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voodoochile
09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
I don't know how this guy can't be in the running this year. If the Sox make the playoffs, he's got to be considered a viable vote option. What a season...

:worship: :walnuts

sox1970
09-01-2010, 03:20 PM
Top 5. Hamilton will win if he and the Rangers don't tank in September.

Best season Paul has ever had. I hope he sticks around a couple more years.

tstrike2000
09-01-2010, 03:26 PM
Top 5. Hamilton will win if he and the Rangers don't tank in September.

Best season Paul has ever had. I hope he sticks around a couple more years.

Agree about Hamilton as the Rangers are walking away with the division and Hamilton may also win the batting title. Paulie has made his case be known and good for him.

chisoxfanatic
09-01-2010, 03:32 PM
I hope KW re-signs him for at least a couple more years.

soxfanreggie
09-01-2010, 03:34 PM
Top 5. Hamilton will win if he and the Rangers don't tank in September.

Best season Paul has ever had. I hope he sticks around a couple more years.

It would be nice to announce a 2-year extension after the season with a chance for a club option that could turn into a vesting option - Paulie gets a good salary (less than what he's at now) and ensures that he stays with the Sox.

Stoky44
09-01-2010, 04:04 PM
It would be nice to announce a 2-year extension after the season with a chance for a club option that could turn into a vesting option - Paulie gets a good salary (less than what he's at now) and ensures that he stays with the Sox.

Unfortunately he is probably (my opinion) going to ask for at least 3 years with the 4th year as an option. And I see no way the Sox give him that. Plus I heard the Yanks maybe interested in him, meaning his price jumps up even more.

downstairs
09-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Unfortunately he is probably (my opinion) going to ask for at least 3 years with the 4th year as an option. And I see no way the Sox give him that. Plus I heard the Yanks maybe interested in him, meaning his price jumps up even more.

And he already gave the Sox a "home town discount" in 2006. No reason to expect him to do that again, and I wouldn't fault him. If the Yanks want to overpay for him, I have no problem with him taking it.

voodoochile
09-01-2010, 04:11 PM
Unfortunately he is probably (my opinion) going to ask for at least 3 years with the 4th year as an option. And I see no way the Sox give him that. Plus I heard the Yanks maybe interested in him, meaning his price jumps up even more.

Why would the Yankees want him? They really going to pay a DH 4/60? I know they can afford it, but even they might not be that crazy. Also, PK might not be ready to play DH full time. He enjoys playing the field I think. He certainly shows it with the effort he puts forth on defense.

I think he'll re-sign and finish his career here. And I don't think the Sox will balk at a 4th year option.

Uncontested
09-01-2010, 05:17 PM
3rd in MLB in HRs
4th in MLB in RBI
5th in AL in OBP
4th in AL in SLG

I think he might be top 10 in AL in AVG as well.


And he probably will be completely over looked because he plays for the White Sox, sad but its the truth.

soltrain21
09-01-2010, 05:23 PM
3rd in MLB in HRs
4th in MLB in RBI
5th in AL in OBP
4th in AL in SLG

I think he might be top 10 in AL in AVG as well.


And he probably will be completely over looked because he plays for the White Sox, sad but its the truth.

I don't remember Frank Thomas being overlooked. He will be in the top three in voting. Hamilton will win it.

Procol Harum
09-01-2010, 05:23 PM
I don't think there's a ghost of a chance that Konerko could actually win the MVP award, but he certainly deserves to be in the conversation. His generally underrated, under-the-radar persona is just too much to overcome, methinks.

He's having a terrific year. :bandance:

Uncontested
09-01-2010, 05:26 PM
I don't remember Frank Thomas being overlooked. He will be in the top three in voting. Hamilton will win it.

I'll point you to the year 2000 regarding Frank.

PalehosePlanet
09-01-2010, 05:37 PM
3rd in MLB in HRs
4th in MLB in RBI
5th in AL in OBP
4th in AL in SLG

I think he might be top 10 in AL in AVG as well.


And he probably will be completely over looked because he plays for the White Sox, sad but its the truth.

Yep, he's 6th.

He'll finish top 4 is my guess.

Boondock Saint
09-01-2010, 05:39 PM
I'll point you to the year 2000 regarding Frank.

Putting all steroid talk aside, Giambi and Thomas had very similar stats. Thomas had more hits, runs, and RBI, while Giambi had a better average, better OBP, better slugging, and a lot more walks.

If Konerko doesn't win MVP, it won't be because of where he plays.

BadBobbyJenks
09-01-2010, 05:45 PM
It is pretty close:

http://www.rototimes.com/mlb/player_comparison.php

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2010, 05:57 PM
Paulie should be in the top three if the Sox make the playoffs (or just hang around long enough), but I think the MVP this year is Hamilton.

Rocky Soprano
09-01-2010, 06:11 PM
He should be in top 3 or 4 but won't win.

thomas35forever
09-01-2010, 06:32 PM
I wish I could say I see Paulie finishing high in the voting, but I'd be surprised if he finished in the top five.

Ranger
09-01-2010, 07:05 PM
3rd in MLB in HRs
4th in MLB in RBI
5th in AL in OBP
4th in AL in SLG

I think he might be top 10 in AL in AVG as well.


And he probably will be completely over looked because he plays for the White Sox, sad but its the truth.

It will have nothing to do with him playing for the Sox and will have everything to do with the fact that Hamilton is having a monster season.

DonnieDarko
09-01-2010, 07:08 PM
What are Hamilton's stats compared to Konerko's?

Shoeless
09-01-2010, 07:16 PM
What are Hamilton's stats compared to Konerko's?

Per Baseball Reference

Hamilton: .361 BA, 181 hits, .413 OBP, .637 slugging OPS+ = 179
Paulie: .320 BA, 148 hits, .400 OBP, .583 slugging OPS+ = 159

Awesome year for Paulie, but Hamilton is easily the best player in baseball this year.

mjmcend
09-01-2010, 07:18 PM
What are Hamilton's stats compared to Konerko's?

Hamilton:
.361/.413/.637 with 31HR and 97 RBIs.

Konerko:
.320/.400/.583 with 33HRs and 98 RBIs.

Sunnydre
09-01-2010, 07:23 PM
You guys are crazy.

If Paulie and the Sox catch the twins, he will win it.

The people that vote for these awards (MLB writers), hate one thing more than anything else:

Drug User's. Doesn't matter that it wasn't steriods.

Boondock Saint
09-01-2010, 07:30 PM
You guys are crazy.

If Paulie and the Sox catch the twins, he will win it.

The people that vote for these awards (MLB writers), hate one thing more than anything else:

Drug User's. Doesn't matter that it wasn't steriods.

This is ridiculous for several reasons.

Rockin Robin
09-01-2010, 07:35 PM
Drug User's. Doesn't matter that it wasn't steriods.

:facepalm:

JB98
09-01-2010, 07:35 PM
He'll get votes. He'll get more votes if the Sox can pull out this division.

soxinem1
09-01-2010, 07:52 PM
I hope KW re-signs him for at least a couple more years.

A couple thoughts about this, coming from a big PK fan:

1. A couple years will not do it. Konerko is young enough that a second big possible payoff from FA will get him a lot more than that from a few teams out there. I doubt any of the west coast teams will be able to make a play for him, but on the east coast? Way different story. The cubs can conceivably go after him as well.

2. Paulie has had as consistent a year this year as he has ever had. In the past it was great first half, slow second half, and vice versa.

Going forward, is it reasonable to expect Konerko to have more years like this? Paulie is not a .320 or even a .300 hitter. What should we reasonably expect from him in 2011 and beyond.

At the same time, if he's making around $15 million this year can he be expected to take a pay cut to stay? Why should he? He can make bank somewhere else, like BOS or NYM, for example.

I hope he stays but this is truly a very tough call....

Frater Perdurabo
09-01-2010, 08:17 PM
The Dallas Morning News reported that Hamilton was not going to play tonight (http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/09/the-lineups-rangers-to-play-wi.html), and moreover that he has experiened more swelling in his knee, despite having recently received a second cortisone injection in that knee. The consensus is that a player should not receive more than two cortisone injections in one area per season.

If his knee cannot hold up, his stats may tumble or he may be forced to miss a significant chunk of September. This could jeopardize both the Rangers' chances (they still likely would win the division but might back into it) and Hamilton's status as MVP favorite.

doublem23
09-01-2010, 08:18 PM
I don't remember Frank Thomas being overlooked. He will be in the top three in voting. Hamilton will win it.

Big Frank was a bonafide superstar and also won his MVP awards just before the ESPN conglomerate days.

Konerko's a much less recognizable name and the Sox simply aren't national media darlings.

If the Sox win this division and he stays this hot for the rest of September, then Hamilton or Cano better play out of their mind for the rest of the year to have earned it over him. The guy's had streaky TCQ, mostly terrible Andruw Jones, and mind-bogglingly terrible Mark Kotsay protecting him in the lineup. He's the straw stirring this drink right now.

fram40
09-03-2010, 09:49 AM
He'll get votes. He'll get more votes if the Sox can pull out this division.

He won't get any votes unless he has a monster September. (by monster September I mean about 20 HRs and 50 RBIs.) Even then I'd be surprised if he got more than two votes - the two votes of the Sox beat writers.

Jayson Stark has an early breakdown of the races - and Konerko is not even mentioned in the top 5 - Hamilton, Cabrera, Cano, Mauer, Longoria.

No way does a partial observer conclude that Cabrera, Mauer, Longoria are more valuable than PK. Not this season. No way.

But that is the national media for you. The Sox get no respect and no votes. That's just the way it is.

Here is the link to the Stark column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings1000902_1

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 09:53 AM
He won't get any votes unless he has a monster September. (by monster September I mean about 20 HRs and 50 RBIs.) Even then I'd be surprised if he got more than two votes - the two votes of the Sox beat writers.

Jayson Stark has an early breakdown of the races - and Konerko is not even mentioned in the top 5 - Hamilton, Cabrera, Cano, Mauer, Longoria.

No way does a partial observer conclude that Cabrera, Mauer, Longoria are more valuable than PK. Not this season. No way.

But that is the national media for you. The Sox get no respect and no votes. That's just the way it is.

Here is the link to the Stark column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings1000902_1
There is literally no argument for Konerko over Cabrera. None.

fram40
09-03-2010, 09:57 AM
There is literally no argument for Konerko over Cabrera. None.

Sure there is - Cabrera is on a losing team. For the last 20 years or so, a player must play for a team in contention to win MVP from the writers.

The Tigers are not in contention.

soltrain21
09-03-2010, 10:07 AM
Sure there is - Cabrera is on a losing team. For the last 20 years or so, a player must play for a team in contention to win MVP from the writers.

The Tigers are not in contention.

That's not true. Arod won it when the Rangers were bad.

fram40
09-03-2010, 10:30 AM
That's not true. Arod won it when the Rangers were bad.

Sure - there are exceptions. But I'd bet there are many articles from that time from writers gnashing their teeth about voting "Most Valuable" to a player on a last place team. Look at the stats from 2003 - the only competition that year was from Delgado who was also on a ****ty team that finished well out of contention. No one else was close to those two.

There is no argument that Cabrera is having a better season than Konerko. No doubt. But if the situation was reversed - Konerko with Cabrera's stats on a ****ty team that collapsed after the all star break - Konerko would not be listed second in Stark's column. He would not be in the top five. Same as he is now. Nowhere.

That's the life of a Sox fan and a Sox player. c'est la vie!

CHISOXFAN13
09-03-2010, 10:37 AM
There is literally no argument for Konerko over Cabrera. None.

I'd argue that there is no argument for Longoria over Konerko. This has not been a great offensive season for Longo.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 10:55 AM
Sure there is - Cabrera is on a losing team. For the last 20 years or so, a player must play for a team in contention to win MVP from the writers.

The Tigers are not in contention.
I said argument, not idiotic old-timey BBWA belief.

I'd argue that there is no argument for Longoria over Konerko. This has not been a great offensive season for Longo.
Well, there's the classic "where would the Rays be without Longoria?" argument that Sox fans are pulling out for Konerko. I think it's stupid in both cases, and might consider Longoria on Konerko's level because of his defensive value.

Boondock Saint
09-03-2010, 10:58 AM
Well, there's the classic "where would the Rays be without Longoria?" argument that Sox fans are pulling out for Konerko. I think it's stupid in both cases, and might consider Longoria on Konerko's level because of his defensive value.

If defense was a factor in MVP voting, Ryan Howard, Justin Morneau and Vlad Guerrero would never have one.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 11:01 AM
If defense was a factor in MVP voting, Ryan Howard, Justin Morneau and Vlad Guerrero would never have one.
Defense is a factor in my non-vote. I don't care what idiots like Joe Cowley consider valuable.

Boondock Saint
09-03-2010, 11:02 AM
Defense is a factor in my non-vote. I don't care what idiots like Joe Cowley consider valuable.

I know. I'm not saying that it's not important, but rather that it isn't taken into consideration.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 11:03 AM
I know. I'm not saying that it's not important, but rather that it isn't taken into consideration.
Of course. I wish it would be taken into account, rather than the "Hey, this guy hit a walkoff hit on ESPN! M-V-P! M-V-P!"

voodoochile
09-03-2010, 11:47 AM
Of course. I wish it would be taken into account, rather than the "Hey, this guy hit a walkoff hit on ESPN! M-V-P! M-V-P!"

All things being equal - and purely based on stats there aren't a lot of guys having significantly better years that PK - I'd hope the voters would take into consideration whether a player was a significant contributor to a playoff bound team.

PK's clutch numbers are just stunning this year. He also leads his team in almost every major statistical category that people talk about - H, 2B (T), HR, RBI, BA, OBP, SLG (and obviously OPS) and he's only 4 behind Rios for runs.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 01:00 PM
All things being equal - and purely based on stats there aren't a lot of guys having significantly better years that PK - I'd hope the voters would take into consideration whether a player was a significant contributor to a playoff bound team.

PK's clutch numbers are just stunning this year. He also leads his team in almost every major statistical category that people talk about - H, 2B (T), HR, RBI, BA, OBP, SLG (and obviously OPS) and he's only 4 behind Rios for runs.
They always consider that. And it's dumb.

happydude
09-03-2010, 01:15 PM
I believe that the team's performance should be taken into consideration for MVP voting. I realize that its an individual award based on individual performance but the logic behind my viewpoint is this: how "valuable" could Player A have been if his team finishes in 4th place?

If my memory serves me correctly the Sporting News used to offer a "Player of the Year" award. To me, thats a more appropriate award for a player whose numbers are award-worthy but is in a situation where those numbers cannot be said to have made his team relevant in terms of overall competitiveness.

Just my two cents and I apologize, in advance, if this point has been previously made. I neglected to read the entire thread.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 01:16 PM
I believe that the team's performance should be taken into consideration for MVP voting. I realize that its an individual award based on individual performance but the logic behind my viewpoint is this: how "valuable" could Player A have been if his team finishes in 4th place?

If my memory serves me correctly the Sporting News used to offer a "Player of the Year" award. To me, thats a more appropriate award for a player whose numbers are award-worthy but is in a situation where those numbers cannot be said to have made his team relevant in terms of overall competitiveness.

Just my two cents and I apologize, in advance, if this point has been previously made. I neglected to read the entire thread.
Miguel Cabrera has been more valuable than Paul Konerko.

happydude
09-03-2010, 01:27 PM
Miguel Cabrera has been more valuable than Paul Konerko.

Cabrera is a great player in the midst of a great year but, in terms of what it means to be "valuable", I have to ask myself the follow up question of: what has he been valuable towards?

If one player has been valuable towards a tangible achievement like a division title and playoff appearance while another has been valuable in the sense that his team would have finished a rung or two lower without him then, unless the numbers are inarguably unequal, I'd opt for the guy who contributed to a team accomplishment.

FarmerAndy
09-03-2010, 01:35 PM
If Paulie keeps it up, he should finish top 5. He's having a great season.

But all of the crying and whining about not having a chance because he is on the White Sox is so overblown and stupid. Since when are the Texas Rangers media darlings? Is Hamilton getting the love because ESPN just wets themselves over the Rangers? What about the Rays or Tigers? Cabrerra and Longoria must get consideration because the media has such a stiffy for Detroit and Tampa. Right? Gimmie a break.

Pablo_Honey
09-03-2010, 01:35 PM
Cabrera is a great player in the midst of a great year but, in terms of what it means to be "valuable", I have to ask myself the follow up question of: what has he been valuable towards?

If one player has been valuable towards a tangible achievement like a division title and playoff appearance while another has been valuable in the sense that his team would have finished a rung or two lower without him then, unless the numbers are inarguably unequal, I'd opt for the guy who contributed to a team accomplishment.
No offense, but I think this kind of argument only works for NBA where one guy can have so much impact that he can change a franchise. In MLB, you have to worry about contributions from 10+ other guys. You simply can't have enough impact to singlehandedly carry a team to postseason. If Cards don't make it, should Pujols not be in talks for MVP because of that?

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Cabrera is a great player in the midst of a great year but, in terms of what it means to be "valuable", I have to ask myself the follow up question of: what has he been valuable towards?

If one player has been valuable towards a tangible achievement like a division title and playoff appearance while another has been valuable in the sense that his team would have finished a rung or two lower without him then, unless the numbers are inarguably unequal, I'd opt for the guy who contributed to a team accomplishment.
He has been valuable insofar as he has been an offensive monster.

kufram
09-03-2010, 01:47 PM
The word clutch has come up a couple of times here and I wonder if this is a stupid or naive question. Are there measurable stats kept on clutch hitting? I love clutch hitters and great clutch hitters are few and far between.

I'm talking about things like HRs that bring you from behind late in a game, hits that capitalize with runners on base in a close game, two-out rbis, walks after numerous foul balls late in a tight game, leadership on the field. There are many more I can't think of right now. I'd call them intangibles. To me an MVP is the guy EVERYONE wants at the plate when the game is on the line to do whatever it takes to get a win.

Numbers are important and Cabrera has numbers, to be sure. He is a great hitter. PK has something hard to measure for the Sox, especially this year.

PK is definitely a clutch hitter when he is hot, like ALL of this year.

Pablo_Honey
09-03-2010, 02:01 PM
The word clutch has come up a couple of times here and I wonder if this is a stupid or naive question. Are there measurable stats kept on clutch hitting? I love clutch hitters and great clutch hitters are few and far between.
There are stats that are supposed to represent clutch (RISP, late & close, etc), but those are measures of clutch performances not clutch players. Here's a great writeup that explains what that means and why clutch players are a myth: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656

PK is definitely a clutch hitter when he is hot, like ALL of this year.
Um, where were you at that time when Paulie either GIDP'd or K'd (can't remember) to end the game and some people were calling for his head saying he choked? :tongue: Nah, I agree with you. Paulie's been very consistent unlike Rios who's torrid May makes him look better than he actually is.

kufram
09-03-2010, 02:10 PM
There are stats that are supposed to represent clutch (RISP, late & close, etc), but those are measures of clutch performances not clutch players. Here's a great writeup that explains what that means and why clutch players are a myth: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656


Um, where were you at that time when Paulie either GIDP'd or K'd (can't remember) to end the game and some people were calling for his head saying he choked? :tongue: Nah, I agree with you. Paulie's been very consistent unlike Rios who's torrid May makes him look better than he actually is.

Read the article. Don't buy it. I'll take Rios exactly as he is, thank you.

fram40
09-03-2010, 02:17 PM
If Paulie keeps it up, he should finish top 5. He's having a great season.

But all of the crying and whining about not having a chance because he is on the White Sox is so overblown and stupid. Since when are the Texas Rangers media darlings? Is Hamilton getting the love because ESPN just wets themselves over the Rangers? What about the Rays or Tigers? Cabrerra and Longoria must get consideration because the media has such a stiffy for Detroit and Tampa. Right? Gimmie a break.

Tigers are a much more glorified franchise than White Sox. I remember a few articles back in 2006 waxing poetic about how great baseball is when the Tigers have a contending team. I remember none about the Sox in 2005.

Tampa Bay is in the AL East - standing up to ESPN Media darlings NYY/BOS. So of course they will get lots of press. Not to mention that Longoria is a media darling himself - former #1 pick reaching all of his potential.

Josh Hamilton - same thing as Longoria. Former #1 pick, drug addict made good. Feel good story all around. Throw in tha fact the Rangers are/were oin bankruptcy. Not to mention the fact - as Stark pointed out in my earlier link - that Hamilton is on a pace to bat .360, hit 50 doubles and 40 homers. A feat accoplished only once in AL history - by Lou Gehrig.

I am not whining nor crying - just stating facts. Konerko will not finish in the top 5 of MVP voting unless he has a monster finish.

Craig Grebeck
09-03-2010, 02:21 PM
Read the article. Don't buy it. I'll take Rios exactly as he is, thank you.
Rios has been just about average since May. I'd like to see more.

BadBobbyJenks
09-03-2010, 02:26 PM
He has been valuable insofar as he has been an offensive monster.


The V needs to be taken out of this award. It should go to the best player that year, not best player on a playoff team.

happydude
09-03-2010, 03:18 PM
No offense, but I think this kind of argument only works for NBA where one guy can have so much impact that he can change a franchise. In MLB, you have to worry about contributions from 10+ other guys. You simply can't have enough impact to singlehandedly carry a team to postseason. If Cards don't make it, should Pujols not be in talks for MVP because of that?

I don't disagree with your logic necessarily; but then, if that be the case, and you wish to separate the player from the team, so to speak, then the word "valuable" has little or no meaning in the context of the ultimate goal of the sport. I mentioned earlier that I'm pretty sure The Sporting News once sponsored a "Player of the Year" award and that kind of award would be more appropriate for the huge-numbers-team-going-nowhere type of season.

As for Pujols, Cabrera, etc., of course their numbers put them on the short list for MVP. However, as I previously mentioned, unless the numbers are vastly superior, I'd vote for the guy whose contributions occurred on a successful team.

kufram
09-03-2010, 04:32 PM
Rios has been just about average since May. I'd like to see more.


I wish we had more average players like him. I reckon he'll streak again soon.

Gavin
09-03-2010, 04:55 PM
You guys are crazy.

If Paulie and the Sox catch the twins, he will win it.

The people that vote for these awards (MLB writers), hate one thing more than anything else:

Drug User's. Doesn't matter that it wasn't steriods.

They may hate drug users but they love stories of recovery.

soltrain21
09-03-2010, 04:58 PM
They may hate drug users but they love stories of recovery.

Who doesn't love stories of recovery?

fram40
09-13-2010, 03:44 PM
He won't get any votes unless he has a monster September. (by monster September I mean about 20 HRs and 50 RBIs.) Even then I'd be surprised if he got more than two votes - the two votes of the Sox beat writers.

Jayson Stark has an early breakdown of the races - and Konerko is not even mentioned in the top 5 - Hamilton, Cabrera, Cano, Mauer, Longoria.

No way does a partial observer conclude that Cabrera, Mauer, Longoria are more valuable than PK. Not this season. No way.

But that is the national media for you. The Sox get no respect and no votes. That's just the way it is.

Here is the link to the Stark column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings1000902_1


ten days later - Stark has Konerko at #4. He even uses the term "monster September".

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5567575

ghostface36
09-15-2010, 03:29 PM
hamilton and cabrera are gonna be 1 and 2 but konerko should be #3 no doubt about it lol at evan longoria
also why do people care if josh hamilton was a crackhead 7 years ago? he's a great baseball player NOW although i think he may be on the new steroid going around

ghostface36
09-15-2010, 04:33 PM
, I'd vote for the guy whose contributions occurred on a successful team.
this is silly b/c one baseball player can not will a team to victory by themselves more then (in a HUGE season) like 12 or so games a season there's a statistic for it called WARP