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guillensdisciple
09-04-2010, 11:56 PM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

Most recent line: will be updated to 20 home runs by tomorrow.

I wonder when he will begin making his impact. This kid can become a monster.

DirtySox
09-05-2010, 12:03 AM
Not optimistic at all. He's a liability at 3B, and a move to 1B brings with it increased offensive expectations as well as more defensive questions. Couple that with no plate discipline whatsoever and I have low expectations.

Also:

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/74219840/horsehead800_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/KnightsBaseball) KnightsBaseball (http://twitter.com/KnightsBaseball)
Viciedo has still walked just 9 times in 416 total at bats this season about 5 hours ago (http://twitter.com/KnightsBaseball/status/23015329890) via web

SCCWS
09-05-2010, 08:34 AM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

Most recent line: will be updated to 20 home runs by tomorrow.

I wonder when he will begin making his impact. This kid can become a monster.

Monster??? He can also be a flop. He may have the worse walk/strikeout ratio of any player in AAA 10/76. It was worse in his short stint in Chicago. I am sure management is not sure if he will ever have a position in the field but he is 21 and time will tell. Until he learns the strike zone he is a long way from a Major League everyday player even as a DH.

Nelfox02
09-05-2010, 09:45 AM
I have this recurring nightmare that the Sox cant reach agreement with Konerko this off season......and on opening day 2011 I hear Honda announce our starting first baseman is Dayan......

KyWhiSoxFan
09-05-2010, 11:00 AM
It appears that Viciedo was born to DH.

Unfortunately, you need some maturity, experience, and plate discipline to do that, and he is lacking in all three right now.

WhiteSox5187
09-05-2010, 11:05 AM
It appears that Viciedo was born to DH.

Unfortunately, you need some maturity, experience, and plate discipline to do that, and he is lacking in all three right now.

The kid is 20 years old, I am hard pressed to name many 20 year old major leaguers who have a lot of plate discipline.

sox1970
09-05-2010, 11:19 AM
The kid is 20 years old, I am hard pressed to name many 20 year old major leaguers who have a lot of plate discipline.

21, but thanks for playing.

Pablo_Honey
09-05-2010, 11:45 AM
I think the problem with Dayan is his ridiculously aggressive approach at the plate. Considering how much contact he makes with that big swing of his, he must have a decent idea of where the pitch will land. Buddy Bell and his crew will have to pretty much force this kid to calm down and be more selective. Some guys just develop plate discipline slower than other guys. I know this is a terrible comparison, but A-Gon took a while to be the walking beast he is today and he had a rather below average K/BB ratio down in the minors at the age of 21.

DirtySox
09-05-2010, 11:50 AM
The kid is 20 years old, I am hard pressed to name many 20 year old major leaguers who have a lot of plate discipline.

He shouldn't be a major leaguer yet. His 2.7% BB rate this year in the minors isn't going to cut it. Plate discipline isn't something that just turns on like a light switch. And it certainly isn't something to be learned in the majors. I don't think Dayan is wired to become a walk machine, but I do think he needs to become more selective if he plans on having a successful major league career. Especially considering the defensive value he lacks.

DirtySox
09-05-2010, 11:57 AM
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1084526477/kgotto2_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/Kevin_Goldstein) Kevin_Goldstein (http://twitter.com/Kevin_Goldstein)
yes, but not a star RT @ProfessorFog (http://twitter.com/ProfessorFog): @Kevin_Goldstein (http://twitter.com/Kevin_Goldstein) Dayan Viciedo. Can he be successful without significant alterations to his approach? 5 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Kevin_Goldstein/status/23073234855) via TweetDeck (http://www.tweetdeck.com/)

Noneck
09-05-2010, 12:10 PM
I really thought he was being showcased for a trading deadline deal. Too bad because I think that was when he had the most worth he ever will have.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2010, 07:26 PM
Plate discipline is the most obvious difference between Viciedo and The Big Hurt. It's why Frank's going to be a first ballot HoFer and Viciedo will be a journeyman DH.

GAsoxfan
09-05-2010, 09:21 PM
I love how certain fans are writing off a 21 year old kid b/c he doesn't have plate discipline. Plate discipline can be developed (I'm not saying he will, but stating he won't like it's a fact is asinine.)

Daver
09-05-2010, 09:39 PM
I love how certain fans are writing off a 21 year old kid b/c he doesn't have plate discipline. Plate discipline can be developed (I'm not saying he will, but stating he won't like it's a fact is asinine.)

You can teach players to hit a breaking ball too, yet the Sox have failed miserably in accomplishing that for quite awhile now.

DumpJerry
09-05-2010, 10:09 PM
He has another factor which hurts his trade value:
:borass:

Pablo_Honey
09-05-2010, 11:41 PM
Since it is rather obvious that he will follow down the path of Josh Fields and Brian Anderson, why don't we just convert him to pitcher? I hear he's got a good arm.

SCCWS
09-06-2010, 08:20 AM
I love how certain fans are writing off a 21 year old kid b/c he doesn't have plate discipline. Plate discipline can be developed (I'm not saying he will, but stating he won't like it's a fact is asinine.)

I am not sure we are writing him off. But he has terrible not poor plate discipline for a AAA player. He is also a below average AAA fielder. He is a good AAA DH. So to project him to a ML player, even at 21, is a real stretch right now.

DumpJerry
09-06-2010, 08:36 AM
Since it is rather obvious that he will follow down the path of Josh Fields and Brian Anderson, why don't we just convert him to pitcher? I hear he's got a good arm.
He was a pitcher in Cuba (out of the Bullpen) .



He did not walk anyone.

Zisk77
09-06-2010, 10:38 AM
You can teach players to hit a breaking ball too, yet the Sox have failed miserably in accomplishing that for quite awhile now.

Your right so lets not even try. No point working on defense either. Lets DFA him.

Daver
09-06-2010, 10:59 AM
Your right so lets not even try. No point working on defense either. Lets DFA him.

I didn't say stop trying, though I would have little optimism for improvement considering the track record for players with similar problems in recent history.

guillensdisciple
09-06-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm trying to figure out why we're so pessimistic. Kid is a .276 hitter without walking. That means he knows how to make contact. Someone will teach him discipline, and then he can explode as a hitter.

In a full season you can slot him in with a 35 home runs- that's pretty damn good.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-06-2010, 11:25 AM
I know this is cherry picking stats, but he's only been in the minors for 2 years, and this year has been a bit of change for him because of the stint in the majors and all... but...

Viciedo 2009 at-bats/walks.... 504/23 ~ 21.9
Alexei's 2010 at-bats/walks.... 495/21 ~ 23.6

OBVIOUSLY, they are different players, and I am not saying it's ok how Alexei walks so little... but as we have all seen, Alexei is a decent offensive player, and has consistently shown for the past 3 years that he can be effective at the major league level. Just last year, Alexei had 49 walks. He obviously was trying to walk more in 2009, and I would assume he got help from somebody, somewhere. The difference between these two players? Viciedo isn't very good at defense, but he is also a very powerful hitter.

Any power hitter is going to get more garbage than a slappy hitter, especially when he already hit the cover off a ball during a game or series. He is young enough to learn to lay of breaking stuff, and he has already shown he can hit major league hitting. I think, given an offseason and maybe a half-a-year, he can learn to lay of the breaking stuff, which will result in more walks as well. I don't think it will happen automatically, but he's going to need to work with somebody, hopefully his focus from now on is hitting, and not 3B.

He is progressing no where near as fast as I thought he would, but he is still VERY young (21), and if it takes until he is 23-24 to come up and bat .280 with just a .335 OBP, but still hit the cover off the ball, I don't think he will be a bust. He's making a lot of money, but any time now, something could snap and we could have an All-Star ready to come out of our system. I'm not giving up hope like many people here seem to be, his problems are minor tweeks, it's not like we're talking about somebody who just flat-out can't hit.

Daver
09-06-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm trying to figure out why we're so pessimistic. Kid is a .276 hitter without walking. That means he knows how to make contact. Someone will teach him discipline, and then he can explode as a hitter.

In a full season you can slot him in with a 35 home runs- that's pretty damn good.

How well did the trying to outhit the opponent philosophy work out throughout the 90's?

guillensdisciple
09-06-2010, 11:38 AM
How well did the trying to outhit the opponent philosophy work out throughout the 90's?

Point understood, but the fact remains that he has the capability to become dangerous with a little bit of discipline. He can hit.

DirtySox
09-06-2010, 11:49 AM
I know this is cherry picking stats, but he's only been in the minors for 2 years, and this year has been a bit of change for him because of the stint in the majors and all... but...

Viciedo 2009 at-bats/walks.... 504/23 ~ 21.9
Alexei's 2010 at-bats/walks.... 495/21 ~ 23.6

OBVIOUSLY, they are different players, and I am not saying it's ok how Alexei walks so little... but as we have all seen, Alexei is a decent offensive player, and has consistently shown for the past 3 years that he can be effective at the major league level. Just last year, Alexei had 49 walks. He obviously was trying to walk more in 2009, and I would assume he got help from somebody, somewhere. The difference between these two players? Viciedo isn't very good at defense, but he is also a very powerful hitter.

Any power hitter is going to get more garbage than a slappy hitter, especially when he already hit the cover off a ball during a game or series. He is young enough to learn to lay of breaking stuff, and he has already shown he can hit major league hitting. I think, given an offseason and maybe a half-a-year, he can learn to lay of the breaking stuff, which will result in more walks as well. I don't think it will happen automatically, but he's going to need to work with somebody, hopefully his focus from now on is hitting, and not 3B.

He is progressing no where near as fast as I thought he would, but he is still VERY young (21), and if it takes until he is 23-24 to come up and bat .280 with just a .335 OBP, but still hit the cover off the ball, I don't think he will be a bust. He's making a lot of money, but any time now, something could snap and we could have an All-Star ready to come out of our system. I'm not giving up hope like many people here seem to be, his problems are minor tweeks, it's not like we're talking about somebody who just flat-out can't hit.

What are you trying to show with these numbers here? Last year Dayan had a BB% of 4.3% and this year in the minors it's at 2.7%

I'm not sure he's going to bust, but I don't think he's close to becoming an all-star.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2010, 11:59 AM
It's difficult for BA's no. 61 prospect to be a bust, right? Expectations are already low.

Also, saying you can "slot him in" for 35 home runs...what?

Rdy2PlayBall
09-06-2010, 03:03 PM
What are you trying to show with these numbers here? Last year Dayan had a BB% of 4.3% and this year in the minors it's at 2.7%

I'm not sure he's going to bust, but I don't think he's close to becoming an all-star.Glad you read my post.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2010, 03:08 PM
Glad you read my post.
I'd recommend you look up what a marginal first baseman produces at the plate. Hint: it's likely better than Viciedo's ceiling, given his plate discipline issues.

DirtySox
09-06-2010, 03:09 PM
Glad you read my post.

I did read your post, and have no idea what you are accomplishing by comparing Alexei's 2010 walk total with Dayan's 2009 walk total.

They aren't even remotely similar players and you have no concise point in your ramblings.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-06-2010, 03:18 PM
I'd recommend you look up what a marginal first baseman produces at the plate. Hint: it's likely better than Viciedo's ceiling, given his plate discipline issues.If he continues to have plate discipline issues, he's not going to be very good, but he is still young and has a few years to get things together. He can still be as young as most of the prospects that start coming to the majors (with a year or two more of work).

If he can put together the kind of average and OBP Alexei can get (walks were similar with the stats I showed), then he can end up a decent player, with the potential to have All-Star numbers. This year wasn't a step in the right direction, but it might have something to do with working multiple positions and moving up to the majors, I don't know. I'll still give him a year before I start to think he will be a "bust", because his issue that needs to be fixed isn't a mechanical or physical one... just a mental one. (may be a good, or bad thing). Like all prospects, we need to give him some time to develop.

I did read your post, and have no idea what you are accomplishing by comparing Alexei's 2010 walk total with Dayan's 2009 walk total.
They aren't even remotely similar players and you have no concise point in your ramblings.I didn't say they were similar, I said they both have problems with walking, and Alexei is still effective. I also said Viciedo still needs work. Alexei is an example of a player that was okay to good offensively, yet walked only about 20 times. There is no doubt Viciedo is going to need to lay of the breaking stuff more, but it's not going to take a huge revamping of his approach for him to be successful in the majors.

Daver
09-06-2010, 03:22 PM
If he continues to have plate discipline issues, he's not going to be very good, but he is still young and has a few years to get things together. He can still be as young as most of the prospects that start coming to the majors (with a year or two more of work).

If he can put together the kind of average and OBP Alexei can get (walks were similar with the stats I showed), then he can end up a decent player, with the potential to have All-Star numbers. This year wasn't a step in the right direction, but it might have something to do with working multiple positions and moving up to the majors, I don't know. I'll still give him a year before I start to think he will be a "bust", because his issue that needs to be fixed isn't a mechanical or physical one... just a mental one. (may be a good, or bad thing). Like all prospects, we need to give him some time to develop.

The question mark is who is doing the developing, it is the same instructors that failed to develop Borchard, Fields, Anderson, Flowers,and Jeremy Reed to name a few.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2010, 03:22 PM
If he continues to have plate discipline issues, he's not going to be very good, but he is still young and has a few years to get things together. He can still be as young as most of the prospects that start coming to the majors (with a year or two more of work).

If he can put together the kind of average and OBP Alexei can get (walks were similar with the stats I showed), then he can end up a decent player, with the potential to have All-Star numbers. This year wasn't a step in the right direction, but it might have something to do with working multiple positions and moving up to the majors, I don't know. I'll still give him a year before I start to think he will be a "bust", because his issue that needs to be fixed isn't a mechanical or physical one... just a mental one. (may be a good, or bad thing). Like all prospects, we need to give him some time to develop.

I didn't say they were similar, I said they both have problems with walking, and Alexei is still effective. I also said Viciedo still needs work. It was an example of a player that was okay to good offensively, yet walked only about 20 times. There is no doubt he is going to need to lay of the breaking stuff more, but it's not going to take a huge revamping of his approach for him to be successful in the majors.
Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.

DirtySox
09-06-2010, 03:25 PM
I didn't say they were similar, I said they both have problems with walking, and Alexei is still effective. I also said Viciedo still needs work. It was an example of a player that was okay to good offensively, yet walked only about 20 times. There is no doubt he is going to need to lay of the breaking stuff more, but it's not going to take a huge revamping of his approach for him to be successful in the majors.

It might not take a huge revamping for him to be a successful major leaguer if he manages to hit many home runs, but a move to 1B comes with it increased offensive expectations which I'm unsure he can fulfill.

His numbers would be much more acceptable if he could stick at 3B and provide at least passable defense.

The comparison with Alexei and Dayan doesn't work for me as a large part of Alexei's value comes with him playing a premium defensive position adequately.

Daver
09-06-2010, 03:26 PM
Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.

Joe Crede, Robin Ventura, Mark Johnson, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, and Chris Getz all managed to improve their plate discipline significantly, and that is just off the top of my head. Improving plate discipline is not that difficult a task.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2010, 03:27 PM
Joe Crede, Robin Ventura, Mark Johnson, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, and Chris Getz all managed to improve their plate discipline significantly, and that is just off the top of my head. Improving plate discipline is not that difficult a task.
Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-06-2010, 03:28 PM
Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.True, but Dayan has the added power, so if he can get 30 HRs a year, then that would also make him effective as a 1B or DH.

Plate discipline can be a hard thing to fix, but I was trying to use Alexei as an example of a player to doubled his walks in one season. This year, he is walking less than last year, yet, he is still effective with his higher batting average. Dayan is definitely going to need some work, and hopefully the coaches that were unable to fix previous Sox prospects, will have more luck with him.

Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.Maybe his problem isn't recognition, but he just thinks he can hit anything close? He is a very agressive hitter, maybe it will just take calming him down a bit.

Daver
09-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.


Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.
Fair enough. I'm much too young to remember, so I'll defer to your wisdom.

Hopefully the minor league instructors at Charlotte have Walt's ability.

A. Cavatica
09-06-2010, 05:33 PM
Someone will teach him discipline, and then he can explode as a hitter.

Can you cite one example of a player Viciedo's age who suddenly learned plate discipline?

This is something you learn in little league. You don't learn it at the big league level.

khan
09-07-2010, 10:45 AM
Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.
I'd have to agree with this as well, from my recollection.



Besides Viciedo, there are a few other SOX "prospects" that K too damn much, relative to their BB numbers. [Thinking of Danks, Flowers, Retherford started to K too much this year, Shelby, Gilmore, and others.]

One wonders if this is an error in terms of scouting/drafting, an error in coaching, or if I'm merely seeing what I think is an issue where there really isn't one.

doublem23
09-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Can you cite one example of a player Viciedo's age who suddenly learned plate discipline?

This is something you learn in little league. You don't learn it at the big league level.

Are you kidding me, man, he's 21 years old.

When we talk about learning plate discipline, we're not saying he's ever going to lead the league in BB or OBP, he just needs to learn how to not go up to the plate hacking at everything.

NardiWasHere
09-07-2010, 02:21 PM
I find it hard to believe that a baseball player that young has never improved their plate discipline. Its definitely something that can be worked on.

A. Cavatica
09-07-2010, 07:09 PM
Are you kidding me, man, he's 21 years old.

When we talk about learning plate discipline, we're not saying he's ever going to lead the league in BB or OBP, he just needs to learn how to not go up to the plate hacking at everything.

So find an example. Dayan has drawn no walks in his first 82 major league at-bats. Find a player who started off with that kind of atrocious plate discipline who improved to league average.

A. Cavatica
09-07-2010, 07:23 PM
So find an example. Dayan has drawn no walks in his first 82 major league at-bats. Find a player who started off with that kind of atrocious plate discipline who improved to league average.

I'll throw in an example of what I expect. I remember a 21-year old rookie whose OBP was only .012 above his BA in his first season -- 12 walks in a full season. Smart player, mediocre batting average with basically no power, the kind of a player who you'd think would really cultivate his batting eye to increase his value at the plate.

In subsequent seasons that player had walk totals of 12, 22, 25, 15, 26, 11, 10, 14, 13, 10, and 22, until he got to his mid-thirties and lost his starting job. Only then did he start to walk at a reasonable rate; he had two seasons where he had similar walk totals (over half as many at-bats) and then he was all done.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/guilloz01.shtml

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Isn't part of "plate discipline" really a matter of pitch recognition?

He's only in his second season of baseball in the U.S., and had his MLB debut this year. I think it's safe to say:

1. His pitch recognition skills have not been developed;

2. With proper coaching, he should be able to learn to recognize pitches better.

Once he learns to recognize pitches better, he will become more selective. No one is saying he's going to have Frank Thomas' discipline, but one doesn't have to have Frank's discipline to be a great hitter. Vlad Guerrero seemingly swings at everything but he's able to hit stuff all over the zone because he's good at recognizing the pitch.

A. Cavatica
09-08-2010, 09:20 PM
So find an example. Dayan has drawn no walks in his first 82 major league at-bats. Find a player who started off with that kind of atrocious plate discipline who improved to league average.

Found one. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sosasa01.shtml) 0 walks in first 88 plate appearances as a 20-year old rookie, eventually peaked at 116 walks in a season where he finished second in the MVP voting.

Viciedo won't match his power numbers, but as far as I know, steroids don't improve plate discipline.

Taliesinrk
09-10-2010, 07:52 PM
Found one. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sosasa01.shtml) 0 walks in first 88 plate appearances as a 20-year old rookie, eventually peaked at 116 walks in a season where he finished second in the MVP voting.

Viciedo won't match his power numbers, but as far as I know, steroids don't improve plate discipline.
:fail:

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-10-2010, 11:00 PM
Found one. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sosasa01.shtml) 0 walks in first 88 plate appearances as a 20-year old rookie, eventually peaked at 116 walks in a season where he finished second in the MVP voting.

Viciedo won't match his power numbers, but as far as I know, steroids don't improve plate discipline.

I'd wager that a good number of those were intentional.

EDIT: 37 IBB, so 32% of his walks were intentional that year.

Sam Spade
09-11-2010, 11:44 PM
Found one. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sosasa01.shtml) 0 walks in first 88 plate appearances as a 20-year old rookie, eventually peaked at 116 walks in a season where he finished second in the MVP voting.

Viciedo won't match his power numbers, but as far as I know, steroids don't improve plate discipline.
Good find.

stevemcstud
09-12-2010, 07:31 PM
I have a feeling Viciedo is gone by the start of next season.

Of course what do I know about anything, but here is my prediction:

We keep Konerko on a 2-3 Year deal.

Brent Morel is starting 3B next year on Opening Day.

Teahen traded like Swisher to the Yankees trade version 2.

Flowers is Opening Day Catcher.

Quentin new DH/4th OF

Viciedo package for either new RF or new pitching, depends on if it takes pitching or fielding the new OF.

Santos is new Closer.

Jenks non tendered.

Noneck
09-12-2010, 08:53 PM
Viciedo package for either new RF or new pitching, depends on if it takes pitching or fielding the new OF.



Viciedo wont get the Sox a starting player unless a team is doing a salary dump.

NLaloosh
09-13-2010, 09:35 PM
I have a feeling Viciedo is gone by the start of next season.

Of course what do I know about anything, but here is my prediction:

We keep Konerko on a 2-3 Year deal.

Brent Morel is starting 3B next year on Opening Day.

Teahen traded like Swisher to the Yankees trade version 2.

Flowers is Opening Day Catcher.

Quentin new DH/4th OF

Viciedo package for either new RF or new pitching, depends on if it takes pitching or fielding the new OF.

Santos is new Closer.

Jenks non tendered.


Viciedo = Jose Guillen - not necessarily a bad thing.

I agree with most of this - Konerko is back, Morel starTing at 3B, Jenks gone, Quentin DH/4th OF.

But, no way is Santos the closer. Putz, Sale and Thornton before him. No way is Flowers the starting catcher. Flowers MIGHT be the backup. And, no one will take Teahen's contract. The Sox are stuck with him like Linebrink.

palehosepub
09-14-2010, 10:59 AM
I have a feeling Viciedo is gone by the start of next season.

Of course what do I know about anything, but here is my prediction:

We keep Konerko on a 2-3 Year deal.

Brent Morel is starting 3B next year on Opening Day.

Teahen traded like Swisher to the Yankees trade version 2.

Flowers is Opening Day Catcher.

Quentin new DH/4th OF

Viciedo package for either new RF or new pitching, depends on if it takes pitching or fielding the new OF.

Santos is new Closer.

Jenks non tendered.

I agree with all of the above but I think the Sox want AJ back and dont feel very confident with Flowers

doublem23
09-14-2010, 11:49 AM
But, no way is Santos the closer. Putz, Sale and Thornton before him. No way is Flowers the starting catcher. Flowers MIGHT be the backup. And, no one will take Teahen's contract. The Sox are stuck with him like Linebrink.

Putz is an FA after this year, I'm not 100% sure he's back. Thornton's still one of the few effective lefties in the bullpen, I don't know if the Sox make him closer right away. Sale was guaranteed by the Sox that this bullpen stint would only be temporary, but starting next season he would be molded as a starter, so he's likely going to spend summer 2011 in Birmingham working on getting stretched out.

Domeshot17
09-14-2010, 07:20 PM
I agree with all of the above but I think the Sox want AJ back and dont feel very confident with Flowers

I hope not, at this stage of his career, AJ is nothing more than below average both offensively and behind the plate. Not in love with Flowers, I would like someone who can throw out a runner. AJ was nice in 2005, but he is nothing more than a backup or platoon C at this stage of his career.

SI1020
09-14-2010, 07:27 PM
I hope not, at this stage of his career, AJ is nothing more than below average both offensively and behind the plate. Not in love with Flowers, I would like someone who can throw out a runner. AJ was nice in 2005, but he is nothing more than a backup or platoon C at this stage of his career. I'll take an aging AJ over Flowers who has done little IMO to show he is big league worthy. Again, the Sox have little to look forward to down on the farm.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-14-2010, 07:46 PM
I hope not, at this stage of his career, AJ is nothing more than below average both offensively and behind the plate. Not in love with Flowers, I would like someone who can throw out a runner. AJ was nice in 2005, but he is nothing more than a backup or platoon C at this stage of his career.So one bad year, and he's done? He batted .300 last year and has been batting .382 the past 28 days, bringing his average up to a respectable .268. He's not 40, he's 33. I would bet more on this being a bad year than it being the start of his demise as an effective starter. Bring him back, I want nothing to do with Flowers until he gets more time in the minors.

Pablo_Honey
09-15-2010, 11:16 PM
So one bad year, and he's done? He batted .300 last year and has been batting .382 the past 28 days, bringing his average up to a respectable .268. He's not 40, he's 33. I would bet more on this being a bad year than it being the start of his demise as an effective starter. Bring him back, I want nothing to do with Flowers until he gets more time in the minors.
While I do agree that this season is just one of those bad seasons most players go through, you've got to wonder if catching so many games every year is starting to take a toll on AJ's body. He's only 33 but catchers have a way shorter lifespan than other positional players. I wouldn't mind seeing him go but given his recent resurgence, I wouldn't be too upset if we brought him back.

This makes me realize how frustrating Flowers' struggles this season is. I had high hopes for him going into the season. Now it looks like he can neither hit or catch (Well, not like he could catch before but at least he was improving).

khan
09-16-2010, 11:03 AM
I'll play along:

I have a feeling Viciedo is gone by the start of next season.
Eh, he's what, 21 or 22? I know KW's been giving away assets lately, but this would be selling WAY low. The only way Viciedo is gone is if he's waived because he has no trade value as I type this.


Of course what do I know about anything, but here is my prediction:
We keep Konerko on a 2-3 Year deal.
Maybe. If Boston want him, and PK wants money and a perhaps better chance to win [or the perception of a better chance to win], he might be gone.

Brent Morel is starting 3B next year on Opening Day.
I'd like to see him get a few hits this year and play well in Spring Training, but otherwise, why not?

Teahen traded like Swisher to the Yankees trade version 2.
I could actually see this happening.

Flowers is Opening Day Catcher.
GOD no! I'm starting to believe that he has no value as an MLB player. Maybe he should have stayed on the PEDs, because he looks like he sucks at baseball now.

Quentin new DH/4th OF
This would mean that KW would have to acquire an actual starting RFer. Since I don't see this happening, I'm guessing that Quentin will again tantalize us in 2011 with glimmers of brilliance, interspersed(sp?) between injuries and ****ty play. He may then be DFAed after 2011.

Viciedo package for either new RF or new pitching, depends on if it takes pitching or fielding the new OF.
Again, Viciedo has zero value, and this would be selling low. You'd have to get another GM to stupidly overpay in trade to the same degree that KW has done lately. Because of this, I don't see this happening.

Santos is new Closer.
Jenks non tendered.
Jenks probably will be non tendered, but Santos' 1.5 WHIP means that he's not yet good enough to be a closer.

DirtySox
09-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Viciedo certainly has some value. I don't think he's some super stud blue chip can't miss prospect, but he's shown that he might be a decent hitter with some nice pop, albeit one with little plate discipline and little defensive value.

Washington wanted him for Dunn (which I gladly would have obliged), and not much has really changed since then. I'm very down on the kid, but I think the statement that he has zero value is absurd.

khan
09-16-2010, 11:53 AM
Viciedo certainly has some value. I don't think he's some super stud blue chip can't miss prospect, but he's shown that he might be a decent hitter with some nice pop, albeit one with little plate discipline and little defensive value.

Washington wanted him for Dunn (which I gladly would have obliged), and not much has really changed since then. I'm very down on the kid, but I think the statement that he has zero value is absurd.

Eh, I just don't see anyone wanting him at this point. He's been found out to be a guy who will swing at anything that isn't thrown directly at his head. There's absolutely no reason to throw a single pitch within an area code of the plate against Viciedo any more. He gets himself out due to his indiscipline.

Washington may have wanted him back in July, but many Viciedo AB have passed, without him bothering to walk to a sufficient degree. In the intervening time, Viciedo's value has been in free fall since then.


So sure, Viciedo has "some" value above zero because of his batspeed and power. But what will he return at this point, since he's neither a "plus" hit for average player, nor a "plus" batting eye, nor a "plus" runner, nor a "plus" fielder?

His two strengths, throwing and hit for power aren't enough to get him to the bigs/keep him there. So why bother trading Viciedo if nothing can be gotten in return?


He's Cuban Rob Deer right now. If he can learn any kind of strike zone awareness, he might have some value, or even a good White Sox player someday. At least he's young, so there is still hope.

eriqjaffe
09-16-2010, 12:07 PM
He's Cuban Rob Deer right now.¡Roberto Ciervos!

EndemicSox
11-22-2010, 05:04 PM
Eh, I just don't see anyone wanting him at this point. He's been found out to be a guy who will swing at anything that isn't thrown directly at his head. There's absolutely no reason to throw a single pitch within an area code of the plate against Viciedo any more. He gets himself out due to his indiscipline.

Washington may have wanted him back in July, but many Viciedo AB have passed, without him bothering to walk to a sufficient degree. In the intervening time, Viciedo's value has been in free fall since then.


So sure, Viciedo has "some" value above zero because of his batspeed and power. But what will he return at this point, since he's neither a "plus" hit for average player, nor a "plus" batting eye, nor a "plus" runner, nor a "plus" fielder?

His two strengths, throwing and hit for power aren't enough to get him to the bigs/keep him there. So why bother trading Viciedo if nothing can be gotten in return?


He's Cuban Rob Deer right now. If he can learn any kind of strike zone awareness, he might have some value, or even a good White Sox player someday. At least he's young, so there is still hope.

I think you're being a bit harsh, for a 21 year old kid, his MLB stat line over 100AB's was much better than most prospects his age could produce, and his AAA line wasn't bad by any stretch. He certainly needs to learn to how to be patient, and time will tell if he will ever develop that skill...nevertheless, I'm sure Kenny could get a solid prospect for him...one with the potential to start in the big leagues at the very least.

Again, time will tell, but if DV improves his game in 2011-2013, the Sox will have a VERY nice 24 year old power-hitter on the club...2011 will be telling, hopefully we see significant improvement.

SoxSpeed22
11-22-2010, 06:57 PM
Viciedo has only been in pro baseball for 2 years. His pitch recognition will hopefully get better. The second time he was called up, he didn't swing and miss at the high fastball, the same way he did earlier. I would prefer that he spend more time in AAA next year, depending on what happens with Konerko and others.