins out.

SoxandtheCityTee
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
112 people with no lives watching this thread.


:rolling:

Of course! That's what we all did after Game 163 -- got on the computer and went to a Twinkies fan website to read comments that we couldn't even respond to because we aren't registered there. :scratch:

DirtySox
09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
Here is what I want to know, why does Ozzie get the blame for everything and Kenny comes away scot-free? Kenny was the guy who thought Teahen could play third, that Brian Anderson would be a .270 hitter (and this was in 2009), that Wilson Betemit was a legit replacement for Juan Uribe, that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon could hold up the back end of the rotation last year, the list goes on and on.

They both suck and can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:32 PM
We are bad next year without konerko and no money.


I like PK and hope he's signed again, but I doubt he'd have 3-5 years like this one again.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:33 PM
I think someone needs to tell this organization to stop being afraid of the Twins every year! We'll never make the playoffs if we can't beat Twins! Something must be done!

I think this mindset has spread to the fanbase as well. I hate that I'm not surprised with tonight's outcome. I wish I was more optimistic when it comes to playing the Twins, but I'm not. Does anyone else feel that way?

slavko
09-14-2010, 11:33 PM
Sale needs to pitch a full season as a starter in the minors before we can even consider putting him in our rotation.

In another organization that would be the case. Here??????? I'm not ready to agree that he's Big Unit II.

Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

That's the problem with going all in. You don't have any money to play the next hand. And that's the only way KW thinks. I wouldn't want him working for me. Don't be surprised if he can move Teahen, tho. Or some of our "aces" or whatever we call somebody else's 3rd starters at WSI.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:33 PM
:rolling:

Of course! That's what we all did after Game 163 -- got on the computer and went to a Twinkies fan website to read comments that we couldn't even respond to because we aren't registered there. :scratch:

What website? :redneck

1989
09-14-2010, 11:33 PM
What about the other 10 ass kickings the twins handed us. How can you deny the twins own us?

Yeah those one run victories are just pure domination. What a juggernaut they have

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:34 PM
I think this mindset has spread to the fanbase as well. I hate that I'm not surprised with tonight's outcome. I wish I was more optimistic when it comes to playing the Twins, but I'm not. Does anyone else feel that way?


This season didn't go on the basis of the twins head to head, it was the ineptitude against the likes of KC, the Tigers, Cleveland , and Baltimore.

TDog
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
The sad thing is this was a winnable game. If Manny Ramirez does what everyone insists a real designated hitter does. If Alex Rios plays defense.

The White Sox loaded the bases in consecutive innings after Alexei Ramirez tied the game with a two-out hit. The first time with none out. The second time with one out. Out of that, they only scored one run. They twice had a runner on third with less than two outs who didn't score.

The Twins bullpen, which gets more work than the White Sox bullpen, pitched three scoreless innings. The White Sox bullpen gave up five runs in one inning before everyone's least favorite White Sox reliever, Scott Linebrink, pitched a scoreless ninth.

Maybe things would have been different if the White Sox didn't go out and get Manny Ramirez, who is bound to drive in a run before the year is out, considering he comes up with so many runners in scoring position. White Sox hitting hasn't been the same since, and it didn't need to slump because pitching hasn't been the same since.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
I like PK and hope he's signed again, but I doubt he'd have 3-5 years like this one again.

No, but he could have years like he did in '09 and that was a very productive year on a LOUSY team.

SoxSpeed22
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
No, I can't. But they're just the better team, the one team in the majors who's played .700+ baseball since the all-star break. It's not some deep seeded ineptitude by our manager.

But if it makes you feel better to point fingers, go with it.They are 40-16 since the break, like JB98 said. I can say they were the better team with a straight face.

This has been a trend for years. Gardenhire OWNS Ozzie. Did you hear Ozzie's post game? He doesn't even know how far out we are.It annoys me that Ozzie and Hawk kiss the Twins asses as much as they do. Even though I don't want to bring up Lovie Smith in this thread, when he first came into Chicago, he said the first goal was to beat the Packers when they were curb stomping the Bears every chance they got. I wish Ozzie or whoever else comes in (not likely) would feel the same way about the Twins.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
We are bad next year without konerko and no money.
I don't care. The last thing this organization needs right now is a team that everyone knows won't be competitive. I'm not saying the Cubs have a brighter future, but I really don't want popularity and attendance to go back to what they were in the late '90s.

TheOldRoman
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
this season will be a success if the Sox can win 90 gamesNo, this season will still be a failure. Sure, it kept us in the pennant race and gave us games to watch until the middle of September, but missing the playoffs is failure. Missing the playoffs with the highest payroll and most resources in the division is failure. Missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons with a payroll over $100 million is failure. Going 5-11 against the Twins is a failure. Going 7-8 against the Indians, 10-8 against the Royals and 3-4 against the Orioles are huge failures. This is just another season where the Sox should have won the division, but instead had a colossal team-wide, multiple month-long slump, gave games away throughout the season, and couldn't beat the Twins. These mighty Twins who the Sox can't possibly match up with, who always end up playing Ned Beatty's role from Deliverance come playoff time.

JB98
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Here is what I want to know, why does Ozzie get the blame for everything and Kenny comes away scot-free? Kenny was the guy who thought Teahen could play third, that Brian Anderson would be a .270 hitter (and this was in 2009), that Wilson Betemit was a legit replacement for Juan Uribe, that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon could hold up the back end of the rotation last year, the list goes on and on.

Because Kenny has a football mentality that Chicago fans love.

Our lack of organizational depth shows year after year. I think that's the biggest reason the Sox aren't able to make the playoffs more consistently.

The Sox have 10-15 guys on their roster who are really good players. I mean, really good players. But the bottom half of the roster is subpar. The minor leagues are subpar.

Over 162 games, it might take 30-35 players to get the job done. We lament all the time about how the Twins have guys come out of nowhere to help them. They have injuries; it doesn't even impact them. Well, that's because they have developed organizational depth. The Sox have not. That's shows up the second half of the season.

The Immigrant
09-14-2010, 11:36 PM
I think this mindset has spread to the fanbase as well. I hate that I'm not surprised with tonight's outcome. I wish I was more optimistic when it comes to playing the Twins, but I'm not. Does anyone else feel that way?

Of course. There's a reason we have trouble selling out late season home series against the Twins. It's not much fun sitting there watching your team piss down its leg.

nccwsfan
09-14-2010, 11:36 PM
6 1/2 months till opening day. I have a feeling attendance is gonna be ugly next season..

People say this every year when we've been eliminated (more or less), only to have Kenny put together a competitive ballclub. People will be back again and we'll be in the mix again come 2011. Tweaks need to be made, but a full-on overhaul won't and shouldn't happen.

Can't believe this has happened AGAIN (Twins dominance over us)!!!!
:scratch:

delben91
09-14-2010, 11:36 PM
Hell of a run boys. I'll still enjoy watching the last few weeks of the season. I always miss baseball when it's gone (even in 2007).

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:37 PM
Yeah those one run victories are just pure domination. What a juggernaut they have

I would argue the walkoff and tight games hurt more than these.

doublem23
09-14-2010, 11:37 PM
I don't disagree. We need a catcher and a left handed hitter. At this point, I would trade Buehrle to free up money for Victor Martinez. I could feel fine with Peavy Danks Floyd Edwin and Sale. Perfectly Fine.

You think Sale makes it 35 starts and 200 innings next year?

ohiosoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:37 PM
I've always been a supporter of Ozzie. . . but maybe its time for some new blood there-it seems like we are defeated before we take the field against Minn. and that comes from the top. Maybe a new attitude is needed to face them.

Tragg
09-14-2010, 11:37 PM
Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

Nice -Payroll is thin, but he can dump minimum salary stud young pitchers, for overpaid veteran pitchers....because we all know that Ozzie wants that veteran presence for the pennant race. We can spend nearly 2 mill on Kotsay, and $5 million on Teahen, but we can't afford to keep Pauli.
That's skillful salary allocation.

As for who's fault it is between Kenny or Ozzie....I don't know. But one of them needs to go. This duet isn't working.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:38 PM
No, this season will still be a failure. Sure, it kept us in the pennant race and gave us games to watch until the middle of September, but missing the playoffs is failure. Missing the playoffs with the highest payroll and most resources in the division is failure. Missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons with a payroll over $100 million is failure. Going 5-11 against the Twins is a failure. Going 7-8 against the Indians, 10-8 against the Royals and 3-4 against the Orioles are huge failures. This is just another season where the Sox should have won the division, but instead had a colossal team-wide, multiple month-long slump, gave games away throughout the season, and couldn't beat the Twins. These mighty Twins who the Sox can't possibly match up with, who always end up playing Ned Beatty's role from Deliverance come playoff time.

Isn't everyone who doesn't with the world series a "failure" each year. So lump the Twins in as one too(soon).

Nelfox02
09-14-2010, 11:38 PM
I'm starting to want that....

careful what you wish for

the thing is I dont have confindence that this team can even build itself up like that-----I dont have much faith in their ability even to draft and build up talent I dont see us becoming the AL central version of the Tampa Bay Rays

and you know what, why the **** do we even have to be the AL central version of the rays? we play in Chicago, its a huge market. Yeah we have the Flubs here, but you know what if the Sox would start even a consistent play off run the fan support would come quickly here, the Cubs are a bad team right now and figure to be one for at least another season, if not more

Sox---invest in your product, give us a winner for a few years and the fans will be there. 2006 did not prove this? Ownership is happy because they make money, fans are happy because we get winning baseball

Sox---dont invest in your product, lower your payroll and do stuff like let PK go expect the fans to stomach a crap replacement (Vicideo.....god no) Ownership can watch revenue diminsh and fans can me miserable with bad baseball

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:39 PM
You think Sale makes it 35 starts and 200 innings next year?

I know it's not directed at me, but there is no way that happens and Victor Martinez is a catcher in name only.

soxlady8
09-14-2010, 11:40 PM
I am just really sad.

I cannot really say anything better than what was already said.
But I will add some of my comments/thoughts-

This game could have been won and the guys did seem to
start out strong... then they ran out of gas.

I was excited initially about signing Manny but he has been less than stellar.

PK has been great this year and I think he deserves to be back with the team next year for at least another year. I hope KW finds some money
somewhere !

Bobby , I am sorry , but you have to go.

Omar should be back as a utility player.
Drop Kotsay and Teahen if possible.


I am going to bed feeling blah !!

Nelfox02
09-14-2010, 11:40 PM
Isn't everyone who doesn't with the world series a "failure" each year. So lump the Twins in as one too(soon).


obviously you are in it to win it, but I cant call a season in baseball where you are one of the 4 playoff teams a failure (just like I wont call one good, even with 90 wins, if you dont make the playoffs) Win the pennant and you had a great year, regardless of what happens in the world series....IMO

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-14-2010, 11:40 PM
Nice -Payroll is thin, but he can dump minimum salary stud young pitchers, for overpaid veteran pitchers. We can spend nearly 2 mill on Kotsay, and $5 million on Teahen, but we can't afford to keep Pauli.
That's skillful salary allocation.

If I remember correctly, the only time people were calling Hudson a "stud" was immediately after they traded him.

People were quite vocal about trading him while his value was high earlier in the year.

1989
09-14-2010, 11:41 PM
Kenny has already said that payroll will be thin and Mark Gonzalez doesn't think that the White Sox will have the money to re-sign Paulie. If that is the case it will be in part because we have eight million dollars invested in Edwin Jackson for next year and because of the weird clauses in it we still owe Manny money next year too.

If that's the case, then KW should submit his letter of resignation now. He's done an absolutely god awful job this year constructing the team.

And Next year is the year to push in all your chips, not begin opening day with another incomplete roster. With the rotation we will have, there is no excuse putting a team out there that isn't a World Series contender. None.

AlexRios51
09-14-2010, 11:42 PM
man, Twins ****ing own us, ****ing own us

and the scary thing is people---they only stand to get better. new park, tons of money coming in, as always they have solid looking young players.......they will always be hampered by the size of the market they play in yes....but is there any doubt the Twins roster will likely be better (on paper at least) than this year?

how do the sox respond to this? do they look at what i am assuming is a down year for rev, crawl into shell and lower payroll? send out a solid rotation to front a team full of ? and "what if's"???

they cant possibly think the "lightening in a bottle" approach can consistently work in this division anymore, can they????

Like this since Jerry always says money isn't an issue and mlb doesn't have a salary cap(yet).

C V-mart
1B Konerko or Viciedo
2B Beckham
SS Ramirez
3B Beltre or Morel
LF Pierre
CF Rios
RF Hawpe
DH Teahen( we have to put the dud somewhere)

Bullpen
Frank Francisco
Sale
Thornton
Linebrink
Pena
Putz
Santos

Minus Jenks $7.5MM, A.J $6.8MM, CQ $3.2MM, Kotsay $1.5MM, Vizquel $1.4MM, Garcia $1MM) Somewhere near $20MM of the books.

It would be one hell of a team salary but this is the only way I see the Sox competing next year.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:42 PM
I think this mindset has spread to the fanbase as well. I hate that I'm not surprised with tonight's outcome. I wish I was more optimistic when it comes to playing the Twins, but I'm not. Does anyone else feel that way?

Sadly, yes. It seems it started when Jenks blew the save up in Minny.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2010, 11:42 PM
Well it was nice while it lasted. Again in a big spot the Twins get in their heads and they blow another game to them when leading in the 7th inning or later.

Adding insult to injury is the fact that they couldn't score runs with less than two out and guys at 3rd base.

Oh well...three more wins to a winning season.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
09-14-2010, 11:42 PM
I don't know why I am so pissed right now when the season ended in the last game in Detroit, but I am.
Way to step up down the stretch Danks and Floyd. :rolleyes:

Thanks god we went all the way in 2005 because the Twins are our daddy and it is only going to get worse.

Dan H
09-14-2010, 11:42 PM
In a way, it is a relief. Now we don't have to kid ourselves about this team having any kind of chance.

It is time for some big time changes. Ozzie and Kenny both have to go. If the organization doesn't realize that they are part of the problem not any answer or solution, then this team will continue to underachieve. The hard fact is that the club just hasn't been very good since the all-star break in '06. And no one should be too impressed with the division crown in '08. That club was not elite AL team. 89 wins usually doesn't even win a wild card, and the Sox needed the 163rd game to get that.

The White Sox have gotten to point B and have stayed there. That works for Cub fans. It doesn't work for me.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:43 PM
If that's the case, then KW should submit his letter of resignation now. He's done an absolutely god awful job this year constructing the team.

And Next year is the year to push in all your chips, not begin opening day with another incomplete roster. With the rotation we will have, there is no excuse putting a team out there that isn't a World Series contender. None.


Oddly enough the throwaway choice to Pick up Omar worked out very well, and I'd rather see him at 3b before Teahen again.

TheOldRoman
09-14-2010, 11:43 PM
Isn't everyone who doesn't with the world series a "failure" each year. So lump the Twins in as one too(soon).Not necessarily. Unless you are the Yankees, making the playoffs is a successful season. A Padres team expected to lose 100 having a winning season is a success. Teams with lesser talent and lesser resources can claim a good year for lesser accomplishments. But having a payroll over $100 million each of the last 5 years and making the playoffs once is inexcusable.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Sadly, yes. It seems it started when Jenks blew the save up in Minny.
It goes WAY beyond that. Until the Twins become awful again, EVERYONE who supports this team will think this.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Nice -Payroll is thin, but he can dump minimum salary stud young pitchers, for overpaid veteran pitchers....because we all know that Ozzie wants that veteran presence for the pennant race. We can spend nearly 2 mill on Kotsay, and $5 million on Teahen, but we can't afford to keep Pauli.
That's skillful salary allocation.

As for who's fault it is between Kenny or Ozzie....I don't know. But one of them needs to go. This duet isn't working.

Now, to be fair to Kenny (and I am NO fan of Kenny), he still might re-sign Konerko in which case my argument is moot. I hope that that is what happens, but I have my doubts.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Don't worry everybody. This wasn't a must-win, and Ozzie thinks it's not impossible to come back if we lose one of the next two. Still a lot of season left.

Dibbs
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
With Ozzie making the lineups??? Fat chance!

But yes, Morel and Viciedo should play just about every game for the rest of this season.

Maybe next year!

Who would have thought Manny is as bad as Mark Kotsay. Not looking good for next year either. Kenny handcuffed us with that Edwin Jackson. Maybe we can unload him and others.

Soxman219
09-14-2010, 11:45 PM
I think this mindset has spread to the fanbase as well. I hate that I'm not surprised with tonight's outcome. I wish I was more optimistic when it comes to playing the Twins, but I'm not. Does anyone else feel that way?

I was more optimistic, I thought we would win tonight. I'm never afraid of the Twins, they are beatable just like every other team in baseball.

DirtySox
09-14-2010, 11:45 PM
Because Kenny has a football mentality that Chicago fans love.

Our lack of organizational depth shows year after year. I think that's the biggest reason the Sox aren't able to make the playoffs more consistently.

The Sox have 10-15 guys on their roster who are really good players. I mean, really good players. But the bottom half of the roster is subpar. The minor leagues are subpar.

Over 162 games, it might take 30-35 players to get the job done. We lament all the time about how the Twins have guys come out of nowhere to help them. They have injuries; it doesn't even impact them. Well, that's because they have developed organizational depth. The Sox have not. That's shows up the second half of the season.

Bingo.

I hate that ****ing mentality. I don't care that Kenny has balls. Sometimes its wise to do nothing.

The Twins know what they are doing organizationally. What is even scarier is that their payroll has climbed significantly and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. Couple a large payroll with the proven ability to develop players internally and Minny might be a scary foe for years to come.

Carolina Kenny
09-14-2010, 11:45 PM
tehan, kotsay, you are supposed to win a pennant with that garbage?

The Twins have some dude named Valencia at third, a rookie.

We have a 45 year old, Teahen, The Cuban Tank, and Morel, who isn't given a chance.

Kotsay at DH, will go on the Tombstone of the 2010 Sox. This is a disaster, Kenny needs to take his massive ego and stow it.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:45 PM
Don't worry everybody. This wasn't a must-win, and Ozzie thinks it's not impossible to come back if we lose one of the next two. Still a lot of season left.


I actually could see the Twins losing 8 of 10, but I don't see the Sox playing well enough to capitalize on it.

Zisk77
09-14-2010, 11:46 PM
I know it's not directed at me, but there is no way that happens and Victor Martinez is a catcher in name only.


Agree, I would love him as a dh, 1b, and only a 2nd catcher...or 3rd.

Oh, and Chris Sale will be the closer next year, not a starter. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

DrCrawdad
09-14-2010, 11:46 PM
Here is what I want to know, why does Ozzie get the blame for everything and Kenny comes away scot-free? Kenny was the guy who thought Teahen could play third, that Brian Anderson would be a .270 hitter (and this was in 2009), that Wilson Betemit was a legit replacement for Juan Uribe, that Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon could hold up the back end of the rotation last year, the list goes on and on.

I don't follow Betemit closely but from what I've seen of his stats this year in games against the Sox then KW was on to something with WB, but it just didn't work out here, unfortunately.

The sad thing is this was a winnable game. If Manny Ramirez does what everyone insists a real designated hitter does. If Alex Rios plays defense.

The White Sox loaded the bases in consecutive innings after Alexei Ramirez tied the game with a two-out hit. The first time with none out. The second time with one out. Out of that, they only scored one run. They twice had a runner on third with less than two outs who didn't score.

The Twins bullpen, which gets more work than the White Sox bullpen, pitched three scoreless innings. The White Sox bullpen gave up five runs in one inning before everyone's least favorite White Sox reliever, Scott Linebrink, pitched a scoreless ninth.

Maybe things would have been different if the White Sox didn't go out and get Manny Ramirez, who is bound to drive in a run before the year is out, considering he comes up with so many runners in scoring position. White Sox hitting hasn't been the same since, and it didn't need to slump because pitching hasn't been the same since.

The Sox offense is so maddeningly, frustratingly inconsistent. The BP flopped when it hurt the most. Manny and the rotating DH before he came on board, both failed, failed miserably.

They are 40-16 since the break, like JB98 said. I can say they were the better team with a straight face.

It annoys me that Ozzie and Hawk kiss the Twins asses as much as they do. Even though I don't want to bring up Lovie Smith in this thread, when he first came into Chicago, he said the first goal was to beat the Packers when they were curb stomping the Bears every chance they got. I wish Ozzie or whoever else comes in (not likely) would feel the same way about the Twins.

Yeah, the Twins are clearly the better team. It's undeniable.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2010, 11:47 PM
Just realized something which caused me to do a double take. This is the 5th game this year, just against the Twins, the Sox have wound up losing when having a lead in the 7th inning or later.

For some reason I'm hearing "Mind Games" by John Lennon playing in my head.

Lip

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:47 PM
no, this season will still be a failure. Sure, it kept us in the pennant race and gave us games to watch until the middle of september, but missing the playoffs is failure. Missing the playoffs with the highest payroll and most resources in the division is failure. Missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons with a payroll over $100 million is failure. Going 5-11 against the twins is a failure. Going 7-8 against the indians, 10-8 against the royals and 3-4 against the orioles are huge failures. This is just another season where the sox should have won the division, but instead had a colossal team-wide, multiple month-long slump, gave games away throughout the season, and couldn't beat the twins. these mighty twins who the sox can't possibly match up with, who always end up playing ned beatty's role from deliverance come playoff time.

lol!

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:47 PM
Don't worry everybody. This wasn't a must-win, and Ozzie thinks it's not impossible to come back if we lose one of the next two. Still a lot of season left.

Did he really say that? Lulz.

Carolina Kenny
09-14-2010, 11:47 PM
Bingo.

I hate that ****ing mentality. I don't care that Kenny has balls. Sometimes its wise to do nothing.

The Twins know what they are doing organizationally. What is even scarier is that their payroll has climbed significantly and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. Couple a large payroll with the proven ability to develop players internally and Minny might be a scary foe for years to come.

Minny will dominate the next decade and we will be looking at their behinds for years to come. The Sox systems blows. Uncle Jerry should sell now.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:48 PM
In a way, it is a relief. Now we don't have to kid ourselves about this team having any kind of chance.

It is time for some big time changes. Ozzie and Kenny both have to go. If the organization doesn't realize that they are part of the problem not any answer or solution, then this team will continue to underachieve. The hard fact is that the club just hasn't been very good since the all-star break in '06. And no one should be too impressed with the division crown in '08. That club was not elite AL team. 89 wins usually doesn't even win a wild card, and the Sox needed the 163rd game to get that.

Whatever. The '08 team could have easily gone to the ALCS if Quentin, Crede and Contreras weren't done for the season and Konerko wasn't so banged up. It's also lame to say the team "hasn't been any good" since the ASB in 2006.

I think Ozzie's time has come, much in the same way Manuel's time was at hand after the 2003 season.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Did he really say that? Lulz.

Postgame press conference.

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Just realized something which caused me to do a double take. This is the 5th game this year, just against the Twins, the Sox have wound up losing when having a lead in the 7th inning or later.

For some reason I'm hearing "Mind Games" by John Lennon playing in my head.

Lip


I wouldn't use mind games as an excuse for failure to execute. That gives the sox too much credit, they've failed as much against the tigers and orioles.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Bingo.

I hate that ****ing mentality. I don't care that Kenny has balls. Sometimes its wise to do nothing.

The Twins know what they are doing organizationally. What is even scarier is that their payroll has climbed significantly and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. Couple a large payroll with the proven ability to develop players internally and Minny might be a scary foe for years to come.


For doub (sorry don't feel like double qouting from my phone), I don't think Sale goes 200IP, but I don't think he needs to as a 5th SP. Obviously from my Sig, I am a huge Burls fan, I was just saying how much we need a lefty hitter. As a 5th SP, I could take 27-28 starts and 160-170 IP.

For this post, I strongly feel we could do alright next year going with Omar as a manager and a new hitting coach. I also think Rick Hahn is going to be a hell of a GM, and I really hope its with us.

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Minny will dominate the next decade and we will be looking at their behinds for years to come. The Sox systems blows. Uncle Jerry should sell now.
He's going to hold onto the Sox and Bulls until the day he dies, after which his son Michael will take over.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Hell of a run boys. I'll still enjoy watching the last few weeks of the season. I always miss baseball when it's gone (even in 2007).

+1. Also want to keep watching Paulie as long as I can, tho I'm holding out hope they will sign him.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:49 PM
I actually could see the Twins losing 8 of 10, but I don't see the Sox playing well enough to capitalize on it.

If that happens, you know this Sox team is just primed and ready to lose the division by one game. Story of the season.

Wickel
09-14-2010, 11:50 PM
I've always been a supporter of Ozzie. . . but maybe its time for some new blood there-it seems like we are defeated before we take the field against Minn. and that comes from the top. Maybe a new attitude is needed to face them.

Believe you me, Ozzie's done a great job with what management has handed him. The problem lies squarely with Kenny Williams. An earlier post in this thread stated he has a "football mentality," and that's absolutely correct. Even way out West in New Mexico, I've always admired what Manny Ramirez did with the Red Sox, and then with the Dodgers, but Kenny had no business bringing him to Chicago, what with all the turmoil in the bullpen. Shoring up the bullpen instead could have--would have--made all the difference in the world. Here's hoping we can take two out of three and cross our fingers. In the immortal words of Yogi: "It ain't over till it's over!!!"

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:50 PM
Don't worry everybody. This wasn't a must-win, and Ozzie thinks it's not impossible to come back if we lose one of the next two. Still a lot of season left.

Would you prefer if he said "Well that's it! We're done!"

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:51 PM
Would you prefer if he said "Well that's it! We're done!"
That would be interesting, but I'm guessing he'd be out of a job after that.

tstrike2000
09-14-2010, 11:52 PM
I think Ozzie's time has come, much in the same way Manuel's time was at hand after the 2003 season.

You're really in the fire Ozzie crowd? For some reason, I'm somewhat surprised by that.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:52 PM
Would you prefer if he said "Well that's it! We're done!"

Kind of, yeah.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:52 PM
Would you prefer if he said "Well that's it! We're done!"

I'd like him to say, with some urgency, that the Sox need to win the next two games and not act like its a May series against the Mariners.

Wickel
09-14-2010, 11:53 PM
Who do the Twins face after this series?

DickAllen72
09-14-2010, 11:53 PM
Minny will dominate the next decade and we will be looking at their behinds for years to come. The Sox systems blows. Uncle Jerry should sell now.
I wish some multi-billionaire who is looking for a new hobby buys the Sox. Instead of getting guys like Manny, Griffey Jr. and Thome when they are on their last legs it would be nice to acquire players like that in their prime.

gaelhound
09-14-2010, 11:53 PM
I still got half way to Saint Patrick's day! I love my team, I am ready for hot stove. Whats new with the Blackhawks?

thomas35forever
09-14-2010, 11:54 PM
Who do the Twins face after this series?
http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=min

Patrick134
09-14-2010, 11:54 PM
You're really in the fire Ozzie crowd? For some reason, I'm somewhat surprised by that.


People underestimated the talent of the Sox early, then they got hot. Other managers may have not held the team together. The team had no DH, that's more Kenny than Ozzie, but some of both. Managersd alwys get too much credit/blame anyway.

Brian26
09-14-2010, 11:55 PM
You're really in the fire Ozzie crowd? For some reason, I'm somewhat surprised by that.

I think he's lost the team and thrown in the towel much the same way Manuel did at the end of 2003.

Soxman219
09-14-2010, 11:56 PM
At least the Bulls and Blackhawks will be good this winter.

Nelfox02
09-14-2010, 11:56 PM
would be nice to acquire players like that in their prime.


amen to this

When was the last time the sox acquired a star position player that was in prime? Belle?

soltrain21
09-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Something needs to change. If it's Ozzie, it's Ozzie. If it's KW it's KW.

Boondock Saint
09-14-2010, 11:58 PM
Something needs to change. If it's Ozzie, it's Ozzie. If it's KW it's KW.

Please let it be Ozzie.

tstrike2000
09-14-2010, 11:58 PM
I think he's lost the team and thrown in the towel much the same way Manuel did at the end of 2003.

Well, I do agree that something's gotta change and Ozzie's a start.

1989
09-14-2010, 11:58 PM
Would you prefer if he said "Well that's it! We're done!"

I'd actually prefer if he brought the whole team some 'Hi C' and some orange slices

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2010, 11:59 PM
I think he's lost the team and thrown in the towel much the same way Manuel did at the end of 2003.

I'm mixed on Ozzie, but he held the team together when it should have fallen apart. I'm sentimental for Ozzie and like him a lot (I think it's no coincidence that he has gotten the most out of Kenny's teams), but I think his time here is coming to an end. If he can't make the playoffs next year, he should definitely be gone.

GoGoCrede
09-14-2010, 11:59 PM
I'd actually prefer if he brought the whole team some 'Hi C' and some orange slices

:rolling: Or some Capri Suns.

Tragg
09-14-2010, 11:59 PM
Don't worry everybody. This wasn't a must-win, and Ozzie thinks it's not impossible to come back if we lose one of the next two. Still a lot of season left.
Fantastic

Maybe he can bunt us in 10 runs tomorrow night.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:00 AM
Well, I do agree that something's gotta change and Ozzie's a start.

It's a top down kind of thing, if Ozzie is going to go, so should Kenny. He built this team.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2010, 12:00 AM
Thomas:

Just FYI.

As recently as May 2004 when JR appeared on Chicago Tonight on channel 11 he told host Bob Sirott that his family wasn't interesting in retaining ownership of the Sox after he is gone. I've got the tape of that show.

Lip

Marqhead
09-15-2010, 12:01 AM
Just got back from the game. We bought tickets on a whim hoping this might be the game to start the come back. Ended up being the "fork" game for me.

You could tell the crowd knew the season was at the plate with the bases loaded and 1 out for both PK and Manny, too bad they couldn't do anything with it.

Still going on Saturday for sure, and I'll probably scoop up free tickets from whoever is dropping them. Time to enjoy the end of summer, and the end of the Sox season. It was a fun albeit frustrating ride.

tstrike2000
09-15-2010, 12:01 AM
Fantastic

Maybe he can bunt us in 10 runs tomorrow night.

Hey, why not? Better then watching our 4 and 5 hitters strike out with the bases loaded.

Dan H
09-15-2010, 12:02 AM
Whatever. The '08 team could have easily gone to the ALCS if Quentin, Crede and Contreras weren't done for the season and Konerko wasn't so banged up. It's also lame to say the team "hasn't been any good" since the ASB in 2006.

I think Ozzie's time has come, much in the same way Manuel's time was at hand after the 2003 season.

They had two losing seasons in '07 and '09. The last half of '06 was sub-.500. This year was only saved by a 31-game hot streak.

Crede and Contreras were physical question marks when the season began, and the White Sox knew it. It was obvious Konerko was hurting but they kept sending him out there and by mid August he had a average in the 190's. That was real smart. And the Central was weak that year. Sorry, I wasn't impressed.

Well, at least we agree about Ozzie. And except for Cooper, he can take the rest of the coaching staff with him.

Boondock Saint
09-15-2010, 12:02 AM
It's a top down kind of thing, if Ozzie is going to go, so should Kenny. He built this team.

This team has more talent on it than most, and Kenny is the reason for that. Ozzie's decisions have been a thorn in the team's side for a couple years now.

thomas35forever
09-15-2010, 12:02 AM
Thomas:

Just FYI.

As recently as May 2004 when JR appeared on Chicago Tonight on channel 11 he told host Bob Sirott that his family wasn't interesting in retaining ownership of the Sox after he is gone. I've got the tape of that show.

Lip
How about this story that just came out?
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/reinsdorf_president_100913.html

southsideirish71
09-15-2010, 12:04 AM
Please let it be Ozzie.

It should be both.

We have a manager who is trying to play NL baseball in the AL.
And we have a GM who has a 5 year plan. It surrounds the aquisition of recent Royals players and Indian players from the 90s, but its a 5 year plan.

Its time to invest some in the draft, develop some talent on our own and find players that are part of a long term strategy. The days of outspending our division are over.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:05 AM
This team has more talent on it than most, and Kenny is the reason for that. Ozzie's decisions have been a thorn in the team's side for a couple years now.

Yep, starting Teahen at third and signing off on Kotsay and Jones for DH (and then pinning it all on Ozzie when it failed) and handcuffing the team financially sure did work out! Kenny was also hugely responsible for the flaws of the '09 team, the '07 disaster and was the guy who thought Swisher could play CF and leadoff.

tstrike2000
09-15-2010, 12:06 AM
It's a top down kind of thing, if Ozzie is going to go, so should Kenny. He built this team.

Well, a lot of lessons here. I think JB mentioned and I agree that we love KW's aggressive nature, but getting the same kind of has-beens and never-will-be's outside of Vizquel have hurt the club just to name one.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2010, 12:08 AM
Thomas:

It doesn't say anywhere in the story that he is going to be running the White Sox does it?

Seriously I'm just passing along what the man said himself and I assume he should know.

And I also have it from two sources, a person who worked for both Veeck and the Reinsdorf-Einhorn combo and the second a member of the media, that the family is not interested in running the White Sox.

Anything can change however but to me it seems that the Bulls with a salary cap are the type of operation the family would like to be a part of, that fits their style of ownership. MLB is a totally different animal.

Lip

tstrike2000
09-15-2010, 12:09 AM
This team has more talent on it than most, and Kenny is the reason for that. Ozzie's decisions have been a thorn in the team's side for a couple years now.

One of a couple of reasons why I think Ozzie's time here is gonna be done.

1989
09-15-2010, 12:09 AM
Minny will dominate the next decade and we will be looking at their behinds for years to come. The Sox systems blows. Uncle Jerry should sell now.

More like the next century

AlexRios51
09-15-2010, 12:10 AM
Yep, starting Teahen at third and signing off on Kotsay and Jones for DH (and then pinning it all on Ozzie when it failed) and handcuffing the team financially sure did work out! Kenny was also hugely responsible for the flaws of the '09 team, the '07 disaster and was the guy who thought Swisher could play CF and leadoff.
Ozzie did publicly say he wanted kotsay back, which was ok for a bench role not to start. The only thing I will blame on kenny is Teahen.

thomas35forever
09-15-2010, 12:10 AM
Thomas:

It doesn't say anywhere in the story that he is going to be running the White Sox does it?

Seriously I'm just passing along what the man said himself and I assume he should know.

And I also have it from two sources, a person who worked for both Veeck and the Reinsdorf-Einhorn combo and the second a member of the media, that the family is not interested in running the White Sox.

Anything can change however but to me it seems that the Bulls with a salary cap are the type of operation the family would like to be a part of, that fits their style of ownership. MLB is a totally different animal.

Lip
Okay, that's fine. I'm just saying to another poster that Reinsdorf is gonna be the owner as long as he's breathing.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2010, 12:13 AM
The KW debate is a good one.

He did botch 2007 with his misguided philosophy of 'hard throwing bullpen arms' who couldn't get ahead in the count, threw almost nothing but fastballs and got lit up like it was Christmas.

He botched 2009 when he refused to participate in a buyers market for free agents instead thinking that Contreras and Colon could handle 40% of the starting rotation. As well as filling out the roster with stiffs like Betemit, Miller, Wise and their ilk.

But to be fair, Kenny has to keep bringing in long shot's, guys with injury problems and hope to catch lightening in a bottle because he's never had the handcuffs removed budget wise that enables him to go after the top level of free agent and to fill the vast majority of holes the club has every season.

Not saying he's had a bad budget, not at all, but to get the elite free agents, in quantity... you have to have a much larger payroll than ownership has given him.

Lip

1989
09-15-2010, 12:13 AM
At least the Bulls and Blackhawks will be good this winter.

And Illinois basketball

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:13 AM
Hey, why not? Better then watching our 4 and 5 hitters strike out with the bases loaded.


Isn't that the truth. At the risk of upsetting the baseball traditionalists, I wouldn't have taken the bat out of Alexi's hands. He did his job, bunted and moved the runners over. But, who knows, with the tear he's been on, he very well could have cleared the bases with an extra-base hit, or better yet, a homer.

doublem23
09-15-2010, 12:13 AM
Thomas:

It doesn't say anywhere in the story that he is going to be running the White Sox does it?

Seriously I'm just passing along what the man said himself and I assume he should know.

And I also have it from two sources, a person who worked for both Veeck and the Reinsdorf-Einhorn combo and the second a member of the media, that the family is not interested in running the White Sox.

Anything can change however but to me it seems that the Bulls with a salary cap are the type of operation the family would like to be a part of, that fits their style of ownership. MLB is a totally different animal.

Lip

Yeah we'll never win a World Series with Reinsdorf calling the shots.

Gavin
09-15-2010, 12:14 AM
Manny Ramirez is a bum. Three Ks with guys in scoring position. Was he ever good? :scratch:

I hate heading to the train before the game is over but I held off after Putz walked in a run. After he gave up a 2 run double, I had enough.

A fitting end to a frustrating season, I guess.

doublem23
09-15-2010, 12:14 AM
At least the Bulls and Blackhawks will be good this winter.

And Illinois basketball

Wrong forum, guys.

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:15 AM
And Illinois basketball

You mean New Mexico Lobo basketball!:D::D:

Boondock Saint
09-15-2010, 12:15 AM
Yep, starting Teahen at third and signing off on Kotsay and Jones for DH (and then pinning it all on Ozzie when it failed) and handcuffing the team financially sure did work out! Kenny was also hugely responsible for the flaws of the '09 team, the '07 disaster and was the guy who thought Swisher could play CF and leadoff.

Danks, Floyd, Jackson, Rios, Putz, Thornton, Alexei, Santos and more are all Kenny Williams acquisitions. This team is in an ugly place without those players.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:16 AM
Well, a lot of lessons here. I think JB mentioned and I agree that we love KW's aggressive nature, but getting the same kind of has-beens and never-will-be's outside of Vizquel have hurt the club just to name one.

Here is my view on Kenny, he ALWAYS goes for these lightening in a bottle guys and once (2005) they ALL worked out, once (2007) none of them worked out. Other wise you get a mixed bag which leads to mediocrity. Also when you look at his quotes and the teams he assembled before Ozzie came over, defense was a totally foreign concept to him. Up the middle in '03 for example we had Jose Valentine at short, an aged Roberto Alomar at second and Carl Everett in CF, he was even quoted as saying "I don't care if we come last in defense, our offense should be able to overcome our defensive shortcomings." Then in '05 he said "We decided to build a team around pitching and defense," which to me is like "Uh...you JUST figured out that pitching and defense wins championships?" I like Kenny's "every year is a championship year" mentality, but as someone else here said when you go all in every year it can back fire and you lose a lot more than you win. That is certainly the case with Kenny.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Minny will dominate the next decade and we will be looking at their behinds for years to come. The Sox systems blows. Uncle Jerry should sell now.Yeah, we all heard this bull**** before on these boards. After 2007, after 2009, many times before. The Sox "aren't going to compete for several years," they're going to slowly progress into a 40 win team, etc. It is all nonsense.

Procol Harum
09-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Well, whatcha gonna do?

Sadly, I think that fixing this thing is gonna be a big chore--good luck, Kenny. The bullpen is full of holes; Danks and Floyd took a real step back in crunch time in the last 2-3 weeks; Buerhle now a slightly above average pitcher; Peavy's future in grave doubt; an irritatingly inconsistent team defense; a sputtering offense that functions at its worst with men at second and third, and one out or less; a lack of overall success against division opponents, and a long track record of failure against our chief rival; and, a mediocre crop of talent in a farm system that doesn't seem to teach fundamentals very well.

At least I'm anticipating a tremendous crop of churros in 2011... :(:

Lip Man 1
09-15-2010, 12:17 AM
Double:

Not sure what your point is.

Simply responding to Thomas in his original statement that the Reinsdorf family is going to own the Sox after he leaves the scene. As I said earlier, the man himself said the family has no interest in doing so.

I didn't say that was good or bad, just that the latest info I've seen and been told indicates otherwise.

Time will tell however and we'll see.

Lip

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:18 AM
Danks, Floyd, Jackson, Rios, Putz, Thornton, Alexei, Santos and more are all Kenny Williams acquisitions. This team is in an ugly place without those players.

And he brought us Manny, tying up lots of $$$ along with the acquisition of Jackson. Bad moves, IMHO.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:18 AM
Danks, Floyd, Jackson, Rios, Putz, Thornton, Alexei, Santos and more are all Kenny Williams acquisitions. This team is in an ugly place without those players.

No doubt about it Kenny has made some great moves, but he has also made some really lousy moves. I just posted a long post explaining my own views on Kenny as a GM, I think he is every bit as big of a problem as Ozzie is, in fact I think he is even more of a problem.

Gavin
09-15-2010, 12:19 AM
Here is my view on Kenny, he ALWAYS goes for these lightening in a bottle guys and once (2005) they ALL worked out, once (2007) none of them worked out. Other wise you get a mixed bag which leads to mediocrity. Also when you look at his quotes and the teams he assembled before Ozzie came over, defense was a totally foreign concept to him. Up the middle in '03 for example we had Jose Valentine at short, an aged Roberto Alomar at second and Carl Everett in CF, he was even quoted as saying "I don't care if we come last in defense, our offense should be able to overcome our defensive shortcomings." Then in '05 he said "We decided to build a team around pitching and defense," which to me is like "Uh...you JUST figured out that pitching and defense wins championships?" I like Kenny's "every year is a championship year" mentality, but as someone else here said when you go all in every year it can back fire and you lose a lot more than you win. That is certainly the case with Kenny.

1) It's Jose Valentin
2) It was only in 04 that we acquired Roberto Alomar,
3) Everett wasn't even on the team until '05

Jesus

thomas35forever
09-15-2010, 12:20 AM
1) It's Jose Valentin
2) It was only in 04 that we acquired Roberto Alomar,
3) Everett wasn't even on the team until '05

Jesus
Wrong. Alomar and Everett were both acquired in '03 and then again in '04.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:21 AM
1) It's Jose Valentin
2) It was only in 04 that we acquired Roberto Alomar,
3) Everett wasn't even on the team until '05

Jesus

Wrong and wrong. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2003.shtml

Gavin
09-15-2010, 12:22 AM
I was wrong.

Boondock Saint
09-15-2010, 12:22 AM
And he brought us Manny, tying up lots of $$$ along with the acquisition of Jackson. Bad moves, IMHO.

I love these kind of hindsight posts. Most people on here were doing a happy dance when we got Manny, saying that our DH woes were over. But now that it looks like the division is lost, people are changing their tune. You can't have it both ways. If Kenny doesn't get Manny, it's "Kenny is letting Ozzie's rotating DH system ruin our season". But now that he got a DH and it didn't work out, it's "Kenny is handcuffing the team!"

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:26 AM
Yeah, we all heard this bull**** before on these boards. After 2007, after 2009, many times before. The Sox "aren't going to compete for several years," they're going to slowly progress into a 40 win team, etc. It is all nonsense.

In Kenny you trust--I don't. He's facing some major problems ahead, problems he could have avoided with some logical moves at the trading deadline. The bullpens has been atrocious down the stretch--an obvious hole he could have plugged. We can only hope he addresses this in the future.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:26 AM
I love these kind of hindsight posts. Most people on here were doing a happy dance when we got Manny, saying that our DH woes were over. But now that it looks like the division is lost, people are changing their tune. You can't have it both ways. If Kenny doesn't get Manny, it's "Kenny is letting Ozzie's rotating DH system ruin our season". But now that he got a DH and it didn't work out, it's "Kenny is handcuffing the team!"

There were a LOT of people who were saying it was too little too late and even then people were wondering what exactly Manny would bring to the table offensively. I thought Manny would contribute a lot more offensively but I thought at the time the problem was with the bullpen and strangely, not the offense.

JB98
09-15-2010, 12:28 AM
I love these kind of hindsight posts. Most people on here were doing a happy dance when we got Manny, saying that our DH woes were over. But now that it looks like the division is lost, people are changing their tune. You can't have it both ways. If Kenny doesn't get Manny, it's "Kenny is letting Ozzie's rotating DH system ruin our season". But now that he got a DH and it didn't work out, it's "Kenny is handcuffing the team!"


I, for one, am sticking by my story that Ramirez was worth the try. It was a "Hail Mary." Like most Hail Marys, it fell incomplete.

That money is not "handcuffing" the organization. Most of it is deferred and it's a drop in the bucket in the big picture.

If this organization does not retain Konerko, it won't be because of the Manny Experiment. The Sox do have a lot of money invested in their pitching staff. I can't say that's necessarily a bad thing. It remains to be seen whether they can assemble a better group of position players for 2011 than the one they had this season.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:29 AM
In Kenny you trust--I don't. He's facing some major problems ahead, problems he could have avoided with some logical moves at the trading deadline. The bullpens has been atrocious down the stretch--an obvious hole he could have plugged. We can only hope he addresses this in the future.

The problem wasn't with the bullpen at the trading deadline though, I don't blame him for not addressing that in July, but when guys like Fuentes were passing through on waivers as we were losing guys like Thornton and Putz were going on the DL, THAT was mind boggling. Trading for a high ceiling guy for an expensive guy with a less than stellar track record is a head scratcher, that coupled with his track record though doesn't reflect very well on him in my book. But my opinion doesn't matter, only Jerry Reisendorf's does.

JB98
09-15-2010, 12:31 AM
There were a LOT of people who were saying it was too little too late and even then people were wondering what exactly Manny would bring to the table offensively. I thought Manny would contribute a lot more offensively but I thought at the time the problem was with the bullpen and strangely, not the offense.

A lot of people thought the bullpen was the problem. As it turns out, the bullpen hasn't lost a game for the Sox in over three weeks. August 22 was the last bullpen loss, and that was Linebrink coughing one up in extra innings.

People got all hot and bothered about Fuentes, who has appeared in a grand total of three games for the Twins. He's made even less impact for them than Manny has for the Sox. Fuentes has missed time with injury since joining Minnesota.

Tragg
09-15-2010, 12:32 AM
Williams' trades have basically sucked for the last 2 years.....maybe 3.

TDog
09-15-2010, 12:33 AM
... Kotsay at DH, will go on the Tombstone of the 2010 Sox. This is a disaster, Kenny needs to take his massive ego and stow it.

The White Sox were in first place with Kotsay leading the team in games at DH. The White Sox fell out of first place during a month when they led the league in runs scored. The offense wasn't a problem.

Manny Ramirez has been a bigger disaster at DH than anyone else the White Sox have put out there. And he came to the team as a .300 hitter.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:34 AM
A lot of people thought the bullpen was the problem. As it turns out, the bullpen hasn't lost a game for the Sox in over three weeks. August 22 was the last bullpen loss, and that was Linebrink coughing one up in extra innings.

Well, there was tonight too, the pen helped blow this game open. They could have gotten a guy like Fuentes, but were relying on guys like Lucas Harrell and Carlos Torres instead.

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:34 AM
I love these kind of hindsight posts. Most people on here were doing a happy dance when we got Manny, saying that our DH woes were over. But now that it looks like the division is lost, people are changing their tune. You can't have it both ways. If Kenny doesn't get Manny, it's "Kenny is letting Ozzie's rotating DH system ruin our season". But now that he got a DH and it didn't work out, it's "Kenny is handcuffing the team!"

I said nothing of the sort. IMO, Ozzie's DH situation wasn't the best, but it sufficed. This team needed help in the bullpen--period. To go out and recklessly sign an aging superstar with his fingers crossed was absurd. Take a look at what he did with Jackson. He signs him and his monstrous salary in an attempt to lure the Nationals to part with Adam Dunn. They basically just laughed at him. Ozzie stays. Kenny's gotta go!!

JB98
09-15-2010, 12:36 AM
Well, there was tonight too, the pen helped blow this game open. They could have gotten a guy like Fuentes, but were relying on guys like Lucas Harrell and Carlos Torres instead.

As I mentioned, Fuentes has made zero impact for the Twins. Zero.

He got hurt two days after joining the team and has appeared in only three games. He wouldn't have helped the Sox.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:36 AM
I said nothing of the sort. IMO, Ozzie's DH situation wasn't the best, but it sufficed. This team needed help in the bullpen--period. To go out and recklessly sign an aging superstar with his fingers crossed was absurd. Take a look at what he did with Jackson. He signs him and his monstrous salary in an attempt to lure the Nationals to part with Adam Dunn. They basically just laughed at him. Ozzie stays. Kenny's gotta go!!

Well, this was the same organization that thought a 39 year old injury plagued Ken Griffey Jr. could play CF, a position he hadn't played regularly in what? Two years?

thomas35forever
09-15-2010, 12:37 AM
Well, this was the same organization that thought a 39 year old injury plagued Ken Griffey Jr. could play CF, a position he hadn't played regularly in what? Two years?
Without Griffey in CF, we wouldn't have won the Blackout game.

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:37 AM
The problem wasn't with the bullpen at the trading deadline though, I don't blame him for not addressing that in July, but when guys like Fuentes were passing through on waivers as we were losing guys like Thornton and Putz were going on the DL, THAT was mind boggling. Trading for a high ceiling guy for an expensive guy with a less than stellar track record is a head scratcher, that coupled with his track record though doesn't reflect very well on him in my book. But my opinion doesn't matter, only Jerry Reisendorf's does.


Well said. Everybody's opinion matters, especially in this forum.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:39 AM
Without Griffey in CF, we wouldn't have won the Blackout game.

There was a game in Minnesota where he played a couple of singles into triples that led to runs of course. It was nice that he made that play, but really I am fairly certain Anderson would have made it too. So would have Swisher. I love Junior but his contributions to the '08 White Sox were minimal at best.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:40 AM
Well said. Everybody's opinion matters, especially in this forum.

Although as JB pointed out, Fuentes hasn't contributed anything to the Twins cuz he got hurt...but I still think that that would have been a smarter (maybe cheaper? I'm not so sure) than adding an aged veteran who from what I have seen in the White Sox has absolutely NO bat speed anymore.

thomas35forever
09-15-2010, 12:42 AM
There was a game in Minnesota where he played a couple of singles into triples that led to runs of course. It was nice that he made that play, but really I am fairly certain Anderson would have made it too. So would have Swisher. I love Junior but his contributions to the '08 White Sox were minimal at best.
Minimal? Yes. Important? Absolutely.

Wickel
09-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Although as JB pointed out, Fuentes hasn't contributed anything to the Twins cuz he got hurt...but I still think that that would have been a smarter (maybe cheaper? I'm not so sure) than adding an aged veteran who from what I have seen in the White Sox has absolutely NO bat speed anymore.

Exactly. You can't make a blanket statement like that anyway. The Sox have a different system and a strong coach. Who knows, Fuentes might have thrived under Cooper.

Anyway, I say we go on another mid-season like tear and grab victory from the jaws of defeat. Go Sox. Good night all.

JB98
09-15-2010, 12:48 AM
Although as JB pointed out, Fuentes hasn't contributed anything to the Twins cuz he got hurt...but I still think that that would have been a smarter (maybe cheaper? I'm not so sure) than adding an aged veteran who from what I have seen in the White Sox has absolutely NO bat speed anymore.

Sale really stepped up and showed some stones the last couple weeks, though. Even if the Sox had acquired Fuentes, they wouldn't have needed him because of what that kid has done. He's the reason the Sox bullpen hasn't cost the team a game in over three weeks.

I know it's kinda lame having to watch Harrell and Torres pitch, but those guys haven't cost the Sox any games. They haven't been used in many pressure situations at all.

You take a game like tonight ... Danks was handed a lead and gave it right back. Then Thornton and Putz, who are legit MLB relievers, couldn't keep the team close.

I don't see that as a failure by management. That's a failure by Danks, Thornton and Putz. They are more than capable of doing the job. They didn't do it. For tonight's game, I point the finger at those three pitchers, not at KW for not acquiring Fuentes.

I think there are other good reasons to criticize KW, which we've touched on here tonight.

RadioheadRocks
09-15-2010, 12:50 AM
I love these kind of hindsight posts. Most people on here were doing a happy dance when we got Manny, saying that our DH woes were over. But now that it looks like the division is lost, people are changing their tune. You can't have it both ways. If Kenny doesn't get Manny, it's "Kenny is letting Ozzie's rotating DH system ruin our season". But now that he got a DH and it didn't work out, it's "Kenny is handcuffing the team!"


FWIW we've had all kinds of "Manny to the Sox???" threads here over the past several years, and my "not on our team" opinion hasn't changed one iota since the first one way back when.

doublem23
09-15-2010, 12:52 AM
I, for one, am sticking by my story that Ramirez was worth the try. It was a "Hail Mary." Like most Hail Marys, it fell incomplete.

Yeah, I stand by the decision to acquire Manny. Hey, he's done, whatever, it's not like we were going anywhere with Kotsay or Jones playing everyday.

He didn't cost anything but some of Uncle Jerry's cash. Better to go down swinging.

Boondock Saint
09-15-2010, 12:53 AM
FWIW we've had all kinds of "Manny to the Sox???" threads here over the past several years, and my "not on our team" opinion hasn't changed one iota since the first one way back when.

There were/are a lot of people who didn't/don't want Manny on the Sox due to his character/steroid issues, but that wasn't what I was talking about. Personally, my reaction was pretty ambivalent. I have never liked Manny and his attitude, but I was tired of losing games because the Sox were playing at a disadvantage with our designated "hitter" situation.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2010, 12:56 AM
Yeah, I stand by the decision to acquire Manny. Hey, he's done, whatever, it's not like we were going anywhere with Kotsay or Jones playing everyday.

He didn't cost anything but some of Uncle Jerry's cash. Better to go down swinging.

Again, I'm nearly positive that we owe Manny money for next year too. I'm about to go to bed, but I'll scour the internets tomorrow and see what I can find. If that's the case and it costs us Konerko, it's not worth it.

TDog
09-15-2010, 01:03 AM
I think he's lost the team and thrown in the towel much the same way Manuel did at the end of 2003.

I don't think this resembles 2003 at all, other than the obvious bottom line. I don't think Guillen has lost his players as Manuel clearly did.

doublem23
09-15-2010, 01:10 AM
Again, I'm nearly positive that we owe Manny money for next year too. I'm about to go to bed, but I'll scour the internets tomorrow and see what I can find. If that's the case and it costs us Konerko, it's not worth it.

Well that's definitely a wrinkle to this discussion. I wasn't aware of Manny's expensive (EXPENSIVE) deal (he's owed over $8M annually until 2013 and then $3 M in 2014), so if we're actually on the hook for all that, OK, then this was a crazy stupid move since, as JB pointed out, it was basically a Hail Mary.

I got to believe there's more to this contract shuffle. I can't believe KW or Reinsy would pick up a tab that size.

SoxandtheCityTee
09-15-2010, 01:31 AM
I'll watch the games of course, but the odd obsession now for me is whether Manny gets an RBI in a White Sox uniform this season. I just can't believe how bad he's been, and I mean that literally -- maybe I didn't know or remember enough about his Dodger days, but I never expected this. The money aspect just makes it more dizzyingly sad.

Sure, there are lots of things to lament. But sometimes the mind prefers to drain the stress out of multiple sources and just say, I'm going to focus on this one aspect, it's all I can handle right now. Plenty of time for full and fair-minded analytical grieving in the off season. Whenever that starts. :wink:

DirtySox
09-15-2010, 01:36 AM
Well that's definitely a wrinkle to this discussion. I wasn't aware of Manny's expensive (EXPENSIVE) deal (he's owed over $8M annually until 2013 and then $3 M in 2014), so if we're actually on the hook for all that, OK, then this was a crazy stupid move since, as JB pointed out, it was basically a Hail Mary.

I got to believe there's more to this contract shuffle. I can't believe KW or Reinsy would pick up a tab that size.

It's something like 3.8 million that the Sox owe. It's just not all due this year. Some of it is deferred. That is what is being mentioned.

JB98
09-15-2010, 01:39 AM
Guys, guys, guys. Some of you have lost your minds. I know it's an emotional night, realizing that there will be no playoffs on the South Side this year and all.

But the Manny Ramirez acquisition is not going to cause the Sox to lose Paul Konerko in free agency. Obviously, there is no guarantee that we have Paulie back in 2011, but the Ramirez money IS NOT going to be a major factor in that decision.

The Sox owe Manny $1.1 million for the rest of this season, plus $3.3 million in deferred salary over the next three years. That's it. If the Sox lose Konerko in free agency, and management cries poor by citing the Ramirez money, we as a fan base should call shenanigans on that. Because that's bull****.

CubsfansareDRUNK
09-15-2010, 02:33 AM
"The White Sox loaded the bases with no outs in the sixth, but Liriano managed to limit them to just one run in the inning"...If that's not a microcosm of the season, I don't know what is.

A. Cavatica
09-15-2010, 05:41 AM
Shh! It's all Ozzie's fault! It's his fault his players can't hit with runners on! It's his fault that Kenny thought Teahen could play third base and when Ozzie said he wanted a more flexible DH Kenny got him Kotsay and Jones. It's ALL Ozzie's fault.

It doesn't have to ALL be Ozzie's fault to be necessary to fire Ozzie.

pudge
09-15-2010, 08:00 AM
The Sox owe Manny $1.1 million for the rest of this season, plus $3.3 million in deferred salary over the next three years. That's it. If the Sox lose Konerko in free agency, and management cries poor by citing the Ramirez money, we as a fan base should call shenanigans on that. Because that's bull****.

I love how 1.1 million a year is peanuts. Even so, Manny should not accept those deferred checks. Can you imagine getting a 1.1 million dollar check in the mail three years from now from a team you spent a month with and failed in the biggest moment the team got you for? I would feel so dirty...

Shores
09-15-2010, 08:02 AM
Was it the conventional wisdom that the Twins would win 83 games now that they don't play in a dome? We need to get better and stop with the "Twins have inferior talent and are just lucky" excuses.

roylestillman
09-15-2010, 08:02 AM
I keep going back to what Jerry said during one of the episodes of The Club. I think he was referring to Andruw Jones when he said that he liked getting players who have been good but were coming off bad years and have something to prove. That is a recipe for the inconsistant team that we have that can be maddening like this year. The roster is littered with these types: Jones, Rios, Quentin, Teahan, Putz, Linebrink, even Manny to some extent.

Jerry needs to quit shopping in the irregular section of the outlet mall.

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 08:07 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/It%27s_Over.jpg/200px-It%27s_Over.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8JDbWUM1E)
Give it a click. THE soundtrack for this discussion.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8JDbWUM1E)

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 08:13 AM
Was it the conventional wisdom that the Twins would win 83 games now that they don't play in a dome? We need to get better and stop with the "Twins have inferior talent and are just lucky" excuses.

The Twins have smashed that whole we'll see how they do outside The Hump Dome thing. I admire and respect the Twins machine-like system. They just keep producing players that come up and do well - whether thru the draft and development or thru picking thru other teams systems via trade or other means of acquisition.

I keep going back to what Jerry said during one of the episodes of The Club. I think he was referring to Andruw Jones when he said that he liked getting players who have been good but were coming off bad years and have something to prove. That is a recipe for the inconsistant team that we have that can be maddening like this year. The roster is littered with these types: Jones, Rios, Quentin, Teahan, Putz, Linebrink, even Manny to some extent.

Jerry needs to quit shopping in the irregular section of the outlet mall.

Very funny and true.

I love how 1.1 million a year is peanuts. Even so, Manny should not accept those deferred checks. Can you imagine getting a 1.1 million dollar check in the mail three years from now from a team you spent a month with and failed in the biggest moment the team got you for? I would feel so dirty...

Maybe so but I'd still cash the check.

white sox bill
09-15-2010, 08:36 AM
It was pretty much a pipe dream anyway, meaning a sweep of the Twins. The odds were 100 to 1 against it. We will be lucky to salvage one game from this series.

I have no problem with the Twins representing our division, they earned it and they certainly will do a better job in the playoffs than we would have.

As sure as the sun will set in the West, death and taxes, and the Twins will always have the upper hand on us.

canOcorn
09-15-2010, 08:36 AM
I love how 1.1 million a year is peanuts. Even so, Manny should not accept those deferred checks. Can you imagine getting a 1.1 million dollar check in the mail three years from now from a team you spent a month with and failed in the biggest moment the team got you for? I would feel so dirty...

The Sox are going to pay Linebrink over $10M this year and next to be the last man in the pen or to pitch for someone else. How much are we going to pay Teahen to be a defensive hack, who should see no more than 200 AB's in a bench role? I'd feel dirty if I had issued those contracts and then cried my hands were tied payroll wise. :shrug:

ChiSoxGirl
09-15-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm not that upset.

I had my tirade when Thome hit that HR off Thornton a month ago. My playoff hopes ended that night. Ever since then, I've just been trying to enjoy baseball.

I'll enjoy the final 18 games and move on to hockey season.

Go Sox. Let's win as many as we can these last couple weeks.

I remember it well. :cower: :smile:

Last night was my night... well, sort of. I'm one of those people who, even though things look bleak, believes there's still a chance until mathematics dictates otherwise. While mathematics still doesn't dictate that we're eliminated from the playoffs, I know in my heart that we're done. I thought that maybe if the team manned up and played a hell of a game against the rat bastards (like they did for the first five or six innings), they had a fighting chance. But, it wasn't meant to be, and that's just the way it is. When I found out -- very late last night -- that the Sox lost 9-3, I felt like crying a little bit, even though I totally saw this coming. I went to bed in the top of the 8th, after the Sox had failed in the clutch yet again, because I knew they'd lose; they were demoralized.

I wanted to cry because I realized that there are only a few weeks of baseball left to be played on the south side. I'm the kind of fan who wears her heart on her sleeve and loves going to the ballpark more than I can say, and facing the harsh reality that there's more than a six month period of time approaching that won't allow me to do that makes me sad. I've got at least two more games left -- this Saturday and September 27 against the Red Sox (four free tickets in the Club Level!) -- and I plan on enjoying myself as much as possible. If nothing else, the company I'll be in for at least one of those will be good. :smile:

No, the bullpen implosion in August is what did us in.

You could point to a myriad of things that did us in -- a dreadful April and May, blown saves by Jenks on Mother's Day and in the finale against the Twins after the All-Star Break, the Thome walk-off homerun in early August, injuries to Thornton and Putz when we needed them the most, the inability to hold leads from the 7th inning onward, the inability to have more than a smattering of come-from-behind victories, the inability to beat the teams in our own division.... I mean, when in the hell was the last time WE walked somebody off?!

Yeah, they are 40-16 since the All-Star break.

They just kicked our asses. And everyone else's asses, too. :shrug:

Seriously?! :thud:

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 08:42 AM
The Sox are going to pay Linebrink over $10M this year and next to be the last man in the pen or to pitch for someone else. How much are we going to pay Teahen to be a defensive hack, who should see no more than 200 AB's in a bench role? I'd feel dirty if I had issued those contracts and then cried my hands were tied payroll wise. :shrug:

Good points.

It was pretty much a pipe dream anyway, meaning a sweep of the Twins. The odds were 100 to 1 against it. We will be lucky to salvage one game from this series.

I have no problem with the Twins representing our division, they earned it and they certainly will do a better job in the playoffs than we would have.

As sure as the sun will set in the West, death and taxes, and the Twins will always have the upper hand on us.

I agree with just about everything except for the last sentence, but it's certainly true this year and last.

We'll always have 2005 & 2008 game 163

And Twins fans keep crying and crying about game 163, which they LOST fair and square.

aryzner
09-15-2010, 08:55 AM
Twins have only lost 2 games so far this month.

Ridiculous.

And as for that 40-16 stat - even the Yankees would have trouble keeping up with that if they were in this division.

So I don't feel that bad at all. They are a better team.

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 09:02 AM
Twins have only lost 2 games so far this month.

Ridiculous.

And as for that 40-16 stat - even the Yankees would have trouble keeping up with that if they were in this division.

So I don't feel that bad at all. They are a better team.

And take a look at the Twins/Sox records in the division:

Twins: 41-20
Sox: 30-34

Season.

SI1020
09-15-2010, 09:04 AM
Williams' trades have basically sucked for the last 2 years.....maybe 3. In that other thread about him I tried to give him some props, but yes he has been streaky all throughout his time as GM and the last few years he has been mostly streaky bad.

Craig Grebeck
09-15-2010, 09:07 AM
The organization is depressing in that it seems like the major players (Ozzie, KW) always want to look like they're trying hard/improving the team/doing what it takes to win by...I don't even know, looking busy? KW makes a bunch of bad-bad-bad moves but at least he's doing something. Ozzie sac-bunts with Alexei (which was indefensible) because in that situation, even if PK and Manny go down like they did, his defense is "Hey, I put guys in scoring position."

When, if the media consisted of one, just one level-headed, decent baseball mind, they would say, "Well, you took the bat out of the hands of one of your hottest hitters, all the while forfeiting an out."

Red Barchetta
09-15-2010, 09:23 AM
I still think this team lost it's mojo after Peavy went down. Jackson, statistically was a good replacement and hopefully a nice addition to the staff for years to come, however Peavy had a swagger that rubbed off on the rest of the team and took pressure off of the rest of the pitching staff.

On the flip side, although Paulie had a great season, his "No pressure on us", "No one expected us to be here" and "It's not the end of the world if we don't beat the Twins" comments over the past month have worn thin. I like quiet leaders and Paulie's bat certainly carried us, however sometimes the quiet leaders need to keep their mouths shut. :angry:

JC24
09-15-2010, 09:44 AM
Good points.



I agree with just about everything except for the last sentence, but it's certainly true this year and last.

We'll always have 2005 & 2008 game 163

And Twins fans keep crying and crying about game 163, which they LOST fair and square.Which is why the game 163 rule was changed to the team with the better head to head record gets the extra game. The Twins won the head to head, but lost a coin flip. That game should have been in Mn.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-15-2010, 09:47 AM
The Sox played meaningful baseball until the middle of September. Considering they were teetering wth being sellers at the trade deadline, I'm proud of the fight the team showed in staying in it and making it competitive. I can't get mad when the team you're chasing plays .700 baseball since the ASB.

Thanks for a fun season. Here's hoping Peavy returns bionic, we fix the bullpen, and get rid of Teahen.

asindc
09-15-2010, 09:57 AM
"The White Sox loaded the bases with no outs in the sixth, but Liriano managed to limit them to just one run in the inning"...If that's not a microcosm of the season, I don't know what is.

As I was following MLB Gameday on the laptop last night, I think a Twinkees fans posted that the Sox have scored one run in the last 13 PAs with the bases loaded against Minny. Don't know if that's true or not (maybe they got it from the Twinkees broadcast), but if it is, then that says it all, IMO. At that point, Jones/Kotsay/Manny/take your pick hardly matters.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2010, 10:06 AM
As I was following MLB Gameday on the laptop last night, I think a Twinkees fans posted that the Sox have scored one run in the last 13 PAs against Minny. Don't know if that's true or not (maybe they got it from the Twinkees broadcast), but if it is, then that says it all, IMO. At that point, Jones/Kotsay/Manny/take your pick hardly matters.PA with the bases loaded?

asindc
09-15-2010, 10:11 AM
PA with the bases loaded?

Yes. Thanks for catching that. I fixed it.

hi im skot
09-15-2010, 10:21 AM
Which is why the game 163 rule was changed to the team with the better head to head record gets the extra game. The Twins won the head to head, but lost a coin flip. That game should have been in Mn.

:whiner:

sox1970
09-15-2010, 10:23 AM
Yeah, they are 40-16 since the All-Star break.

They just kicked our asses. And everyone else's asses, too. :shrug:

And since they lost the first game after the break, the Twins are 40-15 in the last 55 games.

Sox also went 40-15 from June 6-August 7.

The Twins 19-9 start and the Sox 5-11 start are still sitting there in the standings. And of course going 5-11 vs the Twins killed the Sox.

Try again next year.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2010, 10:31 AM
Which is why the game 163 rule was changed to the team with the better head to head record gets the extra game. The Twins won the head to head, but lost a coin flip. That game should have been in Mn.

:whiner:You can do better than that, Skot.

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/08/Aug%2010%20Crying%20Child.jpg

hi im skot
09-15-2010, 10:42 AM
You can do better than that, Skot.

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/08/Aug%2010%20Crying%20Child.jpg

I went to sleep at 1:30 and came into work at 9. Give me a break. :cool:

asindc
09-15-2010, 10:54 AM
You can do better than that, Skot.

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/08/Aug%2010%20Crying%20Child.jpg

And look, the kid has Twinkee colors on as well. Was this picture taken in September 2008?

hawkjt
09-15-2010, 11:03 AM
No doubt it has been a weird season.

Sox could not hit a lick the first two months,but are now 4th in the league in hitting and last time I checked, led the league in hitting with men in scoring position...go figure.

Sox had some hot starters...Peavy in June, Gavin in June/July,Edwin in August, Danks early, but overall, the rotation did not have a great year as they were projected to have.

Sox have played ok the second half,but the Twins have gone 40-15...
I simply refuse to believe that the Twins can go the whole second half without a single slump...18 games to go...it is time,Twins!

Thornton has not had a good July/August/Sept...Mr. Reliable just has not been...reliable.

I wanted the Manny deal,but it has not helped. Still, I respect that the Sox spent 3.8 million late to try to bring us a division.

At the beginning of the season, I projected the Sox winning the division with 89-90 wins. They might still get there, but the Twins have been better than most expected....sucks.

Rally time,Sox...I want them to play it out hard,and make it to the last week vs Boston still alive. Win the next two,and then take out the Tigers this weekend. Not dead yet.

DrCrawdad
09-15-2010, 11:06 AM
Which is why the game 163 rule was changed to the team with the better head to head record gets the extra game. The Twins won the head to head, but lost a coin flip. That game should have been in Mn.

The rule was the rule. The rule was changed as a result of the constant crying by Twins players, management, media and fans. Funny too coming from folks who like to say "the rule is the rule..." when things go their way.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2010, 11:11 AM
And look, the kid has Twinkee colors on as well. Was this picture taken in September 2008?I believe he's Joe Nathan's son. So cute, he is acting just like hid daddy.

kobo
09-15-2010, 11:12 AM
"The White Sox loaded the bases with no outs in the sixth, but Liriano managed to limit them to just one run in the inning"...If that's not a microcosm of the season, I don't know what is.
That was the only time this season where the Sox actually managed to score a run with the bases loaded against the Twins. This season the Sox had the bases loaded against the Twins 13 times. They scored once out of all those situations. That's pathetic.

hi im skot
09-15-2010, 11:13 AM
The rule was the rule. The rule was changed as a result of the constant crying by Twins players, management, media and fans. Funny too coming from folks who like to say "the rule is the rule..." when things go their way.

Maybe if we bitch and moan enough we can get the Twins contracted.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2010, 11:20 AM
The rule was the rule. The rule was changed as a result of the constant crying by Twins players, management, media and fans. Funny too coming from folks who like to say "the rule is the rule..." when things go their way.Apparently, rules are all well and good until they help a Minnesota team lose in the playoffs. We saw how the NFL rushed to make a ridiculous rule just because Brett Brett decided to throw a horrible interception and the Saints won the game on basically the next posession (two incomplete passes before the end of regulation). It was acceptable when other teams lost in that manner, for many years in the regular or postseason, but HOW DARE THEY make a Minnesota team lose because they couldn't get the ball.

Maybe when the Twins get swept in the playoffs this year there will be an outcry of "you should have to win by 3 or more in the final game of a series."

kobo
09-15-2010, 11:22 AM
I still think this team lost it's mojo after Peavy went down. Jackson, statistically was a good replacement and hopefully a nice addition to the staff for years to come, however Peavy had a swagger that rubbed off on the rest of the team and took pressure off of the rest of the pitching staff.

On the flip side, although Paulie had a great season, his "No pressure on us", "No one expected us to be here" and "It's not the end of the world if we don't beat the Twins" comments over the past month have worn thin. I like quiet leaders and Paulie's bat certainly carried us, however sometimes the quiet leaders need to keep their mouths shut. :angry:
Too bad that swagger didn't kick in until June. Would have helped if the swagger and Jake Peavy had shown up in April and May.

And I agree about Paulie. I'm tired of hearing from White Sox players and coaches about how good the Twins are, or how it doesn't matter if they beat them or not. Bull****. They are your main division rival, the mindset should be to go out and beat them every time you play them. Not praise them and say "Ah shucks" when they beat you.

soltrain21
09-15-2010, 11:23 AM
The rule was the rule. The rule was changed as a result of the constant crying by Twins players, management, media and fans. Funny too coming from folks who like to say "the rule is the rule..." when things go their way.

I highly doubt that was the only reason it got changed. Sure, they whined, but the rule was really dumb. A coin flip? Really?