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captain54
09-09-2010, 12:18 AM
Teahen earned $3.575MM in 2009, and had two more years of arbitration eligibility ahead of him...2010, 2011...

So, his three year deal bought out two arbitration years and one free agent season. (2012)...

The deal he signed with the White Sox was for 14/MM over the three yrs, or 4.5/MM year

So basically, the White Sox gave a mediocre player, not only a raise in 2010, but tried to lock him in to prevent him from earning anymore than 4.5/MM yr until 2012, should he succeed beyond his mediocrity.
:whiner:

Jpgr91
09-09-2010, 12:35 AM
Teahen earned $3.575MM in 2009, and had two more years of arbitration eligibility ahead of him...2010, 2011...

So, his three year deal bought out two arbitration years and one free agent season. (2012)...

The deal he signed with the White Sox was for 14/MM over the three yrs, or 4.5/MM year

So basically, the White Sox gave a mediocre player, not only a raise in 2010, but tried to lock him in to prevent him from earning anymore than 4.5/MM yr until 2012, should he succeed beyond his mediocrity.
:whiner:

KW took a small gamble, and right now it looks like he is losing that gamble. Teams that are not the Yankees, Mets, or the Red Sox have to take gambles in order to be successful.

Noneck
09-09-2010, 12:39 AM
Everyone makes mistakes. This appears to be one but this is not a fatal mistake.

russ99
09-09-2010, 01:36 AM
Teahen earned $3.575MM in 2009, and had two more years of arbitration eligibility ahead of him...2010, 2011...

So, his three year deal bought out two arbitration years and one free agent season. (2012)...

The deal he signed with the White Sox was for 14/MM over the three yrs, or 4.5/MM year

So basically, the White Sox gave a mediocre player, not only a raise in 2010, but tried to lock him in to prevent him from earning anymore than 4.5/MM yr until 2012, should he succeed beyond his mediocrity.
:whiner:

How is this so hard to understand?

Teahen was going to arbitration, and Kenny tried to avoid that hearing like he does with many other players, especially since that would set a poor precedence with newly acquired players.

4.5M is cheap for a bench player. You should see what the Yankees and Red Sox spend for theirs. Besides, didn't Kansas City send us cash in the deal?

And yes Kenny gambled that Teahen would perform better, but that gamble hasn't paid off so far. Who's to say it won't in year two or three?

captain54
09-09-2010, 01:45 AM
How is this so hard to understand?

Teahen was going to arbitration, and Kenny tried to avoid that hearing like he does with many other players, especially since that would set a poor precedence with newly acquired players.

4.5M is cheap for a bench player. You should see what the Yankees and Red Sox spend for theirs. Besides, didn't Kansas City send us cash in the deal?

And yes Kenny gambled that Teahen would perform better, but that gamble hasn't paid off so far. Who's to say it won't in year two or three?

thanks for ruining my night in suggesting that Teahan is going to be here for year two and three...

Hitmen77
09-09-2010, 08:47 AM
How is this so hard to understand?

Teahen was going to arbitration, and Kenny tried to avoid that hearing like he does with many other players, especially since that would set a poor precedence with newly acquired players.

4.5M is cheap for a bench player. You should see what the Yankees and Red Sox spend for theirs. Besides, didn't Kansas City send us cash in the deal?

And yes Kenny gambled that Teahen would perform better, but that gamble hasn't paid off so far. Who's to say it won't in year two or three?

Really? You think 4.5 million is CHEAP for a bench player? Really?:scratch: Just because the Yankees spend a lot for bench players doesn't make that amount cheap. You should know better, you're the one who is always saying the blame for our lack of a passable DH is that KW and OG didn't have enough money left to spend from ownership. Once again your trying to have it both ways with your arguments. On the one hand you say that it's the limited payroll's fault that we couldn't fill the void in the lineup this year and then you say that spending $4.5 million for a bench player is cheap and shouldn't be questioned.

....and, no, KC didn't send us cash in the deal.

Also, the biggest problem with Teahen is his defense. Is he suddenly going to be a passable defensive 3B next year? His offense could improve possibly, but not enough to overcome the awful defense he provides.

The deal is hard to understand because it makes little sense.

ewokpelts
09-09-2010, 08:51 AM
Teahen earned $3.575MM in 2009, and had two more years of arbitration eligibility ahead of him...2010, 2011...

So, his three year deal bought out two arbitration years and one free agent season. (2012)...

The deal he signed with the White Sox was for 14/MM over the three yrs, or 4.5/MM year

So basically, the White Sox gave a mediocre player, not only a raise in 2010, but tried to lock him in to prevent him from earning anymore than 4.5/MM yr until 2012, should he succeed beyond his mediocrity.
:whiner:it was stupid when kenny made that deal, and it's even stupider now.
it would have been better to go to arbitration with him each year and still have the ability to let him go if he sucked ass.

NOW? he's untradeable at that salary, unless the sox want to eat most of that money.

russ99
09-09-2010, 10:00 AM
Really? You think 4.5 million is CHEAP for a bench player? Really?:scratch: Just because the Yankees spend a lot for bench players doesn't make that amount cheap. You should know better, you're the one who is always saying the blame for our lack of a passable DH is that KW and OG didn't have enough money left to spend from ownership. Once again your trying to have it both ways with your arguments. On the one hand you say that it's the limited payroll's fault that we couldn't fill the void in the lineup this year and then you say that spending $4.5 million for a bench player is cheap and shouldn't be questioned.

....and, no, KC didn't send us cash in the deal.

Also, the biggest problem with Teahen is his defense. Is he suddenly going to be a passable defensive 3B next year? His offense could improve possibly, but not enough to overcome the awful defense he provides.

The deal is hard to understand because it makes little sense.

Ahem... As per Cot's "acquired from Kansas City 11/6/09 (Royals paid $1.5M as part of deal)".

Kenny though he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right. And 3-4.5M isn't expensive for a bench player getting 3-400 ABs with some talent. For the Jones', Kotsays and other marginal players towards the end of their careers, it is.

I don't expect Teahen to be passable defensively next year, but I suspect he'll be the supersub, filling in at multiple positions, and helping more with his bat than with his glove.

And to expect there's no chance Teahen can turn things around at the plate after an injury-marred season is presumptious.

asindc
09-09-2010, 10:02 AM
it was stupid when kenny made that deal, and it's even stupider now.
it would have been better to go to arbitration with him each year and still have the ability to let him go if he sucked ass.

NOW? he's untradeable at that salary, unless the sox want to eat most of that money.

I agree with this, and I generally defend KW against many of the histrionic rantings some here hurl towards management (present post excluded:smile:). I was lukewarm at best about his acquisition, though I did not mind what he gave up to get him, and I absoulutely did not understand the extension from a pure baseball standpoint (the financial part has some plausibility, but not enough to offset everything else, IMO) when Teahen had not established himself as a proven player. I will say this much, though: Teahen never sucked this badly when he played for KC.

soltrain21
09-09-2010, 10:03 AM
How is this so hard to understand?

Teahen was going to arbitration, and Kenny tried to avoid that hearing like he does with many other players, especially since that would set a poor precedence with newly acquired players.

4.5M is cheap for a bench player. You should see what the Yankees and Red Sox spend for theirs. Besides, didn't Kansas City send us cash in the deal?

And yes Kenny gambled that Teahen would perform better, but that gamble hasn't paid off so far. Who's to say it won't in year two or three?

Holy **** your defense of the regime knows no bounds. 4.5 is cheap for a bench player? Are you crazy? And Teahen wasn't even brought in as a bench player. The White Sox actually thought he would be an everyday player. It's one of KW's worse moves.

But why avoid arbitration with Mark Teahen? He isn't good. And no, the gamble won't pay off in two three years because Teahen won't be good. He will always be a poor fielding, mostly poor hitter.

Hitmen77
09-09-2010, 10:24 AM
Kenny though he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right. And 3-4.5M isn't expensive for a bench player getting 3-400 ABs with some talent. For the Jones', Kotsays and other marginal players towards the end of their careers, it is.

I don't expect Teahen to be passable defensively next year, but I suspect he'll be the supersub, filling in at multiple positions, and helping more with his bat than with his glove.

And to expect there's no chance Teahen can turn things around at the plate after an injury-marred season is presumptious.

Yes it is.

But, there's no reasoning with you. You have proved time and again this year that you'll change your argument just to fit around the constant of defending Ozzie and Kenny's decision.

In this thread, $4.75 million for a bench player is cheap and there's nothing wrong with this 3 yr deal. In another current thread, you're tired of KW throwing money away and then crying poor.

....and if even you agree that you don't expect Teahen to be passable defensibly next year, then how the hell is he supposed to be a "super" sub.:scratch:

DirtySox
09-09-2010, 11:55 AM
As stated elsewhere, Teahen is the Linebrink of position players.

SCCWS
09-09-2010, 12:14 PM
Holy ****
4.5 is cheap for a bench player? .


Red Sox and Yankees spend differently than White Sox do. But we certainly pay more than Minnesota. They pay their comparable bench player--Nick Punto-$4 mil.

captain54
09-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Kenny though he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right .

So, what sort of inside info do you have that will allow you to back up that statement?

Kansas City thought enough of Teahan to let him go and replace him with two WS afterthoughts, Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit.

This was supposed to be the guy that was the missing piece of the puzzle in solidifying, defensively, the left side of the infield...

Now show me, please, what sort of magic does Teahan possess for management to have considered locking him in for three years before ever having put on the uniform?

UofCSoxFan
09-09-2010, 01:00 PM
4.5 million is not cheap for a bench player and it certainly isn't cheap for a player that is below replacement level. You can get someone with Teahen's productions for 1 million to 1.5 million.

I love the justification about well look at what the Yankees and Red Sox spend on their bench. Well look at what they spend on their team. You don't think the $3 or $4 million we overspent on Teahen this year could have been used on a DH? This doesn't even bring up the fact that we are paying Viciedo $3 million a year to be in the minor leagues at Teahen's position.

It's one thing to slightly overpay a guy and still get expected production. It's another to overpay and get awful results from the guy.

Sargeant79
09-09-2010, 01:34 PM
4.5 Million is not cheap...period. You expect better than Teahan-esque production for that, regardless of whether the guy is starting or a utility guy.

The thing is that Kenny Williams has had way more hits than misses in his dealings, including a lot of deals that I thought were bad at the beginning. But even the best GMs hand out a few bad contracts from time to time, and the Teahan extension certainly qualifies. So does the Linebrink deal. But the thing I like about Kenny is that when he makes a mistake, it's usually a $4-5 million mistake, not a $10-12 million mistake as it is with most other GMs.

captain54
09-09-2010, 01:51 PM
The thing is that Kenny Williams has had way more hits than misses in his dealings, including a lot of deals that I thought were bad at the beginning. .

It's not that Kenny has missed, it's where he has missed. Those "missings" explain why the Sox have one postseason appearance
in the last five years.

russ99
09-09-2010, 02:04 PM
So, what sort of inside info do you have that will allow you to back up that statement?

Kansas City thought enough of Teahan to let him go and replace him with two WS afterthoughts, Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit.

This was supposed to be the guy that was the missing piece of the puzzle in solidifying, defensively, the left side of the infield...

Now show me, please, what sort of magic does Teahan possess for management to have considered locking him in for three years before ever having put on the uniform?

I've had it with this kind of reasoning. Since when does every player on the roster on the Sox need to be an all-star? It takes all types to make a winning team.

A guy has a subpar year based on his career numbers, and all of a sudden it's deemed that he sucks.

Look around the league. The only team that doesn't have question marks in places of it's roster are the Yankees and they spend $200M on players.

When we spend that much, then this fanbase can expect that kind of performance from all its players....

asindc
09-09-2010, 02:11 PM
I've had it with this kind of reasoning. Since when does every player on the roster on the Sox need to be an all-star? It takes all types to make a winning team.

A guy has a subpar year based on his career numbers, and all of a sudden it's deemed that he sucks.

Look around the league. The only team that doesn't have question marks in places of it's roster are the Yankees and they spend $200M on players.

When we spend that much, then this fanbase can expect that kind of performance from all its players....

Your point is well taken, but AJ Burnett, Javier Vazquez, and Phil Hughes might disagree with you.

captain54
09-09-2010, 02:21 PM
I've had it with this kind of reasoning. Since when does every player on the roster on the Sox need to be an all-star? It takes all types to make a winning team.

A guy has a subpar year based on his career numbers, and all of a sudden it's deemed that he sucks.

Look around the league. The only team that doesn't have question marks in places of it's roster are the Yankees and they spend $200M on players.

When we spend that much, then this fanbase can expect that kind of performance from all its players....

you conveniently sidestepped the question and trying to change the subject...

the question again is:

what sort of inside info do you have to back up this statement?

Kenny thought he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right

doublem23
09-09-2010, 02:37 PM
what sort of inside info do you have to back up this statement?

Kenny thought he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right

I think the fact that he signed him to that contract sort of means he felt he was worth it. Unless Mark Teahen forced KW to sign it.

VMSNS
09-09-2010, 03:29 PM
How is this so hard to understand?

Teahen was going to arbitration, and Kenny tried to avoid that hearing like he does with many other players, especially since that would set a poor precedence with newly acquired players.

4.5M is cheap for a bench player. You should see what the Yankees and Red Sox spend for theirs. Besides, didn't Kansas City send us cash in the deal?

And yes Kenny gambled that Teahen would perform better, but that gamble hasn't paid off so far. Who's to say it won't in year two or three?

This post makes me lol.

Zisk77
09-09-2010, 04:15 PM
So, what sort of inside info do you have that will allow you to back up that statement?

Kansas City thought enough of Teahan to let him go and replace him with two WS afterthoughts, Josh Fields and Wilson Betemit.

This was supposed to be the guy that was the missing piece of the puzzle in solidifying, defensively, the left side of the infield...

Now show me, please, what sort of magic does Teahan possess for management to have considered locking him in for three years before ever having put on the uniform?


Actually it was Chris Getz. Betemit was DFA by the sox. He wasn't traded to KC.

captain54
09-09-2010, 04:19 PM
I think the fact that he signed him to that contract sort of means he felt he was worth it. Unless Mark Teahen forced KW to sign it.


"Kenny thought he was worth 3M this year and 4.5M the next two years, so at this point he's wrong, but may end up closer to right"

the question I've tried to get an answer for is.....what makes the person
who made this statement so sure that KW may end up being closer to right, with Teahan?

areilly
09-09-2010, 04:49 PM
A guy has a subpar year based on his career numbers, and all of a sudden it's deemed that he sucks.

Teahen 162-game average: .268/.331/.417
Teahen 2010: .259/.332/.391

Not terribly far off from his usual production, so if Teahen sucks now it simply means he always has.

ewokpelts
09-09-2010, 05:20 PM
4.5 Million is not cheap...period. You expect better than Teahan-esque production for that, regardless of whether the guy is starting or a utility guy.

The thing is that Kenny Williams has had way more hits than misses in his dealings, including a lot of deals that I thought were bad at the beginning. But even the best GMs hand out a few bad contracts from time to time, and the Teahan extension certainly qualifies. So does the Linebrink deal. But the thing I like about Kenny is that when he makes a mistake, it's usually a $4-5 million mistake, not a $10-12 million mistake as it is with most other GMs.scott ****brink is an 18 million dollar mistake

Sargeant79
09-09-2010, 06:01 PM
scott ****brink is an 18 million dollar mistake

It's a $4-5 million per year mistake, which is the scale I was using. If we're talking about entire contracts, then I'll amend my statement to say "Kenny's mistakes are usually $15-20 million mistakes instead of the $60-80 million mistakes that a lot of other GMs make."

Either way... Scott Linebrink's contract was a mistake and Kenny still makes fewer mistakes than most other GMs.

SOXfnNlansing
09-09-2010, 08:56 PM
Teahen deal < Pasqua or Sax deals from the past. I don't see the big deal having him on the bench, better alternative than Kotsay was the past 2 years.

Dub25
09-09-2010, 11:48 PM
Teahen earned $3.575MM in 2009, and had two more years of arbitration eligibility ahead of him...2010, 2011...

So, his three year deal bought out two arbitration years and one free agent season. (2012)...

The deal he signed with the White Sox was for 14/MM over the three yrs, or 4.5/MM year

So basically, the White Sox gave a mediocre player, not only a raise in 2010, but tried to lock him in to prevent him from earning anymore than 4.5/MM yr until 2012, should he succeed beyond his mediocrity.
:whiner:

I didn't bother to read the rest of the posts but I will honestly say that I hated the Teahan move when it happened. When will KW learn to not take Royal rejects? MacDougal, Sisco, and now Teahan. Who's next? Alex Gordon? he doesn't even play 3B for them anymore and he was suppose to be the next George Brett.

Hitmen77
09-10-2010, 03:58 PM
Teahen deal < Pasqua or Sax deals from the past. I don't see the big deal having him on the bench, better alternative than Kotsay was the past 2 years.

Hey, he has his house up for sale. It sounds like a small, old fixer-upper if anyone wants it::wink:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/sell/ct-mre-0912-elite-street-20100910,0,3895224.story

tstrike2000
09-10-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm ok with it as long as he's playing third.

ewokpelts
09-10-2010, 05:37 PM
for an organiztation that's pinching pennies(at leat publicly), you should at least try and act like you know what you're doing.

teahen was a mistake to sign for 3 years. was it a bad move to trade for him? no. was it bad to avoid arbitration for 2010? not really. was it bad to buy out his last arbitration year AND one year in free agency when the market for players like him is at an all time low? you better belive it.

Tragg
09-10-2010, 08:50 PM
The thing is that Kenny Williams has had way more hits than misses in his dealings, including a lot of deals that I thought were bad at the beginning. But even the best GMs hand out a few bad contracts from time to time, and the Teahan extension certainly qualifies.
Recently, Williams has had far more misses than hits.
I think the Teahen trade is placating the manager....he absolutely loves mediocre veterans and has basically no eye at all for talent.
Gio Gonzales, Dan Hudson and Clayton Richard are 3 well above average pitchers in their pre-arb years at bargain prices. What do the Sox have to show for them? 1 more year of Jackson at a high salary, and perhaps a couple years of Peavy and a massive salary, if he'd ever get off of the disabled list.
Oh, and there are about 6 other pitchers in the hands of the Padres, As and Diamondbacks plus Ryan Sweeney who may or may not turn into anything.