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View Full Version : *Official* 'Sale-ing Along To A Lake Erie Sweep! White Sox vs CLE 9/1 Postgame Thread


soxinem1
09-01-2010, 02:56 PM
They sure were not easy, and the defense has been brutal, but these wins here were much-needed.

Too many Maalox moments with this bullpen lately, but Pena deserves some credit today. When Freddy came out, I thought 'Oh Boy'...

Domeshot17
09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Mvp...mvp...mvp...mvp...mvp

aryzner
09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Nice win but christ PLEASE make the plays when they are presented to you.

Sale shouldn't have even been facing Choo in the first place.

LongLiveFisk
09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
OMG, HUGE comeback!!

Thanks, Paulie! :) :gulp: :bandance:

ilsox7
09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Good job finding a way to win. 29 more.

soltrain21
09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Some of you need help.


Good win.

JermaineDye05
09-01-2010, 02:58 PM
He got the save, but after that inning, I think many of us can agree that Chris isn't quite ready for that.

Great job nailing it down in the end for the win, that's all that matters. In the future though, you cannot be walking guys back-to-back, especially with averages as they had.

soxinem1
09-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Mvp...mvp...mvp...mvp...mvp

Cabrera, Hamilton, and a few others, unfortunately, might thwart that.

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Now get the hell outta cleveland sox....last time we have to see that house of horrors...nice sweep to get back in the season series with the Tribe...

Nice comeback sox. This is what september pennant race adreline smells like...it smells like...victory!!

guillensdisciple
09-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Good to see a somewhat decent ending to this game. Paulie has been beastly for us. Manny doing his on deck magic.

Keep on winning, that's all you can do and maybe miracles happen.

gogosox675
09-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Maalox needs to become the official sponsor of the 9th inning.

Quentin08
09-01-2010, 02:59 PM
MVP! MVP! MVP! :bandance:

tstrike2000
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
Paulie!

doublem23
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
We're coming for you, Minnesota.

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
Tip o the hat to Alexei....he got us going with that homer to leadoff the 8th.

delben91
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
I'd forgotten the "excitement" in the game threads since I typically can only join during day games.

Of what's left in the bullpen now, I'd have taken Sale in the 9th myself. Well done young man.

seventyseven
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
He got the save, but after that inning, I think many of us can agree that Chris isn't quite ready for that.

Great job nailing it down in the end for the win, that's all that matters. In the future though, you cannot be walking guys back-to-back, especially with averages as they had.

:scratch:

Why not? He gets outs. The other guys, namely our alleged CLOSER, don't.

SoxSpeed22
09-01-2010, 03:00 PM
The Sox really had no business winning this game with Carrasco looking like a stud for 7 innings and the defensive gaffes, but the pen, Alexei and Paulie come through and lead to a sweep of the Tribe.
Congrats newbie on your first save.

CPditka
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Huge Win!!

kufram
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
I swear... it felt like some people were WILLING them to lose. PK... what a player! Put him on the wall NOW.

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Who in the front office thought Teahen could play third? My God! When was the last time we had a nice easy 1,2,3 ninth inning?

ChiSoxGal85
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Maalox needs to become the official sponsor of the 9th inning.
:thumbsup:

Rocky Soprano
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Some of you need help.


Good win.

Exactly. Reading the gamethread was priceless. Someone even went as far as congratulating the Twins on winning the division. :rolleyes:

1989
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Paul Konerko is a top 3 MVP candidate

Law11
09-01-2010, 03:01 PM
wow Im at work at turned off the updates on Gamecenter when it went to 3-1. Great comeback! Dint see the game but Ill look at it as a win is a win right now

LongLiveFisk
09-01-2010, 03:02 PM
Exactly. Reading the gamethread was priceless. Someone even went as far as congratulating the Twins on winning the division. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: is right!

Come on people.

twinsuck
09-01-2010, 03:03 PM
I love you Paulie Konerko. :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance:

Quentin08
09-01-2010, 03:03 PM
If we do make the postseason, it'll be exciting to see Paulie light it up. He's been on a tear and I don't see him slowing down anytime soon!

Gavin
09-01-2010, 03:04 PM
Never start Manny Ramirez, just reserve him for PH-On Deck duties when the situation calls for it.

JB98
09-01-2010, 03:04 PM
He got the save, but after that inning, I think many of us can agree that Chris isn't quite ready for that.

Great job nailing it down in the end for the win, that's all that matters. In the future though, you cannot be walking guys back-to-back, especially with averages as they had.

Well, this was a learning experience for him. First time he's ever been asked to do that. That's a lot of responsibility. Next time he's called upon in that capacity, he'll pitch better, IMO. Now he knows he can do it. In fact, he knows he can pitch into trouble and then get out of it. That's a nice mental hurdle for a young pitcher to clear.

I was impressed with the way Sale regrouped after briefly losing all command of the zone. He overpowered Cleveland's best hitter to end the game.

Big win today. It was a wild series, but the Sox did what they came to do.

Marqhead
09-01-2010, 03:05 PM
I heart giving up on this team in the 5th inning.

kittle42
09-01-2010, 03:07 PM
So, my take on this series:

First and foremost, a sweep is always awesome, against any team. Ecstatic with three wins. Happy we have another great bat in the middle of the order. 29 more like that, and I really like our chances! :D:

BUT, man, was this series ugly. That easily could have been three losses. Great resolve by the team to hang in there and some good, clutch hits to win those games.

Defense has to improve. Today was horrid.

Aside from two big homers, and the 11th the other night, situational hitting still sucks.

I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run.

The 'pen, well, what can be said that has not already been said? Come back soon, Matt and J.J. Despite his trip-ups recently, kudos to Bobby for overall doing a good enough job the past week when being called on excessively.

That's it - let's enjoy the day off and kick Boston's ass out of the wild card race.

oeo
09-01-2010, 03:08 PM
Cabrera, Hamilton, and a few others, unfortunately, might thwart that.

As good as Cabrera has been, he shouldn't finish ahead of Konerko on a third place team. Dye had a better year than Morneau in 2006, Sox finished in third place, though.

JB98
09-01-2010, 03:08 PM
I heart giving up on this team in the 5th inning.

The key was getting the no-name pitcher outta there. The Sox just can't solve these rookies when they face them for the first time.

This is the kind of game, though, that you can bring up next time posters accuse the team of "having no heart." You can also bring this one up next time someone claims that "Ozzie has lost the team."

I'm not sure the Sox are good enough to win this thing. But they are fighting like hell with what they have.

hi im skot
09-01-2010, 03:08 PM
So, my take on this series:

First and foremost, a sweep is always awesome, against any team. Ecstatic with three wins. Happy we have another great bat in the middle of the order. 29 more like that, and I really like our chances! :D:

BUT, man, was this series ugly. That easily could have been three losses. Great resolve by the team to hang in there and some good, clutch hits to win those games.

Defense has to improve. Today was horrid.

Aside from two big homers, and the 11th the other night, situational hitting still sucks.

I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run.

The 'pen, well, what can be said that has not already been said? Come back soon, Matt and J.J. Despite his trip-ups recently, kudos to Bobby for overall doing a good enough job the past week when being called on excessively.

That's it - let's enjoy the day off and kick Boston's ass out of the wild card race.

Agree with everything here.

ilsox7
09-01-2010, 03:09 PM
Who in the front office thought Teahen could play third? My God! When was the last time we had a nice easy 1,2,3 ninth inning?

In his defense, he made 2 really nice plays in this game. Then blew a routine throw.

soxinem1
09-01-2010, 03:09 PM
I swear... it felt like some people were WILLING them to lose. PK... what a player! Put him on the wall NOW.

I'll settle for a nice extension first.:smile:

TheOldRoman
09-01-2010, 03:11 PM
We're coming for you, Minnesota.So you can run and tell that, homeboys.

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 03:11 PM
These last two wins were so critical considering:

1. Sox had no bullpen available.
2. Sox had no Gordo available,which means Omar at second,and Teahen at third...scary.
3. Freddie goes out with a stiff back.
4. No Manny til today.

Good news:

1. Sept callups are here to help in the bullpen and on the basepaths.
2. Gordo will return by Friday.
3. Thornton will return by Friday.

Sox could have easily lost all three of these games,and would be dead.
But, they sucked it up, and found a way to win all three.
Now, pressure on Twins tonite vs a hot pitcher in Scherzer.

If the Red Sox lose a couple more to Baltimore,they could be dead by the weekend...now we just need that hurricane to turn east,and leave Boston alone....christ, like the Dead once sang...''we need a miracle,everyday!''

happydude
09-01-2010, 03:11 PM
I swear... it felt like some people were WILLING them to lose. PK... what a player! Put him on the wall NOW.

He'll get there. Quietly, he's had an excellent year and, overall, an outstanding career. I don't know how much longer he can perform at a high level but he seems a shoo in to retire with 450 homers or better.

TheOldRoman
09-01-2010, 03:13 PM
I'm following along at work. What happened on Teahen's misplay in the ninth and the Sox' other errors?

guillensdisciple
09-01-2010, 03:13 PM
So you can run and tell that, homeboys.


We gonna find you, we gonna find you.

You snapped.

SoxFan1979
09-01-2010, 03:16 PM
PAULIE PAULIE PAULIE
:bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance:

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm following along at work. What happened on Teahen's misplay in the ninth and the Sox' other errors?


Andruw threw to homeplate and throw got away from Ramon,no backup by Freddy so runner advanced...error on Andruw.

Ramon threw out a runner trying to steal but runner spiked Alexei and he dropped it. Scorer had it as an out,and error on Alexei....weird.

Teahen fielded a ground ball with two on...stepped on third,threw high to first...no error,but should have been a double play to end the game.

soxinem1
09-01-2010, 03:16 PM
I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run.

Had me scratching my head big time.

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 03:17 PM
Had me scratching my head big time.


Omar was on his own on this play...thought he could beat out a hit...thought wrong.:o:

JB98
09-01-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm following along at work. What happened on Teahen's misplay in the ninth and the Sox' other errors?

I'll describe Teahen's misplay for you. First and second, one out. Grounder taking Teahen right to the bag. He steps on third for the force and has all day to throw Cabrera out at first. Instead, he throws wide of the bag to the home plate side. Konerko tried to tag Cabrera coming by, but Cabrera wisely slid under it. He was safe and the game was extended.

guillensdisciple
09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
Psychologically, signing Manny might have to do with our recent success. When your management wants to win it all, the team starts believing too.

oeo
09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
So, my take on this series:

First and foremost, a sweep is always awesome, against any team. Ecstatic with three wins. Happy we have another great bat in the middle of the order. 29 more like that, and I really like our chances! :D:

BUT, man, was this series ugly. That easily could have been three losses. Great resolve by the team to hang in there and some good, clutch hits to win those games.

Defense has to improve. Today was horrid.

Aside from two big homers, and the 11th the other night, situational hitting still sucks.

I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run.

The 'pen, well, what can be said that has not already been said? Come back soon, Matt and J.J. Despite his trip-ups recently, kudos to Bobby for overall doing a good enough job the past week when being called on excessively.

That's it - let's enjoy the day off and kick Boston's ass out of the wild card race.

Ozzie has certainly made some questionable bunt attempts, but I still don't see him calling for that bunt. I think he was trying for a base hit, he just put a little too much juice on it. And something tells me Nix would have thrown that ball away when he was with us, that was a good play.

khan
09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
Color me both impressed AND shocked. I simply did not believe that this team had it in them to come from behind.


Also, although Sale did acquit himself well today, I notice that he's not as efficient as he could be. That is to say, he tends to run up his pitch counts a bit too much for my liking. [A minor issue, I'll grant you.] But I don't think he's quite ready to take on a more important role in this team-yet.

BadBobbyJenks
09-01-2010, 03:20 PM
Manny on deck again for the game winning 3 run homer. Pure fear I tells you.

2-0 in the Manny era.

Chez
09-01-2010, 03:21 PM
It's September. Style points don't matter anymore -- just wins. Even ugly wins.

kufram
09-01-2010, 03:21 PM
We've had some great defense this year.... just some bad games. We've had some great starting pitching this year... and we've had some bad times with it. Our bullpen has been fantastic... and now decimated. The hitting took two months to show up... and now is going strong.

If these things come to together now.... we'll be tough to beat.

oeo
09-01-2010, 03:22 PM
Psychologically, signing Manny might have to do with our recent success. When your management wants to win it all, the team starts believing too.

Well, not to mention, Manny hitting behind Konerko >>>>>> Quentin hitting behind Konerko. Exactly the reason I wanted Manny hitting behind Paulie.

LITTLE NELL
09-01-2010, 03:22 PM
I swear... it felt like some people were WILLING them to lose. PK... what a player! Put him on the wall NOW.

Damn straight, he's on the wall.

TheVulture
09-01-2010, 03:23 PM
Psychologically, signing Manny might have to do with our recent success. When your management wants to win it all, the team starts believing too.

Steve Perry hasn't stopped believing.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/MotivationalStevePerry.jpg

KMcMahon817
09-01-2010, 03:26 PM
Much needed W. It sure looked bleak in the middle innings, but the Sox found a way to get runners, and Paulie came through like he has all year.

This is the type of come from behind game that can send a team on a huge tear. Let's do it.

KMcMahon817
09-01-2010, 03:27 PM
Color me both impressed AND shocked. I simply did not believe that this team had it in them to come from behind.


Also, although Sale did acquit himself well today, I notice that he's not as efficient as he could be. That is to say, he tends to run up his pitch counts a bit too much for my liking. [A minor issue, I'll grant you.] But I don't think he's quite ready to take on a more important role in this team-yet.

That's fine. He is 21.

WhiteSox1989
09-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Steve Perry hasn't stopped believing.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/MotivationalStevePerry.jpg
:thumbsup:

palehozenychicty
09-01-2010, 03:31 PM
I think just having Manny around is going to help this team. He still commands the opposition's respect if healthy. Teams have won with him around as well, so let's see.

delben91
09-01-2010, 03:33 PM
Steve Perry hasn't stopped believing.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/MotivationalStevePerry.jpg

He's consistent, I'll give him that.

Chez
09-01-2010, 03:34 PM
With the return of Manny and the arrival of Earl, it's gonna be a wild weekend in Boston.

hawkjt
09-01-2010, 03:36 PM
With the return of Manny and the arrival of Earl, it's gonna be a wild weekend in Boston.


OK...Manny vs Earl...who is the greater force of nature?

Manny 158 Earl 3. Da Manny!!

harwar
09-01-2010, 03:37 PM
So apparently all we had to do all year was dress up Ramon Castro like Manny Ramirez and put him on deck late in the game .. these games are not helping my blood pressure any .. Paulie is amazing ..

GlassSox
09-01-2010, 03:37 PM
So, my take on this series:

First and foremost, a sweep is always awesome, against any team. Ecstatic with three wins. Happy we have another great bat in the middle of the order. 29 more like that, and I really like our chances! :D:

BUT, man, was this series ugly. That easily could have been three losses. Great resolve by the team to hang in there and some good, clutch hits to win those games.

Defense has to improve. Today was horrid.

Aside from two big homers, and the 11th the other night, situational hitting still sucks.

I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run.

The 'pen, well, what can be said that has not already been said? Come back soon, Matt and J.J. Despite his trip-ups recently, kudos to Bobby for overall doing a good enough job the past week when being called on excessively.

That's it - let's enjoy the day off and kick Boston's ass out of the wild card race.

:thumbsup: especially in regards to the bunting and I am also concerned about all of the unsuccessful steal attempts.

TDog
09-01-2010, 03:40 PM
:scratch:

Why not? He gets outs. The other guys, namely our alleged CLOSER, don't.

Sale was in the game because Jenks pitched the last three days, coming into the game, getting one out last night after getting out of eighth-inning jams created by Sale and Santos the previous two days. Jenks pitched last night only because they needed him to get the last out, Sale being more iffy and not warming up because he had pitched the night before. Thornton and Putz were unavailable today. That left Sale.

Today sale threw more balls than strikes. Part of it must have been the pressure of closing out a win. Part of it was the Indians being disciplined enough not to swing at his high-90s fast ball when it was out of the strike zone. He should have been out of the inning with a doubleplay after the two walks, but if Jenks had pitched that inning, people would have been complaining that the Sox need a new closer.

It's possible the control problems were a matter of nerves and the White Sox have another pitcher they can go to to close games, but he hardly showed he can be more successful in getting outs in a closing role.

This was an outstanding win. Manny Ramirez didn't do much to contribute, but if having him on deck behind Konerko had anything to do with the game winning three-run homer by Konerko (as it may have had something to do with Pierzynski's game-winning three-run homer last night), he is earning his salary.

Manny Ramirez may be the best on-deck hitter in baseball, especially after the seventh inning. Alexei Ramirez represented today as well.

The Indians played a hard game and played to win, scoring their first two runs because stolen bases, and early on the Sox couldn't do anything offensively despite having Manny Ramirez in the lineup. But in the end it was a great win.

Konerko is having an incredible season. I think that's 14 home runs from the seventh inning on. He is having an MVP season, although a few other American Leaguers are having MVP seasons as well. But if Rios has a strong September, Manny Ramirez does what he can do and assures Konerko sees strikes, the Sox could be primed for a pennant drive.

nccwsfan
09-01-2010, 03:49 PM
Cabrera, Hamilton, and a few others, unfortunately, might thwart that.

PK should be in the MVP conversation every day from here on out. Cabrera was instrumental in getting the Tigers to 3rd place, so no IMO he shouldn't be in the mix. Hamilton is a different story...

soxnut1018
09-01-2010, 03:54 PM
PK should be in the MVP conversation every day from here on out. Cabrera was instrumental in getting the Tigers to 3rd place, so no IMO he shouldn't be in the mix. Hamilton is a different story...

Cano anyone?

Chez
09-01-2010, 03:58 PM
Cano anyone?

He's gotta be in the discussion. I think Delmon Young (and it hurts me to say his name), should be in the discussion too.

oeo
09-01-2010, 04:00 PM
He's gotta be in the discussion I think Delmon Young (and it hurts me to say his name), should be in the discussion too.

Young is having a good year at 24 and shows a lot of promise for maybe being a future MVP. This year? No way, those numbers are not MVP worthy.

Dan H
09-01-2010, 04:02 PM
Not enough can be said about Paul Konerko. If the Sox can just get through this series with Boston, they have a real shot. But that series looks to be tough. Anyway, I will just enjoy this series and hope this defense tightens up. Sloppy play will catch up with you especially against the good teams.

Crooked Number
09-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Paulie with a heroic blast to keep us in the hunt. Freddy's injury disconcerting. The lead off double bunt call in the 6th was definitely a head scratcher. However, we have seen it all season so i can't say i wasn't surprised. It's interesting that the first two clubs we play in the Manny era is CLE and BOS. It would be great if he can launch a few over the monster.

Chez
09-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Young is having a good year at 24 and shows a lot of promise for maybe being a future MVP. This year? No way, those numbers are not MVP worthy.

Oh, I agree with you. Hamilton should win it. But if the season ended today, Young deserves to be in the Top 6 or 7.

TDog
09-01-2010, 04:04 PM
...
I have not been one of the many rampaging against Ozzie's bunting decisions, and I agreed with the Castro bunt in the 8th, but the Vizquel bunt - if it was a called sacrifice and not his own decision to bunt for a single - was just ridiculous. Pierre on 2nd and nobody out with Vizquel, Rios, Konerko coming up? I'll take the three chances at a hit (or, at least, Vizquel pulling it and moving Pierre up anyway) any day of the week when DOWN 4-1. If they were up 4-1, I *might* understand it a bit better. But down? Senseless. Need a big inning, not one measly run. ...

Vizquel should not have been credited with a sacrifice. He was obviously bunting for a hit, perhaps believing he saw the third baseman playing deep. Putting pressure on the Indians defense and putting two on for Rios and Konerko and Manny Ramirez was the objective. The call to bunt for a hit doesn't come from the bench.

For that matter, most of the runners caught stealing this year were going on their own. There have been a few missed hit-and-run plays, but rarely do players get steal signs anymore.

soxinem1
09-01-2010, 04:05 PM
PK should be in the MVP conversation every day from here on out. Cabrera was instrumental in getting the Tigers to 3rd place, so no IMO he shouldn't be in the mix. Hamilton is a different story...

Cabrera is having a year similar to Andre Dawson's 1987 MVP season, excpet BA wise. That team finished last.

Young is having a good year at 24 and shows a lot of promise for maybe being a future MVP. This year? No way, those numbers are not MVP worthy.

Kirk Gibson in 1989, anyone? Stats do not always win out.

Cano will get very strong consideration as well, as he should.

ChiSoxGirl
09-01-2010, 04:08 PM
The key was getting the no-name pitcher outta there. The Sox just can't solve these rookies when they face them for the first time.

This is the kind of game, though, that you can bring up next time posters accuse the team of "having no heart." You can also bring this one up next time someone claims that "Ozzie has lost the team."

I'm not sure the Sox are good enough to win this thing. But they are fighting like hell with what they have.

They sure are! When school ended for me on June 9, this team was left for dead and I feared a ten game losing streak when I went to San Diego. Instead, they didn't lose a single game while I was gone. Though the Sox cooled off after the All-Star Break and now the Twins are the team playing .800+ ball, the Sox are STILL in the hunt and the race isn't over. It'd be nice if Detroit could help us out tonight....

I missed most of the game because of classes, but was pleasantly surprised to hear that they not only plated four in the 8th, but added an insurance run in the 9th and actually held on to that lead. A sweep is difficult to accomplish, regardless of how bad your opponent is, and the Sox did just that. It's September and every win counts, regardless of how ugly. The Sox need to enjoy the off day tomorrow, relax, and rest up for the series in Boston. Hear that, bullpen?! REST UP; we need you!

guillensdisciple
09-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Another honorable mention to Pena for 3 innings pitched.

jdm2662
09-01-2010, 04:17 PM
The key was getting the no-name pitcher outta there. The Sox just can't solve these rookies when they face them for the first time.

This is the kind of game, though, that you can bring up next time posters accuse the team of "having no heart." You can also bring this one up next time someone claims that "Ozzie has lost the team."

I'm not sure the Sox are good enough to win this thing. But they are fighting like hell with what they have.

This team may not be good enough to win the division and people can argue that. However, anyone that says this team doesn't care or lacks heart has no clue what they are talking about. They are fighting their asses off. Sometimes no matter how much you fight and try, it's simply not enough. To say that are not trying or not caring is moronic.

voodoochile
09-01-2010, 05:04 PM
Steve Perry hasn't stopped believing.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/MotivationalStevePerry.jpg

Is he flipping the Twinkies the bird in that picture? :D:

What a win. I admit I was only half paying attention and missed the pitching change before Rios' AB. I saw him walk and then the next time I looked up Paulie was rounding first in a home run trot. I was very happy.

:sweep:

:soxwin:

:)

kevingrt
09-01-2010, 05:14 PM
How the hell did we sweep that series? We should have just as easily gotten swept. Win is a win I guess.

GoGoCrede
09-01-2010, 05:47 PM
Thrilled - a sweep is always wonderful. Wish I could have watched it live, but I recorded it.

GoGoCrede
09-01-2010, 05:48 PM
Exactly. Reading the gamethread was priceless. Someone even went as far as congratulating the Twins on winning the division. :rolleyes:

That should make for some good bathroom reading later. :) Of course, I didn't watch and don't know how dire it was.

TDog
09-01-2010, 05:53 PM
Cabrera is having a year similar to Andre Dawson's 1987 MVP season, excpet BA wise. That team finished last. (emphasis added) ...

When I saw this, I was taken back in time to the old pre-Rios centerfield days. Then I realized I was taking the words out of context.

You can't compare MVPs from season to season, especially statistically. If the year Dawson had won his MVP award there were contending hitters having the sorts of years that some American League hitters playing for contending teams are having this season, he wouldn't have been voted MVP. Comparing Cabrera to Dawson is taking the MVP award out of context.

soxlady8
09-01-2010, 05:56 PM
-could not catch the game as it was my first day back at work and was swamped w meetings and then getting my classroom moved from upstairs to downstairs :(

However, I just read over this thread and it sounded like a doozy of a game with the Sox being the winners in the end.

Paulie just keeps gettin' better !!

TomBradley72
09-01-2010, 05:59 PM
We lose Thornton, Putz, Threets, Beckham and Garcia to injuries, and we get a sweep....I think this team has alot of fight and alot of heart. :gulp:

OmahaSoxFan
09-01-2010, 06:01 PM
Missed the game day, due to work, but from what I've read and seen... nice comeback win by the Sox today. Its nice to see that Manny being on-deck led to another big bomb (by PK) and that Chris Sale came in to get the save (despite walking two guys and having to battle).

This team still has some major issues in the bullpen, hopefully Matt gets back this weekend and helps the bullpen. The Sox need him healthy to be ready for any kind of stretch run at the Twinkies...

Now, let's go Tigers!

OmahaSoxFan
09-01-2010, 06:02 PM
We lose Thornton, Putz, Threets, Beckham and Garcia to injuries, and we get a sweep....I think this team has alot of fight and alot of heart. :gulp:

Sweeping the Indians is never easy, especially in Cleveland... it seems like the worse the Indians are, the more they give us problems. Not to say these three games could have completely gone the other way though, but its nice to see the Sox battle through those four injuries, the bullpen problems, and still manage a sweep on the road... if the Sox go on a big run to end the season, we will have to look back on this series as being where the Sox "manned up" and swept a pesky division foe.

Rdy2PlayBall
09-01-2010, 06:03 PM
We lose Thornton, Putz, Threets, Beckham and Garcia to injuries, and we get a sweep....I think this team has alot of fight and alot of heart. :gulp:Thank God the better of those three will be back very soon. Everything could come back together is Putz and Thronton come make in good shape. They carried the bullpen for a while.

wassagstdu
09-01-2010, 06:07 PM
Psychologically, signing Manny might have to do with our recent success. When your management wants to win it all, the team starts believing too.
Right you are. From this point on, everything has to do with Manny. No, From this point on everything has to do with Manny.

kittle42
09-01-2010, 06:13 PM
Right you are. From this point on, everything has to do with Manny. No, From this point on everything has to do with Manny.

Whether you like the move or not as it relates to whom was acquired, I will agree that it must be nice for the team to know management thinks a division championship is within reach when you are 4 games out on 8/31.

nccwsfan
09-01-2010, 06:15 PM
Cano anyone?

Hamilton, Cano, PK, Mauer stand out as the best players on teams trying to make a postseason run. Cabrera and Bautista have had great seasons, but helping your team to 3rd or 4th place should eliminate you from MVP consideration. Most Outstanding Player and Most Valuable Player are two different things in my view.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-01-2010, 06:43 PM
How the hell did we sweep that series? We should have just as easily gotten swept. Win is a win I guess.

Well, didn't we lose two of three to the Tigers while having the lead in the 8th or later in both of those losses?

It's an equalizer.

thomas35forever
09-01-2010, 07:30 PM
Great comeback, great series. Say what you will about this offense, but they sure are clutch.

SCCWS
09-01-2010, 08:54 PM
We lose Thornton, Putz, Threets, Beckham and Garcia to injuries, and we get a sweep....I think this team has alot of fight and alot of heart. :gulp:


What is status of Beckham for Boston series??

JB98
09-01-2010, 09:12 PM
What is status of Beckham for Boston series??

Gordon was still having trouble gripping his bat today, but he thinks he can play Friday.

BoysMom3
09-01-2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks for that today, Paulie. Made my day!

tstrike2000
09-01-2010, 10:58 PM
I'm hoping Beckham's healthy enough to play so there's that much less of a chance we have to continue seeing Teahen shortarm his throws 3 feet over Paulie's head.

SBSoxFan
09-01-2010, 11:51 PM
I'll describe Teahen's misplay for you. First and second, one out. Grounder taking Teahen right to the bag. He steps on third for the force and has all day to throw Cabrera out at first. Instead, he throws wide of the bag to the home plate side. Konerko tried to tag Cabrera coming by, but Cabrera wisely slid under it. He was safe and the game was extended.

Why didn't Konerko tag Cabrera afterward? Cabrera clearly made a move towards second and was standing off the bag for a couple seconds. It looked like Paulie could have just walked up to him and tagged him out, game over. Instead, it looked like Paulie was much more concerned about the runner at third (who was already out). :scratch:

slavko
09-01-2010, 11:58 PM
Why didn't Konerko tag Cabrera afterward? Cabrera clearly made a move towards second and was standing off the bag for a couple seconds. It looked like Paulie could have just walked up to him and tagged him out, game over. Instead, it looked like Paulie was much more concerned about the runner at third (who was already out). :scratch:

He slid inside the baseline and tagged the bag. He never made a move toward second. To my eyes anyway. How and why could he make a move toward second if he was lying on the ground?

SBSoxFan
09-02-2010, 12:03 AM
He slid inside the baseline and tagged the bag. He never made a move toward second. To my eyes anyway. How and why could he make a move toward second if he was lying on the ground?

Because he got up? I don't know if there's a replay online. I saw the replay several times tonight on tv, and, after the slide and touch of first base, the runner is standing about 2 steps to the right of first base for what seemed like a couple of seconds while Paulie still had the ball.

johnnyg83
09-02-2010, 12:15 AM
I thought he was in play too. He was lying in the field, off the base, off the 1st base line. I don't know if there are exceptions for momentum when you slide, but it would be strange to me if indeed there was.

voodoochile
09-02-2010, 01:40 AM
I thought he was in play too. He was lying in the field, off the base, off the 1st base line. I don't know if there are exceptions for momentum when you slide, but it would be strange to me if indeed there was.

I believe this is a discretionary call. The runner has to show "intent" to make the move. As little as a half step toward second will render you fair game so long as it's intentional. I've seen guys thrown out making that mistake when a ball gets by but is well backed up and a quick throw is made. The runner was to he 2B side of 1B but he clearly made no move toward second (which would have been odd with a man on second anyway). It's not just momentum, there is a need to actively make a move toward advancing. He didn't.

TDog
09-02-2010, 02:54 AM
I believe this is a discretionary call. The runner has to show "intent" to make the move. As little as a half step toward second will render you fair game so long as it's intentional. I've seen guys thrown out making that mistake when a ball gets by but is well backed up and a quick throw is made. The runner was to he 2B side of 1B but he clearly made no move toward second (which would have been odd with a man on second anyway). It's not just momentum, there is a need to actively make a move toward advancing. He didn't.

You are right. It's a matter of the runner intending to try to advance rather than simply turning in the direction of second or having his momentum carry him toward second. This is actually covered in umpire schools. Konerko caught the throw and the runner slid into the base. I can't imagine the umpire ruling the runner intended to attempt to advance to second without getting up off the ground after the first baseman failed to tag him.

soxinem1
09-02-2010, 07:53 AM
Why didn't Konerko tag Cabrera afterward? Cabrera clearly made a move towards second and was standing off the bag for a couple seconds. It looked like Paulie could have just walked up to him and tagged him out, game over. Instead, it looked like Paulie was much more concerned about the runner at third (who was already out). :scratch:

Because with Teahen's lack of defensive skills, he probably thought the play was missed at 3B as well.

October26
09-02-2010, 08:24 AM
It has been awhile since I could pull out my broom, so here it is! :D: Yay!


:sweep
I've been been working lots of overtime lately so not been on WSI too much. I was able to see the replay of yesterday's game on Comcast last night. Great sweep by our Sox of the Indians in Cleveland! Outstanding 8th and 9th innings in yesterday's game, although as others have said, it's never easy. PAULIE - WOW! Am still super excited this morning about yesterday's White Sox winner! :bandance: Rest up today and be ready to play in beantown tomorrow, boys!

kufram
09-02-2010, 08:55 AM
Hamilton, Cano, PK, Mauer stand out as the best players on teams trying to make a postseason run. Cabrera and Bautista have had great seasons, but helping your team to 3rd or 4th place should eliminate you from MVP consideration. Most Outstanding Player and Most Valuable Player are two different things in my view.


I think it has become necessary to be on a postseason team to win the MVP but that is sad. A player should be able to win MVP no matter what team he is on. Obviously, it will usually go to a contender because there are so many of them now. Not all great players are on great teams. In fact being on a great team makes it easier to get good rbi numbers, for example.

PK has been more valuable to us than Mauer to Minn, it could be argued.

soltrain21
09-02-2010, 09:25 AM
I think it has become necessary to be on a postseason team to win the MVP but that is sad. A player should be able to win MVP no matter what team he is on. Obviously, it will usually go to a contender because there are so many of them now. Not all great players are on great teams. In fact being on a great team makes it easier to get good rbi numbers, for example.

PK has been more valuable to us than Mauer to Minn, it could be argued.

Well, then change the title to Most OUTSTANDING Player, then.

LongLiveFisk
09-02-2010, 10:01 AM
Well, then change the title to Most OUTSTANDING Player, then.

I've said that for years. :dunno:

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 10:05 AM
A player can absolutely be the "most valuable" and be on a team that does not reach the postseason. No name change needed.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 10:08 AM
A player can absolutely be the "most valuable" and be on a team that does not reach the postseason. No name change needed.

So then you at least agree with the wrinkle that the award doesn't neccessarily have to go to the best player in the league, right?

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 10:30 AM
So then you at least agree with the wrinkle that the award doesn't neccessarily have to go to the best player in the league, right?
I think the best player is the one that has the most value. So, no.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 10:32 AM
I think the best player is the one that has the most value. So, no.

But that doesn't make any sense, value is inherently relative to a team's performance, the Sox would be absolutely dead right now without the season Konerko's had. Robinson Cano may be having a better statistical campaign, but do you think the Yankees would be really hurting without his services?

slavko
09-02-2010, 11:04 AM
You are right. It's a matter of the runner intending to try to advance rather than simply turning in the direction of second or having his momentum carry him toward second. This is actually covered in umpire schools. Konerko caught the throw and the runner slid into the base. I can't imagine the umpire ruling the runner intended to attempt to advance to second without getting up off the ground after the first baseman failed to tag him.

That's the key. Not being inside the baseline, but making a move toward second.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 11:07 AM
But that doesn't make any sense, value is inherently relative to a team's performance, the Sox would be absolutely dead right now without the season Konerko's had. Robinson Cano may be having a better statistical campaign, but do you think the Yankees would be really hurting without his services?
I disagree with anything that turns an individual award into a contest of "hey, who has the most mediocre supporting cast?"

Value does not need to be tied to a team's performance. So again, I disagree with the argument on a pretty basic level.

kufram
09-02-2010, 11:28 AM
Well, then change the title to Most OUTSTANDING Player, then.


Why? Didn't Dick Allen deserve the MVP in '72? Willy Mays? Roberto Clemente? The player that does the most for his team should get the reward. I suppose you could just give it to the player that earns the most money each year if you're stuck on the word valuable. This is an individual reward, not a team award.

I'm not going to argue about it because I don't have any real issues about anyone who has won it, but limiting it to playoff contenders only is against the spirit of the award in my opinion.

downstairs
09-02-2010, 01:24 PM
Well, then change the title to Most OUTSTANDING Player, then.

Or just "player of the year". The whole "MVP" thing has always bugged me. Why make it such a complicated thing? Why make it something people debate the actual meaning of?

If it really means "the player most valuable to his team"... why do I care? If you really think about it, that's a very strange thing to make a big deal out of.

But lets face it- everyone thinks of "MVP" as "player of the year" or "best player".

kufram
09-02-2010, 01:35 PM
A player can absolutely be the "most valuable" and be on a team that does not reach the postseason. No name change needed.


Exactly. This isn't the player that is worth the most money to his team... but is the most valuable on the field. Tough to judge... too bad the writers get to do it, but I think they try to do the best they can.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Exactly. This isn't the player that is worth the most money to his team... but is the most valuable on the field. Tough to judge... too bad the writers get to do it, but I think they try to do the best they can.

It has nothing to do with money. Value, by definition, is subjective. If the award was simply intended to go to the best player, then it would have been named "Best Player," or "Most Outstanding Player." The fact that it was deliberately named Most Valuable Player means that the award is simply not to the best player in the game but to the player whose presence has meant the most to his team.

Chez
09-02-2010, 02:01 PM
It has nothing to do with money. Value, by definition, is subjective. If the award was simply intended to go to the best player, then it would have been named "Best Player," or "Most Outstanding Player." The fact that it was deliberately named Most Valuable Player means that the award is simply not to the best player in the game but to the player whose presence has meant the most to his team.

Exactly right. The fact that other groups (e.g. The Sporting News) have a "Player of the Year" award supports your argument.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 03:15 PM
Exactly right. The fact that other groups (e.g. The Sporting News) have a "Player of the Year" award supports your argument.
If that's your interpretation, sure. It's stupid. Cano should not be penalized.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 03:21 PM
If that's your interpretation, sure. It's stupid. Cano should not be penalized.

How, exactly, is Cano being penalized? No one is saying he's not having a great year, but if you're looking at VALUE there's absolutely no way any rational person could conclude that Cano's been as valuable to the Yankees as Konerko has been to the Sox or Hamilton has been to the Rangers. Remove the latter two from their teams and they're both much worse for it. Remove Cano from the Yankees and, maybe they're not in a dogfight with the Rays for the AL East, but they're certainly in the discussion for the play-offs.

It's not an "intrepretation." I simply know how to use a dictionary.

oeo
09-02-2010, 03:23 PM
A player can absolutely be the "most valuable" and be on a team that does not reach the postseason. No name change needed.

The voters don't agree with this and neither do I. If they did, Jermaine Dye would have an MVP to go with his World Series MVP. At the very least you need to be close to the postseason. If you're 15 games out of first place, how valuable are you really?

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 03:46 PM
The voters don't agree with this and neither do I. If they did, Jermaine Dye would have an MVP to go with his World Series MVP. At the very least you need to be close to the postseason. If you're 15 games out of first place, how valuable are you really?
It's case-by-case. You're pretty damn valuable if you're Robinson Cano or Josh Hamilton, and if one of them was on the Orioles, they should still be in contention.

How, exactly, is Cano being penalized? No one is saying he's not having a great year, but if you're looking at VALUE there's absolutely no way any rational person could conclude that Cano's been as valuable to the Yankees as Konerko has been to the Sox or Hamilton has been to the Rangers. Remove the latter two from their teams and they're both much worse for it. Remove Cano from the Yankees and, maybe they're not in a dogfight with the Rays for the AL East, but they're certainly in the discussion for the play-offs.

It's not an "intrepretation." I simply know how to use a dictionary.
You want value to be tied to the team, i.e. Konerko's value to the White Sox. Value, however, does not need to be related to the team. The most valuable player is not the one who has meant the most to his team, it is the player who has the most value in general. Cano, despite the supporting cast, being a middle infielder, has been more valuable than Paul Konerko -- largely because he's been better. Value is tied to individual -- not team -- performance.

I simply know how to use my brain.

soltrain21
09-02-2010, 03:55 PM
It's case-by-case. You're pretty damn valuable if you're Robinson Cano or Josh Hamilton, and if one of them was on the Orioles, they should still be in contention.


You want value to be tied to the team, i.e. Konerko's value to the White Sox. Value, however, does not need to be related to the team. The most valuable player is not the one who has meant the most to his team, it is the player who has the most value in general. Cano, despite the supporting cast, being a middle infielder, has been more valuable than Paul Konerko -- largely because he's been better. Value is tied to individual -- not team -- performance.

I simply know how to use my brain.

Get over yourself.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 03:56 PM
Get over yourself.
Oh, please. It was a dig at Dubs for his "I know how to use a dictionary" bull****. It wasn't serious.

Resume having the same boring argument we have every September.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 03:57 PM
You want value to be tied to the team, i.e. Konerko's value to the White Sox. Value, however, does not need to be related to the team. The most valuable player is not the one who has meant the most to his team, it is the player who has the most value in general. Cano, despite the supporting cast, being a middle infielder, has been more valuable than Paul Konerko -- largely because he's been better. Value is tied to individual -- not team -- performance.

You honestly believe Cano doesn't reap the benefits of hitting in that lineup?

kobo
09-02-2010, 04:02 PM
The voters don't agree with this and neither do I. If they did, Jermaine Dye would have an MVP to go with his World Series MVP. At the very least you need to be close to the postseason. If you're 15 games out of first place, how valuable are you really?

Explain then how Andre Dawson was MVP in 87.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 04:02 PM
You honestly believe Cano doesn't reap the benefits of hitting in that lineup?
I think that would be a different argument altogether. Sure, he probably benefits, but I think a second baseman with his numbers is far and away the leading candidate.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 04:04 PM
Explain then how Andre Dawson was MVP in 87.

That was like 23 years ago. There appears to have been a dramatic shift in the way voters vote for the MVP.

doublem23
09-02-2010, 04:10 PM
I think that would be a different argument altogether. Sure, he probably benefits, but I think a second baseman with his numbers is far and away the leading candidate.

Well, no, not really since that's basically the entire thesis of my argument. I'm not saying Cano is bad, or even that he's not the best player in the league right now, but when you're talking about "value," I think that is definitely coorelated to a team's performance. Value (again, IMO) is not a concrete statistic where everyone starts at 0 on Opening Day and then accrues it as the season wears on, it's a very subjective intangible that's measured by how a player's individual performance has affected his team.

Again, Cano is a great player, I would trade Paulie for him straight up in 1/2 a heartbeat, but when you examine their value to their respective teams, the Sox would miss Konerko a ton more than the Yankees would miss Cano.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 04:15 PM
Well, no, not really since that's basically the entire thesis of my argument. I'm not saying Cano is bad, or even that he's not the best player in the league right now, but when you're talking about "value," I think that is definitely coorelated to a team's performance. Value (again, IMO) is not a concrete statistic where everyone starts at 0 on Opening Day and then accrues it as the season wears on, it's a very subjective intangible that's measured by how a player's individual performance has affected his team.

Again, Cano is a great player, I would trade Paulie for him straight up in 1/2 a heartbeat, but when you examine their value to their respective teams, the Sox would miss Konerko a ton more than the Yankees would miss Cano.
And the basis of my argument is that I'm not willing to base an award on which candidate has the most mediocre supporting cast.

I don't even know when this became the argument. Cabrera can't win it because his team is too bad -- neither can Bautista. Cano can't win it because his team is too good. But then there's Paulie, right in the middle, with a team just good enough to be 4 games back at the beginning of September, but not good enough to be a sure thing for the playoffs. So is that what the award is about? Who has the most pedestrian players batting around them?

doublem23
09-02-2010, 04:20 PM
And the basis of my argument is that I'm not willing to base an award on which candidate has the most mediocre supporting cast.

I don't even know when this became the argument. Cabrera can't win it because his team is too bad -- neither can Bautista. Cano can't win it because his team is too good. But then there's Paulie, right in the middle, with a team just good enough to be 4 games back at the beginning of September, but not good enough to be a sure thing for the playoffs. So is that what the award is about? Who has the most pedestrian players batting around them?

Well, no, if the Sox don't make the play-offs, I have no argument for Paulie. He's been a steady everyday player who has helped propel them to where they are, but he's not had such an impressive season he deserves the award today.

If I were to give the award to anyone today, the AL MVP would be Josh Hamilton.

voodoochile
09-02-2010, 04:21 PM
The voters don't agree with this and neither do I. If they did, Jermaine Dye would have an MVP to go with his World Series MVP. At the very least you need to be close to the postseason. If you're 15 games out of first place, how valuable are you really?
Andre Dawson won MVP for a last place flubbie squad. Just tossing that into the discussion...

oeo
09-02-2010, 04:38 PM
Andre Dawson won MVP for a last place flubbie squad. Just tossing that into the discussion...

And as was mentioned, that was 23 years ago. Things change.

I think Dye in 2006 is the greatest example of that. He was the best player in the AL that year, no doubt. Morneau finished in first place, Dye finished in third.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 04:45 PM
And as was mentioned, that was 23 years ago. Things change.

I think Dye in 2006 is the greatest example of that. He was the best player in the AL that year, no doubt.
Too bad they made him play defense. Even if we're considering bat-only, I think there's plenty of doubt he was the best player, with Hafner, Thome, Ortiz, and Ramirez having pretty great years at the dish.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 04:48 PM
Also, is Miguel Cabrera somehow less valuable than Konerko? (Question to OEO)

kufram
09-02-2010, 04:56 PM
You guys are all right. Konerko shouldn't win because he's surrounded by lesser players than Cano is and Cano shouldn't win it because he's surrounded by better players. I think Paulie is deserving because of his importance to the team, always the guy coming through when needed, much like TCQ a couple of years ago. Cano's numbers are indisputable. Hamilton may be the best choice because he's got some of both. I'm for Paulie, but I'm biased. Still, if he carries this team for 3-4 more weeks, why not him?

But there are players who come along on occasion, Dawson one of them, that transcend the performance and position of the team. Bonds and Sosa are two more but we now know WHY they transcended. Of course, players I named earlier were before the playoff era so it was different. Players then didn't so easily move to contending teams.

I would argue that it should still be possible for somebody from a Cleveland or KC to win it. Not likely, but possible. I would argue, also, that Cabrera is a great candidate. Doesn't matter that the Tigers faded due to injury.

oeo
09-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Also, is Miguel Cabrera somehow less valuable than Konerko? (Question to OEO)

I don't think Miguel Cabrera's season is as valuable as Konerko's because Cabrera is doing it for a team in third place and 12 games out of first place.

It's all your opinion of value. If you look at it in a vacuum, then yes, Cabrera is more valuable this year. Fact is, Cabrera's team isn't doing squat, so his efforts are almost wasted.

slavko
09-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Andre Dawson won MVP for a last place flubbie squad. Just tossing that into the discussion...

E. Banks did it twice. In a row. Long ago. But those teams were 5th of 8. That's practically Cubbie Heaven.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2010, 05:20 PM
I don't think Miguel Cabrera's season is as valuable as Konerko's because Cabrera is doing it for a team in third place and 12 games out of first place.

It's all your opinion of value. If you look at it in a vacuum, then yes, Cabrera is more valuable this year. Fact is, Cabrera's team isn't doing squat, so his efforts are almost wasted.
So what about Cano?

oeo
09-02-2010, 05:22 PM
So what about Cano?

What about Cano? Is he playing on a team that's not contending?

I hope you don't think I'm arguing that Konerko should win the MVP, because I'm not and never came anywhere close to saying that.

Chez
09-02-2010, 05:30 PM
Has the BBWAA ever published its criteria for what constitutes "most valuable?" I don't think so. As far as we know, the BBWAA has no criteria for what constitutes "most valuable." It's an inherently subjective term which engenders this kind of debate. Which, when kept in perspective, is kind of fun! Right?

SBSoxFan
09-02-2010, 09:32 PM
You are right. It's a matter of the runner intending to try to advance rather than simply turning in the direction of second or having his momentum carry him toward second. This is actually covered in umpire schools. Konerko caught the throw and the runner slid into the base. I can't imagine the umpire ruling the runner intended to attempt to advance to second without getting up off the ground after the first baseman failed to tag him.

If I recall the replay correctly, he did get up off the ground. I'd have to take your word about what's taught in umpiring school; however, you can't just meander towards second base and claim you had no "intent" to try to advance. What umpire would by that?

For what it's worth, Mully and Hanley mentioned the play on their morning show on the Score in Chicago this morning. Both agreed that the Sox would have had a valid claim that the runner showed intent to advance towards second base.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2010, 09:35 PM
Well, then change the title to Most OUTSTANDING Player, then.

Pitchers already have the Cy Young Award.

I think they ought to change the MVP to the "Hank Aaron Award" or "Babe Ruth Award" and give it to the best offensive player in each league.

In addition, I would have no problem creating a new "Ozzie Smith Award" and giving it to the best fielder in each league.

TDog
09-02-2010, 09:53 PM
If I recall the replay correctly, he did get up off the ground. I'd have to take your word about what's taught in umpiring school; however, you can't just meander towards second base and claim you had no "intent" to try to advance. What umpire would by that?

For what it's worth, Mully and Hanley mentioned the play on their morning show on the Score in Chicago this morning. Both agreed that the Sox would have had a valid claim that the runner showed intent to advance towards second base.

It is not uncommon for talk radio personalities to demonstrate their ignorance. There is no way a runner is going to make a move to second base with intent to advance that close to the base if he believe if the first baseman has just missed tagging him and continues to hold onto the ball. There is no way an umpire would call him out. The runner would have to believe the throw was errant, which wasn't the case because Konerko attempted to tag him on the ground.

Additionally, second base was occupied, and the runner there wasn't making a break for third. The he-made-the-turn argument in that situation only works on the playground.